RPN and co... (long, but read all please)
Jean-Yves Avenard
The more I read this newsgroup... The more it become ridiculous...
Yes RPN is better for calculation; we all (hp users) know that... It
requires less keystrokes etc.
But for gosh sake, stop saying some nonsense like:
"How can one expect to perform an operation on two operands with only
one operand inputted before the operation?"
In this case, let's rewrite every spoken language on earth.
Do you say: I'm going to eat
Or: I, to eat .. going to ..
In French:
Je vais aller manger
Je [ENTER] manger, aller ..
Just speak like that to your friends and see how they are looking at you
Come on... Let's be serious...
Okay, let's now try to answer to your questions:
For what I have seen so far is:
1-I hate the color
2-I hate the position of the ENTER key
3-Why did they put the / and the Z on the same key
4-Why do they use the same CPU
5-Why did they remove the IR
6-Why did they remove the extension port
Let's try to answer some questions...
1- Well, tastes and tastes.... Some may not like not, some will...
Unfortunately for some people that always want to be right, more people like
it than people who won't. Sometimes you have to accept that you're not the
only one on earth.
When I first looked at the design, I said, eurrk this doesn't look
professional, math is a serious business (just like some of you) ... But
after using it, I've started to like it...
And know, I like it a lot... It is different, looks cool and fit very well
in your hand.
2- How many people are left-handed, how many are right-handed?
Why would that be more convenient to be in the middle of the keyboard,
rather that on the bottom right corner? Because you're used to it?
How did you get use to it in the first place?
When you've started using a HP calculator who didn't think: I will never be
able to work with this calculator, but finally, after using it, you've
started to like it, because you were used to it...
Well, think a little bit again.... And try, just even try to imagine what
will be the difference at the end..
3-Why did they put the / and the Z on the same key
Well... That was a very difficult choice...
A short story..
As you know all, I'm an HP user for a long time, and if there's something I
really like about the HP keyboard is the keyboard in ALPHA mode...
What I like in the TI keyboard is the ability to use the direction key, even
if I'm in ALPHA mode... But what I hate, I really hate, is that when you are
in ALPHA mode, you don't have access to the numeric keypad. Which means that
when you type a text, or an expression, you must switch between ALPHA mode,
and numeric-mode..
If I had a choice, I would stick with the HP48 keyboard for sure... But ...
the direction key... That's annoying...
Before starting working for HP I used to work/play with my HP48 more than 6
hours a day... I had to change the batteries every week (just to give you an
idea...)
but when you type text, the fact that you must turn off the alpha mode to
use the direction key... very annoying..
And We had the possibility to work on a new keyboard.
First we've tried to have access to the soft-menu key (like the HP38G), even
if you are in Alpha mode but every time we came back to the numeric keypad
problem (not accessible in alpha mode).
The ENTER key was too large, and with all the new functionality of this
machine, 49 keys were not enough, we needed 51 ...
And if the ENTER key is not twice the size of a normal key, there is no
reason to let it just in the middle of the keyboard, all by himself..
So, after some months with different attempts, we came with the current
keyboard.
The fact that the / symbol was on the same location than the Z was a
problem.. We wanted this keyboard to be efficient in both ALPHA mode and
NON-ALPHA mode
When I say efficient, it means: you don't have to switch the ALPHA
indication more than one time per command line entry...
To deal with this / problem, when you are in ALPHA mode, you can have access
to the / by pressing RightShift + Z. One more key to press in this case...
But how many do you save on others?
On the main competitor, something I really hate, is that to have access to
some math functions, you must enter in a menu, then go in a sub menu, and in
a sub-menu again, and finally you get access to the command... And if you
want to have access to it again, same operation AGAIN!
The HP48 soft-menu are really good there, you select your menu and that's
it, it will stay there until you go in another menu...
But... The soft menus are not perfect for a beginner user... At most 5
letters can be displayed in the menu and no lowercase... That's annoying
don't you think?
Well, first, we've allowed the lowercase in the soft-key menu (like Java,
and the MetaKernel, but here we have full-control, so it's much more
integrated)
But the limitation at 5 letters, is still not perfect.
So we've decided to put a new option: the ability to select between
ChooseBox menus and softkey menus...
The first time you start this machine, by default, the menu are displayed
like ChooseBoxes.
ChooseBoxes can be very convenient: it was slow on the HP48, well we've
rewritten them so now it's extremely fast (we've even added a scroll bar)
First: you see more choices (up to 8) and you can have a shortcut by
pressing a number (like in the Windows menu).
But after a while, when you perfectly know this machine, you can turn off
the ChooseBoxes menu, and you use only softkeys...
I think that's the real strength of the HP49, the more you use it, the
fastest it will behave since you can customize EVERYTHING:
1-How you display the menu (chooseboxes, or soft menu)
2-the font you are using for the menu (small:4 by 6, or bigger: 6*6, 6*7,
6*8)
If you have a close look to the HP49 keyboard, you will see that you have
access to many different labels: calculus, algebra, trigonometry,
statistics, matrices, units, time, conversion, complex numbers, base,
exponential and logarithm, arithmetic, programs mode etc...
Well, on the HP49, there's no need to enter in menu, then sub-menu etc...
by pressing two keys (Left or Right Shift) + another key, you get access
directly to the sub menu YOU want...
Get lost in all these keys ? Never mind, the SYMBOLIC key is here for you
which contains all the symbolic math commands..
Press the CATALOG key, and you get access, in alphabetic order to ALL the
HP49 commands... It's a dynamic menu not a static one.. If you had a library
or a new Flash system Module (for the upgrades), the catalog will displays
EVERY commands, even the new one you've just added...
Direction keys:
Well, to be able to see a result or edit an object, to be able to visualize
it quickly and in an efficient way we've added many functions:
Page Up
Page Down
Page Left
Page Right
Max Up, left, down ,right etc...
We've also added some basic editor features like: COPY/PASTE/CUT etc...
Just image how powerful it is: You're in the Matrix Writer, you select a
part of your matrix, you switch to the Text Editor, and you PASTE your
matrix into the current command line.
Same within the Equation Writer, you can select sub-expression and paste
them wherever you want...
I strongly believe that there's NO other calculator one earth that will give
you these possibilities... It's flexible and extremely fast...
Look at the keyboard again, and think about it... Think about it twice...
And you will see that it has ALL the strengths of the HP48 keyboard plus
much more:
You get access to the function you want in the minimum keystrokes...
Like the HP48, you even have access to all the greek characters, the
localized characters etc...
Plus all the HP48 missing one: \ ; and even the Euro.
Some characters are located to some very familiar places... Have a look to
the # character, see where it's located... Now look at your PC keyboard...
this is not pure coincidence...
We've spent months on this keyboard.... And believe me, it's a VERY good
keyboard...
Without being arrogant, I think I can easily say that I've spent more time
than ANY of you (who are reading comp.sys.hp48), on my HP48.
All the project I've written for the HP48 community were developed directly
on the HP48 (StringWriter, MiniWriter, MetaKernel, ROMUPLOAD etc...) without
any PCs... I think I know the HP48 keyboard enough...
And it's the same with many people involved in the HP49 development: we ARE
HP48 users...
Remember some games like:
-Arkanoid
-Xennon
-Doom
-Skwik etc....
His author, Cyrille de Brebisson is working for HPACO, he has designed the
3D plotter (and YES it draws a 14*14 matrix at 6 frames/s)
Everybody here knows Mika Heiskanen (Jazz, ALG48, BZ, QPI and more and
more.) and is working with us.
We know the strentgh of the HP48... But it's not perfect something could
have been done in a better way...
These problems were fixed on the HP49 keyboard layout.
You are complaining about the rubber-keys? Who has touched and played with
this keyboard ??? WHAT THE HELL DO YOU KNOW ???
Another point about the HP48 keyboard. You've all seen that when you press a
key on the HP48 is slow down the system more than 3 times. Why ? Because the
HP48 keyboard bounce and we had to fix it by software..
The HP49G doesn't have such a limitation, so the system won't slow down when
you press a key.
4- Why did they use the same CPU...
Well, that's a very good point...
I will answer in two steps:
a-Why a Saturn and not another one (Motorola, StrongARM etc...)
b-Why the same clock speed...
How long do you think it takes to developp a new machine, from scratch based
on a new CPU ? Especially a RPN machine !
Ask the HP48's authors: Bill Wickes, Jim Donnelly, Charles Patton and Dave
Arnett...
How many years it took to come with a machine like the HP48 ?? More than 200
engineer years !
The algorithma specifically designed for the Saturn CPU were develloped in
1984 ... How long do you think it takes to devellop new, very efficient for
a particular machine ?
Take a StrongARM and put an emulator ? Sure .... Have you tried Emu48 (which
is the fastest HP48 emulator available) on a Windows CE machine with a SH3
running at 60 Mhz:
Half the speed of an HP48 (and NO it's not because of Windows CE) ???
You need at least a Pentium 90 to get approximately the same speed.... 90Mhz
CPU to emulate a 4MHZ Saturn one...
What is the maximum battery life on these units: 2 weeks ? Who wants a
machine at this present time, where everybody is screaming because we've
moved the ENTER key, when a calculator will run out of battery after two
weeks ?
A motorola CPU like the TI89 ??? It took 5 years for TI to come out with the
first TI92 (we know ... the project manager at this time, now works for HP
(PC division))
Do you really want to wait that long for a new machine ? Which will run not
even faster than your current HP48 ???
The HP48 is much faster in many ways than any current competitors...
I remember the Open Letter from comp.sys.hp48 written by Eric Rechlin (on
behalf and approved by the people here) two years ago... What was asked:
1- A low-end, cheap HP calculators: you got it: the HP6S
2- A improved HP48 with the MetaKernel and Erable/ALG48: You got it: The
HP49 which is even better than that.
3- A new generation, extremely powerful, high resolution screen etc..... As
I said, the HP49 is the first of a series to come....
And you say that HP is not listening to you ???
How many companies read the newsgroup associated to their machine ?
Have you ever seen somebody from TI posting in a TI newsgroup ?
To come quickly with a new product, that will blow-out everything that
already exist: Faster, easier to use, customizable etc.. It was not possible
to take something else than a Saturn CPU...
b) Why the same clockspeed ...
Just a question...
What is the difference between the HP48SX and the HP48GX CPU ?? 2Mhz ...
well, kind of...
NONE ... the HP48GX is an overclocked HP48SX CPU (the same one in the HP48SX
rev J)
It runs at 4Mhz while it is designed to run a 2Mhz...
There is more than 10% defect when you over clock this CPU...
Yes... It's true that a German company put this CPU at nearly 6Mhz.... The
result:
-Twice the power consumption
-Invalid Clock
For a company like this, which deal with such a small quantity, to overclock
again this CPU was not a problem...
But for HP, what are the risks ? Running a 6Mhz, the Saturn CPU is FAR above
the technical specifications...
How do you know it will react with ESD problems, when you put a RAM card
where the batteries have been inversed ? (we've tried that)
What do you prefer? An HP49 running at 6 (even 8Mhz) which can blow up
without warnings ?
Let's be serious... HP is a VERY high quality brand, usually more
expensive... You pay the price to get a high quality product... Overclocking
the CPU again was the last thing to do...
And it was proven, by FACTS that a Hardware solution was not required, and a
HP49G with its 4MHz CPU is 10 to 100 times faster than an HP48GX, and faster
than any other symbolic capable calculator...
Please wait, try this machine, and then talk about it..
5- Why did they remove the IR
There are many marketing reasons...
Yes.. It's true that IR was extremely useful (even if it's terribly slow)
for you engineers...
But because of this IR, the HP48 has been forbidden in nearly every European
Country, in Australia, in Africa etc...
Do you really think that the American market is THAT big ? Just compare the
size and the population of the US against just Europe....
HP ACO can't live just by selling a few thousand calculators a year....
If you want to be able to use HP calculators in future, there is a price to
pay...
The equation is quite easy.... Which company will produce calculators as a
non-profitable organization ??? stop dreaming...
Now, there was some technical issue with the IR...
All of you were asking for a Flash ROM, where you could update easily (and
for free) the current System...
I won't enter into details here, but either it was IR, or it was the Flash
ROM... Don't you think we made the good choice ?
6- Why did they remove the extension port...
How much memory do you think you can put in an HP48...
Well, we've filled everything we could in the actual hardware:
2MB of FLASH, and 512kB of RAM
We've also had to find a way to speed up the HP48... The memory management
of the HP48 was quite ineficient... Have you ever compared the speed between
an HP48G and a HP48GX... Where do you think the difference came from...
With the new HP49 memory architecture (which is perfect for 3rd party
companies), you can easily compile your program to run at an absolute
address, no ROMPTR anymore...
The HP48 InputForm source code, compiled on the new HP49 (without any
modifications) for the new memory architecture is running 10 times faster
than the same code on the HP48GX with two cards in it !! (it was still not
fast enough, so we've rewritten this one as well)
The new memory architecture was designed to be open and very easy to
program....
Unfortunately, to be able to handle this new memory architecture, we had to
make a choice:
The extension port, or the built-in memory..
What would you have prefer... A machine with only 128kb (or at most 256kb of
RAM) with an expansion port..
Or a machine with 512kB of RAM, 2MB of FlashROM without expansion port ?...
Again, I don't think we took the wrong decision...
And to add just one comment, how many do you think the HP48GX sales are over
the HP48G sales?? This is a confidential information, unfortunately... but
think about it...
Take one number, divide by ten and you may get the other one...
7- ( Ooops, I didn't mention this point before)
You think this calculator was not designed for Engineer?
What do you think we are ?
We've put everything that was missing in the HP48 so if you're doing
experimentation the HP49 will be the perfect tool.
Want to take some measures ? It's quite annoying isn't it on the HP48 that
you have to pool your serial port until you get the right information: you
will run out of batteries before the end of the experimentation.
Well, there's no problem like that on the HP49. We've added some timers, so
you can customize your calculator to wake up every five seconds (as an
example) and to read the serial port.
Just imagine the possibilities of a new Interrupt Handler that allows you to
call back your program based on an event..
Receive a character from the serial port: Wake up !
Finished a computation: Do something.
Etc. etc.
Wants to calculate the Eigenvalue of a symbolic matrix? No problem. The HP49
will do that very quickly.
Etc. etc..
Conclusion
I'm sorry for this extremely long message, but as a proud HP48 user,
everything you've written here hurt. And it hurts a lot.
The HP49G is nearly everything you've asked for in this newsgroup...
a super HP48, faster, more memory, more symbolic capabilities....
We couldn't do better for the screen (the Saturn CPU can handle only this
screen at max), but we've worked on it as well, and the HP49G screen use a
new Crystal Clear technology... Excellent contrast (perfect for games :) )
I've written here everything I had to say....
The HP R&D team has spent months of work to come with this product... and
whatever you may think: IT'S THE BEST CALCULATOR AVAILABLE.
I will probably get trouble for everything I've written here, but I think
it's worth it....
Before complaining again, just try to think a little bit more again...
And if you think that a calculator MUST be bad because of the position of
its ENTER key....
Then you're right, HP can't do anything for you, and didn't come with the
right product....
For those however who were waiting for a calculator that can compete, out of
the box with any other competitor. A calculator which, when you've put
everything you need in memory has still 1.5MB of storage available.... A
calculator that can handled infinite precision numbers, number bigger than
600!, a calculator which keep its performance even if there is less than 500
bytes of memory available...
.... Then the HP49G is for you
Jean-Yves Avenard
Which is proud to have participated in the design of the HP49G.
PS: For those who've asked... it is IMPOSSIBLE to erase anything that were
saved in the Flash ROM by accident: IMPOSSIBLE, we've even try to put 25000V
on the serial port, the Flash ROM was still there.
In fact, it's even more secure than a protected RAM card...
Joseph K. Horn
> I'm sorry for this extremely long message, but as a proud HP48 user,
> everything you've written here hurt. And it hurts a lot.
Please be assured that all those who wrote tactlessly did so without
thinking of how it would impact you (you who are, after all, more
fanatical about the HP48 than any of the HP49-detractors could ever
be). After reading your posting, I'm sure that they will either agree
to wait and see this new wonder, or they will continue to advertise
their ignorance.
> I will probably get trouble for everything I've written here ...
I hope not. It needed to be said.
-Joe-
--
Joseph K. Horn - http://www.jps.net/joehorn/
dalt...@my-dejanews.com
comments (which I hope you don't feel are THAT critical) :-)
In article <374a...@isoit370.bbn.hp.com>,
"Jean-Yves Avenard" <aven...@epita.fr> wrote:
>
> 2- How many people are left-handed, how many are right-handed?
> Why would that be more convenient to be in the middle of the keyboard,
> rather that on the bottom right corner? Because you're used to it?
> How did you get use to it in the first place?
Remember too that the HP-49G is breaking with the pretty much the entire
history of HP calculators, all the way back to 1972 with this change.
There are quite a few people here who still USE calculators from that
long ago. This is a tough one to accept.
However, if this machine is to be used as a keyboard operated RPN/RPL
style machine, where is SWAP, etc.? That's awfully important to use the
calc as a RPN machine...perhaps I've just not noticed where they are? Or
will we have to use menus to do swap, which means moving fingers from the
bottom of the machine to the top each time?
What was asked:
> 1- A low-end, cheap HP calculators: you got it: the HP6S
Did they ask for an algebraic or an RPN low end calculator? (By the way,
I own an HP-6S).
> I will probably get trouble for everything I've written here, but I think
> it's worth it....
We don't want you to get into trouble! But some of your comments WILL
help some to be more willing to wait and see...
Thanks again,
Gene Wright
Http://members.aol.com/hpgene
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---
Massawwa
the 49 are much clearer now...even if the hp49 doesn't seems perfect to
me, it is not as bad as we have thought at the beginning !
Massawwa
--
The dreams do come true, don't they ?
mailto:cco...@club-internet.fr
ICQ # 20783996
Samuel Hocevar
Jean-Yves Avenard <aven...@epita.fr> wrote:
> [...]
>And know, I like it a lot... It is different, looks cool and fit very well
>in your hand.
Agreed.
>2- How many people are left-handed, how many are right-handed?
>Why would that be more convenient to be in the middle of the keyboard,
>rather that on the bottom right corner? Because you're used to it?
>How did you get use to it in the first place?
This might be the only point where I disagree with you. The Enter
key was presumably the most often hit key on the calculator, and I
think it will remain the same with the hp49 due to the Algebraic mode.
So I find it very convenient to hit it with the left thumb. Anyway
the hp calculators are supposed to be *hand*held devices, and if
you can't hit the enter key with the left thumb, you can't do
anything at all with the left hand due to the calculator's weight.
>3-Why did they put the / and the Z on the same key
>Well... That was a very difficult choice...
I agree. I tried to draw other keyboard mappings, and there wasn't
a way to remap it in a more convenient way with this keyboard. But
this is because the 4th, 5th and 6th key rows only have 5 keys
whilst the 48 had 6 there.
>And if the ENTER key is not twice the size of a normal key, there is no
>reason to let it just in the middle of the keyboard, all by himself..
Yes there is one: the machine's balance. I'm pretty sure people
will continue to hit the enter key with their thumb, thus creating
a dangerous lever.
>The fact that the / symbol was on the same location than the Z was a
>problem.. We wanted this keyboard to be efficient in both ALPHA mode and
>NON-ALPHA mode
I understand this was a compromise. But I remember the exact first
thing I said about the hp49 was "how do you type / in alpha mode ?".
I won't blame you for this, because I don't know how the hp49's
hardware is (but as soon as I have one within reach I'll know *g*),
I don't know how much it costs to add several new keys to a prototype,
and I don't know how much the impact on binary compatibility would
be.
Btw, what will the scancode for the Enter key be ?
>Plus all the HP48 missing one: \ ; and even the Euro.
This Is Good. (tm)
>We've spent months on this keyboard.... And believe me, it's a VERY good
>keyboard...
>
>Without being arrogant, I think I can easily say that I've spent more time
>than ANY of you (who are reading comp.sys.hp48), on my HP48.
Hehe.. For sure, not a lot of us spent any time on your HP48 :)
>We know the strentgh of the HP48... But it's not perfect something could
>have been done in a better way...
>These problems were fixed on the HP49 keyboard layout.
>You are complaining about the rubber-keys? Who has touched and played with
>this keyboard ??? WHAT THE HELL DO YOU KNOW ???
I touched and played with the prototypes. And I liked the keyboard.
However, it's hard to explain the feeling in the newsgroup...
>Another point about the HP48 keyboard. You've all seen that when you press a
>key on the HP48 is slow down the system more than 3 times. Why ? Because the
>HP48 keyboard bounce and we had to fix it by software..
Didn't know that. You have a point.
> [...]
>Ask the HP48's authors: Bill Wickes, Jim Donnelly, Charles Patton and Dave
>Arnett...
I was glad to see the RULES command still gave the same output. Please,
don't remove any names in them. We owe them a lot.
>Take a StrongARM and put an emulator ? Sure .... Have you tried Emu48 (which
>is the fastest HP48 emulator available) on a Windows CE machine with a SH3
>running at 60 Mhz:
>Half the speed of an HP48 (and NO it's not because of Windows CE) ???
>
>You need at least a Pentium 90 to get approximately the same speed.... 90Mhz
>CPU to emulate a 4MHZ Saturn one...
I'd be glad to comment on this in another post. But it's not my
point there.
> [...]
>3- A new generation, extremely powerful, high resolution screen etc..... As
>I said, the HP49 is the first of a series to come....
>And you say that HP is not listening to you ???
Jean-Yves.. I love you :>
>How many companies read the newsgroup associated to their machine ?
I must admit the HP people have been closer to us than many people
think. The fact that you're posting this strengthens my confidence
in HP.
>5- Why did they remove the IR
>There are many marketing reasons...
I understand them and I don't blame you for it.
>The HP R&D team has spent months of work to come with this product... and
>whatever you may think: IT'S THE BEST CALCULATOR AVAILABLE.
Agreed, except it's not available yet, though :)
Thanks Jean-Yves. Keep up the good job.
--
Sam.
dalt...@my-dejanews.com
> I said, the HP49 is the first of a series to come....
> And you say that HP is not listening to you ???
>
I would hope that this statement would put to rest the concerns people
have about what might come next.
I had not noticed this statement having been made by someone "in the
know" before.
However, since HP is listening to us :-), I think we should all feel
comfortable that a new calc should be coming sometime that...
Has expansion slots
Has IR
and, perhaps, a wide enter key near the middle of the keyboard? ;-)
I would also hope that it would have SWAP, etc., easily placed for
day-to-day number crunching abilities.
However, there is truth to the thought that if the HP-49G doesn't sell,
it will be more difficult to justify a "58" or "49GX", etc.
Thanks again, J-Y, for your post. If you DO get into any trouble because
of it, drop us all a note about where to send the supportive emails.
Gene Wright
anthony
left the "hp48 scene" (semi-retirement) was that to work
with you on the hp49?
Is the text editor more ed-like or string_writer-like?
Are the utils from Mika on ROM (BZ, QPI,...)
Is the internal Assembler Jazz or Meta-kernel?
What about SYS-RPL: is entry points table available for
developpement?
What do you mean by the hp49 is the first of a long serie?
Last but not least : is the minesweeper running 100 times faster?
-----
Rem: Remove ".poutou" in my email address
Mika Heiskanen
>You've talked about Mika Heiskanen in your post, he said he
>left the "hp48 scene" (semi-retirement) was that to work
>with you on the hp49?
No. My retirement was due to these facts:
1. I had to finish three largish special assignments
before being able to start on my M.Sc. thesis,
and then of course the thesis itself. Kind of a
spurt of activity after being surprised one day
to find out I had enough credits to work on the
thesis, but couldn't because of the missing
special assignments.
2. I had to go to work to support myself since I could
no longer stay at the very low rent student houses.
I went to FMI (Finnish Meteorological Institute), and
am in fact sitting behind my desk right now.
Those two pretty much ate up all my time. So that the user
base would have atleast some form of maintenance for the
various programs I have made, I asked Andre Schoorl to
maintain them (which he graciously agreed to do). Checking the
dates this happened 30.9.98 - at which time I was actually
working at the computational physics lab in Helsinki University
of Technology.
Oh, just noticed the quotes in "hp48 scene". Checking my own
retirement notice in my www-pages again -- no, I cannot read
anything between the lines myself :) Honest.
--
---
--> Mika Heiskanen mhei...@gamma.hut.fi http://www.hut.fi/~mheiskan
Ivan Rivera Rodriguez
realized the HP49G was not exactly my "dream calculator". However, I decided to
keep my mouth shut (and my fingers resting off the keyboard), waiting for the
mind to take over the heart. And now, your post makes clear that HP may or may
not be listening to its users, but you do. That's all I mind over the matter. I
couldn't do better. Perhaps nobody could. And though the HP49G is not what I
have dreamed for, I will buy it, because I'm convinced that it is the best tool
it could be, and above all because its designers are also the best; and that's
exactly what they (you) deserve.
I hope someday to have the mythical HP58 in my hands, but for now I'll wait
eagerly till the day I can look at your HP49G and remember what I thought the
first time I turned on my trusty HP48GX: "the fun is just beginning". Thank you
very much.
Iván Rivera
Urs Baumeler
calc looks better and better to me, with a few questions remaining...
Jean-Yves Avenard wrote:
> The ENTER key was too large, and with all the new functionality of this
> machine, 49 keys were not enough, we needed 51 ...
Maybe I missed something, but please take a look at the picture
of the HP-49 (well, you might have the original handy :-). There is a
place on the keyboard where one could put three more keys without
enlarging the size of the calculator. It's on the left of the arrow keys.
You could have kept the big ENTER key AND add two more.
And you wouldn't have to deal with this silly '/Z' problem. Please, could
you explain why you didn't put the three 'missing' keys in?
I've made an example of a possible 49 key layout - as I would like it
(just a few copy and paste's, dont blame me on key labels ;-).
It's in comp.sources.hp48. Please get me right: I don't say the current
49 key layout is crap - it's just that I can't understand WHY you did it.
> Without being arrogant, I think I can easily say that I've spent more time
> than ANY of you (who are reading comp.sys.hp48), on my HP48.
> All the project I've written for the HP48 community were developed directly
> on the HP48 (StringWriter, MiniWriter, MetaKernel, ROMUPLOAD etc...) without
> any PCs... I think I know the HP48 keyboard enough...
You're using it as YOU like it. So do I. Which 'method' is better?
Who knows! The preferred layout of a calculator keyboard depends
heavily on how you use the device. There is no simple right or wrong.
As you said...one has to try it first.
> And it's the same with many people involved in the HP49 development: we ARE
> HP48 users...
I don't think anybody would question the competence of the ACO team, really.
> We know the strentgh of the HP48... But it's not perfect something could
> have been done in a better way...
We knew that since almost ten years ;-)
[...stuff about why Saturn deleted...]
J-Y, I'm sure you know that you will have to switch to a new
arcitecture, soon. Your competition is able to increase the
power of their products by just waiting for the next generation
of the respective processors. Sure, you pushed the Saturn to it's
limits but - IMHO as a software developer - with a huge tradeoff.
You've got now the whole stuff in Assembler. And this is
probably the worst thing that can happen when you will be forced
to a new archiecture. And you *will* be forced by your competition.
But - that's your problem. As long as the calcs are OK, I don't
care.
> 3- A new generation, extremely powerful, high resolution screen etc..... As
> I said, the HP49 is the first of a series to come....
Now, *this* sounds good!
> To come quickly with a new product, that will blow-out everything that
> already exist: Faster, easier to use, customizable etc.. It was not possible
> to take something else than a Saturn CPU...
That's a very honest word, and I take it as an explanation for almost
everything.
Thanks.
> b) Why the same clockspeed ...
>
> Let's be serious... HP is a VERY high quality brand, usually more
> expensive... You pay the price to get a high quality product... Overclocking
> the CPU again was the last thing to do...
I think the Saturn CPU is in fact a gate array, isn't it? What about using
the same logic with a little bit newer technology? Too expensive? Did it
take too long? Otherwise impossible? I had my last contact with Programmable
Gate Arrays about fifteen years ago, so I might have lost contact with this
technology a little bit :-))))
> Please wait, try this machine, and then talk about it..
As soon as I can get one...
> I won't enter into details here, but either it was IR, or it was the Flash
> ROM... Don't you think we made the good choice ?
Yes.
> I'm sorry for this extremely long message, but as a proud HP48 user,
> everything you've written here hurt. And it hurts a lot.
Let's wait and see what the calc really is. If it's as good as you say,
it will be adopted, and in a short time, nobody will be left complaining
about the color of the case...
Of course, there will be software that brings even the 49 to its limits.
Expect to hear the 'we need more power' song soon. :-)
> The HP49G is nearly everything you've asked for in this newsgroup...
> a super HP48, faster, more memory, more symbolic capabilities...
So, when can I buy one? ;-)
> We couldn't do better for the screen (the Saturn CPU can handle only this
> screen at max), but we've worked on it as well, and the HP49G screen use a
> new Crystal Clear technology... Excellent contrast (perfect for games :) )
If the contrast is OK, the screen is OK for me.
> I will probably get trouble for everything I've written here, but I think
> it's worth it....
It was probably the best thing you could do for HP. You really shouldn't
get trouble for that. Thanks. This post made some things clear - at least for
me.
> .... Then the HP49G is for you
Looks like you're right!
- Urs
Victor A. Riley
decision to take the calculator program out of the hands of the inspired,
visionary fanatics who made it such a stellar product. My initial
impression of the 49 made me concerned that ACO was not such a group. But
the depth of feeling in your post makes it obvious that all of you are
fanatics as well, and that gives me much, much more confidence in the 49 and
in the entire future of HP's calculator line. In my opinion, your post is
the best possible thing you could have done for HP and for all of us who
love their products.
Vic Riley
steven...@my-dejanews.com
In order to explain my 'sysRPL-problem'
it is probably best to start with an
example;
Suppose that
'A*X+B'
'A'
are on the stack and that there is
a variable X containing a number.
Calculating the derivative with
respect to A gives the number that
is stored in X, i.e. the result has
been evaluated.
??? Is there a (sysRPL-)command that
calculates the derivative WITHOUT
evaluating the result afterwards,
i.e. without substituting numbers
for the corresponding variables?
Thanks, Steven Ahlig.
Stephen Hicks
news:slrn7kl79...@bouddha.via.ecp.fr...
> On Tue, 25 May 1999 20:12:42 +1000,
> Jean-Yves Avenard <aven...@epita.fr> wrote:
>>>>
> This might be the only point where I disagree with you. The Enter
> key was presumably the most often hit key on the calculator, and I
> think it will remain the same with the hp49 due to the Algebraic mode.
>
> So I find it very convenient to hit it with the left thumb. Anyway
> the hp calculators are supposed to be *hand*held devices, and if
> you can't hit the enter key with the left thumb, you can't do
> anything at all with the left hand due to the calculator's weight.
I was originally very disturbed by the 49, but after some thinking (and
Jean-Yves' post) I realized that it actually makes a lot of sense. About
the lack of the big ENTER key, I was using my 48 and realized that 3/4 of
the time, I don't use ENTER - I use SPC instead (It still has the same
functionality in RPN mode I hope)... and even with the ENTER key in that
corner, I don't quite see the whole unbalanced thing you're talking about...
I usually find myself hitting shift, alpha, enter, about half the numbers,
and the left half of the top of the keyboard with my left thumb and the rest
with my right (including + and SPC) and when I hit those two keys, there's
no problem with the balance... Also, I do like the fact that >NUM is right
above ENTER and that X has its own key now (in addition to the alpha'd
version - that really bugs me about the ti-89 - they just skip TXYZ on the
alpha keypad) Is there an EVAL anywhere, or will ANS double-up as it? I
didn't notice it on the picture, but I hit that key a lot... Also, everyone
should remember: this is an HP49! Remember the KEYS menu on the 48? This
will have one too! You don't like the lack of a SWAP key, then go ahead and
make RS-Right -> SWAP.. (maybe there will even be a way to have Right work
correctly while you're typing in numbers and then execute a SWAP if you're
just looking at the stack - or you could put it elsewhere) - Just remember,
the best feature of the HP graphing calculators is their extreme
customizability! So if the designers prefer the calc one way and you like
it another way, just override the default setting - everyone here is
competent enough to do that
> >3-Why did they put the / and the Z on the same key
> >Well... That was a very difficult choice...
>
> I agree. I tried to draw other keyboard mappings, and there wasn't
> a way to remap it in a more convenient way with this keyboard. But
> this is because the 4th, 5th and 6th key rows only have 5 keys
> whilst the 48 had 6 there.
One extra keypress for / in alpha mode isn't too bad really - how often do
you type / when you're in alpha mode? I can't think of any sys-rpl commands
that require it other than %/ and the like, and the % takes an extra
keypress anyway, so I don't see much to complain about. Also, I don't see
how they could fit 3 more keys without shrinking all of them up top (which
isn't necissarily a bad thing)
> Btw, what will the scancode for the Enter key be ?
Will this cause a problem with existing programs that rely on the keyboard
scancodes (compatibilty-wise)?
> Thanks Jean-Yves. Keep up the good job.
> --
> Sam.
Thank you for clearing it up... Before I was very disappointed but you made
me see it much more clearly and rationally... Although I just bought my GX,
I'll probably end up buying a 49 as well (or maybe wait a little while for
the next - the GX still *is* a great calculator)
--
Stephen Hicks
mailto:hi...@tampabay.rr.com
http://home.tampabay.rr.com/kupopo/
icq: 5453914; aim: kupopo1
Keith Farmer
Stephen Hicks wrote:
> that require it other than %/ and the like, and the % takes an extra
Speaking of which -- where is % ?
> > Btw, what will the scancode for the Enter key be ?
I think the more interesting question is -- what are the scancodes for
the arrow keys? I'm half-betting that they reduce to the same
arrangement as the 48.
Les Nagy
info came out. I think that the problem most people were having was the
lack of detailed info. After reading your post, I can agree that the 49
seems to be a big improvement. Of course it isn't everyone's dream
calculator, some people like white wine and some people like red wine.
Perhaps you should take the emotional reaction from most people as an
indication of their love of their calculators (HP) and not as much of a
personal attack as you seem to have taken.
Thank you for clarifying many issues with the 49, and it was probably
the best thing that you could have done for the success of the 49 at
this stage.
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Les Nagy: President | mailto:ln...@netaccess.on.ca
|
Aldebaran Technological | Phone: (905) 388-1011
Services Inc. | Fax: (905) 388-9028
http://www.nas.net/~lnagy
Patrick Wood
I must admit that I was skeptical of the HP49 because of the cpu and the lack of
expandability. Your explanation was perfect. The machine sounds great.
(You guys at the ACO obviously put more thought into the calculator than some of
the people posting on this group)
Pat
Russell W. Schmidt
>Yes RPN is better for calculation; we all (hp users) know that... It
>requires less keystrokes etc.
>
>Okay, let's now try to answer to your questions:
>
Thank you. I appreciate your taking the time (and the abuse) to answer
questions on the HP 49. Your comments have cleared up several questions.
However, I have a few comments regarding the keyborad and RPN:
>
>2-I hate the position of the ENTER key
....
>2- How many people are left-handed, how many are right-handed?
>Why would that be more convenient to be in the middle of the keyboard,
>rather that on the bottom right corner? Because you're used to it?
>How did you get use to it in the first place?
>When you've started using a HP calculator who didn't think: I will never be
>able to work with this calculator, but finally, after using it, you've
>started to like it, because you were used to it...
>
>Well, think a little bit again.... And try, just even try to imagine what
>will be the difference at the end..
>
As I see it, the issue is more directly related to RPN versus AES. From the
pictures available the keyboard seems to be optimized for algebraic operation
at the expense of easy use in RPN mode. In particular the enter key has been
moved to an inconvenient spot and de-emphasized, and the stack manipulation
keys seem to be missing completely. HP appears to be running away from RPN
with it's latest products, and thereby abandoning the loyal HP users who
have purchased, supported, and evangelized HP calculators over the years.
The initial impression formed by the HP49 strentghens the impression that
HP is abandoning RPN, or at best making it a second-class option. I will
certainly take a good look at the HP49 in the store, and if possible try
one out. But if, as I fear, RPN is a second-class option on the HP49
I will not buy one.
>
>Look at the keyboard again, and think about it... Think about it twice...
>And you will see that it has ALL the strengths of the HP48 keyboard plus
>much more:
>
Perhaps it doe for AES users, but I don't see much support for the loyal
HP user who has come to know and love RPN. I hope I am mistaken.
>
>I remember the Open Letter from comp.sys.hp48 written by Eric Rechlin (on
>behalf and approved by the people here) two years ago... What was asked:
>1- A low-end, cheap HP calculators: you got it: the HP6S
.....
>And you say that HP is not listening to you ???
HP is obviously _not_ listening very closely. What was requested was a
low-end, cheap _RPN_ calculator. Frankly, for the ~$20 HP wants for
the 6S I can walk into any department store and buy 4 or 5 perfectly
adequate basic calculators that will do everything the 6S does. If HP
produces an RPN version of the 6S for <$20 I will probably buy several.
Instead of running away from RPN (which HP has done with _every_ calculator
introduced since the HP48), HP needs to tout its wonders. The 15 minute
learning curve is nothing to fear! If HP wants to build a market in the
younger generation they should make a <$20 RPN model available, so that the
kids and grandkids of today's professionals can get started properly. While my
wife and I have 6 HPs between us, my kids use cheap AES calculators at school,
because the cheapest RPN model (the 32SII at ~$60) is too expensive for the
abuse it would take. If HP came out with a calculator like the 6S in an RPN
model, I think it would sell well, and would support the more expensive
offerings by getting people used to RPN earlier and allowing them to stay with
RPN, rather than shifting from RPN at work for heavy-duty calculating to
AES at home for checkbook-balancing and figuring the gas mileage.
>2- A improved HP48 with the MetaKernel and Erable/ALG48: You got it: The
>HP49 which is even better than that.
>3- A new generation, extremely powerful, high resolution screen etc..... As
>I said, the HP49 is the first of a series to come....
>
I am very glad to hear that the 49 is the first of a series. I hope that
series includes powerful machines with RPN as the _Primary_ operating system.
>To come quickly with a new product, that will blow-out everything that
>already exist: Faster, easier to use, customizable etc.. It was not possible
>to take something else than a Saturn CPU...
>
The post on HP history in another thread helped to understand the current
situation. While I believe HP screwed up rather badly and wasted the better
part of a decade with the Corvalis -> Singapore -> Australia shuffle of the
calculator business, I am glad to see HP announcing new models, even if they
are largely derivative.
>7- ( Ooops, I didn't mention this point before)
>You think this calculator was not designed for Engineer?
>What do you think we are ?
We _fear_ that HP is no longer an advocate of RPN, and that the long-time
users of HP calculators are going to get ignored, or at best offered a
crude imitation of the tools we have grown to depend upon. As far as I can
tell, the last primarily RPN calculator HP created was the HP48 series
introduced in 1990. Since then HP has introduced the algebraic-only 38G
in 1995 and the algebraic-only 6s/6sol in 1999. I believe it was
Jean-Yves Avenard who fanned the flames by stating that RPN could not
be the default operating mode because it was too hard (I apologize if I
got the attribution wrong). Perhaps that was a mis-understanding, since
his statement at the top of the page acknowledges the benefits RPN.
I just visited the HP museum (www.hpmuseum.org) to get the introduction
dates for these calculators, and I was struck by the fact that HP seems
to have gone through this before. Looking at the currently offered models,
the 17BII and the 19BII were originally offered as the algebraic-only
17B and 19B in 1988, and were modified to the II version in 1990 by adding
RPN. It appears that an early attempt to back away from RPN met with
market disappointment, and led to renewed support for it. I found the
museum's notes on the 12C (HP's oldest current model, introduced in 1981!)
especially interesting. Of the 12C they say:
"The calculator that wouldn't die. The HP-12C is HP's longest and
best selling calculator. Though it was been followed by many newer
models, with both more and less features this model continues to
sell well. In fact an EduCALC catalog says of the HP 17BII
(in bold type): "It's 15 times faster than the HP 12C, and displays
more than 4 times as much information." And of the HP 19BII: "It's
15 times faster than the HP 12C, and displays more than 9 times as
much information." In addition, both newer calculators can print via
infrared to compact printers, have more memory, general purpose solvers,
menus etc.
Why does it continue to sell so well? Here are a few theories:
* It's a pure RPN calculator with no algebraic options to
confuse the buyer or user. The HP-17B and 19B were algebraic
calculators that were rather quickly replaced by BII versions
with optional RPN.
* Business buyers are somewhat conservative. (Old business models
out-selling new ones is not entirely unique to the HP-12C.)
* The average business buyer, is perhaps, less inclined to read the
spec sheets and more inclined to buy based on word of mouth.
* It's good (and expensive) looking.
* Like all 10C series calculators, it has a nice solid built-like-a-brick
feel that clamshell models can't quite match. It has become part of the
well-dressed business uniform - easily distinguished from cheap
calculators
due to its layout.
Perhaps it really does provide just the right functions in the right
form factor at the right price. "
Perhaps the current ACO should take a lesson from HP's past. If HP calculators
wants to prosper, they need to build on thier traditional strengths, not
abandon
them to challenge their competitors on the competitors home turf.
As I see it, HP's traditional strengths are:
- They are the ONLY manufacturer of RPN calculators. RPN is more efficient,
faster, and more logical than algebraic entry.
- They have a long-standing reputation for quality and reliability.
- HP calculators are equated with intelligence & competence. The impression
is,
If you use an HP, you must be smart.
So:
+ Make your new calculators unashamedly RPN. Accomodate AES to the extent
that it does not hinder RPN, but stay with RPN as the primary interface.
+ Maintain the quality and reliability that make an HP worth the extra
cost of purchasing one.
+ Maintain the elegant industrial design of past HPs. Everyone should
know at a glance that it is not some generic piece of crap, but a
quality tool.
I think that the firestorm that HP ACO has suffered up over the HP49 is in
large part because the committed (even zealous) HP users here percieve that HP
is veering away from these ideals. Your answers have addressed some of these,
and I hope we are wrong on the others.
Thanks again for your willingness to discuss these issues we all care about.
--
Russ Schmidt (i...@ornl.gov)
Lockheed Martin Energy Systems, Inc.
Oak Ridge, Tennessee 37831-2009
Al Arduengo
calc? Just an estimation perhaps?
-Al
--
Al Arduengo
IES Entertainment Solutions Division Digital Audio Product Engineering
Motorola, Inc. - Austin TX
Phone: (512) 895-8690 Fax: (512) 895-8719 Pager: 1-800-SKYTEL2 #1386420
dbac...@ionet.net
>
> 2- How many people are left-handed, how many are right-handed?
> Why would that be more convenient to be in the middle of the keyboard,
> rather that on the bottom right corner? Because you're used to it?
> How did you get use to it in the first place?
> When you've started using a HP calculator who didn't think: I will
> never be able to work with this calculator, but finally, after using
> it, you've started to like it, because you were used to it...
>
> Well, think a little bit again.... And try, just even try to imagine
> what will be the difference at the end..
>
I'm right-handed, along with the majority of people on the planet.
As a right-handed person, I tend to pick and hold things with
my right hand. Holding the 48G in my right hand and using my
thumb to push its buttons, it makes sense to me that you'd want
commonly depressed buttons to be as close to the bottom right as
possible. Handily, the numbers and basic arithmetic functions
are all near the bottom right. So why should the [ENTER] key
be elsewhere? Well, if I'm entering a series of numbers on the
stack, it does speed things up to be able to bring my left hand
into play. Moreover, if my left hand is helping to balance the
calculator, my left thumb is closer to the middle of the calculator
than either of its ends.
Anyway, I look forward to fooling around with a 49G when one
finally makes itself available in my local area.
Donald
Bob Strand
Jean-Yves Avenard <aven...@epita.fr> wrote in message
news:374a...@isoit370.bbn.hp.com...
Reiner Stallknecht
some comments to your posting
Jean-Yves Avenard wrote:
>
> Let's try to answer some questions...
>
> 1- Well, tastes and tastes.... Some may not like not, some will...
> Unfortunately for some people that always want to be right, more people like
> it than people who won't. Sometimes you have to accept that you're not the
> only one on earth.
> When I first looked at the design, I said, eurrk this doesn't look
> professional, math is a serious business (just like some of you) ... But
> after using it, I've started to like it...
>
You have explained it yourself why the response in this newsgroup is almost
negative: its NOT love on the first look.
> I will answer in two steps:
>
> a-Why a Saturn and not another one (Motorola, StrongARM etc...)
> b-Why the same clock speed...
>
> How long do you think it takes to developp a new machine, from scratch based
> on a new CPU ? Especially a RPN machine !
> Ask the HP48's authors: Bill Wickes, Jim Donnelly, Charles Patton and Dave
> Arnett...
> How many years it took to come with a machine like the HP48 ?? More than 200
> engineer years !
I agree mostly, but i hope that a replacement of the saturn processor is in
developement. The reason we must stick with a more then 10 Year!!!! old CPU was
caused by the wrong decision somewhere in the past
> The algorithma specifically designed for the Saturn CPU were develloped in
> 1984 ... How long do you think it takes to devellop new, very efficient for
> a particular machine ?
You have the source code, haven't you?
It must not be very efficient for a first release with a powerfull processor
like the StrongARM and the possibility to update new OS-Releases
> What is the maximum battery life on these units: 2 weeks ? Who wants a
> machine at this present time, where everybody is screaming because we've
> moved the ENTER key, when a calculator will run out of battery after two
> weeks ?
That's a break in the tradition of HP-calcs, no wonder if most HP48-users are
screaming
>
> I said, the HP49 is the first of a series to come....
That's a hope for us
> Let's be serious... HP is a VERY high quality brand, usually more
> expensive... You pay the price to get a high quality product...
HP was a VERY high quality brand, now they are almost mainstream
> And it was proven, by FACTS that a Hardware solution was not required, and a
> HP49G with its 4MHz CPU is 10 to 100 times faster than an HP48GX, and faster
> than any other symbolic capable calculator...
> Please wait, try this machine, and then talk about it..
Yes, wait and see
Correction: We have seen it, wait and try fits better
> 5- Why did they remove the IR
> There are many marketing reasons...
> Yes.. It's true that IR was extremely useful (even if it's terribly slow)
> for you engineers...
Make IR optional
> If you want to be able to use HP calculators in future, there is a price to
> pay...
We have choosen HP's in the past, because it was the different and more
powerfull and
the best available calc. Who wants HP if it's look cheap and mainstream like
Casio's and TI.
Maybe HP will have more success with this calc by new customers, but HP will
loose many HP-Customers. I think that's a dont care for HP-marketing people
because the driving force is money.
> ... and
> whatever you may think: IT'S THE BEST CALCULATOR AVAILABLE.
Is that enough? Think back to 1989 when the HP48 came out.
IT WAS NOT ONLY THE BEST CALCULATOR AVAILABLE ,IT WAS
OUTSTANDING SUPERIOR
> I will probably get trouble for everything I've written here, but I think
> it's worth it....
Yes, it is worth it. Maybe the HP48-users had have expected too much, and maybe
the 49 is currently the best calc.
But is there a little chance or hope for small design modification (not
technical design) till the release-date to make the 49 look like an HP-calc?
> PS: For those who've asked... it is IMPOSSIBLE to erase anything that were
> saved in the Flash ROM by accident: IMPOSSIBLE, we've even try to put 25000V
> on the serial port, the Flash ROM was still there.
> In fact, it's even more secure than a protected RAM card...
That's good
with best regards
Reiner Stallknecht
Oboist
>.... Then the HP49G is for you
>
>Jean-Yves Avenard
>Which is proud to have participated in the design of the HP49G.
Holy Shit!
I just tried this on the emulator and received the ENTIRE full
precision 1200+ digit response in under three seconds!
Tell me "when" and "where" and I'll be in line to buy the first one.
Honk!
Oboist
Keith Farmer
> As a right-handed person, I tend to pick and hold things with
> my right hand. Holding the 48G in my right hand and using my
Actually, I'm right-handed as well, but hold the calc (not just HP)
entirely in my left hand, and type with my right. Not just push-push,
but like a 10-key. I think this might be the case with the user who
commented on the possible 'dangerous lever' involved in putting the
enter key at the bottom right corner. I don't imagine this would be a
problem for someone using his right thumb and fingers and (in effect)
pinching/grabbing the HP to hit the enter button, as opposed to pushing
(without immediate support on the underside).
Charles Perry
Why was IR "banned" in "most European countries"? Was it because of
concerns over cheating? What about an IR out only like on the 42S and 28
series? I really find the HP IR printer to be handy. I hate the thought of
losing this functionality.
I still don't like the placement of the enter key, but you are right , IF I
buy one I could probably get used to it. I still find it hard to believe
that rubber keys are going to retain a good tacile feel and will be durable.
Charles Perry PE
Charles Perry
As for a cheap HP, I doubt anyone meant AES. I would LOVE for HP to produce
a cheap RPN similar the the 6S.
Charles Perry PE
Keith Farmer
> I just tried this on the emulator and received the ENTIRE full
> precision 1200+ digit response in under three seconds!
A program to do this under Alg48:
<< #1d 2 600 FOR X X AMUL NEXT Z<->S >>
took 110 secs to execute on a GX/p, 60k free. The result had 1409 digits.
Impressive.
Question: are there any other new object types? (going back to the OOP
blurb in the french brochure)
Indifference
<dalt...@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
news:7ie3p6$n3c$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> J-Y, thanks for clarifying quite a few things with this post. Some
> comments (which I hope you don't feel are THAT critical) :-)
>
> > Why would that be more convenient to be in the middle of the keyboard,
> > rather that on the bottom right corner? Because you're used to it?
> > How did you get use to it in the first place?
>
>
> history of HP calculators, all the way back to 1972 with this change.
> There are quite a few people here who still USE calculators from that
> long ago. This is a tough one to accept.
>
> However, if this machine is to be used as a keyboard operated RPN/RPL
> style machine, where is SWAP, etc.? That's awfully important to use the
> calc as a RPN machine...perhaps I've just not noticed where they are? Or
> will we have to use menus to do swap, which means moving fingers from the
> bottom of the machine to the top each time?
From my short testing of the emulator (stupid legal issues), i found that
the arrows main purpose is to swap and manipulate the stack
>
>
> What was asked:
> > 1- A low-end, cheap HP calculators: you got it: the HP6S
>
>
> Did they ask for an algebraic or an RPN low end calculator? (By the way,
> I own an HP-6S).
>
>
> > I will probably get trouble for everything I've written here, but I
think
> > it's worth it....
>
> We don't want you to get into trouble! But some of your comments WILL
> help some to be more willing to wait and see...
>
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Gene Wright
> Http://members.aol.com/hpgene
>
>
Keith Farmer
>
> The ENTER key was too large, and with all the new functionality of this
> machine, 49 keys were not enough, we needed 51 ...
> one of the things that really annoys me about the new layout is all the
> comparison keys, =,<,> ect....that are taking up so much keyboard space...there
Actually, they were on the 1, 2, and 3 keys on the 48's. I like them
accessible on the alpha's specifically for programming reasons.
I would imagine they also exist (as in the 48) under [PRG][TEST].
> like the ARITH, MATRICES, UNITS, SOLVER, PINANCE, LIBRARIES...ectl
We need the Libs menu. The others are debatable (I personally never use
Finance), and the others, especially with the support of symbolic
matrices built-in, would be of use to lots of math/science students and pros.
> and put all them on a pull down/pop up menu...
> that would allow you to put more stack operators and algebraic functions on the
The stack ops are the same as the 48, just not listed on the keyboard
proper. IE: RIGHT-Arrow = SWAP when in the stack. UP is the
Interactive Stack, DOWN is View, LEFT is GRAPH.
As far as functions go, everything's there. I could personally live
without the dedicated X key (I have my own variable style) but that of
course can be remapped easily -- like replacing it with '.
.....
Now, how exactly does one use ANS? Is it the equivalent of PICK?
Keith Farmer
TinyWanda wrote:
> on the 49 it's located above the 2
> but on my computer keyboard, it's above the 3
Go to hpcalc.org and look at the official pic. The keyboard got swapped
a bit. On that pic, the [#] and [BASE] are shifted [3].
Keith Farmer
Stephen Hicks wrote:
> Keith Farmer <far...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> > Speaking of which -- where is % ?
> [...]
> (43.6 i believe)
I'm aware for JAZZ on the 48. I was curious about the 49, but figured
it out independently.
> Well if it still is logical (ROW*10+COL+SHIFT*.1) then programs that look
> for the ENTER key on the 48 will end up finding something completely
> different on the 49 (don't have picture handy, so i don't know what)
*IF* the arrow keys on the 49 reduce to rows 2 and 3, I'd expect ENTER =
105.1 (Row 10, Col 5). IF the arrow keys represent their own row(s), I
don't know what they'd be.
Keith Farmer
> it's some kind of SCAM by either HP or those French Bast*rds...!!!
Yes, this is the French Connection, using the Forth Protocol. Where's
John Cleese, and when do we swallow the fish?
Your conspiracy theory is impeccable, but your delivery -- tsk tsk.
At least my people take over contries with more style (see
www.theonion.com, I believe it is).
Keith Farmer
JEEjohn wrote:
> PPPPS: Since it's blue, do we get to call it Big Blue?
I'm more inclined to one of it's appellations: Beast (the blue, buff,
hairy, genius of X-Men fame).
Detlef Mueller
would have been published w/ the openHP event, that would
have saved us from lot's of emotion-loaded articles. Personnally
I don't like the color sheme yet, but that may be subject to
change as soon I see one in real-life. I found the innards of
it very interesting since I saw the 1st descriptions, and the
information given here and from Dave make me really curious on
it :-)
However, a few comments and a question:
On Tue, 25 May 1999 20:12:42 +1000, Jean-Yves Avenard wrote:
> The more I read this newsgroup... The more it become ridiculous...
True, but this one is home-brewn -- HP HQ shouldn't have allowed
the show in Paris, IMVHO that was a major mistake unless more
information on the '49 would have been published the same day.
Well, one never learns anything w/o doing mistakes ;)
> [..]
> When I first looked at the design, I said, eurrk this doesn't look
> professional, math is a serious business (just like some of you) ... But
> after using it, I've started to like it...
> And know, I like it a lot... It is different, looks cool and fit very well
> in your hand.
Most people here can only perform the 1st step of your description
due the lack of information and the availability of the '49. So
don't judge the to quick, remember your 1st impression. The slipped
out emulator seems to help the people comming to the second step,
I've seen quite a few reverting from "arghh, never !" to "give it
a try when it's available"...
> [..]
> If I had a choice, I would stick with the HP48 keyboard for sure... But ...
> the direction key... That's annoying...
What I'd fully support. I'm using the '48 for ~9.5yrs now and
still hit the arrows for movement when in alpha-mode from time
to time. On all other keys I'll judge after I've playe w/ a 49
a while.
> [..]
> The HP48 soft-menu are really good there, you select your menu and that's
> it, it will stay there until you go in another menu...
> But... The soft menus are not perfect for a beginner user... At most 5
> letters can be displayed in the menu and no lowercase... That's annoying
> don't you think?
Well, after thinking about the time I started w/ the '48, more no
than yes. The '48 menu-system is very logical and the access is
quick, so it wasn't that hard to learn (speaking for myself).
> [..]
> So we've decided to put a new option: the ability to select between
> ChooseBox menus and softkey menus...
> The first time you start this machine, by default, the menu are displayed
> like ChooseBoxes.
Here my questions pops up: what I've seen so far, some choose boxes
are two level deep, eg. w/ the 1st one you're selecting a topic, w/
the second one your selecting a function. There seems to be no way
back from level 2 to 1 (which makes the whole think obsolete IMVHO),
at least I didn't recognized one. Why didn't you port the '38G splitted
choose boxes that where designed for exactly that case and allow to go
back at the fly ? Just curious...
> [..]
> You are complaining about the rubber-keys? Who has touched and played with
> this keyboard ??? WHAT THE HELL DO YOU KNOW ???
See my 3rd comment above.
> [..]
> 1- A low-end, cheap HP calculators: you got it: the HP6S
Well, not exactly what was asked for -- no RPN...
> [..]
> How many companies read the newsgroup associated to their machine ?
> Have you ever seen somebody from TI posting in a TI newsgroup ?
There're quite a lot newsgroups where you can reach developers of
comercial products. Most calculators are addressed to the schools
market, a newsgroup stuffed w/ this folks is usually very noisy
and not too usefull for the manufacturer (the response of teachers
is quite more usefull, but they're contacted at shows or directly).
Note that this group was created for one model, the '48 -- HPs top-
level calculator addressed to professionals. This is reflected in
the usally low noise in this group. I doubt that that HP would listen
very carefully to the traffic in comp.sys.hp6s...
> [..]
> Yes... It's true that a German company put this CPU at nearly 6Mhz.... The
> result:
> -Twice the power consumption
~1.5 times. I've a modifed '38G.
> -Invalid Clock
Could be fixed in the OS. There's one very valuabe point:
the IO works at 19200bd. But I agree not to use it in the
'49 if it validates the specs.
> [..]
> Let's be serious... HP is a VERY high quality brand, usually more
> expensive... You pay the price to get a high quality product... [..]
Unfortunately that one has to be re-proven -- HP tends
to deliver lower quallity the last two years, especially
since the production in Indonesia started (I remember a
lot people complaining about ill-functioning LCDs and
the '38G seemed to need a modification to lower the
possibility of non-functioning keys.). This seems a major
concern of quite a few people here. They (and I) just want
a very high quallity calc -- I'll take your word on that.
> [..]
> Yes.. It's true that IR was extremely useful (even if it's terribly slow)
> for you engineers...
> But because of this IR, the HP48 has been forbidden in nearly every European
> Country, in Australia, in Africa etc...
You mean in schools, I guess ? Another concern a lot people
seem to have: the '49 is designed for school, not lab (which
IMO isn't correct).
> [..]
> What would you have prefer... A machine with only 128kb (or at most 256kb of
> RAM) with an expansion port..
> Or a machine with 512kB of RAM, 2MB of FlashROM without expansion port ?...
> Again, I don't think we took the wrong decision...
This is difficult to decide, time will tell. "Nothing can
replace memory except more memory".
This article is ment to be (at least somewhat) constructive,
let me know if you disagree.
Ciao,
Detlef
--
`Let's get some cards and play Magic' Detlef Mueller
-- Gex detlef (@) provi (.) de
http://www.provi.de/~detlef
PGP Public Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x524F4049
!!! ATTN !!! To reach my via e-mail, do _NOT_ auto-reply !!!
TinyWanda
machine, 49 keys were not enough, we needed 51 ...
---------------------------:: o
one of the things that really annoys me about the new layout is all the
comparison keys, =,<,> ect....that are taking up so much keyboard space...there
that brings up a menu, and then you can select the comparison function that you
want...???
also, it might have been nice to get rid of all the special area keys...
like the ARITH, MATRICES, UNITS, SOLVER, PINANCE, LIBRARIES...ectl
and put all them on a pull down/pop up menu...
that would allow you to put more stack operators and algebraic functions on the
keyboard...
----------- :: o
.---..-..-..-..-..-..-. . .-. .-. .-..-..-.. .-.
`| |'| || .` | > / \ \/ \/ / / \ | .` || | ) / \
`-' `-'`-'`-' `-' `. ^ .' `--^--'`-'`-'`-'' `--^--'
The Essence Of Life Is Being Aware That We Are Robots.
TinyWanda
the # character, see where it's located... Now look at your PC keyboard...
this is not pure coincidence...
on the 49 it's located above the 2
but on my computer keyboard, it's above the 3
by suggesting that it's non pure coincidence, are you saying that you
methodically designed it to be confusing...???
TinyWanda
on a new CPU ? Especially a RPN machine !
Ask the HP48's authors: Bill Wickes, Jim Donnelly, Charles Patton and Dave
Arnett...
How many years it took to come with a machine like the HP48 ?? More than 200
engineer years !
this is another very point that you keep harping on...
you know...other companies that produce other electronic products are coming
out with a new cpu for just about every product they make, or at the very least
a new generation of cpu that may behave in the same kind of way, but processes
data faster, like 10x faster per generation...!!!
this is really lame to say...'It's too hard...!"
TinyWanda
Country, in Australia, in Africa etc...
can anyone vouch that this is actually true...and if so, why?
TinyWanda
---------------------:: o
oh my GEEEEEEAAAAWWWDDD....!!!
i don't think anybody the HP6s in mind when they said low-end, inexpensive
HP...
i think that we were thinking more along the lines of a reasonably priced,
smaller 42 or 32 type calculator...and something that could be minimally
programed...!!!
what is the point of the HP6S...??? there are already a dozen calculators
sitting by the cash registars at the supermarket that will do essentially
everything that someone would use the HP6s for...???
if you're going to be using SIN and SQ on it, then you'd certainly have a
graphical calculator or soemthing with a few memory registars in it...
i really can't imagine anyone buying an HP6s for anything other than as
jewelry...!!!
TinyWanda
Have you ever seen somebody from TI posting in a TI newsgroup ?
it would seem that some of the people that work for HP and some people that do
contract work for HP read this newsgroup...
but i often think that it would be nice if HP had an official person or return
address that would/could post official HP notices here occasionally...
it's somewhat (?) disconcerning that when anyone posts here from HP, they
specifically say: 'I am not speaking for HP when i post here'...!!!
TinyWanda
new Crystal Clear technology... Excellent contrast (perfect for games :) )
...New and Improved...???
as good as the screen on the pre-industrial version HP28...???
TinyWanda
thinking of how it would impact you (you who are, after all, more
fanatical about the HP48 than any of the HP49-detractors could ever
be).
-------------------------:: o
on the contrary, i was, and have been, very cognicent of how my posts might
have effected the self esteem of the French team and others that have been
involved in the creation of the 49g...
if i was able to, i wouldn't hesitate to sneak up behind one of you bast*rds
and push your face down into your own excrements.
( or something like that... )
Stephen Hicks
>
>
> Stephen Hicks wrote:
> > that require it other than %/ and the like, and the % takes an extra
>
> Speaking of which -- where is % ?
I was referring at that time to JAZZ where (at least I do) most of the
editing is in ALPHA mode - in that environment (ED), you hit ALPHA-RS-TAN
(43.6 i believe)
> > > Btw, what will the scancode for the Enter key be ?
>
> I think the more interesting question is -- what are the scancodes for
> the arrow keys? I'm half-betting that they reduce to the same
> arrangement as the 48.
Well if it still is logical (ROW*10+COL+SHIFT*.1) then programs that look
for the ENTER key on the 48 will end up finding something completely
different on the 49 (don't have picture handy, so i don't know what)
--
Stephen Hicks
mailto:hi...@tampabay.rr.com
http://home.tampabay.rr.com/kupopo/
icq: 5453914; aim: kupopo1
TinyWanda
info came out...but...
-------------------------:: o
i find it VERY suspecious that about 20 posts now, by allegedly 20 different
posters have used this line VERBATUM...!!!
i don't think any of these are real people...
it's some kind of SCAM by either HP or those French Bast*rds...!!!
TinyWanda
>And you will see that it has ALL the strengths of the HP48 keyboard plus
>much more:
the keyboard 'layout' is the most HORRIBLE thing about the 49, and it's NOT the
ENTER key...i couldn't care less about the damn ENTER key...!!!, i use the SPC
key to separate numbers when entering them...it is contrary to the HP
canon...but...enh!
But all the other cr*p...the comparison keys, no SWAP key, no stack
manipulation keys at all, the F keys, too many keys used for special
sections...that should have all been put on a pop-up menu...i mean, you want
things on the keyboard that you use all the time...!!!...you don't want things
wasting space when you're only going to use them once in a lavendar moon, or
with many of these keys...NEVER EVER...!!!
the keyboard is an atrosity...!!!
you should be ASHAMED---ASHAMED OF THE D*MN KEYBOARD...!!!
Stephen Hicks
the electric tape over the IR port trick? And I thought I read somewhere
that it's only got a 2' recieve range? That sort of foils any plans to
cheat that someone might have even if they don't have tape over the port...
--
Stephen Hicks
mailto:hi...@tampabay.rr.com
http://home.tampabay.rr.com/kupopo/
icq: 5453914; aim: kupopo1
TinyWanda <tiny...@aol.com.ReMvThs> wrote in message
news:19990525203236...@ng-fp1.aol.com...
> But because of this IR, the HP48 has been forbidden in nearly every
European
> Country, in Australia, in Africa etc...
> -------------------------------:: o
> can anyone vouch that this is actually true...and if so, why?
>
>
>
>
TinyWanda
there are ALOT of posts to this thread...
...wussy posts saying...
"i'm so sorry that i didn't think the 49 was so wonderful,
you've changed my mind, where can i buy one..."
you will note: these are all NEW post address'.
they have never posted here before...???
they are FAKE...!!!
IT'S A SSSCCCAAAMMM...!!!
TinyWanda
> expensive... You pay the price to get a high quality product... [..]
if you have to keep TELLING people this...
just how true is it...???
HP USED TO BE a very high quality company...
but the quality of thier products has been taking a nose dive in the last few
years...???
( esp when we learned that they started PAINTING on the key numbers...!!! )
Zak Smith
>sections...that should have all been put on a pop-up menu...i mean, you want
>things on the keyboard that you use all the time...!!!...you don't want things
>wasting space when you're only going to use them once in a lavendar moon, or
Well, I guess it's a good thing we can re-map the keyboard, then.
But how to change the labels..
-z
--
# Zak Smith, MScEE, Unix Geek, INTJ. z...@computer.org http://apollo.demigod.org
# PGP Ok! Key http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x6820FC39
L Stewart
> I'm guessing that you mean forbidden on tests and in schools - what about
> the electric tape over the IR port trick? And I thought I read somewhere
> that it's only got a 2' recieve range? That sort of foils any plans to
> cheat that someone might have even if they don't have tape over the port...
On the International Baccalaureate math exams, the HP48G/GX is disallowed
in part because of the IR (I think), but mostly because of it's symbolic
integration and differentiation abilities. Sadly, the some of the TI's
were allowed and my friends loaded their calculators with programs which
never got checked for by the examinators. I still did better :)
I don't see why teachers / school boards wouldn't allow calcs with
low-powered IRs on them in exams. As you said, it's totally possible to
block them with tape. Realistically, even if you wanted to share
stuff with buddies, it's too hard and obvious, having to turn around and
do stuff with the calc that's obviously not exam related. Besides, one is
usually pressed for time in exams. I'm wondering how many students who
actually are allowed to use their HPs on exams do use the IR to cheat.
I think IR is a nasty buzzword for teachers. They see IR on a calculator's
data sheet and equate it to cheating. On the data sheet for the G, G+, and
GX, it doesn't give the range of the IR. I think that if it did, many
teachers and schoolboards would allow the HP on exams, if they put enough
spacing between the desks.
Liam
--
Liam Stewart
E-Mail: li...@ualberta.ca
"It is not enough to be busy, so are the ants. The question is: what are
we busy about?"
-Henry David Thoreau
JEEjohn
writes:
>(You guys at the ACO obviously put more thought into
>the calculator than some of the people posting on this group)
>
>Pat
And that was what was pissing me off so much.
Anybody who has done any design work knows that there are
compromises that have to be made. Sometimes they are **extremely**
difficult, as apparently JYA has stated. Not everybody can predict
what the future users of a calculator will want or complain about.
Most assuredly it will be nothing of what has been complained
about of the HP49!!
An example: in the 70s there was a company that produced a
scientific calculator that did not have scientific notation. They
simply moved the decimal point around. The user was expected
to keep track of how many times the decimal point shifted from
the left end to the right end or the right end to left end
(i.e. powers of 10^10). It sounds stupid, silly, and idiotic today,
but with all the slide rule users in the 70s..........?
John Edry
PS: Saturn is an old processor? Hey, the 68000 used by the TI89/92
dates from 1979!! And the other TIs use a Zilog Z80 and that dates
from about 1975.
PPS: Am I the only one who is starting to find TinyWanda a little
more than irritating now?
PPPS: I am inclined to forgive stuff, because this is the first good
HP calculator announced with some 100 million people connected to
the internet. The info got to a lot of people very very fast.
Steve
JEEjohn wrote in message
<19990525235342...@ngol02.aol.com>...
>In article <374AF3D5...@prodigy.net
>An example: in the 70s there was a company that produced a
>scientific calculator that did not have scientific notation.
They
>simply moved the decimal point around. The user was expected
>to keep track of how many times the decimal point shifted from
>the left end to the right end or the right end to left end
>(i.e. powers of 10^10). It sounds stupid, silly, and idiotic
today,
>but with all the slide rule users in the 70s..........?
>
>John Edry
>
Do you know the name of the company and/or the model of the
calculator?
>PS: Saturn is an old processor? Hey, the 68000 used by the
TI89/92
>dates from 1979!! And the other TIs use a Zilog Z80 and that
dates
>from about 1975.
Good point.
Steve
Urs Baumeler
> I've made an example of a possible 49 key layout - as I would like it
> (just a few copy and paste's, dont blame me on key labels ;-).
> It's in comp.sources.hp48.
Seems to be impossible to post to comp.sources.hp48. If anybody is interested in
the 'tweaked' keyboard, I can send him/her the JPEG (~150K) by email. Sorry.
- Urs
Peter Khor
outsiders (like myself) to critisize...
Only one thing though:
Jean-Yves Avenard wrote in message <374a...@isoit370.bbn.hp.com>...
>3- A new generation, extremely powerful, high resolution screen etc..... As
>I said, the HP49 is the first of a series to come....
>And you say that HP is not listening to you ???
>
> .....
>
>Do you really think that the American market is THAT big ? Just compare the
>size and the population of the US against just Europe....
>HP ACO can't live just by selling a few thousand calculators a year....
>If you want to be able to use HP calculators in future, there is a price to
>pay...
>The equation is quite easy.... Which company will produce calculators as a
>non-profitable organization ??? stop dreaming...
Which would imply that the HP bean-counters would REQUIRE all future calcs
to be like that of the 49 (education use targeted vs. the fractional 1000's
of "professional" users) - ie, no IR, etc. :-(
At any rate, lemme know where the line starts to get me one of 'em 49G!
Peter Khor
TinyWanda
>scientific calculator that did not have scientific notation.
They >simply moved the decimal point around. The user was expected >to keep
track of how many times the decimal point shifted from >the left end to the
right end or the right end to left end >(i.e. powers of 10^10). It sounds
stupid, silly, and idiotic today, >but with all the slide rule users in the
70s..........? >
>John Edry
Do you know the name of the company and/or the model of the
calculator?
Casio's do that...although they're not really intended for Scientific type
calculations, but with this feature, they do allow numbers to jump past the
normal 8 digits or whatever...
Samuel Hocevar
>PPS: Am I the only one who is starting to find TinyWanda a little
>more than irritating now?
No.
--
Sam.
TinyWanda
i've been thinking lately...
"Am i being too hard these French weasels...?"
and then Jean-Y will post another message to this board saying the most
outrageously stupid things, and i respond to myself...
no, i'm NOT being too hard on 'them'...!
you know though...
people can be both smart and dumb at the same time...
this is the core of the IQ debate...in that you assign a person with an IQ of
xxx and then people will think, well, that person is either smart or dumb...but
actually, you can have a high IQ and be really dumb about certain things, and i
don't mean simply uneducated about certain things, i mean, genuinely
STOOPID...!
while on the other end, you can have a person with a very low IQ and be very
smart about certain things, like a Monosavant ( Idiot Savant )...
so i would think Jean-Y is like this...
he have an immense ability at writing certain kind of routines for the 48 or 49
or whatever...
but he certainly has no design sense and SHOULD NOT have been allowed to
contribute to the creation of the 49 in any area along those lines...!!!
also: this is old news...but i find in INFINITELY irritating that HP has VERY
METHODICALLY decided to create a calculator that will somehow draw users away
from TI, by making the 49 LOOK LIKE a TI calculator...!!!
THIS IS PURE HERESY in a very disagreeable kind of way...
it's like Jack In The Box immitating every item from the McDonalds menu--as
they did for manyline 35mm Camera several years ago, the F1, after the Nikon
line of Cameras...!!!
that's just AMAZINGLY STUPID...!!!
you kind of expect that kind of bullsh*t from second rate companies that are
trying to muscle in on the 'big' companies market...
But for HP to try a stunt like this to take bznz away from TI just make me SOOO
INCREDIBLY SAD...that i CAN NEVER-EVER IN MILLION ZILLION YEARS OF CONSTANT
UNREMITTING EFFORT SAY ENOUGH BAD THINGS ABOUT THE FRENCH TEAM THAT CREATED
THIS CALCULATOR.
Never Ever.
the end.
Melissa Reid
<aven...@epita.fr> wrote:
Since I've posted on this subject before:
> I said, the HP49 is the first of a series to come....
This is the *first* I've heard anyone in a position to know say
anything like that. It makes me much happier; I had visions of HP
tossing out one more calculator before giving the product line up
entirely. Knowing that there will be others, even better, makes
me much happier about this.
> 5- Why did they remove the IR
I had visions of using it to generate random numbers for
Ciphersaber IVs, but I can think of something else. Actually, I
already have a couple of vague ideas, and maybe I can get them
small enough to carry with the calc...
> I won't enter into details here, but either it was IR, or it was the Flash
> ROM... Don't you think we made the good choice ?
Yes.
> 7- ( Ooops, I didn't mention this point before)
> You think this calculator was not designed for Engineer?
> What do you think we are ?
True. But all I knew at first was what I saw, and some VERY short
descriptions. It looked (still does, from the short version only)
like the 49 was focusing on high school students by pretending to
be a TI.
Can you see how this might not go over well on a newsgroup that
has "HP Calculators of the Gods" vs "TI Calculators, Tools of
Satan" flamefests? At least without lots of reassurance?
The further information coming from you helps that a lot, but at
the first, I (for one) didn't know any of that!
> PS: For those who've asked... it is IMPOSSIBLE to erase anything that were
> saved in the Flash ROM by accident: IMPOSSIBLE, we've even try to put 25000V
> on the serial port, the Flash ROM was still there.
> In fact, it's even more secure than a protected RAM card...
And that takes care of my biggest problem (except my fear of
killing the keyboard in the first year). I want to be able to sit
in the bagel place, munch lox and drink latte, and write code.
Including ML. With my RAMcards, I can by write past the end of a
string (oops! :> ), nuke memory, and just restore the backup I
made on the card and go on with my life; if I'll be able to do
something similar with the 49, only safer, that will be just
great!
But I had no way to know this, till someone told me, and frankly,
considering how much the TI-like keyboard made me think marketing
had taken over, I was rather expecting the worst. I think you may
have forgotten how much more you know about this machine than we
do, and ignorance can be scary. It certainly looks like that was
an issue here.
Melissa Reid
Urs Baumeler
[...stuff deleted...]
> while on the other end, you can have a person with a very low IQ and be very
> smart about certain things, like a Monosavant ( Idiot Savant )...
> so i would think Jean-Y is like this...
Now you're in my killfile. I don't want to read more of this nonsense. You went
way too far. Bye.
- Urs
Samuel Hocevar
>TinyWanda wrote:
>> while on the other end, you can have a person with a very low IQ and be
>> very smart about certain things, like a Monosavant ( Idiot Savant )...
>> so i would think Jean-Y is like this...
>
>Now you're in my killfile. I don't want to read more of this nonsense.
>You went way too far. Bye.
Perhaps this was some other form of humour we can't understand *g*
The former xenophobic remarks didn't bother me a lot as a French
citizen, because they seemed childish and I could understand he
was angry towards HP because the HP59g didn't quite meet his own
expectations, and anyway their only effect was to show what a fool
tiniwanda really was.
However, I feel very sad for Jean-Yves because his position at HP
does not allow him to answer to such offending remarks. I really hate
the way Tinywanda attacked one single person with such eagerness.
Tinywanda, I have no idea whether Americans are smarter than French,
I can imagine a lot of Americans are smarter than me, many are smarter
than Jean-Yves, but I am afraid you do not belong to this category. Hey,
if you were that bright, wouldn't have HP contacted you to lead the ACO
team and design the new calculator ? Why did you refuse ?
I don't know if you'll read this, but you can be sure I will never
forgive you. Do not even try to answer to this post, you are in my
killfile since two days, and for a long time.
--
Sam.
Erwann ABALEA
> Okay, let's now try to answer to your questions:
>
> For what I have seen so far is:
>
> 1-I hate the color
> 2-I hate the position of the ENTER key
> 3-Why did they put the / and the Z on the same key
> 4-Why do they use the same CPU
> 5-Why did they remove the IR
> 6-Why did they remove the extension port
>
> Let's try to answer some questions...
[Loooong answers deleted...]
Well.... Thanks....
I'd like to see it... Sadly, I hadn't the time to come at the OpenHP party
(I'm in Paris' suburb, but I've got a lot of work).
Anyway.... Just another question.... ;-)
How far do you estimate the work/time needed to produce a final version?
;-))
Thanks again for these explanations.
[Au fait! Si vous avez des docs du style "Voyage au centre de la HP49", ou
équivalents (j'ai plusieurs bouquins de ce genre, j'ai commencé par la
HP28), serait-il possible de les annoncer?]
--
Erwann ABALEA
eab...@certplus.com
John H Meyers
> I think that the problem most people were having
> was the lack of detailed info.
Indeed, if the only released information were more general,
merely indicating what capabilities were to be expected
(as in the promo in the PDF file), then these detailed
questions might not have arisen; however, once too much
detail (keyboard) was shown, then everyone was in the
same position as a newbie who is trying to get answers
without ever reading the manual, and the same flurry of
dumb and panicky questions has been pouring in,
for which one answer might be: WFTDMA
(wait for the damned manual, already :)
Bruce Horrocks
[snip]
> Why does it continue to sell so well? Here are a few theories:
[good points snipped]
> * Like all 10C series calculators, it has a nice solid built-like-a-brick
> feel that clamshell models can't quite match. It has become part of the
> well-dressed business uniform - easily distinguished from cheap
> calculators due to its layout.
If by layout you mean the landscape format then hear, hear. By far the
most distinctive characteristic...
Regards,
--
Bruce Horrocks (...speaking for myself)
EASAMS Ltd, Waters Edge, Riverside Way (Watchmoor Park)
Camberley, Surrey GU15 3PD.
Email: Bruce.H...@gecm.com GNET: 832 3032
Tel: 01276 686777 Fax: 01276 686623
John H Meyers
is a simple, sturdy angle stand, e.g. folding Pachrahe (top quality)
or coated wire type; can then attack with both hands, and the "+" key
(lower-right corner on HP48) does *not* tip the calc over :)
Looking at my lowly Casio fx-6300G, I still don't understand one thing,
however: how do they make a nice-looking keyboard with all-plastic,
individual keys, where you can readily feel the "break-away" effect,
where the key-tops have "negative" curvature (fit your fingertips
so that the latter do not tend to slide off the keys), and yet
so easy to press (much less force than 48G, or any other HP calc);
is it going to wear out on me? [not a hint of it yet].
There are even 50 keys on that little Casio, by golly!
There must be something inherently wrong with it, or else surely,
even TI would have thought to make something like that, wouldn't they?
-------------------------------------------------------
Establish world peace now: <http://www.kosovopeace.org>
<http://www.natural-law.org>
Consciousness-based education: <http://www.mum.edu>
sasq...@hotmail.com
tiny...@aol.com.ReMvThs (TinyWanda) wrote:
> I must say that I was a little disappointed with the 49 when the early
> info came out...but...
> -------------------------:: o
> i find it VERY suspecious that about 20 posts now, by allegedly 20
different
> posters have used this line VERBATUM...!!!
>
> i don't think any of these are real people...
> it's some kind of SCAM by either HP or those French Bast*rds...!!!
Son of a bitch !!!
I am not french and i don't work for HP but i find that you really suck
!!!
What a pity what such guy belongs to the HP community.
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---
John H Meyers
> I've made an example of a possible 49 key layout - as I would like it
> (just a few copy and paste's, dont blame me on key labels ;-).
Eureka -- I've got it!
Has everyone seen those puzzles where you re-arrange sliding tiles?
(the ones which came before Rubik's cube :)
Well, if only the keyboard were made so that you could slide each
key around to wherever you want it (and perhaps also turn it,
to one of four different functions which could be on any single key),
well, think of the possibilities! I'd like to have extra Enter keys
on each side, so that one would be near the 1,4,7 and the other
could be near the 3,6,9 -- and maybe a third one, above 7,8,9
-- after all, it's pressed much more often, maybe after any digit.
This might be the very reason for the rubber keyboard --
to s-t-r-e-t-c-h in case new functions have to be added later ;)
Whatever happened to the key overlay slots? Overlays may have
gone out of production some years ago, but those slots were sure
useful for helping to locate where to drill out rivets
(are there still rivets?)
Has Digitalis announced a speed-up module yet?
How about a 20MB memory upgrade, for radiomail?
VeryNiceGuy (Pacific)
>
...> are on the stack and that there is
> a variable X containing a number.
...
how about this:-
check the current directory
for the existence of 'X'.
if it exists,
store it in some temp variable,
purge it,
do the doodledidoo that needs to be done,
then restore the 'X'
?
--
-------------------------------------------------------
Every dark cloud has a silver lining, but
lightning kills hundreds of people each year
who are trying to find it.
-------------------------------------------------------
this is not original by VNG, but i think it's cool
Dave Arnett
TinyWanda wrote:
>
> ???
> there are ALOT of posts to this thread...
> ...wussy posts saying...
> "i'm so sorry that i didn't think the 49 was so wonderful,
> you've changed my mind, where can i buy one..."
>
> you will note: these are all NEW post address'.
> they have never posted here before...???
>
> they are FAKE...!!!
> IT'S A SSSCCCAAAMMM...!!!
>
So, my friend, let me see if I understand you correctly...
HP is such a bunch of Bozos that it cannot even manage a product
announcement. However, it is full of such Savants that it starts
to create bogus web identities a couple of weeks before the buffonery
hits the fan, and then instigates a systematic disinformation
campaign. TinyWanda, have you been listening to Art Bell replays
between the regular shows?
I imagine you know that Bob Strand has posted 13 messages to this
newsgroup, starting back on May 15th. Eight were purely informational
in nature. Four were quite derogatory toward HP. One was the
single-sentence apology to which you refer. This doesn't sound
like an HP plant to me.
One thread that he started on the 21st was quite derogatory to some
folks (absent any HP affiliation) in the way it described the general
appearance of the '49. Is that what got him on your hit list?
If so, I agree that the thread was tasteless and that Bob deserved
to be sternly chastised for his insensitivity.
If I recall, you live up here in the Evergreen state. We've had
an unnerving amount of blue sky recently, and a few days without
rain can really wear on a person. Though it seems unnatural to
Washingtonians, perhaps a picnic in the park or a long walk without
an umbrella could sooth your clearly frazzled spirits. Use sunscreen
first, to lessen the shock.
Sproogles!
Dave.
-----
I don't speak for HP when I post here.
Keith Farmer
TinyWanda wrote:
> STOOPID...!
> also: this is old news...but i find in INFINITELY irritating that HP has VERY
> METHODICALLY decided to create a calculator that will somehow draw users away
> from TI, by making the 49 LOOK LIKE a TI calculator...!!!
> THIS IS PURE HERESY in a very disagreeable kind of way...
> that's just AMAZINGLY STUPID...!!!
> INCREDIBLY SAD...that i CAN NEVER-EVER IN MILLION ZILLION YEARS OF CONSTANT
> UNREMITTING EFFORT SAY ENOUGH BAD THINGS ABOUT THE FRENCH TEAM THAT CREATED
> THIS CALCULATOR.
AND P33PULL WUNDER WHY A@L HA$ $UCH A BAD R3P ON THE N3T?
> the end.
We could wish..
KJ
>i CAN NEVER-EVER IN MILLION ZILLION YEARS OF CONSTANT
>UNREMITTING EFFORT SAY ENOUGH BAD THINGS ABOUT THE FRENCH TEAM THAT CREATED
>THIS CALCULATOR.
Well I have absolutely nothing against the French
team who did the software. I don't care if the design
team was from the the US, France, Australia, or MARS!
What does nationality have to do with it?
The number of French coders who have written assembly
and SysRPL software for the 48 series is tremendous.
They obviously know the Saturn very well.
If your gripe is with the design decisions and what was
expected (this is my complaint too), so be it.
But I really hate to see this newsgroup turn into a
United States vs France war! Come on people,
we are all better than this, are we not?
KJ
julien meyer
Keith Farmer a écrit dans le message <374B8269...@pacbell.net>...
>
>
>JEEjohn wrote:
>
>> PPPPS: Since it's blue, do we get to call it Big Blue?
Maybe just because this is a F-Zero(X) © Nintendo track..
--
Julien
Keith Farmer
> where the key-tops have "negative" curvature (fit your fingertips
> so that the latter do not tend to slide off the keys), and yet
> so easy to press (much less force than 48G, or any other HP calc);
I never particularly liked those keys. They felt really insecure, like
the click-less pc keyboards.
Keith Farmer
John H Meyers wrote:
> Whatever happened to the key overlay slots? Overlays may have
Actually, I transferred my SX's overlay to my GX, the one showing all
the shifted alpha characters. It's something that I'd sorely miss on
the 49.
Keith Farmer
> If I recall, you live up here in the Evergreen state. We've had
I admit, s/he sounds like someone who never left Centralia (run! flee!
while you have the chance!)
James Lothian
Samuel Hocevar wrote:
>
> On 26 May 1999 03:53:42 GMT, JEEjohn <jee...@aol.com> wrote:
> >PPS: Am I the only one who is starting to find TinyWanda a little
> >more than irritating now?
>
> No.
> --
> Sam.
Same here. He/she/it should switch to decaf.
James
Keith Farmer
> i live in Bremerton...!!!
You've never lived in Centralia? I guess the disease is spreading to
the suburbs. Odd direction, considering Centralia's rural..
It might explain your paranoia, living near a Naval Yard.
TinyWanda
announcement. However, it is full of such Savants that it starts
to create bogus web identities a couple of weeks before the buffonery hits the
fan, and then instigates a systematic disinformation campaign. TinyWanda, have
you been listening to Art Bell replays between the regular shows?
there...see...!!!...it's not so hard to understand, you've got it EXACTLY...!!!
the trouble with Art Bell is that whenever he starts to get too close to the
truth, he backs off...he's not nearly provocative enough for me...!!!
and it's not the sunny weather that wearing away at me...it's that the whole
damn world is going to hell in a handbasket...!!!
if there was one single thing in the world that was genuinely admirable, maybe
that would be enough for me...but there isn't, and now one of the last flickers
of dignity and quality have thrown it their hat and said...
"Mediocrity...here we come...!!!"
Hewlett Packard
TinyWanda
-----------------------------:: o
you're being too kind actually...
i live in Bremerton...!!!
TinyWanda
expected (this is my complaint too), so be it.
well...i would be will conceed that the actual 'design' of the 49 came from
some unknown source, presumably they're hiding under a table somewhere...
but Jean-Y has said in no uncertain terms that he/the-French had worked on the
layout of the Keyboard, which is the definitive feature that is making it most
closely resemble a TI generation type machine...
the blame would seem to lie there...??? (!)
Jemfinch02
Oh my gosh...is that the one with the tiny (20 by 30 pixels or so) graphing
seciton on the left, and 400 steps of program memory?
Just wondering...I used a little casio graphing calculator in middle school for
a bit
Jeremy
------------------------------------
If i ever forget to capitalize a proper noun, forgive me. i have ee cummings
in my ancestry.
My ICQ # is 28153190. My AIM/AOL name is either jemfinch02 or Cassius80.
Have a good day, and good luck in your endeavors!
David Hanon
I used to find you amusing, really, you gave me good laughs quite
a few times, but you have become quite tasteless and offending,
lately.
David
--
David Hanon phone : 32-2-650.55.29
ULB - CP 231 fax : 32-2-650.57.67
B-1050 Brussels, e-mail: David...@ulb.ac.be
Belgium WWW : http://poseidon.ulb.ac.be/groupe/dh/
TinyWanda
I used to find you amusing, really, you gave me good laughs quite
a few times, but you have become quite tasteless and offending,
lately.
-----------------------------:: o
well...it's because this allegedly new 49 has just completely crushed me...
i used to think of HP as one of the last unshakable pyramids of innovation and
qualtiy,
and now it's stooped to immitating TI.
there are no gods left to offend.
Ed Hurtley
TinyWanda <tiny...@aol.com.ReMvThs> wrote in message
news:19990525211711...@ng-fp1.aol.com...
> ???
> there are ALOT of posts to this thread...
> ...wussy posts saying...
> "i'm so sorry that i didn't think the 49 was so wonderful,
> you've changed my mind, where can i buy one..."
> you will note: these are all NEW post address'.
> they have never posted here before...???
All right, then how about me? I will admit that when I first saw the HP49G,
I thought (and posted that) it was horrible. Yeah, there was a little
badly-translated French information, but it was mostly the look. I think
that's what got most people.
Now, after reading more from J-Y and others, I have come to the conclusion
that the software is much better than I anticipated. While I still don't
like the layout and color scheme, I'll get used to them in time.
In other words. . . I'm so sorry that I didn't think the 49 was so
wonderful, you've changed my mind, where can I buy one?
> they are FAKE...!!!
> IT'S A SSSCCCAAAMMM...!!!
Grow up.
Ed Hurtley
Keith Farmer <far...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:374C960F...@pacbell.net...
> TinyWanda wrote:
> > i live in Bremerton...!!!
>
> You've never lived in Centralia? I guess the disease is spreading to
> the suburbs. Odd direction, considering Centralia's rural..
Boy, as an Oregonian, I thought *Californians* were bad... Now do I have to
worry about idiot Washingtonians invading from the North as well?
Oh well, at least the urban Seattlites are okay...
David J Porter
>
> Many thanks, Jean-Yves, for your posting.
>
> > I'm sorry for this extremely long message, but as a proud HP48 user,
> > everything you've written here hurt. And it hurts a lot.
>
> Please be assured that all those who wrote tactlessly did so without
> thinking of how it would impact you (you who are, after all, more
> fanatical about the HP48 than any of the HP49-detractors could ever
> be). After reading your posting, I'm sure that they will either agree
> to wait and see this new wonder, or they will continue to advertise
> their ignorance.
Plus the naming of the new calc as the '49' is (IMHO) more than a little
hint that this machine isn't meant to be a giant leap in design that
some people in this ng have been advocating.
> > I will probably get trouble for everything I've written here ...
>
> I hope not. It needed to be said.
seconded!
Jean-Yves (if you're still there), something that I'm particularly
interested in is what information and tools are going to be released to
the developer community.
I saw the post WRT an emulator in the ng, but is their going to be an
'official' HP sanctioned emulator available? If so, is this going to be
a Wintel only endeavour? What other external tools are likely to come
out of HP, or is this being left as an exercise for third parties?
--
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he
is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe and not
make messes in the house.
-- Lazarus Long, "Time Enough for Love"
Keith Farmer
> Boy, as an Oregonian, I thought *Californians* were bad... Now do I have to
> worry about idiot Washingtonians invading from the North as well?
>
> Oh well, at least the urban Seattlites are okay...
Actually, I feel much safer in the middle of the Tenderloin in SF than I
do in Seattle (or Centralia). Californians are okay if they don't have
cars or attitude. Granted, that can sometimes be difficult to find...
Ever notice that WA, ID, and OR as a group tend to have higher than
average numbers of sociopaths (Bundy, for example?)
John King
It's the weather. It's also why Starbucks does so well here -
antidepressant.
Keith Farmer wrote in message <374D7777...@pacbell.net>...
John King
now.
In fact, look over recent history from 1900 on. Look at various products.
See, they all have cheapened. Nylons use to last forever, now they don't -
by design. Light bulbs now fail in 2-3 weeks - by design. WordPerfect use
to have FREE UNLIMITED 800 number support with kind service reps -- gone
with the wind.
TinyWanda wrote in message <19990527051322...@ng-fz1.aol.com>...
TinyWanda
worry about idiot Washingtonians invading from the North as well?
Oh well, at least the urban Seattlites are okay...
------------------:: o
Curiously...
i used to live in Eugene...but they kicked me out, literally.
really.
Keith Farmer
> It's the weather. It's also why Starbucks does so well here -
But I *liked* the weather...
What would a bunch of scandinavians need with an anti-depressant,
anyway? "Scandinavian Humor and Other Myths" is jollity enough for us
people of herring-tage.
WTStorey
>TinyWanda wrote:
>
>[...stuff deleted...]
>
>> while on the other end, you can have a person with a very low IQ and be
>very
>> smart about certain things, like a Monosavant ( Idiot Savant )...
>> so i would think Jean-Y is like this...
>
>Now you're in my killfile. I don't want to read more of this nonsense. You
>went
>way too far. Bye.
I'm not French, but I agree with the sentiment exactly. Can someone explain to
a relative web neophyte how to create a Kill File using AOL???
Thanks
WilliamTStorey
To Err is Human; to really foul things up requires a computer
steven...@my-deja.com
"bitte_nicht_stören"@danke wrote:
> steven...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> ...> are on the stack and that there is
> > a variable X containing a number.
> ...
>
> how about this:-
> check the current directory
> for the existence of 'X'.
> if it exists,
> store it in some temp variable,
> purge it,
> do the doodledidoo that needs to be done,
> then restore the 'X'
>
> ?
If the derivative-command would only look
in the current directory ...
But it searches the whole directory-tree
upwards.
E.g. [HOME]
X=1.6
[FST_DIR]
[SND_DIR]
...
take the deriv. here
won't work, 1.6 is still substituted for X.
Searching the whole directory tree upwards
for X and storing (tempor.) all occurences ...?
Of course, it's possible to do it this way,
but I would like to have something more
straightforward.
regards, Steven Ahlig
* thank you for thinking about it
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
JEEjohn
<red...@escape.com> writes:
>>An example: in the 70s there was a company that produced a
>>scientific calculator that did not have scientific notation.
>They
>>simply moved the decimal point around. The user was expected
>>to keep track of how many times the decimal point shifted from
>>the left end to the right end or the right end to left end
>>(i.e. powers of 10^10). It sounds stupid, silly, and idiotic
>today,
>>but with all the slide rule users in the 70s..........?
>>
>>John Edry
>>
>
>Do you know the name of the company and/or the model of the
>calculator?
>
>
Sorry, I'm a little late on this, because I had to search for it.
From an ad that occurred in Jan 1974, that was republished in
"The International Calculator Collector" issue # 17, Summer, 1997.
The ad is for JS&A National Sales Group, announcing the
"NEW Lloyd's Accumatic electronic slide rule - the first real
alternative to the Hewlett Packard HP-35".
Scanned in with an OCR, and fixed up:
Hats off to Hewlett Packard! This remarkable company managed to hold very own
market position for almost two years selling its $300 so $400 slide rule
calculators directly to the consumer.
But good old American competition has produced what we feel to be a better
alternative than Hewlett Packard's famous HP-35. And it costs considerably
less! It's called the Lloyd's Accumatic electronic slide rule.
MORE FEATURES THAN THE HP-35
The Lloyd's Accumatic has features that the Hewlett Packard's HP-35 does not
have. For example, it has a fully addressal memory which permits you to store
calculations for later use or recall. It automatically squares a number and
simultaneously adds it to memory - ideal for statistical applications. It gives
you answers in radians or degrees - a great help to civil and electrical
engineers. The Accumatic also has common antilogarithm 10^x which the HP-35
does not have.
ADDRESSABLE MEMORY VS
SCIENTIFIC NOTATION
The Lloyd's Accumatic has more features than the HP-35 with the exception of
scientific notation. When the Accumatic was designed, Lloyd's engineers
considered a fully addressable memory to be of greater value to engineers than
scientific notation which they felt was a luxury similar to power seats on an
automobile. Scientific notation on a calculator is not really necessary in most
engineering and math applications especially when given memory as alternative.
WRAP-AROUND DECIMAL
When using the four basic functions, the Accumatic has what is called
"wrap-around decimal." When the answer in whole numbers it greater than eight,
the decimal will move eight places to the left of its actual position and an
overflow indicator will light up. To continue your calculations simply clear
the indicator light, note the number of places your decimal moved to the left,
and continue to calculate. The calculations can therefore be carried on
infinitely without the necessity of scientific notation.
So, what do you guys and gals think?
John Edry