HP 48GX and NASA: Fact or Fiction ?
James
University of Auckland, New Zealand.
We've recently begun marketing the range of HP Scientific and Business
calculators here to students and are getting a lot of interest here - particularly
from engineering students in the 48 range.
I'm not sure if it's an urban legend, but one student told me that NASA Shuttle
astronauts were issued with HP 48GX's as backup computers if the Shuttles'
primary and secondary computer systems malfunctions
Does anybody know about this - I'd be sincerely gratetful for any information
about this or other anecdotes about the amazing things HP 4x's are being
used for.
Please email directly if this type of information is not appropriate with the
themes of this newsgroups - and my apologies if this is the case.
Thanks in anticipation
James Barnes
Hewlett Packard Product Manager
Campus Computers
University of Auckland
e-mail: j.ba...@auckland.ac.nz
www.campuscomputers.auckland.ac.nz
Mark Wilson
> I'm not sure if it's an urban legend, but one student told me that NASA Shuttle
> astronauts were issued with HP 48GX's as backup computers if the Shuttles'
> primary and secondary computer systems malfunctions
>
> Does anybody know about this -
This is an urban legend created by our most celebrated (medicated?;)
official "not speaking for HP but I was on the team" guy, Dave Arnett.
The truth in this matter concerning the hP-48 I don't know, but there is
a well publicized picture of the space shuttle that probably started this
whole thing. The picture I speak of is a poster of the shuttle
Columbia's "dashboard". It was meant to show the complex flight controls
in the cockpit. In the upper left corner of this poster, (if memory
serves) two HP-41s stacked on top of each other, are clearly visible.
Apparently the shuttle astronauts had their HP's for that time handy just
in case (remember, the shuttle computer system is pretty whimpy by
today's standard). I'm pretty sure an HP-48 has flown on the shuttle,
but only NASA knows for sure!
--
Mark Wilson
"El Diablo sabe mas por viejo que por Diablo."
terence
exactly from Casio, hope they do not copy the curcuits too.) as backup! No
wonder why NASA gets so bad reputation in recent years, and Nasa blames
the budget cut!
James (j.ba...@auckland.ac.nz) wrote:
: I work as the HP Product Manager for a Computer Business run by the
: University of Auckland, New Zealand.
: We've recently begun marketing the range of HP Scientific and Business
: calculators here to students and are getting a lot of interest here - particularly
: from engineering students in the 48 range.
: I'm not sure if it's an urban legend, but one student told me that NASA Shuttle
: astronauts were issued with HP 48GX's as backup computers if the Shuttles'
: primary and secondary computer systems malfunctions
: Does anybody know about this - I'd be sincerely gratetful for any information
Maurice Hendrix
<mailto:j.ba...@auckland.ac.nz> to write:
>I'm not sure if it's an urban legend, but one student told me that NASA Shuttle
>astronauts were issued with HP 48GX's as backup computers if the Shuttles'
>primary and secondary computer systems malfunctions
NO WAY! The 48GX can never be used as a backup to the Shuttle's primary and
secondary computers. The programming on these babies is much too complex
*even for a 48GX. Although it is very well possible that astronauts are
issued 48GX's for their work onboard. Anyway, the changes of the primary
*and* secondary computers failing together are very, very small.
--
Maurice Hendrix
I'll shake you into a kitten, that I will!
- Alice, Through the Looking-Glass
- It is better to have men ask why you have no statue, than why you have one.
Tom Conte
>James wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure if it's an urban legend, but one student told me that NASA Shuttle
>> astronauts were issued with HP 48GX's as backup computers if the Shuttles'
>> primary and secondary computer systems malfunctions
>>
>
>official "not speaking for HP but I was on the team" guy, Dave Arnett.
>The truth in this matter concerning the hP-48 I don't know, but there is
>a well publicized picture of the space shuttle that probably started this
>whole thing. The picture I speak of is a poster of the shuttle
>Columbia's "dashboard". It was meant to show the complex flight controls
>in the cockpit. In the upper left corner of this poster, (if memory
>serves) two HP-41s stacked on top of each other, are clearly visible.
>Apparently the shuttle astronauts had their HP's for that time handy just
>in case (remember, the shuttle computer system is pretty whimpy by
>today's standard). I'm pretty sure an HP-48 has flown on the shuttle,
>but only NASA knows for sure!
Mark,
Not true that only NASA knows. Two HP-41's flew on the first shuttle
mission, as reported in HP Key Notes v5n1 (Jan-Apr 1981). Each ran
a dedicated program: 1 for "Center of Gravity" and one for "Acquisition
of Signal". To quote further:
"...These programs were loaded into the calculators shortly
before launch. The Center of Gravity program was used
before reentry into the earth's atmosphere to compute the
shuttle's present center of gravity and amount of fuel
to be burned in each tank to reach the required center
of gravity for reentry. This center of gravity program
was termed "flight critical" by NASA and necessitated
extensive pre-launch testing of the calculators.
"The other program, the Acquisition of Signal program
ran continually in the secod calculator, starting at
launch, so it could display at any time the next ground
station that Columbia [the shuttle] could contact, when
it would be in contact, the duration of that contact,
and which frequency (UHF or S-band) could be used. And,
thanks to Continuous Memory, the calculator did not have
to be on during the whole flight.
"You will be interested to know that NASA is committed
to using HP-41C's in furute shuttle missions, and that
it plans more exotic applications. One likely program
will let the HP-41C compute the "navigational" commands
to be given to a mechanical arm so it can reach out and
grab a nearby satelite. Another program would take, as
input data, coordinates of the shuttle's big hatch and
determine if it is closed."
Furthermore, in a later PPCJ (I'd have to search to find it) it
was reported that the 41C's had been replaced with 41CX's.
Given the above documented facts, I would not be surprised if
NASA continued to upgrade the 41C's to the 48-series. So your
dis of Dave Arnett as a "lunatic" is a little inappropriate.
>--
>Mark Wilson
>
>"El Diablo sabe mas por viejo que por Diablo."
Tom
terence
say is true. And I really think if you are not a HP manager, you may not
even bother to ask this "strange" question!
Maybe you want to believe it were true, then who care!!!
terence (ter...@news-server.engin.umich.edu) wrote:
: They use the HP48GX as main computer, radio shack calaulators (those copy
: exactly from Casio, hope they do not copy the curcuits too.) as backup!
Besides, it is true that the Nasa has bad reputation in recent years, at
least what I read from the news. The space shuttle exploded (actually
their reputation was bad before this event, therefore they didn't want to
delay the lauch, even though many engineers told them not to!!!), the
billion dollars satelite lost in space for some reasons. And they really
blame on the government cuts their budget!
No wonder why NASA gets so bad reputation in recent years, and Nasa
blames : the budget cut!
: James (j.ba...@auckland.ac.nz) wrote:
: : I work as the HP Product Manager for a Computer Business run by the
: : University of Auckland, New Zealand.
: : We've recently begun marketing the range of HP Scientific and Business
: : calculators here to students and are getting a lot of interest here - particularly
: : from engineering students in the 48 range.
: : I'm not sure if it's an urban legend, but one student told me that NASA Shuttle
: : astronauts were issued with HP 48GX's as backup computers if the Shuttles'
: : primary and secondary computer systems malfunctions
: : Does anybody know about this - I'd be sincerely gratetful for any information
Michael Heinz
>NO WAY! The 48GX can never be used as a backup to the Shuttle's primary and
>secondary computers. The programming on these babies is much too complex
>*even for a 48GX. Although it is very well possible that astronauts are
>issued 48GX's for their work onboard. Anyway, the changes of the primary
>*and* secondary computers failing together are very, very small.
Bzzzt. The shuttle computers were designed in the early 1970s. They
only have, what 16k of ram each? That's the reason NASA has to
postpone the launch if the weather changes - they have to reload the
computers with new weather data each time.
Back in the mid-80's (pre-Challenger) I did see an article that the
astronauts carried HP41's with custom ROMs as a final backup in case
the computers completely failed. I have no idea if they've upgraded
to 48s.
Michael Heinz, mhe...@ssw.com
Righter of Wrongs, Doer of Fairly Great Deeds and Tweaker of
the Occasional Nose.
"The Borg assimilated me, and all I got was this lousy t-shirt!"
- madsci...@dark.mountain.stronghold
Tom Conte
>m...@cray-3.xs4all.nl (Maurice Hendrix) wrote:
>
>>NO WAY! The 48GX can never be used as a backup to the Shuttle's primary and
>>secondary computers. The programming on these babies is much too complex
>>*even for a 48GX. Although it is very well possible that astronauts are
>>issued 48GX's for their work onboard. Anyway, the changes of the primary
>>*and* secondary computers failing together are very, very small.
>
>Bzzzt. The shuttle computers were designed in the early 1970s. They
>only have, what 16k of ram each? That's the reason NASA has to
>postpone the launch if the weather changes - they have to reload the
>computers with new weather data each time.
>
>Back in the mid-80's (pre-Challenger) I did see an article that the
>astronauts carried HP41's with custom ROMs as a final backup in case
>the computers completely failed. I have no idea if they've upgraded
>to 48s.
As per my earlier post, the HP Key Notes that discusses the HP-41Cs
on the shuttle flights (later replaced as noted in PPCJ by HP-41CXs),
repeated several times that the calculators were not used to back up
the shuttle computers. They served complimentary functions not covered
by the computers. They were, however, "mission critical" (quote).
The only modifications NASA made was to change the keyboard overlay
plastic as the plastic HP used can "outgas" when the pressure is
lowered (as is done before an EVA).
Tom
terence
: The NetCensor allowed James
: <mailto:j.ba...@auckland.ac.nz> to write:
If you said it issues to astronauts, then it is reasonable to believe!!!
: *even for a 48GX. Although it is very well possible that astronauts are
: issued 48GX's for their work onboard. Anyway, the changes of the primary
: *and* secondary computers failing together are very, very small.
: --
terence
really use that, then maybe they can consider to use computer notebook,
eg IBM thinkpad. I see no reason to use this calc. At least not use as
backup the computer. God, you must be out of your mind.
ps. I don't even no where your doc from. Even they are true, you may
miss something very important, who know, who care!
: "...These programs were loaded into the calculators shortly
Tom Conte
>He is talking about now or not more than 3 years ago 48"GX".
You didn't read my whole post. Please re-read it. My point was that
the "urban legend" had some basis in truth. HP calculators were used on
NASA Space Shuttle flights. (Incidentally, an HP-65 was used on the very
last Apollo flight.) They may or may not be used now. However, (now
follow along with me here), there is a chance that the past predicts
the present. That is significantly different from saying the "urban
legend" has no basis in fact. (Still with me?)
> If Nasa
>really use that, then maybe they can consider to use computer notebook,
>eg IBM thinkpad. I see no reason to use this calc. At least not use as
>backup the computer. God, you must be out of your mind.
The two 41Cs were not backup computers, they performed complimentary
functions. Please either read the text you are replying to to deduce
this or see my later post. Also, a calculator is not a computer
(happily so, thank you very much).
>
>ps. I don't even no where your doc from.
*Sigh* This is hardly worth a reply, but...
If by "doc" you are referring to my PhD, then: I found it in the middle
of a corn field in central Illinois.
If by "doc" you are referring to the publication, HP Key Notes, then:
it was published by the Hewlett-Packard Corvallis Division (formerly
the Palo Alto Advanced Products Division). A good library should have
them. Note that since it was from Hewlett-Packard, it is authoritative.
>Even they are true, you may
>miss something very important, who know, who care!
I certainly agree.
My, I'd expect more from the august University of Michigan.
Tom
terence
about the "original man, hp manager's" post, not yours! I understand you are
talking about the past, Nasa might use HPxx, I don't know.
But the "original man said"
..... one student told me that NASA Shuttle astronauts were issued with HP
48GX's as backup computers if the Shuttles' primary and secondary computer
systems malfunctions.
I think he is wondering whether 48"GX" has been using in space shuttle 3
years ago at most because GX was released in 93. And "my opinion" is based
on what the hp manager said. I hope I understand correctly, feel free to
give any comment.
*And I just followup the wrong post, sorry.*
: You didn't read my whole post. Please re-read it. My point was that
terence
But, I refer to the original man posts, not yours. I (IMO) found very
difficult to believe it will use as "backup computer".
: You didn't read my whole post. Please re-read it. My point was that
: the "urban legend" had some basis in truth. HP calculators were used on
: NASA Space Shuttle flights. (Incidentally, an HP-65 was used on the very
: last Apollo flight.) They may or may not be used now. However, (now
: follow along with me here), there is a chance that the past predicts
: the present. That is significantly different from saying the "urban
: legend" has no basis in fact. (Still with me?)
: > If Nasa
: >really use that, then maybe they can consider to use computer notebook,
: >eg IBM thinkpad. I see no reason to use this calc. At least not use as
: >backup the computer. God, you must be out of your mind.
: The two 41Cs were not backup computers, they performed complimentary
: functions. Please either read the text you are replying to to deduce
: this or see my later post. Also, a calculator is not a computer
: (happily so, thank you very much).
: >
: >ps. I don't even know where your doc from.
: *Sigh* This is hardly worth a reply, but...
: If by "doc" you are referring to my PhD, then: I found it in the middle
: of a corn field in central Illinois.
Do you mean in the Library of central Illinois?!
You are giving very details documents. But, as I said I am hard to believe
it is using 48GX now as backup computer.
OK, I appologize that I seem to suggest you made up something. The doc is
from HP but, I still find hard to believe to use a calc in space shuttle
for "very critical works" even in 70s (I don't know if it is in 70s, I
guessed since I remember the first one launched in 1968). They can built a
space shuttle, they cannot built a decent computer! Maybe not, I don't
know. Anyway, if you said they carried HPxx in space shuttle for some
reasons, then it is still reasonable. But, I believe Hpxx is not
responsible for those important works as the computer in space shuttle.
: If by "doc" you are referring to the publication, HP Key Notes, then:
: it was published by the Hewlett-Packard Corvallis Division (formerly
: the Palo Alto Advanced Products Division). A good library should have
: them. Note that since it was from Hewlett-Packard, it is authoritative.
: >Even they are true, you may
: >miss something very important, who know, who care!
Sorry, I don't mean. I just said that you may miss some important points.
: I certainly agree.
: My, I'd expect more from the august University of Michigan.
I believe UM knows nothing about that!!! But, "a lot of" aerospace
students/professors around the world may use the "48" calc to do their
homeworks/papers though. Someday they may use 48GX (at least at the
beginning of design, it is very possible!) to design a jet too. I think we
can said that a jet or space shuttle whatever is design by 48!
Anyway, You should call NASA to confirm whether hpxx used in Apollo as HP
said in the document.
Best Regard.
: Tom
Mark Wilson
> >This is an urban legend created by our most celebrated (medicated?;)
> >official "not speaking for HP but I was on the team" guy, Dave Arnett.SNIP
> Given the above documented facts, I would not be surprised if
> NASA continued to upgrade the 41C's to the 48-series. So your
> dis of Dave Arnett as a "lunatic" is a little inappropriate.
>
> >--
> >Mark Wilson
> >
> >"El Diablo sabe mas por viejo que por Diablo."
>
> Tom
Sorry to raise your hackles, Tom, but no "dis" of the Dave was intended.
I'm sure our very own "I work at HP and was on the development team for
your calculators but company policy forces me to remain 'unofficial'" guy
has more than enough sense of humor to take the jab as intended. I
really miss Dave's humour on this group; he was in rare form about six
months ago! Besides, reffering to someone as celebrated, a compliment,
and then making a joke in winky parentheticals, well accepted netiquette,
is hardly "dissing". For future reference, when I am "dissing", I
exclusively use the word "putz".
Sorry for your confusion;) <-get it? A joke...nevermind...
James
>I'm not sure if it's an urban legend, but one student told me that NASA Shuttle
>astronauts were issued with HP 48GX's as backup computers if the Shuttles'
>primary and secondary computer systems malfunctions
>
>Does anybody know about this - I'd be sincerely gratetful for any information
>about this or other anecdotes about the amazing things HP 4x's are being
>used for.
I just wanted to thank Tom Conte for contributing something worthwhile
Michael Heinz
>As per my earlier post, the HP Key Notes that discusses the HP-41Cs
>on the shuttle flights (later replaced as noted in PPCJ by HP-41CXs),
>repeated several times that the calculators were not used to back up
>the shuttle computers.
That post must not have made it to my server. Shrug.
-----------------------------
Michael Heinz, mhe...@ssw.com
Chris Cothrun
different perspective (Not that the HP tech notes aren't enough).
I just toured the National Air and Space Museum in Washington DC a
couple of days back and was amused to see a HP-41 on display with a
custom overlay and a caption about it's use on the early shuttle
flights. No mention of replacements or any of the other main issues
previously discussed.
Chris Cothrun
cot...@ix.netcom.com
Niels Groth
Hello James, about your last message, I have following to remark:
jb> I'm not sure if it's an urban legend, but one student told me that
jb> NASA
jb> Shuttle astronauts were issued with HP 48GX's as backup computers if the
jb> Shuttles' primary and secondary computer systems malfunctions
jb>
jb> Does anybody know about this - I'd be sincerely gratetful for any
jb> information about this or other anecdotes about the amazing things HP
jb> 4x's are being used for.
I've heard about this story a few years ago, but for the first shuttle
flight (1980 or 1981 ?) they would have used a HP 41 I think.
Niels Groth
IN: Ni...@krypta.snafu.de
FIDO: 2:2410/208.22
---------- Please press RESET for a better life ! ----------
* Origin: Greetings from Berlin / Germany ---- Press ON-A-F for
(2:2410/208.22)
Skiing94
Sure Nasa used them, I use them myself everyday to go in school bcose I
don't drive !!!
Dave Arnett
Replying by e-mail and post to c.s.hp48:
j.ba...@auckland.ac.nz (James) wrote:
>I work as the HP Product Manager for a Computer Business run by the
>University of Auckland, New Zealand.
>
>We've recently begun marketing the range of HP Scientific and Business
>calculators here to students and are getting a lot of interest here - particularly
>from engineering students in the 48 range.
>
>I'm not sure if it's an urban legend, but one student told me that NASA Shuttle
>astronauts were issued with HP 48GX's as backup computers if the Shuttles'
>primary and secondary computer systems malfunctions
>
>Does anybody know about this - I'd be sincerely gratetful for any information
>about this or other anecdotes about the amazing things HP 4x's are being
>used for.
I'm probably well qualified to discuss this, having worked as
as space vehicle avionics design engineer before coming to HP
and serving as the hardware design engineer for the HP48G/GX.
I have posted some articles which some found humorous, that
suggested HP calculators were the prime on board computers
for most NASA missions since the early sixties. The originals
were much too far off-base to be believed. But rumor mills
can make the oddest things believeable, I suppose.
I am aware of astronauts using their own HPs. I am also aware
of low budget research projects (called the Get-Away Special Program)
using the HP48 or other small, simple machines to control
experiments. See NASA's web site for details on Get-Away
Specials, if the topic is of interest.
The rules and laws related to qualification of flight hardware
are very stringent. I know, from experience trying to get both
safety-critical and non-critical flight hardware approved for
various missions. I cannot imagine that any HP calculator would
be approved for any official role in shuttle navigation or control.
They are nowhere near S-Level Qualification standards.
I am sorry to report that, so far as I know, you have indeed heard
some good old urban legends.
Dave.
------
I don't speak for HP when I post here.
PS: The shuttle, as I recall the details, has five on-board
computers. Each is a different design, running different code,
to make the same calculations. This is the level of redundancy
required on manned flights. The computer situation was discussed
in fairly deep detail back in the early 80's. I remember that an
attempted launch was scrubbed because of a synchoonization
problem with the computers. Since they were out of synch, the fifth
computer (which monitors the other four, as I recall) reported
errors and the countdown was automatically halted. DA.