Can a memory upgrade slow down a 48g?
Michael J. Schülke
I'm somewhat new to HP calculators, so please bear with me...
I recently acquired an HP 48g, which one of the previous owners had
upgraded to 128K RAM. The upgrade was done internally, so I have no idea
of the details.
I don't have another 48g to compare, but the calculator seems to be a
bit slow, especially outside the main screen / stack display. Browsing
the equation library is a pain, building up the "set time and date"
screen takes several seconds, and there's a sluggish feel to every pop-
up menu I encounter.
Is that just the way it is with every 48g, or is there some way that a
(improperly done?) memory upgrade could have caused this slowness? If
so, how can I find the cause, and how can I fix it?
Regards,
Michael
Yann
http://hp.giesselink.com/emu48.htm
the HP48 emulator
to compare speeds.
There is a checkbox which allows to select "real speed".
If the emulator is much faster than your real 48G,
then it is a problem specific to this hardware part.
Regards
Yann
Sometimes, an over-sized (or improperly sized) return stack
can make any little action very slow.
Technically, this is because most actions require temporary memory,
and each temporary memory allocation require to move the return stack.
Simple solution :
press "ON+C" for a warm reset.
The return stack will get initialised.
Michael J. Schülke
> You may use Emu48
> There is a checkbox which allows to select "real speed".
>
> If the emulator is much faster than your real 48G,
> then it is a problem specific to this hardware part.
Thanks a lot. The emulator is slightly faster than the real calculator,
but I'd put that down to the difficulty of achieving "real speed"
precisely in an emulator running on a virtual Windows machine under Mac
OS X and Parallels.
So my 48G is alright, but that raises a different question:
I'm quite familiar with several Z80 and 6502-based computers from the
1980s, as well as (dare I say that here?) TI's Z80-based calculators. On
those platforms, outputting a text string on a bitmap screen is a
relatively fast, computationally inexpensive operation -- is's usually
possible to fill the entire screen with text in a fraction of a second.
What makes at least parts of the 48G's user interface -- the pop-up
menus, the TIME screen, the equation library -- so relatively slow?
Regards,
Michael
Eric Rechlin
> Is that just the way it is with every 48g, or is there some way that a
> (improperly done?) memory upgrade could have caused this slowness? If
> so, how can I find the cause, and how can I fix it?
Upgrading the memory does indeed make it slower. Now it's as slow as a
48GX.
If you compare a stock 48G and a 48GX side-by-side, the G will be faster.
This is because the Saturn can only address 512KB of memory. A 48G has
512KB of ROM and 32KB of RAM, so it only has to "swap" out 1/16 of the ROM
to address the RAM. However, the 48GX (and your 48G) has 128KB of RAM, so
it has to swap out 1/4 of the ROM, which slows things down.
The difference isn't huge, but the 48GX is definitely slower.
Both feel pretty slow. Maybe it was more acceptable 15 years ago, but now,
with computers so much faster, we are less forgiving.
The best choice is to find a third-party replacement for the components that
you find to be slow. Many things that are slow in the 48 have replacements
written by the user community that are more efficient and run much faster.
Installing SpeedUI might help with some of your concerns.
Regards,
Eric Rechlin
Olaf Kaluza
>I'm quite familiar with several Z80 and 6502-based computers from the
>1980s, as well as (dare I say that here?) TI's Z80-based
>calculators.
So learn about the Saturn now. :-D
http://www.hpmuseum.org/techcpu.htm
>What makes at least parts of the 48G's user interface -- the pop-up
>menus, the TIME screen, the equation library -- so relatively slow?
A 4Bit CPU with 56Bit reg and BCD math optimized for low power. I
remember I compared my old SX many years ago with a Sharp E500. The SX
was much slower when do stupid things like increment a variable, but
this changed completly when do some real math.
Olaf
Olaf Kaluza
>The best choice is to find a third-party replacement for the components that
>you find to be slow.
No. The best thing is to use an 48SX with overclock. With the same
clockspeed than a GX, it feels faster than a GX.
http://www.criseis.ruhr.de/hp48/hp48a.html
Sorry, it is German, but you can read the shematic. I use my 48SX now
for 16-17years with 4Mhz without any problem.
Olaf
Eric Rechlin
> No. The best thing is to use an 48SX with overclock. With the same
> clockspeed than a GX, it feels faster than a GX.
Well, actually the best thing is to use a 50g if the solution set includes
buying a new calculator, but I'm biased. :)
Regards,
Eric Rechlin
Michael J. Schülke
> A 4Bit CPU with 56Bit reg and BCD math optimized for low power. I
> remember I compared my old SX many years ago with a Sharp E500. The SX
> was much slower when do stupid things like increment a variable, but
> this changed completly when do some real math.
>
Olaf, your name seems familiar -- is it possible I remember you from
d.s.e or d.a.f.c, a few years back?
Regards,
Michael
Olaf Kaluza
>Olaf, your name seems familiar -- is it possible I remember you from
>d.s.e or d.a.f.c, a few years back?
I remember me from d.s.e today. :-)
Olaf
Michael J. Schülke
> I remember me from d.s.e today. :-)
>
paying me for work and my spare time suddenly vanished...
Regards,
Michael
John H Meyers
> What makes at least parts of the 48G's user interface -- the pop-up
> menus, the TIME screen, the equation library -- so relatively slow?
The slowest part is the "Input form" interface, not the screen writing of text.
If you want to see something really slow,
store a few hundred items in HOME (or in any directory),
then do right-shift MEMORY :)
In that case, it's largely the fault of the internal DOVARS function
(also used by the UserRPL VARS command),
which you can replace for your own use, although you can not,
unfortunately, replace what all other internal functions use:
Lightning-fast VARS command [for HP48[S/G] series]
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.hp48/msg/70c1b543572a0e59?dmode=source
Wasn't the 48S also only half the speed of the 48G? Ouch!
[r->] [OFF]
Michael J. Schülke
> Well, actually the best thing is to use a 50g if the solution set includes
> buying a new calculator, but I'm biased. :)
The trouble is, I don't /need/ a new calculator. In fact, I don't think
I've ever /needed/ anything beyond a four function calculator since I
started working.
/Want/, OTOH, ist fundamentally different from /need/...
[Nostalgic ramblings start here - stop reading now if you don't care for
that sort of thing...]
Some 15 years ago, I got onto the TI-train more or less by accident, or
rather, by price tag. 250 DM for a TI-85 was steep (for a high school
student in the early nineties), but still way more affordable than 400
DM (or whatever it was) for an HP. The TI has never given me any reason
to complain, and when it died in an accident, it was replaced by a TI-
86, the best calculator (IMO) TI has ever made.
However, at the back of my head, I've always wondered what the road not
taken would haven like, calculator-wise, so when I had the chance to get
my hands on a 48g for a very reasonable sum, how could I decline?
Regards,
Michael
Dave
> The TI has never given me any reason
> to complain, and when it died in an accident, it was replaced by a TI-
> 86, the best calculator (IMO) TI has ever made.
Agreed. If I'm going to use a TI, I'd much prefer that it be an 86.
> However, at the back of my head, I've always wondered what the road not
> taken would haven like, calculator-wise, so when I had the chance to get
> my hands on a 48g for a very reasonable sum, how could I decline?
While rather slow by current standards, I personally prefer the 48
line over the 49/50 machines, on account of vastly longer battery
life, a better keyboard, and much better usability design. The speed
difference is not so much of an issue, thanks to the great keyboard
buffer in the 48. I can type much faster than the Saturn can think,
but it never drops a keystroke. I can't say the same for my 50, with
doubled keystrokes, missed keystrokes, and the trig keys randomly
misfiring when I haven't touched them. Of all the units I've got (48SX/
G/GX, 49g, 50g), the 48SX is the one I keep on my desk.
Now, if you want to see SLOW, pick up a cheap 28C. ;)
-Dave Britten
Tom Lake
> Sorry, it is German, but you can read the shematic. I use my 48SX now
> for 16-17years with 4Mhz without any problem.
>
> Olaf
The last component listed there is the most important
I don't think we need any software to translate that! 8^)
Tom Lake
Yann
> the 48SX is the one I keep on my desk.
I concurr, the 48SX casing is way better than its competitors,
including its followers.
It is a real pleasure to still use it nearly 20 years later ...
> What makes at least parts of the 48G's user interface -- the pop-up
> menus, the TIME screen, the equation library -- so relatively slow?
Now regarding 48GX slowness : i agree that part of the problem comes
from the fancy window/popup UI system.
It can be a pain to look at the window/field/checkbox forming on the
screen.
So you may have 2 solutions :
1) The most sophisticated one : use SpeedUI, which greatly improves
48GX responsiveness.
However, it comes at a cost, in the form of a pretty large amount of
dedicated memory...
2) The cheap one : remove the window UI system, to get back to the
menu-driven interface of 48SX,
which is much lighter, and therefore much more responsive.
All it needs is a system flag change.
rs1n
I rarely ever use any of the graphical interfaces. On occasion, I have
used the Equation Library. The Equation Library is not only slow
because it uses a slow GUI, it may also be that its code lies in
covered ROM makes it even slower. As for SpeedUI, you don't need all
of it because most of the speedups are for the GUIs. I personally only
install CF.LIB and UI.LIB (which requires CF.LIB) for the improved
stack and faster editor. For everything else, just use the menu system
instead.
greenchile505
> 2) The cheap one : remove the window UI system, to get back to the
> menu-driven interface of 48sx,
> which is much lighter, and therefore much more responsive.
> All it needs is a system flag change.
Question:
I recently picked up a 48g. I would like to turn off the Choose Boxes
and turn on Soft Menu only. I know this is Flag -117 on the 50g, and
the 48sx has no Choose Boxes, but how do I switch to Soft Menus on the
48g?
By the way, if you want speed, buy a 50g. If you want to travel back
in time to 1996, hide your laptop and cell phone, turn off the TV, and
spend an hour or two programming your 48s[x] or 48g[x][+]. Good times.
Cheers.
Raymond Del Tondo
news:e3b476ae-56c2-4f22...@d5g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>
>Question:
>I recently picked up a 48g. I would like to turn off the Choose Boxes
>and turn on Soft Menu only. I know this is Flag -117 on the 50g, and
>the 48sx has no Choose Boxes, but how do I switch to Soft Menus on the
>48g?
>
rightshift+Key: Choose Boxes
leftshift+Key: Menus
where applicable.
HTH
Raymond
John H Meyers
> I recently picked up a 48g.
> I would like to turn off the Choose Boxes and turn on Soft Menu only.
> I know this is Flag -117 on the 50g [which does not exist in 48G].
> How do I switch to Soft Menus on the 48g?
There is nothing to switch.
All 48G menus can appear only as menus.
The green-labeled "app keys"
(1 thru 9, and top-row CHARS, MODES, MEMORY and STACK)
lead, however, to menus when left-shifted,
and to applications (forms) when right-shifted:
http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/pc/pictures/hp48g2.jpg
http://www.flaterco.com/xtide/x48_and_hptide.PNG
http://images.quebarato.com.br/photos/big/3/3/C3E33_1.jpg
You might find it valuable to download the original
"HP 48G Series User's Guide"
http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=3937
http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/docs/misc/hp48gug.zip
(Complete copy of the eighth edition of the 48G series instruction manual,
scanned and indexed by Eric Rechlin, with the permission of HP tech support)
> If you want to travel back in time to 1996,
> hide your laptop and cell phone, turn off the TV...
What are all those?
[r->] [OFF]
greenchile505
> All 48G menus can appear only as menus.
> The green-labeled "app keys"
> (1 thru 9, and top-row CHARS, MODES, MEMORY and STACK)
> lead, however, to menus when left-shifted,
> and to applications (forms) when right-shifted:
> You might find it valuable to download the original
> "HP 48G Series User's Guide"http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=3937http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/docs/misc/hp48gug.zip
> (Complete copy of the eighth edition of the 48G series instruction manual,
> scanned and indexed by Eric Rechlin, with the permission of HP tech support)
Thank you John and Raymond. I spent too much time reading and
searching about FLAGS and missed that in the manual. And thanks to
Eric for indexing the user's guide. Much better than the non-indexed
version I had.
Cheers.
Chris
>
> I rarely ever use any of the graphical interfaces. On occasion, I have
> used the Equation Library. The Equation Library is not only slow
> because it uses a slow GUI, it may also be that its code lies in
> covered ROM makes it even slower. As for SpeedUI, you don't need all
> of it because most of the speedups are for the GUIs. I personally only
> stack and faster editor. For everything else, just use the menu system
> instead.
If I install CF.LIB and UI.LIB but then switch back to the four level
stack is data entry improved?
Raymond Del Tondo
news:63ca8c38-d536-4e20...@s15g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
> On 29 Oct, 19:32, rs1n <> wrote:
>>
>> [..]
>> I personally only install CF.LIB and UI.LIB (which requiresCF.LIB)
>> for the improved stack and faster editor.
>> For everything else, just use the menu system instead.
>
> If I install CF.LIB and UI.LIB but then switch back to the four level
> stack is data entry improved?
>
The super fast editor is an integral part of the SpeedUI stack interface.
A later version may include stack display font size switching.
But if you also install UF.LIB , you'll have access to the SpeedUI
CMD catalog, the SpeedUI setup input form,
and the SpeedUI EDIT menu, which includes,
amongst other things, the clipboard functionality,
which also works outside of the SpeedUI stack environment.