HP calc. Customer Service
JB
to thank the people that responded. I have just one more question. I
noticed a posting on this site where someone wanted to know if his
calculator came from a bad batch based on his serial number. Bad
batch? That sounds a bit scary as I have never heard of a bad batch
with my two TI calc's. So I guess the question is if I buy a 50g and
say a keyboard problem developes, what telephone number would I call at
HP for calculator customer service. TI has the toll free number
1-800-TI-CARES to resolve any calculator issues so I assume that HP has
a similiar number but I may be wrong. Again, I want to thank the kind
people that replied to my previous posting. Thank you. - JB
TW
> with my two TI calc's.
Some here would argue that ALL batches of 49G+ calcualtors were bad.
Reality is that the earliest 49G+ calcualtors had terrible keyboards.
Quality kept getting better, but in the end there was a lot of
confusion about which calculators had imporved keyboards and which
didn't.
The 50G has a great keyboard and I don't think I've heard anyone
complaining about them. Ok, there are still people whining about not
having a large ENTER key, "it isn't like the 41", etc.
Nothing to worry about the 50G keyboard.
TW
JB
If you buy an HP 50g and it's got a problem
then
you go to hp.com
then
click on support and trouble shooting
then
select hand held devices
then
select HP graphing calculators
then
you will be on the page that is titled HP Graphing Calculators where
you are prompted to select your calculator from a list of calculator
models but you notice that the HP 50g is not on the list!!!
I have found from personal experience that I can't count on HP to ship
quality products or provide accessible customer service, so it worries
me greatly when I can't find a phone number for hp50g problems. I
think I'll pass on buying a 50g and wait for the TI-inspire due out
after the first of the year and see what it provides.
Jean-Yves Avenard
> you will be on the page that is titled HP Graphing Calculators where
> you are prompted to select your calculator from a list of calculator
> models but you notice that the HP 50g is not on the list!!!
I wouldn't put too much emphasis for what appears on a web site when the
calculator hasn't been out for a month yet
> think I'll pass on buying a 50g and wait for the TI-inspire due out
> after the first of the year and see what it provides.
From the various web site I gather it won't be available outside of a
few european countries
JY
Michael Kuyumcu
I have already worked with prototypes of the N'spire. The battery life
time was about 3 to 4 hours when the calculator was running, rebooting
took about a full minute to load a custom-written OS for the calc. The
CAS was still very buggy (we found 5 serious problems within 15
minutes), while the dynamic graphics package is already working
smoothly though not elegantly. There is an extensive test review on
this N'spire prototype available at
http://www.noemanetz.de/folgeseiten/artikel/CIMS-SH_Fortbildung.html
but it's in German only.
The N'spire, according to a TI representative I met in person was
supposed to be out by August, but it's not. The latest new publishing
date is planned as "September", but my colleagues and I doubt that. TI
allegedly wants to change the batteries to lithium cells, which should
take a bit of readjustment. And you just can't trust the CAS at the
moment. One minute, it solves a system of linear equations with 2
unknowns, and the other moment it wouldn't. One minute, you can grab a
parabola and change it dynamically with the "mouse pointer" (there is
no mouse), the other it refuses to work. The solution of the TI
representative to this problem was spectactular: remove all 4 batteries
from the device, put them into another one, power that one up, and
suddenly it worked...
Regards,
Michael Kuyumcu
JB
>From what I gather from various web sites, the Ti-inspire is due out in
the spring in the US, and I have a voyage 200 that I use all the time
and my 200 has never had any any hardware or software problems. It's
just that I like to have the latest gadets. So I thought I might by a
50g, but to be honest I've had faulty products from HP before and then
sat on hold for literally hours trying to get some customer service, so
I am very skeptical that everything is fine now with HP and with the
50g. I guess I'll just wait a while and see what happens. Sometimes
it takes a while for problems to show up in a new product and if
problems do show up in the 50g, I'm skeptical that HP would do anything
to remedy the bad stuff they already shipped. I mean just consider
how many calc's they must have shipped with with poor keyboards. I do
see some enthusiasm on this site for the 50g though but I think it
quite likely that most of those messages are coming from Hp marketing
personel? Thanks for the question. I guess I got to long winded in
answering it. - JB
JB
and Hp. Ti fixes product problems BEFORE they release the product.
laurent.jo...@free.fr
Dynatech (www.dynatech.com) remove all information about TI Nspire
today. They don't know when it will be released.
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
X
> and my 200 has never had any any hardware or software problems.
It has bugs and the keyboard of the TI's has never been quite right
mushy...at least my TI-89 HW1 was...
John H Meyers
> I have never heard of a bad batch with my two TI calc's.
It wasn't an isolated "bad batch" -- it was a completely bad physical
keyboard design, which then was revised for all succeeding production
(and then a third version, which finally produced faultless keyboards
for the 49G+ and continues for all 50G).
Even early, faulty keyboard "bounce" was largely compensated for
by ROM adjustments, although "keys breaking off" was not :)
TI, of course, has never had poor physical production
(dirt-collecting screens, "mushy" keys...)
> what telephone number would I call at HP
> for calculator customer service. TI has the toll free number
> 1-800-TI-CARES to resolve any calculator issues so I assume
> that HP has a similiar number but I may be wrong.
Why, you seem to be right!
In the back of my 49G+ User's Manual are service phone numbers
for every country, USA/Canada sharing 800-HP-INVENT
(which answered immediately when I just called).
This seems to bring up an old question:
Which is worth more -- a pound of invention or a pound of care?
I get "Error: Inconsistent Units"
[r->] [OFF]
johnhre...@yahoo.com
JB wrote:
> how many calc's they must have shipped with with poor keyboards. I do
> see some enthusiasm on this site for the 50g though but I think it
> quite likely that most of those messages are coming from Hp marketing
> personel? Thanks for the question. I guess I got to long winded in
> answering it. - JB
Uh... yeah. We're all employees of HP Marketing just here to talk up
the new product with the 100 or so people that haunt this newsgroup.
Actually I'm fairly new here. Usually you will find me prowling around
comp.os.vms. I just found this group when I was hunting for a
replacement for my HP12c that I'd been using since 1984. The darn
thing just went nuts and I'd get random numbers and results when
pressing the keypad. I hope that doesn't start a rumor about faulty
HP12c keypads in the 1984 product! I don't really need anything as
high powered as the HP50g but I had been hankering for a scientific
calculator for a while and my 19c's ni-cd batteries are just not up to
snuff anymore.
I also have to confess that as of today (28-Aug-2006) I AM an HP
employee, though not with marketing and I have nothing to do with the
calculators. I am part of a group providing Oracle DBA services to a
large mid-western USA manufacturer.
Look around and read some more of the posts and try not to be so jaded
in life. It'll probably make things more enjoyable.
John H. Reinhardt
John H Meyers
> To reply to Michael Kuyumcu: I guess that is the difference between Ti
> and Hp. Ti fixes product problems BEFORE they release the product.
That is a nicer way of saying that at present,
they have a product too undeveloped to be released at all,
with major problems immediately apparent,
rather than emerging only over a longer time in the field.
Globalization has helped to create situations
where no one party can guarantee the entire end-to-end process
as well as when everything was done under a single roof,
within a single corporate culture, and even under
a single founder's watchful guidance on every product,
as once it was at HP.
[r->] [OFF]
John H Meyers
> I don't really need anything as high powered as the HP50g
> but I had been hankering for a scientific calculator for a while
> and my 19c's ni-cd batteries are just not up to snuff anymore.
I've never seen its battery pack, but in every other pack I've seen,
the cells can be replaced (nowadays with NiMH).
How's the printer doing?
Maybe HP could copy those "eveready bunny" ads, e.g.
"my HP calculators just keep going, and going, and going..."
(and will probably outlive me, if I don't sell them off :)
Thanks for your fresh viewpoint.
[r->] [OFF]
Jean-Yves Avenard
> Hi Jean-Yves,
>
> I have already worked with prototypes of the N'spire. The battery life
> time was about 3 to 4 hours when the calculator was running, rebooting
> took about a full minute to load a custom-written OS for the calc. The
> CAS was still very buggy (we found 5 serious problems within 15
> minutes), while the dynamic graphics package is already working
> smoothly though not elegantly. There is an extensive test review on
> this N'spire prototype available at
and you weren't under a NDA when you reviewed prototypes ? would be
extremely unusual.
In which case whatever you posted here is in breach of such agreement.
Jean-Yves
Gene
Jean-Yves Avenard wrote:
> and you weren't under a NDA when you reviewed prototypes ? would be
> extremely unusual.
> In which case whatever you posted here is in breach of such agreement.
>
> Jean-Yves
Gene: Strangely, some here on the group don't seem to think such things
matter. Of course, I sincerely hope such individuals aren't brought
into any future NDAs with HP, since they would feel no compunction
about keeping their side of the agreement.
JYA, will be good to meet you at HHC2006!
Jean-Yves Avenard
> Gene: Strangely, some here on the group don't seem to think such things
> matter. Of course, I sincerely hope such individuals aren't brought
I was dead against reporting people who people thought they broke an NDA
when:
1-There was no suggestion a NDA was in place
2-The guy was actually doing a favour to the community by posting photos
It's entirely different to thinking NDA do not matter. If I have signed
such document, I will respect all terms of it
Jean-Yves
johnhre...@yahoo.com
The calculator has a built in charger and I think something has gone
wrong with it because the last two battery packs I bought (from HP at
about $30 each in the mid 1980's) died very quickly. At least they
failed to hold a charge. It's been a long time since I've looked into
the problem, perhaps for old time's sake I should just to see.
The last time I used the printer it worked fine, however I ran out of
the thermal paper for it and at the time it wasn't financially prudent
to hunt up any more. Again, perhaps I should look around and see
what's available. I could probably get some sort of thermal paper and
cut it into strips that would fit.
I remember when the 41c came out, I dearly wanted one but couldn't
justify the upgrade from the 19c while I was in school, then later my
career choice (computer sys admin) didn't really justify it either and
I drifted out of touch of th HP calculator world (except for my ex's
12c left over from her MBA days). But I digress...
John H. Reinhardt
Chris Smith
> I do see some enthusiasm on this site for the 50g though but I think it
> quite likely that most of those messages are coming from Hp marketing
> personel?
Uh, right. And world governments are hiding evidence of UFOs, right?
On an unrelated note, it's amazing how many secret plots there were to
assassinate JFK.
Skepticism about product quality is one thing. Paranoia is another. Be
careful to stay on the right side of that line.
(Incidentally, I have a 50G and it works fine. Then again, I never had
any problems with the 49G+ either. I am convinced it's a matter of
level of expectations and usage patterns. I doubt if someone who hasn't
used a 41 of a 48 would notice anything to complain about. If I
complained about something regarding my early 49G+ calculator, it would
be the inexplicable lack of will of the calculator to automatically
restore previous options after doing some calculation in approximate
mode or complex mode.)
--
Chris Smith
John H Meyers
> and you weren't under a NDA when you reviewed prototypes ?
> would be extremely unusual.
> In which case whatever you posted here is in breach of such agreement.
So would be the web page, but it may not be at all;
see "Teacher devices" in this mediocre translation into English:
Or for French output ("Appareils d'enseignant"):
But don't wait for an answer from the accused
(after all, Inspector Javert never bothered :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Misérables
[r->] [OFF]
John H Meyers
for HP (800-HP-INVENT) vs. TI (800-TI-CARES)
should actually be:
"An ounce of invention is worth a pound of care"
[r->] [OFF]
Gene
Jean-Yves Avenard wrote:
> It's entirely different to thinking NDA do not matter. If I have signed
> such document, I will respect all terms of it
>
> Jean-Yves
Gene: My fault. I'm referring to an email from a regular participant on
this group that went to my gmail account. The email made it quite clear
that NDAs meant nothing to this person.
And, for the record, I do not and did not report any NDA "breakers". I
do speak out when it appears someone is leaking things in advance,
things that ought to be under an NDA, since that can make it much less
likely for trust to be displayed by HP in the future.
Michael Kuyumcu
if I had agreed to such an NDA (which, I suppose, stands for
Non-Disclosure Agreement), I would be aware of it. I use my
consciousness on a regular basis and know quite well whether or not I
commit a breach of anything legal.
The situation is the following: TI has made a deal with the Ministry of
Education in one of the German Länder, namely Schleswig-Holstein, to
provide 120 free units of the N'spire to every school elected to
participate in a special CAS-based math education project. I am a
teacher at one of these schools, and all participating teachers in the
Land of Schleswig-Holstein were invited to get to know prototypes of
the TI technology, while another group learned about the Casio
Classpad, and a third group dealt with the MuPad software of the
Sciface company. As TI had not been able to fully develop their N'spire
technology to that presentation date, but still wanted to give a first
impression of their products, a presentation with 30 calculator
prototypes and alpha state PC software was given. And no-one had to
sign any agreement as to not to divulge anything they experienced or
discovered with these devices. In fact, no teacher would have signed
such a ridiculuous gag agreement.
Strangely, HP does not seem interested in aquainting new generations of
students with their - conceptually superior - calculators. As TI,
Casio, and Sciface give the schools these 120 free units, in return,
the schools bind themselves to equip the following three years of
students with the same devices - at the school's cost! So these
companies gain a first firm standing in the schools, every student will
know their products, and will probably continue to buy and use them
also when school is over and they attend university. Why change a
complex technology you have just gotten used to? So I think HP Germany
has given away a tremendous opportunity here.
Accidentally, what I wrote about the TI deadlines turned out wrong just
today. We teachers have all received "pre-production" N'spires (with
usual batteries), and many of the formerly observed problems seem to
have been already fixed, especially concerning the dynamic graphics
application. From my point of view, now TI clearly has the better
product than HP, which is not surprising because the technology of the
49G+/50g has come of age by now. The HP features a great and comparably
fast processor, the ARM, but has not yet taken any serious steps
towards a native programming development suite for that processor,
which, to my mind, is treating the customers in a rather patronizing
way. I know of Cyrilles latest post to the hpgcc group about ARMCODE
object embedment into the ROM - but she calls this step unofficial. HP
simply and regrettably hasn't had the courage to invest sufficient
funds into the tailoring of the OS for the ARM, and I think will now
pay for that decision with either a) having to lag begind TI for quite
a while or b) resort to satisfy nostalgic-minded customers and HP
affectionados who use their calculator more as a toy than than as a
real-world necessity.
Of course, the "pre-production" N'spires we received today have come
without any NDA. In fact, they have come without any written document,
there is not even a user's manual. What what the heck, experimenting
with new calculators and software is something I love! And I will
continue to publish test results, and be it only to provide some sort
of qualified user feedback for TI so that they can further improve
their latest calculator flagship. I think the N'spire will provide
quite a boost for motivation and math learning for students and teacher
alike with problems approaching real-life complexity in the classroom
and I am looking forward to this. Frankly, I would have preferred to
work with HP calcs, but they don't match up anymore (and thinking they
were leading once makes me somewhat sad). They more and more rapidly
become outdated.
Regards,
Michael Kuyumcu
Yao Konan
As you have the opportunity to work with prototype could you do a
review of these prototypes or agree to answer some questions regarding
them ?
Thanks.
Michael Kuyumcu
thanks for your interest in the Nspire.
I have not written any tests yet (it's very new), and if/when I should
do so, it probably will be in German. I don't know whether or not I
will publish that review online or only mail it to TI. Maybe I will
publish a web URL on the HP group although it feels strange to annouce
something about a competitor's product on the HP list.
So there are a lot of maybe's here, and I don't know if I will find the
time soon. As a teacher, there are many other things on my mind. I am
sure you will understand.
Regards,
Michael Kuyumcu
Steen Schmidt
> [...] I know of Cyrilles latest post to the hpgcc
> group about ARMCODE object embedment into the ROM - but she calls
> this step unofficial.[...]
"She"? Ouch, Cyrille, stop shaving ;-)
Cheers,
Steen
Yao Konan
In fact i would just want to know 2 or 3 things if you have had the
time to slighty explore the tool:
* Does it have 3D plotting at all ?
* Does it look notably faster than the TI89 Titanium ?
* Is it programmable at all ?
Thanks in advance.
Michael Kuyumcu a écrit :
Michael Kuyumcu
In earnest: sorry, that was a typo.
Michael Kuyumcu
John C
The Voyage 200 was not a new product by any stretch. It is essentially a
TI94+ in a new case. All of the bugs and problems that TI had with the 94
and 94+ (and there were many) were worked out before the Voyage 200 came
out. The 49g+ was new in several senses including the processor and the
first effort with a partnering manufacturer.
I'm not excusing the problems that HP has had with the 49g+ nor am I running
down TI. I own a 94+ which I like very much; although, I do like my HP49g+ a
great deal more. My 49g+ is a very, very early serial number and I have had
none of the problems that have been described by so many. Just luck I guess,
or perhaps it's just the difference in the way that people use things.
In any event, every company has had problems; some of them major. In my
view, HP has corrected whatever problems the 49g+ may have had fairly
quickly given the limited resources that they seem to have available.
John
[SNIP]
Jean-Yves Avenard
> Hi Jean-Yves,
>
> Non-Disclosure Agreement), I would be aware of it. I use my
> consciousness on a regular basis and know quite well whether or not I
> commit a breach of anything legal.
Hi Michael.
Thank you for your post.
It looks like TI made the best use of the waiting time and created a
learning device similar to what Xpander should have been.
Is the calculator using a touch screen or like what it appears on photo
just a little joystick? if yes, how does it work? do you like it?
Does it have a spreadsheet? how does it work?
Too bad HP was left behind technologically. I agree with your earlier
comments.
Jean-Yves
Jean-Yves Avenard
Whao, I didn't know TI had such machine...
Or you meant TI92 ?
John C wrote:
> JB:
>
> The Voyage 200 was not a new product by any stretch. It is essentially a
> TI94+ in a new case. All of the bugs and problems that TI had with the 94
JY
Michael
Cheers Mick
Michael Kuyumcu
no touch sreen, just a small circular plastic pad which is sensitive to
finger presses and with which you can push the pointer arrow on the
screen into any direction (diagonally works, too). There are additional
arrow keys which basically do the same thing but much more slowly
(pixel-wise). The pointer speed is ok now, but will be too slow when I
have gotten used to it, I think. There is no way to change the speed,
although there are a couple of other general "system settings". The
device is completely menu-driven, just like any ordinary PC, you can
have any number of documents open at one time, among them a
spreadsheet, which is much like Excel. It features local and global
cell references, and the whole apparatus for symbolic math (the CAS
core) can be used in any cell. There is an automated sequence generator
for the spreadsheet, too, which is nice when doing pseudo-random test
series. The basic principle is that you have a "problem" (that's how TI
calls the Nspire documents, I hope the docs won't cause any) to which
you can assign up to four different applications (CAS, graphics,
spreadsheet, and notes). Changes in variables, definitions and so forth
in any of the environments immediately and dynamically affect all
assigned applications.
In fact, I like the device a lot so far. It features a big clear
screen, which is just a tad too dark for me and could have been coated
in a way to better prevent light reflections. It seems to be
programmable (there are flow control constructs, Goto Label command,
and the like). I just have not written any program yet, and don't know
how to (where to write it and how to run it and so on), since there is
no written documentation with the calculator, and the last TI I have
programmed was the TI 66. In fact, I learned programming on that
calc... nostalgia... Can anyone point me to programming ressources for
the Voyage or the TI-92? Maybe the systems will turn out to be similar.
I have not noted any options for assembler programming (which is one of
my favorite pastimes).
I have found numerous graphics plotting capabilities, but none dealing
with 3D so far. But then, I had the Nspire running for only 30 minutes
roughly yet.
Regards,
Michael Kuyumcu
Michael Kuyumcu
of hers as to her whereabouts...
Regards,
Michael Kuyumcu
John H Meyers schrieb:
Yao Konan
It is surprising that 3D plotting is not easily availlable as it is one
of my favorite feature of those advanced calc and in fact one of the
main marketing argument for the TI92 when it was introduced in 1995.
For programming of the Tool assuming that it has a similar user
language to the TI92,you can find some help from the TI89TI/Voyage 200
guidebook availlable from the TI site here:
http://education.ti.com/educationportal/appsdelivery/download/download_eula.jsp?cid=us&displayMode=G&applicationid=6128&contentpaneid=17
Eventually i could give you additionnal help if needed as i happen to
be quite strong with TI92 Basic.
I think that you could write programs with the Note editor then
tokenize and save them from the calculator screen.
For exemple the famous Hello world:
Define hello()=Prgm:
Text "Hello Wolrd":EndPrgm
Execute from the calculator apps,this should create the program which
when called as
hello() should show a window with the message.
Michael Kuyumcu a écrit :
Michael Kuyumcu
with TI Basic. I might get back to you on that... :)
Regards,
Michael Kuyumcu
Yao Konan schrieb:
JB
education oriented that it will be considered by most people to be a
speciality item for the education market only, or is it clearly the
next generation TI top of the line calculator which will replace TI's
89 and voyage 200 series? I know you are busy, but I have been
curious about this for quite some time, and would greatly appreciate
knowing your opinion on this question. Thanks, JB
John C
Thanks for the note
John
"Jean-Yves Avenard" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:4lk3dkF...@individual.net...
Michael Kuyumcu
I have never used the TI 89 and Voyage series seriously. Up until
recently, when I got the 49g+, my veteran TI 66 and Mathematica
(university) had been quite sufficient. From the capacity of the Nspire
(over 32 MB of RAM, of which more than 24 MB are freely availabe to the
user), I would say it's the next step of TI. But it is clearly geared
toward the education market, while definitely not exclusively so. I
can't detect any expansion slots which I know from the SD card slot of
the HP (which is an advantage). I don't think most people would
consider it for the ed market only.
Regards,
Michael Kuyumcu
Michael Kuyumcu
I have tried writing the Hello World program in Notes. I can save the
file, but there is no way to tokenize it, it seems (at least no menu
entry offers to do just that). Then I have used the Define command in
the CAS. For instance, you can write there:
Define g(x)=x*x Done
and when you write g(2), the calc answers with 4.
When I Defined the Hello World program with
Define hello()=Prgm:text "Hello World":EndPrgm,
the calculator did not answer with "Done", as above, but with
"endprgm". It seems that either it has recognized a special construct
(prgm...endprgm) or it has just repeated the last colon-separated part
of the definition. Anyhow, when I now write hello(), it replies with
"text·"Hello World". So my guess is the software has recognized the
Prgm...EndPrgm construct, but sees no way to really execute it. By the
way, all keyword letters are de-capitalized after entry.
What do you think? How could I possibly *call*/execute that defined
function?
Regards,
Michael Kuyumcu
Yao Konan schrieb:
Michael Kuyumcu
a word on the question of speed you asked:
for a "factor(2^67-1)", the nspire needs 4 seconds.
Regards,
Michael Kuyumcu
Yao Konan schrieb:
Michael Kuyumcu
on the programmability: it seems that you can use the provided
programming constructs in *functions only*. The catalog lists no TEXT
command, no DISP, and if you want information on the programming
constructs, you get the comment "Command for use in functions".
The programming constructs offered are:
Func...EndFunc
Local
If
If...Then...Endif
If...Then...Else...Endif
Elseif...Then
For...EndFor
While...EndWhile
Loop...EndLoop
Exit
Cycle
Return
GoTo Lbl
Insert New Line
Insert Comment (a small c within a circle)
Could you combine two or three of these commands for a test function
for me, please? So we know whether the programming functionality
actually works. Thanks!
Yao Konan
Let's try the iterative fibonnacci number computation:
Define Fib(n)=Func:
Local i,k1,k2,r
if n<1:return "Unknown value":0->k1:1->k2:
For i,1,n:k2->r:k1+k2->k2:r->k1:EndFor:Return k2:EndFor:
EndFunc
Michael Kuyumcu a écrit :
Yao Konan
I thought that the TI-NSpire had 16 MB of RAM and 20 MB of Flash ROM
availlabe for the user ?
Michael Kuyumcu a écrit :
Yao Konan
It seems that the Nspire accepts only functions and no programs in the
TI92 sense.
This is very annoying as functions as somehow limited compared to
programs.
On the TI92 series functions can not modify or create global variables.
They can't also use Dialog boxes or change System Settings or use
Command for things such as plotting,etc....
Moreover it seems that the TI-Nspire is case un sensitive like the
TI92.
Is there a limit to 8 characters for the variables names ?
Is it possible to create folders within a problem ?
Is there a tree directory structure for documents ?
I fear that there is no way to execute the program i gave.
The fact that it returns endprgm,means that it doesn't recognize the
structure otherwise it would returns Done and hello() would open a
Dialog Box.
Michael Kuyumcu a écrit :
Yao Konan
version:
Define Fib(n)=Func:
Local i,k1,k2,r
if n<1:
return "Unknown value":
0->k1:1->k2:
For i,1,n:
k2->r:
k1+k2->k2:r->k1:
EndFor:
Return k2:
EndFunc
Michael Kuyumcu a écrit :
> Hi,
Michael Kuyumcu
I am very grateful to your effort and help! It works! The code, as you
gave, without any alterations, produces the fibonacci numbers! Now I
think you can claim to have been one of the first non-tester people who
ever programmed the TI-nspire! :-)
Kind regards,
Michael Kuyumcu
one block. The system software takes up about 8 or so MB, and the rest
is free for you, the user. At least the system info does not
differentiate any ram or rom areas visibly.
Interesting: fib(10000) produces an overflow, even in Exact mode, while
the CAS seems to be capable of handling multiple-precision numbers
otherwise with no problems.fib(1000) works, and does so within 2
seconds.
Regards,
Michael Kuyumcu
Yao Konan schrieb:
Michael Kuyumcu
mean, now that we know that programming constructs work in functions,
maybe you could come up with 4 or 5 lines of test codes for 3D
plotting? Of course, I don't know whether that kind of programming
would be so easy, but if it is, maybe you would like to try it?
Anyway, thanks for considering it!
Regards,
Michael Kuyumcu
Yao Konan schrieb:
> Thanks for the information.
Michael Kuyumcu
Anyhow, it may be that I am still missing something basic (while
different from the 92 or Voyage) when trying to write a real program.
Still, the on-calc reference lists only functions, not a single command
like PLOT or anything the like.
I just gave the geometry section another look. It seems I can define
only functions with one independent variable, not two. I saw an example
in the pdf handbook you referenced but I can't reproduce it on the
nspire. So maybe it really is bound to 2D? Hard to imagine...
Your questions:
There is no 8-character limit on variables name. The CAS recognizes and
distinguishes between, for instance, the variables ABCDEFGHIJKLMN and
ABCDEFGHIJKLN.
A problem is not a folder or special structure. It is a plain .tns
document. You can arrange any documents in any folders. You can save
and save as... documents. BUT: it seems that only the root level of the
directory structure can hold folders. When you save as... a document,
you are asked into which folder you want to save the document. At that
moment, there is no way to see inside that folder. You can only
highlight its name, provide a name for the document, and save it into
the selected folder.
There is a file browser, though, with which you can create folders
(only on root level, it seems), view the contents of folders, move
files from one folder into another, delete files, erase folders
(including their contents!), cut/copy/paste files and folders (folders
only on the root level). It is a mono-level tree structure, I'd rather
call it a bush structure.
Regards,
Michael Kuyumcu
Yao Konan
Is there a some kind of settings screen ?
Michael Kuyumcu a écrit :
> Is there a quick way to test 3D functions plotting capabilities. I
Yao Konan
There is some others code that you can try such as this one:
Define keynum()=Func:
Local key:
0->key:
While key=0:
getkey()->key:
EndWhile:
return key:
EndFunc
This function enables to get the code of a key.
Btw do you know if the TI-NSpire support variables of more than 8
characters and folder within Problems ?
Yao Konan
NSpire behaves like the TI92:
setmode("Graph","3D"):Graph (x^3*y-y^3*x)/390
Michael Kuyumcu a écrit :
Yao Konan
> characters and folder within Problems ?
Oups sorry,you have already answered in a previous post.
Yao Konan
> one block. The system software takes up about 8 or so MB, and the rest
> is free for you, the user. At least the system info does not
> differentiate any ram or rom areas visibly.
Well,i think that those 32 MB are Flash ROM as the TI site claims that
the TI-NSpire has close to 20 MB of storage memory thus Flash ROM.
The TI site also claims 16 MB of computing memory so iassume that this
memory is not SRAM and can't be used to store datas.
> Interesting: fib(10000) produces an overflow, even in Exact mode, while
> the CAS seems to be capable of handling multiple-precision numbers
> otherwise with no problems.fib(1000) works, and does so within 2
> seconds.
Surprising.
That would mean that the TI-NSpire is more than 10 times faster than my
TI92+ on this problem.This is simply incredible !
To have a better idea of the relative speed of this tool could you
clock this operation which takes almost 4 min on a TI92+ ?
approx(randmat(20,20)^-1)
It doesn't really suprise me that fib(10000) returns an overflow.
> Regards,
> Michael Kuyumcu
>
>
>
Yao Konan
> one block. The system software takes up about 8 or so MB, and the rest
> is free for you, the user. At least the system info does not
> differentiate any ram or rom areas visibly.
Well,i think that those 32 MB are Flash ROM as the TI site claims that
the TI-NSpire has close to 20 MB of storage memory thus Flash ROM.
The TI site also claims 16 MB of computing memory so iassume that this
memory is not SRAM and can't be used to store datas.
> Interesting: fib(10000) produces an overflow, even in Exact mode, while
> the CAS seems to be capable of handling multiple-precision numbers
> otherwise with no problems.fib(1000) works, and does so within 2
> seconds.
Surprising.
John H Meyers
I don't know exactly what these words mean in TI land,
but using my own definitions, in "Algebraic" mode,
the HP49/50 series seems to have made *everything*
a "function," transparently to the user, by:
o Hiding the original stack during evaluation.
o Supplying just the explicit arguments to the "function"
o Returning exactly one result in every case
(NOVAL replacing "no result" and a list
replacing multiple individual results)
How clever of those HP people!
[r->] [OFF]
Michael Kuyumcu
all the usual 2D stuff.
Thanks for thinking about this.
Michael Kuyumcu
Michael Kuyumcu
Yao Konan schrieb:
> > The on-calc system info says otherwise: it treats the whole memory as
Yao Konan
It is seriously begin to worry me.
I hope that the rumoured additions of Derive features to the TI-NSpire
is true.
Anyway,thanks.
Michael Kuyumcu a écrit :
Yao Konan
It is seriously begin to worry me.
I hope that the rumoured additions of Derive features to the TI-NSpire
is true.
Anyway,thanks.
Michael Kuyumcu a écrit :
> No 3D mode, no settings screen for this. Only rectangular, polar, and
Yao Konan
If the TI-Nspire is as relativelly as fast for all operations than it
is definitvelly a quantum leap from the TI89Ti/Voyage 200 in term of
performances.
It is too bad it doesn't have 3D plotting because with such a speed and
the grayscale levels high resolution screen,real time 3D rotation of
surfaces would be wonderful.
Btw have you down some speed tests on your own ?
Michael Kuyumcu a écrit :
> That's 15 seconds
Jean-Yves Avenard
>> That would mean that the TI-NSpire is more than 10 times faster than my
>> TI92+ on this problem.This is simply incredible !
you're comparing a 16 bits processor running at 12Mhz vs a 32bits RISC
processor running at over 100Mhz ...
It will likely be more than 10 times faster...
JY
Yao Konan
According to the education.ti site the NSpire CPU has over 6 times the
speed of the TI89TI CPU,so i would say that it should run at 75 Mhz
like the HP50G CPU and close to the ClassPad CPU.
Anyway,i think that it is incredible because the NSpire certainly uses
the same algorithms as the TI68k and BCD,yet it seems from 16 to almost
20 times faster than my TI92+ for BCD floating operations.
So this means that TI has done quite a good job on the TI-Nspire
software.
Jean-Yves Avenard a écrit :
JB
HI Yao Konan, Now that you have had a peek at the tinspire, aside from
the disturbing lack of 3d plotting, how do you rate it? I'd rather
have the 3-d capability and more math capability such as Laplace
transforms than the extra speed. Of course having it all would be even
better. - JB
TW
> the disturbing lack of 3d plotting, how do you rate it?
I think he is just commenting on what Michael was reporting.
TW
Michael Kuyumcu
+ it is really quite fast for a pocket calculator. You can move around
complete coordinate systems with plotted function graphs almost
instantaneously. And I remember another topic on this list ("my HP
won't factor 2^67-1", while the TI need only 4 seconds)
+ the screen makes a nice impression (large, clear, fine)
- programming abilities are "pre-optimal" (to put it nicely):
no assembler programming
no *programs*, only functions. While this appears desirable to many
purists, it is not at all to me. I think that disabling programs, for
no obvious reasons, is treating the users in a patronizing way.
- graphics options missing:
no 3D plotting. And this, for me, is a serious thing. I am supposed
to teach analytic geometry using the nspire. Thus I would need 3D
coordinate systems, lines, planes, spheres and so on and a way to make
them intersect etc. In this state, with only 2D graphics, it's
half-useless for this curriculum topic. If I were to use this device
for analytic geometry, I would have to program functions myself that
display 3D objects. I'd have to program a basic 3D engine. I am afraid
that I simply don't have the time for that.
+ sufficient analysis and calculus capabilities. It seems to have a lot
less functions that the HP, and this is partly why I call the ROM
programming of the HP superior in principle, but not in praxis (ARM).
? vector calculating capabilities
+ full-blown spreadsheet. But I have yet to find out how good it is
really.
+ sufficient number of statistical functions. But are there good ways
to visualize the results?
That's it for now.
Regards,
Michael Kuyumcu
JB schrieb:
Michael Kuyumcu
Michael Kuyumcu
Jean-Yves Avenard schrieb:
Michael Kuyumcu
to see if the device meets the curricular requirements for my math
classes. But if you post a few representative timing challenges here, I
will be glad to have them executed :-)
Regards,
Harold A. Climer
wrote:
SNIP SNIP
>Strangely, HP does not seem interested in aquainting new generations of
>students with their - conceptually superior - calculators. As TI,
>Casio, and Sciface give the schools these 120 free units, in return,
>the schools bind themselves to equip the following three years of
>students with the same devices - at the school's cost! So these
>companies gain a first firm standing in the schools, every student will
>know their products, and will probably continue to buy and use them
>also when school is over and they attend university.
When many teachers in the US have to spend part of their own meager
salaries for paper and pencils etc for their students, I don think
this method of getting calculators out in the schools would work
because of the costs involved.
HP is going to have to donate calculators to some schools systems
My dad, now passed away ,in his twenty five years of teaching spent
his own money quite a few times on textbooks. workbooks, paper,
pencils, etc for his classes ,because the books provided by the
schools system were almost 10 years old.
.
Harold A. Climer
Dept.Of Physics,Geology,and Astronomy
University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
Chattanooga TN USA 37403
Yao Konan
> the disturbing lack of 3d plotting, how do you rate it? I'd rather
> have the 3-d capability and more math capability such as Laplace
> transforms than the extra speed. Of course having it all would be even
> better. - JB
As TW has said i am just reacting to what is reported by Michael who is
testing the TI-Nspire.Actually i am quite impressed by the speed of the
NSpire even if i am disapointed by the lack of 3D plotting,advanced
programming and of more advanced maths functions.
For the programming i hope that there will be a way to program it in
C++ and a SDK to enable applications developpement.
However i am sure that TI is serious about replacing Derive by
TI-NSpire thus either there will be 2 versions of the TI-NSpire or TI
plans to strongly improve the software in the future.
In fact i don't understand why TI has used AMS 3.10 as the base for the
CAS when it would have been better to use Derive instead.
Yao Konan
TI92 series:
2 speed tests:
---------------------------
*taylor(tan(tanh(x))-tanh(tan(x)),x,7)
*(seq(seq(1/(sqrt(2*i+1)+I*sqrt(2*j+1)),i,1,4),j,1,4))^-1
A memory test:
----------------------
*randmat(60,60),to see if it can handle algebraic objects bigger than
32 KB
Limit of the exact mode for integer:
---------------------------------------------------
*300! and 450!
I is the imaginary number
sqrt stand for the square root function.
Btw,you said that one can only save documents,does that mean that one
can not manage variables and functions within a document ?
Does that also mean that you can save only one note session or
spreadsheet or plotting session per document ?
Thanks.
Michael Kuyumcu a écrit :
Michael Kuyumcu
each. The cost, in relation to development and marketing of the new
machine, should be bearable for TI. Anyhow, the participating schools
were bound by the ministry of education to buy many more units for the
subsequent generations of students.
If Casio, TI, and Sciface can afford to run this model project, why
can't hp? In comparison, their calculators would not get high grades
from the students. If you have a TI nspire and a HP 49g+ side by side
and, as a student, should decide which one to use, I bet 90% or more
will opt for the TI. It's so much more appealing, fast and comfortable
to operate. So I guess I know why hp didn't participate...
We too, by the way, have to work with old books sometimes. In the case
of the upcoming analytic geometry class, there is no book at all
available at our school. So I purchased some online, and had to use my
own money for that as well. But the contents of these works rarely
change on the school level...
Regards,
Michael Kuyumcu
Harold A. Climer schrieb:
John H Meyers
> My dad, now passed away, in his twenty five years of teaching
> spent his own money quite a few times on textbooks. workbooks,
> paper, pencils, etc for his classes, because the books provided
> by the school system were almost 10 years old.
"A teacher affects eternity;
he can never tell where his influence stops." [Henry Adams]
http://www.pbs.org/onlyateacher/about1.html
Best wishes from http://www.mum.edu
and http://www.maharishischooliowa.org
JB
Hi Konan,
> For the programming i hope that there will be a way to program it in
> C++
really exciting! Tons of people have done C++ programming, myself
included, and if I could program the tinspire in C++ I would take a new
interest in programming calculators. I've been kind of bummed out on
programming calculators because when I switched from an 84 to the v200,
the programming wasn't the same and I don't want to have to learn new
programming techniques or languages every couple of years when I buy a
new calculator. But C++ on the tinspire would be a ++ for that
calculator. Then if they put 3D graphing on it and add some of the
missing functions like Laplace transforms and have some kind of plug in
memory stick, that would be awesome!!!
Jean-Yves Avenard
> What make you think that the TI-Nspire runs at over 100 Mhz ?
of them can go over 100Mhz easily
> Anyway,i think that it is incredible because the NSpire certainly uses
> the same algorithms as the TI68k and BCD,yet it seems from 16 to almost
> 20 times faster than my TI92+ for BCD floating operations.
> So this means that TI has done quite a good job on the TI-Nspire
> software.
The TI92/89 is known to use an OS and software entirely programed in C.
So porting this software on N'spire would have been trivial. Much more
so than HP who would have to rewrite almost 100% of its code base.
The speed difference you're talking about is directly related to the
speed difference of a 68K processor vs an ARM9
JY
Jean-Yves Avenard
> However i am sure that TI is serious about replacing Derive by
> TI-NSpire thus either there will be 2 versions of the TI-NSpire or TI
it could very well be the same math engine as the TI89/92.
They must have spent thousands of engineer days writing this software,
would be crazy not to leverage it in newer machine.
JY
Yao Konan
will certainly provide for the TI-NSpire.
If they don't than i bet that it would be a matter of time before a
third party provide one.
I am very curious to know what kind of CPU the TI-NSpire has.
For 3D graphing support,i think that soon or late TI will add,otherwise
the TI-NSpire will lack a significant features in front of its main
competitor:The Casio ClassPad,especially if what is rumored about the
ClassPad OS 3.0 is true for 3D parametric surfaces plotting.And while
doing this,i hope that TI will also added basic 3D geometry support to
enable one to work with sphere,cubes,3D curves,etc...
They should perhaps add a 3D Geometry and graphing application ?
Moreover,i hope that TI will also add support for more advanced
functions unless of course the TI-NSpire targets only high school but i
do remember that we were doing quite advanced stuff when i was in hgih
school.For example i cleary remeber that we have done 3D geometry in
high school.
It is true that there are a ton of TI-Basic advanced maths functions
and that with the TI-NSpire speed they should run faster than
competitor built-in functions,but there are
2 catches:
Is it possible to port all TI-Basic math package to the TI-NSpire
especially considering the lack of programs support ?
And more important is it possible to define functions as global
functions availlable through all the documents as from what i have
understood both variables and functions are local to a document ?
Yao Konan
Jean-Yves Avenard wrote:
> Yao Konan wrote:
> > What make you think that the TI-Nspire runs at over 100 Mhz ?
> Being TI they are certainly using a TI ARM9 processor (omap family), all
> of them can go over 100Mhz easily
I am not too sure TI would use TI omap in the TI-NSpire.
I should look for information but it doesn't look as power efficient as
other member of the ARM familly.
And why would TI want to push the CPU to such a high frequency as they
care so much for autonomy ?
> The TI92/89 is known to use an OS and software entirely programed in C.
> So porting this software on N'spire would have been trivial. Much more
> so than HP who would have to rewrite almost 100% of its code base.
>
> The speed difference you're talking about is directly related to the
> speed difference of a 68K processor vs an ARM9
Even for BCD floating point computations ?
Because both of the speed test with the 20*20 matrix involved intensive
BCD floating point computations unless TI use binary floating point
computations and in that case the speed of the TI-NSpire would be a bit
disapointing.
> JY
Yao Konan
> Yao Konan wrote:
> > However i am sure that TI is serious about replacing Derive by
> > TI-NSpire thus either there will be 2 versions of the TI-NSpire or TI
> What make you think that NSpire isn't using the Derive engine?
> it could very well be the same math engine as the TI89/92.
It is the same math engine as the TI89/TI92 and this is where lies the
problem.
TI should have used the PC Derive engine(not the relatively limited
version of the TI89/TI92+) for the TI-NSpire thus providing most
features of Derive to the TI-Nspire.
Something they will have to do anyway as they plan to stop Derive
development and replace it by the TI-Nspire platform.
However it remains to be seen if there won't be two TI-NSpire version
one as limited as the current one for students and more advanced one
which will effectively replace Derive and built from scratch with the
complete Derive CAS engine.
Actually you won't get more CAS functionnalities from the TI-NSpire
than from the TI89TI/Voyage 200 as both use exactly the same CAS a.k.a
the one of the AMS 3.10.
> They must have spent thousands of engineer days writing this software,
> would be crazy not to leverage it in newer machine.
They have leveraged it but not the good version.
> JY
Michael Kuyumcu
o the taylor series development didn't yield a result after 253
minutes, when I cancelled.
o randmat(60,60) works
o any integer may not be longer than 614 digits. I find that limit
downright silly.
o 300! fails (the nspire responds with "300!"), and 450! fails,too.
That's very limited.
o the (seq...) constructs yields an error message: "Too few arguments"
What do you mean by "managing variables" within a document? You can
define them, undefine them, edit them, redefine them, delete them, view
their contents. You can have as many notes, graphs, calculators and
spreadsheets per document as you like.
Regards,
Michael Kuyumcu
Yao Konan schrieb:
> Ok i have just a few tests which take a long time or fail on the the
Steen Schmidt
> Interesting: fib(10000) produces an overflow, even in Exact mode,
Rather disappointing. It seems to have maintained the limitations of
the TI89/v200 - it's probably an exact recompile of the core OS used in
those calculators.
> while the CAS seems to be capable of handling multiple-precision
> numbers otherwise with no problems.fib(1000) works, and does so
> within 2 seconds.
Takes 0.05 seconds on the HP50G. It would be cool if the NSpire could
be coded in C or C++ for sure, but I believe the OS is too limited to
realize the full potential of such programming.
Regards
Steen
Yao Konan
Michael Kuyumcu a écrit :
> Hi,
>
> o the taylor series development didn't yield a result after 253
> minutes, when I cancelled.
So i think that not only it does use the same algorithm of the
TI92+(which returns a memory error after 50 min) but this alogrithm is
useless on this kind of problem if the TI-NSpire fails with both much
greater speed and much more memory.
> o randmat(60,60) works
Sorry,i meant approx(randmat(60,60)) or randmat(120,120) which will
surely exceeds the 32 KB limit.
> o any integer may not be longer than 614 digits. I find that limit
> downright silly.
> o 300! fails (the nspire responds with "300!"), and 450! fails,too.
> That's very limited.
It is exactly the same limitations as all calculators of the TI92
series.
> o the (seq...) constructs yields an error message: "Too few arguments"
Curious i will try to rewrite it:
seq(seq(1/(sqrt(2*i+1)+I*sqrt(2*j+1)),i,1,4),j,1,4)^-1,
But i think that it is better to use the following one:
seq(seq(1/(sqrt(2*i+1)+I*sqrt(2*j+1)),i,1,3),j,1,3)^-1
as the former has taken over an hour on my TI92+ without completing.
This problem underlines the difficulty that the TI92 series has with
matrix incorporating both complex and square root expressions.
> What do you mean by "managing variables" within a document? You can
> define them, undefine them, edit them, redefine them, delete them, view
> their contents. You can have as many notes, graphs, calculators and
> spreadsheets per document as you like.
I wondered if there was a variable manager availlable for each
document.
However what you wrote is very interesting.
So it is possible to have as many document as possible,
And within each document it is possible to have as many problems as one
want and one can add up to 4 applications to a problem,right ?
Best regards.
Yao Konan
>
> > Interesting: fib(10000) produces an overflow, even in Exact mode,
>
> Rather disappointing. It seems to have maintained the limitations of
> the TI89/v200 - it's probably an exact recompile of the core OS used in
> those calculators.
I think that it is not an exact recompile of the core OS but certainly
a recompile of the PC version because it seems that some limitations
have been removed such as the 8 characters limit for variables names
and some of the memory limitations.
However it is more than sure that some limitations remain.
> > while the CAS seems to be capable of handling multiple-precision
> > numbers otherwise with no problems.fib(1000) works, and does so
> > within 2 seconds.
>
> Takes 0.05 seconds on the HP50G.
It takes 0.05 seconds with a C program ?
Because i doubt that it would take 0.05 s in RPL.
> It would be cool if the NSpire could
> be coded in C or C++ for sure, but I believe the OS is too limited to
> realize the full potential of such programming.
We shall see.
> Regards
> Steen
Steen Schmidt
> However it is more than sure that some limitations remain.
Most of the limitations it seems. Directory structure for one, as well
as all the math limitations.
> > Takes 0.05 seconds on the HP50G.
>
> It takes 0.05 seconds with a C program ?
> Because i doubt that it would take 0.05 s in RPL.
The C program probably executes in 0.01 seconds or less - the rest is
the RPL wrapper. The FIBNUM function executes out of the emulator
completely transparent to the user - i.e. it works as any other
function in the Saturn environment.
But for your analogy to work we assume the NSpire emulates the 68k like
the HP49G+/50G emulates the Saturn? Since I expect the OS to be
recompiled for the processor used in the NSpire, I'd expected the
performance to be nearer what we achieve in C on the HPs. I'd have
expected something like FIBNUM(10000) to run in 0.5 seconds or
thereabout.
But in UserRPL the recursive Fibonacci formula traverses to
FIBNUM(1000) in 4 seconds on a HP50G.
> > It would be cool if the NSpire could
> > be coded in C or C++ for sure, but I believe the OS is too limited
> > to realize the full potential of such programming.
>
> We shall see.
For sure.
Cheers,
Steen
Jean-Yves Avenard
> Even for BCD floating point computations ?
> Because both of the speed test with the 20*20 matrix involved intensive
> BCD floating point computations unless TI use binary floating point
> computations and in that case the speed of the TI-NSpire would be a bit
> disapointing.
Neither the 68K nor the ARM9 are great for doing BCD calculations,
actually there are no processors these days able to perform BCD on more
than 8 bits register...
So BCD calculations are only made using software.
TI has never used binary floating point in the past (they surely didn't
with the TI89 or 92) why would they change that in any new calculators ?
JY
Jean-Yves Avenard
> Takes 0.05 seconds on the HP50G. It would be cool if the NSpire could
> be coded in C or C++ for sure, but I believe the OS is too limited to
> realize the full potential of such programming.
You can do C/C++ without any OS if you wanted to.
JY
Steen Schmidt
I'm thinking about the integration of the C++ program with the
exisiting system. How would you benefit from a faster implementation of
the factorial function for instance, when you still can't represent the
output of 300! exact when you return from the C++ program?
You can do games and such, but when you need to do some data IO with
the OS (even a plotter app does that), you're bound by the limitations
of the existing OS (data types, argument ranges, file structure etc).
Regards
Steen
Michael Kuyumcu
I just retried
"seq(seq(1/(sqrt(2*i+1)+I*sqrt(2*j+1)),i,1,4),j,1,4)^-1", and now it
works, except that the calc answers with "Errro: singular matrix" after
a second or so. The same error message is given for
"seq(seq(1/(sqrt(2*i+1)+I*sqrt(2*j+1)),i,1,3),j,1,3)^-1". Is this a
singular matrix? Well, let's see:
I evaluated:
"seq(seq(1/(sqrt(2*i+1)+I*sqrt(2*j+1)),i,1,3),j,1,3)"
(the result was there in a fraction of a second)
and then
"det(ans)"
which yielded "0"
So if the determinant determination algorithm works correctly, this
indeed is an impossible problem.
When I want to find out how long a certain operation takes, can I use
any TIMING measuring function? I haven't found anything in the PC
software reference guide which claims to be 100% compatible. Do you
know of any method?
There is no "variable manager", no.
"approx(randmat(60,60))" still works,
so the mentioned memory limit seems to have been removed.
> So it is possible to have as many document as possible,
> And within each document it is possible to have as many problems as one
> want and one can add up to 4 applications to a problem,right ?
Right. I just tested that.
Do you happen to know whether there are user-written or commercial
packages available for the TI-92 or Voyage series that do
multiple-precision math on floating point numbers (like with 900 digits
or such) written in machine language? I find it extremely limited that
the nspire fails to calculate 300!, and does not support any floats
with more than 14 digits (internally up to 17). Booooh!
Paul Schlyter
If you do C/C++ without any OS, you have no such limitations. I mean,
in such a situation there is no OS; so how could a non-existent OS limit
you?
Otoh you won't have any support from the OS either - your program must,
by itself, directly talk to any hardware you want to use. If you want
to use a harddisk with a file system on it, you're of course bound by that
file system if you want to coexist with other files there -- but it's an
option, not mandatory. You could just read and write raw sectors from
the harddisk if you wanted, or create your own file system.
An application which runs, all by itself without any need of OS support,
is called a stand-alone application. In the early days of the microcomputer,
games or Basic interpreters were often written as stand-alone applications.
From the user's point of view, the Basic interpreter *was* the OS of such
a computer.
>Regards
>Steen
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Schlyter, Grev Turegatan 40, SE-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN
e-mail: pausch at stockholm dot bostream dot se
WWW: http://stjarnhimlen.se/
Steen Schmidt
> > You can do games and such, but when you need to do some data IO with
> > the OS (even a plotter app does that), you're bound by the
> > limitations of the existing OS (data types, argument ranges, file
> > structure etc).
>
> If you do C/C++ without any OS, you have no such limitations. I mean,
> in such a situation there is no OS; so how could a non-existent OS
> limit you?
What would you do when you have calculated 10000! ? Would you display
the 35660 digits on the screen for the user to decipher one at a time?
What if the result was to be used by a subsequent calculation? Or let's
say you coded a new symbolic integration engine in C - how would you
output the integral of 'Exp(X^2),X'? The result is
'1/2*Sqrt(pi)*Erfi(X)', but Erfi(X) isn't defined in the TI AMS. You
could code Erfi(X) in C, but the result had to reside temporarily in
the TI OS environment, until the user decides to do something else with
the result (evaluate it numerically or integrate it again etc.). What
object type would Erfi(X) be in this case, inside the TI AMS?
The OS (and its aux sw like parsers, type checkers, CAS etc.) limits
you in what you can return to it or get as arguments from it. On the HP
we have built-in data types for arbitrary precision numbers, arrays of
any type etc. There are libraries with support for user-defined
functions that behave exactly like built-in functions. This is not the
case on the TI - not even on the NSpire. The latter I find
disappointing, as it would be a good time to step up from the silly
limitations of the TI92/92+/V200/89/89ti series.
But TI will probably not do this, as the open structure of the HP OS
opens up for a hornets nest of bug possibilities. If you look at how
flexible the HP OS is - how much is available for the user - then it's
obvious that there's much greater risk of bugs existing therein in
comparison with the closed TI OS.
All the above is moot of course, in the event you'd want to code your
own OS in C/C++. And even in that case, it would probably have to be
done over a couple of times, as you'd probably not succeed in putting
in all the features another programmer wished for, in which case that
other programmer had to code his or her own special OS etc...
Regards
Steen
Yao Konan
Michael Kuyumcu a écrit :
> Hi,
>
> I just retried
> "seq(seq(1/(sqrt(2*i+1)+I*sqrt(2*j+1)),i,1,4),j,1,4)^-1", and now it
> works, except that the calc answers with "Errro: singular matrix" after
> a second or so. The same error message is given for
> "seq(seq(1/(sqrt(2*i+1)+I*sqrt(2*j+1)),i,1,3),j,1,3)^-1". Is this a
> singular matrix? Well, let's see:
> I evaluated:
> "seq(seq(1/(sqrt(2*i+1)+I*sqrt(2*j+1)),i,1,3),j,1,3)"
> (the result was there in a fraction of a second)
> and then
> "det(ans)"
> which yielded "0"
Doesn't seem to look like a singular matrix but my TI92+ fails to
compute the determinant after over hour so i cancel the
operation.However in approximate mode,it does return a non null complex
expressions.
> So if the determinant determination algorithm works correctly, this
> indeed is an impossible problem.
So we could try with a slighty modifier matrix such as:
seq(seq(1/(sqrt(2*i+1-I*(3*j+2))),i,1,3),j,1,3) which certainly not
singular and which seems to give even more trouble to the TI92+.
> When I want to find out how long a certain operation takes, can I use
> any TIMING measuring function? I haven't found anything in the PC
> software reference guide which claims to be 100% compatible. Do you
> know of any method?
There is one on the TI89T/Voyage 200.
startTmr()->chrono:
Computation:
checkTmr(chrono)
The last instruction will return the timing of the Computation in
seconds.
However it remains to be seen if it works on the TI-Nspire.
> There is no "variable manager", no.
So it shouldn't be easy to manage variables within a document.
> "approx(randmat(60,60))" still works,
> so the mentioned memory limit seems to have been removed.
It seems so.That would explain why some operations which returns a
memory error on the
TI92+ doesn't do the same on the TI-NSpire.
> Do you happen to know whether there are user-written or commercial
> packages available for the TI-92 or Voyage series that do
> multiple-precision math on floating point numbers (like with 900 digits
> or such) written in machine language? I find it extremely limited that
> the nspire fails to calculate 300!, and does not support any floats
> with more than 14 digits (internally up to 17). Booooh!
Unfortunately i am not aware of any match package which add arbitrary
floating point number as well as virtually unlimited number arithmetic
on the TI92 series.
All math packages i know deal with the built-in number arithmetic and
just add functionnality to the calculators.
However if TI want seriously to replace Derive with the TI-NSpire,they
will have to remove all these kinds of limitations.
> Regards,
> Michael Kuyumcu
Best regards.
Michael Kuyumcu
I just tested:
o "seq(seq(1/(sqrt(2*i+1-I*(3*j+2))),i,1,3),j,1,3)^-1", which yields
"Singular matrix", and then
o "seq(seq(1/(sqrt(2*i+1)+I*sqrt(3*j+2)),i,1,3),j,1,3)^-1", and again:
"Singular matrix".
I havent's double-checked with the hp49g+ whether or not this matrix is
in fact singular, but if not, we might have hit on a CAS error.
Regards,
Michael
Yao Konan schrieb:
Michael Kuyumcu
with multiple precision. Why didn't HP follow through on implementing
multiple-precision arithmetic also for floats? Now that the basic
routines are in place, it just needs consideration of the decimal
point... That's really poor calculus design (as on the TIs).
Michael Kuyumcu
Steen Schmidt schrieb:
Michael Kuyumcu
Michael Kuyumcu
Yao Konan schrieb:
> If it is possible to plot 3D graph this command should enabe it,if the
> NSpire behaves like the TI92:
> setmode("Graph","3D"):Graph (x^3*y-y^3*x)/390
>
> Michael Kuyumcu a écrit :
>
> > Is there a quick way to test 3D functions plotting capabilities. I
> > mean, now that we know that programming constructs work in functions,
> > maybe you could come up with 4 or 5 lines of test codes for 3D
> > plotting? Of course, I don't know whether that kind of programming
> > would be so easy, but if it is, maybe you would like to try it?
> >
> > Anyway, thanks for considering it!
> >
> > Regards,
> > Michael Kuyumcu
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yao Konan schrieb:
> >
> > > Thanks for the information.
> > > It is surprising that 3D plotting is not easily availlable as it is one
> > > of my favorite feature of those advanced calc and in fact one of the
> > > main marketing argument for the TI92 when it was introduced in 1995.
> > > For programming of the Tool assuming that it has a similar user
> > > language to the TI92,you can find some help from the TI89TI/Voyage 200
> > > guidebook availlable from the TI site here:
> > > http://education.ti.com/educationportal/appsdelivery/download/download_eula.jsp?cid=us&displayMode=G&applicationid=6128&contentpaneid=17
> > >
> > > Eventually i could give you additionnal help if needed as i happen to
> > > be quite strong with TI92 Basic.
> > > I think that you could write programs with the Note editor then
> > > tokenize and save them from the calculator screen.
> > > For exemple the famous Hello world:
> > > Define hello()=Prgm:
> > > Text "Hello Wolrd":EndPrgm
> > > Execute from the calculator apps,this should create the program which
> > > when called as
> > > hello() should show a window with the message.
> > >
> > > Michael Kuyumcu a écrit :
> > >
> > > > Hi Jean-Yves,
> > > >
> > > > no touch sreen, just a small circular plastic pad which is sensitive to
> > > > finger presses and with which you can push the pointer arrow on the
> > > > screen into any direction (diagonally works, too). There are additional
> > > > arrow keys which basically do the same thing but much more slowly
> > > > (pixel-wise). The pointer speed is ok now, but will be too slow when I
> > > > have gotten used to it, I think. There is no way to change the speed,
> > > > although there are a couple of other general "system settings". The
> > > > device is completely menu-driven, just like any ordinary PC, you can
> > > > have any number of documents open at one time, among them a
> > > > spreadsheet, which is much like Excel. It features local and global
> > > > cell references, and the whole apparatus for symbolic math (the CAS
> > > > core) can be used in any cell. There is an automated sequence generator
> > > > for the spreadsheet, too, which is nice when doing pseudo-random test
> > > > series. The basic principle is that you have a "problem" (that's how TI
> > > > calls the Nspire documents, I hope the docs won't cause any) to which
> > > > you can assign up to four different applications (CAS, graphics,
> > > > spreadsheet, and notes). Changes in variables, definitions and so forth
> > > > in any of the environments immediately and dynamically affect all
> > > > assigned applications.
> > > >
> > > > In fact, I like the device a lot so far. It features a big clear
> > > > screen, which is just a tad too dark for me and could have been coated
> > > > in a way to better prevent light reflections. It seems to be
> > > > programmable (there are flow control constructs, Goto Label command,
> > > > and the like). I just have not written any program yet, and don't know
> > > > how to (where to write it and how to run it and so on), since there is
> > > > no written documentation with the calculator, and the last TI I have
> > > > programmed was the TI 66. In fact, I learned programming on that
> > > > calc... nostalgia... Can anyone point me to programming ressources for
> > > > the Voyage or the TI-92? Maybe the systems will turn out to be similar.
> > > > I have not noted any options for assembler programming (which is one of
> > > > my favorite pastimes).
> > > >
> > > > I have found numerous graphics plotting capabilities, but none dealing
> > > > with 3D so far. But then, I had the Nspire running for only 30 minutes
> > > > roughly yet.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Michael Kuyumcu
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Michael.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you for your post.
> > > > >
> > > > > It looks like TI made the best use of the waiting time and created a
> > > > > learning device similar to what Xpander should have been.
> > > > > Is the calculator using a touch screen or like what it appears on photo
> > > > > just a little joystick? if yes, how does it work? do you like it?
> > > > >
> > > > > Does it have a spreadsheet? how does it work?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Too bad HP was left behind technologically. I agree with your earlier
> > > > > comments.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jean-Yves
Yao Konan
Have you tried in approx mode ?
Because on my TI92+ both matrix(especially the first one) don't look
singular in approx mode.
The determinant computations take too much time.
Regards,
Konan Yao
Michael Kuyumcu a écrit :
Steen Schmidt
> Arbitrary precision numbers on the HP? I am aware only of integers
> with multiple precision. Why didn't HP follow through on implementing
> multiple-precision arithmetic also for floats?
The data type is built-in for arbitrary floating point real and complex
numbers (type 27). If you install the Longfloat library you also have
arbitrary floating point arithmetic at your fingertips (using that
built-in datatype). Pi to 200 decimal places in 2.5 seconds for
instance. And that is not in C.
Regards
Steen
Jean-Yves Avenard
> Arbitrary precision numbers on the HP? I am aware only of *integers*
> with multiple precision. Why didn't HP follow through on implementing
> multiple-precision arithmetic also for floats? Now that the basic
up to 524,288 digits with an exponent of up to 524,288 digits
Of course you can't ever create such number due to the RAM limitation.
JY
Paul Schlyter
Steen Schmidt <ssch...@nospam.dk> wrote:
> Paul Schlyter wrote:
>
>>> You can do games and such, but when you need to do some data IO with
>>> the OS (even a plotter app does that), you're bound by the
>>> limitations of the existing OS (data types, argument ranges, file
>>> structure etc).
>>
>> If you do C/C++ without any OS, you have no such limitations. I mean,
>> in such a situation there is no OS; so how could a non-existent OS
>> limit you?
>
> What would you do when you have calculated 10000! ? Would you display
> the 35660 digits on the screen for the user to decipher one at a time?
:-) ...an interesting suggestion. If one new digit is displayed each second,
it would take almost 10 hours to display the result, since:
10000! = 2.846259680917054518906413212119868890148051401702799230794179
99427441134000376444377299078675778477581588406214231752883004233994015
3518739052421161383E+35659 ...approximately
> What if the result was to be used by a subsequent calculation? Or let's
> say you coded a new symbolic integration engine in C - how would you
> output the integral of 'Exp(X^2),X'?
By turning on the appropriate pixels in the display, of course!
> The result is
> '1/2*Sqrt(pi)*Erfi(X)', but Erfi(X) isn't defined in the TI AMS. You
> could code Erfi(X) in C, but the result had to reside temporarily in
> the TI OS environment,
WHAT "TI OS" ???? I was discussing a C or C++ program without any OS....
> until the user decides to do something else with
> the result (evaluate it numerically or integrate it again etc.). What
> object type would Erfi(X) be in this case, inside the TI AMS?
>
> The OS (and its aux sw like parsers, type checkers, CAS etc.) limits
> you in what you can return to it or get as arguments from it. On the HP
> we have built-in data types for arbitrary precision numbers, arrays of
> any type etc. There are libraries with support for user-defined
> functions that behave exactly like built-in functions. This is not the
> case on the TI - not even on the NSpire. The latter I find
> disappointing, as it would be a good time to step up from the silly
> limitations of the TI92/92+/V200/89/89ti series.
>
> But TI will probably not do this, as the open structure of the HP OS
> opens up for a hornets nest of bug possibilities. If you look at how
> flexible the HP OS is - how much is available for the user - then it's
> obvious that there's much greater risk of bugs existing therein in
> comparison with the closed TI OS.
>
> All the above is moot of course, in the event you'd want to code your
> own OS in C/C++. And even in that case, it would probably have to be
> done over a couple of times, as you'd probably not succeed in putting
> in all the features another programmer wished for, in which case that
> other programmer had to code his or her own special OS etc...
Coding without any OS support is indeed a lot of work - if your program
is non-trivial.
Michael Kuyumcu
buggy, or what?
Regards,
Michael Kuyumcu
Yao Konan schrieb:
> Hi Michael,
Michael Kuyumcu
info at hpcalc.org?
Great!
Regards,
Michael Kuyumcu