48GX V.S. 49G
Jay D. Little
I have used a HP 48G for about 6 years now and was very satisfied with
it. Considering it came out around 93-94, it was light years ahead of TI at
that time. Even now that TI has caught up I definitely still prefer the
48G/GX interface. When my 48G broke recently I bought a 49G but was
actually very disappointed with the changes that had been made to make the
user interface more TI-like. In the end I returned the 49G and bought a
48GX which I am much happier with. Just curious what other people who have
the 49G have thought of it in comparison to the 48 model series?
Thanks,
Jay
Steen S. Schmidt
> it. Considering it came out around 93-94, it was light years ahead of TI
at
> that time. Even now that TI has caught up I definitely still prefer the
> 48G/GX interface. When my 48G broke recently I bought a 49G but was
> actually very disappointed with the changes that had been made to make the
> user interface more TI-like.
The HP49G interface is exactly the same as the '48 series when you're in RPN
mode and has menus instead of choose-boxes selected.
I don't see where you find the HP48GX better than the HP49G? What didn't you
like in the '49?
Regards
Steen
Wolfgang Rautenberg
"Steen S. Schmidt" wrote:
> > ...actually very disappointed with the changes
> > that had been made to make the
> > user interface more TI-like.
> The HP49G interface is exactly the same as the '48 series when
> you're in RPN > mode and has menus instead of choose-boxes selected.
> ...
Hi Steen,
I would'nt say so. The keyboard interface is very
different and perhaps not as convenient on the HP49
as is could be. The difference is perhaps best
discribed this way:
If you've learned to play the standard accordion
and suddenly are forced to play on a bottom-key
accordion, you'll come into troubles. But I've
heard bottom-accordion musicians playing as fast
and perfect as a normal player, provided they are
used to their instruments from the very beginning.
Regards Wolfgang
Gregory S. Norton
Fit and finish on the 49G are awful. I had multiple exchanges with
the retailer and with HP service because of issues with the physical
characteristics of the calculator (paint, plastic, keyboard).
Finally, after a year of messing with it and getting no response to
requests for a refund or replacement from HP, I took the 49G with box
into a large retailer and lied my ass off about it being "a gift" so
that I could get store credit for a 48GX.
HP LIES about a refund process being available for the HP49. If
you're really unhappy, they couldn't give a shit. If you ask for one
from customer service, you are given an address in Vancouver, WA that
I am convinced is just a secretary tasked to haul the letters to the
trash. Any HP employees monitoring this newsgroup are welcome to
prove me wrong.
GSN
Mathias Habel
defective keyboard, so i needed a new one. Unfortunately I had lost the
bill, so I could not go to the original dealer and therefore i called the
german HP Service center. As the HP49 was new on the german market, it was
no problem to get a replacement for it, even without the bill. It took 4
week to get it, though....
From point of hardware quality, i think that overall its more stable than a
HP48. (BTW, i own a HP48). In my opinion this is mostly due to the (very
incriminated ;)) plastic cover over the LCD. If you read this newsgroup
regularily, you´ll see, that most defective HP49 have a broken LCD.
The keyboard of the seems not to be as good as the one of the HP48, but as
JYA told in post some time ago, the HP49 keyboard is more stable in the
temperature aging test of HP quality labs then the HP48 keyboard...
Maybe HP had some quality problems in the beginning, but now i think it
should be riskless to by a HP49 ;)
Al last the software of the HP49 is much better than the one of the HP48.
Mathias
"Gregory S. Norton" <gregn...@worldnet.att.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:39bb835a...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
Beto
Jay D. Little <jlit...@gmu.edu> wrote in message
news:8pfh5s$5...@portal.gmu.edu...
> In the end I returned the 49G and bought a
> 48GX which I am much happier with. Just curious what other people who
have
> the 49G have thought of it in comparison to the 48 model series?
Well, I owned a HP48GX for about two years before I sold it to get a 49G...
and I couldn't be happier with my choice... I had 12Kb free in my 48 and in
my 49 I can't get to fill the half of its memory.
And the usage and interface its almost the same... just need to get rid of
that annoying ALG-Mode.
--
Beto
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
"Jay D. Little" <jlit...@gmu.edu> wrote in message
news:8pfh5s$5...@portal.gmu.edu...
X
Tony T. Warnock
back from the 48gx in user interface. Many common keystroke sequences
now are shifted: MTH, PRG, and the ' ' stuff. The stack manipulation
buttons are hidden (some even on the 48.) DEL takes an extra keystroke
compared to BACKSPACE, so one might as well to space, backspace, as del.
The SPC key is next to the ENTER key (which is small anyway.) The stack
seems to work differently: on the 48gx, one could do 2, 5, SWAP, on the
49g, one must do 2, 5, ENTER, SWAP; however 2, Pi, SWAP works
differently in the 49g. The buttons don't respond as crisply. Most
programs I have run from 10% to 300% slower.
Mathias Habel
> Most programs I have run from 10% to 300% slower.
This is often due to the fact, that you are using integers instead of reals
in the programs ( e. g for loop counting etc.). By using reals you should
see, that the HP49 is as fast as the HP48.
Mathias
Wolfgang Rautenberg
"Tony T. Warnock" wrote:
>
> I have to agree with the orignator of the thread. The 49g is a big step
> back from the 48gx in user interface. Many common keystroke sequences
> now are shifted: MTH, PRG, and the ' ' stuff. The stack manipulation
> buttons are hidden (some even on the 48.) DEL takes an extra keystroke
> compared to BACKSPACE, so one might as well to space, backspace, as del.
I agree with you to some extend. Because you
(and many other 49-owners) where used to the
48-keyboard. As I said already in an earlier
message to this topic, the situation is
comparable to that of a standard accordion
player who suddenly is forced to play a
button-key accordion. It's confusing the
first few month. Later you used to it.
- Wolfgang
Tom Sears
>
> I have to agree with the orignator of the thread. The 49g is a big
> step back from the 48gx in user interface. Many common keystroke
> sequences now are shifted: MTH, PRG, and the ' ' stuff. The stack
> manipulation buttons are hidden (some even on the 48.) DEL takes an
I, too, would have preferred to have seen more of my favorite keys
unshifted. However, several aspects of the user interface are now
much improved over the '48 (IMO):
1. the ability to use the arrow keys in alpha mode. (at last!)
2. the new fast equation editor lessens need for unshifted ' ' for
algebraics (and helps with parentheses as well).
3. the ability to suspend edits with HALT (in TOOLS) to create
objects on the stack or with equation writer or matrix writer which
can PASTEd back to your CONTinued edit session.
4. the ability to use the new KEYEVAL command with negative keycodes
to move or swap even non-programmable keys to your preferred locations.
(Use downloaded GOKEY program so the assignments work in edit).
5. the Filer (much faster and more usable than the 48g memory app).
6. customizable font sizes and header to allow more lines to show
for stack display or edits.
I admit it takes time to get used to all the changes, but for
me it has been well worth the effort.
Best regards,
Tom
Barry
easy to use interface to more difficult interface since the 48SX
and possibly earlier. I began with the SX.
With the SX they weren't fitting a lot of stuff in. It was a new
design and it was layed out very carefully. I don't know this but
I'll bet the design of the interface even had some effect on the
selection of features. It was very elegant.
With the 48G series and now the 49, they added a lot of stuff. But
they didn't add a lot of keys. So they naturally had to stuff a
lot of things anyplace they could.
I also don't like some of the choices that were made on the 49.
There seems to be more emphasis on lots of ways to do everything,
ala Windows, than in the earlier calcs, and less concern for the
number of keystrokes needed.
On the other hand, there are a LOT of functions packed into a very
few keys. Maybe the real answer would have been some built-in
context sensitive help. But that would have taken up quite a bit
of ROM space and made the design a lot more complex than it already
is.
Barry
"Tom Sears" <toms...@sockets.net> wrote in message
news:39BD9412...@sockets.net...
savage
> ...selection of features. It was very elegant.
I very much share these thoughts.
> With the 48G series and now the 49, they added a lot of stuff. But
> they didn't add a lot of keys. So they naturally had to stuff a
> lot of things anyplace they could.
I don't completly buy this explaination... they still could have been much
more selective and logical about key assignments--regardless! It just takes
more thoughtfulness unless it was by design to mimic their competitors and
concentrate solely on the educational market.
> I also don't like some of the choices that were made on the 49.
> There seems to be more emphasis on lots of ways to do everything,
> ala Windows, than in the earlier calcs, and less concern for the
> number of keystrokes needed.
Generally I aggree, but... I once heard it said, in reference to Bill
Clinton when all the Monica Lewinsky stuff was going on: "that his
(Clinton's) problem was that his desire to become President happend at the
same time puberty was setting in." Similarly, I think this is a source of
problems with the 49. To my recollection, Rick Grivelle posted in this NG,
about the time that the 49 was first released, that someone he knows said
that the 49 was "made for kids, by kids". I totally aggree with this
assessment and feel that there where too many *young* computer wizzards
involved in its development, and that the product totally lacks the elegance
that the SX had in its day. In their own words (read JYA), the interest in
the calculator had no start in the development of science and engineering
tools, which so many of us want and need; and to quote our friend (with all
due respect):
"My relationship began with the HP 48 Calculator in 1989 with my first HP
48SX. When I bought it, I was quite young (16 years old). I wanted an HP48
SX not for calculations or for my studies. I wanted it, because friend of
mine showed me a wonderful program : TETRIS by Etienne de Foras. In 1989, it
was so nice to think that it was possible to make games and programs like on
an Apple ][ ! " -- http://www.epita.fr/~avenar_j/hp/history.html
The 49 is a great toy for playing around with programming and tinkering with
math (but I persoanally reserve CAS for a PC based applications), but as an
engineer myself, I find it very cumbersome and nearly useless as a
day-to-day tool.
Now let's see HP muture their great tallent and get on with developing truly
great products again--but until this happens, I will keep praying that
Agelent (sp?) Technologies (or somebody else like them) is able to reignite
the fire if HP keeps letting it go out.
sincerely,
Gregory Warsewicz-Savage
Jean-Yves Avenard
That's remind me what we usually read a gossip review...
Use a text written in some, take it out of its context and try to make it
stick to what YOU want me to say.
Despite what you can think or say, the HP49 as more features into *any* area
than any other HP calculators previously made.
Every single feature has been enhanced, if it's not only in speed, it's also
in capabilities.
Sure, the HP49 may also contains more "gadget" feature such as ML
development, SysRPL or grey-scale.
But don't you think that maybe if YOU're using this calculator, it's because
you're using programs made by other people who bought this calculator
because of this feature ??
I still don't understand, why people like you, tends to post only to
criticize. As a matter of fact, looking in the history of posts, when was
the last time you answer a question posted here ? If there is one post that
could seem to be an answer, it very quickly switch to criticisms:
As an example: For somebody that ask the difference between the HP48SX and
the HP48GX. "IMO: The user interfaces (keyboard and menu layouts) have
gotten progressively sloppier with subsequent models since the SX
(especially the 49G)."
The HP48GX has the same functions directly available on the keyboard as the
HP48SX, they are just located differently. It meens that if you needed two
keystrokes on the HP48SX, you will need two keystrokes on the HP48GX. They
have just added some functions to the RightShifted keyboard.
About the HP39G: "Yea, I get the same impression... I took a look at the
new 39 and was disgusted by the color (I guess it just the trendy thing,
right in time for "back to school" sales),"
That is good, as you're not in the target of this calculator.
Not that I deny your opinion, it's your right and I respect it (to some
extend).
Everybody has the right to express their own opinions, but when over and
over you always hear the same things, you start to be bored. Too much
negative energy, and at the end, each time I have to go and ask John H.
Meyer on how to feel better and how to deal for the human's peace :)
Jean-Yves
PS: My post was a little bit unfair, I did find a real answer to your
question last August, about plotting segments.
"savage" <no.spam...@europa.com> wrote in message
news:8pk9ol$t2o$1...@quark.scn.rain.com...
Wayne Brown
>
> I still don't understand, why people like you, tends to post only to
> criticize.
I won't presume to speak for Gregory. However, this charge applies
equally well to me, so I'll answer it on my own behalf. I freely admit
that I seldom answer questions here, because frankly I don't have the
expertise with the HP-48 series that most people here have. My son is
the 48GX user in our family, and he knows much more about it than I do.
(BTW, I assume that he, as a high school student, is part of the target
market for the 49G; but he finds the appearance of the 49G, and all the
new HP calculators, as ridiculous as I do. I've seen him laughing at
pictures of them.) Most of the interest and experience I have is with
the HP-41CX and HP-16C. But this is the only newsgroup that deals with
HP calculators, so I hang out here.
The reason that I (and I suspect others as well) keep repeating my
criticisms of the 49G is because I hope that eventually HP will pay some
attention to them. If HP wants to build calculators like the 49G, fine;
but why can't they make something for the rest of us? If they would
come out with even ONE new model that was designed, from the ground up,
to appeal to adult scientists and engineers, I think a lot of us would
be less critical of their other offerings. So I keep talking about
what's wrong with the current models and what I'd like to see in a new
one. If others keep doing the same, maybe HP will listen eventually,
especially if our criticism is costing them customers. (I, personally,
advise everyone with whom I discuss calculators not to buy any HP model
later than the 48 series.)
That said, here are my own personal wishes. I'd like to see a true
successor to the HP-41CX. It could have exactly the same hardware as
the 48GX: processor, case, keyboard, display, IR port, etc. (Of course
the colors would be those of a 41: dark gray case, white, yellow, and
blue keyboard lettering.) The large display would allow the display of
all four lines of the stack, plus the LASTX register. Perhaps an
extended (user configurable?) selection of system flags could also be
displayed; there'd certainly be room. In ALPHA mode, the entire ALPHA
register could be seen at once. The operating system would be
completely source code compatible with the 41CX, including, of course,
synthetic instructions. (There is some great free software, available
at hpmuseum.org, that allows HP-41 programs to be compiled and
decompiled on a PC, so it wouldn't be hard to get old programs
converted. It was written quite recently -- people are still developing
for the 41 series!) A built-in cross assembler that would convert MCODE
to Saturn machine code would be very nice, as would an interface to
allow old HP-41 modules to be plugged in and copied to the new calc's
RAM. Another nice feature would be an HP-IL interface (perhaps a
plug-in for the serial port) to allow use of HP-IL peripherals such as
printers and disc drives. Of course the IR port would be
bi-directional, so that a 41 with an IR module could transfer program
source code directly to the new machine. Finally, the keyboard should
follow the 41 layout as closely as possible. We'd have an HP-41 with a
fast processor, a large display, and megabytes of RAM available -- my
idea of the ultimate dream calculator.
Others will have different ideas, but enough of us want similar things
that HP could surely produce something that most of us diehard fans of
the old HP calculators would find acceptable. Then we'd be quite happy
to leave the fans of HP's new MathBoy models in peace.
"I'd have to say, this thing *isn't* a calculator. It's a handheld
"learning device" for use in schools. If Nintendo would let HP get away
with calling it "MathBoy", I bet they would. . ." -- Les Bell, speaking
of the Xpander
--
Wayne Brown | "When your tail's in a crack, you improvise
fwb...@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give
http://betsyrandle.cjb.net | your pelt to the trapper."
http://urbmyth.cjb.net | -- John Myers Myers, "Silverlock"
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
> that the 49 was "made for kids, by kids". I totally aggree with this
Maybe then rather professor Parisse could be professor Xavier
and JYA, being young and handsome :), could be Cyclops
(providing Xpander is using an IR-laser-diode port :)
is Cyrille de Brebisson then Wolverine or Beast ?
Who is Iceman? Angel?
Are the "TI-Xpander" developers the Evil Mutants
and Magneto as their leader?
AND
where are the girls??????
VPN
(slightly off-topic)
> assessment and feel that there where too many *young* computer wizzards
> involved in its development, and that the product totally lacks the
elegance
> that the SX had in its day. In their own words (read JYA), the interest
in
> the calculator had no start in the development of science and engineering
> tools, which so many of us want and need; and to quote our friend (with
all
> due respect):
>
> "My relationship began with the HP 48 Calculator in 1989 with my first HP
> 48SX. When I bought it, I was quite young (16 years old). I wanted an HP48
> SX not for calculations or for my studies. I wanted it, because friend of
> mine showed me a wonderful program : TETRIS by Etienne de Foras. In 1989,
it
> was so nice to think that it was possible to make games and programs like
on
> an Apple ][ ! " -- http://www.epita.fr/~avenar_j/hp/history.html
AND
what was his first project? A game?
Is MetaKernel a GameBoy Kernel for the 48/49 series?
Dear NG reader, read the history yourself and make the conclusions
according...Ahhh, but there is nothing like mud-slinging ;-)
> The 49 is a great toy for playing around with programming and tinkering
with
> math (but I persoanally reserve CAS for a PC based applications), but as
an
> engineer myself, I find it very cumbersome and nearly useless as a
> day-to-day tool.
>
> Now let's see HP muture their great tallent and get on with developing
truly
> great products again--but until this happens, I will keep praying that
> Agelent (sp?) Technologies (or somebody else like them) is able to
reignite
> the fire if HP keeps letting it go out.
>
> sincerely,
>
> Gregory Warsewicz-Savage
unsincerely,
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
"flat-liner?"
mathia...@my-deja.com
Wayne Brown <fwb...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
<snip>
> I freely admit
> that I seldom answer questions here, because frankly I don't have the
> expertise with the HP-48 series that most people here have. My son is
> the 48GX user in our family, and he knows much more about it than I
do.
> (BTW, I assume that he, as a high school student, is part of the
target
> market for the 49G; but he finds the appearance of the 49G, and all
the
> new HP calculators, as ridiculous as I do. I've seen him laughing at
> pictures of them.)
Have you ever used a HP49 for a longer period of time? (real question,
not ironic or flaming). Looking at your posting, to me it doesn´t seems
so?
BTW the appearence of a calculator doesn´t say anything about its
quality or features. I did not like the appearance of the HP49 too much
(especially the blue metalized plastic :() but nevertheless I think,
its a good calc :)
<snip>
> That said, here are my own personal wishes. I'd like to see a true
> successor to the HP-41CX.
I think, a successor of the HP41 wouldn´t sell much. Time has gone
far about it. Two years ago there was something similar, the HP 42S II
or so. As it isn´t sold any longer, I think HP hasn´t made much profit
with it.
A new calculator, which should sell well on the market, has nowadays to
be targeted to the high school or college. This is due to the fact,
that people , which are interested in electronic "gadgets" (like me:)),
mostly are buying now an PDA. So a new calc has to have a CAS, a PC-
like Interface (for ease of use for people, which aren´t used to RPN
and are not willing to learn it) etc. The Xpander is a typical
prototype of it and it shows in my opinion the calc of the future.
Don´t get me wrong, I doesn´t say here, that the Xpander is the
ultimate and best calc in the world. It only shows, where the future is
going. I regret this a little bit, as RPN in my opinion is unbeatable,
if you are willing to learn it. Most people are not, I fear.
Mathias
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
shu...@acicomms.com
I started with HP with the 25C and then (after an inexcusable foray
into TI territory), to the 41 and stayed with HP ever since (28C, 28S,
48SX, 48GX with 1 MB and Metakernel Cards). When the 49 came out, I had
one of the first.
My immediate impression was similar to many of you in that the
appearance was not what I had expected and the screen and the keys were
a particular disappointment. I have since found that the keys, with
use, have become less difficult to press and I really love the layout
and readability of the keys (alpha especially). I solved the screen
readability and scratching issue by removing the cover and carefully
cutting out the transparent portion.
At this point, I would never go back to the 48. The functionality that
the new ROM gives (not to mention the fact that it is dynamic) far
exceeds the 48, even with the Metakernel, which was a huge plus to
usability.
I have programmed in RPL for years, but the ability to do so in SysRPL,
and directly on the machine, has made the 49 a dream come true. I just
finished (and posted to hpcalc.org) a group of SysRPL programs for CATV
engineering... all done directly on the 49.
While I await the Xpander with great interest, I still feel that the
calculator is not an endangered species. I have PDAs and have various
RPN calculators on them. The problem I find is that I like to press
actual keys, not jab at a screen with a stylus. These days, I typically
travel with the 49 and the tiny Psion Revo. Between the two, I have a
compact yet very powerful set of tools with which to work.
Bottom line, Jay, is that, in my opinion, the 49 is a wonderful
calculator, with many, many features that make it a worthy successor to
the 48. My advice is to go for it!
Cheers,
Simon
Barry
First, if you think the ACO guys are a bunch of kids designing
their first calculator then why are you not doing your best to
encourage them? That's how a nice person treat's kids. :)
When they made the SX they were doing something new. Something
that hadn't really been done before. They had a really fresh
start, with not much concern, if any, for compatibility with legacy
products. It was possible to do something very elegant in that
situation and they did that beautifully.
With the GX they added new features to an existing design. That
always leads to a little more clutter, a little less elegance, and,
hopefully, more utility. That's what we got. Nobody complained.
We were all pretty thrilled with it.
With the 49 they went much farther. It's a vastly upgraded GX.
It's also a new calculator at the same time. But they still
maintained a surprising degree of compatibility. And added more
clutter. How could they not?
As for the difference in maturity of the original SX designers and
the ACO group, I think you probably have a point. The SX designers
would probably never have attempted to do the 49G. They would know
better. That's what experience and maturity are about. Instead
they hired people with youthful imaginations, lots of know-how and
a willingness to try the impossible. The difference is reflected
in the calculators.
The design of the 49 is a mish-mosh. A little of this, some of
that, a lot of that other thing. Something for everyone. An
engineer's calculator. A student calculator. An RPN calculator.
A CAS calculator. A programmer's toy. Throw it all in and find
some way to make it all work together. But they did it. Somehow
they made it all hang together.
And if they had used the old 48GX case and called it a 48F (for
Full) or some such, we'd still be thrilled about it.
And they should have included Jazz. That was the real failure. :)
Barry
Dennis Straley
>The reason that I (and I suspect others as well) keep repeating my
>criticisms of the 49G is because I hope that eventually HP will pay some
>attention to them.
I think the point has been made quite clearly that there are a number of HP
users who dislike the color, or the keyboard. In fact, I am surprised at how
often it is discussed, and I hardly think that if HP has not yet "got the
message" that further repetition will help it to do so. As a matter of fact, if
you were married to such a person, you might accuse them of "nagging" after a
certain point. It hardly makes the argument any stronger at any rate, just more
and more annoying.
>If HP wants to build calculators like the 49G, fine;
>but why can't they make something for the rest of us?
That would be nice, but is it practical? Hopefully someone ran the numbers at
HP and decided there was not enough market to justify a production run at a
competitive price we could all afford. I think the 49 does well at being
adaptable enough that we can make it do what we want.
>I, personally,
>advise everyone with whom I discuss calculators not to buy any HP model
>later than the 48 series
Based on your son's reports of the HP48 I assume, as he is the expert :) But
seriously, I think this does your friends a disservice, since the 49G exceeeds
the 48G in ability in every respect except ease of cover removal!
Part of the problem inherent in releasing a new product is incorporating new
features (to keep up with competition) while trying to maintain some
compatibility with older models. Microsoft Windows 98 is still buggy in part
because of the complexity it required to maintain backwards compatibility with
Windows 3.1 and MS-DOS programs. Eventually that compatibility will no longer
exist - that will be an improvement in some ways, yet disadvantageous in
others.
No doubt there are many people who took a long time to learn the 41 and who now
find it easy to use, even second nature to them. I doubt they "need" a new
calculator, however much they might think it would be cool to have one. Those
who learned the 48 first however, find IT best to use, and the 41 limited by
its software and or hardware limitations. those that need a calculator now
would never consider purchasing the 41 even if it were in production, comparing
it with a 48G in features, unless you could market it for $30 or so.
Now there is a new generation of 49G users, and I am sure I am not alone in
saying it is the most impressive handheld calculating device on the market, bar
none. Software development for this product by the ACO has taken years, and was
well worth that effort. I think the 49 is extremely useful right now, even as
more features are being implemented, and still others are being suggested. This
is a good thing!
I am afraid that "die hard" HP calculator fans may find that they will just
have to pay a premium for old calculators on EBAY. Hopefully when I am 80, I
will have my new inexpensive HP-89G, learning its new features, marvelling at
its abilities, and muttering under my breath about the fluorescent orange and
paisley pink case designed to attract the new generation...
Respectfully,
Dennis
>"I'd have to say, this thing *isn't* a calculator. It's a handheld
>"learning device" for use in schools. If Nintendo would let HP get away
>with calling it "MathBoy", I bet they would. . ." -- Les Bell, speaking
>of the Xpander
PS What a great idea! A learning device for use in schools! What will they
think of next :) dms
Wayne Brown
>
> Have you ever used a HP49 for a longer period of time? (real question,
> not ironic or flaming). Looking at your posting, to me it doesn´t seems
> so?
> BTW the appearence of a calculator doesn´t say anything about its
> quality or features. I did not like the appearance of the HP49 too much
> (especially the blue metalized plastic :() but nevertheless I think,
> its a good calc :)
To be honest, I haven't. The appearance turns me off so much that I
even find using the emulator distasteful; there's no way I'm going to
buy one. Besides, I refuse to own a calculator with rubber keys.
> I think, a successor of the HP41 wouldn´t sell much. Time has gone
> far about it. Two years ago there was something similar, the HP 42S II
> or so. As it isn´t sold any longer, I think HP hasn´t made much profit
> with it.
> A new calculator, which should sell well on the market, has nowadays to
> be targeted to the high school or college. This is due to the fact,
> that people , which are interested in electronic "gadgets" (like me:)),
> mostly are buying now an PDA. So a new calc has to have a CAS, a PC-
> like Interface (for ease of use for people, which aren´t used to RPN
> and are not willing to learn it) etc. The Xpander is a typical
> prototype of it and it shows in my opinion the calc of the future.
> Don´t get me wrong, I doesn´t say here, that the Xpander is the
> ultimate and best calc in the world. It only shows, where the future is
> going. I regret this a little bit, as RPN in my opinion is unbeatable,
> if you are willing to learn it. Most people are not, I fear.
The problem is that I don't need most of the special features of the
49G. I don't need graphing, or a CAS, and I certainly don't need (or
want) an algebraic interface. My 41CX does everything I need except for
two problems: it needs more memory, and it's not going to last
forever. That's why I want a newer model. The 42S was a nice
calculator, but it's not expandable (something I INSIST upon having) and
so I haven't bought one. If there were some way I could connect a 42S
to my HP-41 printer, card reader, disc drive, bar code wand, plotter,
tape drive, RS232C interface, etc., plus all my ROM modules, then I'd
want one.
That's the problem with HP's new models. Each one offers new features,
but they always leave out good things that were supported by the older
models. I want something that does everything the 41 did, PLUS having
more memory. If HP made cars, by now they'd have a model with a jet
engine that gets 500 miles per gallon and a built-in swimming pool, but
no radio, heater, air conditioner, or headlights. "Oh, that's old
technology -- no one needs THAT stuff any more!"
I just wish HP's decisions were made by engineers and not by accountants
and marketing people.
Wayne Brown
>
> I think the point has been made quite clearly that there are a number of HP
> users who dislike the color, or the keyboard. In fact, I am surprised at how
> often it is discussed, and I hardly think that if HP has not yet "got the
> message" that further repetition will help it to do so. As a matter of fact, if
> you were married to such a person, you might accuse them of "nagging" after a
> certain point. It hardly makes the argument any stronger at any rate, just more
> and more annoying.
But there's an old saying that "the squeaky wheel gets the grease." As
a programmer, I've seen many times that I had to delay work on an
important project to satisfy some trivial request because a user raised
a big enough fuss for a senior manager to get involved. It doesn't
matter that people with far more important problems, and who went
through the proper channels, are having to wait their turn -- the person
who complains the loudest goes straight to the head of the line. It's
not fair, but it often works.
> That would be nice, but is it practical? Hopefully someone ran the numbers at
> HP and decided there was not enough market to justify a production run at a
> competitive price we could all afford. I think the 49 does well at being
> adaptable enough that we can make it do what we want.
Yes, unfortunately, "running the numbers" is the way HP makes decisions
these days. And while the 49 does have a lot of capabilities, it won't
do all the things I want.
> I am afraid that "die hard" HP calculator fans may find that they will just
> have to pay a premium for old calculators on EBAY. Hopefully when I am 80, I
> will have my new inexpensive HP-89G, learning its new features, marvelling at
> its abilities, and muttering under my breath about the fluorescent orange and
> paisley pink case designed to attract the new generation...
If I was certain my 41 would never wear out, or that a spare would
always be available on eBay (at a price I could afford), then I'd have
given up on HP by now. The problem is that nothing lasts forever.
Prices for vintage HP calculators keep climbing; when I gave my youngest
son my 41CV and bought myself a used 41CX from eBay a few months ago, I
paid nearly as much for it as a new 49G would have cost. In the last
two years I've spent close to $2000 on HP calculators and accessories,
and only my son's 48GX and accessories for it were new. Everything else
was bought secondhand. There are plenty of people like me around, and
you'd think HP would want to get some of that money for new products.
(Just this morning I saw that someone had spent $340 for an HP-11C.)
When I'm 80, I hope to still be enjoying my HP-41CX. That's only 35
years away, so maybe if I'm REAL careful with it...
JLA
drive. I enjoyed the waiting for the programs to load up :). There
were quite a few things one could do by the time it finished; like take
a shower and fix a sandwich. Commodore must have been nuts to stop
producing that thing!!! Doesn't evolving technology stinks?
By-the-way, those little blue wonders are selling like hot cakes. Some
people are actually putting their TI's away and buying them. We are
going to have a difficult time trying to convince HP to stop producing
this one.
:)
JLA
In article <39BED5B1...@bellsouth.net>,
Barry
news:39BED5B1...@bellsouth.net...
>
> But there's an old saying that "the squeaky wheel gets the
grease." As
> a programmer, I've seen many times that I had to delay work on an
> important project to satisfy some trivial request because a user
raised
> a big enough fuss for a senior manager to get involved. It
doesn't
> matter that people with far more important problems, and who went
> through the proper channels, are having to wait their turn -- the
person
> who complains the loudest goes straight to the head of the line.
It's
> not fair, but it often works.
You're right. It's not fair. Yeah, sometimes it works, if you
don't mind being the kind of person that screws life up for
everybody to get your way. That's the same reason some wive's
nag. It works.
> Yes, unfortunately, "running the numbers" is the way HP makes
decisions
> these days. And while the 49 does have a lot of capabilities, it
won't
> do all the things I want.
That's your fault. And mine. We bought a lot of HP stuff because
they were good and we made them big and successful and rich and the
business people had to take charge, and they did, and now we have a
huge multinational corporation which, not surpisingly, acts like a
huge multinational corporation.
We can avoid this in the future by only purchasing stuff we don't
like so the companies that produce stuff we want won't get too big.
But there might be some downside to that. I'll have to give it
some thought.
Barry
Barry
news:8pmn5p$46r$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> By-the-way, those little blue wonders are selling like hot cakes.
Some
> people are actually putting their TI's away and buying them. We
are
> going to have a difficult time trying to convince HP to stop
producing
> this one.
This is the first mention I've seen of the success of the 49. Can
you point me to some information about this? I had no idea.
Barry
savage
[snip]
>That's how a nice person treat's kids. :)
I apologize for any rudeness in tone.
> When they made the SX they were doing something new. Something
> that hadn't really been done before. They had a really fresh
> start, with not much concern, if any, for compatibility with legacy
> products.
My feelings are that they should have either come out with an enhanced 48
(i.e., CAS built in and more memory--I could do without some of the MK
stuff though); or they should have gone much further and abandoned the
compatibility with legacy products.
> With the GX they added new features to an existing design. That
> always leads to a little more clutter, a little less elegance, and,
> hopefully, more utility. That's what we got. Nobody complained.
> We were all pretty thrilled with it.
Yes, I went from the 41CX to the 48SX very easily, and then to the GX and I
was thrilled too. What turned me on with the GX was the higher contrast
screen, faster processor, and the ability to parallel process lists (along
with the added matrix manipulation stuff).
> With the 49 they went much farther. It's a vastly upgraded GX.
> It's also a new calculator at the same time. But they still
> maintained a surprising degree of compatibility. And added more
> clutter. How could they not?
They could have stayed with soft keys and info screens, and stayed away from
dialog and choose boxes (but still let us program out own). I don't get the
soft key phobia that the new stuff seems to have.
> Instead they hired people with youthful imaginations,
> lots of know-how and a willingness to try the impossible
Regardless of the talent they drew upon, how much of it (product
development) was actually driven by marketing types, with the engineers
pushed to the back seat in some ways? Relatively speaking, in the past, HP
was a maverick who paid little attention to the competition simply because
they were in a league above them and the charm, uniqueness and quality of
an authentic HP handheld is gone. Ironically, they are really being less
courageous since they seem to drifting away from RPN ( the 49 ships in
algebraic mode) and are now producing products that have a lot of
superficial likeness' to their competitor's.
> The design of the 49 is a mish-mosh. A little of this, some of
> that, a lot of that other thing.
Like Frankenstein's monster.
> A programmer's toy.
An obvious one and a sore spot for me. I am coming to this matter with a
different mentality than a game boy for programmers.
> some way to make it all work together. But they did it. Somehow
> they made it all hang together.
Very commendable, I admit. But, I think in relative terms, what was being
done a half a generation ago was far more progressive in many ways as to
what is being done now. As far as calculators are concerned, my preference
is to not so much to have a calculator with tons and tons of stuff crammed
into it, but rather to have the *capacity* to expand and configure to ones
liking. I like modularity: and analogously, it's like working with a medium
format camera where lenses, film magazines, view finders and motor drives
are all interchangeable to where the system can be configured to meets
particular needs. Why can't we be happy with special operating environments
and application libraries used in conjunction with dedicated keyboard
overlays (the 49 doesn't even accommodate overlays!) to suit our needs and
bents? Just think: a stats interface, a survey interface, a math interface,
a program developer's interface, a financial interface, an engineering
interface -- all driven from the same adaptable platform. They have been
doing this to some degree for a while now.
Little things like poor documentation, and having a shifted CST menu and
other wasted keyboard space (like having a HIST key when the up arrow puts
you on the stack), really bug me and drive my complaining (however, I like
the blue color and am not bothered by the ENTER key being moved--in fact I
have the problem of pressing "+" on the 48 instead). HP knew better about
the rubber keys and plastic screen problems, and that really ticks me
off--they have cheapened the their products from a manufacturing point. My
complaints are intended to say to HP "I feel that you have abandoned me (the
engineering market) and I am hurt after all my support and loyalty I have
given you" and "come on, you can do better--truly be what made your name
great and live up to your reputation".
Greg
Barry
company built and run by engineers is now being managed by
marketing people and accountants. That's how it works in business.
Success is defined as a small company hatching into a huge
multinational monster.
I worked for a mutual fund holding company for years. I began as
their 65th employee when their only computers were a few XT's and a
couple of compaq luggables. The MIS department consisted of one
other programmer (who soon moved into the phone system) my
supervisor and her boss (a CPA with a serious talent for computers
but lot's of CPA duties). We had to be creative and come up with
new ways to do the impossible every day. The company was growing
like crazy and we just couldn't keep up. But we had total freedom
to do anything we wanted to do. It was beautiful and we did magic.
I retired from that same company a couple of years ago. They now
have thousands of employees all over the world and hundreds of
billions of dollars under management. The MIS department alone has
hundreds of people.
Shortly before I left someone was fired for handling an emergency
that would have cost the company a few tens of thousands of
dollars. But he did it without asking, even though there was no
time to ask, and he had to go.
A few years before I handled an emergency (without asking) that was
going to prevent an 800 million dollar time critical transaction
from taking place. The next morning the company's chairman and
president were at my desk to thank me. A few years later they
fired someone for doing something similar. And they were right.
They have too much at stake now to allow people to go in their own
direction. The last I heard they were doing transactions daily of
over 20 billion a day. How can they let that get screwed up?
Think how much could be lost if his fix had shut things down for 10
minutes. It's called growth.
That's life.
"savage" <no.spam...@europa.com> wrote in message
news:8pn5n7$8bf$1...@quark.scn.rain.com...
John King
> The one answer to all of this is that HP got big. The maverick
> company built and run by engineers is now being managed by
> marketing people and accountants. That's how it works in business.
> Success is defined as a small company hatching into a huge
> multinational monster.
Growth is a big factor, but the market has changed because of the
pervasiveness of computing power.
HP has morphed towards a consumer company -- probably for growth reasons.
How many $700 super calculators are going to be sold nowadays? Today
computing power is 'everywhere' and it has collapsed the market for high end
calculators. So, growth or not, the market has changed because of
technology.
Jan Holecek
thing to this thread: to be a real successor of the HP48GX, the HP49 is
missing 2 slots for RAM (not needed for HP49) and other application
cadrs in my opinion.
--
| | _ | | _
|--| | | |--| | |
| | |_| | | |_|
savage
news:8pkdqv$gcp$1...@web1.cup.hp.com...
> Hi...
Hi to you too.
> That's remind me what we usually read a gossip review...
> Use a text written in some, take it out of its context and try to make it
> stick to what YOU want me to say.
Not really, the text cited is pretty self evident and stands on its own.
It's my assessment that we are coming to this forum from two opposing or
complimentary perspectives on a couple of levels: mainly you are a
developer, I am a consumer--you see the calculator more as an end, for me it
is more of a means.
> Despite what you can think or say, the HP49 as more features into *any*
area
> than any other HP calculators previously made.
More is not necessarily better--real sports cars don't have coffee cup
holders, cigarette lighters or automatic cruise controls in them. Sometimes
I take the position of a minimalist (i.e. - less is more) when it comes to
things--especially computer systems which seem to getting too cluttered, in
all respects, these days.
> Every single feature has been enhanced, if it's not only in speed, it's
also
> in capabilities.
Yes and no. For example I find the charter map in the 49 harder to use--Yes,
it may scroll faster than the 48, but it is very difficult to use from the
stand point that the cursor and the page both move and the eye has to work
harder to navigate it. From a machine perspective, it is faster, but from an
operational perspective, it's not. It also bugs me that rho and gamma are
not assigned alpha keys (I use them a lot in my work). This is a little
annoyance, but it still fuels my frustrations I have with the machine.
> Sure, the HP49 may also contains more "gadget" feature such as ML
> development, SysRPL or grey-scale.
I appreciate these enhancements and they are opening up a new world to me.
> But don't you think that maybe if YOU're using this calculator, it's
because
> you're using programs made by other people who bought this calculator
> because of this feature ??
First, so what? But truly, how big of a market are we talking about here? I
think this serves a relatively small market of developers who also have
other tools available--so it's not such an exclusive feature; or am I wrong?
How does this market niche compare to the number of science and engineering
students and professionals?
> I still don't understand, why people like you, tends to post only to
> criticize. As a matter of fact, looking in the history of posts, when was
> the last time you answer a question posted here ? If there is one post
that
> could seem to be an answer, it very quickly switch to criticisms:
I've had the 49 for over a year now (I believe that I was the first person
to buy one in Oregon--PSU bookstore, the morning they got them in--I was
very much looking forward to getting it). I have been really trying hard to
get used to it but have never managed to get over some of it's quirks. Maybe
a solid manual (in RPN, not algebraic) would help. Shall we discuss
documentation and HP's efforts in this regard? I wish I could have made it
to HHC2000 to hear what was to be announced. Where is HP officially on this
matter? I talked to Customer Support recently to get the AUG and the person
helping me there was even more critical towards the 49 than I was (I had to
be nice because I wanted the books). What I can tell, HP is suffering from a
brewing internal identity crisis and there is discord in the ranks.
> As an example: For somebody that ask the difference between the HP48SX and
> the HP48GX. "IMO: The user interfaces (keyboard and menu layouts) have
> gotten progressively sloppier with subsequent models since the SX
> (especially the 49G)."
I think you are overly defensive. Every artist has to be prepared to defend
his work before critics if he publicly displays it. Let me back up a
moment... before I was an engineer, I worked in industrial design and had
been involved in the development of a wide range of products ranging from
consumer electronics (cell phones, PC's, laptops, medical equipment) to full
scale automobile prototypes. I can judge with experience that there are a
number of significant ergonomic problems with the design and manufacture of
the 49 Shall I list some which readily come to mind:
1) You guys had to know about the problems with the plastic screen
(scratching, polarized light, dust and shadows)
2) Many (if not most experienced HP calc users) have problems with the
squishy-stiff rubber keys which handle like a car with oversized springs and
wasted shocks.
3) There are a number wasted (or non-optimal) key assignments (i.e., why
have a HIST key taking up valuable real-estate when the up arrow does the
same thing)?
4) Shifted keys that are very hard to read under a number of lighting
conditions
> The HP48GX has the same functions directly available on the keyboard as
the
> HP48SX, they are just located differently. It means that if you needed two
> keystrokes on the HP48SX, you will need two keystrokes on the HP48GX. They
> have just added some functions to the RightShifted keyboard.
>
> About the HP39G: "Yea, I get the same impression... I took a look at the
> new 39 and was disgusted by the color (I guess it just the trendy thing,
> right in time for "back to school" sales),"
> That is good, as you're not in the target of this calculator.
An overly trendy color just means that the calculator will look very dated
much sooner; but that's not my point. The point of my comment was that I
think that those who came up with the color scheme never gave any thought to
legibility and that it was generally hard on the eyes (hence impaired
usability). I actually do like the blue and find the over all styling nice
on the 49.
> Not that I deny your opinion, it's your right and I respect it (to some
> extend).
> Everybody has the right to express their own opinions, but when over and
> over you always hear the same things, you start to be bored. Too much
> negative energy, and at the end, each time I have to go and ask John H.
> Meyer on how to feel better and how to deal for the human's peace :)
If you are bored, by me and my likes, then just ignore it. If you are still
bothered by what some of us have to say, then it is your problem and you
have to deal with it and make an honest assessment of what is being said.
Your peace should never come from what people think of you.
As far as John is concerned, I like John a lot ( as well as I could know
through this forum); he is intelligent, witty and kind. But, I have my own
temperament and I stand to my beliefs.
Mr. Avenard, I apologize to you if you have been unrightfully offended and
promise you that I will alter my tone for the better. I appreciate your
response and hope that HP honestly considers our comments in future product
development. Enough said.
with regards,
Greg Savage
Máximo Castañeda
> ...
> operational perspective, it's not. It also bugs me that rho and gamma are
> not assigned alpha keys (I use them a lot in my work). This is a little
rho: [ALPHA][RS][F]
Why isn't it said in the chars map?
Anyway, you know you can assign them yourself.
Wolfgang Rautenberg
> ...
> (scratching, polarized light, dust and shadows)
> 2) Many (if not most experienced HP calc users) have problems with the
> squishy-stiff rubber keys which handle like a car with oversized springs and
> wasted shocks.
> 3) There are a number wasted (or non-optimal) key assignments (i.e., why
> have a HIST key taking up valuable real-estate when the up arrow does the
> same thing)?
Unfortunately, ACO eliminated the UparrowSTK option from
the HP48G's former edit-menu, really hardly to understand.
Therefore, they needed a key to enter the stack also in
edit mode. This is, as far as I can see, the only sitation
where HIST is indispensable. So you can quietly put this
assignment: << If in edit mode enter the stack, otherwise
run my favorite program >> onto the HIST key.
W.R.
Jean-Yves Avenard
"savage" <no.spam...@europa.com> wrote in message
news:8pnbjj$cp9$1...@quark.scn.rain.com...
> Jean-Yves Avenard <aven...@epita.fr> wrote in message
> news:8pkdqv$gcp$1...@web1.cup.hp.com...
>
> Not really, the text cited is pretty self evident and stands on its own.
> It's my assessment that we are coming to this forum from two opposing or
> complimentary perspectives on a couple of levels: mainly you are a
> developer, I am a consumer--you see the calculator more as an end, for me
it
> is more of a means.
Yeah, but I think you're completely wrong on this. You took my text out of
its context, on something that happened 11 years ago.
Before being a developer I'm a consumer. That's where I come from, and
that's why I like HP calculator so much. I want to be proud of the product I
deliver or the one I'm responsible of.
>
> > Despite what you can think or say, the HP49 as more features into *any*
> area
> > than any other HP calculators previously made.
>
> More is not necessarily better--real sports cars don't have coffee cup
> holders, cigarette lighters or automatic cruise controls in them.
Sometimes
> I take the position of a minimalist (i.e. - less is more) when it comes to
> things--especially computer systems which seem to getting too cluttered,
in
> all respects, these days.
>
I have a sport car (Audi TT), but I still enjoy the leather seat, the air
conditioning and the extraordinary hydrolic gear system.
<OT> I personally don't eat in my car, neither I smoke (and don't let
anybody do so), I hate automatic gear and I like to keep control. So no
matter if on my company car I have cruise control cigarette lighter etc.. I
don't use them. I have to stick with the automatic gear, but I play with
them like a manual one
</OT>
>
> Yes and no. For example I find the charter map in the 49 harder to
use--Yes,
> it may scroll faster than the 48, but it is very difficult to use from the
> stand point that the cursor and the page both move and the eye has to work
> harder to navigate it. From a machine perspective, it is faster, but from
an
Could you please give me an example ? Because the stack and the text editor
are exactly the same: Header, stack and menu.
The HP48 EQW and Memory manager was useless (in my point of view) as way too
slow.
> operational perspective, it's not. It also bugs me that rho and gamma are
> not assigned alpha keys (I use them a lot in my work). This is a little
A keyboard is designed so it will please the majority of persons... If you
don't like it, at least the HP4x series is the only calculator allowing you
to change the behavior of a system key.
So here :--->
"rho" 52.61 ASN (Alpha Right Shift and simultaneously R)
"Gamma" 13.61 ASN (Alpha Right Shift and simultaneously F)
> annoyance, but it still fuels my frustrations I have with the machine.
>
> First, so what? But truly, how big of a market are we talking about here?
I
> think this serves a relatively small market of developers who also have
> other tools available--so it's not such an exclusive feature; or am I
wrong?
Exactly, the problem is that the market for whom HP used to make calculator
is simply way too small now. But at least, HP is still making calculator for
you and us.
> How does this market niche compare to the number of science and
engineering
> students and professionals?
>
I can return the question.... You're always referring to the HP41, how big
do you think this market is compare to High School student and college
student ?
> Mr. Avenard, I apologize to you if you have been unrightfully offended and
> promise you that I will alter my tone for the better. I appreciate your
> response and hope that HP honestly considers our comments in future
product
> development. Enough said.
>
Not at all, I don't represent HP when I post here (that's why I'm always
using my private account). I just think that you don't realise that HP has
NEVER been that close to their calculator customer in the past. People here
are just denying it. Look at how many features requested here have been
developped (software AND hardware)
Jean-Yves
Jean-Yves Avenard
I think it's the other way around...
UpSTK was removed because of the HIST key...
Jean-Yves
"Wolfgang Rautenberg" <ra...@math.fu-berlin.de> wrote in message
news:39BF6462...@math.fu-berlin.de...
Wolfgang Rautenberg
Jean-Yves Avenard wrote:
> I think it's the other way around...
> UpSTK was removed because of the HIST key...
Jean-Yves,
you smartly bypass the proper question:
Is the HIST-key dispensable?
In my opion "YES", if you would'nt have removed
the former UpSTK from the edit menu but adapted
it to the need of the HP49 instead. This way you
would have gained a non-shifted key for CST, e.g.
- Wolfgang
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
X
> And if they had used the old 48GX case and called it a 48F (for
> Full) or some such, we'd still be thrilled about it.
>
> And they should have included Jazz. That was the real failure. :)
Mika Heiskanen seems to be too busy to port it to the 49G :-(
VPN
Wayne Brown
>
> Regardless of the talent they drew upon, how much of it (product
> development) was actually driven by marketing types, with the engineers
> pushed to the back seat in some ways? Relatively speaking, in the past, HP
> was a maverick who paid little attention to the competition simply because
> they were in a league above them and the charm, uniqueness and quality of
> an authentic HP handheld is gone. Ironically, they are really being less
> courageous since they seem to drifting away from RPN ( the 49 ships in
> algebraic mode) and are now producing products that have a lot of
> superficial likeness' to their competitor's.
This is the crux of the issue for me. HP was special because it was
different and clearly superior. Owning an HP used to be like owning a
Porsche when everyone else was driving AMC Pacers and VW Rabbits. The
HP
advertising played up to this image, with comments like these: "Ask the
owner of an HP calculator how he likes it and you're apt to detect in
his answer a quiet sense of pride. For he has experienced the sheer
pleasure of owning an instrument that has been designed--in every
detail--to be the finest of its kind in the world."
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
:-D
VPN
PS: I love this machine and the new ASN
"Máximo Castañeda Riloba" <mad...@alumnos.uva.es> wrote in message
news:39BF5148...@alumnos.uva.es...
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
X
> particular needs. Why can't we be happy with special operating
environments
> and application libraries used in conjunction with dedicated keyboard
> overlays (the 49 doesn't even accommodate overlays!) to suit our needs and
> bents? Just think: a stats interface, a survey interface, a math
interface,
> a program developer's interface, a financial interface, an engineering
> interface -- all driven from the same adaptable platform. They have been
> doing this to some degree for a while now.
Keyboard overlays?!! I almost forgot that one !
Yes, I really liked that in my HP 41 models and used it a lot
Also the HP 71B got it's share of Xtra keyboard overlays.
During the usage of the HP 48-series I, personally, seemed
to forget about the keyboard overlays, but if HP ever makes
a new *REAL* calculator (may it bee a 50G/GX or more...)
I hope that they include that option as well.
VPN
David Haguenauer
too
>slow.
I agree about the EQW, which could be useful is very few situations (big
expressions can't be handled quickly enough). But the Memory program was,
in my opinion, a very good way for one (== new user) to get used to the
HP48's directory structure. After a while, of course, the VAR menu becomes
the preferred solution.
>Exactly, the problem is that the market for whom HP used to make
calculator
>is simply way too small now.
Hum... okay. Bad news.
>I just think that you don't realise that HP has
>NEVER been that close to their calculator customer in the past.
I can't prove you wrong. Communication between the ACO and this NG indeed
works.
David Haguenauer
http://zap.to/hsimpson
Barry
> Hello
>
> I think it's the other way around...
> UpSTK was removed because of the HIST key...
I must be missing something. The HIST key and the up arrow seem to
do the same thing. They also present the same menu items. The
only difference I can see is that with the up arrow you can go up
another level by pressing it again and if you use HIST, then to go
up another level you have to use the up arrow.
This is the same as on the 48 except now there are 2 ways to do it.
Barry
Barry
"Veli-Pekka Nousiainen"
<vp.nou...@lapinlahden-teknologiakeskus.fi> wrote in message
news:dI1w5.146$eA....@read2.inet.fi...
> "Barry" <bar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:39be5f72$0$23900$3936...@news.twtelecom.net...
> X
> > Full) or some such, we'd still be thrilled about it.
> >
> > And they should have included Jazz. That was the real failure.
:)
> Mika Heiskanen seems to be too busy to port it to the 49G :-(
Yeah, I know. That's life. But I still intend to gripe about it.
:)
Actually Masd is pretty good. A little clumsy here and there but
very powerful and some really nice features. I'd still miss Jazz
in any case, but I'd gripe a lot less if they'd included at least
some kind of minimal debugger. I could be comfortable with Masd
then.
I began programming in the days when debugging was done with core
dumps (or just studying the code if the operator didn't have time
to print one for you) so I can't say that I just HAVE to have a
debugger. I had been a mainframe programmer for about 10 years
before I saw my first interactive debugger on an early Apple II.
But I've gotten spoiled and it's just not as much fun programming
without a debugger.
Barry
Barry
> But they DO the same thing..
> But only in one situation.
>
> The UpArrow behavior was kept just for backward compatibility
with the HP48.
>
> When you're editing a text, you want the UpArrow key to move to
the previous
> line, not to start the history mode isn't it ??
>
> I don't understand these comments I keep reading like: What's the
need for
> the HIST key, the Up Arrow does the same...
> Does that mean you never, ever use the command line, or the
matrix writer or
> the equation writer ??
> Tell me, because that would be a very good way to save space in
the ROM ...
I've never used the matrix writer or the equation writer. I know
very little about math. I did learn to use matrices to do
graphical transformations, but I can't really say that I understand
them. I just know how to use them to do certain things. I've had
a little algebra and a little trig years ago, so I've tried to
figure out the equation writer and how to plot graphs, etc, but I
haven't gotten very far. I really don't understand it. I also
haven't done much with the command line except type commands.
I do use the editor a lot but I don't do anything fancy with it.
I'd be real happy to see you drop the equation writer and the
matrix writer and put a debugger in their place. But I really
don't expect you to do that. :)
As for my comment on the history command and the up arrow, I was
asking what the discussion was about. I rarely use either one and
I thought there was something being discussed that I missed.
Barry
Jean-Yves Avenard
But only in one situation.
The UpArrow behavior was kept just for backward compatibility with the HP48.
When you're editing a text, you want the UpArrow key to move to the previous
line, not to start the history mode isn't it ??
I don't understand these comments I keep reading like: What's the need for
the HIST key, the Up Arrow does the same...
Does that mean you never, ever use the command line, or the matrix writer or
the equation writer ??
Tell me, because that would be a very good way to save space in the ROM ...
Jean-Yves
"Barry" <bar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:39c107c5$0$23897$3936...@news.twtelecom.net...
> "Jean-Yves Avenard" <aven...@epita.fr> wrote in message
> news:8pp8tu$sq7$1...@web1.cup.hp.com...
> > Hello
> >
> > I think it's the other way around...
> > UpSTK was removed because of the HIST key...
>
Dennis Straley
>the equation writer ??
>Tell me, because that would be a very good way to save space in the ROM ...
Clearly there are a lot of short cuts for editing on the HP49G that HP48G users
have not yet learned. HIST can be used from both of these applications (MTRW
and EQW) when the up arrow key has a different application in these functions.
There are 'copy' and 'paste' functions as well. And new Help with CAS functions
in 1-19.3! I think I smell a book, with some editing examples included...
Dennis
Peter Khor
>
>>Exactly, the problem is that the market for whom HP used to make
>calculator
>>is simply way too small now.
>
Just as a point of comparison, I wonder what's the WinCE market size for HP?
Especially in light of the startup/development-from-scratch cost that HP has
sunk into the WinCE market. What's the ROI per CE unit sold, compared to
calculators?
>>I just think that you don't realise that HP has
>>NEVER been that close to their calculator customer in the past.
>
>I can't prove you wrong. Communication between the ACO and this NG indeed
>works.
When I got my first HP Jornada 400 series PPC (420), there was a list of
gripes that I had with it (it's always easy to complain, isn't it?! ;-) ).
I sent 1 email and 1 letter to HP. The choice of Barney-purple casing
wasn't on my list, although I did list it as a possible aversion factors to
other "professional" buyers. I received a lengthy user-survey form in my
email from the Jornada development team, and I filled it out. Still, HP
LISTENED and:
* The last 400 series Jornada was released with a traditional BLACK/GRAPHITE
case, making it looking imo a little more professional.
* Just this week, I got a letter from HP stating that they had 'over-stated'
some of their claims with respect to the 400 series Jornada, and offered a
FULL REFUND of the product price INCLUDING TAX - and that's no matter that
my Jornada is more than a year old now. Not that it matters to me, since I
sold my HP420 about 3 months after I bought it in favor of another unit.
* If you visit the current HP/Win-CE site, the RECALL has been extended to
the current 500 series Jornada PPC. Was there some kind of class-action
suit in the making?!
At any rate, I can only imagine THE LOSS HP is getting into if Jornada
owners decide to take advantage of HP's recall offer en-mass (I guess they
aren't expecting more than a 20% return rate).
Either way it looks to me that HP is listening, and I have to say kudos to
them for offering to take back the PPC units.
So ... the HP-49G has been targeted towards students; HP has received inputs
with regards to colour choice, rubber keys, and expansion capabilities.
It would be nice to see a 58GX or the likes finally released.
My 2 cents,
Peter Khor
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
"Peter Khor" <peter...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:Ghkw5.28610$M37.6...@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
X
> Either way it looks to me that HP is listening, and I have to say kudos to
> them for offering to take back the PPC units.
>
> So ... the HP-49G has been targeted towards students; HP has received
inputs
> with regards to colour choice, rubber keys, and expansion capabilities.
> It would be nice to see a 58GX or the likes finally released.
OR a HP 50G & HP 50GX
my 2 ?uro cents, VPN
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
X
> I don't understand these comments I keep reading like: What's the need for
> the HIST key, the Up Arrow does the same...
> Does that mean you never, ever use the command line, or the matrix writer
or
> the equation writer ??
> Tell me, because that would be a very good way to save space in the ROM
...
>
> Jean-Yves
Don't ! I use the [HIST] (I have just Dyno-taped "STaK" over it :)
Give people a "Tips&Tricks" PDF where these question and FAQ
are answered with Xamples. Not evrybody immediately finds every
fine detail in a very featurefull calculator like the 49G.
MORE features!! DIGITS to 99999 in reals & complex
(ask Mika to do the port: he has not a thing to do :)
VPN
PS: When do you release my HP 50G ;-) ?
Wolfgang Rautenberg
Dennis Straley wrote:
> Clearly there are a lot of short cuts for
> editing on the HP49G that HP48G users have not
> yet learned.
Hello,
do you mean former HP-48-users which are now in the
posession of a HP49 would not have tried to find all
the former facilities and look if some of them had
perhaps been improved? Probably each of them did.
Maybe they came to different conclusions as you.
The truth is that the HIST key could have been
saved if the option UpSTK from the HP48-edit menu
would not have been removed but put into the
application menu of each special environement like
editing, EQW, MTRW etc. At the same place, of course.
However, I quote Jean-Yves from another mail
"When the keyboard was designed, based on teachers
and user request, wo took in consideration all
request. One of the request was the ability to
re-use previous result in a very easy way from
every environement. Therefore the HIST key."
This is a convincing argument and no question about
the HIST key would have ever been raised, if the
author of the HP49-manual would have included the
above in his keyboard explanation.
- Wolfgang
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
"The case is closed"
;-)
VPN
PS: You can also glue something on the key
but even TakeOver's and shift-holds don't
bite in Environments, so - ACO - please
can we have several UserKeys! One foe each
environment???
"Wolfgang Rautenberg" <ra...@math.fu-berlin.de> wrote in message
news:39C1E331...@math.fu-berlin.de...
>
>
> Dennis Straley wrote:
> > Clearly there are a lot of short cuts for
> > editing on the HP49G that HP48G users have not
> > yet learned.
>
David Haguenauer
for
>the HIST key, the Up Arrow does the same...
Although [HIST] doesn't do the same thing as [UpArrow], I never use it. In
fact, I changed its assignment so that it enters single quotes. Now *this*
is useful.
By the way, how big is the MINEISBETTER tetris game? It is indeed better
in my opinion...
David Haguenauer
http://zap.to/hsimpson
John H Meyers
> The HIST key and the up arrow seem to do the same thing.
At a certain time (system outer loop, where you are
staring at the stack display) they do.
But HIST continues to work while you are in MatrixWriter
or EquationWriter, where cursor-up no longer does that function.
In the HP48 Equation/Matrix Writers there is a soft menu key ^STK
while editing, but you have to press EDIT and then NXT (sometimes
twice) to see it; similarly within forms. These are still present
in the HP49, but they are harder to access, and even more
significantly, they are available only in RPN mode
(in Alg. mode the stack[s] are handled very differently;
in effect there is no "stack" at all except at the SOL level).
So upon deeper investigation, the HIST key seems to be not
only handier in many places, but even essential for the
Alg. mode user (the user for whom the HP49 was designed, I guess).
As we know, however, there are two kinds of users -- those who
read and post on comp.sys.hp48, and those who use Alg. mode :)
As for me, my user key assignment for HIST is my own version
of CMD (which saves the last 100 entries, not just the last four);
I find this immensely useful, considering how often I repeat myself :)
Jean-Yves would certainly have said all this, but he hasn't the
time, being hard at work, and having to write in a second tongue;
I thought I read it between the lines, though ;)
-----------------------------------------------------------
With best wishes from: John H Meyers <jhme...@mum.edu>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
savage
I can see the point now for the HIST key for the algebraic user, but I am
speaking from perspective (and manner of use). I actually never use the EQW
to do equations--instead I "build" EQ's on the stack using RPN. I find this
much faster, even with the improved EQW. I will, however, use the EQW to
quickly check the EQ to see if it's correct. The matrix writer is
invaluable to me, but I never needed to invoke any command resembling HIST
there. BTW, I am a big user of SmartROM for the 48 which I use heavily for
symbolic matrixes.
The question I have now is, what's the deal with the "X" key? Please,
somebody tell me.
Also, with the 39/40's out, why can't the future development of the 49, and
it's successors (I am guessing), get back on track with RPN; or is HP
forever drifting away from it?
with regards,
Greg S.
Barry
in the editor to combine things,etc. That'll be handy.
Barry
"Dennis Straley" <dst1...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000915013237...@ng-df1.aol.com...
mathia...@my-deja.com
> As for me, my user key assignment for HIST is my own version
> of CMD (which saves the last 100 entries, not just the last four);
> I find this immensely useful, considering how often I repeat myself :)
Hi John,
is it possible to get this program? I like the buildin CMD much, but
its to short....
Thanks in advance,
Mathias
David Fabiani
"savage" <no.spam...@europa.com> wrote:
>
> The question I have now is, what's the deal with the "X" key? Please,
> somebody tell me.
>
I guess that's make easier entry of algebraic objects, both in EQW and
stack/command line.
Most people use 'X' name as main unknown variable, and having that
bound to a primary key lets you use menu key (to enter mathematical
functions) without switching forth and back Alpha mode.
Regards,
David Fabiani
David Haguenauer
HP?
I don't know, but I'm not part of it. If the Xpander has CE, I won't buy
it.
>>>I just think that you don't realise that HP has
>>>NEVER been that close to their calculator customer in the past.
>>I can't prove you wrong. Communication between the ACO and this NG
indeed
>>works.
>* Just this week, I got a letter from HP stating that they had
'over-stated'
>some of their claims with respect to the 400 series Jornada, and offered
a
>FULL REFUND
Is it that 65536-color story (I read it could only display 4096 for some
reason)? In any case, it's a really honest reaction from HP.
David Haguenauer
http://zap.to/hsimpson
Peter Khor
>>Just as a point of comparison, I wonder what's the WinCE market size for
>
Again, going OT - I was a long-time Newton user (OMP thru MP2100), and with
its demise I've found the CE platform to be more or less giving me 75% of
Newt's feature, plus others. Coolest reason is being able to run Emu48CE
>
>>>>I just think that you don't realise that HP has
>>>>NEVER been that close to their calculator customer in the past.
>>>I can't prove you wrong. Communication between the ACO and this NG
>
>
>>* Just this week, I got a letter from HP stating that they had
>'over-stated'
>>FULL REFUND
>
>Is it that 65536-color story (I read it could only display 4096 for some
>reason)? In any case, it's a really honest reaction from HP.
Yup, that's the one. Really interesting to me, that just because of that
one point (4096 colours), you get all your money back! Nice of HP. fyi the
540 'recall' info can be read at:
http://www.hp.com/jornada/products/540/index.html#erratum
Peter Khor
Craig Luna
about 3weeks total. The 430 series was included in the recall after a
good deal of complaining.
-CAL
"Peter Khor" <peter...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:t9Zw5.17295$6f1.8...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> David Haguenauer wrote in message
<8q0v6c$mql$4...@front6m.grolier.fr>...
> >
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
I hope this would be changed to VX
e.g.. to reflect the current "X" variable
VPN
"David Fabiani" <david_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8pvs3m$l7i$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
news:8pu8lg$v92$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
X
> As for me, my user key assignment for HIST is my own version
> of CMD (which saves the last 100 entries, not just the last four);
> I find this immensely useful, considering how often I repeat myself :)
The old HP-71B had a LEX-file to change the number of entries
in the CMD-stack up to 16, in which case the stack would wrap
from top back to the bottom again (but not the other way around)
a keyword to control that in the 49G would surely be nice
Something like ->CONTRAST CONTRAST-> or ->HEADER
HEADER-> say ->CMDSTK CMDSTK->
ACO?
VPN
David Fabiani
"Veli-Pekka Nousiainen" <DROP_vp.nousiainen@lapinlahden-
teknologiakeskus.fi> wrote:
So do I, I'd like that when plotting parametric
'(SIN(t), COS(t))'
X key would enter 't' variable
Regards,
David Fabiani
Bruce Horrocks
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen wrote:
[snip]
> Keyboard overlays?!! I almost forgot that one !
> Yes, I really liked that in my HP 41 models and used it a lot
> Also the HP 71B got it's share of Xtra keyboard overlays.
> During the usage of the HP 48-series I, personally, seemed
> to forget about the keyboard overlays, but if HP ever makes
> a new *REAL* calculator (may it bee a 50G/GX or more...)
> I hope that they include that option as well.
The following is a letter I wrote to Datafile (http://www.hpcc.org)
suggesting that HP adopt a new technology that would make overlays
redundant.
---begin---
Dear Editor,
In this letter I am going to plead the case for a radical new design for
future HP calculators. One which addresses almost every complaint
leveled at HP’s calculators over the last few years and allows HP to cut
their production costs considerably. Sounds too good to be true? Read
on.
Imagine a calculator that is the size and weight of the HP20S, with the
same battery life (i.e. fits in your shirt pocket and runs for months on
three coin cells) but has a display at least the size of the 48 series,
perhaps bigger. Imagine this calculator having multiple personalities.
It starts out as a simple scientific, but is capable of becoming an
advanced scientific, or a business calculator, or a computer science
calculator, or any other specialist calculator simply by selecting a
menu option. And, as if this were not choice enough for you, imagine
being able to uniquely tailor the calculator to display just the
functions that you use.
Put yourself in the shoes of an HP marketing executive and imagine being
able to sell a calculator into half-a-dozen, or more, different markets
using an identical underlying product, thereby gaining the maximum
economies of scale. All in all a pretty compelling product. So what is
the magic ingredient that enables such enormous flexibility? Answer:
electronic ink.
Electronic ink is a new technology from a company called E-Ink
Corporation, which was founded by researchers from the Massachusetts
Institute of Technology Media Lab. The following description is taken
from E-Ink’s web-site (http://www.electronic-ink.com):
> Electronic ink is a new material that will have far-reaching impact on
> how society receives its information. The ink itself is a liquid that
> can be printed onto nearly any surface. Within the liquid are millions
> of tiny microcapsules, each one containing white particles suspended in
> a dark dye. When an electric field is applied, the white particles move
> to one end of the microcapsule where they become visible. This makes the
> surface appear white at that spot. An opposite electric field pulls the
> particles to the other end of the microcapsules where they are hidden by
> the dye. This makes the surface appear dark at that spot.
>
> To form an Immedia™ electronic display, the ink is printed onto a sheet
> of plastic film that is laminated to a layer of circuitry. The circuitry
> forms a pattern of pixels that can then be controlled by a standard
> display driver. Electronic ink moves information display to a new
> dynamic level, with dramatic benefits over traditional media:
>
> o Superior Look— Because it's made from the same basic materials as
> regular ink and paper, electronic ink retains the superior viewing
> characteristics of paper, including high contrast, wide viewing angle,
> and bright paper-white background.
>
> o Low Power— Electronic ink is a real power miser. It displays an
> image even when the power is turned off and it's even legible in low
> light reducing the need for a backlight. This can significantly extend
> battery life for portable devices.
Thus the result of this technology is a plastic film, about a millimetre
thick, that is flexible and can be shaped around more-or-less any
object. The display resolution is governed by the underlying layer of
circuitry and can therefore be at least as good as the high-resolution
LCD displays used in notebook computers.
The way to use this technology is for HP to produce a calculator where
the entire surface of the calculator, not just the display, is made of
this material. The result is that everything that was previously printed
is now displayable and under the control of the calculator. Want to do
some business calculations? Simply choose the business option and all of
the key-legends (and the key caps as well) change to display business
instead of scientific functions. Forget about the clutter caused by
multi-coloured left- and right-shifted key legends - simply press the
shift key and the legends all change to display the shifted functions.
All the space around the LCD that is currently unusable suddenly becomes
available for the display. (Remember that this film is only 1mm thick so
it won’t impinge on the battery compartment.) This means that a small
and pocketable 20S sized device can now have the same sized screen as a
48. Moreover - literally - if you need still more screen space then
simply turn the calculator over. Forgotten how to use a command? Simply
press the help key and a page of help text from the manual can be shown
on the back with sufficient space for a proper description and examples.
Need to see a larger version of a graph? Again, the back is the ideal
place.
I’m sure that you will all find the application of this technology to
calculators as obvious as I do. However, HP also manufacture a range of
other devices – personal digital assistants, notebook and desktop
computers that could also benefit from this display technology. There is
a wonderful opportunity to share the costs of developing electronic ink
based devices over several product ranges and therefore obtain large
economies of scale.
Electronic ink is a real product and is here to stay. It won’t be long
before you see posters in shopping centres that not only change from one
advert to another in front of your eyes but also display animated
adverts and change according to the time of day – children’s adverts
when the schools finish, restaurant adverts in the evenings and at
lunchtimes. While the prospect of the latter may be somewhat less than
appealing, I hope that HP can compensate us by at least providing the
ultimate in customisable calculators.
Bruce Horrocks
#609
---end---
Regards,
--
Bruce Horrocks
Hampshire
England
b...@granby.demon.co.uk
Jean-Yves Avenard
I don't think that any manufacturer will ever justify the choice they've
made internally.
Just image the size of a manual if it included a section:
Okay: one the first key we put this function. We could also have put this,
but there was then a conflict on the third key, which by the way could have
been this, but we believed that etc...
You will need to tell the full story of every product development, and
that's not the point of a manual.
Every choice made on the HP49 have been thought for a long time, and no
decision were taken like without serious thought despite what some of you
may think.
Ok, ok, now that's different, the product is out, and software people like
to add crazy things :)
Jean-Yves
"Wolfgang Rautenberg" <ra...@math.fu-berlin.de> wrote in message
news:39C1E331...@math.fu-berlin.de...
Jean-Yves Avenard
The Operating System has nothing to with the functionalities of a unit.
Apple Application running under Windows are great and look really good.
A Microsoft application running under MacOS works pretty much in the same
way as one running under Windows.
The application is I think more important than the OS.
Especially for an educational product.
Jean-Yves
"David Haguenauer" <hsam...@lemel.fr> wrote in message
news:8q0v6c$mql$4...@front6m.grolier.fr...
> >Just as a point of comparison, I wonder what's the WinCE market size for
> HP?
>
> I don't know, but I'm not part of it. If the Xpander has CE, I won't buy
> it.
>
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
AH-HAAA !!!
So it's a WinCE machine anyway!
<Danger off>
I will still buy one
and maybe program a few Finnish e-lessons
for the teachers and students alike.
VPN
PS: How about a HP 50G & 50GX ?
Remember the FIR 4MB link :-)
"Jean-Yves Avenard" <aven...@epita.fr> wrote in message
news:8q960b$3nu$1...@web1.cup.hp.com...
Máximo Castañeda
>
> Just image the size of a manual if it included a section:
> Okay: one the first key we put this function. We could also have put this,
> but there was then a conflict on the third key, which by the way could have
> been this, but we believed that etc...
>
> You will need to tell the full story of every product development, and
> that's not the point of a manual.
>
Maybe we need a novel with the HP49G as the main character.
Wolfgang Rautenberg
Jean-Yves Avenard wrote:
> I don't think that any manufacturer will ever justify the choice they've
> made internally.
OK. But you seem to forget that most people posting
on this site had a HP48 before they bought a HP49.
Thus, to "close the case" about the HIST key once and
forever, I propose to write a small appendix to one of
the 49-manuals "What is new compared to the HP48?",
although I were the first one to buy a thick novel
"Developing the HP49", even if it where expensive.
- Wolfgang
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
and I'll buy it (standard font size, please :)
Maybe a PDF/PS/Word CD is included
will source code and compiled results and...
VPN
"Wolfgang Rautenberg" <ra...@math.fu-berlin.de> wrote in message
news:39C89102...@math.fu-berlin.de...
>
>
> Jean-Yves Avenard wrote:
> > I don't think that any manufacturer will ever justify the choice they've
> > made internally.
>
David Haguenauer
Then why choose an OS with a name that has a bad reputation? I understand
that it reduces (dramatically) the amount of code you will have to write,
and that not everyone thinks of "Windows" as a defective GUI, but was
there no alternative? Is it impossible to write a proprietary OS for this
new product?
>Apple Application running under Windows are great and look really good.
HP apps running on HP OS running on HP calculators look even better. Every
person I know experiences at least one crash a day under win 95. Win NT
and Linux are much more stable (the issue with Linux, on a PC, being its
relative lack of apps, but this is not an issue for the Xpander as soon as
the product is new and isn't expected to have any preexistent software).
>The application is I think more important than the OS.
I think this isn't a good reason for choosing the OS at random.
>Especially for an educational product.
Does it mean you don't expect users to ever program? Because the OS does
matter for people who program!
David Haguenauer
http://zap.to/hsimpson
Barry
> Especially for an educational product.
When you have two competing calculators with similar applications,
one a little more powerful than the other, and one has an OS that
does it's job nicely and is simple to learn and use and the other
has an OS that's wonderfully flexible and customizable and powerful
but harder to learn to use, the OS can be the major difference in
the 2 calculators.
Barry
Barry
> Hello
>
> I don't think that any manufacturer will ever justify the choice
they've
> made internally.
>
> Just image the size of a manual if it included a section:
> Okay: one the first key we put this function. We could also have
put this,
> but there was then a conflict on the third key, which by the way
could have
> been this, but we believed that etc...
>
> You will need to tell the full story of every product
development, and
> that's not the point of a manual.
I have to agree that no company would ever do that. On the other
had, Bill Wickes did something like that, not about thinks like key
placement but about the way the 48 was designed to meet what user
needs. I don't know if he did that on his own or for HP.
Have any of you guys considered something like that for the 49 when
there's time? I don't know that it would be a huge best seller,
but a lot of people might be interested.
Also is there likely to be something like Donnelly's book on
programming the 48, written for the 49?
Speaking of books, has anyone heard what Grapevine or others will
be doing for the 49? I called Grapevine some time ago and asked
about a 49 book and I was told that a book for the 49 was being
considered but there were no details available. I called again a
few months later and the person I talked to wouldn't discuss it.
Anybody know anything?
Barry
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
BUT
with the developments of the CAS (thanX Professor)
and the Xtensions to the ASN & other utilities
(the way to go JYA & Others @ ACO)
I'm going to sell my "other" OS based calculator
Could this be like a war between Linux & Windows ?
Or PC & Mac (Amiga?) or (pick your religious war)
VPN
"Barry" <bar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:39c92014$0$23896$3936...@news.twtelecom.net...
> "Jean-Yves Avenard" <aven...@epita.fr> wrote in message
> news:8q960b$3nu$1...@web1.cup.hp.com...
> >
> > The application is I think more important than the OS.
> > Especially for an educational product.
>
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
X
> I have to agree that no company would ever do that. On the other
> had, Bill Wickes did something like that, not about thinks like key
> placement but about the way the 48 was designed to meet what user
IF these books ever become reality
I'm gonna buy them immediately
Insights of HP 49G
by Jean-Yves Avenard & Cyrille de Brebisson & Bernard Parisse
Volume I the new operating system
Volume II Programming: UserRPL, SysRPL, Assembler
Volume III CAS in detail with examples
VPN
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
I have used a WinCE machine a couple of years now
and I have not Xperienced the crashes that my Win NT suffers
On the other leg - egh hand
Symbian OS would have been a better choice. (IMO)
VPN
"David Haguenauer" <hsam...@lemel.fr> wrote in message
news:8qas4i$g01$1...@front3.grolier.fr...
> >The Operating System has nothing to with the functionalities of a unit.
>
> Then why choose an OS with a name that has a bad reputation? I understand
> that it reduces (dramatically) the amount of code you will have to write,
> and that not everyone thinks of "Windows" as a defective GUI, but was
> there no alternative? Is it impossible to write a proprietary OS for this
> new product?
>
> >Apple Application running under Windows are great and look really good.
>
>
> HP apps running on HP OS running on HP calculators look even better. Every
> person I know experiences at least one crash a day under win 95. Win NT
> and Linux are much more stable (the issue with Linux, on a PC, being its
> relative lack of apps, but this is not an issue for the Xpander as soon as
> the product is new and isn't expected to have any preexistent software).
>
> >The application is I think more important than the OS.
>
> I think this isn't a good reason for choosing the OS at random.
>
> >Especially for an educational product.
>
>
David Haguenauer
I'm here, Veli-Pekka!
>I have used a WinCE machine a couple of years now
>and I have not Xperienced the crashes that my Win NT suffers
Okay. Also, I thought about something: Is WinCE mainly an OS (ie, a
program that handles the hardware and a library of useful functions) or
mainly a graphical user interface (like PC Windows), i.e. with Start,
windowed interface?
>On the other leg - egh hand
>Symbian OS would have been a better choice. (IMO)
I didn't study mobile OSes very closely, but I can't imagine you being
wrong. What well-known products already use Symbian OS?
David Haguenauer
http://zap.to/hsimpson
PS: and yes, it's a kind of religious war...
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
None !
But Motorola, Nokia, Ericsson and Psion plus (can't recall now)
are buildning the new phones on that platform.
Nokia is going to release a new Communicator based on Symbian.
The "old" Symbian is simply the Psion-5 OS,
but Symbian is a re-design tailored to phone-PDA's
WinCE answer:
It's both !
It's designed a PDA hardware specs on mind and the API from NT 4
The look & feel is from Win95/NT 4 with some "enhacements".
The pocket PC's do include a minimal Microsoft Office.
Since 2.0 version the Pocket eXcel has been eXellent and I use it
instead of a calculator all the time. No macros. :-(
BUT...
no CAS, sorry. Financial functions are included.
All the software, API, windows, etc. are shrunken down heavily
to fit into a portable PC. Display is half-VGA 640*240 and
none seem to offer a virtual screen. :-(.
The Pocket Word is close to Write or Wordpad rather than Word.
Pocket Powerpoint Viewer is only a viewer.
Pocket Access (since WinCE v.3.0) establishes the use of Access
databases and Applications in a pocketable environment.
It's tuly relational and uses SQL-92 as far as I have noticed.
The new Pocket PC:s seem to not only play music, but even
show some mpeg's.
Dreaming of a better (HP) world
I wish the next HP calculator would have a spreadsheat similar
to the HP 75C VisiCalc ROM, which included new BASIC keywords
for the programmer, an ability to write eXternal functions, other
eXpansions of the spreadsheet environment were also possible,
but I can Recall it Totally...
VPN
"David Haguenauer" <hsam...@lemel.fr> wrote in message
news:8qd7qd$q65$3...@front6.grolier.fr...
Jean-Yves Avenard
I've never said here that Xpander was using Windows CE. I do not confirm, I
do not deny.
I've just said that an Operating System such as Windows CE has nothing to do
with the kind of applications running on it.
Also, for your information, Windows CE, IS a Windows NT kernel at the
beggining. Of course it has been reduced in functionalities.
Also, in my experience with Jornada and an HP360LX, I've never seen the OS
crashing. Some of the applications yes, but not the machine.
So I wouldn't say Windows CE is unreliable.
I guess it has a bad reputation, because of the complexity of the
application running on it.
But come on, would you expect a Excel program running on a 60Mhz CPU to be
as fast as the PC version running on a 500Mhz CPU ?
You have to be realistic.
Most of the applications are slow, mainly because they were developped at
first for a PC, and they do way to much for my need.
It's a pity the way things go. I surely preferred my trustee HP200LX. Sure
it didn't look as good as a Jornada, but in was surely better in
functionalities. And a lot more robust.
I guess I'm becoming too old, soon I will complain that the HP49 doesn't
look like the HP41CX :)
Jean-Yves
"David Haguenauer" <hsam...@lemel.fr> wrote in message
news:8qas4i$g01$1...@front3.grolier.fr...
> >The Operating System has nothing to with the functionalities of a unit.
>
> Then why choose an OS with a name that has a bad reputation? I understand
> that it reduces (dramatically) the amount of code you will have to write,
> and that not everyone thinks of "Windows" as a defective GUI, but was
> there no alternative? Is it impossible to write a proprietary OS for this
> new product?
>
> >Apple Application running under Windows are great and look really good.
>
>
> HP apps running on HP OS running on HP calculators look even better. Every
> person I know experiences at least one crash a day under win 95. Win NT
> and Linux are much more stable (the issue with Linux, on a PC, being its
> relative lack of apps, but this is not an issue for the Xpander as soon as
> the product is new and isn't expected to have any preexistent software).
>
> >The application is I think more important than the OS.
>
> I think this isn't a good reason for choosing the OS at random.
>
> >Especially for an educational product.
>
>
j_man...@my-deja.com
> HP apps running on HP OS running on HP calculators look even better.
Every
> person I know experiences at least one crash a day under win 95. Win
NT
> and Linux are much more stable (the issue with Linux, on a PC, being
its
> relative lack of apps, but this is not an issue for the Xpander as
soon as
> the product is new and isn't expected to have any preexistent
software).
Lack of apps?? Have you seen http://www.gnu.org and similar pages about
Linux apps ?? If you want a good "office", then try StarOffice, if you
want a good math CAS program, then try MuPAD or similar, if you want a
good "matlab clone" try Scilab, if you want a good "photoshop" then try
Gimp... For educational market, Linux is one of the best choices (IMO)
because you have the sources of each of this software, and you can
modify it. For playing, I think Windows is fine, but for a professional
use is better more stability and efficiency, yes, efficiency, not the
way windows works (you'll allways need more RAM, more speed, is not
multitasking...).
J.Manrique
CdU de la ETSIIG
http://pagina.de/clubusu
j_man...@my-deja.com
"Jean-Yves Avenard" <aven...@epita.fr> wrote:
> Do not make me say what I didn't.
>
> I've never said here that Xpander was using Windows CE. I do not
confirm, I
> do not deny.
>
> I've just said that an Operating System such as Windows CE has
nothing to do
> with the kind of applications running on it.
>
> Also, for your information, Windows CE, IS a Windows NT kernel at the
> beggining. Of course it has been reduced in functionalities.
>
> Also, in my experience with Jornada and an HP360LX, I've never seen
the OS
> crashing. Some of the applications yes, but not the machine.
> So I wouldn't say Windows CE is unreliable.
>
> I guess it has a bad reputation, because of the complexity of the
> application running on it.
> But come on, would you expect a Excel program running on a 60Mhz CPU
to be
> as fast as the PC version running on a 500Mhz CPU ?
> You have to be realistic.
This question is really interesting. Excel (for example) and WinCE,
both come from Micrsoft, so I would expect a Excel program that takes
all the capabilities from the machine... but it doesn't happen. I am
realistic, a 60 Mhz CPU can handle with all the things that WinCE is
demanding, so, the answer from Microsoft... more RAM, more speed.
Micorsoft is not realistic. It's like the decission of not changing the
processor of Hp48/49... just make a better OS software, that's a good
solution, lower cost,... It's a question of effiency, s sometimes
simple things just run better...
Keith Farmer
news:8qeusu$v33$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Linux apps ?? If you want a good "office", then try StarOffice, if you
In my experience, StarOffice has been anything but good. The interface, in
particular, needs some serious overhauling -- have you read through the
perennial messages on the forums, begging Sun to nix the pseudo-desktop mode
and break out the apps into seperate windows? I've tried several times to
convince myself that it was worth keeping around, and wiped it each time,
preferring a text processor and borrowing the occasional time on Word.
> Gimp... For educational market, Linux is one of the best choices (IMO)
> because you have the sources of each of this software, and you can
That is only good for education, if the education is computer science. The
graphic artist probably isn't going to have the knowledge or the inclination
to modify the source to any of these programs -- and the same goes for the
professional market, too. They want ease, consistancy,
works-out-of-the-box, and *doesn't* need to be compiled and configured, but
that of all things cuts down on productivity in the workplace.
> modify it. For playing, I think Windows is fine, but for a professional
> use is better more stability and efficiency, yes, efficiency, not the
Thank you, but my Win2k box has a rather clean and efficient interface.
I've bothered to set up the task bar and launchers the way they should be,
using standard options. It took me less than a minute to get the framework
going, and I didn't have to recycle the shell (ala lightstep and the like).
And this isn't for playing -- I don't currently have *any* games loaded on
here. My professional use is database development.
Gildas COTOMALE
<aven...@epita.fr> a écrit :
> Do not make me say what I didn't.
>
> I've never said here that Xpander was using Windows CE. I do not confirm, I
> do not deny.
>
> I've just said that an Operating System such as Windows CE has nothing to do
> with the kind of applications running on it.
>
> Also, for your information, Windows CE, IS a Windows NT kernel at the
> beggining. Of course it has been reduced in functionalities.
>
> Also, in my experience with Jornada and an HP360LX, I've never seen the OS
> crashing. Some of the applications yes, but not the machine.
> So I wouldn't say Windows CE is unreliable.
>
> I guess it has a bad reputation, because of the complexity of the
> application running on it.
> But come on, would you expect a Excel program running on a 60Mhz CPU to be
> as fast as the PC version running on a 500Mhz CPU ?
> You have to be realistic.
> Most of the applications are slow, mainly because they were developped at
> first for a PC, and they do way to much for my need.
>
So Kro$oft developers are bad ones (maybe they just re compile their source
but don't really -or not at all- improve their compilers) ...
> It's a pity the way things go. I surely preferred my trustee HP200LX. Sure
> it didn't look as good as a Jornada, but in was surely better in
> functionalities. And a lot more robust.
>
On that point, I agree with you & won't ever sale my 200LX -till death :)
> I guess I'm becoming too old, soon I will complain that the HP49 doesn't
> look like the HP41CX :)
>
> Jean-Yves
>
> "David Haguenauer" <hsam...@lemel.fr> wrote in message
> news:8qas4i$g01$1...@front3.grolier.fr...
>> >The Operating System has nothing to with the functionalities of a unit.
>>
Maybe, maybe not.
All OS don't allow apps swithing, multitask, parallel processing, etc. lol
It's also a question of stability, scarlity, feeling (not same with Windows,
Macintosch or BeOs interfaces), security, cost (not only buying, but
competances, administration and maintenance) ...
>> Then why choose an OS with a name that has a bad reputation? I understand
>> that it reduces (dramatically) the amount of code you will have to write,
>> and that not everyone thinks of "Windows" as a defective GUI, but was
>> there no alternative? Is it impossible to write a proprietary OS for this
>> new product?
>>
>> >Apple Application running under Windows are great and look really good.
>>
Reciprocal is s.time tru also.
>>
>> HP apps running on HP OS running on HP calculators look even better. Every
>> person I know experiences at least one crash a day under win 95. Win NT
>> and Linux are much more stable (the issue with Linux, on a PC, being its
>> relative lack of apps, but this is not an issue for the Xpander as soon as
>> the product is new and isn't expected to have any preexistent software).
>>
>> >The application is I think more important than the OS.
>>
>> I think this isn't a good reason for choosing the OS at random.
>>
>> >Especially for an educational product.
>>
No, a good reason educational product should be open source.
>>
>> Does it mean you don't expect users to ever program? Because the OS does
>> matter for people who program!
>>
Yes ;))
>>
>> David Haguenauer
>> http://zap.to/hsimpson
>>
>>
Gildas C.
>
>
James M. Prange
German to get myself into trouble, and even less French.
--
JMP
j_man...@my-deja.com
"Keith Farmer" <far...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> <j_man...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8qeusu$v33$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
you
>
interface, in
> particular, needs some serious overhauling -- have you read through
the
> perennial messages on the forums, begging Sun to nix the pseudo-
desktop mode
> and break out the apps into seperate windows? I've tried several
times to
> convince myself that it was worth keeping around, and wiped it each
time,
> preferring a text processor and borrowing the occasional time on Word.
>
It was only an example... There are more alternatives...
> > Gimp... For educational market, Linux is one of the best choices
(IMO)
> > because you have the sources of each of this software, and you can
>
> That is only good for education, if the education is computer science.
We were talking about education, weren't we?
>The graphic artist probably isn't going to have the knowledge or the
inclination
> to modify the source to any of these programs -- and the same goes
for the professional market, too.
But at least they would have the posibility to make it, just freedom.
> They want ease, consistancy,
> works-out-of-the-box, and *doesn't* need to be compiled and
configured, but
> that of all things cuts down on productivity in the workplace.
>
Just like the windows blue screen or similar bugs... Ok, Microsoft
allways will have a new version of his OS ready in a couple of years at
a "low" cost...
> > modify it. For playing, I think Windows is fine, but for a
professional
> > use is better more stability and efficiency, yes, efficiency, not
the
>
> Thank you, but my Win2k box has a rather clean and efficient
interface.
It's suposed, they have all this time from the first MS-DOS to make a
good interface for it...
> I've bothered to set up the task bar and launchers the way they
should be,
> using standard options. It took me less than a minute to get the
framework
> going, and I didn't have to recycle the shell (ala lightstep and the
like).
>
> And this isn't for playing -- I don't currently have *any* games
loaded on
> here. My professional use is database development.
>
Sorry if you have misunderstood me, Windows systems usually are better
for playing that Linux systems, but Linux systems usually are better
for hard jobs than Windows Systems...
There is a joke about why special effects from "Titanic" were made with
Linux machines instead Windows... "The ship didn't shink, it floated in
the air with the message (No valid operation: Close Details)"
Ok, it was a bad joke. I supose Microsoft systems aren't as bad as
people say, but after testing some Linux systems, and some
distributions that with only a 3'5'' disk or two can run in RAM and are
a complete Linux (ok, with a poor interface, but a power OS
anyway..),or seeing some StrongARM machine running Linux (PLEB, Compaq
iPAQ,...) I think Linux has future in this world.
I know there are more options like QNX, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, Epoc,... this
was just an opinion.
Steen Schmidt
I
> do not deny.
No, you don't have to.
Take a look at
http://www-s.ti.com/cgi-bin/discuss/sdbmessageview.cgi?databasetoopen=calcul
ators&topicarea=TI-89/92+Plus&viewmethod=Thread&messageid=71621 for the
first Xpander review by a TI guy!
The first Xpander review by a TI student?
I'm not far from ditching HP all together - why defend a company that
doesn't care about its customers anymore?. Geeeeeesssh.
Regards
Steen
James M. Prange
That still wouldn't excuse the "guides" that come with the 49G. The
developers have their jobs developing the system. Presumably, someone
else at HP has the responsibility of writing the user documentation. I
hate to imagine how many new users work through the guides, never
realize how powerful and user friendly (in RPN mode) this tool is, and
tell their friends not to waste their money on it.
--
JMP
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
> Do not make me say what I didn't.
I'll pay you 100 ?uros for that !!! ;-)
> I've never said here that Xpander was using Windows CE. I do not confirm,
I
> do not deny.
But that's what you said???
OK: it's LISP based brand new HP-OS to accommodate Mu-Pad 2.0
Admit - admit ! Say something! "#£$%
X
> I guess I'm becoming too old, soon I will complain that the HP49 doesn't
> look like the HP41CX :)
It's all your fault ;-)
> Jean-Yves
VPN
Disclaimer: (effecting in millenniums past, due and future)
I take no responsabity of anything I type here ;-)
timi...@yahoo.fr
> > I've never said here that Xpander was using Windows CE. I do not
confirm,
> I
> > do not deny.
>
>
> Take a look at
>
http://www-s.ti.com/cgi-bin/discuss/sdbmessageview.cgi?databasetoopen=calcul
> ators&topicarea=TI-89/92+Plus&viewmethod=Thread&messageid=71621 for
the
> first Xpander review by a TI guy!
>
> The first Xpander review by a TI student?
> I'm not far from ditching HP all together - why defend a company that
> doesn't care about its customers anymore?. Geeeeeesssh.
>
> Regards
> Steen
>
I would really like to ear what the A.C.O has to say about that.
I hope that it is only a violation of N.D.A.
Keith Farmer
news:8qffib$h8m$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> We were talking about education, weren't we?
The average computer user is not a computer student. Far from it, in fact.
Additionally, not everyone really wants to learn to program, or be a math
whiz, or the like (I have a degree in astroNOMY -- how many of the people on
the street would start asking me about their horoscope?). This is why we
have pre-compiled binaries, installers, and accountants.
[ > Keith Farmer wrote: ]
> >The graphic artist probably isn't going to have the knowledge or the
> But at least they would have the posibility to make it, just freedom.
More than likely, they'd end up breaking it, and spending more time, effort,
and money in repairing the damage than if they'd left it alone. The Open
Source movement really is of use only to programmers. To non-programmers,
it serves no direct purpose. Linux in particular has nothing to offer a
company that has no Unix-trained personnel. Just because it's free and you
can modify its kernal doesn't mean it's the right choice for the masses.
Consider the HP49 -- the $EXTPRG hooks that allow library *programmers*
access to the APPS menu, etc, are nifty. They are not, however, for the
inexperienced. One wrong move, and I've made plenty on my own, and you get
a TTRM. I'll bless the person at ACO who thought of giving us the flash
ports -- they've saved my butt many times.
> Just like the windows blue screen or similar bugs... Ok, Microsoft
While I'll certainly be the last to deny BSOD presence in Win9x, I'll say
that my Win2k box has never bluescreened since I stopped trying to use 9x
drivers. My uptime is measured by my own desire.
> It's suposed, they have all this time from the first MS-DOS to make a
> good interface for it...
I consider anything less than Win2k to be a very long beta test. Win3 was
miserable. Win9x started getting a decent interface, though the stability
was an annoyance. NT has stability, but an evil edge in the smoothness of
the design. Win2k Pro is a wonderful thing. I admit, I'm impressed (and I
was using DOS and Unix/Linux strictly until 2 years ago).
> Sorry if you have misunderstood me, Windows systems usually are better
> for playing that Linux systems, but Linux systems usually are better
> for hard jobs than Windows Systems...
If your hard job entails running a very long, intensive calculation, I'd
concede the low overhead of a Unix-class system works well. For overall
stability, of course it wins there, too. But for ease of use, particularly
for people who haven't used a command line, are not programmers, etc, the
latest Windows comes out on top. When it comes to measuring real
performance, you always have to take into account the use of the system.
Mainframes just sit by themselves and serve other computers with little
human interference. Desktops are a different matter: it's as good as a
burned out lightbulb unless the user is competent in using it to get
equivalent work done. Generally, that means a non-programmer/non-guru at
the keyboard, and the choice of OS must reflect their abilities or lack
thereof.
Which would you give a 10 year old: a bicycle, which is easy to maintain
and very easy to ride, or a motorcycle, which goes faster, but has more
difficult handling and work.
> a complete Linux (ok, with a poor interface, but a power OS
My bare-bones Linux box was running on 4M ram, 40M hd (16M in swap); my DOS
system was running on 640k, 20M. I'm not saying that Linux doesn't have a
future -- I think it does, in the right market.
Specifically, *not* the market of the average user.
David Haguenauer
>I've never said here that Xpander was using Windows CE. I do
>not confirm, I do not deny.
Okay. You had frightened me :o).
>I've just said that an Operating System such as Windows CE has
>nothing to do
>with the kind of applications running on it.
Now, I know that companies such as HP don't have to justify their
technical choices, but once we'll know everything about the Xpander, do
you plan to explain what made the team prefer its OS to another one?
>Also, for your information, Windows CE, IS a Windows NT kernel at the
>beggining. Of course it has been reduced in functionalities.
>Also, in my experience with Jornada and an HP360LX, I've never seen the
>OS crashing.
I've also used NT4.0 and experienced very few crashes (compared to
W98). It's likely that the relatively lighter hardware of small machines,
together with a possible rewrite of sensitive parts of the OS parts have
made CE nearly perfect.
>I guess it has a bad reputation, because of the complexity of the
>application running on it.
I believe it's related to its name. Most people have W95, associate
"Windows" with "too frequent crashes", and hence find it likely for
anything called Windows to be buggy.
>But come on, would you expect a Excel program running on a 60Mhz
>CPU to be as fast as the PC version running on a 500Mhz CPU ?
In fact, yes, almost. Just a few years ago, home PCs ran at 60MHz. Of
course, I don't expect Office 2000 to run as quickly as on a 500MHz CPU, I
don't even expect it to run at all, but I would like to have Office '90
running as quickly as it did on a 386. I'm not sure that removing useful
functions (e.g. macros) is justified (There's as much RAM as in the 1990
PC) and useless stuff can be removed (bent paper clip, Word flipper,
animations) to save "disk space".
>I guess I'm becoming too old, soon I will complain that the HP49 doesn't
>look like the HP41CX :)
Hehe. It doesn't? Unlike me, you know the answers to these questions:
1) Is it an obligation to use an already existent OS for the Xpander?
Would it be far too expensive to write one?
2) Do portable OSes always come with their GUI (e.g. MS-DOS with the
Windows layer, etc)?
David Haguenauer
http://zap.to/hsimpson
David Haguenauer
>>being its
>> relative lack of apps,
That's why I wrote "relative". There are indeed many programs available
for Linux, but, unfortunately, Windows software seems to be more complete
(for me!).
>If you want a good "office", then try StarOffice,
Read Keith Farmer's review... I didn't try it myself.
>if you want a good "photoshop" then try Gimp...
Let me laugh! Sure, Gimp may become a serious competitor to Photoshop with
a lot of updates, but currently I think it's just like Paintbrush with
gadgets and an annoying interface. Same comment about Killustrator. They
are very promising, and I am sure that they will become better than their
models, but currently I consider that they're nothing more than
curiosities.
My point, however, was that the OS didn't matter that much, because all
the software it will run will be written from scratch. We need it to be
stable and possibly easy to use/"powerful".
>For educational market, Linux is one of the best choices (IMO)
I agree. I just meant that it didn't have all the capabilities I need in a
PC. Linux is also clearly better for web servers, because Apache was
developed primarily for Linux, and web servers are expected to crash as
rarely as possible.
David Haguenauer
http://zap.to/hsimpson
savage
news:WMHy5.10$Pf....@news010.worldonline.dk...
> > I've never said here that Xpander was using Windows CE. I do not
confirm,
> I
> > do not deny.
>
> Take a look at
>
http://www-s.ti.com/cgi-bin/discuss/sdbmessageview.cgi?databasetoopen=calcul
> ators&topicarea=TI-89/92+Plus&viewmethod=Thread&messageid=71621 for the
> first Xpander review by a TI guy!
> The first Xpander review by a TI student?
How can we be sure -- could not this be misinformation?
Greg S
David Haguenauer
>But Motorola, Nokia, Ericsson and Psion plus (can't recall now)
>are buildning the new phones on that platform.
Phones? I hope it works for PDAs too!
>WinCE answer: >It's both !
[both OS and GUI]
Do you mean that they can't be separated (all winCE machines have a start
menu?)?
David Haguenauer
http://zap.to/hsimpson
Steen Schmidt
> >are buildning the new phones on that platform.
Nokia? Well, I feel a couple of NDAs coming up :-)
> Phones? I hope it works for PDAs too!
You see.......probably....
Regards
Steen
Jean-Yves Avenard
As far as I know, it is not.
Some Xpanders units were given to teachers so they can try the units and
give feedbacks. Unfortunately, as TI owns 90% of the calculator market in
the US, the first students to try it were TI users, doesn't mean that no HP
user will...
A good way to bring them under HP wings ??
Jean-Yves
<timi...@yahoo.fr> wrote in message news:8qfoc4$rkm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > The first Xpander review by a TI student?
timi...@yahoo.fr
"Jean-Yves Avenard" <aven...@epita.fr> wrote:
> Hello
>
> As far as I know, it is not.
>
> Some Xpanders units were given to teachers so they can try the units
and
> give feedbacks. Unfortunately, as TI owns 90% of the calculator market
in
> the US, the first students to try it were TI users, doesn't mean that
no HP
> user will...
> A good way to bring them under HP wings ??
>
> Jean-Yves
But are the students and the teachers involved in Xpander allowed to
give informations on it ?
Because if they can why haven't we more infos on Xpander on the HP web
site or here?
> <timi...@yahoo.fr> wrote in message
news:8qfoc4$rkm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > > The first Xpander review by a TI student?
> > > I'm not far from ditching HP all together - why defend a company
that
> > > doesn't care about its customers anymore?. Geeeeeesssh.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Steen
> > >
> >
> > I would really like to ear what the A.C.O has to say about that.
> > I hope that it is only a violation of N.D.A.
> >
>
>
Keith Farmer
news:4m7uss8r0gu51c9d9...@4ax.com...
> I disagree. Although non-programmers won't modify it (at least not if
> they want it to work ;), they know that *because* it is open source
> and open to inspection by thousands of others, it won't contain
> viruses, or trojans, or 'phone-home spyware, or any of a number of
> possible problems with "closed" software. They also know that they
> won't be tied to the whims of one commercial organisation.
I contend the opposite. Part of what you pay for is tech support and
assurance that a multi-million-dollar corporation would get its cajones sued
off if they shipped a virus. I actually trust any brand-name software more
than public-domain because of that incentive on their part. That level of
trust exacts a price that I'm willing to pay.
Open Source, on the other hand, can be easily modified in ways that any
malicious person could conceal from any average user, or even the
not-so-average user: ever follow the obfuscated C-code contest?. By the
time a trojan source (sorse?) is noticed, it's done its damage and you
probably don't have any reasonable way to trace it. If you do, what
recourse do you have to recover damages?
As for being tied to whims? All software is tied to some person or groups
whims, such as the FSF. Why should I trust their liability more than
Microsoft's -- at least I have friends who work for Microsoft, but I don't
personally know anybody involved with the FSF.
> Not a regular reader of rec.bicycle.tech, then ;)
Not by choice -- it's been a while since I was much of a rider. Though when
*I* was 10, I was disassembling my mountain bike and putting it back
together again (better than the persons paid to do so -- my right pedal was
threaded wrong). I dare say I'm more of a gremlin with machinery than not,
so something's to be said there.
Darryl Okahata
> "Julian Wald" <j...@ptolserv.com> wrote in message
> news:4m7uss8r0gu51c9d9...@4ax.com...
> > I disagree. Although non-programmers won't modify it (at least not if
> > they want it to work ;), they know that *because* it is open source
> > and open to inspection by thousands of others, it won't contain
> > viruses, or trojans, or 'phone-home spyware, or any of a number of
> > possible problems with "closed" software. They also know that they
> > won't be tied to the whims of one commercial organisation.
>
> I contend the opposite. Part of what you pay for is tech support and
> assurance that a multi-million-dollar corporation would get its cajones sued
> off if they shipped a virus. I actually trust any brand-name software more
> than public-domain because of that incentive on their part. That level of
> trust exacts a price that I'm willing to pay.
>
> Open Source, on the other hand, can be easily modified in ways that any
> malicious person could conceal from any average user, or even the
> not-so-average user: ever follow the obfuscated C-code contest?. By the
> time a trojan source (sorse?) is noticed, it's done its damage and you
> probably don't have any reasonable way to trace it. If you do, what
> recourse do you have to recover damages?
Both of these views are somewhat extreme. While these issues
certainly do exist, and are valid concerns, they're generally not a
problem, as long as you stick to "mainstream" open-source. While there
is (IMO) a lot of open-source software which ranges from questionable to
pure garbage, there is also a lot of open-source software that is of
very high-quality. Examples include: FreeBSD, Linux, and GNU
Emacs/XEmacs.
With the major open-source software, the distributions/releases
come from places that people trust (software changes can go through a
review process), and the distributions/releases are often digitally
signed (to prevent trojan horses, etc.).
[ If you really insist on having someone to sue, then you might as well
stick to expensive, commercial software. ]
Personally, I'd love to have an open-source PDA with lots of memory
and a powerful processor -- one running some open-source Unix like
FreeBSD or Linux. Why? Because I could then run GNU Emac Calc on it
(among other things). Right now, I'd need a laptop.
[ Yes, I know about the Compaq iPAQ, which can run Linux, X11, and
802.11b wireless networking. However, it's not yet ready for prime
time, and I'm not sure that 32MB is enough. ]
For those of you unfamiliar with GNU Emacs Calc, it's a free,
powerful symbolic math calculator inspired by the old HP 28/48 series.
It runs as a module under GNU Emacs/XEmacs (a programmer's text editor),
and features:
* Choice of algebraic or RPN (stack-based) entry of calculations.
* Arbitrary precision integers and floating-point numbers.
* Arithmetic on rational numbers, complex numbers (rectangular and
polar), error forms with standard deviations, open and closed
intervals, vectors and matrices, dates and times, infinities,
sets, quantities with units, and algebraic formulas.
* Mathematical operations such as logarithms and trigonometric
functions.
* Programmer's features (bitwise operations, non-decimal numbers).
* Financial functions such as future value and internal rate of
return.
* Number theoretical features such as prime factorization and
arithmetic modulo M for any M.
* Algebraic manipulation features, including symbolic calculus.
* Moving data to and from regular editing buffers.
* "Embedded mode" for manipulating Calc formulas and data directly
inside any editing buffer.
* Graphics using GNUPLOT, a versatile (and free) plotting program.
* Easy programming using keyboard macros, algebraic formulas,
algebraic rewrite rules, or extended Emacs Lisp.
Some examples:
100! ->
609332621544394415268169923885626670049071596826438162146859
296389521759999322991560894146397615651828625369792082722375
8251185210916864000000000000000000000000
(Number manually split up every 60 characters for readability.)
With 40-digit precision:
100! / 113 --> 8.25895711893311085678754326161652216732e155
Another simple example:
d ln(x) -2 ln(x)
-- ----- --> x - -----
dx x 2
x
This is all RPN, and so it's very nice. It also comes with a 500+ page
tutorial and manual.
Perhaps, the biggest advantage and the biggest disadvantage of GNU
Emacs Calc is that it runs under GNU Emacs/XEmacs; it's not a standalone
program.
--
Darryl Okahata
dar...@soco.agilent.com
DISCLAIMER: this message is the author's personal opinion and does not
constitute the support, opinion, or policy of Agilent Technologies, or
of the little green men that have been following him all day.
Keith Farmer
"Darryl Okahata" <dar...@soco.agilent.com> wrote in message
news:vwn1gvn...@mina.soco.agilent.com...
> Perhaps, the biggest advantage and the biggest disadvantage of GNU
> Emacs Calc is that it runs under GNU Emacs/XEmacs; it's not a standalone
> program.
While that's a downer, most heavy-duty calculating engines I know about are
just that -- engines: Mathematica, Octave, Derive, etc. Not much
difference, then, IMHO.
I'd say the disadvantage is the fact that it relies on emacs -- you require
an extra limb or two to handle the keystrokes ;)
(hate to say it, but it *is* better than vi.. even then, I'm still a fan of
pico (*nix) and UltraEdit (Win32)
John H Meyers
> [...]
You see? -- even a divided HP can still conquer ;)
> [GNU Emacs calc] also comes with a 500+ page tutorial and manual.
Only free products can afford that :)
-----------------------------------------------------------
With best wishes from: John H Meyers <jhme...@mum.edu>