Qonos- A Future Failure?
Aaron Toponce
wonder if it will take off in the sectors that it is focusing. This
scientific PDA is very similar to the Sharp Zaurus Linux PDA found at
this website: http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT2134869242.html
Sharp had minimal success with the Zaurus primarily because of the
Linux OS. Another feature that users didn't like was the hidden kay
pad.
I am excited for the Qonos release to see the final prodoct and to test
one in my hands (that is if it is available in the US). I know that
the pictures are just prototypes. Maybe the hardware could be designed
more after the Casio Classpad 300?
Anyway, I am excited for it's initial release, and will definitely play
around with one if I get the opportunity. Who knows, I may even
purchase one. BTW- what is the projected price of the unit? I hope it
does well, and I wish the design team the best of luck.
cycojesus
> After visiting HPCalc.org and hydrix.com about the Poject Qonos, I
> wonder if it will take off in the sectors that it is focusing. This
> scientific PDA is very similar to the Sharp Zaurus Linux PDA found at
> this website: http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT2134869242.html
> Sharp had minimal success with the Zaurus primarily because of the
> Linux OS. Another feature that users didn't like was the hidden kay
> pad.
>
PDA market and that the Zaurus is one of the top-selling PDA in Japan.
I don't see why Linux would be a drawback for the Zaurus, if nobody
tells you it's running GNU/Linux you don't even notice it... The major
drawback of the Z is the lack of Palm-level PIM apps, nothing else. It
may not sell well outside Japan, but... wait ! you can't even easely
buy one outside the US, and it truly looks like Sharp don't _want_ to
sell it...
> I am excited for the Qonos release to see the final prodoct and to test
> one in my hands (that is if it is available in the US). I know that
> the pictures are just prototypes. Maybe the hardware could be designed
> more after the Casio Classpad 300?
>
Arghhhh !! not a Casio ;)
> Anyway, I am excited for it's initial release, and will definitely play
> around with one if I get the opportunity. Who knows, I may even
> purchase one. BTW- what is the projected price of the unit? I hope it
> does well, and I wish the design team the best of luck.
>
me too
John
> wonder if it will take off in the sectors that it is focusing. This
> scientific PDA is very similar to the Sharp Zaurus Linux PDA found at
> this website: http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT2134869242.html
> Sharp had minimal success with the Zaurus primarily because of the
> Linux OS. Another feature that users didn't like was the hidden kay
> pad.
(my lay opinion....)
I think it's a lot about quality, price, and positioning. Can Qonos be
a little like the old HP caculators - high quality in just about every
aspect, high price (sigh), no discounting, and a loyal following?
If it's like the old HPs in construction, keyboard, feel,
documentation, etc. then I *think* it could be successful. It seems to
me that you have to identify and capture a niche market, i.e. you
couldn't compete with TI's resources on the consumer end.
If the construction, documentation, etc. are cheesy I don't think
people will fork out a bunch.
Linux seems a good fit for a scientific device, maybe not a general
PDA (yet), because science and engineering people respect Linux.
Another part could be how open source it is for the Linux community.
If it's close and proprietary (I suspect Sharp is in many ways), then
I think Linux types will be offended and you'd loose the
Linux-connection with that group of users.
rcobo
> After visiting HPCalc.org and hydrix.com about the Poject Qonos, I
> wonder if it will take off in the sectors that it is focusing. This
> scientific PDA is very similar to the Sharp Zaurus Linux PDA found at
> this website: http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT2134869242.html
> Sharp had minimal success with the Zaurus primarily because of the
> Linux OS.
well, i don't know how many PDAs have failed and they used pocketpc.
maybe the linux OS is not to blame here. what makes you think the OS
is the culprit?
>Another feature that users didn't like was the hidden kay
> pad.
and who are the users you are referring to? ;)
the main cry people had was the PIM integration, which has improved
lately. remember that the Z has had a short development life in
comparison with the others platforms. other than that, everything
works as advertised.
http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2004/07/15/zaurus_sl6000l.html
> I am excited for the Qonos release to see the final prodoct and to test
> one in my hands (that is if it is available in the US). I know that
> the pictures are just prototypes. Maybe the hardware could be designed
> more after the Casio Classpad 300?
good lord. that is a real abomination ;)
they should block the pictures to prevent brain tumors
> Anyway, I am excited for it's initial release, and will definitely play
> around with one if I get the opportunity. Who knows, I may even
> purchase one. BTW- what is the projected price of the unit? I hope it
> does well, and I wish the design team the best of luck.
i whish then well too
greetings
Jean Lemire
You summarized it very well.
Quality, feel, documentation. This means efficiency.
If this new Qonos product adress the problem described below, that HP
and others have, it may be a great success.
The problem is that HP, to name only one company, is designing very
powerfull machines but they are packaged (keyboard quality, etc)like
cell phones to appeal mostly to young peoples and mostly to students.
They have forgotten that there is a lot more of potential buyers in
the working class. Quite often, these people (including me) do not
give a damn to the look but give a much greater weigth to efficiency.
If the Qonos is able to prove that it address that preocupation that I
have for an efficient computing device, I will certainly give it a
serious though.
Wait and see and good luck to the team at Hydrix.
Jean (Johhny) Lemire from Richelieu, Quebec, Canada.
manjo
i would always buy an calculator type unit rather then
PDA with calculator emulator.
It is much about keyboard, and design in general
i'll say something here what may sound strange to PDA users:
i realy hate the PDA design, touch screen is nice,
-for drawing and selecting things, but handwriting sux,
there are simply not enough keys there :-)
HP48 & 49 series has just about right amount of keys, although
49G+ for current layout of functions and letters misses a key or two.
on the other hand -didn't you just love the big ENTER key on 48 series ?
i hope Hydrix guys can sum the traditional and practical values of all what
is available
and make a compilation of success rather then mix of features.
manjo
"rcobo" <rc...@eng.morgan.edu> wrote in message
news:639cb51.04072...@posting.google.com...
Aaron Toponce
the 48 series, and the monochromatic screen. However, I love the PDA
look and feel. Sure, it takes a little to get used to the handwriting
recognition, but it doesn't take that much. I would rather have
handwriting over buttons, personally.
I agree with the quality. I would much rather have an ugly product
with high quality than a good looking product with no quality. I think
HP learned some lessons with the Jornada PDA's and the original 49G.
However, with those lessons learned, I would like to see a good looking
product with Qonos. And IMHO, the prototype pictures aren't
attractive. Just constructive criticism.
reth
quality will be the key for success. The HP41 looked ugly to me before I got
to use it....
Regardsnews:cdq09i$h...@odak26.prod.google.com...
Cockpit Colin
The 41 was the most beautiful piece of quality engineering to ever grace the
planet in it's day - waaaaaaaaay ahead of it's time :)
(and it's missed less key presses in 20 years than my 49g+ has in 1 day)
CC
Wayne Brown
> It goes back to nostalgia. I love the buttons, the big ENTER key on
> the 48 series, and the monochromatic screen. However, I love the PDA
> look and feel. Sure, it takes a little to get used to the handwriting
> recognition, but it doesn't take that much. I would rather have
> handwriting over buttons, personally.
I'm just the opposite; I've *never* liked handwriting anything if I
possibly could avoid it. For instance, I've been typing all my personal
letters for years, even before PCs and word processing software became
available. In fact, if I want to leave a short note for my wife or
kids I usually write it with a text editor, print it, and tape it to the
front door. Also, I almost never write checks; I pay bills online whenever
possible, use an ATM card for shopping, and my wife keeps the checkbook.
About the only thing I ever handwrite these days is my signature.
So handwriting recognition in a calculator would be worse than useless
to me.
--
Wayne Brown (HPCC #1104) | "When your tail's in a crack, you improvise
fwb...@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give
| your pelt to the trapper."
"e^(i*pi) = -1" -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, "Silverlock"
Wayne Brown
AMEN!!!
reth
just because it was way ahead of it's time :) That changed the day I got my
hands on one. For me the HP41 is still No.1 and looks like that's not gonna
change, unfortunately :(
Cheers
"Cockpit Colin" <sp...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:qffMc.4040$N77.2...@news.xtra.co.nz...
reth
cheers
William Meyer
> For me the HP41 is still No.1 and looks like that's not gonna
> change, unfortunately :(
It's the one that still sits on my desk for quick answers.
--
Bill
Posted with XanaNews Version 1.16.3.1
William Meyer
> I'm just the opposite; I've never liked handwriting anything if I
> possibly could avoid it. For instance, I've been typing all my
> personal letters for years, even before PCs and word processing
> software became available. In fact, if I want to leave a short note
> for my wife or kids I usually write it with a text editor, print it,
> and tape it to the front door. Also, I almost never write checks; I
> pay bills online whenever possible, use an ATM card for shopping, and
> my wife keeps the checkbook. About the only thing I ever handwrite
> these days is my signature. So handwriting recognition in a
> calculator would be worse than useless to me.
Same for me. My handwriting was never pretty, and with lack of use, has
only gotten worse. It's at its worst on the few occasions when while
signing my name, I become conscious of the process, and then I can't
write at all ;)
However, I would guess that referring to "handwriting recognition" is
still a bit overblown, and that "handprinting recognition" may be
closer to the mark.
Aaron Toponce
" Can you point any similar product you consider attractive? IMO
keyboard quality will be the key for success. The HP41 looked ugly to
me before I got to use it....
Regards"
Pretty much all of the TI calcs are attractive hardware. The Casio
Classpad is attractive. Also, the iPaq that Compaq/HP produced is
attractive. The Palm T3- attractive. Other hardware not related: the
iPod, iMac, and Suunto watches just to name a few are all attractive
pieces of hardware.
Aaron
Jean-Yves Avenard
> front door. Also, I almost never write checks; I pay bills online whenever
> possible, use an ATM card for shopping, and my wife keeps the checkbook.
> About the only thing I ever handwrite these days is my signature.
Do you know that statistics shows that if only using an ATM card you're
likely to spend 30% more on purchases per month than when using check or
cash?
ATM cards is your friend to spend more money than necessary...
Average American spends 110% of his income...
Average Australian spends 105% of his income
Average person in Singapore spends 85% of his income..
85% of what you buy (other than food) will not be used after 2 years
Jean-Yves
Michael Heinz
Hey! We're only doing our patriotic duty to keep the economy humming!
;-)
GS
without restraint and keep other people (mostly Asians) employed.
"Michael Heinz" <porkchop...@NOSPAM.mac.com> wrote in message
news:porkchop_d_clown-FD...@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
Wayne Brown
I didn't know about the statistics, but I do have to keep a closer check
on purchases made by any card (ATM or credit) rather than by check.
In my case, I tend to spend less if I use the ATM card like a credit
card for direct purchases than if I use the card to withdraw cash and
then spend the cash.
Bhuvanesh
Can you provide a source for these numbers? Oh, and I don't have an
ATM card... never really needed one :-) [You don't mean a credit card,
right?]
Cheers,
Bhuvanesh.
Mads
I have heard they are ok, but from second hand – I am quite convinced
that my source read it in LeMonde. I believe that "Average" means most
people in the big middle and lower class – so rich business people
like Bill Gates aren't included.
> Average person in Singapore spends 85% of his income..
Maybe it is a part of their culture that the wife doesn't keep the
checkbook ;-)
Mads
Mads
> possibly could avoid it.
Well, I suppose we all have got our habits. Personally I write notes
by hand and longer text in an editor. I write nice readable letters by
hand, but I am somewhat impatient. So the more non-fragmented words I
write the smaller my letters get, and in the end (around some 150
words) even I can't read my own letters! Writing fast on a keyboard
does not cause the same problem.
Mads
Eric Smith
> 85% of what you buy (other than food) will not be used after 2 years
I suspect that more than 85% of the food that I buy will not be used
after 2 years, also.
Helen
> After visiting HPCalc.org and hydrix.com about the Poject Qonos, I
> wonder if it will take off in the sectors that it is focusing.
Well, one must first wonder what that sector might be. I do not see
any reasonable market for this product. Apart from that, the whole
idea is about as uninspired as they come: Slap together a couple of
pieces of hardware, and then run some old calculators on it in
emulation. Hey, for the fun of it, we'll also throw in a random
collection of half-baked freeware applications! And, wow!, it will
have a big "Enter" key. Now there's some vision...
Apart from that, who in the world is going to pay $350 for this kind
of a geek toy? Sure, some of the starry-eyed kids in this forum will
buy it, but apart from those? Another one of these products without a
market. Good luck to Hydrix, they sure will need it. I will give them
this much: Their management has quite a bit of experience with the
development of products that fail in the market. It appears they put
it to good use again.
So, yes, future failure seems to be guaranteed...
-- Helen.
Brandon
GHMoh...@yahoo.com (Helen) wrote in message news:<1a8f5fe5.04073...@posting.google.com>...
James M. Prange
> scientific PDA is very similar to the Sharp Zaurus Linux PDA found at
> this website: http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT2134869242.html
> Sharp had minimal success with the Zaurus primarily because of the
> pad.
>
> I am excited for the Qonos release to see the final prodoct and to test
> one in my hands (that is if it is available in the US). I know that
> the pictures are just prototypes. Maybe the hardware could be designed
> more after the Casio Classpad 300?
>
> around with one if I get the opportunity. Who knows, I may even
> purchase one. BTW- what is the projected price of the unit? I hope it
> does well, and I wish the design team the best of luck.
It seems to me that perhaps the biggest problem for "Project
Qonos" may be too small of a realistic target market. It seems to
me that I've read somewhere of an expected price in the
neighborhood of US$350-400. That strikes me as too expensive for a
calculator for most high-school kids, and even most college kids.
Sure, some of us in this newsgroup may well buy one, and if the TI
fanatics are aware of it, maybe some of them will buy one too. It
may appeal to professional users who need an advanced calculator
in the field. If the I/O and data-gathering capabilities are as
good as they should be, that should expand the market to those who
want those capabilities in a hand-held device, if they become
aware of it. But that doesn't strike me as an especially large
market.
Is it a hand-held computer with calculator capabilities, or a
hand-held calculator with computer capabilities? Or something else
entirely? Okay, I see the "scientific PDA" label, but the "PDA"
part of that rather puts me off; I've never tried a PDA, but my
impression is that they're gadgets that combine a digital Rolodex,
scheduling calendar, and note pad for those with more money than
sense, sort of an electronic version of a Franklin "organiser". A
general purpose design has the advantage of being capable of doing
many different things, but all too often with the disadvantage of
doing none of them well.
How much extra will accessories such as the sled and probes cost?
Does the sled have any stand-alone data gathering capability, or
is it useful only when the calculator (or whatever we call it) is
attached?
How portable will the sled be? Can I use the sled on battery power
only for a reasonable length of time, or will I have to find
somewhere to plug it in frequently?
Speaking of power, will the charger/adapter be a design suitable
for "world-wide" voltages and frequencies? That is (I think),
about 100-240V 50-60Hz. What about the various AC power plug
designs?
Will an adapter for 12V DC vehicle power be available?
Are the power connections to the device and sled AC or DC? Or even
AC/DC (like the HP 82240 printers)?
Are the power regulation, filtering, and charging circuits
built-in to the device and sled, or are they in the power adapter?
Are the batteries a design that's widely used and available and
that we can expect to be remain available for a long time? I
wouldn't want to find that the battery is custom-designed for this
device and already obsolete and unavailable the first time that I
needed to replace it.
At the expected price, I wouldn't consider this to be a disposable
product; it should work for a very long time.
What about outdoor use? I wouldn't expect it to be capable of
being used under water, but hopefully reasonably tolerant of fog,
drizzle, dust, and outdoor ambient temperatures.
A defective keyboard would be a real killer for the project. In
general, good quality assurance (both design and production) is a
must, especially for a company that doesn't have a legacy of a
well-established good name to fall back on when things go wrong.
I have my doubts about the hinged design; will it be easy to use
both hand-held and on a desktop? Will it be reliable? Robust
enough for field use?
And I wonder how well the keyboard layout will work for emulating
the 49G, and whatever TI it emulates, for that matter. Will the
same keyboard layout also be appropriate for use as a small
computer in Linux mode? Will the production model have a QWERTY
layout plus numeric keypad and function keys, or will the layout
be more like the 48/49 series calculators?
I think the acceptance of Linux depends a lot on whether it's the
command line "console" mode user interface or with a GUI. It seems
to me that these days, most computer users seem to be lost without
a mouse and GUI hieroglyphs that they can click on. But the target
market for this device may well be more accepting of a console UI
than the target market of a Zaurus is. If there's a GUI, does it
have a track ball, or even better, a pressure sensitive "mouse
pad" or "joy stick button" built-in?
I suppose that they will make it available in the USA; did you
think that they intended to market it in Australia only? I expect
that they'll try to market it to everywhere that enough money is
available to buy one. But don't expect to find it at your local
dime store. If nothing else, online ordering and international
shipping should be available.
And of course, how much of the design, physical and firmware, has
been finalised now, and when will the product be available? But
I'm not suggesting a rush to market; best to have everything right
when it first goes on the market, even if that means a delay in
putting it on the market.
And I certainly do wish Hydrix the best. If it turns out to be as
good as it ought to be, then I'll want one, even though I can't
see that I'll ever need one.
--
Regards,
James
James M. Prange
> That time of the month again?
That's out of line, even though the moon was very nearly full when
she posted. Would you speak that way to your mother?
Helen wasn't exactly gentle in her post, and her message wasn't
what I'd like to read, but it's all too likely that she'll be
correct about the product being ultimately a failure in the
marketplace.
My guess is that it will sell better than she expects, but I have
serious doubts about it being even a break-even project.
<snip>
--
Regards,
James
Tom Lake
> Qonos" may be too small of a realistic target market. It seems to
> me that I've read somewhere of an expected price in the
> neighborhood of US$350-400. That strikes me as too expensive for a
> calculator for most high-school kids, and even most college kids.
> Sure, some of us in this newsgroup may well buy one, and if the TI
> fanatics are aware of it, maybe some of them will buy one too. It
> may appeal to professional users who need an advanced calculator
> in the field. If the I/O and data-gathering capabilities are as
> good as they should be, that should expand the market to those who
> want those capabilities in a hand-held device, if they become
> aware of it. But that doesn't strike me as an especially large
> market.
If it's designed for the educational market, I won't be buying one. We
already have enough educational calculators and not enough real-world ones.
Tom Lake
Stefan
I don't want to be called a "starry-eyed kid" only because I like to
use a reliable, fast working tool which is equipped with a good
keyboard.
I think you are not able to understand someone who needs a small
calculator in everyday use.
I love the way in which the HP 49 g+ is organized and the way it does
its calculations.
I am only unlucky with the missing keys.
I tried it, but will never get familiar with a TI.
There is no necessity to manufacture only mainstream-products.
There will always be some specialized professionals who need
professional manufactured tools. Those few bucks that this tool is
more expensive than a standard-product will be returned after a short
time of use.
Greetings Stefan.
D. Turbiner
All that we get to know is popular publicity (in shcool, streets,
magazines, malls...)
But there's a huge part of specialized publicity we never have access
to.
For example, take a experimental physics magazine and you'll see on
every second page announcements of absolutely unknown products and
brands to you. (by the way everything there costs a fortune)
What I'm getting to is that if Quonos is advertised in all of these
specific communities of serious people, they will all be enlighted to
see a replacement for matlab, mathematica... on their computers.
The focus should be on quality (not meaning the product should be
ugly). The best example would be the Fluke 189. Beautifull, amazing
design but built as a rock (for a handheld multimeter 1.2 pounds is a
lot!).
By the way, I suggest to Helen to stop posting such pessimistic
opinions.
I again repeat: From far away we will not be the only buyers of qonos,
advertize it in scientific magazines and half of the science community
will have one.
Great job JYA and your group
Dimitri
"Tom Lake" <tl...@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message news:<p6vPc.7299$Qp....@twister.nyroc.rr.com>...
Jo
:
> After visiting HPCalc.org and hydrix.com about the Poject Qonos, I
> wonder if it will take off in the sectors that it is focusing.
> This scientific PDA is very similar to the Sharp Zaurus Linux PDA
> found at this website:
> http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT2134869242.html Sharp had
> minimal success with the Zaurus primarily because of the Linux OS.
> Another feature that users didn't like was the hidden kay pad.
>
> I am excited for the Qonos release to see the final prodoct and to
> test one in my hands (that is if it is available in the US). I
> know that the pictures are just prototypes. Maybe the hardware
> could be designed more after the Casio Classpad 300?
>
> Anyway, I am excited for it's initial release, and will definitely
> play around with one if I get the opportunity. Who knows, I may
> even purchase one. BTW- what is the projected price of the unit?
> I hope it does well, and I wish the design team the best of luck.
>
>
Humility.
Perhaps if a startup would offer a basicly simple Calculator
I would belive that they could produce an advanced calculator.
Jo
Helen
> I think you are not able to understand someone who needs a small
> calculator in everyday use.
Why would you think that? I happen to use a small calculator most
everyday, too.
> I love the way in which the HP 49 g+ is organized and the way it does
> its calculations.
I agree that there are things to like about that calculator, mostly
ones that were inherited from the HP48-series.
> I am only unlucky with the missing keys.
On the other hand, selling such a device with a half-broken keyboard
interface is unacceptable.
> I tried it, but will never get familiar with a TI.
I can relate to that. I find the form factor of the Voyager 200
awkward, and the keyboard layout of the TI 89 is a plain desaster.
> There is no necessity to manufacture only mainstream-products.
Of course not. I never said there was.
> There will always be some specialized professionals who need
> professional manufactured tools.
While true, that is an empty generality. You would have to explain how
that applies to the product in question. As I have explained before,
the market for a device like the one described on the Hydric web site
seems to be vanishingly small.
> Those few bucks that this tool is more expensive than a standard-product
> will be returned after a short time of use.
"Few bucks"? We are talking about a markup of roughly a factor of
three over your standard high-end graphical calculator. According to
what you say above, you are willing to pay this for nothing more than
a keyboard that actually works, while still getting a calculator that
emulates one that you know and like. That is all nice and well, and
you are of course free to spend your money in whichever way you like,
but you should not expect to have many fellow-buyers. The market you
define seems to be one of current HP 49G+ users (a tiny, tiny group
right there) who are unhappy with the lousy keyboard of that
calculator (well, ok, that would be a very significant fraction of
that group), and who are willing to pay something like $400 to have
the keyboard fixed (hard to tell what the fraction of those is, but I
doubt there are too many of those).
-- Helen.
Helen
> But there's a huge part of specialized publicity we never have access
> to.
What do you mean by "we never have access to"? The magazines you
mention are freely available.
> For example, take a experimental physics magazine and you'll see on
> every second page announcements of absolutely unknown products and
> brands to you. (by the way everything there costs a fortune)
So? I happen to be a physicist, and know the magazines and products
you are talking about. They are not calculators, none of them.
> What I'm getting to is that if Quonos is advertised in all of these
> specific communities of serious people, they will all be enlighted to
> see a replacement for matlab, mathematica... on their computers.
Now this is naive beyond belief. Being a member of these "communities
of serious people" I can tell you right here and now that I have no
professional interest whatsoever in the kind of toy that seems to be
the Quonos. In particular, these "communities of serious people" are
"enlightened" enough to actually know their Matlab or Mathematica, in
stark contrast to somebody who is capable of the completely ridiculous
belief that you could design a "replacement" (!) for these computing
environments on a dinky little calculator. I'll just note that that is
a patently silly idea, which can only be advanced by someone who has
never used any of the systems in question.
> The focus should be on quality
[Laughing...] It better be if you are trying to get people to give you
a couple of hundred dollars for a calculator.
> By the way, I suggest to Helen to stop posting such pessimistic
> opinions.
Ah, do you, really? Why?
> I again repeat: From far away we will not be the only buyers of qonos,
> advertize it in scientific magazines and half of the science community
> will have one.
On what do you base this startling prediction? What do you know about
the "science community"? I happen to know a bit about it, and I can't
see much interest in a device like that. It's just a calculator, after
all. Just about nobody will be interested in the fact that it runs
both an HP49 and a TI89 in emulation (which is a "design feature", by
the way, the legality of which I very seriously doubt; I would be very
surprised indeed if TI's legal department didn't have a word or two to
say about this). So it has a serial interface for data collection?
Well, my experimentalist friends happen to do their data collection
with various types of PC boards, typically in stationary computers.
When field work is involved, then laptops serve nicely, thank you. In
particular, sufficient data processing and storage capacity is readily
available on the laptops, including powerful analysis tools. If size
is indeed an issue, there are outfits that sell pocket-sized PCs
running full-fledged operating systems (Linux or Windows XP) if that
is what you absolutely need. If you study the magazines you mentioned
above, you will readily find them. In my whole life I have never seen
or heard of any of my friends or colleagues using, or wanting to use,
a pocket calculator for their experimental work (well, other than
quickly punching in a few numbers to get a result, something a
$15-calculator will do to their full satisfaction).
Now, mind you, that I have not ever seen an application for such a
device does not mean there is none. I am sure there are a few people,
probably hundreds, who would indeed buy a Quonos if it is available.
However, in terms of a viable market for a commercial product I just
cannot see that group generating the needed volume.
-- Helen.
Steen Schmidt
> advertize it in scientific magazines and half of the science community
> will have one.
I sincerely doubt that. I for one am not happy with the keyboard of the
HP49G+, and will not, ever, shell out one single dollar to get it fixed. It
should work from the start, which it unfortunately didn't. I'm already not
buying any HP products, except calculators - that last group may suffer the
same fate if HP keeps up this sort of "quality" (HP49G/G+). As of late it
seems Agilent is going a bit the same way unfortunately (not quality wise,
but customer service) - I have now waited since april on an Agilent 3458A
DMM, and the factory still can't give me a delivery date. I'm about to
cancel my order and buy a Keithley 2002 instead. I often purchase Agilent
scopes, waveform generators, DMMs and so on, but other suppliers can easily
fill that gap - aforementioned Keithley, Tektronix, Fluke and LeCroy to name
a few.
All this to just say that I wouldn't buy a product like the Qonos to simply
replace an else defective product I already own - it would be because it
fills a gap until now left open, or because it saved me money or time. I own
an iPAQ because it's a very inexpensive way to get a GPS *and* a universal
remote for my HiFi/Projector setup - the pocket PC functionality is a "free"
bonus for me, not the reason I purchased it.
And to clearify - a handheld product can't *replace* Mathematica or Maple
for a scientist. It can be good at field sampling of data(*) for instance,
but the number crunching, report generation, programming and so on belongs
on a Workstation or Mainframe. A handheld tool is great for education too,
but at that the Qonos is simply too expensive. Let's see what the complete
package contain.
(*) You can get a Fluke 189 for less than a Qonos, and then you have a
complete true RMS DMM of decent quality to boot.
Regards
Steen
Stefan
> > I think you are not able to understand someone who needs a small
> > calculator in everyday use.
>
> Why would you think that? I happen to use a small calculator most
> everyday, too.
>
When I read your postings it seems to me that you mostly use a "real"
computer. this is because i hear your arguments mostly from people who
don't use a small calc really regularely.
> > I am only unlucky with the missing keys.
>
> On the other hand, selling such a device with a half-broken keyboard
> interface is unacceptable.
>
I agree, but it seems to me that HP is not able to produce a good
working keyboard to the actual prices.
> > There will always be some specialized professionals who need
> > professional manufactured tools.
>
> While true, that is an empty generality. You would have to explain how
> that applies to the product in question.
I don't think that it's empty. What I would like to say is that there
is always a small maket for specialiced produkts like the surveyors
who need excellent optical instruments and so on. There are produced
only few pieces and therefore the price is high.
But those people work with those instruments more economic and save
money compared to the usage of a cheaper product.
>As I have explained before,
> the market for a device like the one described on the Hydric web site
> seems to be vanishingly small.
>
> > Those few bucks that this tool is more expensive than a standard-product
> > will be returned after a short time of use.
>
> "Few bucks"? We are talking about a markup of roughly a factor of
> three over your standard high-end graphical calculator. According to
> what you say above, you are willing to pay this for nothing more than
> a keyboard that actually works
Yes I do!
When I bought my first HP 48SX I paid about 350$. I didn't regret one
of them because this machine worked fine and reliable.
I think 350$ for a really good working everyday-tool is not too much.
>, while still getting a calculator that emulates one that you know
and like.
If I understand it in the right way qounos will be able to emulate
future calculators too.
>That is all nice and well, and
> you are of course free to spend your money in whichever way you like,
> but you should not expect to have many fellow-buyers.
I don't expect many. At least in Europe there seem to be only few
people who like to use a RPN calculator.
At the college (architecture an civil engineering) where I am din't
buy any of the new student a HP in the last year. Most bought a TI and
some the Classpad.
And 95 % of them don't use more than 5% of the abilities of the calc.
>The market you
> define seems to be one of current HP 49G+ users (a tiny, tiny group
> right there) who are unhappy with the lousy keyboard of that
> calculator (well, ok, that would be a very significant fraction of
> that group), and who are willing to pay something like $400 to have
> the keyboard fixed (hard to tell what the fraction of those is, but I
> doubt there are too many of those).
>
> -- Helen.
Sad, but true
Greetings Stefan
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
news:3e20dad3.04080...@posting.google.com...
> Hello Helen,
Oh, "she's" back?!
Hmmm....I may need to adjust my filters if there is anything else
but general bashing and whyning...
X
> >The market you
> > define seems to be one of current HP 49G+ users (a tiny, tiny group
> > right there) who are unhappy with the lousy keyboard of that
> > calculator (well, ok, that would be a very significant fraction of
> > that group), and who are willing to pay something like $400 to have
> > the keyboard fixed (hard to tell what the fraction of those is, but I
> > doubt there are too many of those).
> >
> > -- Helen.
>
> Sad, but true
>
> Greetings Stefan
It is certainly not targeted to HP users only
When it has other math tools it may gather other type of users
Since you can fold the keyboard it will be smaller.
Because there is a PDA software base and other tools
AND because it is Linux, I expect a lot of other uses besides
using it as a fast HP 49G emulator
There is also the sledge for lab, etc usage
The future will show who is right in his predictions.
[VPN]
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
news:izqPc.997$zC1...@fe39.usenetserver.com...
> Aaron Toponce wrote:
X
> How much extra will accessories such as the sled and probes cost?
Guess: 150 euros?
> Does the sled have any stand-alone data gathering capability, or
> is it useful only when the calculator (or whatever we call it) is
> attached?
Guess (easier): Only when attached to the "mainframe"
> How portable will the sled be? Can I use the sled on battery power
> only for a reasonable length of time, or will I have to find
> somewhere to plug it in frequently?
Since the sledge has it's own 3000mAh Lion battery
You don't need mains power for a full working day
Note that Intel CPU was selected for it's low power capabilities
and that the B/W screen was chosen instead of a a color LCD
all because of interest to an extended battery life.
That is surely one of the strongest selling points:
The batteries will last for a long full day (or even a weekend)
> Speaking of power, will the charger/adapter be a design suitable
> for "world-wide" voltages and frequencies? That is (I think),
> about 100-240V 50-60Hz. What about the various AC power plug
> designs?
Buy an adapter set.
> Will an adapter for 12V DC vehicle power be available?
Hmmm....sounds like a 3rd party product
> Are the power connections to the device and sled AC or DC? Or even
> AC/DC (like the HP 82240 printers)?
>
> Are the power regulation, filtering, and charging circuits
> built-in to the device and sled, or are they in the power adapter?
>
> Are the batteries a design that's widely used and available and
> that we can expect to be remain available for a long time? I
> wouldn't want to find that the battery is custom-designed for this
> device and already obsolete and unavailable the first time that I
> needed to replace it.
>
> At the expected price, I wouldn't consider this to be a disposable
> product; it should work for a very long time.
>
> What about outdoor use? I wouldn't expect it to be capable of
> being used under water, but hopefully reasonably tolerant of fog,
> drizzle, dust, and outdoor ambient temperatures.
X
It does not seem to have any special outdoors ruggerized shell.
If it rains, don't just stand catching cold - use an umbrella!
It remains to be seen if the product is truly finished
when it hits the marked.
One of the selling points could be:
This is how good we are without a major company
Come and buy us out as your development/reseacrh division...
[VPN]
Warning: opinions ONLY !!!
reth
one thing i know for sure is that the world goes up and ahead because of
people like JYA and doesn't stay still because people like helen
"Veli-Pekka Nousiainen" <DROP...@MAIL.welho.com> wrote in message
news:cf2mg6$k4f$1...@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi...
D. Turbiner
will discourage JYA, his team and, as Reth says, the people that keep
this group alive.
I think it's sad that you're banning qonos and hp because economical
reasons. It is also sad that all the world runs on economy and
commerce (that's why our low quality plastics in the g+).
There are very few companies that still manufacture high quality
products.
For our hobby, there will be (is already) one - hydrix. Don't kill
with your greyness what may be the only people that will keep flowing
our calc hobby.
I really hope JYA and hydrix will not focus that much on economics (as
hp did) and I still repeat that the sientific community will buy them.
I'm sorry for my poor language and ideas expression; I'm just a 16year
old kid. The scientific community I'm dealing with and talking about
are the folks at MIT, the physics department, and my father physicist.
Dimitri
"reth" <re...@nospam.com.at> wrote in message news:<4114e592$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au>...
D. Turbiner
"reth" <re...@nospam.com.at> wrote in message news:<4114e592$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au>...
Steen Schmidt
I doubt that pessimism will kill Helen.
> and the worst of all
> will discourage JYA, his team and, as Reth says, the people that keep
> this group alive.
Hydrix wouldn't be discouraged by such remarks, since Qonos is undoubtedly
backed by a business plan - as are all product developments. Remarks on
c.s.hp48 will probably mean next to nothing in that regard.
> I think it's sad that you're banning qonos and hp because economical
> reasons.
HP has nothing to do with, or I suspect in common with, Qonos nor Hydrix.
> It is also sad that all the world runs on economy and
> commerce (that's why our low quality plastics in the g+).
Not true. I have paid almost exactly the same amount for my HP49G+ as I did
for my HP48GX years back. There is no excuse for the poor quality of the
HP49G and 49G+. It's simply sloppy development, which surprises me even from
HP.
> There are very few companies that still manufacture high quality
> products.
There are *many* companies that still manufacture quality products. Most of
these also manufacture crappy products, but HP49G hardware and G+ keyboard
is beyond crappy. Is all out indecent.
> I really hope JYA and hydrix will not focus that much on economics (as
> hp did)
All companies will have to focus mainly on economics - they are in the
business of making money, everything else is secondary.
> The scientific community I'm dealing with and talking about
> are the folks at MIT, the physics department, and my father physicist.
I can't see why the physicists at MIT should buy the Qonos (the obvious
exception are the few tech-freaks, but that isn't limited to MIT). The Qonos
does not, as far as I can see, deliver anything that can't be bought today.
It's a specialized package, but as most handheld equipment it would probably
be best targeted at the educational area, but for that it's too expensive,
except as lab-equipment bought by the labs themselves,
It's hard to comment further without seeing the finalized product, but just
because you think it's cool, that doesn't automatically translate into half
of the science community in the world wanting one. As a professionel
engineer, I and everyone I can think of in my field, are focused on mainly
one thing at the end of the day - what can we throw money at to get our jobs
done faster? It's not the Qonos...
Regards
Steen
rcobo
am probably as guilty of making them as anybody else :)
this is where i see Quonos will be salivable (and salable too) at:
1 it runs in a platform (linux) with the highest number of scientific
software developt in theworld! the problem is that not many people
know about it :(
take a look here:
http://freshmeat.net/browse/18/
actually, this is a more relistic link :) (programs that have already
been ported- but there are more):
http://www.killefiz.de/zaurus/
in the first link, there are 2217 scientific and engineering programs.
not all will run in Quonos but the most important ones will (and the
other ones will have the potential to be). for example in engineering,
some are compatible with matlab (syntax) like the program octave (that
has already been ported to the arm-platform). there are all kind of
math programs for justabout anything. another )unpopular though)
example -bioinformatics (a dime a dozen of knoppix CDs).
2 just about all these programs are royalty free to use and modify
(they come with source code).
3 Quonos is the only PDA with scientific keyboard built in. hey, that
will attract some of us :)
4 it will be actually a graphic calculator too! just in case you
forget yours at home !!
5 it will be perfect for parisse CAS :)
6 whatever else you want it to be (maybe the army buys 2000000 of
them). if you want, you can program it to be anything you want. even
if you get stack in an island, you will have C++ compiler inside :)
7 it has free and good quality host and target compiler available
(gcc-arm)
(8 it can also be targeted it for programmers since it has a java,
C++/C, etc compilers)
(9 it is the only scientific PDA in its calss)
now the hard points i see but that can be worked out:
1 most important: it needs to have a very good marketing strategy (for
example if they can make it to run some salivable:) software that some
people are already familiar with and need, they may consider buying
just for the software alone. maybe they could find out what type of
software will make it more salable (which i think will involve
educating people). and since it run linux, the sky is the limit. the
zaurus marketing was really terrible and still is. i think Quonos can
be called a 'scientific PDA' they need to know how the scientific pda
can be used (find software & applications) so that it can be marketed
more effectively from the start.
2 the hardware needs to be of good quality (i recommend seeing Juran's
books on quality. ie. 'Juran on quality by design'). product
deficiencies impact cost. product features impact sales.
3 it will be somewhat harder to use than another PDA because it will
be more complex and flexible, so good documentation will be needed.
4 needs to attract a good community developers to smooth out things
and expand the software base. without people involved ... actually, i
think this is a good thing. try to make customers involved in the game
:)
ok that was enough generalities for today :)
greetings
Steen Schmidt
> software developt in theworld! the problem is that not many people
> know about it :(
I know, but why did HP dump the Calypso (or Jonada X25)?
Linux is fine, but I hope that the OS isn't done in Java!
Regards
Steen
reth
please clarify that. HP knows how to make high quality keyboards for
calculators better than anyone else.
btw I apologize for what I said to you once - you've done great stuff
Regards
"Steen Schmidt" <ssch...@nospam.dk> wrote in message
news:lscRc.4239$up....@news.get2net.dk...
Steen Schmidt
> please clarify that. HP knows how to make high quality keyboards for
> calculators better than anyone else.
But they aren't doing it currently, that's even worse :-)
By sloppy development, I mean neither the hardware nor the software was even
close to gold when the HP49G was released. The latest release ROM (v1.18) is
still very buggy, and the numerous hardware limitations were once considered
faults by HP - now it's more like HP standard.
The quality of the keyboard on the HP49G+ is also disappointing - it's the
numero uno bad thing about the 49G+ as the rest seems great (both hw and
sw). Even though the hardware may be manufactured, and perhaps even
designed, at Kinpo, the design is still acknowledged by HP and final quality
control is HP responsibility too. No quality issue can be the fault of a
sub-contractor. HP from, say, 1970 would never have released products so
immature. The HP49G was even discontinued before being finalized - HP
probably realized that they could never make up for its shortcomings with
software (and they sacked the developers before they could get the thing
done). The next best thing would be if HP had made some kind of trade-in
program with the HP49G to a HP49G+.
> btw I apologize for what I said to you once - you've done great stuff
Thx, but don't worry about it - I don't carry a grudge, but can
unfortunately get worked up in a heated debate sometimes :-)
Regards
Steen
reth
I just can't imagine how come the hp48 keyboard was perfect and why that had
to be changed? too expensive??? I don't think so
Anyway I'll newer (neither my company) bue anything from HP
cheersnews:7nmRc.2043$287....@news.get2net.dk...
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
> thanks, Steen
> I just can't imagine how come the hp48 keyboard was perfect and why that
had
> to be changed? too expensive??? I don't think so
> Anyway I'll newer (neither my company) bue anything from HP
> cheers
> "Steen Schmidt" <ssch...@nospam.dk> wrote in message
> news:7nmRc.2043$287....@news.get2net.dk...
My educated guess is:
Manufacturing of many of the major parts (if not all) are discontinued.
You just have to pick up what is available on the market today.
[VPN]
Chaos Master
<639cb51.04080...@posting.google.com>:
> i don't know where all these generalizations come from :) although i
> am probably as guilty of making them as anybody else :)
>
> this is where i see Quonos will be salivable (and salable too) at:
>
> 1 it runs in a platform (linux) with the highest number of scientific
> software developt in theworld! the problem is that not many people
> know about it :(
It would be interesting to have a Linux-based calculator.
Add networking/X/some light window manager/(Mozilla/Opera) and you have a
browser in your calculator.
Even more cool would be a big LCD display (make it like a small notebook
computer).
[]s
Chaos Master
<MPG.1b80d2095...@news.individual.net>:
> It would be interesting to have a Linux-based calculator.
> Add networking/X/some light window manager/(Mozilla/Opera) and you have a
> browser in your calculator.
>
> Even more cool would be a big LCD display (make it like a small notebook
> computer).
And I just remembered:
There is the Minimo project from Mozilla, that is exactly this: to make a
browser for small application.
[]s
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
news:MPG.1b80d29db...@news.individual.net...
it could be considered subsubnotebook (good for submarine usage)
The calculatrice mode (perhaps 80 or 100 MHz) may not have all
the bells and whistles of the "desktop" eg. PDA mode,
the PDA will surely allow browsing
With a suitable Linux driver a WiFi card could be plugged in
and you can browse web in your pocket....wirelessly
[VPN]
manjo
trough SD and USB port
-similar to PDA devices
Ill be glad to see the qonos released, and hope for their success,
BUT, if qonos will run G+ and TI emulators there is no point in waiting,
qonos will not introduce new technologies nor conceopts, it will simply
merge 2 existing devices in to one by means of emulation. And it will
inherit all properties to keep the highest possible level of emulation.
Because the technology advance (software development and useful concepts)
on G+ sceene will still depend on you guyz here: Al, Steen, VPN and other
people i don't even know
or have trouble pronouncing their names :-)
HOWEVER Let's hope Qonos WILL bring back higher level of quality for the
final product.
manjo
(dedicated to HP enthusiasts and fans)
"Veli-Pekka Nousiainen" <DROP...@MAIL.welho.com> wrote in message
news:cf7htm$859$1...@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi...
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
"manjo" <not-avail...@rocketmail.com> wrote in message
news:cf7kaf$a2b$1...@ls219.htnet.hr...
> Most of these features are already aplicable on G+
> trough SD and USB port
> -similar to PDA devices
>
> Ill be glad to see the qonos released, and hope for their success,
> BUT, if qonos will run G+ and TI emulators there is no point in waiting,
> qonos will not introduce new technologies nor conceopts, it will simply
> merge 2 existing devices in to one by means of emulation. And it will
> inherit all properties to keep the highest possible level of emulation.
quote from www.hpcalc.org:
Other software:
Emulation of both the HP 49G and the TI-89
Advanced math software: Gnuplot, Giac/Xcas (supposedly better than Maple),
MathsExplorer
PDA software: calendar, tasks, notes, time management
Datalogging capabilities
[Frère-Pierre]
manjo
...so you say it will actualy be HP49G (not G+)
this means that 49G+ will keep a separate market,
because of ARM programming, different hardware etc..
which might be incompatible with Qonos hardware and emulators !?
I hope Qonos will not turn out to be: more-less standard PDA (pda
functionality and math software) with caluclator-like keyboard.
Still a lot of great software of 49G+ wouldn't run -unless they decide to
add that tiny little + (plus) to HP emulator
:-)
trying to be a part of both markets is great idea, but i suspect TI vs HP
is like once SPECTRUM vs C64 and market will stay with their respecive
favorites.
Qonos will not be able to replace HP49G+ (or TI) for a real enthusiast who
goes realy deep down to the machine level and will want to talk to hardware
directly. I feel like the one of those who will rather buy separate unit.
manjo
"Veli-Pekka Nousiainen" <DROP...@MAIL.welho.com> wrote in message
news:cf7lqh$a21$1...@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi...
James M. Prange
> Hi Veli-Pekka,
> ....so you say it will actualy be HP49G (not G+)
> this means that 49G+ will keep a separate market,
> because of ARM programming, different hardware etc..
> which might be incompatible with Qonos hardware and emulators !?
>
> I hope Qonos will not turn out to be: more-less standard PDA (pda
> functionality and math software) with caluclator-like keyboard.
> Still a lot of great software of 49G+ wouldn't run -unless they decide to
> add that tiny little + (plus) to HP emulator
> :-)
I suppose that the alternative would be to emulate the Saturn on
an ARM emulated on the XScale. That would be "interesting".
As far as I've noticed, the 49g+ doesn't have any new *UserRPL*
commands over the 49G, and I expect that Jean-Yves will be able to
do any bug fixes required on the 49G ROM. Well, except perhaps the
broken XON/XOFF. ;-) The 49G emulated on the "Qonos" may well be
more bug-free than the 49g+.
> trying to be a part of both markets is great idea, but i suspect TI vs HP
> is like once SPECTRUM vs C64 and market will stay with their respecive
> favorites.
Well, I'm certainly not about to put up with any algebraic
calculator. If I did get a "Qonos", I'd do my best to ignore the
emulated TI, just as I do the ALG mode in the 49 series.
> Qonos will not be able to replace HP49G+ (or TI) for a real enthusiast who
> goes realy deep down to the machine level and will want to talk to hardware
> directly.
How so? The hardware will be different, but I suppose that anyone
interested could have fun discovering how to do it, just as
they're currently doing with the 49g+, and with many calculators
before, for that matter.
<snip>
--
Regards,
James
James M. Prange
> Humility.
>
> Perhaps if a startup would offer a basicly simple Calculator
> I would belive that they could produce an advanced calculator.
A good idea. I'd like a low-cost "shirt-pocket" sized (Voyager
series sized, at the most) RPN calculator. The only ones in
current production are the 12C, 12c platinum, and maybe the
17bII+. But those aren't exactly "low-cost", and all three are
"financial" models. I'd prefer "scientific" models. A very
low-cost, very basic "four-banger" RPN model would be very
welcome. But whether this would be economically feasible for
Hydrix, I don't know.
--
Regards,
James
James M. Prange
<snip>
> quote from www.hpcalc.org:
> Other software:
> Emulation of both the HP 49G and the TI-89
> Advanced math software: Gnuplot, Giac/Xcas (supposedly better than Maple),
> MathsExplorer
> PDA software: calendar, tasks, notes, time management
> Datalogging capabilities
Plus:
Keyboard with tactile feedback designed for fast, accurate data
entry (Let's hope that Hydrix understands the concept better than
HP seems to.)
and with the sled:
Vernier probe compatible
8 analog I/O channels
16 digital/sonic I/O channels
Extra high-capacity lithium ion battery
DB-9 serial port (I hope that really means 9-wire serial port. I
hope for software flow control as well.)
These are the things that I think could really be the strongest
selling points.
Of course, versatility should be a strong selling point, as long
as all of it works well.
--
Regards,
James
manjo
let's assume ARM9 will be emulated and Saturn up on it,
it will all work nicely if they go for 100% emulation
currently Saturn is amulated in the 49G+ (as we all know) but
screen updates, beeper and similar features are not updasted real time
-the emulation is not 100% result: we have functional units, but we lost
some features based on fast hardware programming switching, tweaking and so
on :)
Therefore Qonos migt turn out to be in a separate class (if they don't go
for 100%)
but on the other hand they might produce a very well 49G, then, with time,
once they manage the ARM emulation which i agree will be interesting to see
they might get 49G+ which would actualy be better than current 49G+
firmware.
Let's hope HP decides to release a ROM update with better 49G compatibility.
if 49G+ had just a bit more pixels it would be peace of cake to emulate TI.
You could load apropriate ROM and enjoy your favorite calc.
(i know keyboard would be different -but this is about how it's gonna be on
Qonos)
manjo
"James M. Prange" <jmpr...@i-is.com> wrote in message
news:An4Sc.1288$Tn6...@fe39.usenetserver.com...
James M. Prange
> Yes, i agree cracking it will be as much fun, but
> let's assume ARM9 will be emulated and Saturn up on it,
>
> it will all work nicely if they go for 100% emulation
> currently Saturn is amulated in the 49G+ (as we all know) but
> screen updates, beeper and similar features are not updasted real time
Perhaps most of these are best considered to be bugs?
> -the emulation is not 100% result: we have functional units, but we lost
> some features based on fast hardware programming switching, tweaking and so
> on :)
I'm not at all sure that 100% emulation was intended to be any
deeper than UserRPL, if even that. Note that SysRPL entry points
were moved and new (or changed) UserRPL and SysRPL commands were
added in each model change from 28C to 28S to 48SX to 48GX to 49G,
and at least sometimes even in revisions of the 49G ROM. Why
should we expect the change from 49G to 49g+ to be so much
different? Or from the 49G to the 49G emulation on the Qonos, for
that matter?
I'd prefer that no attempt is made to emulate the bugs new to the
49g+; any left over from the 49G would be enough.
I do hope that a ROM improved from 1.19-6 can be used.
> Therefore Qonos migt turn out to be in a separate class (if they don't go
> for 100%)
> but on the other hand they might produce a very well 49G, then, with time,
> once they manage the ARM emulation which i agree will be interesting to see
> they might get 49G+ which would actualy be better than current 49G+
> firmware.
You mean that they should emulate the ARM hardware too? Why on
earth would they want to do that? It seems to me that another
layer of emulation would slow things down, use up more memory, and
present yet more opportunities for bugs. I suppose that it would
give the hackers more things to play with, but for ordinary users,
remember that "May you live in interesting times." is supposed to
be a curse.
And I think that Hydrix might have a bit of a legal problem if
they tried to distribute the 49g+ ROM image without HP's
permission. But of course, HP would have a bit of a problem trying
to stop 49g+ owners from using a ROM image that they just happened
to have available, if someone came up with a way of loading it.
Maybe they should simply provide emulation software for every
processor ever made?
Of course, feel free to emulate the ARM (or any other) hardware
yourself.
New 49g+ features that I'd consider worth emulating on the Qonos:
USB and IrDA, but with proper handshaking before printing and
XMIT, and proper flow control, and a reasonable range for the
IrDA.
The larger screen, but able to use the full screen height
better. But the last that I read about it, the Qonos is already
supposed to have more pixels in both directions. I hope that
Hydrix plans to put all of those pixels to good use in the HP
calculator emulation mode. But maybe each calculator pixel will
be displayed as a 2X2 square on the Qonos?
48 series features missing from the 49g+ worth emulating:
RS-232 compatible I/O, including software flow control.
"Serial IR" I/O, compatible with the 48 series.
"Red-Eye" IR (for 82240 compatible printers) restored to a
reasonable range.
I expect that Veli-Pekka would add some more....
Come to think of it, the Hydrix site says "HP48/49G", so maybe
we'll have our choice of 48SX, 48GX, or 49G. :-)
But hey, what about the 28 series? I wonder whether the emulated
Saturn is close enough to the Lewis to run a 28 series ROM image.
> Let's hope HP decides to release a ROM update with better 49G compatibility.
I'm hoping for a new ROM release too, although I've begun to
wonder whether they've already abandoned the 49g+ to work on the
next model. And I suppose that the "in-house" HP calculator R&D
team is now too few to continue development on his own time.
> if 49G+ had just a bit more pixels it would be peace of cake to emulate TI.
Emulate TI on a 49g+? You're joking, right? That horrible ALG mode
on the 49 series already emulates TI far more that I'd prefer.
> You could load apropriate ROM and enjoy your favorite calc.
I'd consider an RPL-only ROM to be appropriate, but some people
seem to have minds that work differently from mine.
> (i know keyboard would be different -but this is about how it's gonna be on
> Qonos)
I hope for a nice big centrally located ENTER key. The TI users
can have a little = key out on a corner.
<snip>
--
Regards,
James
Chaos Master
<cf7htm$859$1...@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi>, at group comp.sys.hp48, on the date of Mon,
9 Aug 2004 12:59:41 +0300:
[Qonos (sp?)]
> Since Qonos has a 320x240 LCD (maybe 16 grayscale for TinyX)
> it could be considered subsubnotebook (good for submarine usage)
> The calculatrice mode (perhaps 80 or 100 MHz) may not have all
> the bells and whistles of the "desktop" eg. PDA mode,
> the PDA will surely allow browsing
> With a suitable Linux driver a WiFi card could be plugged in
> and you can browse web in your pocket....wirelessly
It will be good enough for browsing, considering that Pocket PC's have 240x320
browser and run Internet Explorer. Add either WiFi or a card (PCMCIA) slot for
a normal network card/56k modem, and it can be used to browse the Internet, or
to add a hard drive.
[]s
--
Chaos Master®, posting from Brazil. REPLY TO GROUP!
MSN: wizard_of_yendor[@]hotmail[.]com http://marreka.no-ip.com
"The modern stereotypes are Yamaha, Sony, Aiwa, Pioneer, Technics..."
Chaos Master
<MPG.1b835797...@news.individual.net>, at group comp.sys.hp48, on the
date of Wed, 11 Aug 2004 00:19:21 -0300:
[Qonos]
> It will be good enough for browsing, considering that Pocket PC's have 240x320
> browser and run Internet Explorer. Add either WiFi or a card (PCMCIA) slot for
^^^^^^^ make this "display"
--
Chaos Master®, posting from Brazil. REPLY TO GROUP!
MSN: wizard_of_yendor[@]hotmail[.]com http://marreka.no-ip.com
Powered by chaos. Chaos. CHAOS. ©|-|405.
manjo
yes i am aware of how complex the ARM chip realy is: and i am aware that
it's not much about 920T core
it is all the additional blocks of hardware around it: LCD controller, DMA,
Timers etc...
BUT if hydrix want's to have a product comparable with 49G+ they MUST go
that way, because all software
which will be written for ARM environment of 49G+ will not work on Qonos. In
fact you would buy the latest product of calc. industry, jet have the
product which is one generation behind, despite the fact that it might have
superior hardware.
Powerfull ARM software is to come, and hit hard. Games, addons,
hardware-oriented software like drivers for USB hardware etc even
alternative ROM's. The analog inputs and outputs they all hope for in Qonos
can be made as a little USB dongle, with right software -it will work greay,
you may even plug a USB 5.1 Sound Blaster to it :-)
don't laugh -EVERYTHING is possible !!!
about display:
in my opinion the whole idea of having an emulator is to be compatible with
real-life unit,
use of larger display in qonos, will be very nice and a thing a thing to be
welcome, BUT
it WON'T be compatible.
A good solution would be: introducing a FLAG (or mode setting) which would
determine how would you like to use the display. in a comatible or
incompatible manner, but this will actualy be a splitting point.
There will be software for big screen and software for small screen.
Once again -you're absolutely right (about ROM copyright)
-they may hit the wall when HP and TI realizes that this unit actualy
motivates people to copy their ROM and break the copyright law.
manjo
"James M. Prange" <jmpr...@i-is.com> wrote in message
news:cfbag0$o3h$1...@newsreader.mailgate.org...
Al Borowski
Hi,
I think JYA has said that the 49g only is being emulated only. This
makes sense because the 49g+ would probably be too slow - you would have
2 layers of emulation. Why bother, when you can emulate the saturn directly?
> BUT if hydrix want's to have a product comparable with 49G+
Why would they? Emulating the 49g would give a much faster result.
Emulating the entire SoC would be a big task - what is the payoff?
>
they MUST go
> that way, because all software
> which will be written for ARM environment of 49G+ will not work on Qonos.
...
> Powerfull ARM software is to come, and hit hard. Games, addons,
> hardware-oriented software like drivers for USB hardware etc even
> alternative ROM's.
Really? Its been months since people could write this software. What has
come of it? Almost nothing. I don't think there has been a single proper
application written in ARM. No games either.
Maybe if HP had released some technical information with the
introduction of the 49g+, you would have many programs by now. HP's
offical policy seems to be "we don't care about 3rd party development".
Look at TI on the other hand.
http://education.ti.com/us/resources/developer/overview.html
http://education.ti.com/us/resources/developer/8992/hilight/hilight.html
No one is asking for a complete SDK. Even providing a decent memory map
+ docs on the new emulated Saturn instructions would be a great help.
Such information is already sitting on a harddrive somewhere. I can't
see how it would hurt them to give it out.
Al
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
EDITED BY VPN
Hello,
yes i am aware of how complex the Intel chip really is:
and I'm aware that it's not just the core ship
it is all the additional blocks of hardware around it: LCD controller, DMA,
Timers etc...
BUT <- only VPN is allowed to use capital BUT, it's a trademark (-;
if HP want's to have a product comparable with Qonos they MUST
release the ARM interfaces and the memory map, because all software
which will be written for Linuxl OS of the Qonos will not work on the 49g+
In fact you would buy the latest product of calc. industry, jet have the
product which is one generation behind, despite the fact that it might have
superior hardware.
Powerfull Intel software is to come, and hit hard. Games, addons,
hardware-oriented software like drivers for USB hardware etc even
alternative ROM's. The analog inputs and outputs they all hope for in Qonos
can be also made as a little USB dongle, with right software -it will work
great,
you may even plug a USB 5.1 Sound Blaster to it :-)
don't laugh -EVERYTHING is possible with Linux community behind the Qonos!!!
HP has lost the game already!!!
The open programming environment of the Qonos will make it a hit later!!
Then the new even advanced models will come:
like color display (and only half the operating time), etc...
about display:
in my opinion the whole idea of having an emulator is to be compatible with
real-life unit,
use of larger display in HP 49g+, will be very nice and a thing a thing to
be
welcome, BUT
it WON'T be compatible with all the old software used
in other HP 48/49 calcs (including the new 49gII)
A good solution would be: introducing a FLAG (or mode setting) which would
determine how would you like to use the display. in a comatible or
incompatible manner, but this will actualy be a splitting point.
There will be software for big screen and software for small screen.
BUT
since HP will never ever do this
the only good flexible choise is the Linux based Qonos!!
[VPN] I rest my case...
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
news:4119e585$0$16343$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
>
> Hi,
>
> I think JYA has said that the 49g only is being emulated only. This
> makes sense because the 49g+ would probably be too slow - you would have
> 2 layers of emulation. Why bother, when you can emulate the saturn
directly?
>
>
> > BUT if hydrix want's to have a product comparable with 49G+
>
> Why would they? Emulating the 49g would give a much faster result.
> Emulating the entire SoC would be a big task - what is the payoff?
Adding to Al's response:
Qonos: ARM style Intel CPU emulating Saturn using 49G ROM
HP 49g+: ARM CPU emulating Saturn using a new ROM
They both are emulators!
The Qonos also has Advanced math software:
Gnuplot, Giac/Xcas (supposedly better than Maple), MathsExplorer
PDA software: calendar, tasks, notes, time management
<above clipped from www.hpcalc.org >
To my opinions the QOnos with Linux and revealed memory map
plus revealed interface for programming is a clear winner
in every possible respect
(incuding the possibility to load other ROM's to the EMU49)
[VPN]
manjo
i think i have an answer to why ARM software is not here:
the people are not familiar with ARM core and instruction set, on the other
hand a lot of people are
waiting to see a nice integration with Saturn ML and systemRPL, the other
group of people may be waiting for a nice little assembler that will compile
on the 49G+ itself -so you wouldn't need a PC, JAVA etc...
Developers (entusiasts) are waiting to see what will come out of development
tools you and other have been working on.
I admire and respect your work, however, i would realy like to see a
compiler on the HP itself.
Compiling C or assembly for ARM and then extracting it using your JAVA
program, transfering it to HP or SD card then H-> "ing" it seems like a
procedure to me.
Too much people including me are waiting for things to get a bit clearer
what are we gonna do, and where to go from here. A lot of peolpe didn't like
the mess with Saturn compilers where (once) we had several compilers using
different mnemonics and slightly different roules. I think MASD cleared that
mess, and i realy started programming SaturnML when i saw MASD and realized
that everybody has it -therefore it IS standard.
I'm currently writing a GIF decoder, (LZW) decompressor
-having little trouble with table of sequences
(i havent figured out the optimal structure to hold the sequences)
it recognises GIF87a and GIF89a formats
it reads headers, and comes to a decoding part, even reads the firs sequence
of the Image
having GIF will be nice to hold grescale pictures (nicer than GROB -smaller
and compatible with PC graphics software, plus transparency will give us
ability to produce nice sprites)
About Qonos emulation:
> BUT if hydrix want's to have a product comparable with 49G+
Why would they? Emulating the 49g would give a much faster result.
Emulating the entire SoC would be a big task - what is the payoff?
it is obviews:
49G+ is much more than emulated 49G ARM code won't work if ARM is not
emulated, in that case Qonos may be a good 49G but never G+ sysRPL is nice,
Saturn is nice as Well, but Hardware Greyscale and all nice features ARM
offers like DMA, timers, and so on won't be available or they may be
available but in that case it will turn out to be Xscale code and hardware
supported with BUSC command. Which will again be different and incompatible.
I understand the speed concerns you're talking about and i agree with you,
but in case you're describing
Qonos will be a very fast 49G but it won't be G+ (period).
manjo
"Al Borowski" <al.bo...@EraseThis.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4119e585$0$16343$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
>
manjo
> No one is asking for a complete SDK. Even providing a decent memory map
> + docs on the new emulated Saturn instructions would be a great help.
> Such information is already sitting on a harddrive somewhere. I can't
> see how it would hurt them to give it out.
I hate to be a "smart-ass" but i think i know the answer to this one:
it's always been this way, when calc is fresh released there is very little
documentation,
I bet they love to see us making conclusions and arguments about their
products as we
take their baby apart piece by piece. They are in fact learning from us. You
can be
sure that there are some employees that have nothing to do but read this
group and take notes.
Once we take it completely apart they will provide the DOCS, because they
hate to take
all the fun away from us. At the same time our talk and arguments about the
49G+ is in fact a form of advertisement the content of our arguments (good
or bad) is irelevant.
I mean a lot of people including me enjoy learning about the machine form
the first hand -exploring, hacking rather than just read the RAW INFO in
some doc right ?
When hacking and exploring is the way you learned things about it you
treasure the knowlege in a different way
and the unit iself -you actualy learn to love it almost as if it was your
invetion. This in fact is the whole point of enthusiastic hacker-like
research :-) don't you agree ?
manjo
As for the Qonos if it will be based up on Linux or similar (sophisticated)
operating system -it can very well be whatever we want it to be, so i agree
with you guys if we decide that 49G is enough for our use 49G will be
if we start whining for G+ and hydrix decides to listen and go for it -even
better :)
"manjo" <not-avail...@rocketmail.com> wrote in message
news:cfd253$s24$1...@ls219.htnet.hr...
Al Borowski
> I admire and respect your work,
Thanks, but I really haven't done that much compared to other people :)
however, i would realy like to see a
> compiler on the HP itself.
Do you mean a C compiler, or an ARM assembler?
A C compiler might be very tricky, but I'm sure an assembler is
possible. It would be a nice thing to include in a future ROM.
> Compiling C or assembly for ARM and then extracting it using your JAVA
> program, transfering it to HP or SD card then H-> "ing" it seems like a
> procedure to me.
At the moment, if you wanted to make something, you'd have to (assuming
a windows system):
1) write some C code, for instance hiworld.c
2) compile it by typing 'hpgcc hiworld hplib' (or whatever other files
you use)
3) send the resulting string to the calculator.
There is no java needed any more; I realized its a pain in the neck. I
am doing all my future work in C so the result is standard .exe files.
>
> Too much people including me are waiting for things to get a bit clearer
> what are we gonna do, and where to go from here. A lot of peolpe didn't like
> the mess with Saturn compilers where (once) we had several compilers using
> different mnemonics and slightly different roules. I think MASD cleared that
> mess, and i realy started programming SaturnML when i saw MASD and realized
> that everybody has it -therefore it IS standard.
If by 'compilers' you mean assembler, then there shouldn't be any
incompatibility. ARM mnemonics are pretty standardized.
C itself is a fairly old standard - you shouldn't have problems with
different compilers.
>
> I'm currently writing a GIF decoder, (LZW) decompressor
> -having little trouble with table of sequences
> (i havent figured out the optimal structure to hold the sequences)
> it recognises GIF87a and GIF89a formats
> it reads headers, and comes to a decoding part, even reads the firs sequence
> of the Image
>
> having GIF will be nice to hold grescale pictures (nicer than GROB -smaller
> and compatible with PC graphics software, plus transparency will give us
> ability to produce nice sprites)
This sounds like an interesting project - good luck with it.
> Why would they? Emulating the 49g would give a much faster result.
> Emulating the entire SoC would be a big task - what is the payoff?
>
> it is obviews:
> 49G+ is much more than emulated 49G ARM code won't work if ARM is not
> emulated, in that case Qonos may be a good 49G but never G+
Please look at this page:
http://lebonpoint.chez.tiscali.fr/hp49gp/emuplus.htm
"It is multi-threaded. Here, I can get 58 Mhz at least (with my intel
celeron 2,8 Ghz). "
On a 2.8 GHz celeron (a more powerful chip then the XScale) the ARM
emulator still isn't as fast as the CPU on a real 49g+ - and that
emulator doesn't simulate any peripherals. Considering the Qonos has a
"Intel PXA 263 XScale processor, running at 400 MHz", how is it supposed
to emulate the 49g+ at a reasonable speed? Even if you suppose the
emulator speed can be tripled, its still too slow for a handheld.
To me, it looks like a choice between a fast 49g (maybe 4 times as fast
as a real 049g+?), vs a very slow emulated 49g+.
Also, consider how much work would be required to make such an emulator.
There are so many peripherals built into the Samsung chip, it would be a
nightmare.
>sysRPL is nice,
> Saturn is nice as Well, but Hardware Greyscale and all nice features ARM
> offers like DMA, timers, and so on won't be available or they may be
> available but in that case it will turn out to be Xscale code and hardware
> supported with BUSC command. Which will again be different and incompatible.
But if you had a Qonos, you already have a linux system. Greyscale etc
would already be supported; you wouldn't need any of the hacks people
are doing now.
>
> I understand the speed concerns you're talking about and i agree with you,
> but in case you're describing
> Qonos will be a very fast 49G but it won't be G+ (period).
I don't see how it is feasible to emulate the 49g+ :-/
cheers,
Al
Al Borowski
> Hi again,
>
>
>>No one is asking for a complete SDK. Even providing a decent memory map
>>+ docs on the new emulated Saturn instructions would be a great help.
>>Such information is already sitting on a harddrive somewhere. I can't
>>see how it would hurt them to give it out.
>
>
> I hate to be a "smart-ass" but i think i know the answer to this one:
Don't worry, you're not being one :)
>
> it's always been this way, when calc is fresh released there is very little
> documentation,
> I bet they love to see us making conclusions and arguments about their
> products as we
> take their baby apart piece by piece. They are in fact learning from us. You
> can be
> sure that there are some employees that have nothing to do but read this
> group and take notes.
I'm sure some HP people are reading this.
>
> Once we take it completely apart they will provide the DOCS, because they
> hate to take
> all the fun away from us. At the same time our talk and arguments about the
> 49G+ is in fact a form of advertisement the content of our arguments (good
> or bad) is irelevant.
> I mean a lot of people including me enjoy learning about the machine form
> the first hand -exploring, hacking rather than just read the RAW INFO in
> some doc right ?
>
> When hacking and exploring is the way you learned things about it you
> treasure the knowlege in a different way
> and the unit iself -you actualy learn to love it almost as if it was your
> invetion. This in fact is the whole point of enthusiastic hacker-like
> research :-) don't you agree ?
No. I personally thing its very frustrating, knowing that I am
re-inventing the wheel. I've spent ages trying to figure this $%#$ing
keyboard out. I could could have spent that time making a nice program.
Also, it hurts users. As a quick example, most programs must be bloated
by carrying the complete minifont in them each time. I know theres a
'print' function somewhere already, but not how to use it.
If I find the address of this print function, there is no guarantee that
it will be stable between ROM upddates. It would be a pain trying to fix
things that break between ROM releasees.
Its also dangerous. To use the keyboard, I have to play with I/O pins.
Who knows where they are attached to? Its may be possible to cause
physical damage with a bad program.
I will give you a quote from the TI-GCC discussion board, where I asked
for some advice a while ago:
"
I advise you to search as far as possible, or ask HP, for an interface
with the non-emulated ARM OS (and a list of its functions), before
writing anything widely used... For heaven's sake, don't start a
"kernel" mess (instability, incompatibilities...) like that of the
TI-68k calculators, which persists more than six years after it began,
unless you have made sure there isn't *any* other way !
"Kernels" have interesting features AMS native ("_nostub") programs
didn't have up to TIGCC 0.95, the new linker offers interesting "kernel"
features for native use without the "kernel" drawbacks (large set of
pseudo-standard libraries, crashes all the time due to extremely dirty
hacks such as absolute addresses to system variables, etc.)
"
Al
Beto
> I hate to be a "smart-ass" but i think i know the answer to this one:
> it's always been this way, when calc is fresh released there is very little
> documentation,
> I bet they love to see us making conclusions and arguments about their
> products as we
> take their baby apart piece by piece. They are in fact learning from us. You
> can be
> sure that there are some employees that have nothing to do but read this
> group and take notes.
I'm not saying he is one of them, but remember that Cyrille was the one
who gave us (the community) the first program including arm code (a
grayscale picture of a car... his car?). He "said": "Here's a first
step, now you keep climbing this ladder".
Regards,
--
Beto
Reply: Erase between the dot (inclusive) and the @.
Responder: Borra la frase obvia y el punto previo.
Samuel Nyall Stearley
> by carrying the complete minifont in them each time. I know theres a
> 'print' function somewhere already, but not how to use it.
>
> If I find the address of this print function, there is no guarantee that
> it will be stable between ROM upddates. It would be a pain trying to fix
> things that break between ROM releasees.
But certainly there is information that you can rely on that is stable
from release to release? Then based on this information you can
create stable ways to access non suported features.
For example I wrote a program that adds auto completion to the ti89
entry line. Therefore I needed access to the TEXT_EDIT structure that
defines how the ti89 entry line behaves. So I search a supported rom
call for the use of another supported rom call. When I find the match
I subtract 4, now I have a pointer to code that contains the embedded
pointer to the TEXT_EDIT structure.
> I advise you to search as far as possible, or ask HP, for an interface
> with the non-emulated ARM OS (and a list of its functions), before
> writing anything widely used... For heaven's sake, don't start a
> "kernel" mess (instability, incompatibilities...) like that of the
> TI-68k calculators, which persists more than six years after it began,
> unless you have made sure there isn't *any* other way !
My version of 68k history is that the kernel mess is mostly the fault
of Xavier Vassor being a closed source idiot.
http://doors.ticalc.org/
Samuel Nyall Stearley
>
> http://education.ti.com/us/resources/developer/overview.html
> http://education.ti.com/us/resources/developer/8992/hilight/hilight.html
But it took ti a couple years after the ti89 release before they
released the sdk.
http://www.ticalc.org/archives/news/articles/0/8/8251.html
http://www.ticalc.org/archives/news/articles/0/9/9160.html
http://www.ticalc.org/archives/news/articles/0/9/9960.html
The response to this was the following documentation:
http://education.ti.com/us/product/tech/89/down/8992pexec.html to find
it I had to google ti's site for exec.inc, they told us how to access
the jump table, and they gave us the names of each entry of the table.
BUT they gave no information about any of the rom calls available
And in novemeber 2000 we finally got the sdk:
http://www.ticalc.org/archives/news/articles/4/43/43266.html
Al Borowski
>>Look at TI on the other hand.
>>
>>http://education.ti.com/us/resources/developer/overview.html
>>http://education.ti.com/us/resources/developer/8992/hilight/hilight.html
>
>
> But it took ti a couple years after the ti89 release before they
> released the sdk.
>
>
> http://www.ticalc.org/archives/news/articles/0/8/8251.html
> http://www.ticalc.org/archives/news/articles/0/9/9160.html
> http://www.ticalc.org/archives/news/articles/0/9/9960.html
That was quite a good effort. Unfortunatly, I doubt we could get 65
people here interested, let alone 650 :-/ (on the other hand, the HP-GCC
website has gotten almost 500 hits, and it isn't even listed on google
yet). If there was such a peteition, would anyone here sign it?
>
> The response to this was the following documentation:
> http://education.ti.com/us/product/tech/89/down/8992pexec.html to find
> it I had to google ti's site for exec.inc, they told us how to access
> the jump table, and they gave us the names of each entry of the table.
> BUT they gave no information about any of the rom calls available
I would be perfectly happy with just this for the time being :)
> And in novemeber 2000 we finally got the sdk:
>
> http://www.ticalc.org/archives/news/articles/4/43/43266.html
(from the other post)
>But certainly there is information that you can rely on that is stable
>from release to release? Then based on this information you can
>create stable ways to access non suported features.
You are probably right, but at present I don't know if anything will be
stable. To quote from the post that sparked the whole programming thing:
"Note: I have purposefully not include information on calling any of
the internal ARM subroutines contained in the calculator's ROM image.
These subroutines are generally designed to work on data from the
Saturn domain, not ARM, so they're not really suitable for use in a
user-written ARM subroutine. Also, there is no calling (trap) table,
so they must be called using absolute addressing, which will change
with every ROM release, so using them is a good way to make sure your
program crashes in the next ROM release."
thanks for the info,
Al
reth
It's obvious HP doesn't give a shit about calculators anymore. One should be
blind not to see it.
Sorry to be so pessimistic, but that's how I see it. And I'm not blind (yet)
:)
Cheers
"Al Borowski" <al.bo...@EraseThis.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:411b5a97$0$16321$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
Eric Smith
> I suppose that the alternative would be to emulate the Saturn on
> an ARM emulated on the XScale. That would be "interesting".
Huh? The XScale *is* an ARM; it is the name for the next generation
version of StrongARM. No emulation required to run ARM code.
manjo
I agree with you to some point:
> IF < Xscale is about 100% backward compatible with ARM9 especialy
Samsung version used in the G+ -there should be no problems.
BUT (wih respect to VPN) Even if it would be that easy (i'm sure it's not)
ARM
"emulator" would still be needed because the OS must be the same as on 49G+
and resorces must be remapped the same way as on 49G+.
so you see it's not about making the machine execute the code of another,
it's not about making ARM code run -it is needed to make the Xscale and
surrounding
hardware appear exactly as G+ hardware to programmer.
manjo
"Eric Smith" <eric-no-s...@brouhaha.com> wrote in message
news:qhsmasp...@ruckus.brouhaha.com...
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
> Hi Eric,
> I agree with you to some point:
> > IF < Xscale is about 100% backward compatible with ARM9 especialy
> Samsung version used in the G+ -there should be no problems.
>
> BUT (wih respect to VPN) Even if it would be that easy (i'm sure it's not)
> ARM
> "emulator" would still be needed because the OS must be the same as on
49G+
> and resorces must be remapped the same way as on 49G+.
Why on earth?
Qonos is a step forward and the 49G 8non plus) emu is enough
You may use the Qonos ARM (Intel) to do the really fast work.
The 49G and 49g+ are the same (UserRPL)
The HP 48gII also has the same structure
I still don't see why Qonos should be 49g+ compatible
I think it has a whole lot more to offer.
manjo
of course you can use ARM for realy fast work -and Xscale extensions as
well,
but not in the way you would use it on 49G+.
This fact alone is enough to conclude that it won't be G+ compatible.
I agree Qonos may have superior hardware, but older ROM 49G may make it
one generation older. I mean come on, 49G and G+ are NOT the same.
Try running ARM code on 49G ?!
You did limit compatibility in your statement to:
> The 49G and 49g+ are the same (UserRPL)
is UserRPL enough for you ?
The project i made for reading/writing SMS messages from G+
i started with highly optimized UserRPL code which took about 5 seconds
to unpack 160 characters (7 bit chars packed in to 8 bit bytes).
Cell phones do the same job without noticing the delay.
I decided i MUST do it in Saturn, becase 5 seconds is totaly unacceptable,
on the other hand knowing there must be more power in good old Saturn.
Saturn machine code does the same job in 0.04 s (about 120 times faster).
I hope we all realize what ARM can do, and the whole beauty of the ARM
architecture.
Again, i agree Qonos may be better product in both quality and hardware and
i realize
Xscale is new generation based on ARM core, however, I would consider
comparing
Qonos to 49G+, only if it will be G+ comatible. If it will be comatible only
to the Saturn
layer, with fixed 49G rom it will fall between 49G and G+. It will be like
proper 49G.
From where i stand HP has still nothing to worry about, just
keep up what they have been doing, i would however hope for
new ROM release and overall quality improvement (plastic and keyboard).
The more i think about G+ the more i like it, it is actualy a platform that
could last forever.
Making more powerfull power source(battery), bigger(or color LCD) and
ROM(software) upgrades.
could go forever from now on.
It's just a matter of fitting better LCD in to the case and adding a plus or
a number: 49G++ or 50G+
:-)
manjo
"Veli-Pekka Nousiainen" <DROP...@MAIL.welho.com> wrote in message
news:cfm1sa$e3g$1...@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi...
Terrbow48
except as a picture whether the Qonos is a good thing or is actually a dud.
Another thing I have heard a lot of people talk about a bigger screen and
yet on the Qonos a good portion of the screen is actually wasted not used at
all and since the 48 series they have always had a virtual screen.
Another thing, who designed the hardware the programmer or an industrial
designer. A lot of people remember the original 49 as far I am concerned the
hard keys, the super shiny screen overlay that you could with. Face it JYA
is a good programmer but I think he has no concept of industrial design, as
has already been mentioned as being too top heavy, at least that's the way
it looks.
Terry
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
> I'm not sure why it is not obviews to you,
>
> of course you can use ARM for realy fast work -and Xscale extensions as
> well,
> but not in the way you would use it on 49G+.
Why not?
As far as I understand it we could call Qonos hp 49g++
You can use Samsung~Intel ARM~xScale CPU instructions
> This fact alone is enough to conclude that it won't be G+ compatible.
> I agree Qonos may have superior hardware, but older ROM 49G may make it
> one generation older. I mean come on, 49G and G+ are NOT the same.
They are not.
> Try running ARM code on 49G ?!
Try running xScale code on 49g+
> You did limit compatibility in your statement to:
> > The 49G and 49g+ are the same (UserRPL)
>
> is UserRPL enough for you ?
>
> The project i made for reading/writing SMS messages from G+
> i started with highly optimized UserRPL code which took about 5 seconds
> to unpack 160 characters (7 bit chars packed in to 8 bit bytes).
>
> Cell phones do the same job without noticing the delay.
> I decided i MUST do it in Saturn, becase 5 seconds is totaly unacceptable,
> on the other hand knowing there must be more power in good old Saturn.
> Saturn machine code does the same job in 0.04 s (about 120 times faster).
> I hope we all realize what ARM can do, and the whole beauty of the ARM
> architecture.
BUT I was in undestanding that ANY hp48 amu or similar
could also run Saturn code <= THIS IS MY POINT !!!
> Again, i agree Qonos may be better product in both quality and hardware
and
> i realize
> Xscale is new generation based on ARM core, however, I would consider
> comparing
> Qonos to 49G+, only if it will be G+ comatible. If it will be comatible
only
> to the Saturn
> layer, with fixed 49G rom it will fall between 49G and G+. It will be like
> proper 49G.
X
The Qonos EMUlator could be called 49g++
Jean-Yves, Gerald: HELP!!
More information about the emulator is needed
Is it
A) Script based CAS simulator using Parisse's Xiac
B) UserRPL compatible 49G emulator
C) SysRPL compatible 49G emulator
D) Saturn compatible
E) ARM compatible
F) open source project given freely to us to expand
G) all of the above
H) even more: ......
[VPN]
Aaron Toponce
concerned about feasability, reliability, and robustness. If this
scientific PDA can capture the essence of those 3 ideals, then I will
certainly consider purchasing one. However, I worry about such ideas
that spring forth from the minds of intellects. Remember Microsoft
Bob? What a flop that was! Yet it had such great potential, it wasn't
what the market was looking for. It aimed to please the engineers, and
not the market as a whole. I am afraid that may be what Project Qonos
is. This has great potential, but is it addressing the needs and
concerns of the the market place? From what I read in this NG, keep
the existing product, just increase the quality of hardware. Am I
wrong? The 49 is a seriously great calculator, but are the hardware
issues keeping it back? I don't mean to be pessimistic, I am trying to
get a good hold on it's future. I certainly didn't mean to start a
thread that would have such negative tones. JYA, engineer the hell out
of it! I hope that it is a major success! It would be awesome to have
such a product on the market, and address the needs of engineers and
scientists and help make their jobs easier. I am for any tool that
makes my job easier.
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
news:cfosv9$u...@odah37.prod.google.com...
X
> From what I read in this NG, keep
> the existing product, just increase the quality of hardware. Am I
> wrong? The 49 is a seriously great calculator, but are the hardware
> issues keeping it back? I don't mean to be pessimistic, I am trying to
> get a good hold on it's future.
What HP (not Hydrix Partners :) needs is a simple TI-83/84 style calc.
I suggest a HP-37G+, which would have ROM in Flash
< to correct the bugs cheaply>
and no symbolics at all, no DESOLVE, SOLVE, INTVX, DERVX, etc.
only numerical things like ROOT, numerical integration and
the plotting may include the differential eq plot
naturally the runge.kutta etc. numeric solvers are ok
THAT in a sub-99$/? price class (as low as possible)
with an excellent keyboard coul take the market back to HP
The project Q'onos is for PRO only
{VPN}
Noel Causerano
I fully agree with you.
The existing product is excellent.
Quality is the only major issue here.
Regards
[NC]