Who designed HP 17BII+?...
A.L.
functions are not needed for business calculations. Therefore, HP
17bII+ doesn't have trigonometric functions. Surprisingly, it has
constant "pi".
My young cousin who got dead HP 17bII+ as birthday gift asked:
"Well... How I will be calculating periodic demand?" I had no answer.
We checked HP12. No trig functions. I checked my TI BA II - all trig
functions, reverse, hyperbolic and reverse...
Or... Maybe I cannot find the menu entry or proper key?...
A.L.
BobW
"A.L." <alew...@zanoza.com> wrote in message
news:olucd45qktckc7676...@4ax.com...
The new 20B has trig.
Bob
--
== All google group posts are automatically deleted due to spam ==
A.L.
<nimby_GIMM...@roadrunner.com> wrote:
>
>"A.L." <alew...@zanoza.com> wrote in message
>news:olucd45qktckc7676...@4ax.com...
>> Whoever designed this calculator, made assumption that trigonometric
>> functions are not needed for business calculations. Therefore, HP
>> 17bII+ doesn't have trigonometric functions. Surprisingly, it has
>> constant "pi".
>>
>> My young cousin who got dead HP 17bII+ as birthday gift asked:
>> "Well... How I will be calculating periodic demand?" I had no answer.
>> We checked HP12. No trig functions. I checked my TI BA II - all trig
>> functions, reverse, hyperbolic and reverse...
>>
>> Or... Maybe I cannot find the menu entry or proper key?...
>>
>> A.L.
>
>The new 20B has trig.
>
Yes. But it doesn't have solevr and equations. This is more or less
the same functionality as TI BA II and much less than TI BA II
PROFESSIONAL that costs the same and can be purchased from Office Max
right from the shelf
A.L.
TW
> Yes. But it doesn't have solevr and equations. This is more or less
> the same functionality as TI BA II and much less than TI BA II
> PROFESSIONAL that costs the same and can be purchased from Office Max
> right from the shelf
You and he will obviously be happier with the TI one and so should it
and exchange.
TW
Gene
> On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 11:34:28 -0700, "BobW"
>
>
>
>
> >"A.L." <alewa...@zanoza.com> wrote in message
Let's see. You have some options.
1) But another business calculator with the solver and equations and
trig. Oops. No other options exist that are still made, are there? So,
rather rough to beat up on HP for not providing something that NO ONE
ELSE provides either. Yes, you could find a 95LX, 100LX, 200LX, or
19BII calculator if you like.
2) The 20b has more functionality built into it than the TI BAII Plus.
The BAII Plus Professional has only a couple of functions not included
in the 20b...things such as MIRR. However, the 20b has a host of
functions that even the TI BAII Plus professional does not have.
Probability distributions, standard error, covariance, etc.
3) The 17b2+ is an evolution from the 17BII which evolved from the
17B. NONE of this lineage had built-in trig functions. The only
business calculator that HP ever made with the solver and trig
functions was the 19B/19BII. Buy one off ebay if you want one.
4) If this is such a big deal to you, might I suggest you do more
research before buying a machine in the future? It is very plain that
the 17BII+ does not have trig functions even with 5 minutes of
searching. Since none of its ancestors in its direct line ever had
trig functions, it was a mistake to assume it did without checking.
Finally,
5) I agree with Tim. Perhaps you should simply go buy a TI? Of course,
you won't have any equations at all, will you? Enjoy!
Gene
P.S. I do agree that the inclusion of PI makes no sense on the 17b2+.
John H Meyers
(although I have created satisfactory trig functions for myself,
using summations, and so could anyone else, perhaps using
even better clever formulas which give good enough results
for financial applications).
The old 19B (a folding "clamshell" calculator) is much like the 17B,
but added trig (and graphing), I believe.
As time goes by, and technology offers more ROM and RAM for the buck,
more features tend to appear in newer products at the same tier,
although sometimes there are also unseen losses
(e.g. the care taken with algorithms sometimes slips,
and wrong results have been known to appear
in new models which represent themselves
as updates of the originals, yet are only imitations).
As for the buyer who purchases blindly,
without even looking at product specs,
that's a whole other area of inadequacy,
not attributable to any product or manufacturer
which clearly and honestly states its specifications up front.
-[ ]-
A.L.
wrote:
Go away. HP is REQUIRED for whatever reasons. Of course, I would be
much happier with TI. Calculator with trigonometric function is a joke
A.L.
A.L.
wrote:
>
>4) If this is such a big deal to you, might I suggest you do more
>research before buying a machine in the future? It is very plain that
>the 17BII+ does not have trig functions even with 5 minutes of
>searching. Since none of its ancestors in its direct line ever had
>trig functions, it was a mistake to assume it did without checking.
>
>Finally,
Finally, reqading with understanding has great future. But it seems to
be hard.
Label A: HP 17bII+ IS REQUIRED, repeat IS REQUIRED for some course.
REQUIRED, means, according to Webster, that HE MUST HAVE THIS
CALCULATOR.
If you understand statements above, go ahead. If not, go to Label A.
Other course REQUIRES trigonometric functions. BOTH IN BUSINESS
SCHOOL.
>
>5) I agree with Tim. Perhaps you should simply go buy a TI? Of course,
>you won't have any equations at all, will you? Enjoy!
Label B: HP 17bII+ IS REQUIRED, repeat IS REQUIRED for some course.
REQUIRED, means, according to Webster, that HE MUST HAVE THIS
CALCULATOR.
If you understand statements above, go ahead. If not, go to Label B.
Bottom line: I purchased for him also TI BA II PROFESSIONAL.
>
>Gene
>
>P.S. I do agree that the inclusion of PI makes no sense on the 17b2+.
Then, what I shoud say this kid: "How I will calculate periodic
demand?"...
A.L.
A.L.
<jhme...@nomail.invalid> wrote:
>
>As for the buyer who purchases blindly,
>without even looking at product specs,
How many times I will keep repeating: THIS CALCULATOR IS REQUIRED FOR
SOME COURSE, and OTHER COURSE REQUIERS TRIG FUNCTIONS.
>that's a whole other area of inadequacy,
>not attributable to any product or manufacturer
>which clearly and honestly states its specifications up front.
>
And THIS IS GOOD CALCULATOR, BUT CALCULATOR WITHOUT TRIG IS A TRASH.
Whatever is manufacturer and whatever specs says. I don't know any
other calculator that doesn't provide trigs, except HP.
By the way, this is in sync with "great" design of new HP 35, that has
complex trig functions, but not inverse, that has no complex
hyperbolic functions, where you cannot calculate conjugate complex,
and where you cannot extract real and imaginary.
The same idea: use slide rule. There should be attached slide rule.
With HP logo.
A.L.
sc_u...@hotmail.com
> Go away. HP is REQUIRED for whatever reasons. Of course, I would be
> much happier with TI. Calculator with trigonometric function is a joke
>
I suppose you could program the trig functions using their Taylor
series expansions...
TI BA II Plus PROFESSIONAL looks like a good choice. Vanilla TI BA II
Plus looks like it's built to the same form factor as the TI-30X IIS
which has poor key quality.
Schools should not require a certain brand of calculator, whether
that's TI, HP, Casio, Sharp, or whatever. Teachers/professors/
textbooks should not be bought off by a particular calculator
manufacturer to only teach using that brand. All that does is forces a
monopoly.
S.C.
TW
> REQUIRED, means, according to Webster, that HE MUST HAVE THIS
> CALCULATOR.
Well if you said that in the first place we wouldn't have assumed
otherwise.
> If you understand statements above, go ahead. If not, go to Label A.
There was no label A until now. Is it our fault you didn't bother to
give relevant information?
> Other course REQUIRES trigonometric functions. BOTH IN BUSINESS
> SCHOOL.
Yup. Hence the fact that the new business calc has them.
> Label B: HP 17bII+ IS REQUIRED, repeat IS REQUIRED for some course.
> REQUIRED, means, according to Webster, that HE MUST HAVE THIS
> CALCULATOR.
Error, goto start. . . rinse. . . repeat. . .
> Then, what I shoud say this kid: "How I will calculate periodic
> demand?"...
Then why should we bother to show you how to get around this when all
you ever do is insult, troll, and generally behave disagreeably?
(said with a wheezy voice) "He has chosen. . . pooooorly."
TW
PS - most successful business calculator ever in the history of this
planet has no trig functions. . .
sc_u...@hotmail.com
> How many times I will keep repeating: THIS CALCULATOR IS REQUIRED FOR
> SOME COURSE, and OTHER COURSE REQUIERS TRIG FUNCTIONS.
> By the way, this is in sync with "great" design of new HP 35, that has
> complex trig functions, but not inverse, that has no complex
> hyperbolic functions, where you cannot calculate conjugate complex,
> and where you cannot extract real and imaginary.
TI-84+ is REQUIRED for statistics course; other course in MATHEMATICS
department requires complex trig. Whoops! Better get my HP50.
S.C.
John H Meyers
Direct rant at school which doesn't allow choice;
neither HP nor the product had anything to do with that.
"Wail, for the world's wrong."
http://www.bartleby.com/66/31/53931.html
"Wise men ne'er sit and wail their woes,
But presently prevent the ways to wail."
http://www.bartleby.com/66/85/50285.html
-[ ]-
TW
> department requires complex trig. Whoops! Better get my HP50.
I've also never had any trouble in any courses that require a specific
unit. All it generally means is that you don't get any help when you
ask the teacher. Considering I always knew more about calculators
than the professor, this was never much of a problem. In fact, the
reason i wrote the stat pack that clones everything on the 83/84 and
adds a lot more, was for a younger sister to use on her 39 when she
took the same stupid statistics class I took in high school.
TW
Sylvain
> Schools should not require a certain brand of calculator, whether
> that's TI, HP, Casio, Sharp, or whatever. Teachers/professors/
> textbooks should not be bought off by a particular calculator
> manufacturer to only teach using that brand. All that does is forces a
> monopoly.
I agree in principle, although I do see the point that the teachers might
have, that it makes their lives a heck of a lot more complicated when they
have to accomodate a wide variety of tools... it would be a bit like if
every student was to pick his/her own text book.
One possible solution (I am an idealist :-) ) would be for the schools to
come up with an agreed upon detailed specs or standard, down to UI details
if they must, that each manufacturer could decide to implement.
--Sylvain
sc_u...@hotmail.com
Or that students could actually read the manual of whichever
calculator they decide to buy, so that when the teacher says, for
instance, "Find the roots of this equation", each student knows
exactly what to do without the teacher walking through keystroke-by-
keystroke. Then as long as the calculator supports that particular
function or is programmable, it will work.
S.C.
Sylvain
>> One possible solution (I am an idealist :-) ) would be for the schools to
>> come up with an agreed upon detailed specs or standard,
>
> Or that students could actually read the manual
I said that I was an idealist, not delusional :-)
--Sylvain
sc_u...@hotmail.com
>
> I said that I was an idealist, not delusional :-)
>
> --Sylvain
Of course. My mistake. :)
S.C.
Frank Pittel
: > Label A: HP 17bII+ IS REQUIRED, repeat IS REQUIRED for some course.
: TW
I have to admit I enjoy reading the trolls from a.l.. I would suggest that
people not to take the trolls seriously and to remember that the trolls are
setup so that there is never a solution.
--
-------------------
Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
Chips
has trig functions.
"A.L." <alew...@zanoza.com> wrote in message
news:g5gdd4hj1c2lnlm7s...@4ax.com...
Steve Schow
financial calculator. I've been evaluating all the ones I could find
and it fits the bill. I was able to program MIRR into it rather
easily using a solution from the 19B manual. The TI has MIRR already,
but the quality of the actual buttons and stuff is inferior to the HP
and it doesn't have a solver. There are some known bugs in the
latest rev of the 17bII+ in terms of the solver, which is
dissappointing, so hopefully HP will come out with something better in
the future. If they still made the 19B I would get it. It has a few
more functions available in the solver which are not in the 17B, such
as trig and PV, FV, etc. But you can write solvers to do those
things, but you just have to use lower level functions and its a bit
more tedious and complicated to figure out.
If HP would make a new calculator that had solver, financial
functions(including MIRR for crise sakes), macro programming, trig and
some additional scientific functions...I would buy it tomorrow for any
price. But until that time, for real estate investing...the 17bII+ is
probably the best calculator currently sold. That's my opinion.
Anyone know of anything else? is there a higher end calculator that
does everything the 17B does, with all the other stuff as well and not
too complicated to use?
Christoph Widmer
You can calculate the trigs by using the solver. Different formulas are
given in this article:
http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/articles.cgi?read=695