QonoS update

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Jean-Yves Avenard

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Apr 2, 2005, 4:07:32 AM4/2/05
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Hello

Many people have been wondering what was happening with this exciting
project and I thought instead of having people to hang out there I
should drop a word.

As you probably know QonoS is based on an Xscale 260 series with 32MB of
Flash ROM, 64MB of SDRAM and 512KB of SRAM

Most applications are running well including the various emulators.

All hardware peripherals are working properly (including the USB host
controller)

The main reason it seems that very few has been happening is a
manufacturing and financial problem.

The minimum build quantity is 5000. With an expected price of $350, you
can imagine the amount of cash required to finance the first build.
We were hoping on letters of credit from suppliers, but obviously as
with all new products few people are willing to take the risk.

So we have QonoS prototype boards working, but no manufacturing units.

Regards
Jean-Yves

VPN

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Apr 2, 2005, 5:59:03 AM4/2/05
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"Jean-Yves Avenard" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:3b75mnF...@individual.net...

Thank you for the news, Jean-Yves!

So _all_ you need is a few MegaBucks (instead of MegaBugs)
If I had the money I would showel it in.
How about a short term loan for 100.000,00 USD?
Naah! That's simply not enough...
I think you should build about 20000 devices on the first run
Hey!
Who can borrow 10+10 MegaBucks for Hydrix for 6 months + 12 months
???
VPN
PS: The above rambling is to just show how it is...
I mean - to get a better hold on what it means - to myself
PPS:
Do continue to expand it and iron out the bugs?
PPPS: Are there any shares - I may want to buy !!!


Calvin

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Apr 2, 2005, 1:06:45 PM4/2/05
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Thank you for the information. I think a lot of people are interested
in progress reports. I hope you'll update us periodically in the
future.

Scott Chapin

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Apr 2, 2005, 2:11:46 PM4/2/05
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"Jean-Yves Avenard" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:3b75mnF...@individual.net...

Thank you, very much for the update.

Scott Chapin


Eric Smith

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Apr 2, 2005, 2:34:41 PM4/2/05
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Jean-Yves Avenard <m...@privacy.net> writes:
> The minimum build quantity is 5000. With an expected price of $350,
> you can imagine the amount of cash required to finance the first build.

Only by imagining what the cost (not the expected price) is. If the
cost is $150, you need $750,000 to build the run.

> We were hoping on letters of credit from suppliers,

Who provided your funding for the R&D to get to this stage? Didn't they
have any plan for manufacturing other than letters of credit?

Best regards,
Eric

Jean-Yves Avenard

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Apr 2, 2005, 3:18:33 PM4/2/05
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Eric Smith wrote:
> Only by imagining what the cost (not the expected price) is. If the
> cost is $150, you need $750,000 to build the run.

I really wish the build cost would be $150 :)

>
> Who provided your funding for the R&D to get to this stage? Didn't they
> have any plan for manufacturing other than letters of credit?

Gerald and I funded the whole project..
We had several plans, none of them worked but there's still very good hopes

Jean-Yves

Barry Allen

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Apr 2, 2005, 5:11:58 PM4/2/05
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In article <3b8d0qF...@individual.net>,
Jean-Yves Avenard <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

Is there any way this can be offered as a build it yourself kit?
I'd pay $ 150 for all the parts and software!

Eric Smith

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Apr 2, 2005, 8:42:53 PM4/2/05
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Jean-Yves Avenard <m...@privacy.net> writes:
> I really wish the build cost would be $150 :)

If you want to sell it for $350, and not lose your shirts, it had
better be.

>> Who provided your funding for the R&D to get to this stage? Didn't
>> they have any plan for manufacturing other than letters of credit?
> Gerald and I funded the whole project..

Oh. That explains it. Pretty good progress for a self-funded startup.

> We had several plans, none of them worked but there's still very good hopes

Best of luck on that! I'd really like to buy one.

Eric

Cockpit Colin

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Apr 3, 2005, 12:26:23 AM4/3/05
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> The minimum build quantity is 5000. With an expected price of $350, you
> can imagine the amount of cash required to finance the first build.
> We were hoping on letters of credit from suppliers, but obviously as
> with all new products few people are willing to take the risk.

JPA - you might like to clarify if the $350 is USD or AUS.

VPN

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Apr 3, 2005, 1:52:17 AM4/3/05
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"Cockpit Colin" <sp...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:w3L3e.15235$1S4.1...@news.xtra.co.nz...

naturally USD and that is the minimum, I expect 399 at first
localization costs money, marketing cost money, etc...

VPN - opinions only

PS: http://www.hpcalc.org/qonos.php
Price:
Over US$350


Thomas Deniau

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Apr 3, 2005, 4:29:31 AM4/3/05
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Jean-Yves Avenard <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

> The minimum build quantity is 5000. With an expected price of $350, you
> can imagine the amount of cash required to finance the first build.
> We were hoping on letters of credit from suppliers, but obviously as
> with all new products few people are willing to take the risk.

Maybe you should try and accept pre-orders ?

--
Thomas Deniau

Cockpit Colin

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Apr 3, 2005, 7:00:09 AM4/3/05
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Mind you, having said that, the two are practically the same these days!

USD -v- AUD; not JYA and VPN!


"VPN" <DROP...@THIS.dlc.fi> wrote in message
news:nlM3e.6967$nA....@reader1.news.jippii.net...

Deperez

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Apr 3, 2005, 8:44:41 AM4/3/05
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>> The minimum build quantity is 5000. With an expected price of $350,
you
>> can imagine the amount of cash required to finance the first build.
>> We were hoping on letters of credit from suppliers, but obviously
as
>> with all new products few people are willing to take the risk.

I think to sell shares is a VERY GOOD IDEA !

There is a lot of people around here willing to buy Qonos and better
to buy Hidrix shares !!! of course you should NEVER loose the control
of the company !!!!

You should NOT have to go "Public" because this is much more expensive
than the very first try of 5,000 units.

Just send an e-mail to all your "HP-fans" and will collect a very
interesting amount "with no cost". If you want to make a "survey" of
how much funds you will collect ... just ask here how many people
wants to buy Qonos and have a "Christmas Bonus" in one year when all
the units have being sold !!!

Just an idea !!!

Daniel

Steen Schmidt

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Apr 3, 2005, 9:35:00 AM4/3/05
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Cockpit Colin wrote:

> Mind you, having said that, the two are practically the same these
> days!
>
> USD -v- AUD; not JYA and VPN!

Not in Denmark. Here, if we put USD at 100 % value, AUD are at 77 % and
EUR at 130 %.

Regards
Steen

J. Greer

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Apr 3, 2005, 11:58:19 AM4/3/05
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I have a fair amount of homebrew experience. A project such as this
would require extensive integration to remain palmsize. It is possible
to manually build some surface mount projects. I doubt that this would
be one of them.

Jeff

Cockpit Colin

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Apr 3, 2005, 9:10:31 PM4/3/05
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Perhaps HP would give you a link to a Hydrix Pre-Pay site on the HP49g+
troubleshooting page ;)


D Herring

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Apr 4, 2005, 3:49:13 AM4/4/05
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Jean-Yves,

What follows are a few quick thoughts.

> I think to sell shares is a VERY GOOD IDEA !

This appears to be a good idea, but its actually very bad.

Offering "shares" to the general public is a good way to land in the
slammer. You can sell to family, close acquaintances, co-workers, and
select venture-capital types (up to 500 people?) without "going public",
but offering shares over the internet definitely counts as public. From
what I've heard, the people who regulate this stuff make the IRS seem
friendly.

However, selling pre-orders should be perfectly legal, and avoids the
possibility of a hostile takeover. You might even open up auctions
(ebay?) to bid-up sales for the first units out the door. The only
downside with pre-orders is that you must ship or re-imburse.

Could you possibly build and sell a few prototype units to generate more
interest and get some money flowing? It sounds like you have a product,
but are missing the market analysis and sales plan needed to get
funding. Demonstrated sales may open doors to more funding and may
results in helpful community feedback.

What has your personal bank said about loans? Then again, $1.5 million
is probably a bit too much for them.

I assume you've already checked with the Small Business Administration
(www.sba.gov)? Is there a nearby university or research park that could
help?

Later,
Daniel

Jean-Yves Avenard

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Apr 4, 2005, 5:48:22 AM4/4/05
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D Herring wrote:
> I assume you've already checked with the Small Business Administration
> (www.sba.gov)? Is there a nearby university or research park that could
> help?

Remember that we are an Australian company, so the US regulations don't
apply.

Pre-orders is a different story, the minimum build we can do at the
factory is 5,000 they won't accept any orders for less than that (or
charge an enormous amount of money for it)...
I doubt I can get 5000 pre-order and let people who did purchase it wait
for several months for everything to happen.

Jean-Yves

Jaap Versteegh

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Apr 4, 2005, 10:22:13 AM4/4/05
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> Pre-orders is a different story, the minimum build we can do at the
> factory is 5,000 they won't accept any orders for less than that (or
> charge an enormous amount of money for it)...
> I doubt I can get 5000 pre-order and let people who did purchase it wait
> for several months for everything to happen.

Just sell the thing to a big company !
You people are developing a thing like Qonos for fun right ? Otherwise you
would have chosen another profession...
Doing production, marketing, sales, customer support, etc is no fun, not to
the people of a high tech company anyway.

> Jean-Yves

Jaap

Steen Schmidt

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Apr 4, 2005, 11:12:53 AM4/4/05
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Jaap Versteegh wrote:

> You people are developing a thing like Qonos for fun right ?

I doubt it - not exclusively anyway. Do you have any idea what it takes
to develop something like the Qonos?

> Otherwise you would have chosen another profession... Doing
> production, marketing, sales, customer support, etc is no fun, not to
> the people of a high tech company anyway.

Why not? Building your own company can be quite a challenge and very
rewarding (albeit expensive and risky).

For me it's all about diversity - I don't want to sit around
programming all day, or designing electronics, or planning and
supervising work, or managing finances all day. I like some of
everything, and at times some parts use up more time than others.

But most importantly I value my family and other personal hobbies
(motorcycles for instance) higher than any of the above (at this point
in my life).

Priorities change...

Regards
Steen

VPN

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Apr 4, 2005, 1:37:31 PM4/4/05
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"Jean-Yves Avenard" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:3bcgr9F...@individual.net...

Try it out!
Make them numbered collectors item!
I hereby order number one (# 1)
Where can I send my 350 USD?
[VPN]


Larry Smith

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Apr 4, 2005, 2:00:57 PM4/4/05
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It occurs to me that with the changing of the guard at HP, HP itself
might be very interested in purchasing a spiffy new startup with a
completely designed and nearly ready for production calculator with
a strong HP affiliation.

--
.-. .-. .---. .---. .-..-.|Experts in Linux/Unix: www.WildOpenSource.com
| |__ / | \| |-< | |-< > / |"Making the bazaar more commonplace"
`----'`-^-'`-'`-'`-'`-' `-' |Check out my new novel: "Cloud Realm" at:
home:www.smith-house.org:8000|http://www.smith-house.org:8000/books/list.html

Jaap Versteegh

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Apr 4, 2005, 4:01:08 PM4/4/05
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Steen Schmidt wrote:
> I doubt it - not exclusively anyway. Do you have any idea what it takes
> to develop something like the Qonos?

I think I do. I meant the main drive for developing it was other than a
market opportunity.


Regards,

Jaap

Volker Neurath

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Apr 4, 2005, 4:57:59 PM4/4/05
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Jaap Versteegh wrote:

>Just sell the thing to a big company !

To HP? scnr

Well, i think if they would sell it to a big company, it will get
dusty in a drawer...

Volker
--
Besides, i'm of the opinon, that TCPA has to be stopped

Steve Sousa

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Apr 4, 2005, 5:30:57 PM4/4/05
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"Jean-Yves Avenard" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message news:3bcgr9F...@individual.net...
> Pre-orders is a different story, the minimum build we can do at the
> factory is 5,000 they won't accept any orders for less than that (or
> charge an enormous amount of money for it)...

What part of the project has a 5000 minimum? the plastics molding, the
electronics or both?
I know a very good electronics assembly house here in Portugal, i can
also ask how the stuff goes in the netherlands.
The electronics can most certainly be done for less than 5000 units,
about molding, i've no idea.

--
Steve Sousa

Gary Owen

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Apr 4, 2005, 9:13:27 PM4/4/05
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There has to be a way to get Qonos to the market. There just has to
be!

It sure would be nice to see a company like Hydrix become a major
calculator supplier. I for one wouldn't consider teaming and/or
selling the Qonos design rights to a large corporation -- unless there
is absolutely no other alternative.

Look at how Microsoft got started. They developed something for IBM
because IBM was too big to see the value of a PC operating system of
their own. (I wonder what they would say now)

Look at how Apple Computer got started. They "developed" what was
originally conceived at Xerox. Go figure.

If JYA ever decides to take Qonos pre-orders, COUNT ME IN!
(HP has had their chance and enough of my money)

Regards,
Gary

Eric Smith

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Apr 4, 2005, 10:31:26 PM4/4/05
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"Gary Owen" <glo...@inav.net> writes:
> Look at how Microsoft got started. They developed something for IBM
> because IBM was too big to see the value of a PC operating system of
> their own.

1. Microsoft got started and was fairly successful for four years before
they had any major involvement with IBM.

2. IBM's concern was time-to-market. The whole PC operation was a
shoestring, quick-and-dirty operation that was not expected to sell
very many units, and they were already "late to the party", so the
time it would take to write a new OS was not justifiable.

3. IBM provided not one, but THREE different operating systems for the
PC, at the customer's choice. Only one of those, IBM-DOS, was
licensed from Microsoft. But IBM-DOS was inexpensive, so that's
what most customers purchased.

4. Microsoft's current near-total market dominance is most likely the
result of the success of their Windows product, not MS-DOS. Though
Windows was originally hosted on MS-DOS, if things had been
different and a non-Microsoft OS had been prevalent, Microsoft would
have offered Windows hosted on that OS.

> (I wonder what they would say now)

I'm only guessing, but I suspect that if they'd had any idea that they'd
sell a gazillion units...

1. They would have made the PC hardware "closed": no published
schematics or theory of operation, and only very limited
documentation on the expansion slots.

2. They would have written their own OS, which would have been
better than IBM-DOS in some ways and worse in others.

3. They would have made the PC software "closed": no published
BIOS listing, and only very limited BIOS and OS interface
documentation.

The end result would have been:

The IBM PC would probably not have dominated the market. Despite having
IBM's name on it, a major part of what made the PC popular was the
amazing breadth of third-party hardware and software, which was a direct
result of the openness of the software and hardware.

Contrast to the market acceptance of the PS/2: nearly none at all. Even
IBM had to backpedal and resume offering AT clones.

Deperez

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Apr 5, 2005, 9:13:49 AM4/5/05
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You may try EVERYTHING !!!

Just like Qonos, that work with Linux, TI and RPN emulators,
"multifunctional"

Pre orders, soft credit from fans (some people will prefer invest on
Hidrix to HP), selling shares on a "non Public Bases" (you do not need
100 people to rise USD$500 thousand), ... bingo, ... selling candies,
... etc.

You just got to know you have a good product and try to get it
funded!!!, but don´t loose your mind, [should be fun :)], or the
control of YOUR company.

Some of my best computerized friends has had fund raising up to USD$6
million, and lost the controll of the company, so after 2 - 3 years
company just disapper.

They got a LOT of money, but loose the fun of creating nice
interesting incredible devices. Now they have fancy cars, houses,
worldwide trips, and whatever you can imagine, but are not happy,
because what they like must to do was to make this incredible devices
that no longer can because they sold the controll of their company.

Since INTEL set a producing plant in Costa Rica, we got down here
several companies that could produce a "first shot" of Qonos... for a
part of the Hidrix shares .... (they are producing car alarms, and
medical instruments in that way)

If you want I will ask them for "minimum conditions" too.... maybe
they can produce just 3,000 and do not need that much funds to begin
and test the market!!!

Anyway, just try everything your are confortable with, and let us know
how we can help.

Daniel

Steve Sousa

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Apr 4, 2005, 1:53:58 PM4/4/05
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"Jean-Yves Avenard" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:3bcgr9F...@individual.net...
> Pre-orders is a different story, the minimum build we can do at the
> factory is 5,000 they won't accept any orders for less than that (or
> charge an enormous amount of money for it)...

What part of the project has a 5000 minimum? the plastics molding, the

electronics or both?
I know a very good electronics assembly house here in Portugal, i can also
ask how the stuff goes in the netherlands.

The electronics most certainly be done for less than 5000 units, about

Joel Kolstad

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Apr 6, 2005, 7:29:43 PM4/6/05
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"Jaap Versteegh" <j.r.versteegh_at_wanadoo_dot_nl> wrote in message
news:0oadnRUKBMM...@casema.nl...

> You people are developing a thing like Qonos for fun right ? Otherwise you
> would have chosen another profession...

This is a sad commentary on how most people choose their professions these
days! But there are still plenty of 'technical' people out there who
thoroughly ENJOY their jobs -- and get paid good money to perform them --
while simultaneously having fun.

> Doing production, marketing, sales, customer support, etc is no fun, not
> to the people of a high tech company anyway.

You can find people who find all of these items 'fun' -- just probably not
the same ones who were in your modern physics or analog design classes. :-)

Personally, I'd gladly pre-order a Qonos (or 2 or 5 or perhaps even 10 if I
could swing it -- I'd re-sell the extras at cost later).

---Joel Kolstad


Brandon Del Bel

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Apr 6, 2005, 7:52:52 PM4/6/05
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You might be surprised how many people would be willing to pre-order. I
know I'd go for it.

MSCHAEF.COM

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Apr 7, 2005, 9:23:44 AM4/7/05
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In article <1112831572.2...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,

Brandon Del Bel <nesci...@gmail.com> wrote:
>You might be surprised how many people would be willing to pre-order. I
>know I'd go for it.

I'd pre-order too. I have some software I'd really like to see running
on a platform like that.

-Mike
--
http://www.mschaef.com

Jake Schwartz

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Apr 7, 2005, 1:41:46 PM4/7/05
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I'm sure many folks are familiar with the "Bring Back the HP15C" web
site located at http://hp15c.org/ .... Jean-Yves, perhaps it would
make sense to have a similar web page on the Hydrix website, inquiring
as to who would order a QonoS....It wouldn't take much to sponsor the
page and collect the names and emails, and perhaps there would be
enough interested people to make the effort worthwhile.

Jake Schwartz jakes<at>pahhc<dot>org

Joel Kolstad

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Apr 7, 2005, 2:28:54 PM4/7/05
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"Jake Schwartz" <ja...@magpage.com> wrote in message
news:1112895706.3...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

> I'm sure many folks are familiar with the "Bring Back the HP15C" web
> site located at http://hp15c.org/

Hmm... 2802 people claiming they'd buy 15311 15C's... if push came to shove,
that MIGHT come to 5000 actual purchases... speculation?

People might recall my rants about the lack of what could have been many
easily added features to the HP-33s and the suggestion that there is also
demand for a somewhat lower powered programmable scientific calculator (than
the HP-48/49 or Qonos) -- in my mind that's the same sort of thing the
HP-15C guys are after.

And the rectangular layout is pretty cool...

---Joel Kolstad


MSCHAEF.COM

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Apr 7, 2005, 4:27:22 PM4/7/05
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In article <1112895706.3...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
Jake Schwartz <ja...@magpage.com> wrote:
...

>I'm sure many folks are familiar with the "Bring Back the HP15C" web
>site located at http://hp15c.org/ .... Jean-Yves, perhaps it would
>make sense to have a similar web page on the Hydrix website, inquiring
>as to who would order a QonoS....It wouldn't take much to sponsor the
>page and collect the names and emails, and perhaps there would be
>enough interested people to make the effort worthwhile.

Problem is: signing a petition (or posting to USENET) is easy. Also,
nothing about it guarantees that the money would actually show up when
it's time to pay. If Hydrix needs to raise ~$1M to get this off the
ground, that's not going to do much to convince banks or VC's.

-Mike
--
http://www.mschaef.com

Eric Smith

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Apr 8, 2005, 4:04:25 PM4/8/05
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msc...@eris.io.com (MSCHAEF.COM) writes:
> Problem is: signing a petition (or posting to USENET) is easy. Also,
> nothing about it guarantees that the money would actually show up when
> it's time to pay.

Could be solved by allowing the potential buyers to put the money
(or a certain portion of it) in escrow. If the buyer doesn't get the
product by a specified date, the money would be refunded.

thegoldbug

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Apr 9, 2005, 1:35:48 PM4/9/05
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"VPN" <DROP...@THIS.dlc.fi> wrote in message
news:pUe4e.7331$5G5...@reader1.news.jippii.net...

I agree and would also offer US$351.00 for serial number 1. So there you
go, you could begin auctioning off serial numbers to collectors, (1, 10,
100, 1000, etc) which would bring in a little more money. I hope something
happens fairly soon as my PalmIIIx is starting act flakey and will need to
be replaced soon.

thegoldbug


MSCHAEF.COM

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Apr 9, 2005, 8:31:36 PM4/9/05
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In article <qhvf6xy...@ruckus.brouhaha.com>,

Sounds like a reasonable strategy.

-Mike

--
http://www.mschaef.com

Cameron Downunder

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Apr 10, 2005, 5:06:18 AM4/10/05
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Jean-Yves Avenard wrote:

> Most applications are running well including the various emulators.
>
> All hardware peripherals are working properly (including the USB host
controller)


On the technical side, how is the datalogging capabilities going. Can
you datalog two inputs??

I am wondering if I know you from Radiophysics Sydney early 1980's.

Regards

Cameron Downunder.

Jean-Yves Avenard

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Apr 10, 2005, 5:45:50 AM4/10/05
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Cameron Downunder wrote:
> On the technical side, how is the datalogging capabilities going. Can
> you datalog two inputs??
Of course..

The sled had 4 digital ports (4 IOs each) and 4 analog port (2 IOs each)

Jean-Yves

werty

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Apr 12, 2005, 10:30:29 AM4/12/05
to
Raise $$ ?!! You went to the wrong college !
In todays govt "regulated" market , the only way to
raise money for a box is to be "on the inside" with
a crony , with a mediocre box .
Thus good boxes are killed 2 ways ..... The cronies are affraid
you'll compete , so they cry to govt who pul strings to stop
you ..... or the lenders are affraid for the same reasons .
There is only one way ... offshore ... maybe the gov't will
not be so "thorough " ha ha ....
Hong Kong .... Taiwan ..... But they have cronies also
so you are outa luck .
This is why you did not see a small PC drawing 1/4 the power
of a notebook , with FORTH 10 years ago when everyone knew
exactly how to do it , they had all the parts , they had the money
.....
But My Uncle is a bad ass dude .
I tried to start a Radio Shack long ago ...... same problem Gov't
had corp R.S. in their pocket or vice versa ... They told me they'd
hold back inventory , if i had good volume , then they'd pick up the
laese
and make it a high volume "company" store .

werty

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Apr 12, 2005, 10:30:24 AM4/12/05
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werty

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Apr 12, 2005, 10:30:32 AM4/12/05
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Allen Windhorn

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Apr 15, 2005, 12:22:21 PM4/15/05
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"Brandon Del Bel" <nesci...@gmail.com> writes:

> You might be surprised how many people would be willing to pre-order. I
> know I'd go for it.

I would put down $400 NOW for the Calculator LATER if I could be
assured of getting it back if the calculator could not be produced.
An escrow account would allow this. Having a lot of money in escrow
just waiting for production to happen ought to give the bank a better
feeling about the project.

The PPC ROM project for the HP-41 was produced this way.

The first 5000 calculators are going to need a lot of technical
support, which will cost money.

Regards,
Allen
--
Allen Windhorn (507) 345-2782 FAX (507) 345-2805
Kato Engineering (Though I do not speak for Kato)
P.O. Box 8447, N. Mankato, MN 56002
Allen.W...@LSUSA.com

Jake Schwartz

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Apr 16, 2005, 4:10:09 PM4/16/05
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Allen Windhorn wrote:
> "Brandon Del Bel" <nesci...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > You might be surprised how many people would be willing to
pre-order. I
> > know I'd go for it.
>
> I would put down $400 NOW for the Calculator LATER if I could be
> assured of getting it back if the calculator could not be produced.
> An escrow account would allow this. Having a lot of money in escrow
> just waiting for production to happen ought to give the bank a better
> feeling about the project.
>
> The PPC ROM project for the HP-41 was produced this way.
>
> The first 5000 calculators are going to need a lot of technical
> support, which will cost money.
>
> Regards,
> Allen
> --

(slightly off topic...)

The PPC ROM project funds were collected in Richard Nelson's checking
account, all quarter million dollars of it. No interest was earned and
I believe this was done with the bank's foreknowledge. Then somehow
later, the IRS discovered this money and [wrongly] concluded that
something fishy was going on. Richard ended up going through a
multi-year nightmare attempting to convince them that this money was
not income and that no taxes should be due. He ultimately lost his
battle and paid thousands of dollars. As usual, no good deed went
unpunished.

Jaap Versteegh

unread,
Apr 16, 2005, 6:32:57 PM4/16/05
to
>>You people are developing a thing like Qonos for fun right ? Otherwise you
>>would have chosen another profession...
>
> This is a sad commentary on how most people choose their professions these
> days!

On the contrary ! In fact because of economic wealth many people can afford
to choose a job of their liking rather than being forced to do something
against their will for money. I think this is far from sad !

> But there are still plenty of 'technical' people out there who
> thoroughly ENJOY their jobs -- and get paid good money to perform them --
> while simultaneously having fun.

This may be, but I think choosing a tech eduction and job is seldom done for
becoming rich. Alternatively people with an intersest in big money will not
likely choose a tech education.

> You can find people who find all of these items 'fun' -- just probably not
> the same ones who were in your modern physics or analog design classes. :-)

Indeed... I think Jean-Yves might have followed some physics and/or analog
design classes, hence my statements, but what HE thinks is 'fun' I will
leave for himself to decide !

> Personally, I'd gladly pre-order a Qonos (or 2 or 5 or perhaps even 10 if I
> could swing it -- I'd re-sell the extras at cost later).

Me too,

Jaap Versteegh

Eric Smith

unread,
Apr 17, 2005, 1:58:13 PM4/17/05
to
Jaap Versteegh <j.r.versteegh_removethis_at_casema_dot_nl> writes:
> This may be, but I think choosing a tech eduction and job is seldom
> done for becoming rich. Alternatively people with an intersest in big
> money will not likely choose a tech education.

A friend who is a CS professor says that >90% of his students have little
aptitude for or actual interest in CS. He thinks that they signed up
precisely because they think there's big money to be made without hard
work.

thegoldbug

unread,
Apr 17, 2005, 10:50:51 PM4/17/05
to

"Eric Smith" <er...@brouhaha.com> wrote in message
news:qh4qe5i...@ruckus.brouhaha.com...

I need to jump in here. Given the 'low ambition and quality' of system
support people I've relied upon, worked around and was friends with I would
have to agree. Many are grossly overpaid and underworked (note they keep
very busy though). Nothing personal. I wish I was in such a position.

thegoldbug


VPN

unread,
Apr 17, 2005, 11:27:06 PM4/17/05
to
"thegoldbug" <mpa...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:fgF8e.920$J11...@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...

>
> "Eric Smith" <er...@brouhaha.com> wrote in message
> news:qh4qe5i...@ruckus.brouhaha.com...
>> Jaap Versteegh <j.r.versteegh_removethis_at_casema_dot_nl> writes:
>> > This may be, but I think choosing a tech eduction and job is seldom
>> > done for becoming rich. Alternatively people with an intersest in big
>> > money will not likely choose a tech education.
>>
>> A friend who is a CS professor says that >90% of his students have little
>> aptitude for or actual interest in CS. He thinks that they signed up
>> precisely because they think there's big money to be made without hard
>> work.

without hard work?
Boy are they going to be suprised!

> I need to jump in here. Given the 'low ambition and quality' of system
> support people I've relied upon, worked around and was friends with I
> would
> have to agree. Many are grossly overpaid and underworked (note they keep
> very busy though). Nothing personal. I wish I was in such a position.

Naaah! You're just being jelous...some may naturally brag
but in reality CS work is hard and overtime is seldom paid
What thi has toi do with calcs
Hmmm. you can use hp 17bII+ for calculating your income tax...
[VPN]


Joel Kolstad

unread,
Apr 18, 2005, 2:33:12 AM4/18/05
to
"Eric Smith" <er...@brouhaha.com> wrote in message
news:qh4qe5i...@ruckus.brouhaha.com...

I was a teaching assistant last year for undergraduate electronics classes,
and I agree. True, people don't go into "tech education" to become _rich_,
but they do go in because it does pay quite well.

Granted, you can't really blame people for going into a particular career
because they're first and foremost trying to insure that they have a good
life without monetary worries, can support their families, etc., but the
lack of an actual strong interest in one's chosen career is just
unfortunate, IMO. I can't help but imagine it contributes greatly to the
generally low quality of software, for instance, that's so common these
days.

A decent share of the blame for this has to be placed on industry, for
requiring people to have four (or five) year college degrees for jobs that
realistically shouldn't require it. The "college experience" in this
country has become something of a rite of passage and -- for many people --
the education acquired during that time ends up having little relevance to
their careers. This has pressured many colleges to dumb down their classes,
which is unfortunate for the relatively small number of people who really
ARE deeply interested in their chosen degree paths and want to be uber-geek
programmers, engineers, scientists, etc.

At the end of the day, it's something of a cultural shift and perhaps not
inherently bad. However, I think it's a fair statement to say that in many
cases the value of a college education today is nothing compared to what it
was some 50 years ago.

---Joel Kolstad

Joel Kolstad

unread,
Apr 18, 2005, 2:35:59 AM4/18/05
to
"VPN" <DROP...@dlc.fi> wrote in message
news:_LF8e.6613$ij7....@reader1.news.jippii.net...

> What thi has toi do with calcs

Compare the quality of the older HP products with the current releases.
Heck, compare the HP of today to the one that Bill & Dave started.

I'm not trying to be a curmudgeon here because -- despite what HP may have
become -- there's still plenty of really good, hard-working companies out
there. The Qonos guys, for one!


VPN

unread,
Apr 18, 2005, 4:06:22 AM4/18/05
to
"Joel Kolstad" <JKolstad7...@Yahoo.Com> wrote in message
news:4JudnaD3nIV...@comcast.com...

I sincerely hope that the Qonos keyboard beats my 49 & PC keyboards
Gerald & Jean-Yves are great anyway
[VPN]


Eric Smith

unread,
Apr 18, 2005, 4:20:19 AM4/18/05
to
Jaap Versteegh wrote:
> This may be, but I think choosing a tech eduction and job is seldom
> done for becoming rich. Alternatively people with an intersest in big
> money will not likely choose a tech education.

I wrote:
> A friend who is a CS professor says that >90% of his students have little
> aptitude for or actual interest in CS. He thinks that they signed up
> precisely because they think there's big money to be made without hard
> work.

thegoldbug wrote:
> I need to jump in here. Given the 'low ambition and quality' of system
> support people I've relied upon, worked around and was friends with I would
> have to agree. Many are grossly overpaid and underworked (note they keep
> very busy though). Nothing personal. I wish I was in such a position.

On the other hand, it seems common for IT support people who are
actually any good to be grossly underpaid and overworked, and to get
laid off at the drop of a hat if a company's financial state declines.
If I were in charge, good IT people would be well rewarded. Same goes
for good administrative assistants; they're typically even more
underpaid.

Eric

Eric Smith

unread,
Apr 18, 2005, 4:28:39 AM4/18/05
to
I wrote:
> A friend who is a CS professor says that >90% of his students have little
> aptitude for or actual interest in CS. He thinks that they signed up
> precisely because they think there's big money to be made without hard
> work.

Joel Kolstad wrote:
> I was a teaching assistant last year for undergraduate electronics classes,
> and I agree. True, people don't go into "tech education" to become _rich_,
> but they do go in because it does pay quite well.
>
> Granted, you can't really blame people for going into a particular career
> because they're first and foremost trying to insure that they have a good
> life without monetary worries, can support their families, etc., but the
> lack of an actual strong interest in one's chosen career is just
> unfortunate, IMO. I can't help but imagine it contributes greatly to the
> generally low quality of software, for instance, that's so common these
> days.

I suspect that the fundamental problem is that too many people don't
manage to develop any interest or aptitude for much of *anything* by
the time they should start planning a career. So all other things being
equal, naturally they're going to choose somthing that looks like it
pays well.

Maybe for some professions that's actually OK. But I've *never* seen an
example of good software written by mediocre programmers. On the other
hand, perhaps there aren't any particularly good buildings designed by
mediocre architects, either. I don't know enough about other fields to
have an informed opinion.

Anyhow, all of the good programmers I've ever known developed an
interest in science and/or mathematics at an early age, and gravitated
toward computers from there. Most of them also seem to have musical
talent; I like to fancy myself a good programmer (and modest, too!), but
I couldn't carry a tune in a bucket.

Eric

VPN

unread,
Apr 18, 2005, 9:56:41 AM4/18/05
to
"Eric Smith" <er...@brouhaha.com> wrote in message
news:qhbr8c8...@ruckus.brouhaha.com...
X

> Maybe for some professions that's actually OK. But I've *never* seen an
> example of good software written by mediocre programmers. On the other
X
Maybe it is because the schedules are outrageous!
The sales persons has promised to deliver the application yeasterday
witheen a certain budget (like two coders and no architects or managers)
[VPN]


Larry Smith

unread,
Apr 18, 2005, 1:58:28 PM4/18/05
to
Eric Smith wrote:

> I suspect that the fundamental problem is that too many people don't
> manage to develop any interest or aptitude for much of *anything* by
> the time they should start planning a career.

What else can we expect? Our secondary schools have stopped teaching
any real scholastic material, it's all about "diversity" and "finding
yourself" and "political correctness". Hell, most schools don't even
dare mention evolution in biology class - some aren't even allowed to
under state law! Biology makes absolutely no sense without evolution
to tie it all together. It's the biological version of the unified
field theory - yet schools are so chicken-hearted they back off of it
even in places where teaching it is permitted.

We've eliminated education from our schools. They are now simply an
indoctrination-and-baby-sitting service. With such material to work
with, what can a college do, really? Just more of the same, and keep
the money coming in.

Yet at the same time our educational "system" is imploding our econom-
ic engine has become so hyper-competitive that we are literally driving
ourselves out of the job market. High wages and low productivity are
an infallible recipe for outsourcing jobs. When you manage to the
quarterly bottom-line and get promoted before the results of such
short-sightedness become apparent, I, at least, would expect us to get
exactly what we've got.

I wouldn't be so bitter about it except that I know that American
productivity is no less - and usually much more - than anywhere
else in the world. But if you torture data long enough it will
confess to anything, and companies want to outsource. Once they
have an idea in their CEO's heads there is no shifting it, and
mere facts just won't cut it.

--
.-. .-. .---. .---. .-..-.|Experts in Linux/Unix: www.WildOpenSource.com
| |__ / | \| |-< | |-< > / |"Making the bazaar more commonplace"
`----'`-^-'`-'`-'`-'`-' `-' |Check out my new novel: "Cloud Realm" at:
home:www.smith-house.org:8000|http://www.smith-house.org:8000/books/list.html

Wayne Brown

unread,
Apr 18, 2005, 2:19:42 PM4/18/05
to
Jake Schwartz <ja...@magpage.com> wrote:
>
> (slightly off topic...)
>
> The PPC ROM project funds were collected in Richard Nelson's checking
> account, all quarter million dollars of it. No interest was earned and
> I believe this was done with the bank's foreknowledge. Then somehow
> later, the IRS discovered this money and [wrongly] concluded that
> something fishy was going on. Richard ended up going through a
> multi-year nightmare attempting to convince them that this money was
> not income and that no taxes should be due. He ultimately lost his
> battle and paid thousands of dollars. As usual, no good deed went
> unpunished.

Wow... I'd never heard that part of the story before. I'll treasure my
PPC ROM all the more, now that I know of this additional sacrifice made
for its existence...

--
Wayne Brown (HPCC #1104) | "When your tail's in a crack, you improvise
fwb...@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give
| your pelt to the trapper."
"e^(i*pi) = -1" -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, "Silverlock"

VPN

unread,
Apr 18, 2005, 3:16:35 PM4/18/05
to
"Larry Smith" <la...@wildopensource.com> wrote in message
news:U8CdnSrFMY6...@adelphia.com...

> Eric Smith wrote:
>
>> I suspect that the fundamental problem is that too many people don't
>> manage to develop any interest or aptitude for much of *anything* by
>> the time they should start planning a career.
>
> What else can we expect? Our secondary schools have stopped teaching
> any real scholastic material, it's all about "diversity" and "finding
> yourself" and "political correctness". Hell, most schools don't even
> dare mention evolution in biology class - some aren't even allowed to
> under state law! Biology makes absolutely no sense without evolution

Evo is total bull and any scientist should immediately recognize it as such.
Naturally it should be mentioned briefly in schools
as an example what happens when you deny God

> to tie it all together. It's the biological version of the unified
> field theory - yet schools are so chicken-hearted they back off of it
> even in places where teaching it is permitted.

X
Should the follow-up go somewhere else?


Eric Smith

unread,
Apr 18, 2005, 4:02:08 PM4/18/05
to
I wrote:
> Maybe for some professions that's actually OK. But I've *never* seen an
> example of good software written by mediocre programmers. On the other

VPN wrote:
> Maybe it is because the schedules are outrageous!

You're saying that mediocre programmers could write good software if
given more time to do it? I'm dubious.

Eric

VPN

unread,
Apr 18, 2005, 4:10:19 PM4/18/05
to
"Eric Smith" <er...@brouhaha.com> wrote in message
news:qhmzrv7...@ruckus.brouhaha.com...
or am I saying that the schedules are bad
and then they add those coders to the cooking...
???


Al Borowski

unread,
Apr 18, 2005, 8:04:46 PM4/18/05
to

> Evo is total bull and any scientist should immediately recognize it as such.

Why?

Al

BobLogan

unread,
Apr 18, 2005, 10:59:01 PM4/18/05
to
VPN wrote:
>Evo is total bull

Trying to start a flame war, perhaps? :-)

Bob

VPN

unread,
Apr 19, 2005, 12:22:23 AM4/19/05
to
"BobLogan" <bobl...@NOSPAMdirecway.com> wrote in message
news:2b00092e411703ff...@localhost.talkaboutcomputing.com...

> VPN wrote:
>>Evo is total bull
>
> Trying to start a flame war, perhaps? :-)
>
You're 2 smart!
:-)


werty

unread,
Apr 19, 2005, 8:04:53 AM4/19/05
to

The 49G+ does not sell well , very few people know it exists .
This new box is about same . It is not at all competitive .
It lacks the modern features we expect .
The way to excite people is to make it some how "customizable"
and expandable so we can make it competitve .

werty

unread,
Apr 19, 2005, 8:39:42 AM4/19/05
to
See what happens when you do bloat crap
on 49 !
If you had done some elegant s/w on the 49 , today you may have had
some interested contributors .
Still not too late , try using Forth to win back
confidense .

DRT

unread,
Apr 19, 2005, 8:44:21 AM4/19/05