hlp: given a DEC3000/300 - trash, treasure or headache ?
robm
'94 ???)
is this machine trash, treasure-able, headache ?
any modern day OS available that would make this machine a
keeper ?
is it possible to get updated OSF/1 versions (free) ?
comes with VRC21-HA, are there any video cards that will
drive it
on a PC/win2000 ?
TIA
rob
Tim Llewellyn
robm wrote:
> I have been given an Alpha 3000/300 with OSF/1 3.2 (circa
> '94 ???)
>
> is this machine trash, treasure-able, headache ?
>
> any modern day OS available that would make this machine a
> keeper ?
>
> is it possible to get updated OSF/1 versions (free) ?
A hobbyist Tru64 kit is avaible from Compaq.
The latest version of Tru64 (V5) is not supported on 3000 series alpha
machines
HTH
>
>
> comes with VRC21-HA, are there any video cards that will
> drive it
> on a PC/win2000 ?
>
> TIA
> rob
--
Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project
MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.
Email tim.ll...@bbc.co.uk. Home tim.ll...@cableinet.co.uk
I speak for myself only and my views in no way represent those of
MedAS or the BBC.
Chris Petersen
: On Wed, 07 Feb 2001 17:29:54 +0000, Tim Llewellyn
: <tim.ll...@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
:>A hobbyist Tru64 kit is avaible from Compaq.
:>The latest version of Tru64 (V5) is not supported on 3000 series alpha
:>machines
:>HTH
: 5.0A will work, but they dropped the 3000s in 5.1.
: Bill
While I never typically find fault in Bill's commentary, I'll have to
disagree with him slightly here...
The scoop on DEC 3000 Support:
Digital Unix 4.0F - Last version to support *all* TurboChannel framebuffers
available in DEC 3000 machines.
Tru64 5.0, 5.0A - Limited list of supported framebuffers in DEC 3000
machines. This list includes: PMAGD-AA (ZLX-E1), PMAGB-BE (HX+), and
a few others. In the original poster's case, the 3000/300 uses a built-in
framebuffer (either an HX or HX+), both of which were still supported in
Tru64 5.0 & 5.0A.
Tru64 5.1 - Official retirement of *all* TurboChannel support, and thus all
DEC 3000 hardware. However, while not *supported*, Tru64 5.1 will install
and run with full video support on a most configurations that were supported
under Tru64 5.0/5.0A. They just won't support it at Compaq...
Tru64 5.1A - Supposed next release of Tru64, sometime mid-to-late this year.
Rumoured to have removed *ALL* code for TurboChannel, thus making 5.1 the
end of the line for the DEC 3000 hardware.
To answer a few of the original poster's other questions:
A 3000/300 can be a fairly usable desktop machine, provided you feed it
enough RAM (128-256MB). SCSI support is Fast/Narrow, but will handle just
about any capacity drive up to 9gb that I've thrown at one.
A VRC21-HA is an early generation multi-sync monitor, built for DEC by
Mitsubishi. Most good quality PC video cards will drive it, provided you
get the 5BNC to HD15 VGA cable. The HD15 connector on the back of the
VRC21 *DOES NOT* work, don't bother trying it! Later revisions don't even
have this connector, so your's might not...
Chris
--
UCL Workstations, Servers & Networks
A member of the auctions.workstations.org community
Email: ha...@apk.net
Auctions: http://auctions.workstations.org/com/plsql/usersearch?id=ucl_wsn
Roy Omond
> I have been given an Alpha 3000/300 with OSF/1 3.2 (circa
> '94 ???)
>
> is this machine trash, treasure-able, headache ?
>
> any modern day OS available that would make this machine a
> keeper ?
Yep, sure there is. Install VMS on it.
Roy Omond
Blue Bubble Ltd.
Maciej W. Rozycki
> Digital Unix 4.0F - Last version to support *all* TurboChannel framebuffers
> available in DEC 3000 machines.
Nope -- it does not. Version 3.2 was the last one to support PX and PXG
series boards (unsure of MX and CX ones).
--
+ Maciej W. Rozycki, Technical University of Gdansk, Poland +
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
+ e-mail: ma...@ds2.pg.gda.pl, PGP key available +
Todd R. Hunter
: robm wrote:
:> I have been given an Alpha 3000/300 with OSF/1 3.2 (circa
:> '94 ???)
:>
:> is this machine trash, treasure-able, headache ?
:>
:> any modern day OS available that would make this machine a
:> keeper ?
I've got two of them running NetBSD 1.4.2. You can slap a CDROM on
the SCSI bus temporarily to install the system, provided you've at
least written a boot image to one of the SCSI hard drives (For that, I
used "dd" on an Alphastation running linux). I installed via the
serial port and run them without monitors so I don't know anything
about video board support.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Todd R. Hunter, PhD | Astrophysicist * SMA Receiver Laboratory (617)496-7667
60 Garden St. MS-78 | Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory (617)495-7090
Cambridge, MA 02138 | http://cfa-www.harvard.edu/~thunter
Peter LANGSTOEGER
>I have been given an Alpha 3000/300 with OSF/1 3.2 (circa '94 ???)
Really a 3000-300 ? Or a 3000-300L, 3000-300X, 3000-300LX ?
>is this machine trash, treasure-able, headache ?
It is old and slow, yes. The rest is in the eye of the watcher.
>any modern day OS available that would make this machine a keeper ?
Yes, of course. Every OpenVMS Alpha version runs on it.
Become a (TOFKA) DECUS member and get yourself a OpenVMS Hobbyist license
http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/
and kit (eg. order a collection CD at montagar or copy it by a friend)
and install the world's best operating system...
Or you could also buy the OpenVMS Alpha V7.3 External Field Test #2 Kit
for a few bucks and become a VMS beta tester...
LINUX will not run on it because of missing the TurboCHANNEL support in LINUX.
But NetBSD/OpenBSD are said to support these systems for many years now.
>is it possible to get updated OSF/1 versions (free) ?
Yes, though they are not free, only cheap (I heard of $99 for hobbyist use).
But Tru64 (formerly known as Digital UNIX. formerly known as DEC OSF/1,
which is an implemenation of OSF/1 of the Open Software Foundation) is
known for not supporting all sold Alpha or options hardware in their
newest releases. I can't really comment on that, but I'm quite sure,
you can't run the latest and greatest version of Tru64 on a DEC 3000-300
(probably no V5, only V4, but could also be V3 - it depends on the options
hardware).
No problem with OpenVMS (as long as the options hardware was ever
supported on OpenVMS - eg. the PCI (!) graphics adapters 4D40T, 4D50T,
4D51T and 4D60T were not, and I think there were also some TurboCHANNEL
adapters supported by U**X bot not by OpenVMS), because _if_ the option
hardware is no longer supported, it countinues to run, while in Tru64
the code for the older hardware is really removed from the opsys.
>comes with VRC21-HA, are there any video cards that will drive it
>on a PC/win2000 ?
This is a 1280x1024 multisync RGB (sync on green) monitor, so I think
many cards will work. Can't give you PC details, I'm not in this business...
--
Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Tel. +43 1 81111-2651
Network and OpenVMS system manager Fax. +43 1 81111-888
<<< KAPSCH AG Wagenseilgasse 1 E-mail ep...@kapsch.net
A-1121 VIENNA AUSTRIA "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"
BSD Bob the old greybeard BSD freak
> I have been given an Alpha 3000/300 with OSF/1 3.2 (circa
> '94 ???)
> is this machine trash, treasure-able, headache ?
Nice generic machine. Worth keeping for unixy fun.
I run a couple of them with NetBSD, one graphic and
one headless.
IFF you have a floppy on it, you can easily make some boot
floppies and install NetBSD-1.5. It works very well.
If no floppy it has to be netbooted or booted by dding a
bootfs to a spare drive from the existing UNIX. It will
boot off a cd if you have an RRD equivalent CD handy and
can burn a NetBSD alpha cd image from the NetBSD archives.
Note that for initial installation, you will need a serial
terminal out the back serial port (printer port).
Once installed compile the wscons kernel and it will come
up on the graphics monitor.
> comes with VRC21-HA, are there any video cards that will
> drive it
> on a PC/win2000 ?
PUKE! You will be happier with the Digital UNIX or NetBSD.
Bob
UNIX System of the day:
4.2 BSD UNIX #24: Thu Jun 30 01:29:32: PDT 1983
Would you like to play a game?
Chris Petersen
: On 7 Feb 2001, Chris Petersen wrote:
:> Digital Unix 4.0F - Last version to support *all* TurboChannel framebuffers
:> available in DEC 3000 machines.
: Nope -- it does not. Version 3.2 was the last one to support PX and PXG
: series boards (unsure of MX and CX ones).
Correct, I had forgotten about the older PX, PXG, PXG+ and associated
framebuffers (which were mostly carry overs from the DECstation line).
I think 3.2G was the last release to support those.
Chris
--
Chris Petersen
Systems Engineer, Industry Services, Unigraphics Solutions Inc.
Co-founder, auctions.workstations.org
Email: ha...@apk.net
Hoff Hoffman
Follow-ups to this posting have been set to comp.sys.dec.
:I have been given an Alpha 3000/300 with OSF/1 3.2...
:is this machine trash, treasure-able, headache ?
Nice hobbyist box, but various of the DEC 3000 model 300 (please be
careful on the naming, also note that there are several variants of
the model 300 such as the 300x and 300lx) that will have little or
no bus expansion. Those models that do have bus expansion use the
TURBOchannel bus, and TURBOchannel widgets are more difficult to
locate than, say, PCI. SCSI support is available for TURBOchannel.
:any modern day OS available that would make this machine a keeper ?
OpenVMS Alpha will run nicely on this platform, assuming you have
at least 64 MB memory -- 128 MB or more would be preferable...
:is it possible to get updated OSF/1 versions (free) ?
Yes, Hobbyist programs exist for both Tru64 UNIX (the new name
of OSF/1) and OpenVMS Alpha. Pointers on the OpenVMS Hobbyist
program are in the OpenVMS FAQ: www.openvms.compaq.com.
I do not know if current versions of Tru64 UNIX have support for
the DEC 3000 series TURBOchannel systems. (OpenVMS Alpha does.)
:comes with VRC21-HA, are there any video cards that will
:drive it on a PC/win2000 ?
The OpenVMS FAQ has pointers to some of the various sources of
video monitor and graphics controller information.
The VRC21 series monitors are nice ones...
--------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------
Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman OpenVMS Engineering hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com
Mark Garrett
ep...@kapsch.net wrote on 09/02/2001 02:46:
> In article <95rra9$q83$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net>, "robm" <n...@none.com>
> writes:
>> I have been given an Alpha 3000/300 with OSF/1 3.2 (circa '94 ???)
>
> Really a 3000-300 ? Or a 3000-300L, 3000-300X, 3000-300LX ?
>
>> is this machine trash, treasure-able, headache ?
>
> It is old and slow, yes. The rest is in the eye of the watcher.
I'll go along with that Slowwwww. You know when you read install guides
and its say 45 minutes to install, and it only takes our 5. Well this is the
machine they used to work out the 45 on :) Ever thing on this machines
matched the suggested install times, so I can only guess they used one of
these to create all of the install guides with.
Cheers
Mark :)
Thomas Mueller
>
>The latest version of Tru64 (V5) is not supported on 3000 series alpha
>machines
>
>Tim Llewellyn, OpenVMS Infrastructure, Remarcs Project
>MedAS at the BBC, Whiteladies Road, Bristol, UK.
Tim,
Do you know if it's possible or feasible to share a hard disk between two OSes
such as Linux and NetBSD on a Compaq Alpha, as can be done on i386?
I am also curious, how can I get an overview (not a tutorial) on OpenVMS, so I
have an idea what it is? All I know is OpenVMS is 64-bit. Somebody told me
OpenVMS was a Unix variant, but I thought OpenVMS was non-Unix. I was attracted
to Alpha because it's a RISC chip, and because there is no segmented memory or
distinction between conventional and extended memory as on i386.
robm
It will be a hobby machine, adding it to my *history of
computing* collection.
I plan to try OpenVMS (via DECUS) , because it is
*different*, outside of my familiarity domain ...
I will likely try NetBSD also, otherwise i will just use
the OSF/1 v3.2.
It is a 300LX, a paltry 48MB, no floppy.
QUES: any floppy devices that can be retro fitted, is it
SCSI, maybe a SUN floppy ?
Thanks again,
rob
robm
> In article <95rra9$q83$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net>, "robm"
<n...@none.com> writes:
>
> Nice hobbyist box, but various of the DEC 3000 model 300
(please be
> careful on the naming, also note that there are several
variants of
> the model 300 such as the 300x and 300lx) that will have
little or
> no bus expansion
300LX
> OpenVMS Alpha will run nicely on this platform, assuming
you have
> at least 64 MB memory -- 128 MB or more would be
preferable...
i have 48mb and OSF/1 v3.2 seems to churn the drive
is 64mb the absolute minimum to install OpenVMS ?
any chance of finding extra memory for this beast ?
thanks for info,
rob
robm
Chris Petersen wrote in message
<95s7rl$726$1...@plonk.apk.net>...
>
> A 3000/300 can be a fairly usable desktop machine,
provided you feed it
> enough RAM (128-256MB). SCSI support is Fast/Narrow, but
will handle just
> about any capacity drive up to 9gb that I've thrown at
one.
only 48mb, any advice on finding extra memory ?
> A VRC21-HA is an early generation multi-sync monitor,
built for DEC by
> Mitsubishi. Most good quality PC video cards will drive
it, provided you
> get the 5BNC to HD15 VGA cable. The HD15 connector on the
back of the
> VRC21 *DOES NOT* work, don't bother trying it! Later
revisions don't even
> have this connector, so your's might not...
you're correct
*** it has, i already did, it doesn't ***
and there is a 75/1k Ohm Sync switch too.
thanks for info,
rob
Tom Buskey
>
> Tim,
>
> Do you know if it's possible or feasible to share a hard disk
> between two OSes such as Linux and NetBSD on a Compaq Alpha, as can
> be done on i386?
>
A place I used to work had an Alpha (maybe a 3000/???. It was a tower)
that could dual boot OpenVMS and OSF/1 1.0. This was around '93
Hoff Hoffman
..
:300LX
DEC 3000 model 300 LX is a 125 MHz EV4 (21064) class Alpha TURBOchannel
system. Two TURBOchannel slots are available.
:i have 48mb and OSF/1 v3.2 seems to churn the drive
:is 64mb the absolute minimum to install OpenVMS ?
I've run a DEC 3000 model 300 box under OpenVMS V6.2 with as little as
32 MB installed, but it can get painful and slow. Performance got much
better after the memory was upgraded.
:any chance of finding extra memory for this beast ?
For most definitions of the word "any", the answer is clearly yes...
Now as for the likelyhood, you'll want to check with Compaq sales or
with a Compaq Reseller or used-equipment vendor...
MS16-DA (total of 32MB) and MS16-BA (total of 8MB) SIMMs must be
added in pairs, with the pairs of the largest SIMMs in the lowest
slots, and with no intervening empty slots permitted.
IIRC, the model 300 has eight SIMM slots, with slot zero closest
to the back of the box and slot 7 nearest the front. I have not
cracked open a model 300LX to look at this...
Roy Omond
> People, thanks to all for responses.
>
> It will be a hobby machine, adding it to my *history of
> computing* collection.
>
> I plan to try OpenVMS (via DECUS) , because it is
> *different*, outside of my familiarity domain ...
Excellent decision ! Welcome aboard, and kudos to you
to be so open-minded. For any further help wrt VMS,
hang out with a most simply spiffing set of people (i.e.
us :-) in newsgroup comp.os.vms where you'll find the
signal-to-noise-ratio rather, ahem, pleasant !
P.s. despite what everyone is saying wrt 48 Mbytes,
I think you'll find that performance under VMS is
"reasonable".
Best wishes,
Hoff Hoffman
follow-ups set to comp.sys.dec.
..
:QUES: any floppy devices that can be retro fitted, is it
:SCSI, maybe a SUN floppy ?
..
AFAIK, no PC-style FDI was integrated, you'd have to use a SCSI floppy
or a SCSI to FDI adapter.
The usual floppies for this were the RX23 (1.44 MB SCSI HD Floppy) and
the RX26 (2.88MB SCSI ED floppy) -- multiple variants of these floppy
drives exist, you'd want to ensure that you acquired an RX23 with the
SCSI-FDI adapter as some have only FDI, for instance. You may have
success with some other floppy with a SCSI interconnect, donno...
Zane H. Healy
> "Thomas Mueller" <tmue...@bluegrass.net> writes:
>> Do you know if it's possible or feasible to share a hard disk
>> between two OSes such as Linux and NetBSD on a Compaq Alpha, as can
>> be done on i386?
> A place I used to work had an Alpha (maybe a 3000/???. It was a tower)
> that could dual boot OpenVMS and OSF/1 1.0. This was around '93
While it's possible to setup a machine running both OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIX
(modern name for OSF/1), they each need there own disk. I'm not sure if
something like Linux and NetBSD can exist on the same disk or not.
When setting up a dual boot system something to watch out for is the boot
flags! Install Tru64 on a second disk and you might find yourself suddenly
unable to boot OpenVMS.
Zane
Graham Allan
> In article <961b8o$5r3$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net>, "robm" <n...@none.com> writes:
> ..
>
> :any chance of finding extra memory for this beast ?
>
> For most definitions of the word "any", the answer is clearly yes...
> Now as for the likelyhood, you'll want to check with Compaq sales or
> with a Compaq Reseller or used-equipment vendor...
>
> MS16-DA (total of 32MB) and MS16-BA (total of 8MB) SIMMs must be
> added in pairs, with the pairs of the largest SIMMs in the lowest
> slots, and with no intervening empty slots permitted.
>
> IIRC, the model 300 has eight SIMM slots, with slot zero closest
> to the back of the box and slot 7 nearest the front. I have not
> cracked open a model 300LX to look at this...
The 3000 model 300 series will use some, but not all varieties of
generic parity SIMMs. We have several running using ordinary 32Mbyte PC
simm memory (following Hoff's directions above, fitted in pairs starting
from the lowest slots). OpenVMS runs very nicely using 2x32M simms plus
6 original DEC 8M simms, for a total of 112M.
As I say, not all generic simms will work, but if you have
some available for testing, and you're not worried about running such an
"unsupported" configuration (unlikly for a system of this age), they may
be worth a try.
Graham
Harri Haataja
>
>Do you know if it's possible or feasible to share a hard disk between two OSes
>such as Linux and NetBSD on a Compaq Alpha, as can be done on i386?
BSD has disklabels and Linux mostly uses pc-style partition tables.
I think they can coexist and can be hacked to work.
I believe it works just fine.
>I am also curious, how can I get an overview (not a tutorial) on OpenVMS, so I
>have an idea what it is? All I know is OpenVMS is 64-bit. Somebody told me
>OpenVMS was a Unix variant, but I thought OpenVMS was non-Unix. I was attracted
Bull. It's VMS, not Unix.
--
/* [...] Note that 120 sec is defined in the protocol as the maximum *
* possible RTT. I guess we'll have to use something other than TCP *
* to talk to the University of Mars. */
Harri Haataja
>In comp.sys.dec.micro Tom Buskey <tbu...@genuity.net> wrote:
>> "Thomas Mueller" <tmue...@bluegrass.net> writes:
>
>>> Do you know if it's possible or feasible to share a hard disk
>>> between two OSes such as Linux and NetBSD on a Compaq Alpha, as can
>>> be done on i386?
>
>> A place I used to work had an Alpha (maybe a 3000/???. It was a tower)
>> that could dual boot OpenVMS and OSF/1 1.0. This was around '93
>
>While it's possible to setup a machine running both OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIX
>(modern name for OSF/1), they each need there own disk. I'm not sure if
>something like Linux and NetBSD can exist on the same disk or not.
Linux supports (at least after a kernel rebuild or a initrd) a wide
variety of partition/slice/label systems, so as long as you manage to
boot milo from somewhere (ARM at least? SRM?), it should dualboot
with anything..
>When setting up a dual boot system something to watch out for is the boot
>flags! Install Tru64 on a second disk and you might find yourself suddenly
>unable to boot OpenVMS.
.. unless the other one decides to fall apart =)
--
md5 sum: 07394dd242eb331be403826f2df92bbf