Best C64 demo ever?
Paul Allen Panks
Does anyone have a consensus favorite for "Best Commodore 64 Demo Ever"?
Regards,
Paul Allen Panks
dun...@yahoo.com
--
pa...@sdf.lonestar.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
MagerValp
PAP> Does anyone have a consensus favorite for "Best Commodore 64 Demo
PAP> Ever"?
No.
--
___ . . . . . + . . o
_|___|_ + . + . + . Per Olofsson, arkadspelare
o-o . . . o + Mage...@cling.gu.se
- + + . http://www.cling.gu.se/~cl3polof/
Riccardo Rubini
>>>>>> "PAP" == Paul Allen Panks <pa...@sdf.lonestar.org> writes:
>
>> Does anyone have a consensus favorite for "Best Commodore 64 Demo
>
> No.
To be honest I was expecting replies more adequate to the ingenuity of the
question, like "My demo is the best ever and all others do suck". =)
Riccardo
hannibal
I am amazed, this is the 3-rd lame question asked by Paul (aka the
Questionofille) in this week.
why doesn't this guy do a check by himslef and scan the internet for
his answers. I simply don't get it. And he said he was't a troll, yeah
right ...
"Riccardo Rubini" <rub...@despammed.com> wrote in message news:<5wwVa.42221$Za4.1...@news2.tin.it>...
Riccardo Rubini
> Hy
>
> I am amazed, this is the 3-rd lame question asked by Paul (aka the
> Questionofille) in this week.
well, somebody said questions are never dumb, but sometimes answers are. I
honestly prefer his "lame" questions against his deranged dreams reviews and
the periodical "adventures of a brain scarred" diary update.
Sometimes, something good and interesting might take place out of this
ingenuity.
> why doesn't this guy do a check by himslef and scan the internet for
> his answers.
Oh, but that's half of the fun :-) And then everybody knows search engines
are just the virtual counterpart of ambience decoration.
> I simply don't get it. And he said he was't a troll, yeah
> right ...
Well, his judgement on the matter isn't supposed to be particularly
objective, don't you think ? :-)
Riccardo
Paul Allen Panks
Paul
wildstar
news:4f35449c.03072...@posting.google.com:
> Hy
>
> I am amazed, this is the 3-rd lame question asked by Paul (aka the
> Questionofille) in this week.
>
> why doesn't this guy do a check by himslef and scan the internet for
> his answers. I simply don't get it. And he said he was't a troll, yeah
> right ...
Relax, sure it may be lame but search engines are not perfect. Though, I
rather have him ask questions pertaining to the commodore in
comp.sys.cbm.
What he is doing is absolutely ok in newsgroups. So guys, quit bitching
and whining like a bunch of girls. He is doing just fine. It is better to
have things like this then lack of discussion. Hey, comp.sys.cbm was
about discussing Commodore. Chatting about it and things entertaining or
lame doesn't matter. Hey, its about time that people share their
knowledge. It was people who were open to share their knowledge that got
people like you where you are at. Not the people who bitched and flamed
you.
Anyhow, my suggestion for Paul is to post less threads. USENET is about
discussing. Trolling is about getting emotional reaction. Paul is not
attempting to anger you. He is not interested in you or anyone else
flaming. He is interested in people sharing their knowledge. Give the
young man a break. (Note: Don't break any bones). His questions here have
been rather legitimate. Asking you and others if it was a fair deal to
buy an Amiga 2000 is quite reasonable but it should be posted in an Amiga
newsgroup. Though if he asked about a C64 deal, then the subject matter
for that would be more fitting to *this* newsgroup. Paul Panks, take note
of this. Try posting a new thread once or twice a week at most. Maybe
once every 3-5 months, create 3-4 new threads during a week. Let's try to
not be anti-social. I actually seen his programs.
So everyone, be kinder if possible. While, try to make friendly
suggestions to him if he is getting off-topic.
Paul Allen Panks
C64 demo ever, which is subjective, but I believe there can be a consensus
on this one.
For instance, has anyone seen the demo Reprieve? That was a nice one on
the 64. I've also seen some very nice demos where more than 16 sprites --
that's right, more than 16 sprites -- where onscreen at once!
The raster IRQ effects of the VIC-II being what they are, I'm certain
*someone* out there has a demo that is the consensus pick of best C64 demo
ever.
Sincerely,
Paul Allen Panks
dun...@yahoo.com
hannibal
My intentions weren't mean at all, and I apologise for anything rude I
might have said. Maybe I didn't expressed myself correctly, english is
not my native language.
Only thing I wanted to say was that Paul was asking questions like a
Tommy machine gun, question here, question there. I have no problem
with this, I too did just the same thing a few years ago when I found
the online Commodore comunity and scene. I was just a bit annoyed by
the fact that Paul seemed to only start the thread and that's all, no
further participation to the discusion he started.
Discusing things like 'which is the best demo' is a very subjective
thing. You just can't do that, since everybody has different tastes.
Is like asking which is the best music? Movie? Picture? You see the
point?
Now I try to imagine what was the purpose of that question? As I see
Paul Panks
is on Lemon forums also. I know certainly that there, a lot of time
this question has been asked. Why ask it here again? There are not a
lot of sceners on comp.sys.cbm (I wonder why) anyway.
If Paul will actually respond to this, if he has a pal C64 I will
answer to his question regarding demos from my perspective.
So Paul, please go on with your asking, but please first try to do a
little research on the net and see if you can find your answer by
yourself. If not then ask here, but please get involved in the threads
you start, otherwise people feel like they talked in van for you.
Mihai kinder and not antisocial at all :)
Paul Allen Panks
See response intermixed with this thread.
(See below)
hannibal <hann...@videocam.net.au> wrote:
> Hy
> My intentions weren't mean at all, and I apologise for anything rude I
> might have said. Maybe I didn't expressed myself correctly, english is
> not my native language.
> Only thing I wanted to say was that Paul was asking questions like a
> Tommy machine gun, question here, question there. I have no problem
> with this, I too did just the same thing a few years ago when I found
> the online Commodore comunity and scene. I was just a bit annoyed by
> the fact that Paul seemed to only start the thread and that's all, no
> further participation to the discusion he started.
That is true. I like to start discussions. No, I am not a troll. But I do
enjoy seeing how people respond to C64/128 related topics. I'm very
creative in how I word things, to make sure it stays as on-topic as
possible in my post.
> Discusing things like 'which is the best demo' is a very subjective
> thing. You just can't do that, since everybody has different tastes.
> Is like asking which is the best music? Movie? Picture? You see the
> point?
I think a better choice, in retrospect, would have been "Top 10 C64 Demos
of all-time". That is less subjective, and can be backed up by further
demos. Seeing only NTSC-fixed demos, I can honestly say that the best were
by Norwegian and Swedish groups. Most of the demos I have seen hail from
Norway, Sweden or Denmark.
> Now I try to imagine what was the purpose of that question? As I see
> Paul Panks
> is on Lemon forums also. I know certainly that there, a lot of time
> this question has been asked. Why ask it here again? There are not a
> lot of sceners on comp.sys.cbm (I wonder why) anyway.
This is true.
> If Paul will actually respond to this, if he has a pal C64 I will
> answer to his question regarding demos from my perspective.
I would love to hear your background in demos. I have an entire disk
box devoted just to demos and SID music.
> So Paul, please go on with your asking, but please first try to do a
> little research on the net and see if you can find your answer by
> yourself. If not then ask here, but please get involved in the threads
> you start, otherwise people feel like they talked in van for you.
I agree. I will promise to start responding more.
Anders Carlsson
> That is true. I like to start discussions.
Something like the Weetomuncher in comp.sys.sinclair then. From time
to time, half a dozen new, more or less on-topic threads appear, and
a few will be kept alive with responses.
Personally, I haven't seen many C64 demos more recent than 1987-ish,
although I know there have been major technical improvements since
then. Even only counting the old days, I can't say I have a favorite,
as demos is not something I watch very often.
--
Anders Carlsson
Maciej Witkowiak
> Personally, I haven't seen many C64 demos more recent than 1987-ish,
What a pity. There was a complete revolution in demo design, style, effects
during all those years. Go to one of scene ftp sites, download some stuff
and enjoy. It's no more 80's style logo at the top, effect in the middle and a
scroll at the bottom.
> although I know there have been major technical improvements since
> then. Even only counting the old days, I can't say I have a favorite,
> as demos is not something I watch very often.
Oh, you miss one of the best parts of C64 software :)
ytm
--
Najlepsza sygnatura to brak sygnatury.
"Patryk 'Silver Dream !' Łogiewa"
[...]
>
> So Paul, please go on with your asking, but please first try to do a
> little research on the net and see if you can find your answer by
> yourself. If not then ask here, but please get involved in the threads
> you start, otherwise people feel like they talked in van for you.
>
Sometimes even like in a huge lorry... ;-)
wildstar
> Hy
>
> My intentions weren't mean at all, and I apologise for anything rude I
> might have said. Maybe I didn't expressed myself correctly, english is
> not my native language.
>
> Only thing I wanted to say was that Paul was asking questions like a
> Tommy machine gun, question here, question there. I have no problem
> with this, I too did just the same thing a few years ago when I found
> the online Commodore comunity and scene. I was just a bit annoyed by
> the fact that Paul seemed to only start the thread and that's all, no
> further participation to the discusion he started.
>
> Discusing things like 'which is the best demo' is a very subjective
> thing. You just can't do that, since everybody has different tastes.
> Is like asking which is the best music? Movie? Picture? You see the
> point?
<<< Snip >>>
No prob. It just seems that people tend to have somewhat "rude" sounding
messages. I doubt it was meant to be mean. I understand that English is
not your native tongue. Nor is Dutch or German or some other language is
my native tongue. For me, it is American (English). Anyway, I fully
understand what you are saying. What is the best piece of Art ? Too
subjective.
Paul Panks, Mihai has a very good point and you should take note of it.
Also Mihai is a very talented in programming (oops, I should say
skilled). I believe that he also is the one that compiled the largest or
one of the largest composition of ML documents and tutorials. Someday, I
would not mind seeing him in person and chat about a few things. Yet, I
would have wait until the opportunity arises.
wildstar
news:bg7sgs$29e$2...@chessie.cirr.com:
> Hey Hannibal,
>
> See response intermixed with this thread.
> (See below)
>
> That is true. I like to start discussions. No, I am not a troll. But I
> do enjoy seeing how people respond to C64/128 related topics. I'm very
> creative in how I word things, to make sure it stays as on-topic as
> possible in my post.
>
> I think a better choice, in retrospect, would have been "Top 10 C64
> Demos of all-time". That is less subjective, and can be backed up by
> further demos. Seeing only NTSC-fixed demos, I can honestly say that
> the best were by Norwegian and Swedish groups. Most of the demos I
> have seen hail from Norway, Sweden or Denmark.
Actually, that can be construed as subjective. Better yet, "Top 10 C64
Demos downloaded on the Internet". Well, that is hard to say due to the
available technology and the fact that there is multiple sources of
downloading. What may be reasonable is "What is your top 10 favorite c64
demos". This would make it easier for people to logically answer the
question. Words liks "Best" is a word that is subjective. What are we
measuring. How do we measure. My point is, demos are pieces of art in
computers. There is not such thing as "Best piece of art" that is not a
subject of taste.
> This is true.
>
> I would love to hear your background in demos. I have an entire disk
> box devoted just to demos and SID music.
> I agree. I will promise to start responding more.
hannibal
Ok Paul I am glad you agree with what I said. I will tell you what are
the best 10 demos in my eyes. As you will see all of them are for PAL
only. If you don't have a PAL C64, download WinVice 1.12 (be sure to
turn on 'true drive emulation') from the net and use it to see the
demos.
Here it goes. This is highly subjective, other people might tell you
something else, but this is one of the most popular Top10 imho.
1. Krestology/Crest - this demo is absolutly amazing. It has a perfect
flow, code, music, awsome graphics by Deekay. Crest has the best guys
in all the fields (coding, music, graphics), Crossbow is the absolute
God of C64 coding, Vic guru, ... some say he's an alien because
nobody on this planet knows so much about C64 coding as this guy does
:) New graphical modes were invented in this demo, UFLI, SHFLI and
SHIFLI, you must see the quality they produce, it's simply amazing.
This demo is a bit like a modern Dutch Breeze/Blackmail (keep your
hands up at the Soft&Wet part !!! and if you are curious and want to
find the secret part try licking the joystick ports !!! Watch them
both and you'll see what I mean.
2. Deus Ex Machina/Crest - the most recent C64 demo by the wizards of
Crest. I can only use superlatives when I talk about Crest demos. The
main guy behind this demo was Graham/Oxyron/Crest, he is another
master, just like Crossbow. You'll see a lot of impressive effects and
graphics in this demo.
3. Royal Arte 100%/Booze Design - demo coded by HCL. This guy is very
close to the 2 guys above, he knows a lot about C64 coding and his
demos are improving everytime. I love this demo. This started a great
fight between HCL and Crossbow. HCL did an effect (vertical
rasterbars) and he said that he tried to improve it by putting it in
the side borders. As he couldn't do it he said that this thing was
impossible. 'Impossible' was the magic word, this sparked Crossbow to
do 'Demus Interruptus' where he showed HCL how to do it :). This demo
also featured a very hardcore effect, 5 sprites over a IFLI picture
(quite interesting one too) !!!!. HCL hurt in his pride didn't took
lots of time and he backfired with his answer ,'Interruptus
Retriggerus' where he further improved the vertical raster effect.
This 'fight' was very creative and interesting.
4.+h2k/Plush - demo coded by Krill. This guy is the drive guru, he is
the absolute master of 'loaders'. A lot of cool effects in this demo
too.
5. Insomnia/64ever - coded by Raver (the best demos in the last 2
years)
6. Triage 3/Smash Design - coded by AEG. You'll get some nice 4*4 orgy
!!! Try to watch it from farther :))
7. Digital Magic/Crest - coded by Dane. This one is poetry in motion.
It features a new graphical mode from the mighty Crest. It's called
XFLI. Just check it out and be amazed. The music is also very
beautiful as Dane is one of the best Sid composers ever (check HVSC
collection for his tunes)
8. 2-nd Reality/Smash Design - coded by AEG. This is the actual C64
conversion of the legendary PC demo with the same name. Too bad he
decided to quit C64 scene. He was working on Turrican 3 too :((((
9. Mathematica/Reflex - the name says it all :)
10. Soiled Legacy/Resource - coded by Oswald
After you checked those demos make sure you also see those too:
Krestyron/Crest, Krestage2/Crest, Oneder/oxyron (nice duck),
Parts/Oxyron, Downfall/Oxyron, Comalight12/Oxyron, Tower
power/Camelot, Wildfire2/Breeze, Love/Agony, Altered States 50%/Taboo,
Follow the sign3/Byterappers, Camel Park/Camelot, Wonderland9/Censor,
Embryo/Padua, Total Epygt/Extend (bugfixed by Crossbow), The last
reactor3/React, Seal of Focalor/Megastyle (the scarriest C64 demo ever
!, use old sid to hear the digis), Red Storm/Triad, La linea/Breeze
(superb cartoonish animations), Reanim8ted/Hitman (best animations I
ever saw), and many more ....
Leech them from: www.c64.ch, ftp://c64.rulez.org,
ftp://ftp.elysium.pl/, ftp://ftp.padua.org ....
Let's all hope that Meet Crest/Crest will be released someday, they
are working since '96 on it !!!
And if you have a Pal C128 (with 64 Kb VDC)+80 col.monitor don't miss
Risen from Oblivion/Crest, you'll see what your C128 can really do
!!!! If this demo would have competed with the C64 demos, it would
have been for sure in the top 3.
I hope everybody who didn't saw those demos will do now and
culturalize themselves with this part of C64, the most important anway
... everything else is dead and the Retro movement sucks big time !!!
And Paul to wash you sins, please respond to this thread after you saw
them, to know at least that I didn't wasted my time with this.
Although this is about demos, I also want you all to go to
http://c64.rulez.org/onslaught/legal/speed.zip and download Speed
music collection. Turn the volume up and let yourself amazed (use new
sid for multispeed tunes and old sid for digi tunes) !!!!
Increase da peace :)
Mihai
Peter van Merkerk
After reading you top ten I was left wondering what those graphic modes
UFLI, SHFLI and
SHIFLI, XFLI actually are? I know about FLI and IFLI, but could only find an
itialian explanation for the modes you mentioned. Though I did spend my
holidays in Italy this year, I could not make much of it .
--
Peter van Merkerk
peter.van.merkerk(at)dse.nl
Sam Gillett
Anders Carlsson wrote ...
>Personally, I haven't seen many C64 demos more recent than 1987-ish,
>although I know there have been major technical improvements since
>then. Even only counting the old days, I can't say I have a favorite,
>as demos is not something I watch very often.
I am not really into watching demos either. However, one of my favorites
was an interactive demo named (IIRC) Time Crystal. It wasn't by a group,
but a single programmer, whose name I have forgotten.
Best regards,
Sam Gillett aka Mars Probe @ Starship Intrepid 1-972-221-4088
Last 8-bit BBS in the Dallas area. Commodore lives!
Maciej Witkowiak
> After reading you top ten I was left wondering what those graphic modes
> UFLI, SHFLI and
> SHIFLI, XFLI actually are? I know about FLI and IFLI, but could only find an
AFAIR SHIFLI and SHFLI are variations of FLI/IFLI bitmap with a layer of
sprites over it for extra colours. Sprites can be in hires/multi mode and
interlaced too.
Christian Link
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 20:18:19 GMT, "Sam Gillett" <samgi...@msn.com>
wrote:
>I am not really into watching demos either. However, one of my favorites
>was an interactive demo named (IIRC) Time Crystal. It wasn't by a group,
>but a single programmer, whose name I have forgotten.
Jim Sachs of Sachs Enterprises. Wasn't actually a demo, but a
(partially playable, even) preview of a game of the same name, which
sadly never saw the light of day.
I think my copy of it has been posted to the binaries group some years
ago; maybe you can still find it. It's the "most complete" one
available, I believe.
Greetings,
Chris.
wildstar
emulator to the point in which it really go as slow as 2fps at points. This
is really the showing of how intensive this demo is. It is just AMAZING!!!!
YES - VDC. I am talking about VDC. Crest shatters the myth. Right on guys.
wildstar
Currently, I do not have the X1541 cable system.
I love to run it on my C128-D.
YES, it has 64K VDC.
Sam Gillett
Christian Link wrote ...
>On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 20:18:19 GMT, "Sam Gillett" <samgi...@msn.com>
>wrote:
>
>>I am not really into watching demos either. However, one of my favorites
>>was an interactive demo named (IIRC) Time Crystal. It wasn't by a group,
>>but a single programmer, whose name I have forgotten.
>
>Jim Sachs of Sachs Enterprises. Wasn't actually a demo, but a
>(partially playable, even) preview of a game of the same name, which
>sadly never saw the light of day.
Yep, that's the one I was thinking of. The use of color in the background
is fantastic. And the multiplexed sprites and animation used for the
Tyrannosaurus Rex are too. Even if it isn't a demo in the traditional
sense, it makes great use of the C64's graphic capabilities.
>I think my copy of it has been posted to the binaries group some years
>ago; maybe you can still find it. It's the "most complete" one
>available, I believe.
The version I have on my PC may be the one you uploaded, if you uploaded it
in .d64 format. I also have what I think is the original .sda on a Real
Thing(tm) disk. I downloaded that one from Q-Link back when it was one of
the hot downloads there.
hannibal
> No prob. It just seems that people tend to have somewhat "rude" sounding
> messages. I doubt it was meant to be mean. I understand that English is
> not your native tongue. Nor is Dutch or German or some other language is
> my native tongue. For me, it is American (English). Anyway, I fully
> understand what you are saying. What is the best piece of Art ? Too
> subjective.
Yes, but also people tend to be over defensive. If someone was rude to
you don't act like a baby and say 'I'll take all my toys and leave',
stay up and fight for your ideas and beliefs, otherwise you'll get
laughed on.
> Paul Panks, Mihai has a very good point and you should take note of it.
> Also Mihai is a very talented in programming (oops, I should say
> skilled).
Very talented in programming, looool :)) I wish man :)
I believe that he also is the one that compiled the largest or
> one of the largest composition of ML documents and tutorials.
Yes that's true, I compiled that monster (over 22Mb unzipped), but all
that I did was just to gather the existing materials from the net in
one place. I am not very talented in programming :), yet !, we'll talk
in a few years :), but I am learning from the tutorials I have.
Someday, I
> would not mind seeing him in person and chat about a few things. Yet, I
> would have wait until the opportunity arises.
Well if you have a trip to Romania and promise me that you'll not talk
about your 3d OS :))) ofcourse we'll have a chat, every C= addict is
my friend. Hell I'd talk to anyone interested in the C=, I am the only
guy in this country that still has an active interest in this amazing
machine :(
Later,
Mihai
hannibal
> Mihai, do you have the 5.25" disks versions of the Risen from Oblivion.
> Currently, I do not have the X1541 cable system.
Come on dude, X1541 is so easy to build by yourself. I made myself a
XE1541 in 2 hours (this is way better than X1541 as it works with all
parallel ports and it's better for multitasking OS's. It works great
with Win98 Se, with XP It has issues, you need aditional program to
make it work, but it's not very complicated). You only need to get a
cable, the connectors and 4 diodes. It's dead easy to do:)
If you can't make one (I doubt that you can do a 3dOS if you can't
master a Xe1541 :)) )I assume you have a C128 setup. Tell me what
drives you have so I can offer you the solution.
Get the .d64 of this demo (it is PAL only, do you have a PAL C128?).
The demo doesn't work with Vice because the C128 emulation is not very
advanced. And this being a Crest demo you can imagine that it pushes
everything over the limit :)
Now if you have a Fd2000 things will be very easy. You need D64Copy by
Crossbow :). This is the fastest way of transfer existing (why I am
amazed, it's coded by the master himself)!!! You need a 3.5 disk with
the .d64 on it (the disk must be MSdos formatted). Now get your c128
in c128 mode. Load the D64copy program, (switch to 1 mhz if you have
scpu. Put the Msdos disk in the Fd, select the .d64 to extract and
voila. In less than 1 min. the d64 is extracted. BTW you need a 1541
as a destination drive, the program is custom made for those 2 drives,
fd2000 and 1541.
If you don't have Fd2000 there are many other alternatives.
You first need to get your .d64 from MSdos disk to a CBM format. There
are many ways. You can use: Unzip by Eroll Smith or Pasi's version
(this is the best alternative, as it extracts the .d64 from .zip
file), you only need to transfer the .zip to CBM format with Big blue
reader, Little red reader, you can use Geos/Wheels+GeoDos+GeoBeap
(this is a full Geos solution, if you have a SCPU you can copy the
.d64 and GeoBeap in the SCPU ram and extract them there, in less than
30 seconds it's done, then copy it to a 5.25 disk) and there is
another program written in basic for this transfer.
> I love to run it on my C128-D.
>
> YES, it has 64K VDC.
You'll get all the colors and the biggest resolution then :). I tell
this demo made my jaw fall. The 1-st side of the disk has the c64
version (it works only on an c128 in c64 mode). The Crest guys made
new colors !!!! there is an amazing full screen (when I say full
screen I mean it really full, like no borders at all, upper and
sideborder) with a cool picture featuring the new colors. Also it uses
the 60 Hz IFLI format (newly discovered, it uses this bit on the c128
and it can display ifli's at 64 hz on a pal machine, heavily readucing
the flicker, the uses of this thing are not yet fully discovered). The
2-nd side is for c128 in c128 mode in 80 col. Those guys actually
coded the tools (the graphic tools) for it because no one has done
something like this until then.
Somebody must do a high quality divx movie with this demo for the NTSC
unfortunates :)
Later,
Mihai
hannibal
> After reading you top ten I was left wondering what those graphic modes
> UFLI, SHFLI and
> SHIFLI, XFLI actually are? I know about FLI and IFLI, but could only find an
> itialian explanation for the modes you mentioned. Though I did spend my
> holidays in Italy this year, I could not make much of it .
I know that site, Commodore Italian pages no? :) Very cool. Try
passing it through Google translation services (go to language tools).
But better check the original site
http://www.studiostyle.sk/dmagic/gallery/gfxmodes.htm
It doesn't have all the gfx modes, there's no AFLI and no XFLI, but
read C=hacking magazine for the descriptions ...
Later,
Mihai
Peter Karlsson
> I think a better choice, in retrospect, would have been "Top 10 C64 Demos
> of all-time".
Have a look at the C64 Scener Database (CSDb) over at
<URL:http://noname.c64.org/csdb/>. Among other things, it has a top list
for the demos which have received the highest score.
--
\\//
Peter - http://www.softwolves.pp.se/
I do not read or respond to mail with HTML attachments.
wildstar
Sorry for top posting, I'll tell you my C-128 setup here. I actually have
2-3 maybe 4 C-128 flats and a couple of c64s (maybe 3). The main C= I have
is the NTSC C-128D which I do have a CMD FD-2000, 1750 REU (might be a rare
CBM made 2 MByter - NO FCC sticker - either way its expandable to 2 MB),
then there is the built in 1571. I also have that CMD 2+1 port expander.
PS: It also has the switches on front for resetting and drive number
changing. (A little mod) I wish to get a JiffyDOS chipset for it.
Now, only if I can remember the URL for the docs on this stuff.
Rest of my responses will be below (intermixed with your message):
hann...@videocam.net.au (hannibal) wrote in
news:4f35449c.03073...@posting.google.com:
> Hy
>
> Come on dude, X1541 is so easy to build by yourself. I made myself a
> XE1541 in 2 hours (this is way better than X1541 as it works with all
> parallel ports and it's better for multitasking OS's. It works great
> with Win98 Se, with XP It has issues, you need aditional program to
> make it work, but it's not very complicated). You only need to get a
> cable, the connectors and 4 diodes. It's dead easy to do:)
>
> If you can't make one (I doubt that you can do a 3dOS if you can't
> master a Xe1541 :)) )I assume you have a C128 setup. Tell me what
> drives you have so I can offer you the solution.
I have 1541s,1541-II, external 1571 and a built-in one on the NTSC c-128D
with a little hardware mod, 1581, FD-2000. I know it wouldn't be hard to
make one of those when I once saw the diagrams. I seemed to forgot what URL
it was for the wiring diagrams.
> Get the .d64 of this demo (it is PAL only, do you have a PAL C128?).
> The demo doesn't work with Vice because the C128 emulation is not very
> advanced. And this being a Crest demo you can imagine that it pushes
> everything over the limit :)
Dang, is there a mod to fake PAL mode on a NTSC c128D ? (maybe I am hoping
too much) Guess the C128D is NTSC. Ok, anyone interested in making a small
NTSC fixer. I seen a few PAL demos ported to NTSC. The porting process can
be a pain in the butt to convert over. Often the result is that part of the
screen is above and below the top and bottom of the screen. So to see the
extra rater lines on a 1702 monitor, you need to adjust the vertical hold
and play around with it. With the new VDC video modes uses in "Risen",
hmmm... NTSC fixing - this can be quite interesting.
> Now if you have a Fd2000 things will be very easy. You need D64Copy by
> Crossbow :). This is the fastest way of transfer existing (why I am
> amazed, it's coded by the master himself)!!! You need a 3.5 disk with
> the .d64 on it (the disk must be MSdos formatted). Now get your c128
> in c128 mode. Load the D64copy program, (switch to 1 mhz if you have
> scpu. Put the Msdos disk in the Fd, select the .d64 to extract and
> voila. In less than 1 min. the d64 is extracted. BTW you need a 1541
> as a destination drive, the program is custom made for those 2 drives,
> fd2000 and 1541.
Well, Good thing I have the mod so I can change the built-in 1571's device
number. Yes I have several 1541s and a 1541-II (I think 2 or 3)
> If you don't have Fd2000 there are many other alternatives.
>
> You first need to get your .d64 from MSdos disk to a CBM format. There
> are many ways. You can use: Unzip by Eroll Smith or Pasi's version
> (this is the best alternative, as it extracts the .d64 from .zip
> file), you only need to transfer the .zip to CBM format with Big blue
> reader, Little red reader, you can use Geos/Wheels+GeoDos+GeoBeap
> (this is a full Geos solution, if you have a SCPU you can copy the
> .d64 and GeoBeap in the SCPU ram and extract them there, in less than
> 30 seconds it's done, then copy it to a 5.25 disk) and there is
> another program written in basic for this transfer.
I do have the files already in a .d64 files and not in a .zip compression.
I also have the .zip files still.
> You'll get all the colors and the biggest resolution then :). I tell
> this demo made my jaw fall. The 1-st side of the disk has the c64
> version (it works only on an c128 in c64 mode). The Crest guys made
> new colors !!!! there is an amazing full screen (when I say full
> screen I mean it really full, like no borders at all, upper and
> sideborder) with a cool picture featuring the new colors. Also it uses
> the 60 Hz IFLI format (newly discovered, it uses this bit on the c128
> and it can display ifli's at 64 hz on a pal machine, heavily readucing
> the flicker, the uses of this thing are not yet fully discovered). The
> 2-nd side is for c128 in c128 mode in 80 col. Those guys actually
> coded the tools (the graphic tools) for it because no one has done
> something like this until then.
>
> Somebody must do a high quality divx movie with this demo for the NTSC
> unfortunates :)
>
> Later,
> Mihai
Can CREST make a fix for NTSC ? Well, I haven't been able to get a PAL 128D
then again I must have been unfortunate to live in US. Then again, it would
be kicking to work this demo in NTSC. Since in NTSC - we are at 60 Hz from
the get go and that would be something like 72 Hz on an NTSC machine if I
take the figures porportionally. Now, I rember there are methods to fix a
PAL demo to run on an NTSC machine but I can remeber that as being a pain
in the butt sometimes. The only problem with divx may be compression loss.
Hate looking at pixelated screens due to lossy compressions.
Anyway, it will clearly be worth putting those .d64 demos I have on a real
C=. Just have to wait until someone makes a perfectly clear video image of
"Risen" before viewing. The cheapest option would be to make an NTSC fix of
this demo and pray it works. This will require taking a VERY close look at
the code and see how this is being processed. I'll probably make an extra
copy to mess with and play around until I get the video modes and images to
display. We are talking VDC mode. VIC-II mode - hmmm, might be worth the
look.
Anyhow, the coding of these guys are quite impressive.
wildstar
news:4f35449c.03073...@posting.google.com:
> Yes, but also people tend to be over defensive. If someone was rude to
> you don't act like a baby and say 'I'll take all my toys and leave',
> stay up and fight for your ideas and beliefs, otherwise you'll get
> laughed on.
Yeah, true. I had to myself. Otherwise, I would have left if I cry like a
baby and run.
> Very talented in programming, looool :)) I wish man :)
Mihai,maybe when your 50 - 60 years old, you be like Jim. Jim is the man.
I bet you he is blushing at his keyboard. Paul Panks, it is worth your
time to read some of Jim Butterfield's writing.
> Yes that's true, I compiled that monster (over 22Mb unzipped), but all
> that I did was just to gather the existing materials from the net in
> one place. I am not very talented in programming :), yet !, we'll talk
> in a few years :), but I am learning from the tutorials I have.
Give yourself 30-40 years. You'll be a guru like Jim.
> Well if you have a trip to Romania and promise me that you'll not talk
> about your 3d OS :))) ofcourse we'll have a chat, every C= addict is
> my friend. Hell I'd talk to anyone interested in the C=, I am the only
> guy in this country that still has an active interest in this amazing
> machine :(
No prob, as long as you don't ask about it. Anyway, it is not something
I'll talk about forever. Of course if someone was to ask me then you
know. Anyway, you are welcome to show up anytime in the US. Maybe, if you
can get a chance sometime in the future, you can get a plane to New York,
New York then another plan to Portland,Oregon. Then you will not be far
from Jeri's place. I will either be in Astoria,Oregon (1.5 hr. drive
frome Portland) of within a 30-40 minute drive from the Salem, Oregon.
Which is about an 1 hr. south of Portland. If you ever in Portland,
Oregon (all in the US) then maybe ask Jeri to pick you up.
Floris van den Berg
news:6hCVa.30018$Df5.9...@news1.tin.it...
> hannibal wrote:
> > Hy
> >
> > I am amazed, this is the 3-rd lame question asked by Paul (aka the
> > Questionofille) in this week.
>
> well, somebody said questions are never dumb, but sometimes answers are. I
> honestly prefer his "lame" questions against his deranged dreams reviews
and
> the periodical "adventures of a brain scarred" diary update.
According to Southpark questions are never dumb, but people are.
Floris
Floris van den Berg
news:bg5ejl$g1n$1...@chessie.cirr.com...
> Hello,
>
> Does anyone have a consensus favorite for "Best Commodore 64 Demo Ever"?
A demo that still impresses me is one called "Ash & Dave". It features a
two-sided 'card' (where one is a picture of some guy (presumably Ash or
Dave) and the other side is a gray-ish logo) which is rotating in 3d. All
this is accompanied with some groovy music. Very well done.
Another demo that i like is called "Double Density". It's basically a couple
of copperbars and some horizontally moving stars plus some moving text. You
could rotate the text screens by pressing the spacebar. The music makes this
demo excellent.
Floris
"Patryk 'Silver Dream !' Łogiewa"
> Christian Link wrote ...
>
>
>>On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 20:18:19 GMT, "Sam Gillett" <samgi...@msn.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I am not really into watching demos either. However, one of my favorites
>>>was an interactive demo named (IIRC) Time Crystal. It wasn't by a group,
>>>but a single programmer, whose name I have forgotten.
>>
>>Jim Sachs of Sachs Enterprises. Wasn't actually a demo, but a
>>(partially playable, even) preview of a game of the same name, which
>>sadly never saw the light of day.
>
>
> Yep, that's the one I was thinking of. The use of color in the background
> is fantastic. And the multiplexed sprites and animation used for the
> Tyrannosaurus Rex are too. Even if it isn't a demo in the traditional
> sense, it makes great use of the C64's graphic capabilities.
>
>
Yes. Sachs was (is?) IMHO one of the most brilliant computer graphicians
of all the times (just after DZ from my group ;-) , he was able to
create (over)realistic images out of the very few colors/pixels the
machines had at the time. He contributed also to the Amiga. The great
poster and ad-image of the paint program "Brilliance" undoubtedly bears
his touch of class. Also, not that long ago I was strolling across a big
techno-shop with (literally) hundreds of screens attached to some crappy
windowz pc(s) and there was a screen saver with aquarium running on
it. Nothing special, one can think, but there was just something that
made me approach the screen and have a closer look. I knew what I was
looking for, and I found it! The tiny, styly "SACHS" in the corners of
all the screens...
Remember the crappy game of UFO landing in front of the white house? All
crap except the gfx, which was enough to have it on screen for a long
time... Just him again.
"Patryk 'Silver Dream !' Łogiewa"
[...]
>
> And if you have a Pal C128 (with 64 Kb VDC)
Does this mean, there are different chips? Different RAM configs? Or
what? How to recognise those? Were some models sure to have one or
another? Mean the plastic vs. iron?
Damn, unfortunately when I was involved with the CBM hardware repairs,
the C128 was almost nonexistent in my country. Therefore it seems that I
have some deep holes in the knowledge about the 128 :-(
+80 col.monitor don't miss
> Risen from Oblivion/Crest, you'll see what your C128 can really do
> !!!! If this demo would have competed with the C64 demos, it would
> have been for sure in the top 3.
[...]
Martijn van Buul
> hannibal wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>
>> And if you have a Pal C128 (with 64 Kb VDC)
>
> Does this mean, there are different chips? Different RAM configs? Or
> what?
The European 128D came in two versions: the plastic one, and the metallic
one. The metallic one has 64K VDC, the plastic one 16K, just like the
flat 128 - the plastic 128D and flat 128 share roughly the same motherboard.
However, a 128D with 16K VDC can be expanded to having 64K VDC, if you
replace the VDC RAM chips by 64kx4bit chips instead of the 16kx4bit chips
it has by default.
In the states, the 128D is always a metallic one.
--
Martijn van Buul - Pi...@dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/
Geek code: G-- - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333
Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing (W. von Braun)
hannibal
> Now, only if I can remember the URL for the docs on this stuff.
> Dang, is there a mod to fake PAL mode on a NTSC c128D ? (maybe I am hoping
> too much) Guess the C128D is NTSC. Ok, anyone interested in making a small
> NTSC fixer. I seen a few PAL demos ported to NTSC. The porting process can
> be a pain in the butt to convert over. Often the result is that part of the
> screen is above and below the top and bottom of the screen. So to see the
> extra rater lines on a 1702 monitor, you need to adjust the vertical hold
> and play around with it. With the new VDC video modes uses in "Risen",
> hmmm... NTSC fixing - this can be quite interesting.
I doubt that very much. I think it's impossible as the demo is very
complex and very time dependent (it has cycle exact effects). There
have been much more simpler demos that were impossible to fix, and to
tell you the truth, nobody gives a damn about fixing Pal stuff for
NTSC anymore. The NTSC scene is dead, and why should PAL fix for NTSC
anyway? This is a job of a NTSC scener. It's a pitty that NTSC users
are so isolated from the rest of the world and can't enjoy the magical
pal demos.
The only problem with divx may be compression loss.
> Hate looking at pixelated screens due to lossy compressions.
I was talking about a highquality Divx or Xvid (2 pass, Motion search
precision Very high, VHQ=1, Quarterpel, Chroma motion ...), you won't
see the pixels on the screen, if the video is compressed properly.
>
> Anyway, it will clearly be worth putting those .d64 demos I have on a real
> C=. Just have to wait until someone makes a perfectly clear video image of
> "Risen" before viewing.
It won't happen :( I think that the demo would have to be fully
reprogrammed for NTSC, and instead of this, I prefer them to do more
Pal demos.
Another option for you would be Vice. Whenever Vice will fully support
the 2 Mhz and VDC of the C128 mode you'll be able to see it. Just wait
some more years :)
I'm sorry I shattered your dreams :(
> Anyhow, the coding of these guys are quite impressive.
Watch all the demos I told Paul about and you'll be even more
impressed (use Vice).
Later,
Mihai
Stephan Schmid
> The version I have on my PC may be the one you uploaded, if you uploaded it
> in .d64 format.
Nah, then it's probably not Chris' version. If you can get hold of a
.P00 version of that demo, then you know that THIS is Chris' version!
;-)
And in reply to PAP:
If you have a whole diskbox full of demos, why don't you tell us your
favourites then? If you're relying on NTSC fixed demos, then I suggest
you quickly rush to your favourite demo dealer's website (me, that is)
and download "Dawnfall" by Oxyron. And no, it's not Swedish, rather
Germanic. :-)
And while you're at it, check the TOP 10 in the navigation bar on the
top of the screen, it features my newschoolish view of the ten best
demos on the C64.
Nah, Maphew, don't go there, it uses frames and JavaScript, animated
gifs and the SIDPlug. You'll most likely encounter a horrible PC
crash.
Regards,
Steppe
Stephan Schmid
thanks for that very nice review of the recent history of C64 demos.
Coincidentially it very closely resembles my opinion on that matter,
so I can only nod confirmative (confirmingly? confirmationally?). %)
Nevertheless I can't hold myself back to comment on a few paragraphs.
hann...@videocam.net.au (hannibal) wrote:
> 1. Krestology/Crest
[snip]
> This demo is a bit like a modern Dutch Breeze/Blackmail (keep your
> hands up at the Soft&Wet part !!! and if you are curious and want to
> find the secret part try licking the joystick ports !!!
Or moisten your finger and rub it, that works just as well and is more
convenient. ;-)
[snip]
> HCL hurt in his pride didn't took
> lots of time and he backfired with his answer ,'Interruptus
> Retriggerus' where he further improved the vertical raster effect.
> This 'fight' was very creative and interesting.
There was another riposte on that Kefrens bars story. I suggest
everyone check out The Singles Collection V2, where Krill increased
the width of the bars to 12 pixels. :-)
> 4.+h2k/Plush - demo coded by Krill. This guy is the drive guru, he is
> the absolute master of 'loaders'. A lot of cool effects in this demo
> too.
Not to mention one of the coolest soundtracks on the C64. You like
Drum'n'Bass? Get this!
> 6. Triage 3/Smash Design - coded by AEG. You'll get some nice 4*4 orgy
> !!! Try to watch it from farther :))
One of the few demos that actually features a real storyline - the
invasion of alien forces on the earth. If you like demos with a story
or a theme you all shouldn't miss Last Reactor/React, abovementioned
Insomnia, Pretending to See The Light/Fairlight, Timewaster/Focus or
the Triad demos.
> Let's all hope that Meet Crest/Crest will be released someday, they
> are working since '96 on it !!!
Hehe, keep your fingers crossed for it!
> Although this is about demos, I also want you all to go to
> http://c64.rulez.org/onslaught/legal/speed.zip and download Speed
> music collection. Turn the volume up and let yourself amazed (use new
> sid for multispeed tunes and old sid for digi tunes) !!!!
Speed can definitely be recommended. Throw away all your music
collections, this is the only one you'll need. This is really
something for the SID freaks here, never before have I seen such an
accumulation of tunes that drive the SID to its limits.
/Steppe
Riccardo Rubini
> According to Southpark questions are never dumb, but people are.
Interesting. What's next, Spiderman quotes ? :-)
Riccardo
"Patryk 'Silver Dream !' Łogiewa"
>>>And if you have a Pal C128 (with 64 Kb VDC)
>>
>>Does this mean, there are different chips? Different RAM configs? Or
>>what?
>
>
> The European 128D came in two versions: the plastic one, and the metallic
> one. The metallic one has 64K VDC, the plastic one 16K, just like the
> flat 128 - the plastic 128D and flat 128 share roughly the same motherboard.
>
> However, a 128D with 16K VDC can be expanded to having 64K VDC, if you
> replace the VDC RAM chips by 64kx4bit chips instead of the 16kx4bit chips
> it has by default.
>
> In the states, the 128D is always a metallic one.
>
OK. What I understand is that the difference is not in the VDC chip but
only in the amount of RAM available to it. Sort of VDC video ram? And
the upgrade to the 64K can be done in _every_ 128 version (or only in
the 128D?), regardless of the VDC chip's revision. OK. Thanks. Will
disassemble one of my recently acquired (plastic) 128Ds to have a look
at this.
Cameron Kaiser
=?ISO-8859-2?Q?=22Patryk_=27Silver_Dream_!=27_=A3ogiewa=22?= <silv...@inet.remove.it.pl> writes:
[Time Crystal]
>>Yep, that's the one I was thinking of. The use of color in the background
>>is fantastic. And the multiplexed sprites and animation used for the
>>Tyrannosaurus Rex are too. Even if it isn't a demo in the traditional
>>sense, it makes great use of the C64's graphic capabilities.
>Remember the crappy game of UFO landing in front of the white house? All
>crap except the gfx, which was enough to have it on screen for a long
>time... Just him again.
Saucer Attack ... a silly game, but the graphics were superb.
According to an interview, he never finished Time Crystal because Saucer
Attack was so endlessly pirated that he became disillusioned with the C64
community, or at least that's how the story went. Unfortunate. :-(
--
Cameron Kaiser * cka...@floodgap.com * posting with a Commodore 128
personal page: http://www.armory.com/%7Espectre/
** Computer Workshops: games, productivity software and more for C64/128! **
** http://www.armory.com/%7Espectre/cwi/ **
Stephan Schmid
> Does this mean, there are different chips? Different RAM configs? Or
> what? How to recognise those? Were some models sure to have one or
> another? Mean the plastic vs. iron?
Exactly. The flat C128 and the plastic 128D "only" had 16K of VDC RAM.
The later released C128D CR had 64K VDC RAM. AFAIK the only software
making use of the additional RAM is - Risen from Oblivion. ;-)
And the improvement in two of the effects is not that big to make you
want to get a D-CR on ebay. :-)
There's also the possibility to upgrade older 128s to 64K RAM, but
don't ask me how. I think the CKB website should have this
information. Cameron?
> Damn, unfortunately when I was involved with the CBM hardware repairs,
> the C128 was almost nonexistent in my country. Therefore it seems that I
> have some deep holes in the knowledge about the 128 :-(
Nothing to worry about. As long as one can lead his daily life without
greater problems it's ok to have some gaps in one's knowledge. ;D
Regards,
Stephan
wildstar
> I doubt that very much. I think it's impossible as the demo is very
> complex and very time dependent (it has cycle exact effects). There
> have been much more simpler demos that were impossible to fix, and to
> tell you the truth, nobody gives a damn about fixing Pal stuff for
> NTSC anymore. The NTSC scene is dead, and why should PAL fix for NTSC
> anyway? This is a job of a NTSC scener. It's a pitty that NTSC users
> are so isolated from the rest of the world and can't enjoy the magical
> pal demos.
>
Yes, I suspected that kind of stuff and that is why I said it is a pain
in the butt. Too many hit or miss. I know, converting PAL to NTSC is a
pain in the butt as it. Well, maybe this will be united in the C-1.
Maybe a thought with the C-1. It can run either PAL or NTSC all in one
unit - anywhere. At least from what I heard/read a little while back.
JERI - HELP. We need a c128 mode in the C-1 capable of both PAL and NTSC.
Yep, give Jeri the cry.
> I was talking about a highquality Divx or Xvid (2 pass, Motion search
> precision Very high, VHQ=1, Quarterpel, Chroma motion ...), you won't
> see the pixels on the screen, if the video is compressed properly.
At least that would look rather decent. The key is not seeing
"pixelation" that wasn't part of the actual demo. Otherwise we need a 64-
70 fps video capture in full resolution (VERY BIG and VERY SPACE
consuming). I seen crappy looking digital video before. Like you said, if
done right, it would be very decent.
> It won't happen :( I think that the demo would have to be fully
> reprogrammed for NTSC, and instead of this, I prefer them to do more
> Pal demos.
>
> Another option for you would be Vice. Whenever Vice will fully support
> the 2 Mhz and VDC of the C128 mode you'll be able to see it. Just wait
> some more years :)
>
> I'm sorry I shattered your dreams :(
Or wait until the C128 mode is done for the C-1. (65c816+eZ80 card, VDC
core + FPGA?)
> Watch all the demos I told Paul about and you'll be even more
> impressed (use Vice).
Yep, I seen several of them.
wildstar
news:3f28f3c0$1...@news.inet.com.pl:
> Does this mean, there are different chips? Different RAM configs? Or
> what? How to recognise those? Were some models sure to have one or
> another? Mean the plastic vs. iron?
>
> Damn, unfortunately when I was involved with the CBM hardware repairs,
> the C128 was almost nonexistent in my country. Therefore it seems that
> I have some deep holes in the knowledge about the 128 :-(
Well, yes in a sense. The version of the VIC-II in Europe is little
different then NTSC. Mostly based on this 50Hz power of Europe and 60 Hz
of US. This also sets the clock cycle of the CPU a little differently.
The VDC would be the same way. Slightly different clocking. This is
actually quite important in timing dependent demos or at least features
in a demo. Timing is of like "dire" importance in some demos. Especially
in many of the most advance demos.
A variation of the same chip made by Commodore is made for Europe as with
NTSC. The video standards in TV video is clearly different. PAL video has
more scan lines from top to bottom.
Do to these timing differences, some demos just don't function properly.
The same rule that PAL demos may not run on NTSC. NTSC may not run on
PAL. In those cases, a crafty scener has to find a way to "fix" it over.
Some cases it is easy, in other cases it is near impossible.
Since it can be such a pain in the butt, there is so few interested in
doing this kind of stuff.
wildstar
news:3f291e04$1...@news.inet.com.pl:
> OK. What I understand is that the difference is not in the VDC chip
> but only in the amount of RAM available to it. Sort of VDC video ram?
> And the upgrade to the 64K can be done in _every_ 128 version (or only
> in the 128D?), regardless of the VDC chip's revision. OK. Thanks. Will
> disassemble one of my recently acquired (plastic) 128Ds to have a look
> at this.
>
No, there is another difference. This thats root back to power. In Europe
(PAL) it is 50 Hz and in US (NTSC) it is 60 Hz. This timing difference will
clock the CPU differently. Meaning, we may have timing issues.
This is the most critical part in any of the new demos featuring new video
modes like SHIFLI and other even newer video. It can be a serious pain in
the ass to do sometimes. With FLI and the sort, if your clocking isn't
right, you get nothing or the program crashes out. So porting of such demo
can be a challenge especially when porting the only demo of its kind with
the only VDC demo that used FLI of its level. Risen from Oblivion is the
MOST state of the art demo for the C-128/128D that I know of.
hannibal
> Does this mean, there are different chips? Different RAM configs? Or
> what? How to recognise those? Were some models sure to have one or
> another? Mean the plastic vs. iron?
Usually the C128D came with 64Kb VDC. But my weird C128 DCR has them
all: new sid (8580) and 64Kb vdc, I think it might be a later model
(it's not a C128D, but a plain C128 with a very strange motherboard (I
must take a photo of it once) - I barely fit the MMU adapter of the
SCPU, the 64 and the 128 kernal are in the same chip just like in the
C128D, that's why my C128 jiffydos was useless, I guess my C128 is a
C128D without internal 1571 put in a regular C128 :)
64 Kb VDC is a very important feature of a C128 computer (C128 will
have 192 KB now). It gives full color in 80 col mode, try to use
Wheels in 80 col mode with the 64 Kb VDC, you'll see the difference
immediatly. Also many programs use this feature as a virtual disk.
Read this and you'll figure all out:
UPGRADING THE C128 FROM 16K TO 64K OF VIDEO RAM 02-22-99
There used to be an easy-to-install piggyback board, but I
haven't
seen one for years. You would pull the VDC chip, install the board and
plug
the chip into it. It had the upgraded video RAM chips on it.
Upgrading the VRAM on your own involves pulling the two original
4416
(16K X 4) RAM chips (probably marked something like: MB81416-12)
inside the
tin can in the middle of the motherboard. The two chips are at board
locations U23 and U25 and are very likely soldered in. It's kinda
tight in
there and desoldering chips is a pain anyway, not to mention risky if
you
accidently break a foil trace and don't repair it before installing
the new
chips. You end up covering up your mistake rather well. As a tech, I
desolder the original and put in a socket. That way, I have the option
of
putting the old ones back if the upgrade doesn't work for some reason.
You
never want to solder on the board more than once if you can help it.
Sockets are cheap. An alternative to desoldering the whole chip is to
cut
off all the pins close to the body of the IC, then desolder each one
and
clean out the holes with wick or a solder sucker so the new chip (or
socket) will fit. That's much easier on the board, but obviously
destroys
the chips. Not a big deal... they usually end up in the garbage
anyway.
So, you'll need two 4464 (64K X 4) RAM chips. Jameco Electronics
@
1-800-831-4242 has them, but you'll need to add $5 for orders under
$25,
then shipping on top of that. They have a WEBsite: www.jameco.com. The
Jameco part number for the chip is 41582 or 41574 or 41611. Those
three
numbers represent the same chip, but at different speeds, 120ns,
100ns, and
80ns respectively. All will work and cost less than $3 each. Jameco
has the
sockets too. Order # 38113 or 112230 socket (18 pin DIP single or
double
contact) for less than $0.25 each.
For desoldering, you'll want an iron of about 25 watts. Don't be
tempted to use your 30 year old soldering gun... it will eat that
board.
Make sure you mount the new chips exactly the way the old ones came
out.
There is a notch at one end so you shouldn't get them in backwards.
Use a
marking pen to indicate where the notch goes if necessary. After the
new
sockets/chips are installed, carefully inspect your work for solder
splashes or bridges between traces, etc. If all is well, put it all
back
together.
Power up the computer and observe the opening screen. You might
notice
that just -before- it comes up, the screen looks different than it
used to.
When the opening screen appears, it should look the same as before.
One way
to tell if you have the upgraded VRAM is with a little basic program
typed
in 80 column mode:
POKE DEC("D600"),28:POKE DEC("D601"),63:SYS DEC("FF62"):SCNCLR
<RETURN>
If the screen says: READY and looks normal, you have 64K of VRAM. If
you
have only 16K, the screen will fill up with zeros.
Ray Carlsen CET
Carlsen Electronics
hannibal
> Hi Mihai,
> thanks for that very nice review of the recent history of C64 demos.
> Coincidentially it very closely resembles my opinion on that matter,
> so I can only nod confirmative (confirmingly? confirmationally?). %)
I'm glad you agree with them, who wouldn't? :)
> > 1. Krestology/Crest
> [snip]
> > This demo is a bit like a modern Dutch Breeze/Blackmail (keep your
> > hands up at the Soft&Wet part !!! and if you are curious and want to
> > find the secret part try licking the joystick ports !!!
>
> Or moisten your finger and rub it, that works just as well and is more
> convenient. ;-)
:))))) This is the hornyest demo ever !!!! Thanks God that Blackmail
crew didn't made a secret part that required to insert 'something' in
the user port !!! hahahaha :)))
> [snip]
> > HCL hurt in his pride didn't took
> > lots of time and he backfired with his answer ,'Interruptus
> > Retriggerus' where he further improved the vertical raster effect.
> > This 'fight' was very creative and interesting.
>
> There was another riposte on that Kefrens bars story. I suggest
> everyone check out The Singles Collection V2, where Krill increased
> the width of the bars to 12 pixels. :-)
Yes, I saw that, but I don't think it opened the borders. Crossbow's
effect was more impressive.
[snip]
> > Let's all hope that Meet Crest/Crest will be released someday, they
> > are working since '96 on it !!!
>
> Hehe, keep your fingers crossed for it!
People are starting to make jokes about it :))
Check this :))))
10/2/2003
[14:21] <DaneCrest> The mere thought of Floppy gets me all excited
<DaneCrest> All those sweaty men huddled together in the dark
<nucleus> :)))
<nucleus> bending over, looking at monitors ... huh
<DaneCrest> I can't help dropping disks labelled 'Meet Crest' on the
floor :)
<cupid_hit> cuddling together in the dark
<cupid_hit> "meet crest" $5 for 30 minutes, all services
<DaneCrest> $5? I'm cheaper than that :)
> Speed can definitely be recommended. Throw away all your music
> collections, this is the only one you'll need. This is really
> something for the SID freaks here, never before have I seen such an
> accumulation of tunes that drive the SID to its limits.
Yes, that's what I wanted to say too. This thing is the best
collection of sids ever, GRG and DJB are the absolute masters of
Multispeed digi sids.
Later,
Mihai
Keith
I don't know about the PAL 128s,but I upgaded my flat C128 to 64k with no problems.
keith
Marc Walters
[snip]
> > This demo is a bit like a modern Dutch Breeze/Blackmail (keep your
> > hands up at the Soft&Wet part !!! and if you are curious and want to
> > find the secret part try licking the joystick ports !!!
>
> Or moisten your finger and rub it, that works just as well and is more
> convenient. ;-)
Or perhaps, like with Dutch Breeze, you could just plug in a mouse for
the same effect? (Cor! Animal Action)
Although I imagine some of the c.s.c'ers will still prefer the
originally suggested method. :-)
Marc Walters
wildstar
news:d7e7c90e.03073...@posting.google.com:
> Or perhaps, like with Dutch Breeze, you could just plug in a mouse for
> the same effect? (Cor! Animal Action)
>
> Although I imagine some of the c.s.c'ers will still prefer the
> originally suggested method. :-)
>
Then there is one lamer in c.s.c. that will hiss at the sound of a "mouse".
Nicolas Welte
> Usually the C128D came with 64Kb VDC. But my weird C128 DCR has them
> all: new sid (8580) and 64Kb vdc, I think it might be a later model
> (it's not a C128D, but a plain C128 with a very strange motherboard (I
> must take a photo of it once) - I barely fit the MMU adapter of the
> SCPU, the 64 and the 128 kernal are in the same chip just like in the
> C128D, that's why my C128 jiffydos was useless, I guess my C128 is a
> C128D without internal 1571 put in a regular C128 :)
You obviously have one of the few C128CR that are around: same chipset as the
C128DCR. http://www.funet.fi/pub/cbm/ has a picture of such a board.
The original plastic cased C128D has 16kB VDC RAM, just like the normal C128.
Both share the same motherboard. They only differ in the use of some optional
connectors for the internal drive and power supply.
Nicolas
--
--> Email address is valid for replies (requires Re: in the subject) <--
- See my Commodore hardware projects at http://people.freenet.de/x1541 -
- Visit the German X1541 Shop at http://sta.c64.org/x1541shop_ger.html -
Peter van Merkerk
no problems.
I have a PAL C128, and did the same thing. Just a matter of replacing
the DRAM chips, that's all.
--
Peter van Merkerk
peter.van.merkerk(at)dse.nl
"Patryk 'Silver Dream !' Łogiewa"
>>I don't know about the PAL 128s,but I upgaded my flat C128 to 64k with
>
> no problems.
>
> I have a PAL C128, and did the same thing. Just a matter of replacing
> the DRAM chips, that's all.
How to (easily) verify that it indeed works and the 64K is available?
Peter van Merkerk
At the time I ran a little demo program that required 64K of VDC RAM.
However Ray Carlsen describes a simpler method to check if the upgrade
was successful: http://personalpages.tds.net/~rcarlsen/cbm/64kvram.txt
"Patryk 'Silver Dream !' Łogiewa"
> "Patryk 'Silver Dream !' ?ogiewa" <silv...@inet.remove.it.pl> wrote in
> news:3f28f3c0$1...@news.inet.com.pl:
>
>
>
>>Does this mean, there are different chips? Different RAM configs? Or
>>what? How to recognise those? Were some models sure to have one or
>>another? Mean the plastic vs. iron?
>>
>>Damn, unfortunately when I was involved with the CBM hardware repairs,
>>the C128 was almost nonexistent in my country. Therefore it seems that
>>I have some deep holes in the knowledge about the 128 :-(
>
>
> Well, yes in a sense. The version of the VIC-II in Europe is little
> different then NTSC. Mostly based on this 50Hz power of Europe and 60 Hz
> of US. This also sets the clock cycle of the CPU a little differently.
>
> The VDC would be the same way. Slightly different clocking. This is
> actually quite important in timing dependent demos or at least features
> in a demo.
[...]
I am very much aware of the timing and scanlines differences and their
importance. Even quite recently I got a mail from a guy asking why my
"multidrawer" (available somewhere on funet), which was supposed to be
_THAT_ good, crashes his machine whenever he presses some key
combinations. Of course I couldn't reproduce the problem until he wrote
something about his US location. I wrote the program in the early
nineties, and (of course) had no single NTSC machine around to test.
These days I fired up VICE, set it to NTSC, loaded in my old pride
and... not only it hanged after the given key but also it didn't expose
all of his navigation aids (bordersides), and generally looked bad :-(
So. No, I wasn't asking about the PAL vs. NTSC differences but rather if
there is a difference in the VDC chip (being it in whichever, PAL or
NTSC machine) that would allow it to address the 64K (like additional
address lines or whatever).
"Patryk 'Silver Dream !' Łogiewa"
>>How to (easily) verify that it indeed works and the 64K is available?
>
>
> At the time I ran a little demo program that required 64K of VDC RAM.
> However Ray Carlsen describes a simpler method to check if the upgrade
> was successful: http://personalpages.tds.net/~rcarlsen/cbm/64kvram.txt
>
Yup. Thanks.
Riccardo Rubini
> OK. What I understand is that the difference is not in the VDC chip
Absolutely wrong!
The C128DCR ( namely "the metallic one" ) uses a new VDC, the 8568, which is
an evolution of the 6545E CRT controller. The C128D ( plastic ) and the C128
flat use instead the 8563. You cannot swap an 8563 with an 8568, the two
chips are different not only internally but also in their external pins
configuration.
> the upgrade to the 64K can be done in _every_ 128 version (or only in
> the 128D?), regardless of the VDC chip's revision.
The 64Kbytes upgrade is a suitable option only for C128D's in plastic and
flat C128's. Why ? Because all 8568 equipped C128D's ( C128DCR models ) come
with 64Kbytes already.
Riccardo
"Patryk 'Silver Dream !' Łogiewa"
> Patryk 'Silver Dream !' ?ogiewa wrote:
>
> > OK. What I understand is that the difference is not in the VDC chip
>
> Absolutely wrong!
>
> The C128DCR ( namely "the metallic one" ) uses a new VDC, the 8568, which is
> an evolution of the 6545E CRT controller. The C128D ( plastic ) and the C128
> flat use instead the 8563. You cannot swap an 8563 with an 8568, the two
> chips are different not only internally but also in their external pins
> configuration.
As I explained in another post, I was asking in a different context. I
was about the ability to address the 64K. In other words:
"Does one need a special/specific VDC chip version/revision to have the
64K VDC RAM configuration possible?"
As far as I understood: NO. Meaning then:
"the difference [in the RAM configurations support capabilities] is not
[buried] in the VDC chip".
I hope in this context it is not that absolutely wrong.
>
>
>>the upgrade to the 64K can be done in _every_ 128 version (or only in
>>the 128D?), regardless of the VDC chip's revision.
>
>
> The 64Kbytes upgrade is a suitable option only for C128D's in plastic and
> flat C128's. Why ? Because all 8568 equipped C128D's ( C128DCR models ) come
> with 64Kbytes already.
>
I think I already know everything what I needed to:
a) verify if there is 64K VDC RAM inside _any_ given 128.
b) upgrade if there is no.
Of course, for the puritanic souls, the word "every" in the sentence
with "_every_ 128 version" might be a trigger for corrective actions but
for me it was obvious that the upgrade is to be done in those, which
don't have the 64K already.
Thanks for all the explanations and info.
wildstar
> I am very much aware of the timing and scanlines differences and their
> importance. Even quite recently I got a mail from a guy asking why my
> "multidrawer" (available somewhere on funet), which was supposed to be
> _THAT_ good, crashes his machine whenever he presses some key
> combinations. Of course I couldn't reproduce the problem until he
> wrote something about his US location. I wrote the program in the
> early nineties, and (of course) had no single NTSC machine around to
> test. These days I fired up VICE, set it to NTSC, loaded in my old
> pride and... not only it hanged after the given key but also it didn't
> expose all of his navigation aids (bordersides), and generally looked
> bad :-(
>
> So. No, I wasn't asking about the PAL vs. NTSC differences but rather
> if there is a difference in the VDC chip (being it in whichever, PAL
> or NTSC machine) that would allow it to address the 64K (like
> additional address lines or whatever).
>
Now prob. There is too different model VDC but both model is upgradable
to 64KB. The ones in the c128 flat and majority of the plastic C-128Ds
uses an older version of the VDC and is often stocked with 16 KB but was
later discovered that it can actually handle 64KB or simply CBM didn't
want to push it pass 16KB for some corporate reason until later. Just
that the C-128D (metal version - NTSC) had 64 KB. CBM may have made two
version for each model number of the VDC (like 8563 PAL VDC and 8563
NTSC VDC). The general difference is in the 50Hz/60Hz business. Though I
doubt there was much of difference as it is RGB/CGA or EGA. I think
there isn't a scanline difference in the VDC chip from my understanding.
Just like there is not any difference in the scan line video mode of VGA
or SVGA. As for the VIC-II, oh definitely.
So in short all versions of the VDCs can address 64KB that have been
used in any of the C-128 models. As for the prototypes, I guess you ask
Bill Herd.
Riccardo Rubini
> As I explained in another post, I was asking in a different context. I
> was about the ability to address the 64K. In other words:
>
> "Does one need a special/specific VDC chip version/revision to have
> the 64K VDC RAM configuration possible?"
>
> As far as I understood: NO. Meaning then:
Ah, okay. No, you do not need any specific VDC version or revision. Both the
8563 and the 8568 are able to address up to 64 Kylobytes of RAM,
interfacing directly to 4164 or 4416 DRAM modules.
> "the difference [in the RAM configurations support capabilities] is
> not [buried] in the VDC chip".
Ok, I admit it...I haven't paid enough attention at the context. It's clear
<:-) I just get bored when I read certain names in the threads, and others,
well I can't read them at all.
No, it's not an inner feature of the VDC chip the RAM thing.
> I hope in this context it is not that absolutely wrong.
It's not, you're right.
> Thanks for all the explanations and info.
Welcome.
Riccardo
Jim Faulkner
> Hello,
>
> Does anyone have a consensus favorite for "Best Commodore 64 Demo Ever"?
>
> Regards,
>
> Paul Allen Panks
> dun...@yahoo.com
I have a NTSC C64, so I can't play most of the demos that people usually
mention as "best ever."
The best NTSC-compatible demo I have seen, by far, is "Speedway" by Panic:
http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=2936
Jim
White Flame (aka David Holz)
news:pan.2003.08.03....@ccs.neu.edu...
> I have a NTSC C64, so I can't play most of the demos that people usually
> mention as "best ever."
That great little one-filer Dawnfall is NTSC-fixed:
ftp://c64.rulez.org/pub/c64/Demos/o/Oxyron/Dawnfall_PAL+NTSC.zip
> The best NTSC-compatible demo I have seen, by far, is "Speedway" by Panic:
> http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=2936
arg, I can't stand that 8x8 diagonal flicker-lace! 8-P
--
White Flame (aka David Holz)
http://www.white-flame.com/
(spamblock in effect)
Marc Walters
news:bgih5r$1c5k$1...@barad-dur.nas.com...
> "Jim Faulkner" <jfau...@ccs.neu.edu> wrote in message
> news:pan.2003.08.03....@ccs.neu.edu...
> > I have a NTSC C64, so I can't play most of the demos that people usually
> > mention as "best ever."
>
> That great little one-filer Dawnfall is NTSC-fixed:
> ftp://c64.rulez.org/pub/c64/Demos/o/Oxyron/Dawnfall_PAL+NTSC.zip
>
> > The best NTSC-compatible demo I have seen, by far, is "Speedway" by
Panic:
> > http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=2936
>
> arg, I can't stand that 8x8 diagonal flicker-lace! 8-P
On the subject of NTSC demos, I think "Reticulation" was NTSC/PAL (someone
please correct me here) and displayed a slideshow of interlaced images.
Quite enjoyable, too.
Marc Walters
Linards Ticmanis
> Dang, is there a mod to fake PAL mode on a NTSC c128D ? (maybe I am hoping
> too much)
You'd need a VIC and probably also a VDC from a PAL 128. Maybe somebody
has spares. Also you'd need a new quartz, a new TV modulator (maybe not
required if you only use the video outputs), and make a small number of
other changes on the board. Check the schematics, they should tell you
what needs to be modified. Of course it won't be 100% PAL since the CIAs
would need to be fed a 50Hz real-time clock reference input for that,
but I doubt this matters for demos. The ROMs shouldn't need to be
exchanged unless you need some non-US national keyboard.
Then, of course, you also need a PAL capable TV or monitor, i.e. a
European/Australian 1084 or a multinorm TV set, or you'll only get
black&white if anything. The 1084 *can* be converted too but its a
sh*tload of work with erratic hit&miss schematics, not really worth it,
and you'd need to get a hold of a PAL delay line which might be
impossible in the US.
> Guess the C128D is NTSC. Ok, anyone interested in making a small
> NTSC fixer. I seen a few PAL demos ported to NTSC. The porting process can
> be a pain in the butt to convert over. Often the result is that part of the
> screen is above and below the top and bottom of the screen. So to see the
> extra rater lines on a 1702 monitor, you need to adjust the vertical hold
> and play around with it. With the new VDC video modes uses in "Risen",
> hmmm... NTSC fixing - this can be quite interesting.
Forget it, at least for the VIC part. AFAIK the new colors depend on the
phase alternating lines that gave PAL its name, they are made by letting
the PAL output circuitry of the VIC "forget" one phase alternation so
that the TV's color decoder and the VIC are working with a 180° color
phase shift.
The PAL delay line might also be required - hell, even a know-nothing
can create 5 extra colors on PAL C64s and 128s by simply alternating
lines of two colors that have equal luminance. There are five such color
pairs on PAL systems, the TV's or monitor's delay line will average them
out for you. If it is tuned correctly (i.e. if you've got a quality TV
or monitor) you'll have a clear, new color different from any of the 16
predefined ones. Impossible with NTSC which doesn't have a delay line in
the spec.
--
Linards Ticmanis
The Master said, "The business of laying on the colors follows the
preparation of the plain ground."
Linards Ticmanis
> Maybe a thought with the C-1. It can run either PAL or NTSC all in one
> unit - anywhere. At least from what I heard/read a little while back.
>
> JERI - HELP. We need a c128 mode in the C-1 capable of both PAL and NTSC.
> Yep, give Jeri the cry.
The PAL phase shifting new colors are a relatively new discovery AFAIK,
the C-1 implementation of the VIC probably doesn't implement it I'd guess.
> At least that would look rather decent. The key is not seeing
> "pixelation" that wasn't part of the actual demo. Otherwise we need a 64-
> 70 fps video capture in full resolution (VERY BIG and VERY SPACE
> consuming). I seen crappy looking digital video before. Like you said, if
> done right, it would be very decent.
Any relatively new system with a 120GB or so Hard Disk will probably be
quite sufficient, using the HuffYUV fast lossless compression or
something similar during capture, and then transcoding from that to DIVX
or MPEG2 or whatever later on. Provided, of course, that the Capture
card can deal with the larger picture frequency, probably many of them
won't be able to do that.
> Or wait until the C128 mode is done for the C-1. (65c816+eZ80 card, VDC
> core + FPGA?)
Does the C-1 have a full fledged 6502 emulation including illegal
opcodes? Might be necessary for some demos.
Linards Ticmanis
> Exactly. The flat C128 and the plastic 128D "only" had 16K of VDC RAM.
> The later released C128D CR had 64K VDC RAM. AFAIK the only software
> making use of the additional RAM is - Risen from Oblivion. ;-)
Actually a good number of programs use it, though more often they don't
use it for video memory but as a kind of RAM disk, for example allowing
a single-drive 1541 disk copy in a single pass with the all-in-all 192
KB of RAM in a 64K-VDC machine.
Linards Ticmanis
> The C128DCR ( namely "the metallic one" ) uses a new VDC, the 8568, which is
> an evolution of the 6545E CRT controller. The C128D ( plastic ) and the C128
> flat use instead the 8563. You cannot swap an 8563 with an 8568, the two
> chips are different not only internally but also in their external pins
> configuration.
I think I know that the 8568 generates a better monochrome signal
internally, but are there any software visible differences between the
two chips?
Cameron Kaiser
>>Exactly. The flat C128 and the plastic 128D "only" had 16K of VDC RAM.
>>The later released C128D CR had 64K VDC RAM. AFAIK the only software
>>making use of the additional RAM is - Risen from Oblivion. ;-)
>Actually a good number of programs use it, though more often they don't
>use it for video memory but as a kind of RAM disk, for example allowing
>a single-drive 1541 disk copy in a single pass with the all-in-all 192
>KB of RAM in a 64K-VDC machine.
HyperLink 2.5 and 2.5a both can use it as cache (one page cached for 16K,
four for 64K).
--
Cameron Kaiser * cka...@floodgap.com * posting with a Commodore 128
personal page: http://www.armory.com/%7Espectre/
** Computer Workshops: games, productivity software and more for C64/128! **
** http://www.armory.com/%7Espectre/cwi/ **
Nicolas Welte
> I think I know that the 8568 generates a better monochrome signal
> internally, but are there any software visible differences between the
> two chips?
The 8568 reports itself as model 2, while the 8563R8 and R9 report model 1.
Model 0 is R7 and earlier. The 8568 also has an extra register 37 that is not
present in earlier chips. It controls the polarity of the sync signals.