build a 3,5" disk drive for C64
Tero Saarela
well aware of the fact that 1581 drives are a rarity, at least here in
Finland, and thus relatively expensive.
Therefore I'm asking would it be possible to build an independent
3,5" disk drive from a standard 3,5" disk drive? Using XE1541 cable is not
really an option because an ATX tower case is a tad too big for a disk
drive.
What exactly would it require (components, power unit,...) to build a
3,5" disk drive to Commodore 64? Is there any links that are related to
this matter?
Thanks,
--
Tero
Nathan Smith
wrote:
>I've been dreaming of having a 3,5" disk drive for my Commodore 64. I am
>well aware of the fact that 1581 drives are a rarity, at least here in
>Finland, and thus relatively expensive.
>
>Therefore I'm asking would it be possible to build an independent
>3,5" disk drive from a standard 3,5" disk drive? Using XE1541 cable is not
>really an option because an ATX tower case is a tad too big for a disk
>drive.
>
>What exactly would it require (components, power unit,...) to build a
>3,5" disk drive to Commodore 64? Is there any links that are related to
>this matter?
>
>Thanks,
I'm guessing about $179 US + postage will get you some FD 2000 from
Maurice Randall. Saves building one :)
Gary Tait
wrote:
>I've been dreaming of having a 3,5" disk drive for my Commodore 64. I am
>well aware of the fact that 1581 drives are a rarity, at least here in
>Finland, and thus relatively expensive.
>
>Therefore I'm asking would it be possible to build an independent
>3,5" disk drive from a standard 3,5" disk drive? Using XE1541 cable is not
>really an option because an ATX tower case is a tad too big for a disk
>drive.
>
>What exactly would it require (components, power unit,...) to build a
>3,5" disk drive to Commodore 64? Is there any links that are related to
>this matter?
>
>Thanks,
Hardwarewise, I suspect a micro, such as an 8051 or it's Atmel AVR
similar, with an NEC 765 compatible chip, with memory and CPU bus
chips, as well as the electronics to connect the '765 chip to the FDD.
It will take some doing to make it work though, with software a big
part of it.
Ruud Baltissen
> Hardwarewise, I suspect a micro, ....
> ...
> It will take some doing to make it work though, with software a big
> part of it.
The 8520, WD1772, 6502 and other parts are still available AFAIK. Then
why not building a 1581? Two advantages:
- don't need to develop software
- 100% compatibilty
--
___
/ __|__
/ / |_/ Groetjes, Ruud
\ \__|_\
\___| http://Ruud.C64.org
Tero Saarela
: The 8520, WD1772, 6502 and other parts are still available AFAIK. Then
: why not building a 1581? Two advantages:
: - don't need to develop software
: - 100% compatibilty
Are there any schematics for the 1581 circuit board? I suspect that the
standard 3,5" drive mechanics can be used. What else should be taken into
consideradion?
Dave R.
@ousrvr3.oulu.fi>:
>Are there any schematics for the 1581 circuit board? I suspect that the
>standard 3,5" drive mechanics can be used. What else should be taken into
>consideradion?
A few lines on the drive connector will need to be swapped. The mech in a
stock 1581 is the same as an Amiga 500 drive, and doesn't follow the
standard exactly.
krs...@nospamnetscape.net
"Dave R." wrote:
Centsible (http://www.centsible.com/) sells a make-your-own-1581 kit which
includes everything except a standard pc drive mech. I've never used it so
can't comment on the quality of the results, but it is an option for those who
can't find a real 1581.
-Ron
Jason Petersen
>
> Centsible (http://www.centsible.com/) sells a make-your-own-1581 kit which
> includes everything except a standard pc drive mech. I've never used it so
> can't comment on the quality of the results, but it is an option for those who
> can't find a real 1581.
Do they have those back in stock? I inquired about them some time ago
and they were sold out. Ended up getting my 1581s from eBay. Even though
the 1581 has a reputation as a high dollar item on there, both of mine
cost in the $50 range. The secret to ebay is patience. :)
--
Jason
krs...@nospamnetscape.net
Jason Petersen wrote:
It was in the printed version of the catalog that I received from them just last
week. Probably the only way to know for sure is to email or call them.
-Ron
Tero Saarela
: It was in the printed version of the catalog that I received from them just last
: week. Probably the only way to know for sure is to email or call them.
: -Ron
How much was the DIY kit in the catalog?
Back in the 80's there was an article in a Finnish computer magazine
called Prosessori about building a 3" disk drive from scratch to Oric and
the same design could also be applied to C64. I found the magazine from a
local library and checked it out. Pretty good article. It seems that the
drive in Oric used also the 6502 chip. Too bad that the article didn't
tell what kind of changes were needed to make the drive work in a C64.
Ruud Baltissen
> Are there any schematics for the 1581 circuit board?
http://www.funet.fi/pub/cbm/schematics/drives/new/1581/index.html
> I suspect that the standard 3,5" drive mechanics can
> be used.
Some say that only Amiga drives will work fine. But I found some PC
720 KB drives that coorerated fine as well.
Tero Saarela
: http://www.funet.fi/pub/cbm/schematics/drives/new/1581/index.html
: Some say that only Amiga drives will work fine. But I found some PC
: 720 KB drives that coorerated fine as well.
Thanks Ruud. This helps a lot.
Wildstar
"Tero Saarela" <tsaa...@paju.oulu.fi> wrote :
> Ruud Baltissen <Ruud.Ba...@abp.nl> wrote:
>
> : http://www.funet.fi/pub/cbm/schematics/drives/new/1581/index.html
>
> : Some say that only Amiga drives will work fine. But I found some PC
> : 720 KB drives that coorerated fine as well.
>
> Thanks Ruud. This helps a lot.
Yes, it depends on the drive maker. (Teac,Chinon,Mitsumi,NEC, and so on.)
The truth behind the matters is that the drive mechanism of 3.5" drives
where pretty much all made the same with of course very small and subtle
mechanical differences with some brand. The drives are all basically the
same. Since the drive mechanism is basically an internal 3.5" drive. That is
all they are.Some brands are better than others. Mostly in material and
quality. They are all still built basically the same. It has always been
that way since the IBM AT and the Mac came out as well as the Amiga and
Atari. All wanted 3.5" drive. Makers of the drives made them all basically
the same. Commodore mostly got these drives from their drive supplier
Chinon. Yet, they made basically the same drive mechanism as Teac,NEC and
Mitsumi and all the others. It all ends up with material quality. Its like
VCR machnisms and Audio Cassettes. They are basically built the same. But
more similar with the drive mechanisms.
Thats why they tend to all look the same or about the same.
Marko Mäkelä
Wildstar> They are all still built basically the same. It has always
Wildstar> been that way since the IBM AT and the Mac came out as well
Wildstar> as the Amiga and Atari. All wanted 3.5" drive. Makers of the
Wildstar> drives made them all basically the same.
Isn't the Mac drive different, with software-controlled eject feature
and support for variable motor speed for DD disks? (I don't know if
the Apple HD format uses variable motor speed.)
Rumour has it that Apple did not want to vary the bit rate in order to
fit more data on the outer tracks, because Commodore had a patent on
it. PC clones do not fully utilize the capacity of disks, they fit
the same number of sectors on each track, even though the outer tracks
could be utilised better.
Marko
Spiro Trikaliotis
>A few lines on the drive connector will need to be swapped. The mech in a
>stock 1581 is the same as an Amiga 500 drive, and doesn't follow the
>standard exactly.
Not exactly correct. The A500 does follow the shugart standard, while
the PC's drives do not.
Spiro.
Wolfgang Moser
Tero Saarela wrote:
> : The 8520, WD1772, 6502 and other parts are still available AFAIK. Then
> : why not building a 1581? Two advantages:
> : - don't need to develop software
> : - 100% compatibilty
>
> Are there any schematics for the 1581 circuit board? I suspect that the
> standard 3,5" drive mechanics can be used. What else should be taken into
> consideradion?
It seems, you need have a look at:
http://www.students.tut.fi/~leinone3/upperside81.jpg
and
http://www.funet.fi/pub/cbm/schematics/drives/new/1581/index.html
Womo
Cameron Kaiser
>>They are all still built basically the same. It has always
>>been that way since the IBM AT and the Mac came out as well
>>as the Amiga and Atari. All wanted 3.5" drive. Makers of the
>>drives made them all basically the same.
>Isn't the Mac drive different, with software-controlled eject feature
>and support for variable motor speed for DD disks? (I don't know if
>the Apple HD format uses variable motor speed.)
I don't think the Mac 400/800K GCR format uses variable velocity either,
but it does have soft-eject. Nevertheless, they aren't regular PC 3.5",
yes.
--
Cameron Kaiser * cka...@stockholm.ptloma.edu * posting with a Commodore 128
personal page: http://www.armory.com/%7Espectre/
** Computer Workshops: games, productivity software and more for C64/128! **
** http://www.armory.com/%7Espectre/cwi/ **
Gary Tait
tHe fact is, for me anywat, is I do have numerous PC FDD controllers
(using the 765), and some 8051s, which I can use in MCU mode, with and
external rom/ram, and can connect pretty easily to a 765. IMO, the
hard part will be firmware.
Impmon
typed:
>Isn't the Mac drive different, with software-controlled eject feature
>and support for variable motor speed for DD disks? (I don't know if
>the Apple HD format uses variable motor speed.)
THe 400K and 800K format did not have the variable speed. However the
high density do as Apple also wanted the users to have the option to
read PC formatted disk and Apple II formatted disks.
--
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krs...@nospamnetscape.net
Tero Saarela wrote:
Sadly I've already tossed the catalog. I *think* it was $50, but it might have been a
bit less.
-Ron
Wildstar
"Marko Mäkelä" <Marko....@HUT.FI> wrote in message
news:7lfzwqf...@siphon.tcs.hut.fi...
> Isn't the Mac drive different, with software-controlled eject feature
> and support for variable motor speed for DD disks? (I don't know if
> the Apple HD format uses variable motor speed.)
>
All the drive technically could be software eject. Just that Apple wanted no
front eject button. Variable speed. Are you sure that wasn't a digitally
controlled variable resistor involved or something of that sort involved on
the controller board. Slight change in power feed to the drive itself will
change the speed. Since that power feeds the motor and like any and all
motors. They reach a certain RPM based on the power being feed to the motor.
Thus all motors are variable speed since it's speed varies as it goes from
stop to full. So a slightly lower power feed to the drive motor - the
slightly slower it will run. Simple electronics with motors apply. Also more
power can speed it up faster. * WARNING: Do Not Give the Motor TOO much
power * (Hint-Burn up the motor. This falls in the same line as a RC-10
motor as well. They are simply electric motors.
Martijn van Buul
> Isn't the Mac drive different, with software-controlled eject feature
> and support for variable motor speed for DD disks?
Oh yes. Oh very yes. I've been searching quite a long time for a replacement
drive for my Macintosh Classic, whose SuperDrive had gone bad.
> (I don't know if the Apple HD format uses variable motor speed.)
It doesn't. Apple HD disks can be easily read and written with a PC. It's
just the standard 1.44MB format - just with a different filesystem.
The Apple *DD* disks, however, are something completely different. They do
have a CLV-approach to reading tracks :)
--
Martijn van Buul - Pi...@dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/
Geek code: G-- - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333
Kees J. Bot: The sum of CPU power and user brain power is a constant.
Lewin A.R.W. Edwards
>
> All the drive technically could be software eject. Just that Apple wanted no
> front eject button. Variable speed. Are you sure that wasn't a digitally
What? Normal 3.5" floppies do not include an eject motor. Apple's
drives have always included the mechanism for a mechanical front-panel
eject button but there is no plastic button clipped to it. The eject
button plate is behind the emergency-eject paper-clip hole on the
Mac's front panel.
> controlled variable resistor involved or something of that sort involved on
> the controller board. Slight change in power feed to the drive itself will
> change the speed. Since that power feeds the motor and like any and all
This will not work. FDD hub motors, like most other media motors, are
accurately speed-controlled to by firmware on the drive itself,
independent of supply voltage. There is a Hall effect sensor on the
board and a small magnet on the drive hub to provide velocity
feedback. This is necessary to accommodate different amounts of
friction inside different disks. The motor itself consists of several
coils that are energized individually by the motor controller IC.
Apple's floppy mechs are proprietary, and even use a nonstandard
connector (20-pin vs. standard 34-pin). They have several speed
settings for backwards compatibility with Apple's old DD disk format.
In HD mode they are basically PC-compatible in terms of R/W ability.
Wildstar
"Lewin A.R.W. Edwards" <la...@larwe.com> wrote in message
> What? Normal 3.5" floppies do not include an eject motor. Apple's
> drives have always included the mechanism for a mechanical front-panel
> eject button but there is no plastic button clipped to it. The eject
> button plate is behind the emergency-eject paper-clip hole on the
> Mac's front panel.
> This will not work. FDD hub motors, like most other media motors, are
> accurately speed-controlled to by firmware on the drive itself,
> independent of supply voltage. There is a Hall effect sensor on the
<<< Snip >>>
Yes, indeed. This is nothing more then a governor on the motor. That is
controlled by firmware to ensure that the
supply voltage does not go too high. On electric motors, supply a 5v
electric motor with 24v and that motor is definitely going to start burning
up.There is means to govern the motor RPMs. So yes its a governor or another
variation that does the same thing. It keeps the motor supply voltage to not
go too high. Seriously if I were to put 120v into that motor, that hall of
effect sensor isn't going to do any good. The motor will burn.
The motor driving this isn't any more then what drives an RC-10. Just RC-10
motors are bigger. Same rule and principle. An electric motor is an electric
motor. I didn't say there is an eject motor but an eject button. CD-ROMs may
have an eject motor.
Lewin A.R.W. Edwards
> > What? Normal 3.5" floppies do not include an eject motor. Apple's
> > drives have always included the mechanism for a mechanical front-panel
> > eject button but there is no plastic button clipped to it. The eject
>
> > This will not work. FDD hub motors, like most other media motors, are
> > accurately speed-controlled to by firmware on the drive itself,
> > independent of supply voltage. There is a Hall effect sensor on the
>
> Yes, indeed. This is nothing more then a governor on the motor. That is
> controlled by firmware to ensure that the
What the hell? It is not "just" an electric motor with a commutator
&c, it is a set of coils independently controlled by an ASIC. If you
put 5.1V on the 5V rail the speed will NOT change. You can diddle the
supply voltage all you like and it will not change the rotation speed;
at one extreme, the drive won't have enough energy to rotate, and at
the other the controller IC will go into thermal shutdown.
The Hall effect sensor provides a 1rpm pulse train back to the ASIC
controlling the motor, so that it can adjust the energizing timing of
the coils appropriately.
As for eject motors: You said that soft-eject is possible on any
drive. This is clearly not true. Apple drives include a separate
actuator (I believe it's a motor; could be a solenoid) that physically
operates the eject mechanism. You want to tell me now that all PC
drives include this (unused) actuator also?
Martijn van Buul
> You said t Apple drives include a separate actuator (I believe it's a motor;
> could be a solenoid) that physically operates the eject mechanism.
Judging from the happily whirring sound from my macs, it's definately a
motor ;0
> You want to tell me now that all PC drives include this (unused) actuator
> also?
Wildstar has a "wild imagination" to say the least.
Wildstar
different. Mac was obscure about alot of things. The IBM PC floppy drive
mechanism is the same as Commodore because Chinon (C='s drive mechanism
supplier built it the same as NEC,Teac,Matsushita with nearly absolute
identical mechanism. Such mild differences. Mostly quality of springs, and
gear mechanism and those relative unimportant parts.(but important for the
drive to work of course)
There is relatively no difference between a IBM 720KB drive from a 1581
drive. The 1440 KB or 1.44 MB drives used by CMD and C='s 1591 (prototypes)
where simply High Density AT PC style 3.5" Floppy drive mechanism with a C=
Floppy Controller board.
Impmon
typed:
>As for eject motors: You said that soft-eject is possible on any
>drive. This is clearly not true. Apple drives include a separate
>actuator (I believe it's a motor; could be a solenoid) that physically
>operates the eject mechanism. You want to tell me now that all PC
>drives include this (unused) actuator also?
It's a motor, a plain vanilla 4 stage stepper motor with a worm gear on
its shaft to pull the eject lever (the same eject lever used in
emergency eject through the tiny hole) This part is true for pre
PowerPC style disk drive, later version loads and eject the disk a bit
differently and I haven't ripped one apart yet to see what drives the
ejection.
Evan Wilder
>
>
> Wildstar has a "wild imagination" to say the least.
A "Rosean imagination"?
Or would that be "Rosey" or perhaps "Roseate"?
Or maybe "Josephish"?
E-
Mert Uckan
does anybody still have gerbers or brd files for me that I can reproduce a 1581 board. It seems evey link has been broken.
thanks