KIM-1: A legend lives on...
Paul Förster
... I received a KIM-1 around a week ago and I didn't dare to power it up.
Since the KIM-1 does not hat a power supply per se, I connected it to a
standard PC power supply which delivers exactly what is needed: +5V and, if one
wants to connect a tape, +12V, both +/- 5%.
I finally flipped the switch and the LEDs lit up. I entered the small adding
example from the User Manual and started the thing. Everything works just fine.
After almost a quarter of a century, a legend has returned to the living. :-)
--
cul8er,
Paul
oo
pa...@gmx.net ~( "> paul_f...@ac3.maus.de
Cameron Kaiser
>I finally flipped the switch and the LEDs lit up. I entered the small adding
>example from the User Manual and started the thing. Everything works just fine.
>After almost a quarter of a century, a legend has returned to the living. :-)
Yes, KIMs are fun devices. I got one in high school and it came with no
documentation except for cryptic instructions for driving the cassette
interface. We managed to figure it out anyway. :-) Only very recently did
I finally find spare copies of the documentation, and treasure trove of all,
Jim Butterfield's priceless tome "The First Book of KIM-1".
--
Cameron Kaiser * cka...@stockholm.ptloma.edu * posting with a Commodore 128
-- supporting the Commodore 64 and 128: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/cwi/ --
personal page: http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/
Paul Förster
CK>Yes, KIMs are fun devices. I got one in high school and it came with no
CK>documentation except for cryptic instructions for driving the cassette
CK>interface. We managed to figure it out anyway. :-)
... you had a cassette interface? That's funny because in the docs, there's
only mentioned how to connect the KIM to a standard cassette recorder. Using
the KIM is easy and can IMHO be figured out in less than 5 minutes. :)
CK>Only very recently did I finally find spare copies of the
CK>documentation, and treasure trove of all, Jim Butterfield's priceless
CK>tome "The First Book of KIM-1".
... would you sell Jims book to me? I'm desparately looking for a copy, or
rather the original. :-)
Richard A. Cini
new clone, and two original ones. I got them last summer out of a filing
cabinet belonging to a recently-retired professor. Not stored by the chap in
the best of ways, either. I'm hoping that no lasting damage had been done by
their haphazard storage.
I feel that a proper ceremony is required to exorcise the Daemons of Old
Silicon and power them up. Alas, I haven't had the time :-)
Rich
-----------------------------------
[ Rich Cini/WUGNET
[ ClubWin!/CW7
[ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
[ Collector of "classic" computers
[ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/
<---------------------------- reply separator
Cameron Kaiser <cka...@stockholm.ptloma.edu> wrote in message
news:pgMt3.14724$3r2.3...@newscene.newscene.com...
> Paul_F...@ac3.maus.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Paul_F=F6rster?=) writes:
>
> >I finally flipped the switch and the LEDs lit up. I entered the small
adding
> >example from the User Manual and started the thing. Everything works just
fine.
> >After almost a quarter of a century, a legend has returned to the living.
:-)
>
> Yes, KIMs are fun devices. I got one in high school and it came with no
> documentation except for cryptic instructions for driving the cassette
> interface. We managed to figure it out anyway. :-) Only very recently did
> I finally find spare copies of the documentation, and treasure trove of
all,
Cameron Kaiser
>... you had a cassette interface? That's funny because in the docs, there's
>only mentioned how to connect the KIM to a standard cassette recorder. Using
>the KIM is easy and can IMHO be figured out in less than 5 minutes. :)
Yes. The previous owner had apparently built it into the briefcase it came
in.
>>Only very recently did I finally find spare copies of the
>>documentation, and treasure trove of all, Jim Butterfield's priceless
>>tome "The First Book of KIM-1".
>... would you sell Jims book to me? I'm desparately looking for a copy, or
>rather the original. :-)
No. :-) (It took me some time to find it, and I got it for only US$9! :-)
Paul Förster
RAC> I'm kind of afraid of powering up my KIMs. I have three.
... you have three of them? WHOW! I'd sell two if I was you. :) Do you also
have Microchess?
RAC>One, a brand new clone, and two original ones. I got them last summer
RAC>out of a filing cabinet belonging to a recently-retired professor. Not
RAC>stored by the chap in the best of ways, either. I'm hoping that no
RAC>lasting damage had been done by their haphazard storage.
... you get to know it immediately after powering it up and pushing the reset
key. The display should show "BE18 F8". :)
RAC> I feel that a proper ceremony is required to exorcise the Daemons
RAC>of Old Silicon and power them up. Alas, I haven't had the time :-)
... mine didn't require any ceremony. I did take much time to carefully solder
the power connector, tho, so that the spirits of all evil power don't even dare
to show up. :)
RaYzor
On Wed, 18 Aug 1999 01:17:00 +0200, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Paul_F=F6rster?= wrote about Re: KIM-1: A legend lives on...:
Hi allz,
Regarding these KIM-1 'machines' :
I have been looking for one of these forever. Would anyone be willing
to sell me one for a reasonable price? I would really like to get one
of these things and ... if needed .. I will trade some of my older
Commodore equipment for one .. I have things like B-128 and PET's ..
Thanks..
RaYzor
ray...@northnet.org
--
Jim Butterfield
: RAC> ... I'm hoping that no
: RAC>lasting damage had been done by their haphazard storage.
: ... you get to know it immediately after powering it up and pushing the reset
: key. The display should show "BE18 F8". :)
It's likely worth mentioning that you must make an external connection
(other than the power supply, of course) to ensure that onboard memory
decoding does its job. (Sorry, don't remember the pin designations right
now). In past years, I heard from several new KIM owners who thought
their units were defective because that connection hadn't been put in.
--Jim
Joe Forster/STA
is: CPU, RAM, video, sound, periphery, lookout, startup
screen, programming? A URL would also be fine, I guess...
I haven't seen a KIM-1 before... Thanks in advance!
Joe Forster/STA
s...@c64.org
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Cameron Kaiser
>Can you, please, explain me in short what this KIM-1 machine
>is: CPU, RAM, video, sound, periphery, lookout, startup
>screen, programming? A URL would also be fine, I guess...
>I haven't seen a KIM-1 before... Thanks in advance!
A KIM-1 is a 6502, a couple of RIOTs and 1K RAM, connected up to 6 8-segment
LEDs, a hex keypad with some monitor keys, and some I/O card edges. It was
originally manufactured by Chuck Peddle's MOS Technology, and Commodore
also made them (mine is a Commodore unit) after Tramiel bought MOS Tech out.
KIM stands for Keyboard Input Monitor -- some people have connected teletype
terminals up to them and used them that way. Clever. :-)
There is also a SuperKIM, and the Synertek AIM-65, which is a clone with a
Rockwell 65C02 CPU.
Cameron Kaiser
>>I'm kind of afraid of powering up my KIMs. I have three.
>... you have three of them? WHOW! I'd sell two if I was you. :) Do you also
>have Microchess?
Boy, I'd love to get MicroChess myself, too. Anyone got a disassembly or
even a hex dump around?
Paul Förster
CK>Yes. The previous owner had apparently built it into the briefcase it
CK>came in.
... eh, just for curiosity reasons: You don't really refer to the standard
3.5mm earphone and microphone jacks which are just wired straight thru to one
of the two ports? Or was there a real interface of some sort?
CK>No. :-) (It took me some time to find it, and I got it for only US$9!
CK>:-)
... ok, I offer you $10. :-) Then would you copy it for me and send it?
Paul Förster
R>I have been looking for one of these forever. Would anyone be willing
R>to sell me one for a reasonable price?
... it's unlikely that you can pay what it's worth to me. :_) Sorry, no chance
on my side. Maybe ask Richard Cini. :)
RaYzor
On Wed, 18 Aug 1999 21:10:00 +0200, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Paul_F=F6rster?= wrote about Re: KIM-1: A legend lives on...:
Paul,
Well thats not too nice to say! Why don't you tell me what you are
asking for one of them. And who is Richard Cini? Should I know this
guy for some reason?
RaYzor
--
Larry Anderson
>
> Can you, please, explain me in short what this KIM-1 machine
> is: CPU, RAM, video, sound, periphery, lookout, startup
> screen, programming? A URL would also be fine, I guess...
> I haven't seen a KIM-1 before... Thanks in advance!
The kim-1 is MOS 6502 (pre Commodore) single board computer (where the
computer, memory, display and keypad are soldered on the motherboard.
No fancy boxes, just a circuit board that features:
CPU - 6502
RAM - 1k
ROM - 2k
Keyboard - 23 key hexadecimal keypad
Display - 6 digit LED display
Cassette interface
44 pin expansion edge connetor
You programmed the thing in machine language (in hexadecimal) and were able to
display stuff on the six digit screen, later enhancements gave it the ability
to display video graphics, etc.
--
01000011 01001111 01001101 01001101 01001111 01000100 01001111 01010010 01000101
Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (209) 754-1363 300-2400 baud
Commodore 8-bit page at: http://www.jps.net/foxnhare/commodore.html
01000011 01001111 01001101 01010000 01010101 01010100 01000101 01010010 01010011
Beezlebub
>CK>Only very recently did I finally find spare copies of the
>CK>documentation, and treasure trove of all, Jim Butterfield's priceless
>CK>tome "The First Book of KIM-1".
>
>... would you sell Jims book to me? I'm desparately looking for a copy, or
>rather the original. :-)
There is some information available at:
http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/my_docs.htm
No Butterfield book however. ;-(
But for those interested, somewhere in there are plans to build a slightly
more modernized KIM.
pax,
Beez
Ben Hardy
would probably photocopy it for you!) and try to make a new one, most people
don't think it would be the same but it's better than not having one!!
Ben Hardy
RaYzor <rayzor...@northnet.org> wrote in message
news:tdFu3.44$ss2....@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
Jim Butterfield
>
> Can you, please, explain me in short what this KIM-1 machine
> is: CPU, RAM, video, sound, periphery, lookout, startup
> screen, programming? A URL would also be fine, I guess...
> I haven't seen a KIM-1 before... Thanks in advance!
Shortly after MOS Technology, Inc. developed the 6502 processor chip,
they designed a single-board computer called the KIM-1 to show off the
capabilities of the chip family, and to allow engineering prototyping.
Apart from the obvious things that a computer must have (CPU, RAM, I/O
chips), they threw on the board just about anything that they thought
someone might like to have as an interface. For example: the basic
monitor program allowed a hex keypad input (hey, KIM stands for Keyboard
Input Monitor) and 6-digit LED display; it had a bit-banger audio output
which could be used to store programs on a cassette tape unit; it had a
corresponding PLL audio input line that would read back from such a
cassette tape; and it had teletype input/output facilities (again,
bit-banger). Its basic RAM was 1K, supplemented by a little extra RAM in
the 6530 I/O chips.
A feature of the board that many users never realized, perhaps, is that
all on-board devices were selectable via external connections. What that
means is that you could plug the KIM-1 board into a mother housing, which
could, as desired, disconnect any or all of the peripheral circuits, I/O
chips, RAM, or the ROMs containing the monitor.
It's likely that MOS Technology designed the board as a tool for
engineers, with the message "Hey, design your own system and copy the
things you like from this board". I suspect they were quite amazed when
sales started to approach the 100,000 mark!
Here's my take on what happened: computer hobbyists discovered that, for
the first time, there was a standard preassembled board that would be the
same for all users. Back in those days, most computers came as a printed
circuit board and a bag of parts which you had to assemble yourself.
More, everybody made a slightly different system: some had a CRT
display, some had LEDs, some had teletype; varying amounts of memory were
fitted, mapped to a variety of addresses; and operating systems were
whatever you could scare up.
But suddenly there was the KIM-1. It was fully assembled (although you
had to add a power supply). Everybody's KIM-1 was essentially the same
(although the CPU added an extra instruction during the KIM-1's
production life).
And this created something that was never before part of the home
computer phenomenon: users could quite happily exchange programs with
each other; magazines could publish such programs; and people could talk
about a known system.
We knew the 6502 chip was great, but it took quite a while to convince
the majority of computer hobbyists. MOS Technology offered this CPU at a
price that was a fraction of what the other available chips cost. We
faced the attitude that "it must be no good because it's too cheap," even
though the 6502, with its pipelined architecture, outperformed the 8080
and the 6800.
The arrival of the KIM-1 and its user group was, I think, a landmark in
early personal computer history.
--Jim
Cameron Kaiser
>>Yes. The previous owner had apparently built it into the briefcase it
>>came in.
>... eh, just for curiosity reasons: You don't really refer to the standard
>3.5mm earphone and microphone jacks which are just wired straight thru to one
>of the two ports? Or was there a real interface of some sort?
The interface I have is one 1/4" jack that turns into two 1/8" mono jacks
with an adapter. (My metric->English converter is currently malfunctioning
after anatomy class.)
Ron Slaminko
to turn them on occasionally or not? If so, how often and for how long? I was
wondering whether the life is extended or degraded by passing electricity
through them, letting them warm up, etc. Most sudden failures I hear of occur
when a machine is turned on after sitting unused for an extended period.
Opinions?
Paul Förster
JB>It's likely worth mentioning that you must make an external connection
JB>(other than the power supply, of course) to ensure that onboard memory
JB>decoding does its job. (Sorry, don't remember the pin designations
JB>right now). In past years, I heard from several new KIM owners who
JB>thought their units were defective because that connection hadn't been
JB>put in.
... hmm, that's a little surprise for me because the KIM looks new and not
tampered with. Yet it works without any problem. I didn't yet connect anything
but power to the external connectors, tho. Maybe this sympton shows up only if
either the application or expansion port is used or it does show up only with
certain models?
The next thing for me will be to connect a tape recorder next week. :)
Btw., mine has two things printed on the back: "3077" and "EC1715". Is the
former the manufacturing date in the work week+year, hence mine being made end
between Monday, 25 and Sunday 31 in the year 1977? And what does the latter
mean?
Andre Fachat
> Boy, I'd love to get MicroChess myself, too. Anyone got a disassembly or
> even a hex dump around?
The PET version is on funet. Sorry, no KIM-1 version.
Andre
--
Email address may be invalid. Use "fachat AT physik DOT tu-chemnitz DOT de"
------Fight SPAM - join CAUCE http://www.cauce.org------Thanks, spammers...
Andre Fachat, Institute of physics, Technische Universität Chemnitz, FRG
http://www.tu-chemnitz.de/~fachat
Matthew W. Miller
>Paul_F...@ac3.maus.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Paul_F=F6rster?=) writes:
>>... eh, just for curiosity reasons: You don't really refer to the standard
>>3.5mm earphone and microphone jacks which are just wired straight thru to one
>>of the two ports? Or was there a real interface of some sort?
>The interface I have is one 1/4" jack that turns into two 1/8" mono jacks
>with an adapter. (My metric->English converter is currently malfunctioning
>after anatomy class.)
It's Inner Space Anthology time! :)
1 inch = 2.540 centimetres (25.40 millimetres)
1/4 inch = 6.35 mm
1/8 inch = 3.175 mm
--
Matthew W. Miller -- ma...@infinet.com
Spiro Trikaliotis
Jim Butterfield wrote:
>Joe Forster/STA wrote:
>Everybody's KIM-1 was essentially the same
>(although the CPU added an extra instruction during the KIM-1's
>production life).
An extra instruction? Which one was it?
Waiting for enlightment,
Spiro.
Paul Förster
JFS>Can you, please, explain me in short what this KIM-1 machine
JFS>is:
... the KIM-1 is a single-board computer which had, much like the other
computers of that time, no real keyboard but instead only a HEX-keyboard. It
has no screen, but only a HEX-dislay. It has two big 44-pin ports to expand it
with your own custom made hardware. "KIM" AFAIK stands for "Keyboard Interface
Monitor".
JFS>CPU
... 6502.
JFS>RAM
... 1KB including things like processor stack and some "system-variables".
There's an additional 128 bytes available in the two 6530 chips.
JFS>video
... none, instead it has a 6-digit 7-segment LED HEX-display, displaying three
bytes in HEX notation. The first two make up an address and the third is the
byte stored at that location.
JFS>sound
... you can connect a speaker via the connectors for a tape recorder and hear
data coming from the recorder. The manual also mentions how to connect a
speaker to the system and generating sounds with different frequencies.
JFS>periphery
... none, not even a power supply. You have to build your own. How to do this
is described in the manual. I use a standard PC power supply, but added a quick
reacting fuse for the 5V and 12V connection each to reflect the KIMs needs or
dimensions respectively.
You can connect any ordinary tape recorder that has an earphone and a
microphone jack. But again, you have to get the extra device and solder your
own cabling. Call the latter the KIM-principle. :^)
You can also connect a "teleprinter" (whatever this is. Is it a dumb ASCII
terminal?). Connecting the teleprinter is also mentioned in the manual.
The KIM has two 6530 chips, each containing 1KB ROM code, 64 bytes RAM, two
bidirectional ports and a timer. These two 6530 and the 6502 are the only big
chips. Despite the 1K RAM, the rest is made up of TTL logic.
JFS>lookout
... simple roughly DIN-A4 paper size naked PCB with the components on it. No
case! It's just the PCB containing the chips, resistors, capacitors, the quarz,
the display and keyboard. It looks like and actually is a naked piece of
electronics.
JFS>startup screen
... depends. If you connect it directly to a PC power supply, I get "BE18F8" if
I use the PC supply's switch which does not seem to deliver proper current
which results in a little LED flashing at power down time until the PC supply
has fully discharged. I did put an switch and fuses between the KIM and the PC
power supply. If I now flip the switch with the power supply already switched
on, I get either "BE10C6" or "BE18F8" or "9E10C6". I didn't get any other yet,
tho the KIM is in an undefined state after power-up. It has to be reset first
to wake it up. No sooner will the display light up. There is no automatic reset
at power-up time.
If you connect it to a teleprinter, it will greet you with just "KIM" and wait
for the rub-out key to be pressed. Thus it will determine the speed of the
connection to the teleprinter. You can then start working.
JFS>programming?
... purely 6502 only. You have to do everything in hexadecimal, even with the
teleprinter. In Germany, we have the term "Hexer" which not only denotes a
person who can program entirely using just the HEX codes and knowing them by
heart, but it also denotes a person practicing witchcraft. Coincidence, yes,
but funny. :)
JFS>A URL would also be fine, I guess...
... take a look at Dr. Ian Pun's site: http://www.total.net/~yhpun/Kim-1.html
JFS>I haven't seen a KIM-1 before... Thanks in advance!
... I can supply you with two pictures, one showing the KIM and all its manuals
plus Jim's "First Book of KIM". And one showing only the KIM. The latter gives
more details though it is of poor quality. Dr. Ian Pun's page has also a small
picture of the KIM and another showing his own hardware expansion.
Paul Förster
CK>Boy, I'd love to get MicroChess myself, too. Anyone got a disassembly
CK>or even a hex dump around?
... eh, I have a peper copy and don't (yet!) feel like hacking it into my
keyboard. :-) If I ever do, I'll let you know. But it's not much of use without
the documentation anyway, so I'd have to hack that into my keyboard also. And
that definitely takes much more time. :)
Paul Förster
R>Well thats not too nice to say!
... why?
R>Why don't you tell me what you are asking for one of them.
... ok, how about 10 mega-bucks? :_) Btw., it's not "one of them". I have only
one KIM. And be sure, I'll keep this one.
R>And who is Richard Cini? Should I know this guy for some reason?
... if you'd follow this newsgroup, then you'd know that Richard Cini is the
guy who owns THREE of them. He just recently said that.
Cameron Kaiser
>>Boy, I'd love to get MicroChess myself, too. Anyone got a disassembly or
>>even a hex dump around?
>The PET version is on funet. Sorry, no KIM-1 version.
But that's no fun. I'm interested in seeing something play chess in 1K! :-)
Cameron Kaiser
>>Everybody's KIM-1 was essentially the same
>>(although the CPU added an extra instruction during the KIM-1's
>>production life).
>An extra instruction? Which one was it?
ROR, which appeared after 1976.
Paul Förster
JB>(hey, KIM stands for Keyboard Input Monitor)
... ooops. Isn't the "I" the "Interface" as I always thought? Ok, my mistake.
JB>RAM was 1K, supplemented by a little extra RAM in the 6530 I/O chips.
... the extra RAM ist 64 bytes in each of the two chips, making it 128 bytes.
JB>(although the CPU added an extra instruction during the KIM-1's
JB>production life).
... what instruction was that?
Paul Förster
CK>The interface I have is one 1/4" jack
... 6.35 mm.
CK>that turns into two 1/8" mono jacks
... 3.175 mm.
CK>with an adapter.
... hmmm, strange. And what does this interface consist of and what does it do?
Any switches, LEDs or something? Is it programmable in some way? I mean,
there's no such thing as a LOAD command. How does it work?
CK>(My metric->English converter is currently malfunctioning after anatomy
CK>class.)
... an inch is 25.4 mm, just to make things easy. :-)
Richard A. Cini
I'd love to scan and post a copy of Jim's book (I have a copy, which
took me *forever* to find). But, without his and his co-authors' permission,
I can't do that (copyright laws and such).
It's a great book, with lots of helpful information and examples.
Rich
-----------------------------------
[ Rich Cini/WUGNET
[ ClubWin!/CW7
[ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
[ Collector of "classic" computers
[ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/
<---------------------------- reply separator
Beezlebub <bee...@hell.com> wrote in message
news:8E26C362Dbeez...@news.earthlink.net...
Richard A. Cini
This may be listed in the KIM manuals...
{later}
On page 8 of the KIM User's Guide (Section 2.3; available on my Web
site), the instructions are to connect +5VDC to Connector A/Pin A, +12VDC to
Connector A/Pin N, and Gnd to Connector A/Pins 1 and K. Connector A is
directly opposite the keypad.
Apparently pin K is the important one. Here's an excerpt from the
book...
>>>>
Remove the (A) connector from the module and connect the pins as
shown in the sketch.
[---------]
[ A ]<-------------(+ 5v -)--]
[ ] |
[ N ]<-------------(+ 12v -)--]
[ ] |
[ 1 ]<--| |
[ K ]<--|-------------------------- |
[---------]
Power Supply Connections
FIGURE 2.2
Reinstall the (A) connector making certain that the orientation is
correct.
Note 1: The +12 volt power supply is required only if you
will be using an audio cassette recorder in your system.
Note 2: The jumper from pin A-K to Vss (Pin A-1) is essential
for system operation. If you expand your system later,
this jumper will be removed and we'll tell you what to
do to pin A-K.
Note 3. If you don't have the proper power supplies already
available, you may wish to construct the low cost
version shown with schematic and parts list in
Appendix D. In any event, your power supply must
be regulated to insure correct system operation and
must be capable of supplying the required current
levels indicated in the sketch.
<<<<<
Hope this helps.
Rich
-----------------------------------
[ Rich Cini/WUGNET
[ ClubWin!/CW7
[ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
[ Collector of "classic" computers
[ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/
<---------------------------- reply separator
Jim Butterfield <f...@torfree.net> wrote in message
news:FGo907.Kps...@torfree.net...
> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Paul_F=F6rster?= (Paul_F...@ac3.maus.de) wrote:
>
> : RAC> ... I'm hoping that no
> : RAC>lasting damage had been done by their haphazard storage.
>
> : ... you get to know it immediately after powering it up and pushing the
reset
> : key. The display should show "BE18 F8". :)
>
> It's likely worth mentioning that you must make an external connection
> (other than the power supply, of course) to ensure that onboard memory
> decoding does its job. (Sorry, don't remember the pin designations right
> now). In past years, I heard from several new KIM owners who thought
> their units were defective because that connection hadn't been put in.
>
> --Jim
>
Richard A. Cini
> ... you have three of them? WHOW! I'd sell two if I was you. :)
I originally had 5!! Two were non-working, so I traded them to two good
friends from the Classic Computing list, since they helped me a great deal
when I first got into this hobby about 3 years ago.
There is an interesting story behind the 5 KIMs. I have a friend who
runs the CS Lab at Temple University. I had gone there several times to
pick-up PDP11 stuff, and he said that there was a hallway *full* of filing
cabinets, all filled with junk from the prior *owner*. The prior lab
manager, a man in his 60's retired shortly before, and was a total pack-rat.
So, while I was rummaging through the cabinets, stocking-up on legacy
ISA cards, paper tape, and PDP printsets, I came across five KIMs.
On the first pass, I didn't realize what they were, so I left them. I
knew of the KIMs, but never saw one. It wasn't until I saw an add for the
KIM in a *load* of Byte magazines that I picked-up there (I have most issues
from 1975 to 1988), that I knew what they were. Naturally, I made another
trip there to get them.
>Do you also have Microchess?
No, but if I come across a copy, I'll let you know.
Rich
-----------------------------------
[ Rich Cini/WUGNET
[ ClubWin!/CW7
[ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
[ Collector of "classic" computers
[ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/
<---------------------------- reply separator
Paul Förster <Paul_F...@ac3.maus.de> wrote in message
news:199908180...@ac3.maus.de...
> Hi Richard,
>
> RAC> I'm kind of afraid of powering up my KIMs. I have three.
>
> ... you have three of them? WHOW! I'd sell two if I was you. :) Do you
also
> have Microchess?
>
> RAC>One, a brand new clone, and two original ones. I got them last summer
> RAC>out of a filing cabinet belonging to a recently-retired professor. Not
> RAC>stored by the chap in the best of ways, either. I'm hoping that no
> RAC>lasting damage had been done by their haphazard storage.
>
> ... you get to know it immediately after powering it up and pushing the
reset
> key. The display should show "BE18 F8". :)
>
> RAC> I feel that a proper ceremony is required to exorcise the Daemons
> RAC>of Old Silicon and power them up. Alas, I haven't had the time :-)
>
> ... mine didn't require any ceremony. I did take much time to carefully
solder
> the power connector, tho, so that the spirits of all evil power don't even
dare
> to show up. :)
Jim Butterfield
: Hi Jim,
: JB>(hey, KIM stands for Keyboard Input Monitor)
: ... ooops. Isn't the "I" the "Interface" as I always thought? Ok, my mistake.
Could be .. I remember it as "Input", but it's been a lo.o.o.o.ong time.
KIM followed the issuance of a ROM chip called TIM - Teletype
Input/Interface Monitor - that MOS Technology made available. TIM was
later resurrected, in modified form, as the PET's 2001 Machine Language
Monitor.
: JB>(although the CPU added an extra instruction during the KIM-1's
: JB>production life).
: ... what instruction was that?
ROR, Rotate Right. It didn't exist in the early 6502 chips, or in the
early KIM-1 units. When we put together the First Book Of Kim, we
carefully avoided the use of this instruction, even though by that time
it was standard on new units.
--Jim
Charles Bond
KIM-1, or SYM-1, or AIM-65 boards? Anyone know
where I could get my hands on one? Could they all
have disappeared (except for those in the hands of
collectors)?
Paul Förster wrote:
> Hi Cameron,
>
> CK>Yes, KIMs are fun devices. I got one in high school and it came with no
> CK>documentation except for cryptic instructions for driving the cassette
> CK>interface. We managed to figure it out anyway. :-)
>
> ... you had a cassette interface? That's funny because in the docs, there's
> only mentioned how to connect the KIM to a standard cassette recorder. Using
> the KIM is easy and can IMHO be figured out in less than 5 minutes. :)
>
> CK>Only very recently did I finally find spare copies of the
> CK>documentation, and treasure trove of all, Jim Butterfield's priceless
> CK>tome "The First Book of KIM-1".
>
> ... would you sell Jims book to me? I'm desparately looking for a copy, or
> rather the original. :-)
Paul Förster
CK>But that's no fun. I'm interested in seeing something play chess in 1K!
CK>:-)
... don't expect it to play toooo profesionally. ;-) At least, you can set up
any board layout and play either side, if you want. It does not check for
illegal moves nor check(-mate) itself, tho. It will, however, get your king
whenever possible. :)
Paul Förster
B>There is some information available at:
B>http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/my_docs.htm
... yes, I know. This URL already has been in my bookmarks long before. :-)
B>No Butterfield book however. ;-(
... that's the sad thing.
B>But for those interested, somewhere in there are plans to build a
B>slightly more modernized KIM.
... I wonder if this newer version is 100% compatible.
Paul Förster
RAC> I originally had 5!! Two were non-working, so I traded them to two
RAC>good friends from the Classic Computing list, since they helped me a
RAC>great deal when I first got into this hobby about 3 years ago.
... sounds like they were not such too good friends after all. ;-)
RAC> So, while I was rummaging through the cabinets, stocking-up on
RAC>legacy ISA cards, paper tape, and PDP printsets, I came across five
RAC>KIMs.
... I'd like to have searched that place... :)
RAC>Naturally, I made another trip there to get them.
... who wouldn't have done that? :)
RAC> No, but if I come across a copy, I'll let you know.
... well, when I some day find some time, I'll certainly convert MicroChess to
etext.
Paul Förster
CB>Is there an old warehouse somewhere with a stash of
CB>KIM-1, or SYM-1, or AIM-65 boards? Anyone know
CB>where I could get my hands on one? Could they all
CB>have disappeared (except for those in the hands of
CB>collectors)?
... it seems that way. As some other people seem to have gotten theirs by
'accident', this is what happened to me too. Unfortunately, there is no old
warehouse that you can dig thru.
I found one on Ebay and placed a bid up to some $200+. But someone finally
outbid me some 30 mins before the end of the auction and I couldn't raise
because I simply wasn't online then.
Two days later, I received an email from someone saying he noticed my bid on
Ebay and told me that he would sell a KIM-1 in very good shape including
manuals and some self-built hartware stuff. He asked if I was still willing to
pay the $200+ which I had bid on Ebay. He sent me pictures of the thing and
thus we made the deal. And I don't regret it. :-)
The total was much more expensive, tho. The German customs office demanded its
share as well as did the USPS. The overall costs of the KIM, the manuals, many
"magazines" from these old days, the customs office share and the postage made
it total some $280. Not the cheapest one in my collection...
Paul Förster
JB>KIM followed the issuance of a ROM chip called TIM - Teletype
JB>Input/Interface Monitor - that MOS Technology made available. TIM was
JB>later resurrected, in modified form, as the PET's 2001 Machine Language
JB> Monitor.
... I know this monitor. My PET has it too, but it doesn't understand the "A"
command which makes entering pieces of code a painful procedure. :-) Btw., in
the Oct-Nov 1977 issue of "Micro - the 6502 Journal" on page 5, the TIM is
referred to as "Terminal Interface Monitor".
JB>ROR, Rotate Right. It didn't exist in the early 6502 chips, or in the
JB>early KIM-1 units.
... hmm, not that you say it, I took a look in the KIM-1 Hardware Manual where
I found the following remark on top of page 150: "Available on microprocessors
after June, 1976"
JB>When we put together the First Book Of Kim, we carefully avoided the
JB>use of this instruction, even though by that time it was standard on
JB>new units.
... compatibility always was an issue. :-) Did MOS simply "forget" this
instruction somehow or why was it added so late?
My KIM-1 seems to understand that instruction. The following code demonstrates
this:
* = $0000
start .eq $1c4f
value .eq $aa
pointl .eq $fa
0000 a9 aa lda #value
0002 6a ror
0003 85 fa sta pointl
0005 4c 4f 1c jmp start
Running this code will show "55" as the 3rd and 4th digit in the display if the
6502 understands the ROR instruction. Otherwise, the KIM is most likely to
crash. ;-)
This proves that the contents of the accumulator has been moved right by one
bit. Hence, my KIM has a post-June, 1976 model 6502 CPU. Yet, it's a MOS
computer (Rev. A) and not a C= model. This is reflected by the logo on the top
right corner.
A picture of a Commodore KIM-1 on the cover page of the April 1979 issue of
"Micro" shows a combined "commodore" - "C= MOS" logo while mine only has "MOS"
on the PCB. Also, Commodore has slightly changed the keyboard.
Daniel
=> Is there an old warehouse somewhere with a stash of
=> KIM-1, or SYM-1, or AIM-65 boards?
(I apologize for dropping in on comp.sys.cbm and this discussion several
weeks late.) Who cares about those poor excuses for computers mentioned
by Charles? :)
Anybody who was anyone had a Motorola MEK6800D2 Evaluation Kit: an
unassembled 660KHz 6800 CPU board with 256 bytes of RAM (IIRC) and
a hex-keyboard/LED-display board (like the KIM's). I later added
another 1K of RAM: a ceramic breadboard with a 1024x8 IC and, I guess,
an address-decoding chip. The breadboard was strapped by rubberbands
to a 22/44-connector card whose connector spacing happened to match
that of a Motorola EXORCISER motherboard (actually a wire-wrap cage)
I picked up in a surplus store. Even later, I added 13K of RAM, an
ASCII keyboard for input, and my ham-radio brother built me an
interface to his Baudot TTY for output.
I believe the Motorola standard cassette interface was faster than
the KIM's *and* I was able to load a 6800 Basic interpreter from one
of INTERFACE AGE magazine's "vinyl floppies"!
My Bible in those days? Why, Jim Butterfield's THE FIRST BOOK OF KIM,
of course! Wrong CPU, but the system-level ideas applied to both the
KIM and the MEK kit, and I implemented several of his games. When you
all began talking about the book, I got worried that I had gotten rid
of my copy; fortunately, I still have it.
Aahh, the good old days ...
Alex
(Later owner of VIC-20, C=64, and a C=128 whose 1571 couldn't load
the Paperback/Pocket applications during the winter months.)
Spiro Trikaliotis
Daniel wrote:
>On Sun, 22 Aug 1999 06:52:40 -0700, Charles Bond
<cb...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> => Is there an old warehouse somewhere with a stash of
> => KIM-1, or SYM-1, or AIM-65 boards?
BTW: The book "6502 Assembly Language Programming" by Lance A.
Leventhal mentions a VIM besides the KIM, SYM and the AIM-65.
Does anybode know if these µC where identical or not, and if not, what
differences they had?
TIA,
Spiro.
John Iannetta
"BTW: The book "6502 Assembly Language Programming" by Lance A.
Leventhal mentions a VIM besides the KIM, SYM and the AIM-65.
Does anybode know if these C where identical or not, and if not, what
differences they had?".
I have before me a brochure from Synertek, Inc. One of the paragraph
headings is, "If You Liked KIM You Will Love VIM". The brochure describes the
VIM-1 Microcomputer Board. According to the text, VIM-1 is hardware compatible
with KIM-1. (VIM stands for Versatile Interface Module.) Besides the 6502, a
6532, two 6522's, a 1 MHz crystal, 1 Kbyte of SRAM, and 4 Kbytes of ROM are
used. Also, a six-hexadigit display and a 28-key keypad with aural feedback.
Jim Butterfield tells an interesting story about the various ?IM names.
(Sorry, Jim, I wasn't taking notes.)
--
123 456
789 *0#
If you see a telephone keypad above, you're probably using a Commodore 64.
David Evans
>
> I have before me a brochure from Synertek, Inc. One of the paragraph
>headings is, "If You Liked KIM You Will Love VIM". The brochure describes the
>VIM-1 Microcomputer Board. According to the text, VIM-1 is hardware compatible
>with KIM-1. (VIM stands for Versatile Interface Module.) Besides the 6502, a
>6532, two 6522's, a 1 MHz crystal, 1 Kbyte of SRAM, and 4 Kbytes of ROM are
>used. Also, a six-hexadigit display and a 28-key keypad with aural feedback.
>
Sounds exactly like the SYM. Perhaps they're the same thing with different
names.
What's the date on the brochure?
--
David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfe...@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
Jim Butterield
wrote:
> "Spiro Trikaliotis" <Trik...@gmx.de> said:
>
>"BTW: The book "6502 Assembly Language Programming" by Lance A.
>Leventhal mentions a VIM besides the KIM, SYM and the AIM-65.
VIM (renamed SYM, perhaps because VIM is the registered trademark of a
cleaning product), was produced by Synertek. The AIM was produced by
Rockwell. Both were expansions of the original KIM concept.
The VIM/SYM had the interesting characteristic that the ROM was
"shadowed" into RAM at startup, which allowed the operating system to
be easily patched with new code if desired.
The AIM was interesting in that it came complete with a QERTY keyboard
and alphanumeric display, and a small printer (mounted right on the
circuit board). You could also buy a plastic shell for the AIM which
made it look somewhat like a portable computer terminal. You could
even buy an add-on chip with Basic.
> According to the text, VIM-1 is hardware compatible with KIM-1.
But the operating systems were sufficiently different that they were
not software-compatible.
> Jim Butterfield tells an interesting story about the various ?IM names.
>(Sorry, Jim, I wasn't taking notes.)
Although MOS Technology, who developed the 6502, licensed both
Synertek and Rockwell for second-sourcing the chip, I understand that
they refused to license the KIM-1 board. That's why Synertek &
Rockwell had to develop their own competing boards. Since a
considerable number of programs had been published for the KIM-1, the
newer boards didn't enjoy the same popularity in user communities.
--Jim
Spiro Trikaliotis
thanks for your information!
Spiro.
David Evans
Jim Butterield <f...@torfree.net> wrote:
>
>The VIM/SYM had the interesting characteristic that the ROM was
>"shadowed" into RAM at startup, which allowed the operating system to
>be easily patched with new code if desired.
>
It also has the groovy oscilloscope interface hardware, suitable for doing
simple vector and simulated raster-scan graphics. I've never had the stamina
to type in the support code from the manual, though.
>The AIM was interesting in that it came complete with a QERTY keyboard
>and alphanumeric display, and a small printer (mounted right on the
>circuit board).
Wow. That really wins in the nifty department.
>> According to the text, VIM-1 is hardware compatible with KIM-1.
>
>But the operating systems were sufficiently different that they were
>not software-compatible.
>
As I recall Synertek still called their software Supermon.