Maurice Leaving Commodore!!!!!!
hver...@coyote.accessnv.com
On 13 Nov 1997 xy3...@epix.net wrote:
> Well something has happened that has caused Maurice Randall (our main Geo=
s
> guy) to leave Commodore (or at lest for the most part)!!!!! And do you
> know what it is? It is becuase of pirating!!!!! And when we only have a
> few progrmmers left doing this is just plain STUPID=A0STUPID STUIPD!!!!!!
> This article was put on Genie and I saw it first on The Commodore Interne=
t
> Book For Commodore Users e-mail Group. I can understand passing stuff
> around that is no longer suppored or sold.
> BUT=A0NOT=A0WHEN=A0IT=A0IS=A0STILL=A0SUPPORTED=A0AND=A0SOLD, and not to m=
etion that
> IT=A0IS=A0CUTTING=A0EDGE=A0FOR=A0OUR MACHINES!!!!
> Well I am WAY=A0beyond mad!!!! Everyone in my club was looking forward an=
d
> saving for that program (as was I). I just hope that I never meet any of
> the people that uploaded Geofax or that downloaded it either. And look a=
t
> all the other programs we have lost now becuase of this!!!!!!!!
>=20
> A very very mad
> Dan Barber
> xy3...@epix.net
Maybe the people who have an illegal copy could begin paying and in this
way persuade Maurice to go back to the project?
Man this is BAD!=20
Hernan.
Jean P Nance
The more things change, the more they stay the same. Our
newsletter, back about 1989, reprinted an article by Jim
Butterfield. He told the story of a programmer who put out his
work as shareware, and got something like one $5 payment for
an excellent and usable program that had taken him literally
hundreds of hours to write. This person had planned to abandon
the Commodore entirely. It appears that Maurice Randall isn't
doing that, but it unlikely we will see much more from him.
I am afraid, though, that the bozos who defend their pirating
won't care or notice. Big sigh.....
--
John McCormick
In article <64djic$anv$1...@news1.epix.net>, xy3...@epix.net says...
> Well something has happened that has caused Maurice Randall (our main Geos
> guy) to leave Commodore (or at lest for the most part)!!!!! And do you
> know what it is? It is becuase of pirating!!!!! And when we only have a
> This article was put on Genie and I saw it first on The Commodore Internet
> Book For Commodore Users e-mail Group. I can understand passing stuff
> around that is no longer suppored or sold.
> IT IS CUTTING EDGE FOR OUR MACHINES!!!!
I hate to sound negative but from what I read in his posting he is better
off stopping working on the software. According to him is has been
neglecting everything in his life wife, business home etc to write
software for a very limited market on a fairly defunct machine (don't
flame me I like the C64 and C128 but you can't exactly run down to the
store and buy one). Anyone who expects to run a software company on the
side with only a couple products and expect to make more money than a
full time business has themselves fooled.
xy3...@epix.net
Well something has happened that has caused Maurice Randall (our main Geos
guy) to leave Commodore (or at lest for the most part)!!!!! And do you
know what it is? It is becuase of pirating!!!!! And when we only have a
few progrmmers left doing this is just plain STUPID STUPID STUIPD!!!!!!
This article was put on Genie and I saw it first on The Commodore Internet
Book For Commodore Users e-mail Group. I can understand passing stuff
around that is no longer suppored or sold.
BUT NOT WHEN IT IS STILL SUPPORTED AND SOLD, and not to metion that
IT IS CUTTING EDGE FOR OUR MACHINES!!!!
Well you read for yourself:
* From: toma...@Sysnet.net
* Subject: Maurice Randall
* Moderator Note: Tom Adams is a member of the Tifcu list, but he didn't
specifically tell me it was ok to post this message in the
list (I'll take full responsibility for that). He did,
however, send the Email to several people who care about
programmers in the world of Commodore. This is something
that affects EVERYONE, whether you use the Internet, a BBS,
or are a GEOS fan. It even affects Commodore publications
like Commodore World.
******Dan Barber Note: No one said that I could pass this around either.
But in this case I think that everyone will make an exception. And if
they don't I will also take blame.
I found this announcement on Genie. I believe it is a terrible loss to
the Commodore community. Unfortunatly I don't have an answer and am
sending this to all those Commodore users I have email addresses for in
the hope that someone out there has an answer.
<<<begin quote>>>
I'd like to let everyone know that I've enjoyed being here
and have learned from others and have also enjoyed helping
those that I could whenever I could, but it's time for me
to move on.
I'll be cancelling my Genie subscription at the end of
this month.
If anyone's interested, here's a copy of my editorial
article that's appearing in our user group newsletter this
month.
[start of text]
Editorial for November, 1997
by Maurice Randall
from 'Double Click', the newsletter for the Lansing Area
Commodore Club.
I've had a rather disappointing month. I learned that geoFAX has been
uploaded to some BBS's and made available for free downloading. I
actually found a BBS in California (after being tipped off) and
logged onto it and downloaded the software myself. It was in two
geoPack'd files. One file was side 1 of the disk and the other was
side 2.
Just imagine all the work I put into that software, plus the
fact that it's the only software of its kind for our computers, and
someone feels they have the right to freely distribute it. geoFAX is
a commercial package, there's nothing free about it.
I've done a lot of free work for others over the years, I've
helped out many Commodore users in various ways, either through free
utilities to users or programming ideas to fellow programmers. Seems
like I also deserve the oppportunity to make some money from what I
know. Somebody else doesn't think so.
The copy that I downloaded has been on that BBS since February
of this year. You have to imagine that once it gets downloaded, it
gets passed around to others and also to other BBS's. You know what?
geoFAX sales have dropped off by 90 percent this year. Do you suppose
this has anything to do with it?
On this same board was GEOS 2.0. Just think, you could download
the entire GEOS 2.0 package and geoFAX and have a pretty decent
setup. All for free. And all very much illegal.
Several years ago, I thought it would be kinda neat to get into
the software business and earn a decent living at it. If it turned
out to be lucrative enough, I could devote more time to programming
and less time to my main line of work, auto repair. I don't see it
happening anymore. I've come to the realization that my time is best
spent where I can make a decent living.
Everytime I've cracked down to finish up a program that I've
been working on, I've neglected my customers. They've had to wait
longer to get their cars back. You know what? They all pay for what I
do, and they pay me well. And they don't mind it. I do a good job
diagnosing and repairing their cars and they are pleased when I'm
finished.
Nobody can pirate my work in my auto shop. You can't make a copy
of a transmission rebuild that I did and pass it around. I've never
seen anybody be able to upload and download a valve seal replacement
job on a Chrysler Minivan.
When I was developing geoFAX, I would use a computer setup at
home and also had one set up at work. I spent time during business
hours working on this software. I could have been taking in more auto
repair work and getting more done if I hadn't taken on the task of
creating a fax program for our 64's and 128's. I could have made a
lot more money. geoFAX cost me a lot of money to develop due to these
lost revenues. I've done this with other programming projects also.
Everytime I do it, I get behind on my bills and it takes awhile to
get caught back up. I can't keep doing that.
I've sold almost 500 copies of geoFAX. About 75 percent of those
were wholesale and the rest were direct from me at full price. So,
I've taken in some money from it, but not enough. It took an awful
lot of manhours to get the software developed. The same amount of
time spent fixing cars would have returned 10 times the amount of
money.
geoFAX was quite a rewarding accomplishment from the standpoint
of seeing the software actually working. But from a financial
standpoint, it was a failure. I haven't even made minimum wages from
the product on the time spent, not to mention what could have been
made if I spent my time more wisely.
I had anticipated this would be a product that people would want
to pass around and devised a pretty good method of having an ID
number that was unique to each individual disk. Any attempt to change
this ID number would make the program either act strange or not work
at all. I believe if it weren't for this, the program would be passed
around more than it has.
The copy of geoFAX that I downloaded still has this ID number in
it. I know who the original owner of that disk is. I waited a week
for him to answer my email with no response. So, I sent email again.
This time it came back with an invalid email address. This person has
called me on the phone a few times in the past and I've always
thought he was just one of the loyal Commodore users who has enjoyed
the work that I do. Now I'm not so sure.
Everytime geoFAX sends out a fax, the ID is sent with it. If you
ever get a fax from a geoFAX user and you see 'geoFAX GF-1035A' in
the upper left corner, you'll know it's coming from someone with an
illegal copy. A while back, I learned of another one that was passed
around over in Germany. It has the ID 'GF-1295A'.
It's common knowledge that I'm working on a completely new
upgrade to the GEOS 64 operating system, currently known as 'Project
G'. But GEOS 2.0 is being passed around. What do you suppose would
happen to this new version of GEOS? I've already spent more time on
it than I spent on geoFAX. And it won't take much time to finish it.
My plan was to have it ready by Christmas. I've been polishing up
some of the areas that need the most attention and with a little more
work, this package could be released. Then I would do a 128 version.
Once that was completed, I would do further work on both systems as
well as making a version specifically for the SuperCPU.
For the past couple of weeks, I've slacked off on my computer
activities and concentrated more on what I'm supposed to be
doing..fixing cars. And as always, I come out ahead. I've actually
been able to pay my phone bill, my gas and electric bill, and other
bills. I'm not two or three months behind on them like I usually am.
This sure is a better feeling having some money in my pocket.
I hate to say this, but Project G isn't going to be finished by
Christmas now. I won't neglect my business anymore, it's just not
worth it to me. I'll probably still finish Project G, but I'll only
work on it as I get time. My computing activities are going to be
reduced considerably for the next few months and possibly longer as I
concentrate more on my auto repair shop.
In the lobby of my shop, I started laying down new ceramic tile
about 3 years ago. It's still only half finished. I want to finish
that up. I also want to finish painting the inside of the building.
And I need to get up on the roof and do some repairs there. At home,
my wife is still waiting for me to finish remodeling the bathroom and
finish grouting the tile in the kitchen. It's 'only' been two years.
Should I neglect her any longer?
Part of my reduced computing activities involves my time spent
online. I've had an account with CompuServe for about 9 years now. I
cancelled that subscription about a month ago. I'm going to cancel my
subscription with Genie this month also. I'll keep my account with
Delphi for awhile. There seems to be a decent amount of Commodore
activity there, and Delphi is also my link to the Internet and it's
the source of my most used email address.
I'm also going to quit doing outside computer work, both
programming and article writing.
Of course, my own BBS will remain operating, as it doesn't
occupy much of my time. And I enjoy helping people on the BBS when
they need it. That's a rewarding feeling. It's the official BBS for
our club also. That's something else I will remain with, our own
club. Maybe I can do a better job of getting the newsletter done each
month now instead of always rushing to get it done on time.
I haven't done any auto racing since 1993. That's something I've
always spent my extra time with. Somehow, computing got in the way of
it. I plan to devote my extra time once again to the sport I really
love. Did you know that I was the last person to drive a Chrysler
product in the NASCAR Winston Cup Series? That's a little known fact.
It was in 1985. There hasn't been a Chrysler car eligible for that
series since then. From '86-'88, I ran full time in the ARCA SuperCar
Series. The same cars I used in NASCAR were still allowed for those 3
years with ARCA. I originally thought I could make enough money
programming to help finance my very low-budget racing operation. That
never happened. But since I do all the work on the race cars right
here in my own shop without having to pay someone else to do it for
me, I've been able to participate in this sport. Sure, it's an
expensive sport, but I've always managed to do it with very little
money. And in fact, in 1988, my money winnings totalled just slightly
more than my expenses. I know I haven't won any races or even had any
really good finishes, but at least I can say I've done it. And I can
still do it, and I will.
Computers are just going to have to take a back seat. Only one
problem, though.. my race car doesn't have a back seat.
[end of text]
-Maurice
>>>>end quote>>>
--
Tom Adams, President
Meeting 64/128 Users Through the Mail
* From Gaelyne Gasson <gae...@videocam.net.au>
* Subject: Maurice Randall
Pirating hurts EVERYONE, especially when we come down to having only a
small pool of programmers creating new software for us. I don't have an
answer for Tom, or for Maurice, although Maurice certainly has my
understanding and empathy. In a way, I wish he had given the person's name
involved, as it would help protect the few programmers we have left, but
Maurice has always been an extremely fair person, even in situations where
he's been treated unfairly.
I'm angry, and I feel a deep loss for the entire community of Commodore
users - there's not much that can put it right, so instead of ranting and
raving for another 100 lines or so, I'll end this message.
Did I mention pirating HURTS EVERYONE ???
Gaelyne
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Well I am WAY beyond mad!!!! Everyone in my club was looking forward and
saving for that program (as was I). I just hope that I never meet any of
the people that uploaded Geofax or that downloaded it either. And look at
all the other programs we have lost now becuase of this!!!!!!!!
A very very mad
Dan Barber
xy3...@epix.net
Cameron Kaiser
Piracy is a terrible thing, especially in the 8-bit world. I hope whoever
ruined such a talented programmer as Maurice Randall is satisfied with
him/herself, and I don't blame Maurice for being frustrated. Let this be a
object lesson for all those lusers asking for free registered copies of C64S.
Piracy erodes what little support is available for any legacy computer.
Think before you copy.
Just another (saddened) 8-bit hacker,
--
Cameron Kaiser
cdkaiser at concentric dot net (it hasn't helped the spam yet though)
*** visit the Spectre Server at www.sserv.com
*** C64 software lives! www.computerworkshops.home.ml.org
Jean P Nance
I didn't get the idea that Maurice Randall "wanted to run a
software business on the side and make more money than an
ordinary business". He loves to program, wants to help the Commodore
, and felt that if he could make a decent amount of money from
his programming activities he could afford to spend some of his
time on it. It doesn't sound as if he had any more ambitious
plans than that. And even if he was unrealistic, is that an
excuse for piracy?
--
Timothy Lewis
Jean P Nance (jp...@prairienet.org) wrote:
: I didn't get the idea that Maurice Randall "wanted to run a
I have been a friend of Maurice Randall's for a few years now, and I too
am very sad to see that someone really had the GUTS to pirate his
software! No wonder he feels as bad as he does! I hope whoever did that to
him really gets the shaft! There is NO EXCUSE for ANYONE to do what this
person did and I for one hope that Maurice follows up and makes this joker
pay for his mistake! I have enjoyed the programs that Maurice has created
and I value his computer knowledge. He has helped me quite a bit and I am
grateful to him for doing it.
Maurice did not deserve this to happen to him, but on a larger scale,
nobody deserves to have this happen to them! Since Maurice and I belong to
the same club, I read our latest newsletter and got very sad at Maurices
Editorial (He is the editor of the newsletter, of which I am the
President). I can understand why he said what he said. I do want to clear
up something that I think needs to be cleared up. Maurice is NOT leaving
the Commodore scene entirely......he is stepping back. He has many
projects that he wants to do and so his time on the computer doing
programming will certainly be scaled back quite a bit. After what has
happened, I don't blame him at all! He has done quite alot for the
Commodore Users the world over, but one person can sure defeat all the
work that went into the programs, and do it by piracy!
I left a message on Maurice's BBS, and I thanked him for all the work that
he has done and I encouraged him to continue his programming. I would also
like to encourage all Commodore users that have used his software, to
write to him and tell him that you have benefitted from his software and
to encourage him. It did take the wind out of his sails, and he needs to
know that there are people out there that appreciate his work and that he
does have something worthwhile.
As for Project Geos.....well folks, sad to say it, but it will not be out
before Christmas......(He really had hoped it could be, but now, he
doesn't think it will be)
Well, maybe I have said too much, but I really appreciate the work Maurice
has done and all of you who read this that appreciate his work, I want to
encourage you to Email him, or get on the BBS and drop him a line.....he
needs to have the support of his friends.....So, I am asking that you help
him out. I know he would be grateful to hear from you.
Thanks for letting me ramble on.......
Tim Lewis
(President: Lansing Area Commdore Club)
Blazè Mofondo
Timothy Lewis <lew...@superior.arq.net> wrote in article
<64id5k$29v$1...@michigan.arq.net>...
> Jean P Nance (jp...@prairienet.org) wrote:
> I would also
> like to encourage all Commodore users that have used his software, to
> write to him and tell him that you have benefitted from his software and
> to encourage him. It did take the wind out of his sails, and he needs to
> know that there are people out there that appreciate his work and that he
> does have something worthwhile.
Maybe anyone reading this who pirated any of his software could send him
even a partial payment for that software. Pirates know what they are doing
hurts the creator of the product (of all software, music, movies,
etc.....). Maybe now this situation will hit home, and they will feel
compelled to pay for their use of his work.
Crafty C
rbth...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
OUCH! What a terrible thing to happen to Maurice and to Commodore users
everywhere. Once again, the actions of a few have terrible consequences
for the many.
I do, however, sympathize with Maurice and wish him no ill will for his
decision. He has indeed made sacrifices for the C= Community. The words of
the great Vulcan Spock ring out - 'the needs of the many outweigh the
needs of the one'. There comes a time when you must do what is best for
yourself and I wish Maurice all the best in the future.
--
Bruce Thomas
Edmonton, Alberta, CANADA
NAIT - '96-'98 Network Engineering Technology
I enGEOy my C-64 & LOVE my BB Writer! C-64: an original Plug & Play system.
Megcolard
Sad...
A) The dissillusioned programmer taking things really hard and getting
screwed..
& B) Idiots didn't take their registration numbers off their software.
A few GEOS'rs should pool in and buy his source and keep the updates going for
sake of good software. People are always going to copy software, but more
people are going to buy it as long as it is quality ware and has good user
support. Most people who copy really aren't going to buy the software to begin
with.
Dick
On 15 Nov 1997 06:33:03 GMT, megc...@aol.com (Megcolard) blabbered:
>A few GEOS'rs should pool in and buy his source and keep the updates going for
> sake of good software. People are always going to copy software, but more
> people are going to buy it as long as it is quality ware and has good user
> support. Most people who copy really aren't going to buy the software to begin
> with.
As a BBS operator, I have to agree with the last statement. On the
same note, most that spend the time to download a "pirated" copy of
software wouldn't buy it either.
Many BBS's offer "wares" for download...this is a carryover from the
old attitude, try before you buy. Of course, most of the software can
no longer be bought. IMHO, most of that stuff is pure crap...if it
even works. I believe that a lot of the sysops simply just hang on to
the stuff for fear that Commodore software will completely disappear
someday.
I have to defend the typical sysop since I am one. There is no way on
Earth that any of us with a real job can find the time to screen any
and all software uploaded to the BBS. However, if a piece of software
is identified that should not be on the BBS, it tends to get removed
very quickly thereafter.
I sympathize with Maurice's dilemma and attitude, but what happened
should have NO effect on his sales. All of these BBS's (including
mine) have been affected negatively by the internet revolution. Since
80% of our callers are using computers other than 64/128, it seems
highly unlikely that that particular piece of software would have been
downloaded more than once or twice. If one of those people took the
time to download it, dissolved the archive and ran the program as
their own, I would be surprised.
Just my 2.4 cents!
Todd S. Elliott
Dick wrote:
> I have to defend the typical sysop since I am one. There is no way on
> Earth that any of us with a real job can find the time to screen any
> and all software uploaded to the BBS. However, if a piece of software
> is identified that should not be on the BBS, it tends to get removed
> very quickly thereafter.
>
dramatically fallen off. Thus, it is an exceedingly easy task to screen out
recent U/D activity, especially uploads by reference to the filename, comment
area, etc. No excuse, the BBS operator should have removed it very quickly
after the file was uploaded.
> I sympathize with Maurice's dilemma and attitude, but what happened
> should have NO effect on his sales. All of these BBS's (including
> mine) have been affected negatively by the internet revolution. Since
> 80% of our callers are using computers other than 64/128, it seems
> highly unlikely that that particular piece of software would have been
> downloaded more than once or twice. If one of those people took the
> time to download it, dissolved the archive and ran the program as
> their own, I would be surprised.
>
I agree with the spirit of your comment; However, such activity does have an
impact on his sales of his software. It is the degree of such impact that is
debatable. I think we all can safely agree that in today's times, the scarcity
of new 64/128 software, such impact, however minimal, can be significant.
-Todd Elliott
hver...@coyote.accessnv.com
On 15 Nov 1997 rbth...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote:
>
> OUCH! What a terrible thing to happen to Maurice and to Commodore users
> everywhere. Once again, the actions of a few have terrible consequences
> for the many.
>
> I do, however, sympathize with Maurice and wish him no ill will for his
> decision. He has indeed made sacrifices for the C= Community. The words of
> the great Vulcan Spock ring out - 'the needs of the many outweigh the
> needs of the one'. There comes a time when you must do what is best for
> yourself and I wish Maurice all the best in the future.
Not that I promote the idea of pirating, but I could understand,
somehow, why all the pirating WAS done years ago.
But NOWADAYS????????????
I think a flea has more brains than the people that did this terrible
deed!
I guess PIRATES are a real proud group of people. They must be proud to
be killing what's left of a once HUGE Commodore community.
I hope they do it quickly and once for all! If not , then get OUT and
please don't come back.
Hey you pirates! There are nice PC's machines out there go and get'em
boys! And stay there!. :-/
Jeff Jones
Dick wrote in message <346d77db....@news.pipeline.com>...
>I have to defend the typical sysop since I am one. There is no way on
>Earth that any of us with a real job can find the time to screen any
>and all software uploaded to the BBS. However, if a piece of software
>is identified that should not be on the BBS, it tends to get removed
>very quickly thereafter.
I simply don't allow uploads. I place them on the BBS myself.
>I sympathize with Maurice's dilemma and attitude, but what happened
>should have NO effect on his sales
I agree that it wouldn't break him, but it would affect a few sales. I do
hope Maurice finds the time to finish though.
The guys at madman software were obsessed with piracy and for that reason
NEVER released Messiah. It's one thing to be hurt by piracy and another to
pre-emptively hurt yourself by avoiding all possibility.
Phil Porth
> I want to thank you all for the support you've given me. I'm not
> mad at Commodore users, they are among the nicest people I've ever
> known. Just go to any user group meeting and you will see.
>
> I'm just a little ticked off at the people involved in this
> pirating deal is all.
>
> email: arc...@delphi.com
I'd like you to know that I, and a lot of other people that have bought
your programs can totally agree with you on that. The support that you have
shown me when my modem wouldn't work was exceptional.
Programmers the calibre of Maurice are hard to come by and would be surely
missed by the whole Commodore community. I for one bought GeoFax when it
first came out as it gave one giant shove to the Commodore's stance in the
computer community as the little machine that could still do the stuff that
the BIG BOYS could do. The promise of Project G, the WAVE and others have
kept us eagerly waiting for more of the same. If he wants committed orders
for his Geos update I'll eagerly stand in line with my dollars ready. I
only had to wait 6 months for my first CMD Ramdrive. We already know that
the machine can do it with the "right" programmer behind the keys.
Phil Porth (aka Phone Man)
If you're looking for someone with a LITTLE AUTHORITY, then you've come to the
right person. I have as little authority as anybody else here.
from the Land of the frozen NORTH, Calgary Alberta
Home of the Calgary Stampede and the Calgary Commodore Users Group
Thanks to those who continue to abuse the INTERNET, Most of my mail now is
unwanted JUNK MAIL.
Christian Janoff
mi...@smartt.com (Norman Yen) wrote:
#>
#>It's a shame that this fellow gave into the pirates.
#>
#>Everything I have written for any CPU I have done so as freeware. The
#>fact that I could write a piece of software someone actually uses and
#>get some email in return was a big enough reward for me. The fact
#>that he has sold 500 copies is quite an achievement! I think Maurice
#>should of taken into consideration that his program would eventually
#>be copied and distributed by pirates as this sort of thing goes on
#>whether you're using a Mac, PC, Amiga, C64 or even a video game
#>system. What made him think that his program would of been any kind
#>of exception? The fact that it's an 8-bit system doesn't mean it was
#>safe nor does the fact that it is for an older computer system. Home
#>video game ROMs and arcade ROMs are being pirated rampantly these
#>days.
#>
#>That's just my opinion. I'm sure he'll be happy being a mechanic.
I fully agree! I always hear people telling that programmers are good
and crackers are evil. Sure they are! ;-) And I don't want to justify
the crackers. But they exist, both. This is the world we are living in,
get real!
Well, Maurice sold 500 pieces of his software and he should be happy
about it. And I'm sure he'll sell some more. If he wants MORE MONEY, then
he maybe should spend more time repairing cars!
Sorry, for this rather 'negative' comment but I got tired of reading
over 100 lines of the kind 'I'm Maurice Randall and I'm such a poor boy!'
Christian.
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Blazè Mofondo
Christian Janoff <me...@ultra11.rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote in
article <64p5ep$csj$1...@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>...
> the crackers. But they exist, both. This is the world we are living in,
> get real!
>
> Well, Maurice sold 500 pieces of his software and he should be happy
> about it. And I'm sure he'll sell some more. If he wants MORE MONEY, then
> he maybe should spend more time repairing cars!
>
> Sorry, for this rather 'negative' comment but I got tired of reading
> over 100 lines of the kind 'I'm Maurice Randall and I'm such a poor
boy!'
>
> Christian.
Please give me a huge break!!!! Can you say the words, "Kick him when he's
down"?
Telling programmers getting their work stolen is "just the way it is in
this world we are living in, so get used to it" is ludicrous! How many of
us would say that about other work we do? "Oh all those oak cabinets I
made just got stolen. Oh well. That's just the way it is in the world we
are living in. I guess I'll just have to deal with it."
Simply because "that is the way it is" does not mean that that is the way
it SHOULD be. Therefore we SHOULD feel ripped-off.
Instead of the general attitude being, "Oh well. Its gonna happen anyway."
our attitude should be "It is totally unacceptable that this happens, and I
am going to tell friends who do it NOT to do it." We all have friends
who've done it. Maybe it wouldn't seem like it did any good, but at least
our friend would feel the affects of doing something wrong.
Piracy has gotten so out of control because most of us just look the other
way when it happens.
The end.
Let the flames begin!!!!!!!!
Blazè
Blazè Mofondo
Marko Mäkelä <Marko....@HUT.FI> wrote in article
Making copies of intellectual property
> costs almost nothing, and I wouldn't call copying stealing, because
> the original does not disappear.
Granted. BUT if we state that IF a person does work for the sole purpose of
getting paid for it, and then someone else benefits from that work WITHOUT
paying that person for it, then they have "stolen" that persons work.
IF a person does work not for the purpose of getting paid for it, then that
persons work cannot be stolen because it is not being sold.....
Basically, all of the hard work that Maurice put into the coding was not
recompensed.
Blaze
Marko Mäkelä
>>>>> "Robin" == Robin Harbron <mac...@tbaytel.net> writes:
Robin> Ah, but the fact is - our "obsolescent" computer platform is
Robin> supported by computer companies! Besides, "obsolete", in my
Robin> dictionary, means "no longer used". This is obviously not
Robin> true!
I knew that someone would pick on the word I choose, so I very
carefully chose "obsolescent", which means "becoming obsolete". You
cannot deny that today's computers will become obsolete after enough
time has elapsed, be it 1, 10, 100 or 1000 years. But neither can I
prove it. :-)
*: nndoc+gnus-help:gnus-help
>> Should the authors of these programs restrict the use of these
>> utilities? I don't think so. And being the author of some
>> crossplatform tools, I don't think either that the authors should
>> expect any payment from the users. Fiddling with the Commodores
>> should be fun, not something that you do for a living.
Robin> It also occurs to me that people should be able to have fun
Robin> _and_ earn a living at the same time - you don't allow for that
Robin> with your judgement of what's right.
Did I write that users should be strictly forbidden to send any money
to the authors? There are companies and organizations that offer
software under the conditions of the GNU General Public License (which
basically means that anyone is allowed to copy and use the software
freely, and nobody may put restrictions on the piece of software or
its derivatives). These companies charge a fee for distributing
copies of the software, and they may also ask for donations. But they
cannot deny anyone from sharing the software with others. Examples of
such companies (or trademarks) and organizations include Slackware,
Red Hat, Cygnus, Debian and FSF. These companies are doing well, and
they have employees who get paid for the work. So, you don't need to
restrict the distribution of software in order to make a living from
it.
I don't know how many GEOS coders there are around, but it might well
be that an open software development model would work there better.
When several people are working on a problem, it is likely to be
solved faster.
--
Marko Mäkelä <Marko....@HUT.FI>, http://www.hut.fi/home/msmakela/
Helsinki University of Technology, dept. of Computer Science
Cameron Kaiser
Robin Harbron <mac...@tbaytel.net> writes:
>Ah, but the fact is - our "obsolescent" computer platform is
>supported by computer companies! Besides, "obsolete", in my
>dictionary, means "no longer used". This is obviously not
>true!
Right!
>I program almost exclusively on my C=3D machine - some of my
>work gets distributed as freeware (demos and my new utility
>-programming the Atari 2600 with the C64 - just a little
>plug there ;) - but I've also been paid for some programs
>and other work of mine. It has value, at least to some -
>and to those who don't find it valuable enough to pay for,
>they shouldn't have it.
Man, Robin, I couldn't have said it better myself. :-) Bodes well
for future projects in this office.
Just another 8-bit hacker,
Jason
Christian Janoff:
> Well, Maurice sold 500 pieces of his software and he should be happy
> about it. And I'm sure he'll sell some more. If he wants MORE MONEY, then
> he maybe should spend more time repairing cars!
> Sorry, for this rather 'negative' comment but I got tired of reading
> over 100 lines of the kind 'I'm Maurice Randall and I'm such a poor
> boy!'
Blaz Mofondo:
> Please give me a huge break!!!! Can you say the words, "Kick him when he's
> down"?
> Telling programmers getting their work stolen is "just the way it is in
> this world we are living in, so get used to it" is ludicrous! How many of
> us would say that about other work we do? "Oh all those oak cabinets I
> made just got stolen. Oh well. That's just the way it is in the world we
> are living in. I guess I'll just have to deal with it."
It's not as simple as that though, *is* it? An oak cabinet is an artefact,
you make it, you *have* it and if it gets stolen you don't. Software is
different, the pirates aren't physically stealing the program, they're
*duplicating* it. Yes, it's still illegal and no, I'm not justifying it
but at the end of the day the original disk is still *there* to sell, or
more accurately, has already been *sold*.
For your analogy to work you'd still have an oak cabinet but someone else
would have an *exact* copy they made themselves based on your design. Are
you going to begrudge them that because they had the skill to copy what
you made?
> Instead of the general attitude being, "Oh well. Its gonna happen anyway."
> our attitude should be "It is totally unacceptable that this happens, and I
> am going to tell friends who do it NOT to do it." We all have friends
> who've done it. Maybe it wouldn't seem like it did any good, but at least
> our friend would feel the affects of doing something wrong.
Piracy serves two purposes to the software industry.
Firstly it's a "bad guy" figure to point at, someone to blame for this,
that and the other and it's a reason to hike the prices of software with
the "if these naughty people didn't copy our software we wouldn't have to
put the price up" arguement. This is garbage, after all it would make the
Playstation and N64 the two most pirated machines on the market, since
their games are the highest priced.
Secondly it's a free promotion. People who copy software are either not
going to buy the thing *anyway* (most pirates have vast disk collections
of software they never use or intend to use) or they may be considering
it and want a "test drive" first. Again, this is one of those unique
situations involving software, if you want a car you get a test drive,
if you want a TV set, furniture or computer you can go to a showroom and
clothes and music all have places you can see the article and feel the
material.
But software is different, you have to either rely on recommendations or
take a risk. Or get a shonky copy, see if it does what you want and maybe
buy the thing. Crippleware demos don't work either, how many times have
you gone to buy a car and been told "you can have this one for free, but
the petrol tank only holds enough to give you half an hours driving and
you have to pay us to upgrade it to a decent capacity"?
> Piracy has gotten so out of control because most of us just look the other
> way when it happens.
Including software houses. Microsoft know that Windoze '95 is probably
one of the most pirated pieces of software on the face of the planet right
now but they don't *care* that much (as long as it's "home" piracy and
not a company making money from their product) because they more than make
up for it from sales of the extended products, Plus, Encarta and so forth
that people buy because they know the M$ name from their shonky copy of
Doze.
Fact is that there will always be pirates, it's something *any* software
developer has to live with or even try to use to their advantage. I'm
sad to see Maurice leave the C64, I've never used his products, never even
*seen* them (I don't use GEOS) but I do find it sad that another coder has
left the machine. But the way he did it seems to read something along the
lines of "you didn't give me enough money, so I'm taking my ball and going".
--
Jason =-)
_______________________________________________________________________
TMR / / / / / / / /\
/ /__/ / / /__/ / / / /__/ Email: t...@cosine.demon.co.uk / /
/ /\_/ / /__ / / / / __// Cosine Homepage: / /
/ /__/ / / / / / / / / / http://www.cosine.demon.co.uk / /
/_____/_____/_____/__/__/__/_____/_____________________________________/ /
\_____\_____\_____\__\__\__\_____\_____________________________________\/
Ginny Fanello
Okay..
Now I am outraged..
Maurice:
You point fingers at the bbs that recieved the unsoliceted files, and
protect the person that passed out your software. We do not demand,
request, or plead for any files on the bbs. The files that you are
talking about were not uploaded with the proper name so it wasn't
something that would be noticed.
To the rest of you:
Nature Reserve is up to provide Commodore Support to a lot of active
bbs'. It is not, nor ever has been a "pirate" bbs. Shutting any
Commodore BBS down because the sysop doesn't spend time trying out every
piece of software that somebody uploads is ridiculous.
I get the impression, Maurice, that you feel the files were sent over
our network, they weren't. Adam did, however, post the information about
the bogus file name to everyone in our network just as he told you he
would do.
Just as you had to make decisions about what you would or would not 'get
to', so has Adam. He has devoted countless hours to the creation of
programs for Commodore. At the same time, he works and goes to college.
There is only so much time in a day. What should he stop doing in order
to watch what is uploaded?
Quit work? Nah.. he can't afford to pay his bills then.
Quit school? hmmmmmmm kinda short sighted suggestion..
Quit helping other sysops with their operating problems?? Dick, John,
Mike, the rest of you that ask him for help, what do you think? I know
you all hold back (with gnashing teeth) when I mention finals, but
forever??
I know, the next Centipede update.. lets put that off for a few
months...
Am I being sarcastic?? YEPPERS.. some of you need a reality check. Now
I understand Maurice being upset, I just don't like the idea that he is
pointing fingers at us nasty bbs owners. That finger should be pointing
at your friend and customer that you are protecting.
As for the rest of you, realize this.. most of us in the bbs genre are
running our commodore boards because we LIKE our Commodores, not for any
software that we may collect on em.. (we don't even save that stuff to a
floppy disk) In fact, I can't even remember the last time that either
one of us wrestled enough of our equipment off the bbs to even play an
old favorite game on our 128's.
I suppose we could delete the entire geos directory..yeah.. we can toss
all the freeware and shareware that even hints that geos exists.
Most of you don't know me, however, I have been reading this usegroup
for quite some time. I just haven't responded much to the messages that
I have been reading. You know those messages requesting copies of
software .. Commodore game software... I really don't remember a lot of
people pointing out copywrite improprieties when they encounter these
requests... I do remember a lot of, oh yeah.. I have that and can send
it along.
Before you tell us to shut down (not that we would listen) consider
trying to do what we are doing. Set aside equipment and phone lines for
others to use, free of charge. Consider hours upon hours spent keeping
this equipment running so others can see that Commodore is still alive
and doing more then CBM ever thought it could do.. Consider finding the
bbs off line in the middle of the night and taking the time to get it
back up just in case some of those few users decide to call before you
wake up.. Then multiply that by the demands at Adam's BBS.. 2 lines, a
network hub, and in constant beta test mode.
Before you judge us by what you think we SHOULD do, consider what we DO
DO.. and then try to walk in our shoes before you tell us how to spend
our time and efforts.
Maurice... I won't apologize because we are human and not perfect and
therefore didn't notice that your work, renamed, was luking in our ud.
Like you said, Adam did apologize and he did remove the files. I could
understand your retailation if he did not comply with your request, but
since he did... you were out of line.
xy3...@epix.net wrote:
> Hi all,
> I recently saw this on the Buliten Board on Genie's Commodore
> Roundtable and I thought that others might find this of interest. The
> only thing that I have edited is Maurice's phone number as I don't
> know if would want that posted all over the internet.
> I did feel a little better after reding this, but I am still outraged
> that the uploading of Geofax happened in the first place!
>
> So, without further adue, here is Maurice's post:
>
> ------------
> Category 6, Topic 44
> Message 224 Sat Nov 15, 1997
> M.RANDALL2 [Maurice] at 17:59 EST
>
> I just want to reply to everyone that's left a response here.
>
> I want to thank you all for the support you've given me. I'm not
> mad at Commodore users, they are among the nicest people I've ever
> known. Just go to any user group meeting and you will see.
>
> I'm just a little ticked off at the people involved in this
> pirating deal is all.
>
> Releasing the name of the individual who purchased GF-1295A over
> in Germany isn't possible since he/she never sent the registration
> in. The disk was bought from the GEOS Users Club in Germany. I
> haven't contacted them yet to find out if they have a record
> of who they sold it to.
>
> But GF-1035A was bought directly from me and this person also
> sent his registration in. I sent him a certified letter a few
> days ago and am waiting for his reply and a very good
> explanation.
>
> Now, the BBS in question is another matter. I've heard remarks
> that a BBS operator can't possibly keep track of every file that
> gets uploaded and the sysop of this particular BBS said the same
> thing. But that's baloney. If you're going to run a BBS, you
> have to manage your files. It's part of the job. If you can't do
> that, then you better shut it down.
>
> What's really disappointing is that this particular sysop should
> know better. It's the Nature Reserve BBS in Cypress, California
> at 714-828-7296. This BBS is the headquarters for the 128
> version of Color 64 and also the new Centipede BBS software.
> The sysop is Adam Fanello, the author of Centipede.
>
> He apoligized for having geoFAX on his BBS and has since removed
> it, although I haven't verified this yet. He also stated he would
> remove GEOS 2.0. I told him that he should remove every other
> piece of pirated software too. Since his BBS is the hub for a
> series of BBSs that are networked together, I asked that he post
> a message to all the other BBSs to remove any and all copies of
> these software packages from their own BBSs as well as geoSHELL
> if it exists on any of the BBSs.
>
> Maybe some of you can investigate all the BBSs in the chain and
> verify that none of the software is online. If any is found, I'd
> like to know about it.
>
> I'll be on Genie for about another week or so, so if anybody has
> anything they need help with that I'm capable of handling, just
> fire the questions away. After that I can be reached at any of
> the following:
>
> Maurice Randall
> P.O. Box 606
> Charlotte MI 48813
>
> email: arc...@delphi.com
>
> My web site is at:
> http://people.delphi.com/arca93
>
> My BBS is:
> The Speed Zone BBS at 517-322-2386
>
> If it makes any difference, I've decided to keep working on
> Project G (64 version) until it's finished. After that I'll have
> to see how things are going.
>
> -Maurice
>
> ----------------End of post---------------------
>
> Dan Barber
> xy3...@epix.net
hver...@coyote.accessnv.com
On 17 Nov 1997, Marko M=E4kel=E4 wrote:
> I don't know how many GEOS coders there are around, but it might well
> be that an open software development model would work there better.
> When several people are working on a problem, it is likely to be
> solved faster.
You mean like CS-DOS? As far as I know there was a post from JB,
stating that, even though the rights to it remained with him, *anyone*
could fiddle with the programs and release it to the Public Domain, as
long as no fee was asked. What's more, if a fee was to be set for
whatever software made under CS-DOS then, he (JB) wanted a small
percentage.
I don't know what happened with that, but I don't a lot of 'new'
software that runs under CS-DOS.
Respectfully
Hernan Vergara
Ruth Hackley
I'd like to put my two cents worth in. Programmers that do a very
sophisticated program and keep updating it certainly deserve better than
"e-mail" or even a few hundred copies sold! Before I met Ron Hackley I was
aware of his intensive efforts - he worked every spare minute, day and
night, to put out a VERY good program. It sold for $15.00 a copy when it
first came out - less than a carton of cigarettes!
Christian Janoff <me...@ultra11.rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote in
article <64p5ep$csj$1...@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>...
> mi...@smartt.com (Norman Yen) wrote:
> #>
> #>It's a shame that this fellow gave into the pirates.
> #>
> #>Everything I have written for any CPU I have done so as freeware. The
> #>fact that I could write a piece of software someone actually uses and
> #>get some email in return was a big enough reward for me. The fact
> #>that he has sold 500 copies is quite an achievement! I think Maurice
> #>should of taken into consideration that his program would eventually
> #>be copied and distributed by pirates as this sort of thing goes on
> #>whether you're using a Mac, PC, Amiga, C64 or even a video game
> #>system. What made him think that his program would of been any kind
> #>of exception? The fact that it's an 8-bit system doesn't mean it was
> #>safe nor does the fact that it is for an older computer system. Home
> #>video game ROMs and arcade ROMs are being pirated rampantly these
> #>days.
> #>
> #>That's just my opinion. I'm sure he'll be happy being a mechanic.
>
> I fully agree! I always hear people telling that programmers are good
> and crackers are evil. Sure they are! ;-) And I don't want to justify
> the crackers. But they exist, both. This is the world we are living in,
> get real!
>
> Well, Maurice sold 500 pieces of his software and he should be happy
> about it. And I'm sure he'll sell some more. If he wants MORE MONEY, then
> he maybe should spend more time repairing cars!
>
> Sorry, for this rather 'negative' comment but I got tired of reading
> over 100 lines of the kind 'I'm Maurice Randall and I'm such a poor
boy!'
>
> Christian.
>
o===========================================================================
Todd S. Elliott
Ginny Fanello wrote:
> Nature Reserve is up to provide Commodore Support to a lot of active
> bbs'. It is not, nor ever has been a "pirate" bbs. Shutting any
> Commodore BBS down because the sysop doesn't spend time trying out every
> piece of software that somebody uploads is ridiculous.
>
Before I begin, I wish to preface this reply that I have already read Dick
Cunningham's reply to my query on how a BBS operator spends his/her time on
his/her BBS.
I still think it is somewhat unpersuasive for the common BBS operator;
Obviously, you and Dick do not fit this category; You continually develop
Centipede 128, a BBS program, as well as being a hub for other BBS for network
purposes, etc. Dick only spends a few days in a month where he spends 99% of
his time with his family, and thus, is largely unable to monitor his BBS.
So, it would seem unreasonable for you or similar BBS operator to scan every
single file, etc. for any copyright or piracy violations.
Yet, I still have a problem; I find it hard to believe that the average C=BBS
would have significant UPLOAD activity. Why uploads? Many BBS's ususally have
large file libraries making uploads largely unnecessary. It is when a new file
previously unknown, i.e., an actual new program produced by a current
programmer, that is a suitable candidate for an upload to a BBS, etc.
I am painfully aware that there are not a lot of new software being produced
nowadays for the CBM 8-bit line. Therefore, there should have been a very
minimal upload activity. Even the Internet is horning into this area, i.e.,
dominating the software upload/download scene. If I am to believe SMS Mike,
his BBS has experienced a dramatic falloff of u/d activity for the past few
years.
In a nutshell, there are not a lot of uploads occurring for an average
Commodore BBS operation; It is easier today than it would have been in late
1980's to monitor new uploads and take corrective action whenever necessary. I
think this is one of the fundamental responsbilities of a BBS operator. Mind
you, I am not asking each Commodore BBS operator to dive into his/her HD, etc.
and weed out files, etc. Not only it is time-consuming, it largely
accomplishes nothing, as it would only eliminate files that are no longer
supported by current programmers, etc.
I think this responsibility should be no less for those BBS operations of
which are obviously experiencing higher periods of activity such as the
Centipede BBS HQ. I do agree with your premise that your BBS has never
solicited such software for uploads, and do believe that you rarely tinker
with the uploaded software already in your BBS. I have a 85 MB CMD HD, and I
probably only have actually used 15-20 percent of the files in its lifetime.
(BTW, it's full) :(
But, operating a BBS, especially in the 1990's, requires such a small modicum
of responsibility to ensure that such software does not find a place. This
way, while supporting your hobby by running a Commodore BBS, you also extend
the life of your machines by supporting those few programmers left who
continue to program for the c64/128.
Well, hope it made sense... :) Enough rambling.
Thanks for listening,
-Todd Elliott
Marko Mäkelä
>>>>> "Hernan" == <hver...@coyote.accessnv.com> writes:
Hernan> On 17 Nov 1997, Marko Mäkelä wrote:
>> I don't know how many GEOS coders there are around, but it might
>> well be that an open software development model would work there
>> better. When several people are working on a problem, it is likely
>> to be solved faster.
Hernan> You mean like CS-DOS?
I haven't seen the source code of CS-DOS anywhere, and as you said, JB
put restrictions on the use of CS-DOS. I remember reading that you
would have to sign a non-disclosure agreement in order to get the
source code. I wouldn't call that open software development, and it
does not surprise me that no 3rd party software for CS-DOS has become
available.
Andreas Varga
On 18 Nov 1997, Marko [ISO-8859-1] M=E4kel=E4 wrote:
> >>>>> "Hernan" =3D=3D <hver...@coyote.accessnv.com> writes:
>=20
> Hernan> On 17 Nov 1997, Marko M=E4kel=E4 wrote:
>=20
> >> I don't know how many GEOS coders there are around, but it might
> >> well be that an open software development model would work there
> >> better. When several people are working on a problem, it is likely
> >> to be solved faster.
>=20
> Hernan> You mean like CS-DOS?
>=20
> I haven't seen the source code of CS-DOS anywhere, and as you said, JB
> put restrictions on the use of CS-DOS. I remember reading that you
> would have to sign a non-disclosure agreement in order to get the
> source code. I wouldn't call that open software development, and it
> does not surprise me that no 3rd party software for CS-DOS has become
> available.
That's not the main reason... GEOS already has some great applications,
and the chances of success are higher for GEOS than any other alternative
CBM operating system...
Simply put, programming for GEOS is fun...
Cheers,
Andreas
Adam Fanello
To contest one person's statement, and then ramble on a bit:
Several receint U.S. coart decisions have indicated that survice providers
cannot be held responcible for the actions of its members. It would be an
unreasonable burdon upon service providers to police the activities of all
of its users. Of course, BBSs are different. Unlike service providers that
collect subscription fees from members, BBS SysOps make nothing. Quite the
contrary, they pay out hundreds to thousands of dollars out of their own
pockets to put their computers into the service of complete strangers.
Obviously, unlike those huge profit making corporations, SysOps have the
resources to to spend checking every file that some person from anywhere
in the world chooses to upload. If even the software is written for an
operating system (Geos, Mac, Amiga, etc) that the SysOp doesn't even own
or use, these people have the responcibility to use their magic to test
every program anyway.
Of course, none of this is really necessary because pirates are so
forthright. They always provide accurate application information, and name
their files clearly with names such as "pirated geofax" and "commercial
Geos" because they are just that helpful. In the event that a cryptic
name, such as "faxs1.lnx" must be used, the uploading pirate attaches a
file description clearing stating that the file contains a cracked copy of
a commercial program. They do this, because they are such ethical people.
-Sarcasm off-
The simple fact is that any software worth using will be be pirated. Fair?
No. Does it happen though? Yes. I know for sure of one person who pirated
my previous BBS program, and am told of another. I'm sure there are many
other instances that I do not know about. In the case where I know who
pirated it, I revoked his ownership rights (tech support and updates),
asked other SysOps not to support him, and moved on.
Maurice is taking things so hard, because he was under the misconception
that one can actually make a living off of writing Commodore software.
Maurice, the reason that your sales have dropped off is because that is
the life-cycle of a software product. Dispite adding new features to my
previous BBS software, V128, constantly; each year I sold fewer copies.
New titles sell.
The uploader of GeoFAX to my BBS was a one-time caller. He got an account,
uploaded GeoFAX only (I know this because I did a scan for his handle in
the file descriptions), and that was it. He called, probably LD, to upload
an unsolicited file to some BBS, and moved on. My guess is that he was
angry for some reason and was trying to seek revenge. Maurice knows who
the owner of that copy is. He told me the person's name, but I will not
pass it on if Maurice chooses not to. It's his product. Apparently he, and
several others, are not interested in finding the pirate, only a scapgoat.
That has become me.
Enjoy your witch hunt, I have an exam to study for now.
arc...@delphi.com
To everyone,
Here's the scoop now on the GF-1035A copy of geoFAX that
was pirated. The original owner of this software called me
today in response to the certified letter that I sent to
him. He stated that about a year ago, he decided to go with
just the Amiga platform and sold his Commodore stuff. He
advertised it locally in Oregon, and an individual came down
from the Portland area and bought everything for $250. He
said that his copy of geoFAX was included in the deal.
Since that, he got his free geoFAX 2.0 upgrade from me. He
is now sending that back to me since he no longer owns the
right to the use of the software. He doesn't know who this
individual is that bought his system, it was a cash deal.
So, as far as I'm concerned, this case is closed. If anybody
should be in trouble, it's the person that did the actual upload.
We may never know who that is since Adam no longer has a record
of this person. Maybe this individual is out there following
this thread. Whatever the case may be, he has lost any right
to the legal use of geoFAX.
I do admit, this deal really drew a lot of attention everywhere.
Sorry if I offended anybody, but I'm surprised at how little
flaming there was. For the most part, everyone seems to agree
that is was totally wrong to upload the software and also
not really right to allow the software to remain uploaded. But
it's over and done with.
And life goes on.
Thanks to everyone, this has actually been fun.
-Maurice
arc...@delphi.com
Hi Ginny,
I was wondering when a female name with a last name of
Fanello would show up here. :)
Sorry about all the commotion, but you have to admit that
Adam has gotten some considerable exposure out of all this.
Let me just say that I don't intend to pursue this to any
great extent, such as with any legal action. And I'm also
not protecting my customer that bought the original copy
of geoFAX in question. The only reason I'm holding out on
releasing his name is because I'm giving him reasonable time
to respond to my certified letter with some sort of explanation
on how his copy of geoFAX eventually got uploaded to Adam's
BBS. If I don't get a response by this Friday, I'll let
everybody know who he is. It's possible he sold his system
along with all his software to someone else. He can tell
me who he sold it to.
On the subject of not having enough time to monitor your
BBS, I can understand Adam's problem there. He most likely
spends a great deal of time programming. I can understand
that, for sure. We need to keep Adam doing what he's doing.
But to make a quick check on a program that's uploaded
before making it available for downloading shouldn't be
much of a chore. On my BBS, there is a program that was
uploaded a couple weeks ago. Nobody can download it until
I throw the switch. So far, I've got no idea if this particular
program is commercial or not since the docs are in German.
Until I learn more about the program, nobody can download it.
I can see where a BBS operator might complain about not
having time to go through several thousand files that are
'already' uploaded and check them all out. It would be
a near impossible task. They should have been checked
when they were first uploaded, though. The BBS should
have a switch just like mine has to prevent a file from
being downloaded until it is checked out. It's the BBS's
responsibility to check these files. The people who
download them aren't the ones responsible for checking
the files and the ones doing the uploading are the real
culprits.
Ginny, imagine if Adam was a drug store operator and
he just didn't have the time to keep track of which drugs
were prescription only and which were over the counter.
Is it right to put the prescription drugs out where anyone
can pick them up? Same analogy. You've got to control the
service you're providing, even if it's a free service.
Don't think about closing the BBS down, that's not my
intention at all. I think I accomplished what I set out to
do. I would guess there are fewer people that would consider
pirating geoFAX now than there were a few weeks ago. AndI
would also guess that there are some BBS operators that
are being a little more cautious about the files they ahve
on their BBS.
Don't worry, I'm not sore at Adam at all, nor at you,
Ginny. Adam was very good about getting rid of geoFAX when
I asked him. And bringing this out in the open was good
for everyone. And hopefully it will scare the pirates al
little bit. If you really want to know who bought the
famous GF-1035A copy of geoFAX, it's Michael Weathers of
Coos Bay, Oregon. But like I say, I don't think it was
him that uploaded the program. However, he most likely
gave a copy of it to a friend at one point in time and it
probably got passed around to someone else and so on. And
eventually it ended up on Adam's BBS. All from a casual
bit of sharing a program with a friend.
Ginny, guess who doesn't know about all this stuff yet?
My own wife, Brenda. I haven't told her that geoFAX has
been pirated and uploaded to a BBS yet. She wouldn't like
that very much. I can imagine what Adam is going through
at home right now. Lighten up and make him feel better
about it. If I were to meet Adam in person, I would
treat him like any other Commodore supporter, in a very
friendly manner. He's not my enemy and never will be.
Between Adam and I, maybe the 64 and 128 will live a little
while longer because of this deal.
-Maurice
Kenneth
Oh it was really fun???
Bad mouthing a Wonderful Sysop that is trying to help keep the Commodore
Scene alive isnt my type of Fun!!!
I think you owe Adam a Big Appology...
--
Kenneth Nealey - AKA - Megga Force
Ultimate Force BBS - (415) 441 - 1120 (300 - 19.2K bps)
Kenneth
Well, Maurice called my Commodore BBS today as a NEW Member....
Wonder what he might be looking for?? another board to upload some of
his Copyrighted Software to??? Who knows..... Will he find any on my
Board.....
Will he gain access to ALL of the transfer Sections?????
What about all these CBM Emulators for the IBM.. and all those Commodore
games that you can play... Are they Copy righted too???
This guy needs to get a life....
Todd S. Elliott
Kenneth wrote:
>
> Oh it was really fun???
> Bad mouthing a Wonderful Sysop that is trying to help keep the Commodore
> Scene alive isnt my type of Fun!!!
>
> I think you owe Adam a Big Appology...
>
But, Adam Fanello could have been a little bit more responsible with respect
to maintenance of his BBS. I do agree that he has done remarkable work with
his Centipede BBS, and that his efforts will definitely help keep the
Commodore scene alive.
The same goes to other BBS's, such as yours, from what I can tell of your .sig
file. A little bit of responsbility on your part, as well as hundreds of other
CBM BBS sysops, this kind of upload will rarely occur, if ever, again in the
future. This preserves the Commodore scene well into the millennium, as it
encourages other programmers to continue programming their works for the
c64/128 and keep their confidence in the CBM BBS system (and of course, the
Internet CBM sites) not to distribute their work illegally.
After all, there will always be misguided people who choose to upload cutting
edge and current software. If there is *no market* for them, it is an
effective protection as if the original programmer had put in the best disk
head-banging protection scheme backed up with a dongle in the original
program. Of course, I would prefer a 'self-policing' system of copyright
protection of current CBM software produced and supported by current CBM
programmers than the archaic methods of dongle and disk-based copy-protection.
:)
-Todd Elliott
Todd S. Elliott
Adam Fanello wrote:
> Of course, none of this is really necessary because pirates are so
> forthright. They always provide accurate application information, and name
> their files clearly with names such as "pirated geofax" and "commercial
> Geos" because they are just that helpful. In the event that a cryptic
> name, such as "faxs1.lnx" must be used, the uploading pirate attaches a
> file description clearing stating that the file contains a cracked copy of
> a commercial program. They do this, because they are such ethical people.
>
> -Sarcasm off-
While being sarcastic there, you can do something. Just delete those
questionable files. This sends a clear message to uploaders that filenames
must be descriptive and they must carry descriptions. I agree that it is
time-consuming and unworkable to unarchive each uploaded file, determine its
contents, etc. before making it available for download. It is much easier from
a BBS operator standpoint to look at the filename and accompanying
descriptions before certifying them for availability for downloading from
their BBS, and weed out questionable ones, even deleting them off.
As a bonus, all members of your BBS will benefit from clear descriptive
filenames and read the descriptions, enabling them to make informed choices
about downloading whatever software they need from your BBS. I do need that
sometimes. :)
-Todd Elliott
hver...@coyote.accessnv.com
On 18 Nov 1997, Marko M=E4kel=E4 wrote:
> >>>>> "Hernan" =3D=3D <hver...@coyote.accessnv.com> writes:
>=20
> Hernan> On 17 Nov 1997, Marko M=E4kel=E4 wrote:
>=20
> >> I don't know how many GEOS coders there are around, but it might
> >> well be that an open software development model would work there
> >> better. When several people are working on a problem, it is likely
> >> to be solved faster.
>=20
> Hernan> You mean like CS-DOS?
>=20
> I haven't seen the source code of CS-DOS anywhere, and as you said, JB
> put restrictions on the use of CS-DOS. I remember reading that you
> would have to sign a non-disclosure agreement in order to get the
> source code. I wouldn't call that open software development, and it
> does not surprise me that no 3rd party software for CS-DOS has become
> available.
> --=20
hmmm source code uh? Is that what you need for software developement
under an OS, such as GEOS or CS-DOS?
I'm asking because I don't really know. I understand that the source
code would be nice to have, but both enviroments can certainly be used
to develope software. That's the way I "read" your post anyway.
Respectfully
Hernan Vergara
hver...@coyote.accessnv.com
On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 arc...@delphi.com wrote:
> I do admit, this deal really drew a lot of attention everywhere.
> Sorry if I offended anybody, but I'm surprised at how little
> flaming there was. For the most part, everyone seems to agree
> that is was totally wrong to upload the software and also
> not really right to allow the software to remain uploaded. But
> it's over and done with.
>
> And life goes on.
>
> Thanks to everyone, this has actually been fun.
>
> -Maurice
Glad to see that it is solved on your side.
Now, I want my GEOS3.0 128! :->
Glad to see you back.
Hernan Vergara
John Schwab
-> I agree that it wouldn't break him, but it would affect a few sales. I do
-> hope Maurice finds the time to finish though.
-> The guys at madman software were obsessed with piracy and for that reason
-> NEVER released Messiah. It's one thing to be hurt by piracy and another to
-> pre-emptively hurt yourself by avoiding all possibility.
There is certain ways of stopping piracy. Creating registration codes
that require them calling to get the codes to be registered.
Ruth Hackley
A BBS operator can protect him/her self from illegal uploads by requiring
that material uploaded be passed as "OK" by the sysop or an assistant. It
requires only a few minutes and saves a lot of trouble.
Adam Fanello <a...@ecs.fullerton.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.GSO.3.95.971118150528.12993B-100000@titan>...
> To contest one person's statement, and then ramble on a bit:
>
> Several receint U.S. coart decisions have indicated that survice
providers
> cannot be held responcible for the actions of its members. It would be an
> unreasonable burdon upon service providers to police the activities of
all
> of its users. Of course, BBSs are different. Unlike service providers
that
> collect subscription fees from members, BBS SysOps make nothing. Quite
the
> contrary, they pay out hundreds to thousands of dollars out of their own
> pockets to put their computers into the service of complete strangers.
> Obviously, unlike those huge profit making corporations, SysOps have the
> resources to to spend checking every file that some person from anywhere
> in the world chooses to upload. If even the software is written for an
> operating system (Geos, Mac, Amiga, etc) that the SysOp doesn't even own
> or use, these people have the responcibility to use their magic to test
> every program anyway.
>
> Of course, none of this is really necessary because pirates are so
> forthright. They always provide accurate application information, and
name
> their files clearly with names such as "pirated geofax" and "commercial
> Geos" because they are just that helpful. In the event that a cryptic
> name, such as "faxs1.lnx" must be used, the uploading pirate attaches a
> file description clearing stating that the file contains a cracked copy
of
> a commercial program. They do this, because they are such ethical people.
>
> -Sarcasm off-
>
Iceman
Geez! Maybe I should actually come here and read this
newsgroup a little more often. I've seen alot of things
posted in here in hast, with some finger pointing and alot
of idea's of who is at fault. I've seen a SysOp that I
introduced to the telecommunications scene years ago roasted
by those who haven't a clue, and a few who feel that they
do. I personally have been running a board since the days
of ebbs and All American BBS programs were popular, and I
can tell you that there just is not a way to sit down and
test every program that is or has been uploaded to a good
sized system. Yea sure, some of the small time SysOps with
20 to 100 meg hard drives might be able to control with
some effectiveness what is in the public U/D bases, and
alot of SysOps TRY, especially those of us who are DIE HARD
Commodore Fans.
Maurice, I feel as some others have posted on here that
you owe Adam an apology. I've known him from since he
was a first time user with a 300 baud modem, and he has
never been into the pirate scene, and I suspect that the
only reason he has a U/D at all on his board is to try and
help fellow Commodore users get non-copyrighted public
domain software that is legitimate. He, like yourself is
one of the talented programmers that we all need to
support.
Ohh yea, call my board and look for any currently
supported protected software, I do try to look out for
those that support the Commodore by using common sence
with the filenames. But I almost never download and
unzip the files myself to see whats in them. If a user
or programmer like yourself reports that it is bad or
a copyrighted piece, I remove it. So please feel free
to call me, its The Inner Circle @ 304-697-0101 with
4.2 gigabytes currently online. You search thru all
4+ gigs and report back to me if you find anything that
shouldn't be there k?
One final thing, yes I feel that Maurice has a right
to complain and be upset that GeoFax was copied and
uploaded somewhere. I feel for ya man, but I also
disagree with the way you have handled the situation.
John Pinson, Iceman/ICE
Geoff Sullivan
I think you did the right thing, Maurice. I think it caused a needed stir
in the Commodore community. If nothing else, this thread has generated
more traffic than any topic in recent memory! I hope you do whatever you
need to do to get your domestic life and your business back on track.
Once that stuff is settled, the programming may go smoother anyway. We
Commodore users have been around a long time and I, for one, can wait
however long is necessary for the quality software you can produce.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\\ Geoff Sullivan sun...@gis.net
\\ ....;;;;;;;;;;o. _ \\ FidoNet: 1:101/337
)):;;;;;;;;;;;;;(;;;( (~~~` geo...@world.std.com
// '' // http://www.gis.net/~sunfish
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blazè Mofondo
This story sounds like it is coming to a happy ending.
Maurice having followed up with the upload situation, vented his
frustrations, apologized for venting a little too roughly (in his
estimation), and Adam's having removed the offending upload from his BBS
and expressing his genuine disappointment with the status of C= software
distribution.
That is one of the things I have ALWAYS loved about C= users. We're not
afraid to face issues, AND (here is the key) to resolve them. Whether it
is in the limitations placed on us coding on an 8-bit machine, or the
difficulties that arise between each other occasionally (hey, we're *human*
too!).
Maurice and Adam (and the rest), my hat is off to you! Thank you both for
your untiring support of C=! Our C= experience would be greatly diminished
without you.
Chris McLeod
(aka Blaze Mofondo)
email address: CraftyC at Concentric dot Net
(change the "at" to @ and the "dot" to . to send email)
Sp...@spam-free.uucp
Marko =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E4kel=E4?= (Marko....@HUT.FI) wrote:
> >>>>> "Hernan" == <hver...@coyote.accessnv.com> writes:
>
> Hernan> On 17 Nov 1997, Marko Mäkelä wrote:
>
> >> I don't know how many GEOS coders there are around, but it might
> >> well be that an open software development model would work there
> >> better. When several people are working on a problem, it is likely
> >> to be solved faster.
>
>
> put restrictions on the use of CS-DOS. I remember reading that you
> would have to sign a non-disclosure agreement in order to get the
> source code. I wouldn't call that open software development, and it
> does not surprise me that no 3rd party software for CS-DOS has become
> available.
CS-DOS is a dead fish. ACE seems to be the coolest thing around at the
moment, you get a neat shell, comms progs and a development environment.
Pity development has slowed somewhat...
arc...@delphi.com
> From: Iceman <ice...@nospamzoomnet.net>
> (John Pinson)
> Maurice, I feel as some others have posted on here that
>you owe Adam an apology. I've known him from since he
>was a first time user with a 300 baud modem, and he has
John,
I've basically apologized to Adam already in a previous
message. I haven't slammed him at all, I've only brought
this subject out into the open. Everybody wanted me to
release the name of the BBS and I did. Prior to that, they
were ready to kill him. Now they've calmed down. The only
thing I said about Adam is that I was surprised that it was
his BBS that had my program on it. What's wrong with that
statement?
I also released the name of the original owner of that copy of
geoFAX, Michael Weathers. As it turns out, he sold it to
someone from the Portland Oregon area. This is likely the
culprit in all of this. I doubt I will ever know who that
is.
Somebody made a bad mistake of uploading my copyrighted
software to Adam's BBS. I don't think Adam left it there
on purpose. I think he merely neglected checking to see
if it was copyrighted or not. I'll excuse him for that. And
I'm sorry if I've offended him. If Adam can deal with this
fiasco, then he will continue on and most likely will gain
much more respect than before. He didn't pirate my program,
someone else did, but Adam, as well as many other BBS sysops
will likely be more careful from now on.
.
If you think about it, any Commodore file that gets uploaded
and appears to be a fax program should automatically be
suspected, don't you think? What other fax programs are there?
It's ok to have the faxdemo I released a few years ago, it
can't do much of anything anyway. But the actual program is
a no-no. No matter what anybody thinks, there shouldn't be
a single solitary copy of geoFAX sitting on any BBS anywhere.
And I have every right to be upset about it. I shouldn't have
to go checking all the BBS's myself, that's the responsibility
of the BBS operator, not me. John, you should know that. I
don't agree with the statement where you said I should log
on and check the files on your BBS. That's your job, not mine.
geoFAX was only downloaded from Adam's BBS 6 times, my download
was one of those 6. But where did it go from there? Maybe those
downloaders couldn't use it anyway, if they don't have the
right hardware.
.
This thing all started with my editorial in our club's
newsletter, 'Double Click'. My editorial may have been
misinterpretted somewhat. I'm not quitting programming on
the Commodore, but seeing geoFAX available for downloading
woke me up. I finally came to the realization that I've got
to get my priorities organized a little better. I've been
doing the wrong thing in thinking that I could make a living,
or even a partial living at programming. It's a personal
thing, that's all. But the pirating is what triggered me.
Programming has been an obsession. I've spent way too much
time at it and neglected other responsibilities. I realize
now that I've got to treat it more like a hobby rather than
a business.
.
To Adam,
Here's a big apology. If I've offended you or hurt your
feelings in any way, I'm sorry. I know that when I see
negative things written about myself, it hurts bad. I've
always thought that constructive criticism is good for a
person. If I've criticized you in any way, take it for the
good of it. Don't be mad about it and you'll go a lot farther.
Without talking to you in person, I can tell from your
writing that you've got some common sense and enjoy what
you're doing. Keep it up.
.
To everyone else,
Thanks for all the support and thanks for participating in
this discussion and somewhat controlled, partially heated,
debate. I think this was good for everyone.
.
Also, Project G is not cancelled. It will be a product that
will be released soon. It has an official name now. The name
will be kept a secret for awhile. There is no copyright
infringement here since it will be made available as an
upgrade to GEOS 2.0. You will have to have an original
GEOS 2.0 disk, and you must boot up GEOS from it in order
to install Project G. Once installed, MakeSysDisk is a
new application that can create additional bootable disks
or partitions for you. Once I get licensing rights from
GeoWorks, I'll be able to release the product as a stand-alone.
Until then, it'll be an upgrade to the existing GEOS 2.0.
If I work hard, it can still be ready for Christmas, but
I'm not going to do that. It won't be long, however.
.
-Maurice
Matt Price
That may be true, however, you have to FIND a person who is willing to go
through over a Gig of Files EVERYDAY. That turns into a full time job.
For me, I would hire someone to do that job, but then, no one would call
the board because the $2.50 per minute charge would rack up an enormous
bill.
I think that by human nature, the critical people are blowing the incident
too far out of proportion for it is worth. The method of policing a piece
of software like Todd Elliot explained, would be perfect, if this were a
perfect world. But it is not. There is only trouble, like you said, when
someone flies off the handle and makes the trouble.
I had a person upload the full version of GEOS onto my system a year back.
I did not know this because it was in IBM format until someone notified me
of it. I also had GeoPublish upladed to my BBS over 3 years ago under the
filename PDPublish.lnx and the descriptions were that it was a Public
Domain Publishing program. This was when volumes topped out at 100 callers
per day and there was always 6-10 Megs of files on the BBS.
The BBS system TELLS you when you call that if there is anything that is
out of place, to page, or mail the system operator. The BBS is supported
by the USERS!!! Not the SysOp. He is there to make sure that the digital
0's and 1's are there and if the BBS is acting up to fix it. And to ensure
the security of the system.
BBSing is a Hobby - not a job. I run my BBS as a Hobby - which means I
dedicate an hour or so out of my life per day to tinkering and tweaking it.
Like a hobby should be. Users who say nothing concerning the operation of
the BBS lead me to believe that everything is OK. Problem reporting is not
one of those things that is done by the elite, it is done by all people.
Like ICEMAN said, if there is a person who wants to go through all 4 Gig of
Hard Drive Space on his system, or all 1 Gig on my system, then I will give
them access. But as far as complaining about it, like MacAurthur said "Put
up or Shaddap."
I am not saying this to be nasty, but it bugs me that one incident like
this which is more than overly common on AOL or other areas of the Internet
in the IBM world gets blown too far out of proportion. So far it becomes
rediculous.
Getting the Hint?!
Ruth Hackley <f...@rosenet.net> wrote in article
<01bcf4b9$8c483200$4c58cbcc@fgm1>...
Iceman
Maurice,
I agree with alot of what you've said in this most recent
letter. And no, I don't expect you to call my board and go
thru all of my files checking them. I said that rather
tounge in check, to help others visualize what a real job
doing what alot of these people are calling for the BBS
SysOp's to do. I've also done a scan of my system for the
word "fax" in my U/D for you with negative results. Can't
speak for all of the SysOps and users out there, but I will
continue to support those who support the Commodore. I just
hope that you will realize from the responce that you have
received on this situation that there are STILL alot of
people out there who will support YOU.
Concerning Adam, its not specifically what you have said
that is the cause for concern. It is what some of the more
overzealous people are proposing as a retaliation and saying
things that shouldn't be said here in our Commodore Community.
And for myself as one of your fellow Commodore enthusiests
who has in the past enjoyed GEOS for certain things, mostly
graphics and messing around, am looking forward to your update
of GEOS as a prospective customer. I can't say that I would
want to purchase GeoFax as I actually own a fax machine... :)
But the upgrade does interest me.
On another note, hehe, what BBS software are you running
your system on and have you considered getting something newer
that is networked into the most active, if not the currently
largest, Commodore specific Network? And I am certain that
you like the programming and layout of the system. :) As you
can tell, my other hobby is selling things.
And I hope that others here in our Community continue to
show you, Adam, and our other talented programmers the
support that a few have voiced here on this newsgroup by
buying the good products that your producing.
In article <ZxbDvsa...@delphi.com>, arc...@delphi.com says...
Iceman
>There is certain ways of stopping piracy. Creating registration codes
>that require them calling to get the codes to be registered.
This is just one of many ways of SLOWING piracy, what you have to understand
that what one coder can dream up to stop the average user, another coder can
and will eventually break. This registration code deal is used extensively on
the IBM Compatable platform and generally simply results in the passing around
of the registration codes. Whoopie, makes it pretty easy for the pirates in
that respect.
Want to really slow down piracy? Reasonably price the software, write software
that can be upgraded by registered users, have loyal owners of said software.
Now for some software (games) this can be a stiff challenge, but for specific
programs (ie: GeoFAX, Centipede, and so on) it can be done.
Ginny Fanello
Since all of your friends showed up, I figured that Adam wouldn't mind a
relative popping off.
Besides... I am a firm believer of who exactly has the rights to tell me
what I SHOULD DO.. that right is given only to the person that pays for
the right.. my boss.. Anyone else may suggest, encourage, or
recommend... NO ONE HERE, has the right to say SHOULD at me.. (the
fastest way to ruffle muh feathers!)
BTW... I've cheated and read this entire thread before responding. I
still notice a lot of shoulds of what Adam or I are doing with our time.
Someone asked why have a ud in our bbs.. for Nature Reserve.. there are
2 concerns..
1.. There are quite a few sysop support files for Centipede & V128
2. Since the bbs software is our product, we need to "display
features" If we totally elimenate the ud, we would lose a display to
those who think that the ud is an important feature.
Someone mentioned that we could just delete all non-discriptive
uploads.. I was delighted to see that someone beat me to the obvious
idea of typing misleading discriptions. When I first started 'modeming
around', there was this guy that uploaded tons of games with the
discription... great game, download it soon........ The funny thing is
that everything he uploaded was unusable.
Maurice.. you said that I had to admit that Adam got a lot of
publicity.. pardon me for not being delighted that we received tons of
negative publicity.
The real ironic part of this whole thing is that you have no idea of how
many 'runners' we told to take a hike in the years that NR has been
running. Yes, in the past, we have even been excluded from local bbs'
because we refused to move stuff around.
We have elimenated the suggestion that we will accept any GeoFax copy by
elimenating the word GEOS from our ud... The person that originally
requested that category so he could put up all the nifty
freeware/shareware files to encourage others to discover GEOS is no
longer in our area anyway.
How could Adam have let that file sit in the ud unnoticed?? Tis easy..
He was busy getting Centipede released. It has been a busy year for
him.
I have also learned a lesson. This OWL will no longer pop in on a new
user, say hidy hooo and give em instant access or credits again.
:( and that makes me really sad.
Mark Wigston
Maurice I can understand how you feel about finding your software on a
bbs for download. But how was adam to know if it was the demo or the
program? anyhow I saw that you posted that you will be treating your
programming as a hoby and not a business. Understand that once you have
sold your software to others it has become a business, and with that
business comes responsibilities. When Bugs or problems with the software,
or conflicts with the software and certain hardware are discovered, You
kind of have a responsibility to the person or persons that purchased
your software. You know the problem that I discovered with geoFax not
properly resetting the modem if a bad call was received. That was over 5
months ago and was never solved. That in itself inhibits people from
purchasing your software. Most hobby programmers just release there stuff
as freeware or shareware so that they dont feel pushed to fix problems
right away.
Also I run a bbs as you may well have seen, I very may well have software
that is not in the public domain available for download. I have know way
of knowing if it is or not. Most old software where the producers are
defunct I would imagine are public but it may not always be the case.
What about Geos 1.2 or everything upto but not including 2.0 is that free
for public download? I heard of CMD only 1 year ago when I first heard
about it. I found games for sale there that I had allready downloaded
from a local bbs. What must we do to prevent piriacy? must we order all
available catalogs from software providers and delete this software from
our bbs's? I just have no idea what is and is not free to download! I
therefore must take it all offline from my bbs and start over again
Can you let us know where we can obtain such information???
In the Case of your fax program I did not ever have that available for
download on my bbs because I am a registered owner of geoFax as you know.
that would be the only way that i would have known that it was
copywrited. But I do have it Zipped up and stored on my hard drive just
in case a disk ever goes bad or the 81 partition that I use it on gets
zapped. But what would prevent a CoSysop from creating a directory or
simply in sysop mode moving that archive over to a downloadable
directory. and that is almost impossible for me to detect unless I scan
all the directories on a regular basis.
What do we do?
mark wigston
--
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The Vault BBS (416)694-2193 On Centipede 128 BBS
550 MEGS / 7 Days / 24 Hours / / 14.4 connect / ANSI / C/G / FREE!
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arc...@delphi.com
In response to Mark Wigston...
>>Maurice I can understand how you feel about finding your software on a
>>bbs for download. But how was adam to know if it was the demo or the
>>program?
to check out geoFAX being on his BBS.
>>anyhow I saw that you posted that you will be treating your
>>programming as a hoby and not a business. Understand that once you have
>>sold your software to others it has become a business, and with that
>>business comes responsibilities. When Bugs or problems with the software,
>>or conflicts with the software and certain hardware are discovered, You
>>kind of have a responsibility to the person or persons that purchased
>>your software. You know the problem that I discovered with geoFax not
>>properly resetting the modem if a bad call was received. That was over 5
>>months ago and was never solved. That in itself inhibits people from
>>purchasing your software. Most hobby programmers just release there stuff
>>as freeware or shareware so that they dont feel pushed to fix problems
>>right away.
other little details that have shown up. In the end, it'll be a better
program. I'm not a big company with 100 programmers. If I was, I wouldn't
be writing software for the 64/128 platform. So, it tends to take me longer
to do things. Besides, taking awhile to fix a problem is not illegal, but
pirating copyrighted software is. And this thread is not about how long
it takes me to write my software, is it? I could change my ways and charge
money for upgrades (bug fixes) like Microsoft does.
>>Also I run a bbs as you may well have seen, I very may well have software
>>that is not in the public domain available for download. I have know way
>>of knowing if it is or not. Most old software where the producers are
>>defunct I would imagine are public but it may not always be the case.
commercial software on your BBS, then it's illegal.
>>What about Geos 1.2 or everything upto but not including 2.0 is that free
>>for public download?
The only one I know of is the NewDeal software for the PC platform which
is available for downloading as shareware. The idea is to get you to
buy the full version. NewDeal is the replacement for GEOS Ensemble that
GeoWorks released for the PC.
>>I heard of CMD only 1 year ago when I first heard
>>about it. I found games for sale there that I had allready downloaded
>>from a local bbs. What must we do to prevent piriacy? must we order all
>>available catalogs from software providers and delete this software from
>>our bbs's? I just have no idea what is and is not free to download!
So and So', that should be the first tip that it might be an illegal
copy of copyrighted software. Also, look at the original opening screen.
In most cases, you'll find your information right there. Copyright notices
are usually displayed real early in the program. Check the documentation.
Oh, no docs? That's because the manual was a printed item. If the software
comes with documentation on disk, then the info you need will be in
the docs there. If it's PD or shareware, you'll find the info there.
I wonder why everyone is now asking me what to do about copyrighted sofware?
My main concern is that geoFAX is not pirated. Software from other
companies or individuals is not my concern, nor is the policing of
BBS's my concern.
>>I therefore must take it all offline from my bbs and start over again
>>Can you let us know where we can obtain such information???
your answers there. And I believe you will discover that it's illegal
to have copyrighted software and cracked software on your BBS.
But if you check with them, they just might want to have a look at
your BBS. And that might be bad for you.
>>In the Case of your fax program I did not ever have that available for
>>download on my bbs because I am a registered owner of geoFax as you know.
yet or caused any legal hassles yet either, have I. But you know what I've
been told? I've been told that I should still go after Adam even if it's
only a formality. I've been told that I should proceed to sue him in order
to protect my own legal rights to geoFAX. Apparently, if I let it slide,
then another BBS can cite this case and show where nothing was done about
it. If I proceed, it can be done with no fines or court appearances. It
would basically be an out of court settlement at no cost to Adam or
myself. Just a mere formality. Should I do this, or should I just forget
about it. I would prefer to just forget about it and hope that geoFAX
is promptly removed from any and all BBS's. Because if I catch another
BBS with geoFAX, after all this publicity, I won't be so kind.
>>But I do have it Zipped up and stored on my hard drive just
>>in case a disk ever goes bad or the 81 partition that I use it on gets
>>zapped.
all right. The first thing you see when you open up your geoFAX package
is a notice to make backup copies of the disk.
>>But what would prevent a CoSysop from creating a directory or
>>simply in sysop mode moving that archive over to a downloadable
>>directory. and that is almost impossible for me to detect unless I scan
>>all the directories on a regular basis.
>>What do we do?
CoSysop what's right and what's wrong. Simple. As the BBS owner and
operator, you are responsible for your CoSysop's actions. I would
be very cautious if I were you.
There are other individuals and companies that aren't as easy to get
along with as I am. As innocent as Adam may be in this case, many other
companies would have had his BBS closed down and his equipment confiscated
and Adam would have been a real bad guy. I didn't do that to him, did I?
-Maurice
XmikeX
arc...@delphi.com (Maurice Randall) said :
>There are other individuals and companies that aren't as easy to get
>along with as I am. As innocent as Adam may be in this case, many other
>companies would have had his BBS closed down and his equipment confiscated
>and Adam would have been a real bad guy. I didn't do that to him, did I?
been involved in bringing Mr. Fanello to "justice" would have been
prohibitive considering the material at stake.
>When a game starts out with an opening screen announcing 'Cracked by
>So and So', that should be the first tip that it might be an illegal
>copy of copyrighted software. Also, look at the original opening screen.
>In most cases, you'll find your information right there. Copyright notices
>are usually displayed real early in the program. Check the documentation.
>Oh, no docs? That's because the manual was a printed item. If the software
did you come by such knowledge? Hmmm ?
XmX
--
...Those who live in glass houses...
azl...@cyberdude.com
Yes, after having read all of this....I am glad that it has been
settled and is now over with.
It is true, that the uploaders are the ones that are at fault when
there are files uploaded to the BBS. I once had someone that was
uploading files that were allready on my board so that he could get
download credits enough to download files from my board. Then this
same person would go to another board (without having run the files
that he had download - nor did he even read the file descriptions that
were with them) and upload them there so that he could download some
files from that board. I spotted one file in particular that was a
utility program for the Commodore 64. His description on the board
that he uploaded it to was "uh, I think it is a game" and it was not a
game that he had uploaded to that board.
Back then I had more time to spend looking around. Right now, I hardly
have the time to call up my board - yet alone call other boards. So,
the checking of files on my board is next to impossible. But, I do
have a system of making them upload where the files can be checked
before they are released. Now, after having done that, they tend to
not want to upload anymore. They want thier files released immediately
after they have uploaded them. And, the person that is supposed to be
checking my files does not wish to do so. He says that he never has
the time to do so. I know that he is just being lazy. But, they
stopped uploading, anyway. So go figure!?!?
Anyway, just my 2-cents worth.