GEOS on the Nintendo DS

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Andreas Varga

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Oct 21, 2006, 2:10:58 PM10/21/06
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Must've been at least ten years since I last posted in here.

Anyway, in case you're wondering, I had nothing better to do, so I
ported GEOS to the Nintendo DS.
See it in action here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuKIHP88GVQ
(that's the actual speed, I didn't mess with the video,...)

A download of the binary will be available soon.

Cheers,
Andreas

Andreas Kohlbach

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Oct 21, 2006, 7:14:41 PM10/21/06
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Andreas Varga wrote on 21. October 2006:
>
> Must've been at least ten years since I last posted in here.

Wow, welcome back. :-)

> Anyway, in case you're wondering, I had nothing better to do, so I
> ported GEOS to the Nintendo DS.
> See it in action here:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuKIHP88GVQ
> (that's the actual speed, I didn't mess with the video,...)

Awesome!

> A download of the binary will be available soon.

:-)

I also hope for a lot of documentation of how you did it.
--
Andreas
Ankman's SID homepage at http://people.freenet.de/ankman/sid.html

Golan Klinger

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Oct 21, 2006, 8:18:52 PM10/21/06
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Andreas Varga wrote:

> Anyway, in case you're wondering, I had nothing better to do, so I
> ported GEOS to the Nintendo DS.

Ported or got it running under an emulator? If the former, ported from
what? Do you have the source code for GEOS?

More information, please.

--
Golan Klinger
Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest.

xlar54

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Oct 21, 2006, 9:04:51 PM10/21/06
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Im slightly inclined to believe you are running an emulator ala:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MN3fYIzQSc&mode=related&search=

Andreas Varga

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Oct 22, 2006, 5:29:13 AM10/22/06
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On 2006-10-22 02:18:52 +0200, Golan Klinger <n...@sp.am> said:

> Andreas Varga wrote:
>
>> Anyway, in case you're wondering, I had nothing better to do, so I
>> ported GEOS to the Nintendo DS.
>
> Ported or got it running under an emulator? If the former, ported from
> what? Do you have the source code for GEOS?

No, it's not really emulation. The CPU is emulated, but the rest is
replaced with native code. Didn't need the GEOS source code for that,
since GEOS is very well documented.
I replaced GEOS' graphics routines, disk driver, mouse driver, etc.
It's based on the same work I did under the name "GEOS Warp" back in 1996.

This is the reason why it runs at usable speed (significantly faster
than a real C64, especially load times). Running it in a C64 emulator
such as Frodo (I'm not even sure if Frodo is good enough to run GEOS),
you would have to go through several more layers of emulation which
would just slow it down.

Cheers,
Andreas

Andreas Varga

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Oct 22, 2006, 5:36:35 AM10/22/06
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On 2006-10-22 03:04:51 +0200, "xlar54" <scott....@gmail.com> said:

> Im slightly inclined to believe you are running an emulator ala:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MN3fYIzQSc&mode=related&search=

Yeah, it might look like I did that. But if you look closely you'll see
that Frodo is running on the upper screen of the DS, with the virtual
keyboard on the lower screen, while geosDS runs on the lower screen
only (since only the lower screen is a touchscreen).
And Frodo scales down the C64 image to fit the DS screen, while I have
a scrolling window. Otherwise it would be hard to read some of the
small GEOS fonts.

To be honest, I did steal the virtual keyboard graphics from Frodo though... :)

Cheers,
Andreas


>

xlar54

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Oct 22, 2006, 9:35:45 PM10/22/06
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What is GEOS Warp?

Also, this shouldnt be too difficult to run on a PC if you can get it
to run on an N-DS. Have you thought about porting it to a PC?

Andreas Varga

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Oct 23, 2006, 2:35:04 AM10/23/06
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On 2006-10-23 03:35:45 +0200, "xlar54" <scott....@gmail.com> said:

> What is GEOS Warp?
>
> Also, this shouldnt be too difficult to run on a PC if you can get it
> to run on an N-DS. Have you thought about porting it to a PC?

Did that 10 years ago. MacOS, DOS and Unix versions.
The web archive still has the page online:
http://web.archive.org/web/20011031081354/http://stud1.tuwien.ac.at/~e9426444/geoswarp/

Cheers,
Andreas


xlar54

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Oct 23, 2006, 9:26:03 PM10/23/06
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After all these years, I would think you could release this by now.
GEOS itself is now free to download. Besides - you are only emulating
the code that GEOS runs on - you havent done anything to GEOS itself.
Essentially you have written a GEOS specific emulator. No one has sued
the VICE team or the MAME developers that I know of. I understand that
you want to support the Wheels system (which I agree with, btw) - but
you can easily do that by only releasing a binary version of your
emulation - coded to not allow Wheels to run under it. Your call of
course, but I think there's alot of value of what you have written and
its sad that it won't ever been seen or used by GEOS enthusiasts.

Andreas Varga

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Oct 24, 2006, 3:35:59 AM10/24/06
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On 2006-10-24 03:26:03 +0200, "xlar54" <scott....@gmail.com> said:

> After all these years, I would think you could release this by now.
> GEOS itself is now free to download. Besides - you are only emulating
> the code that GEOS runs on - you havent done anything to GEOS itself.
> Essentially you have written a GEOS specific emulator. No one has sued
> the VICE team or the MAME developers that I know of. I understand that
> you want to support the Wheels system (which I agree with, btw) - but
> you can easily do that by only releasing a binary version of your
> emulation - coded to not allow Wheels to run under it. Your call of
> course, but I think there's alot of value of what you have written and
> its sad that it won't ever been seen or used by GEOS enthusiasts.

I could release it, but I'm not really interested in that anymore.
GeosDS is just a fun hobby project to learn about the DS.
I will release it "as is" and then will go on to do other things.
I'm not interested in Wheels support.

Matthew W. Miller

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Oct 25, 2006, 7:14:18 PM10/25/06
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["Followup-To:" header set to comp.emulators.cbm.]

On 2006-10-24, Andreas Varga wrote:
> On 2006-10-24 03:26:03 +0200, "xlar54" <scott....@gmail.com> said:
>> After all these years, I would think you could release this by now.
> I could release it, but I'm not really interested in that anymore.

So because YOU'RE not interested in it, NO ONE ELSE can see it?
--
Matthew W. Miller <mwmi...@columbus.rr.com> Jai guru deva, OM.

Andreas Varga

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Oct 26, 2006, 1:58:49 PM10/26/06
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On 2006-10-26 01:14:18 +0200, "Matthew W. Miller"
<mwmi...@columbus.rr.com> said:

> ["Followup-To:" header set to comp.emulators.cbm.]
> On 2006-10-24, Andreas Varga wrote:
>> On 2006-10-24 03:26:03 +0200, "xlar54" <scott....@gmail.com> said:
>>> After all these years, I would think you could release this by now.
>> I could release it, but I'm not really interested in that anymore.
>
> So because YOU'RE not interested in it, NO ONE ELSE can see it?

Yes, because I AM not interested in doing a lot of work without getting paid.

Tsts. You think you have a right to demand free software?
Think again.

Sam Gillett

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Oct 27, 2006, 1:07:35 AM10/27/06
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"Andreas Varga" wrote ...

> On 2006-10-26 01:14:18 +0200, "Matthew W. Miller"
> <mwmi...@columbus.rr.com> said:
>
>> ["Followup-To:" header set to comp.emulators.cbm.]
>> On 2006-10-24, Andreas Varga wrote:
>>> On 2006-10-24 03:26:03 +0200, "xlar54" <scott....@gmail.com> said:
>>>> After all these years, I would think you could release this by now.
>>> I could release it, but I'm not really interested in that anymore.
>>
>> So because YOU'RE not interested in it, NO ONE ELSE can see it?
>
> Yes, because I AM not interested in doing a lot of work without getting
> paid.

How much work would it be to release the source for something you have
already done the work on?

> Tsts. You think you have a right to demand free software?

He was not demanding free software. However, he did seem curious as to why
you would not release the source code for a hobby project that you do not
plan to make any money from anyway.

> Think again.

Don't get so upset. It isn't like Matthew insulted you or anything of that
nature.
--
Best regards,

Sam Gillett

If you don't pay your exorcist,
will you become repossessed?

Andreas Varga

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Oct 27, 2006, 7:14:40 AM10/27/06
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On 2006-10-27 07:07:35 +0200, "Sam Gillett"
<samgille...@diespammermsn.com> said:

> He was not demanding free software. However, he did seem curious as to why
> you would not release the source code for a hobby project that you do not
> plan to make any money from anyway.

It was never planned to be open-source. Yeah, releasing the source
wouldn't take long,
but I preserve my right not to do that for this project. I've released
many things in source.
Usually with no or little response.

It was planned as a finished, usable piece of software. It is far from
that. And that is the thing I'm
not interested in. Also because the window of usefulness of this
software has long passed.

> Don't get so upset. It isn't like Matthew insulted you or anything of that
> nature.

He was shouting, after all... :)

Cameron Kaiser

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Oct 27, 2006, 10:59:03 AM10/27/06
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"Sam Gillett" <samgille...@diespammermsn.com> writes:

>>Yes, because I AM not interested in doing a lot of work without getting
>>paid.

>How much work would it be to release the source for something you have
>already done the work on?

Actually, I'm going to side with Andreas. Even when I release source to
things and tell people do what you want with it and don't bother me please,
I still get requests and angry mail asking why I don't update this, that
or the other thing, or why I'm not incorporating their pet changes, even
when I've said clearly I'm not accepting modifications.

I don't know if this is Andreas' reasoning or not, but I do sympathize with
his annoyance. The time cost, at least, of supporting even "unsupported"
source is not zero.

--
Cameron Kaiser * cka...@floodgap.com * posting with a Commodore 128
personal page: http://www.armory.com/%7Espectre/
** Computer Workshops: games, productivity software and more for C64/128! **
** http://www.armory.com/%7Espectre/cwi/ **

MagerValp

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Oct 27, 2006, 12:59:38 PM10/27/06
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>>>>> "AV" == Andreas Varga <andrea...@mac.com> writes:

AV> It was planned as a finished, usable piece of software. It is far
AV> from that. And that is the thing I'm not interested in. Also
AV> because the window of usefulness of this software has long passed.

Indeed. However, I'd be interested in seeing source for a 6502
emulator geared towards application/system porting. I've considered
porting a few C64 apps this way myself, but writing a 6502 core from
scratch is tedious and error prone. If you have a good core that
allows you to hook native functions into C64 code, that could be worth
releasing on its own.

But yeah, I know how much work it is to "just release the source", and
I understand if you don't want to.

--
___ . . . . . + . . o
_|___|_ + . + . + . Per Olofsson, arkadspelare
o-o . . . o + Mage...@cling.gu.se
- + + . http://www.cling.gu.se/~cl3polof/

xlar54

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Oct 27, 2006, 11:59:27 PM10/27/06
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With all due respect, Andreas, I think you underestimate your
contributions to the Commodore scene. Response isnt always a gauge on
one's impact to a community. Those who know your work respect it well.
Most GEOS related documents on the net come with your name attached,
as of course does the SID player. Your perogative to not release the
GEOS emulation - we have VICE now and can readily run GEOS. But just
know that finished or not - theres alot of folks out there who could
learn alot from your work. The "window of usefulness" doesnt really
ever close on stuff people can learn from.

All aside, no need to flame I suppose. Running it on the DS is one cool
hack... do you intend on releasing those binaries and/or source? I
think by virtue of this thread, GEOS is far from dead.

Sam Gillett

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Oct 28, 2006, 1:03:48 AM10/28/06
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"Cameron Kaiser" wrote ...

> "Sam Gillett" <samgille...@diespammermsn.com> writes:
>
>>How much work would it be to release the source for something you have
>>already done the work on?
>
> Actually, I'm going to side with Andreas. Even when I release source to
> things and tell people do what you want with it and don't bother me please,
> I still get requests and angry mail asking why I don't update this, that
> or the other thing, or why I'm not incorporating their pet changes, even
> when I've said clearly I'm not accepting modifications.

The angry mail begs to go unanswered. The rest need not be answered either,
unless you find something that interests you.

> I don't know if this is Andreas' reasoning or not, but I do sympathize with
> his annoyance. The time cost, at least, of supporting even "unsupported"
> source is not zero.

The time cost of doing email at all has gone up lately. I must have deleted
two dozen "investor alerts" today, not to mention the rest of the incoming
spam.

However, I agree that Andreas has the right to not release his source if that
is his wish. He seemed a little "hot under the collar" over Matthews
comment. I was trying to "de-fuse" that situation a little bit, but guess my
attempt was somewhat clumsy.
--
Best regards,

Sam Gillett

Change is inevitable,
except from vending machines!

Cameron Kaiser

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Oct 28, 2006, 2:14:01 PM10/28/06
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"Sam Gillett" <samgille...@diespammermsn.com> writes:

>>>How much work would it be to release the source for something you have
>>>already done the work on?

>>Actually, I'm going to side with Andreas. Even when I release source to
>>things and tell people do what you want with it and don't bother me please,
>>I still get requests and angry mail asking why I don't update this, that
>>or the other thing, or why I'm not incorporating their pet changes, even
>>when I've said clearly I'm not accepting modifications.

>The angry mail begs to go unanswered. The rest need not be answered either,
>unless you find something that interests you.

Of course not, but in a small community, someone making a lot of public noise
is still quite annoying even if unjustified.

Pheuque

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Oct 29, 2006, 10:47:04 AM10/29/06
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Andreas Varga wrote:

> Yes, because I AM not interested in doing a lot of work without getting paid.

On a more positive note to encourage you... How much payment would make
it worth your while? ;-)

I for one wouldn't mind contributing to a "bounty" for this. I've been
dreaming of a GEOS handheld for 20 years now.

Andreas Varga

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Oct 31, 2006, 4:09:33 AM10/31/06
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On 2006-10-27 18:59:38 +0200, MagerValp <Mage...@cling.gu.se> said:

>>>>>> "AV" == Andreas Varga <andrea...@mac.com> writes:
>
> AV> It was planned as a finished, usable piece of software. It is far
> AV> from that. And that is the thing I'm not interested in. Also
> AV> because the window of usefulness of this software has long passed.
>
> Indeed. However, I'd be interested in seeing source for a 6502
> emulator geared towards application/system porting. I've considered
> porting a few C64 apps this way myself, but writing a 6502 core from
> scratch is tedious and error prone. If you have a good core that
> allows you to hook native functions into C64 code, that could be worth
> releasing on its own.

I wrote this 6502 core about ten years ago, and I think it's far from perfect.
Binding it to native code is trivial, as that is done via a special
opcode that has
a 16bit function identifier as immediate parameter.
So I could just replace the opcode of JSR calls to GEOS functions with
that special external call opcode, and use the GEOS function addresses
as identifiers.
After that it was just a matter of implementing all the GEOS kernal
routines in native code.

MagerValp

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Oct 31, 2006, 5:43:33 AM10/31/06
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>>>>> "AV" == Andreas Varga <andrea...@mac.com> writes:

AV> I wrote this 6502 core about ten years ago, and I think it's far
AV> from perfect. Binding it to native code is trivial, as that is
AV> done via a special opcode that has a 16bit function identifier as
AV> immediate parameter.

Ah, OK.

I got inspired and coded a 6502 emu tuned for porting yesterday. I
made it return to native code with the JAM opcodes ($x2), making it
possible to bind there. I'm also thinking about adding PC traps, as
that has the advantage of not requiring patched 6502 code.

Andreas Varga

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Oct 31, 2006, 2:54:56 PM10/31/06
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On 2006-10-31 11:43:33 +0100, MagerValp <Mage...@cling.gu.se> said:

>>>>>> "AV" == Andreas Varga <andrea...@mac.com> writes:
>
> AV> I wrote this 6502 core about ten years ago, and I think it's far
> AV> from perfect. Binding it to native code is trivial, as that is
> AV> done via a special opcode that has a 16bit function identifier as
> AV> immediate parameter.
>
> Ah, OK.
>
> I got inspired and coded a 6502 emu tuned for porting yesterday. I
> made it return to native code with the JAM opcodes ($x2), making it
> possible to bind there. I'm also thinking about adding PC traps, as
> that has the advantage of not requiring patched 6502 code.

Yes, I did exactly the same thing, as for certain bits of code there
was no clean entry
address, so I had to trap the emulation at a certain location.
Or for the copy protection of some apps... :)


Andreas Varga

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Nov 11, 2006, 11:03:34 AM11/11/06
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I've packaged up the initial release of geosDS for public release.

Grab it here: http://galway.c64.org/geosds/

Cheers,
Andreas

Kelli Halliburton

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Nov 11, 2006, 3:42:45 PM11/11/06
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On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 17:03:34 +0100, Andreas Varga wrote:

>
> I've packaged up the initial release of geosDS for public release.
>
> Grab it here: http://galway.c64.org/geosds/

Well, I can't see the video. And when I try to click on the object to load
it up on YouTube's site, it says "malformed video ID". I think maybe you
need to check the HTML on the page...?

Tom Lake

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Nov 11, 2006, 4:13:58 PM11/11/06
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"Kelli Halliburton" <kell...@crosswinds.not.invalid> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.11.11....@crosswinds.not.invalid...

Either he fixed it since your message or there's a problem with your
system. I can see it just fine with what sounds like a French song
playing in the background.

Tom Lake


Kelli Halliburton

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Nov 11, 2006, 4:26:00 PM11/11/06
to

The problem still exists.

But I have checked the page's HTML source, and can find nothing wrong --
and similar YouTube embedded videos work just fine on other pages with
this same browser.

I have no idea what's wrong.

I was able to see the video by searching YouTube for "geosDS", and was
quite impressed.

christi...@yahoo.com

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Nov 12, 2006, 12:30:10 AM11/12/06
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Yes, excellent video - and a nice plug at the end for Maurice.

Coincidence?

Cameron Kaiser

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Nov 12, 2006, 11:53:02 AM11/12/06
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Andreas Varga <andrea...@mac.com> writes:

>I've packaged up the initial release of geosDS for public release.
>Grab it here: http://galway.c64.org/geosds/

Excellent work. You make me almost want to go buy a DS.

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