DSP port on the Falcon
Carey Christenson
I am sure this has been asked a million times but I
have yet to have seen this mentioned in CSAST. But
what is the DSP port on the back of the Falcon used
for??? Makes me very curious and want to tackle
another MOD on my Falcon as soon as I have the CT60
installed.
Thanks for the help,
Carey Christenson
III
III "The High Flying Atari Falcon 030
/I\ Soon to be CT60
/ I \
Atari Falcon 030 running at 16 mhz. DSP running at 32 mhz. 14 megs of RAM
Coming CT60 with a 68060 running at 72 mhz. 256 megs of PC133 SDRam
Eclipse with 4 meg ATI Graphic Card
Coming 64 megs of DDR SDRam GC by NATURE for the CT60
Coming Deesse sound card with 100mhz. 56301 DSP processor running up to 6 times faster than the stock DSP
84 meg Conner Hard Drive
40 GB IDE Maxtor 7200 RPM Hard Drive
4.5 GB SCSI Seagate 7200 RPM Hard Drive
24 X Cyberdrive CD-Rom
10x4x32x Sony CD-Burner
56K CNET modem
19 inch Samsung 955DF VGA monitor
Epson Stylus color 880 Printer
5.1 Surround Sound System
Atari 1040STf with 2.5 megs of RAM
80 meg IBM Hard Drive
1.1 GB Conner Hard Drive
14.4 US Robotics Modem
SC1224 color monitor
Atari 130XE with 128K of RAM
20 meg Atari Hard Drive
120 meg Quantum Hard Drive
2 5 1/4" 1050's with US Doubler upgrades
Blackbox unit
2 Panasonic Dot Matrix Printers
Color Monitor
Adam Klobukowski
> Everyone,
> I am sure this has been asked a million times but I
> have yet to have seen this mentioned in CSAST. But
> what is the DSP port on the back of the Falcon used
> for??? Makes me very curious and want to tackle
> another MOD on my Falcon as soon as I have the CT60
> installed.
Most people fit external DSP clock there, so they can replay/record
44kHz and 48kHz samples without interpolation.
It may be used for many more things for sure.
--
Semper Fidelis
Adam Klobukowski
at...@gabo.pl
Carey Christenson
What adavantage would plugging a DSP clock give a
person?? Does it improve the performance of the
computer by very much?? I also wonder what else can
be done with the DSP port?? Anyone else have
information??
Thanks semper,
Adam Klobukowski
> Semper,
Not Semper but Adam ;)
> What adavantage would plugging a DSP clock give a
> person?? Does it improve the performance of the
> computer by very much?? I also wonder what else can
> be done with the DSP port?? Anyone else have
> information??
Without external clock DSP plays/records samples at a bit strange
freqencies. They are close to commonly used, but not enough. Then to save
them as (or play such sample) it must be interpolated to correct freqency
and it decreses its quality. And for example, such interpolation costs
CPU/DSP time and it may be important for realtime apps.
For other uses... I do not know, it is an most obvious use...
Martin Tarenskeen
> Semper,
> What adavantage would plugging a DSP clock give a
> person?? Does it improve the performance of the
> computer by very much?? I also wonder what else can
> be done with the DSP port?? Anyone else have
> information??
>
I have a Steinberg FDI (Falcon Digital Interface) connected to the DSP
port. This gives optical and coaxial digital in- and outputs that I can
connect directly to a DAT, MD, or DCC recorder. Great for CAF and
Soundpool Audiomaster software.
I also have a "Jam OUT 8" box that can be connected to the DSP port
(Soundpool has a similar box). It is an 8 channel D/A convertor with 8
separate outputs. This gives a much better audio output from the Falcon
than the built in D/A convertor that leads to the mini-jack on the back of
the Falcon.
Martin Tarenskeen
Smeg
Adam Klobukowski <at...@gabo.pl> wrote in message
news:slrnbdb86i...@core.preferuje.luzik.pl...
Slight correction, the external clock plugs into the DSP port, yes. But it
doesnt supply a clock to the DSP, but to the Codec chip. The clock is
divided to give the correct frequency, IE a 22.5792 Mhz crystal will give
you the required 44 Khz sample clock, and a 24.576 Mhz one will give you
48Khz (Used for DAT).
Smeg.
Smeg
Martin Tarenskeen <nos...@zonnet.nl> wrote in message
news:Pine.MNT.4.31.0305291333550.141-100000@UNI_MANiac...
I use the Soundpool version of the FDI (well they are all made by soundpool)
buts its labelled an SP/DIF and its a much nicer green colour :-) and the
soundpool labelled version of the FA-8 (8 analog outputs similar to the JAM
8) is called an Analog 8.
To Carey:
Because the DSP port is actually tied to the DSP chip (apart from other
things), there are quite a few possibilities for this port, though nothing
much was ever made other than studio hardware because I guess there wasnt
much of a market at the crucial time.
I think the most important one is the fact that there is a super fast serial
capability on the DSP chip, and the serial connections come out to the DSP
port. This could be used for a USB or an Ethernet device if anyone wants to
design one.
Smeg.
Wayne Martz
Well, the most important use for me is to plug into external recording
devices, ei., FDI, FAD 8. This allows for professional quality
recording. Other than that, the dsp "chip" is used with software that
is written for it, ei., aniplayer, but the port is for recording with
another device
Wayne
Michael and Nicole Freeman
smeg...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com wrote on 5/29/03 5:51 AM:
> Because the DSP port is actually tied to the DSP chip (apart from other
> things), there are quite a few possibilities for this port, though nothing
> much was ever made other than studio hardware because I guess there wasnt
> much of a market at the crucial time.
> I think the most important one is the fact that there is a super fast serial
> capability on the DSP chip, and the serial connections come out to the DSP
> port. This could be used for a USB or an Ethernet device if anyone wants to
> design one.
At one point, when the Falcon first came out, I remember reading about the
possibility of connecting some sort of digital modem to the DSP port, but I
never heard anything more about that afterwards. Ethernet might be a good
modern equivalent, if someone would ever want to build one. Although, just
like the ROM port devices being made, this assumes you don't already use it
for something else, or don't mind swapping devices back and forth on the
port.
Mike Freeman
nam...@flash.net
Carey Christenson
Thanks for the information!!! I really appreciate
all the information. Just a few questions. I would
like to get one of these DSP clocks anyone know where
they are available at?? And Martin, about recording
to Digital devices... is it possible to convert MP3's
to WAVE files with ANIPLAYER then copy them to a tape
recording device with that device you have??
Thanks all,
Pascal Ricard
in article <1054219142-...@adelphia.net> (comp.sys.atari.st),
Carey Christenson wrote on Thu 29-05-2003 19:43 (GMT):
> Everyone,
> Thanks for the information!!! I really appreciate
> all the information. Just a few questions. I would
> like to get one of these DSP clocks anyone know where
> they are available at??
You may want to ask to Jan Krupka
http://jaysoft.atari.org
He is going to built a few ones for people interested. Price should be
under 15 EUR / 10 £ if there are enough people.
Bye,
/Pascal/
PS: Please, save the bandwidth! Make your sig shorter. You can also add
a sig separator as you were already advised. Thanx in advance :-)
--
Europe Shareware: http://europe-shareware.org
TransAction : http://atari.transaction.free.fr (Atari translations)
Ric's HomePage : http://paricard.free.fr
Edward S. Baiz Jr.
> I am sure this has been asked a million times but I
>have yet to have seen this mentioned in CSAST. But
>what is the DSP port on the back of the Falcon used
>for??? Makes me very curious and want to tackle
>another MOD on my Falcon as soon as I have the CT60
>installed.
>
>Thanks for the help,
>Carey Christenson
Hello Carey,
When I saw the Falcon being demoed at a past MIST, they were
mainly using it for playing music and vide samples. I am sure it
has many other uses.
--
Edward S. Baiz Jr.
(Gamer)
HADES 060: 256meg Ram, Yamaha & Sony CDRW Drive, 1 gig
Jaz Drive, MicroTek E3 Scanner, Mach 64 w/4meg Ram, Epson
Photo 700 printer, PCI Networking Card, ICQ#91257633
PROGRAMS: Extendos Gold, Cab 2.8, ScanX, GlueStik, aFTP,
Calamus SL2002, Newswatch, Okami, PlayMyCD, Papyrus 8, Smurf,
Nova Driver 2.67, NVDI 5, Mint(Net), Magic(Net), N.AES, Geneva
James Haslam
Hi all!
On 29 May 2003 14:51:56 , "Smeg" wrote:
>I think the most important one is the fact that there is a super fast serial
>capability on the DSP chip, and the serial connections come out to the DSP
>port. This could be used for a USB or an Ethernet device if anyone wants to
>design one.
>
>Smeg.
Anyone?
This could be very important to help extend the life of our Falcons, at
least giving us the ability to use USB printers, as parallel port printers
are getting rare. :(
And not to mention digital cameras, scanners, etc etc!
Cheers,
James
--
James Haslam
Email: jfha...@zetnet.co.uk ICQ UIN: 37135025
Atari Pages: http://jfhaslam.atari.org
Homepages: http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/jfhaslam
Chairman, Cheshunt Computer Club. For more info see
the Club's website: http://www.cix.co.uk/~derryck
Carey Christenson
I most definetely aggree with you and SMEG!!! I
wonder if Rudolphe Czuba would be interested in
designing a USB 1.1 or 2.0 HUB that could attach lets
say 2 to 4 items at a time. Any thought on this would
be good time invested.
Thanks,
Carey Christenson
--
III
III "The High Flying Atari Falcon 030
/I\ Soon to be CT60
/ I \
Atari Falcon 030 running at 16 mhz. DSP running at 32 mhz. 14 megs of RAM
CT60, 68060RC66 @ 72 mhz., 512 megs PC133 SDRam
Eclipse, 4 meg ATI Graphic Card
Coming 64 meg DDR SDRam GC by NATURE for CT60
Coming DEESSE sound card, 100mhz. 56301 DSP 6X faster than stock DSP
84 meg Conner Hard Drive
40 GB IDE Maxtor 7200 RPM Hard Drive
4.5 GB SCSI Seagate 7200 RPM Hard Drive
24 X Cyberdrive CD-Rom
10x4x32x Sony CD-Burner
Ethernet card for Cartridge port
56K CNET modem NOT IN USE
19 inch Samsung 955DF VGA monitor
Epson Stylus color 880 Printer
Atari 1040STf with 2.5 megs of RAM
Galen
> > Everyone,
> > Thanks for the information!!! I really appreciate
> > all the information. Just a few questions. I would
> > like to get one of these DSP clocks anyone know where
> > they are available at??
>
> You may want to ask to Jan Krupka
> http://jaysoft.atari.org
>
> He is going to built a few ones for people interested. Price should be
> under 15 EUR / 10 £ if there are enough people.
>
Looks easy enough, but what's a 7805?
Galen
Daniel Dreibelbis
Carey Christenson <falc...@adelphia.net> wrote:
> James,
> I most definetely aggree with you and SMEG!!! I
> wonder if Rudolphe Czuba would be interested in
> designing a USB 1.1 or 2.0 HUB that could attach lets
> say 2 to 4 items at a time. Any thought on this would
> be good time invested.
that's all well and good - but in order to make use of the USB ports,
you're going to have to make USB drivers to go with them. A digital
camera one might not be too hard, but getting ones for printers is going
to be a lot tougher.
--
Dan Dreibelbis, Guitar Nerd - Better Living Through Home Recording
song #5 - "Cranked Old Man" - now available
http://www.mp3.com/dan_dreibelbis
Carey Christenson
That is all well and good. But Phototip could be
easily adapted for digital cameras and I am sure that
HDDriver could be adapted for Hard Drives to use USB
ports on the DSP port of the Falcon. The only other
issue would be printer drivers for the DSP port/USB
port. We have a ton of talented programmers out there
that I am sure could do this without problems. Am I
wrong on that???
Pascal Ricard
in article <926a9946.03060...@posting.google.com> (comp.sys.atari.st),
Galen wrote on Tue 03-06-2003 12:58 (-0700):
> Looks easy enough, but what's a 7805?
MC7805CT is a 5 V regulator from Motorola.
Bye,
/Pascal/
lp
falc...@adelphia.net wrote on 6/3/03 7:02 PM:
> That is all well and good. But Phototip could be
> easily adapted for digital cameras and I am sure that
> HDDriver could be adapted for Hard Drives to use USB
> ports on the DSP port of the Falcon. The only other
> issue would be printer drivers for the DSP port/USB
> port. We have a ton of talented programmers out there
> that I am sure could do this without problems. Am I
> wrong on that???
Nope.
If we can get some heads together, like some people into "c".
Have them do some checking and find out what usb card is most widely
supported in the open source community. Determine what might be more easily
ported to mint. Before anyone has a tizzy, mint IS the most robust
OS and open OS we have. It's the best point of entry, and the quickest
point of entry into the world of USB. I also would suggest it be a pci card
and first be developed for the hades and milan, as they already have a
pci bios for such things. Then if a functional driver ever came out
of the project it could be adapted to other machines. It's already been
proven you can hang an isa card off the rom port.
Anyway, if we could agree on which card to start such a USB project with
I'd gladly run out and purchase it and mail it to Ozk at my cost, so he can
tinker with making a USB driver. I'm absolutely serious, but I will only
ship him a pci card for the clones.
--
Lonny Pursell http://www.q1.net/~atari/html/for_sale.htm
Carey Christenson
Thanks, for the support. I know alot of these
talented programmers as I have talked with several in
the atari community. I believe the biggest mountian
we have to climb is actually deciding on what card to
write the USB driver for. Once the USB driver is
written it really is just a matter of the software
recognizing that the USB port is there and making a
connection to do what it needs to do best. Which is
I/O. Hell, I would even support you in sending that
PCI card to OZK, and I dont even have a Hades or
Milan. Because I know in the end something would be
developed for the Falcon that would work also. Come
on guys lets bang our heads together and see what we
can do about this!!!!
Stephen Moss
"Carey Christenson" <falc...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:1054671974-...@adelphia.net...
> lp,
> Thanks, for the support. I know alot of these
> talented programmers as I have talked with several in
> the atari community. I believe the biggest mountian
> we have to climb is actually deciding on what card to
> write the USB driver for. Once the USB driver is
> written it really is just a matter of the software
> recognizing that the USB port is there and making a
> connection to do what it needs to do best. Which is
> I/O. Hell, I would even support you in sending that
> PCI card to OZK, and I dont even have a Hades or
> Milan. Because I know in the end something would be
> developed for the Falcon that would work also. Come
> on guys lets bang our heads together and see what we
> can do about this!!!!
>
The USB problem is one that will effect all Atari computer users
although developing a Falcon solution my be easiest due to its
hardware it is also a short sighted approach as the more Atari user
there are that can no longer use there computers because they can not
connect basic preiferals such as Mice, Printers and Joysticks the
smaller our community will become as some will decide it is no longer
worth the effort to continue using them.
I can't remember if it was on comp.sys.atari.st.tech or
comp.sys.atari.programmer but the USB problem was discussed there a
week or two back and someone has developed a USB card for their Atari
8 bit computer that runs of the cartridge port (as reported in the
January issue of My Atari) which would make it available for all Atari
computer owners. If you have not yet seen or heard of it follow the
link below.
http://www.strotmann.de/twiki/bin/view/APG/ProjUSBCart
If you still want to develope a Falcon only soultion you may find some
useful stuff there to get you started.
Stephen Moss
lp
sg...@eng.cam.ac.uk wrote on 6/4/03 3:29 AM:
> The USB problem is one that will effect all Atari computer users
> although developing a Falcon solution my be easiest due to its
> hardware it is also a short sighted approach as the more Atari user
> there are that can no longer use there computers because they can not
> connect basic preiferals such as Mice, Printers and Joysticks the
> smaller our community will become as some will decide it is no longer
> worth the effort to continue using them.
That situation applies equally to a clone user regardless of the number
of machines out there.
There's no firewire either, so would it be best to dump our machines?
I think most Atari users are not that quick to bail, and most would be
willing to wait for a driver and might agree the clones do offer a quicker
solution during the development stage.
The idea of only developing for clones is not the goal, the goal is to
get something USB related running, because currently we have zero
usb support. Once something is running on the clones the bulk of the work
is done. Moving it to other machines would be a lot easier at that point.
The falcon has dsp over a clone, otherwise I don't see where it would be
easier on a Falcon from a developers standpoint. The clones already
have a pci bios geared towards devices using IO hardware and a pci slot.
No adapter required.
> If you still want to develope a Falcon only soultion you may find some
> useful stuff there to get you started.
In this situation you also need some adapter hardware first.
So far only Ozk has expressed any interest in actually tinkering (codewise)
with the idea, unless I missed a post due to my kill file. ;-)
Also I think I know Ozk fairly well, if he gets his hands on a usb
card his tinkering would lead to a mint driver for the clones initially.
I'd bet money on that. ;-)
Anybody recommend a pci card yet, so I can get the ball rolling?
Peter Slegg
>
>When I saw Ozk's offer on the other discussion I was also considering sending
>him a pci USB card. Over here they cost about 20-20 Pounds which I would
>consider a good investment if we got a driver capable of working with some
>simple USB devices.
>
>I agree that a getting USB on a clone is the easiest route. I know that Falcon
>users don't want to be left out of this but a Falcon will need some hardware
>development before work can begin on the drivers.
>
>Hopefully Falcon users will appreciate that by using a clone work can begin on
>the drivers immediately.
>
>Also, Mint is the obvious choice and like Mint-net is could be ported to Magic
>afterwards.
>
>As for the choice of card, the latest standards do more work in the pci hardware
>and so place less load on the host cpu. This is probably a good idea since we
>are not using microwave ovens (2GHz cpu ;-)
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Peter
>
>PS. we had a discussion on .tech about this recently
>.
Peter Slegg
These are the three standards used by USB:
- UHCI (Intel, VIA ...)
- OHCI (Compaq/Microsoft/National)
- EHCI (USB 2.0)
I tried looking for a EHCI - USB 2.0 card One of my local hardware suppliers:
http://www.scan.co.uk/products/iocard.htm
lists this as being "most compatible" having an NEC chipset:
http://web6.scan.co.uk/Products/Info.asp?WPID=18489
Unfortunately the Manufacturers website is Flash.
This D-link card might be an alternative:
http://www.dabs.com/products/prod-info3-info.asp?&m=y&quicklinx=MBD
Regards,
Peter
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 20:15:44 -0400
>I also would suggest it be a pci card and first be developed for the hades
>and milan, as they already have a pci bios for such things. Then if a
>functional driver ever came out of the project it could be adapted to other
>machines. It's already been proven you can hang an isa card off the rom
>port.
This is like trying to reinvent the wheel (why ain't I surprised). The PCI
bios only comes in play when one uses a PCI card. For the Atari platform
IMO a SCSI => USB adaptor would be the best bet. These are widely available
from several manufacturers, they cost a little more, but the advantage is
that users of a Falcon, TT, Hades and Milan (with SCSI card) can use them.
People using ST's and STE's possibly will be able to use the adaptor with
the Link97.
All (?) what's needed is someone developing a OHCI compatible master driver,
the device specific drivers (mass storage, printers, MIDI) can be supplied
with/when the appropriate software/hardware is released/updated.
>Before anyone has a tizzy, mint IS the most robust OS and open OS we have.
>It's the best point of entry, and the quickest point of entry into the world
>of USB.
If it's so open then why doesn't it come with a OHCI driver and USB support as
standard? Once again someone needs to reinvent the wheel because the OS lacks
the IMO necessary support. With the direct result that before we know it, there
will be several incompatible drivers floating around....
And before anyone has a tizzy <grin>, I'm not having a go at MiNT this time, I
really mean it. Support for USB should be part of the OS, just like support for
the serial, parallel or even joystick is considered a must. USB is not going to
go away. If the commercial and closed OS is updated I wouldn't expect anything
less. The advantage is that developers don't have to reinvent the wheel, and
that all the drivers will be compatible. The programmers will be kept busy at
writing specific drivers (printers, scanners, cd-rw, DSL etc).
If for once the developers of the open OS *and* the developer of the closed OS
follow the standard without adding bells and whistles, then these drivers
should work on both OS's.... even Microsoft and Apple managed not to screw it
up.
It's time we learn from our mistakes. The multitude of incompatible internet
stacks with their large number of incompatible clients was caused because the
open and closed OS *both* didn't support it. If they would have done, then we
would have had better clients now. Remember Opera not wanting to port the
browser because there's no universal stack on Atari?
Cheers from Belgium
Dennis
--
____ ____ ____
/ __ \ / __ \ / __ \
/ / / / / / / / / /_/ /
/ / / / / / / / / ____/
/ /_/ / / /_/ / / /
/_____/ /_____/ /_/ Translations
der...@cix.co.uk
dennis....@gmx.net
xla...@cix.co.compulink.co.uk
http://www.cix.co.uk/~derryck/index.htm
Lonny
Sure there is, it's called mintnet.
And you didn't grasp one bit of the USB thread... and you have no concept
about the pci bios, or what the message was about. Not suprised.
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 16:07:53 -0500
>And you have no concept about the pci bios, or what the message was about.
Could someone here explain what the pci bios possibly has to do with a USB
driver for the Atari ST, TT & Falcon platform? Lonny obviously knows but
he's too lame to explain...
>And you didn't grasp one bit of the USB thread...
I didn't follow *your drivel* that's true... you don't seem to have grasped
a lot either from that thread, your contribution consisted mostly out of
disinformation and lots of bullshit.
>>Remember Opera not wanting to port the browser because there's no
>>universal stack on Atari?
>
>Sure there is, it's called mintnet.
No way mate! You're not going to drive me in yet another pointless and
meaningless discussion.
For what its worth: my newsreader which is *not* a mintnet client *never*
slips ups, unlike yours obviously does. When someone is in my killfile, he
remains there....
>Not suprised.
Me neither.... but then it takes one to know one, I'll take a quarter of
whatever you're on.
Lonny
> From: Lonny <lp...@coazter.com>
> Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 16:07:53 -0500
>
> >And you have no concept about the pci bios, or what the message was about.
>
> Could someone here explain what the pci bios possibly has to do with a USB
> driver for the Atari ST, TT & Falcon platform? Lonny obviously knows but
> he's too lame to explain...
You have the entire internet at your finger tips and you have to have
someone explain it to you. Why should I waste my time explaining it
to someone who doesn't wish to lift a finger to discover anything on
their own. It's been out for some quite some time, ever try google?
Find the page and read it yourself.
> >And you didn't grasp one bit of the USB thread...
>
> I didn't follow *your drivel* that's true... you don't seem to have grasped
> a lot either from that thread, your contribution consisted mostly out of
> disinformation and lots of bullshit.
You should know, you are an expert at it.
> >>Remember Opera not wanting to port the browser because there's no
> >>universal stack on Atari?
> >
> >Sure there is, it's called mintnet.
>
> No way mate! You're not going to drive me in yet another pointless and
> meaningless discussion.
> For what its worth: my newsreader which is *not* a mintnet client *never*
> slips ups, unlike yours obviously does. When someone is in my killfile, he
> remains there....
Better update it then. hehe
> >Not suprised.
>
> Me neither.... but then it takes one to know one, I'll take a quarter of
> whatever you're on.
A chair. I don't do drugs, but obviosuly you into it that scene.
Martin Byttebier
> From: Lonny <lp...@coazter.com>
> Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 16:07:53 -0500
>
>>>Remember Opera not wanting to port the browser because there's no
>>>universal stack on Atari?
>>
>>Sure there is, it's called mintnet.
>
> No way mate! You're not going to drive me in yet another pointless and
> meaningless discussion.
Hmm, you still refuse to see the truth it seems. MiNT-net is indeed the
only Universial Stack on Atari. IIRC Iconnect is not a stack at all so ...
It's about time you face the fact Magic is a dead end. It's only because a
kind Greec soul who make networking possible by means of magicnet (would
this be possible without MiNT-net?) magic is still around here and there.
The future is FreeMiNT with or without Aranym.
And if you like it or not the day you will use one of another Unix variant
is coming nearer and nearer. AFAIK the developement of programs for MacOS
9 or earlier is nihil. Everyone programs under MacOS X nowadays and
suprisently lots of new stuff is coming from the world you regard as an evil
world.
> For what its worth: my newsreader which is *not* a mintnet client *never*
> slips ups, unlike yours obviously does. When someone is in my killfile, he
> remains there....
Not always true. People can change e-mail addresses very easily noadays.
CU,
Martin
Carey Christenson
I love your web-site and I visit it quite often.
But to say that Mint and MintNET are the only options
for the Atari is very short sighted. I myself have
used regular TOS 4.0 and 1.6 and for the last 3 years
have been using Magic 6.x and Jinnee 2.5 with my
Falcon quite happily. Yes, I believe we should thank
that guy from Greece (THANKS Vassillis P.) for all his
hard work. Without it we as Magic users would not
have ethernet capabilities and cable modem access. I
personally love Magic and Jinnee because of its
extreme flexibility. I guess this is just one of
those debates that will go on till the end of time.
BUT, I believe we should channel this debate into
something constructive, like how to make Atari as
platform be more recognized than it is??? Think about
that for awhile before responding with hot-headedness
and sayings that MINT is the ONLY OS for Atari.
Just my two cents.
Carey Christenson
I would have to say that Dennis's idea of a SCSI to
USB adapter would be quite doable and easily done by
alot of our talented Atari enthusiasts. The only
problem would be drivers for the tons of USB devices.
BTW, Dennis have you recieved those e-mails that I
have sent you??? Let me know via this group or the
one that I had told you about in one of my e-mails. I
did have my ISP turn off my spam filter for now. How
about sending messages via fiffi or FTP??
Let me know.
Thanks,
Martin Byttebier
> Martin,
> But to say that Mint and MintNET are the only options for the Atari is
> very short sighted.
Not very short sighted, its simply the truth. Unless Magic author release
his brainchild as freeware, Magic is dead. Tell me who wants to buy a dead
OS. I surely not. I prefer a OS which is constantly under construction and
which opens a window to lots of exiting things once we'll have fast
machines which runs natively Freemint. I'm playing around with Linux since
a few days and I can tell you there are lots of very good items there.
> love Magic and Jinnee because of its extreme flexibility. I guess this is
> just one of those debates that will go on till the end of time.
Indeed once in a while such debates comes up and dies out. It's always
better then those Benny debates from that anonymous brainless guy.
I've MagicMac/Jinnee. On the 300 MHz G3 it's fast indeed, even faster then
my Hades but I must say I really don't like it. In my eyes
it's an OS without a soul. It give me a feeling of the OS is telling me
what to do. With MiNT (with or without MiNT-net) I have the opposite
feeling. I'm telling the OS what to do. I'm the boss not the OS.
> BUT I believe we should channel this debate into something constructive, like
> how to make Atari as platform be more recognized than it is??? Think
> about that for awhile before responding with hot-headedness and sayings
> that MINT is the ONLY OS for Atari.
Hmm, I don't think I've said that so extremely. I only said MiNT-net is
the Standard TCP/IP stack, which it is as Iconnect is strictly speaking
not a TCP/IP stack. The development of Magic seems to be halted, which
can't be said of MiNT, XaAES, Terra ...
Ok, I'll close my mouth now. I've said what I had to say.
Take care,
Martin
Carey Christenson
I did not mean to come across as bitchy or anything
of the sort. Matter of fact when these debates heated
or calm either way, come up. It kinda makes me wonder
why we dont channel the discussion towards some sort
of solution. You, Dennis, me and many,many, many
others all want one thing for our beloved Atari
Machines. To be useful and productive well into the
future. I am not a close minded person but I would
have to say that I have never used FreeMint or any
Mint deritive. Not to say that I would not, BUT I
would have to do alot more reading on it before
attempting to install MINT. I have heard horror
stories. But I believe with as much talented atari
users out there we could come up with some sort or
MULTI-OS computer that could run both OS's at the same
time without rebooting. Would this be possible??? We
have proven that multiple TCP/IP stacks can be used at
the same time. I use Iconnect and STING clients at
the same time thanks to MagicNet and Downloads are
very fast on my Falcon. At least 50 K/sec to 75 K/sec
on average. But it would seem that this debate would
go on for years unless we were all sitting around a
table drinking a brew an dicussing how this could be
done.
Just my two cents,
Thanks,
Carey Christenson
I would have to say that Dennis is right on the
concept of a SCSI adapter for USB. Could be done
relatively easy I would think. The only problem that
remains would be suitable drivers to run various USB
devices. BTW, Dennis have you been able to recieve
any of my past e-mails?? Let me know via this group
or the one that I listed in my e-mail to you.
Talk more later,
Thanks,
Lonny
If you go back and read the start of the thread the only thing
I originally suggested was that mint combined with a clone
was a fast track to usb support, in that sources already exist
in the linux world, and the pci bios is a huge head start as
it handles the low level i/o stuff with the pci cards. Then
adapt the idea to other atari's when it works.
A scsi adapter might work, but those are not very popular
and standard and I would bet a lot harder to find source code
for. Also you run the risk of data loss on your HD if something
should go wrong inside the driver. I repeat, I am not dismissing
the idea as crap, just that it would be harder and take longer to
implement. I personally would avoid a SCSI solution, but that is me.
The problem is people like dennis. I presented a perfectly
legit idea, and rather than contribute any solid logical comments
he'd rather call everything I say bullshit. Unlike dennis I do
contribute back to the community, with software, mailing lists, docs,
tips, see my website. Dennis on the other hand has made up his mind
mint is evil, unix is evil, and anyone who uses such things.
He refuses to listen to anything that makes sense. Everyone here
has the ability to look up old posts and see for yourself that
is the case. Seriously, what does Opera have to do with USB?
Absolutely nothing, dennis just likes to avoid the real issues
and cloud everything to the point where the original idea is lost.
As Martin has said, magic is a closed door, and without a 3rd party
hack it would be hopelessly lost. Development should not focus on
such an OS, that's simply a logical conclusion. No OS is perfect,
however since magic has been retro fitted to be mintnet compatible
you can conclude only one thing. Development should start with mint
and trickle the other direction. It's painfully obvious mintnet has set
the standard for networking or magicnet would not exist.
I still am willing to send ozk a pci usb card if someone could help
me research the best one to go with, but it looks as if this is not the
place for real discussions. I can see I need to move this to the Atari
clone mailing list. I don't think I'll bother with this thread again
and maybe down the road the 20+ users on the clone list will have usb
at least. Then later someone can port that maybe. Certain people here
are more concerned with beating down people and ideas for no reason.
I fully expect dennis to go off, that is his prefered nature for I am evil
cause I speak the truth. If anyone has a real discussion about usb as
I proposed then drop me a line via my e-mail box.
Kenneth Medin
Martin Byttebier wrote on Sat 05-07-2003 23:50 (GMT):
>Op Sat, 05 Jul 2003 23:03:30 +0000, schreef Carey Christenson:
>> But to say that Mint and MintNET are the only options for the Atari is
>> very short sighted.
>Hmm, I don't think I've said that so extremely. I only said MiNT-net is
>the Standard TCP/IP stack, which it is as Iconnect is strictly speaking
That simply is wrong. I just talked to Erik Häll yesterday about
implementing spam filters in his MyMail. The only problem he has got is
that _GlueSTiK_ does not implement a _STinG_ (STiK?) call for reverse
resolving of numeric IP addresses.
Note that Erik is a MinTNET user himself on his Hades but because there
is no standard IP stack has problems with his program. As there are too
many STinG/STiK users he just can't make it a native MinTNET client.
This is a bad situation with more than one stack on the Atari but to deny
it's existence will not make it any better.
--
Kenneth Medin <kenn...@tripnet.se>
Atari TT at home: http://atari.mine.nu/
<<Produced with 100% pure Atari equipment>>
Carey Christenson
I could not agree with you more on that issue. We
definetly DO NOT need more TCP/IP stacks for the atari
platform. What we need is a program that brings ALL
of these TCP/IP stacks together under one client which
is what MagicNet is capable of doing. Now I am unsure
if MagicNet can be used under MintNet to use STING and
Iconnect and Draconis clients. But it does work under
Magic and Jinnee for sure as I use both STING and
Iconnect clients on a daily basis. As stated earlier
it would be nice if MintNet users did have a bridge
for there OS so that they can use other clients as
well.
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 22:51:28 GMT
Hi Martin,
Long time, no see...
>Hmm, you still refuse to see the truth it seems. MiNT-net is indeed the
>only Universial Stack on Atari. IIRC Iconnect is not a stack at all so ...
>It's about time you face the fact Magic is a dead end. It's only because a
>kind Greec soul who make networking possible by means of magicnet (would
>this be possible without MiNT-net?)
Hmm, I'll try not to upset anyone...
I presume you know what "universal" means? If you do, then surely there's no
way you can call MiNT-Net the universal Atari stack...
>magic is still around here and there.
>The future is FreeMiNT with or without Aranym.
We've had this discussion before and it's obvious we both have a different
vision, to say that MagiC is still around "here and there" is like projecting
your dreams into reality, I put it to you that the largest group of Atarians
is still using MagiC. Not that it's of any importance really, MS Windows has
the largest market share while being the biggest crap...
>And if you like it or not the day you will use one of another Unix variant
>is coming nearer and nearer.
Anodyne has ported Mkisofs some time ago and proved that it is possible to
make a user friendly program that originates from the "other side". However,
they are the exception. Almost 99% of the so-called ported software needs a
big overhaul, you may feel happy using that crap, but I don't. Now, If it was
only me, you could say "who cares", but it must be obvious by now that there
are a lot more people out there who share my vision. You can deny this and
call all these people ignorant and dumb like our good friend Frederic Fouchet
once did, but that won't do, to make them switch...
>>AFAIK the developement of programs for MacOS 9 or earlier is nihil.
>>Everyone programs under MacOS X nowadays and suprisently lots of new stuff
>>is coming from the world you regard as an evil world.
When have I ever said it's an evil world? What I did say was that the "ports"
are crap, and I **do not** retract a word of it...
As for MaxOS X, does it surprise you to hear that I don't use it? Sure, I've
installed it, tried it, and then I trashed it :-)
Take a look at http://www.versiontracker.com to see how nihil the development
of OS9 apps really is.... when it comes to creating marketing hype, Apple
doesn't have to learn lessons, IMO they're masters at it. There are more or
less 25 million Mac users, according to Apple there are now 6 million OS-X
users, in my book that's less then 25%. A softwarehouse or developer who's
stupid enough to ignore those 18 million "stubbern" OS9 users needs his head
examined.
>> For what its worth: my newsreader which is *not* a mintnet client *never*
>> slips ups, unlike yours obviously does. When someone is in my killfile, he
>> remains there....
>
>Not always true. People can change e-mail addresses very easily noadays.
True, but I haven't changed my address in at least three years. Let's say that
the above quote was to tease Lonny. He publicly announced that he has put me
in his killfile (obviously he doesn't seem to like the right to free speech,
different opinions and visions), but whenever it suits him he replies to my
posts, in my book that's hypocritical.
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 23:50:58 GMT
Hi Martin,
>> But to say that Mint and MintNET are the only options for the Atari is
>> very short sighted.
>
>Not very short sighted, its simply the truth. Unless Magic author release
>his brainchild as freeware, Magic is dead. Tell me who wants to buy a dead
>OS. I surely not.
Hmm, when is a OS truly dead? Following your logic it's dead when development
is halted... I haven't seen a official statement so far from neither ASH nor
from the author declaring it's dead. You assume it's dead, but that ofcourse
could turn out to be wishfull thinking... but for the sake of this discussion
let's assume that it's truly dead, so what? Me and a number of other people
enjoy using it. Once it's installed and properly configured, one never has to
bother and/or even look at it again. Knowing that it's running and doing its
thing is all I care about really. Except for some MiNT-specific stuff which
doesn't run under TOS either I can run everything you run, not bad for an OS
which is declared dead by a bunch of people, hey ?
TOS died some 10 years ago, so what? Except for multitasking specific apps it
will run almost all our software. IMO a OS is dead when there's no one out
there using it anymore, and that won't happen overnight.
>I prefer a OS which is constantly under construction and which opens a
>window to lots of exiting things once we'll have fast machines which runs
>natively Freemint.
"once we'll have fast machines".... don't tell me you are in the same corner
as Jared Falvo and all of a sudden are a "believer" also !!! The Milan040 was
the last clone, and we all know the reason why it failed... only a very small
portion of the Atari users spend money on hardware, the biggest group however
doesn't want to and probably never will. It's always been like that and it is
also one of the many reasons Atari went down....
And yes, I prefer using a OS which is still being developed also, how could
anyone possibly not agree? The author of MagiC is working hard on MagiC X,
let us assume for a moment that development for the Atari version has not
come to an end, then I'm 100% convinced that the next version will benefit
from the development of the OS X version, and that is a good thing... right?
>I've MagicMac/Jinnee. On the 300 MHz G3 it's fast indeed, even faster then
>my Hades but I must say I really don't like it. In my eyes
>it's an OS without a soul. It give me a feeling of the OS is telling me
>what to do. With MiNT (with or without MiNT-net) I have the opposite
>feeling. I'm telling the OS what to do. I'm the boss not the OS.
Oh boy....
The reason why you don't like MagiC is exactly the same reason why I don't
like MiNT. Whenever I run MiNT I have the impression that I spend more time
fiddling with the OS then actually doing something usefull. We both seem to
have a different perception about working with an OS. I like using an OS which
does whatever it's supposed to do and let me get on with whatever it is I
wanna do, while you on the other hand like to control the OS and know exactly
what it's doing...
>I only said MiNT-net is the Standard TCP/IP stack, which it is as Iconnect
>is strictly speaking not a TCP/IP stack. The development of Magic seems to
>be halted, which can't be said of MiNT, XaAES, Terra ...
.... If Iconnect is not a stack, then what on earth is it? And how do I
manage to get online without using a stack? But let's not argue about it, I'm
convinced that someone else will <grin>.
I never said that Iconnect is the standard stack on Atari, there are simply
not enough people using it... STiK/STiNG is the most widely used stack on
this platform, it's also the only one which can run on *all* the OS's, so if
a stack deserves to be called the standard I presume that's the one... Don't
interprete this the wrong way: I'm not saying that STiK/STiNG is the best
stack on this platform, but then something doesn't have to be superior to be a
standard.... Betamax vs VHS, USB vs Firewire, MS vs Apple or MagiC vs MiNT are
shiny examples. When the majority prefers or is forced to use a certain brand,
system or whatever it automatically becomes a standard...
>> love Magic and Jinnee because of its extreme flexibility. I guess this is
>> just one of those debates that will go on till the end of time.
>
>Indeed once in a while such debates comes up and dies out. It's always
>better then those Benny debates from that anonymous brainless guy.
This reminds me of the "good times", I know some people here hated the so-
called OS wars, but compared to the posts I've been downloading the last
couple of months, I would say, give me a OS-war tomorrow :-)
Anything is better then this!! Most of the posts in the OS-thread contained
at least a couple of lines with info, now I have to be content reading stuff
about a guy who doesn't trust his wife and thinks he's the recarnation of a
Wolf!! Talking about being on topic in a Atari newsgroup...
About Ben Smith.... I always objected to his spam in this newsgroup, whatever
is happening now, IMO he had it coming ...
IIRC then the anonymous poster made it very clear that he would stop posting
when the weekly spam stops. So it's very simple really, Ben stops posting his
weekly rubbish here, the anonymous poster stops posting also.... it's a win -
win situation for everyone...
>Ok, I'll close my mouth now. I've said what I had to say.
Oh, but I haven't
In fact, I can go on for hours on end :-)
You wrote:
>I prefer a OS which is constantly under construction and which opens a window
>to lots of exiting things
This little sentence should be good enough to have a discussion that lasts at
least the whole summer long :-)
Let's take MiNT as an example... I always have to read that it's still under
development. I would expect from such an OS that new versions come with stuff
that sets it apart from the competition (MagiC), two years have passed since
the last update of MagiC, in that time MiNT has been upgraded twice. You'll
probably say that I'm biased but what on earth have the MiNT-developers been
doing? AFAIK nothing significant has been added to it...
IMO a modern OS should come with drivers, drivers for USB, ethernet, graphics
etc... this has two advantages: the drivers will automatically be the standard
to follow and the programmers don't have to reinvent the wheel. This thread
originally was about a USB driver for this platform, since both MiNT nor MagiC
support USB natively, individual programmers have to cater for it... and the
same applies to stuff like ethernet, graphic cards or even a hard disk driver,
our OS's don't support them, so programmers developed custom drivers, and we
the users now have a choice between a multitude of incompatible drivers.
Surely, this is a situation which is not recommendable...
MiNT may have a window to lots of exiting things, but until now, that window
has been kept firmly shut by the developers. It's about time they open it...
Well Martin, if the above isn't good enough to spark of a lot of posts and
start at least a little war, then I'll come back next week and use some
stronger words :-)
"Trolling" is the correct expression IIRC....
CU
Steve Sweet
> >> But to say that Mint and MintNET are the only options for the Atari is
> >> very short sighted.
> >
> >Not very short sighted, its simply the truth. Unless Magic author release
> >his brainchild as freeware, Magic is dead. Tell me who wants to buy a
dead
> >OS. I surely not.
>
> Hmm, when is a OS truly dead? Following your logic it's dead when
development
> is halted... I haven't seen a official statement so far from neither ASH
nor
> from the author declaring it's dead.
I'd call an OS dead when its released in to the public domain or GPL..
Oh yeah!, i just described MiNT
--
Regards, Steve. S.
Tea Please, Hot!, 3 Sugars, Coconut Cookies, & no friggin war stories!!.
NSPIRIT
is
> > >> very short sighted.
> > >
> > >Not very short sighted, its simply the truth. Unless Magic author
release
> > >his brainchild as freeware, Magic is dead. Tell me who wants to buy a
> dead
> > >OS. I surely not.
> >
> > Hmm, when is a OS truly dead? Following your logic it's dead when
> development
> > is halted... I haven't seen a official statement so far from neither
ASH
> nor
> > from the author declaring it's dead.
>
> I'd call an OS dead when its released in to the public domain or GPL..
>
> Oh yeah!, i just described MiNT
Oups, somebody lieed to me ?
Linux was dead from the start ? :P
Steve Sweet
8~)
I love a flame war, oh the smell of napalm in the morning!. 8~)
--
Regards, Steve. S.
Tea Please, Hot!, 3 Sugars, Coconut Cookies, & no friggin war stories!!.
---
Steve's Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.498 / Virus Database: 297 - Release Date: 09/07/2003
lp
nsp...@wanadoo.fr wrote on 7/8/03 5:01 PM:
>> I'd call an OS dead when its released in to the public domain or GPL..
>>
>> Oh yeah!, i just described MiNT
Due to poor quoting I am not sure who made this comment.
I suspect dennis. rotfl!!!!
This is like the comedy channel, no wonder sinflap gets a kick
reading this stuff. hehe
<disclaimer>
That comment does not reflect the views of the rest of this group,
only the individual that wrote it.
</disclaimer>
Martin Byttebier
First of all, please adjust your newsreader. It managed to break down the
quotes into something unreadable.
Secondly, adjust your signature separator. It's broken.
See <URL:http://www.meen.co.uk/oefix/>
> I'd call an OS dead when its released in to the public domain or GPL..
>
> Oh yeah!, i just described MiNT
Hmm, you described not only MiNT but also Linux, NetBSD, FreeBSD, Unix,
etc.. used by millions. Not bad for dead OS's.
CU,
Martin
Steve Sweet
"lp" <g...@basic.net> wrote in message news:BB30D2EB.E3E%g...@basic.net...
> in article befbga$f9p$1...@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr, NSPIRIT at
> nsp...@wanadoo.fr wrote on 7/8/03 5:01 PM:
>
> >> I'd call an OS dead when its released in to the public domain or GPL..
> >>
> >> Oh yeah!, i just described MiNT
> Due to poor quoting I am not sure who made this comment.
> I suspect dennis. rotfl!!!!
Due to your being brain dead you didnt realise it was me!, doh!, i think i
can safely say that dennis does not accept your apology!
> This is like the comedy channel, no wonder sinflap gets a kick
> reading this stuff. hehe
Yeah right, what with all them idiots that cant read!!. Doh!
--
Regards, Steve. S.
Tea Please, Hot!, 3 Sugars, Coconut Cookies, & no friggin war stories!!.
---
Steve's Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.498 / Virus Database: 297 - Release Date: 08/07/2003
Steve Sweet
> Op Tue, 08 Jul 2003 18:51:03 +0000, schreef Steve Sweet:
>
>
> First of all, please adjust your newsreader. It managed to break down the
> quotes into something unreadable.
It left here just fine.
> Secondly, adjust your signature separator. It's broken.
> See <URL:http://www.meen.co.uk/oefix/>
Er!, in what way
> > I'd call an OS dead when its released in to the public domain or GPL..
> >
> > Oh yeah!, i just described MiNT
>
> Hmm, you described not only MiNT but also Linux, NetBSD, FreeBSD, Unix,
> etc.. used by millions. Not bad for dead OS's.
8~)
--
Regards, Steve. S.
Tea Please, Hot!, 3 Sugars, Coconut Cookies, & no friggin war stories!!.
---
Maurits van de Kamp
> is what MagicNet is capable of doing. Now I am unsure
> if MagicNet can be used under MintNet to use STING and
> Iconnect and Draconis clients.
Draconis and Sting clients can run under MiNTnet without using Iconnect
in between them. And I think that there was also an Iconnect bridge but
I'm not sure because all Iconnect clients happen to be programs I try to
stay away from. ;)
Apart from that, keep in mind that MiNTnet is also a standard in that it
has a unix based network interface which makes porting internet
software from other platforms easier. This is why MiNTnet had NFS and
Samba before Sting did. :)
Maurits.
Maurits van de Kamp
> I'd call an OS dead when its released in to the public domain or GPL..
>
> Oh yeah!, i just described MiNT
Funny, MiNT has gone through most of it's major developments while being
dead according to your definition (from 1.12.4 on), and also got the
largest userbase after "dying". Linux is also dead according to this
definition, and has been from the start. Looking at its success, I'd say
you're free to have your own definitions of a dead os but it doesn't
look like a very useful definition.
Maurits.
Maurits van de Kamp
> I'd call an OS dead when its released in to the public domain or GPL..
>
> Oh yeah!, i just described MiNT
I forgot to mention one thing in my previous post: What do you think is
more dead:
1. An OS released to GPL which has an active group of volunteers working
on it (is any one of you anti-mint-flamers actually aware of recent
developments or are you basing your opinions on a multitos disk you got
with your Falcon?)
or:
2. An OS which can and may only be developped by one commercial company
who seems to have no intention of doing so.
Personally I'd say Magic could only become less dead by becoming GPL'ed.
Maurits.
Martin Byttebier
> Hi "Martin Byttebier"
>
>> Op Tue, 08 Jul 2003 18:51:03 +0000, schreef Steve Sweet:
>>
>>
>> First of all, please adjust your newsreader. It managed to break down
>> the quotes into something unreadable.
>
> It left here just fine.
Because you use non RFC-compliant newsreader it looks fine for you but for
those who use a good reader your messages are sometimes very hard to read.
Drop Outlook Express in the dustbin (where it belongs) and get a good
reader. You will do others and yourself a good favour.
>
>> Secondly, adjust your signature separator. It's broken. See
>> <URL:http://www.meen.co.uk/oefix/>
>
> Er!, in what way
Read the pages I mentioned. It's all explained.
CU,
Martin
Steve Sweet
> >> First of all, please adjust your newsreader. It managed to break down
> >> the quotes into something unreadable.
> >
> > It left here just fine.
>
> Because you use non RFC-compliant newsreader it looks fine for you but for
> those who use a good reader your messages are sometimes very hard to read.
> Drop Outlook Express in the dustbin (where it belongs) and get a good
> reader. You will do others and yourself a good favour.
I suggest you take up this complaint with Billy boy gates.
> >> Secondly, adjust your signature separator. It's broken. See
> >> <URL:http://www.meen.co.uk/oefix/>
> >
> > Er!, in what way
>
> Read the pages I mentioned. It's all explained.
I'll skip that thankyou, its compliant with a few billion other like users.
JagCube
You state using the DSP port for a USB.... how about make a cart that
uses that NOT used
cart-slot that's always sitting there :) (unless of course you have a
NIC card plugged into it)
Which in that case, I don't see why you couldn't get some sort of
multi-cart bay or something and do both?!
Maybe that's a stupid idea, but? Just an idea regardless.
Also, does the cart not have access to CPU takeover and possible
memory takeover as well?
I always thought it would be more ideal to have a new processor and
maybe more ram (laptop ram?) in a cart and you could just plug it in
the side of your Falcon (for us Original users!)
Hades and Milan would disagree, but there's always a solution that
could be made for both
right?
Just my opS!
Clint Thompson
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 20:28:07 +0000 (UTC)
Hi Steve,
>> Due to poor quoting I am not sure who made this comment.
>> I suspect dennis. rotfl!!!!
>
>Due to your being brain dead you didnt realise it was me!, doh!, i
>think i can safely say that dennis does not accept your apology!
Spot on.... now how shall we punish that idiot? My first thoughts were
to send the troops in, but reflecting on the idea I dismissed it in
favour for a more suitable punishment. I think it's best if we send him
to the ASH reform bootcamp. Where he will receive a completely free full
MagiCal brainwash... once that he stopped rolling on the floor laughing
ofcourse.
After that brainwash hopefully he'll have learned that Outlook Express is
not an Iconnect client and in addition he also will have learned that ASH
Mailer always quotes correctly. It wouldn't even surprise me if they
teach him the proper way to quote according to the RFC rules, that's
something he hasn't grasped either so far. And they might even let him in
on a secret concerning a certain low level USB shared library that's in the
pipeline.
BTW Steve...
I was very surprised that you got away with your statement about MiNT,
it's incorrect. How does one call a piece of code that needs native TOS
to run and even uses some routines of it? An application, right? Oops I
just described MiNT...
MiNT is not just another day to day application ofcourse, technically
speaking I suppose we should call it a TOS-extension. Remember those long
threads about that other TOS-extension called NVDI? IIRC some of the most
"valued" members of this community went to great lengths explaining us that
a TOS extension is just a different word for dirty hack.
So here you have it: it's not a OS at all, but only a dirty hack. To be more
precise: an open source dirty hack. :-)
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 19:58:35 -0400
>Due to poor quoting I am not sure who made this comment.
You really are a fine piece of art Lonny. You haven't got the faintest
idea of how to quote properly yourself, every single posting from you
defies the RFC rules, and then you got the nerves to come in here and
complain!!! And don't blame it on your precious newsreader, that would
really make my day....
>I suspect dennis. rotfl!!!!
Sorry, it wasn't me :-(
In fact it was my brother in arms Steve. I've pointed out to Steve that
he mixed up some facts and set the record straight concerning MiNT (see
other post). You are a pityfull person Lonny, if you would put the same
energy into programming as you do in trying to provoke me, this platform
would benefit enormously.
>This is like the comedy channel, no wonder sinflap gets a kick
>reading this stuff. hehe
True, but then sinflap is an idiot who thinks this comedy channel is the
only one available on his Dell computer. Nobody is forcing you to watch
this channel, take your zapper and tune into:
alt.hipcrime.periphs.usb
alt.i-love.you-all.so-much
alt.i-think.therefore.i-dont.use.linux
alt.i-think.therefore.i-dont.listen-to.the-voices-in-my-head
uwo.comp.pine
alt.www.stupid-idiots.com
alt.my-ass-iza-itchy
alt.idiot.laughing-boy
comp.sources.unix
comp.sources.wanted
comp.software.extreme-programming
alt.wee.goaway.goaway.goaway
muc.lists.mint
alt.oldfarts
hannet.ml.pci
alt.why-is-this-shit-happening.to-my-ng
alt.support.troll-acceptance
alt.i.hate.myself.and.want.to.die
alt.idiots
alt.morons
alt.anyone.can.make.a.group
Unfortunately alt.sack.full.of.shit has been taken of air, but then I'm
convinced you'll be welcomed in the other channels with open arms just the
same. No need to thank me, I'm always on standby here to help a valued
member of this community.... :-)
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:41:11 +0200
Hi Maurits,
>This is why MiNTnet had NFS and Samba before Sting did. :)
Yes
MiNTNet was ahead of it's time, it had superior drivers and some amazing
clients when it was released, and then the music stopped all of a sudden.
In 2003 one would expect that MinTNet would have evolved further but what
has been improved and added to it the last couple of years?
You do know why STiNG was developed I presume?
>I'm not sure because all Iconnect clients happen to be programs I try to
>stay away from. ;)
You realise that CAB happens to be a Iconnect client I hope? I wish you
lots of luck and fun with Draconis or the beta Highwire while surfing the
web.
>Funny, MiNT has gone through most of it's major developments while being
>dead according to your definition (from 1.12.4 on), and also got the
>largest userbase after "dying". Linux is also dead according to this
>definition, and has been from the start. Looking at its success,
Success is very relative. What is the market share of Linux? You still
wanna call it a success?
Oh and another thing: there's a big difference between having Linux
installed on a computer and actually being a Linux user. Take me for
example: I have a full blown MiNT installed on the TT, but I don't think
anyone here would dare to call me a MiNT-user :-)
>I'd say you're free to have your own definitions of a dead os but it
>doesn't look like a very useful definition.
Indeed!! this ridiculous definition came about when someone took his
dreams for thruth and declared MagiC dead. I'd say that a OS is truly
dead when it's not used anymore. As long as there is a bunch of people
using a OS it's alive and kicking.
>I forgot to mention one thing in my previous post: What do you think is
>more dead:
>
>1. An OS released to GPL which has an active group of volunteers working
>on it (is any one of you anti-mint-flamers actually aware of recent
>developments or are you basing your opinions on a multitos disk you got
>with your Falcon?)
Just like success is very relative, so is a group of volunteers. It's not
the size of the group that is important but their input and knowledge. I
put it to you that one talented programmer can achieve more in one single
month then a group of volunteers in a whole year. At the risk of being
flamed indefinitely here I'll make an even more bold statement:
**************************************************************************
After having to read here for years about all that wonderfull GPL stuff
that would come to this platform warping us foreward I think it's about
time someone asks the 10 million dollar question...
*WHERE THE HELL IS IT?* Why is it that a bunch of socalled selfproclaimed
programmers after brainstorming for more then three years can't even manage
to port a lousy scanner or cd-rw driver? Do you truly expect me to believe
that all that hype is going to materialize on a blue monday? Sorry Maurits,
I don't believe in dreamers dreaming up dreams for other dreamers....
Enjoy reading the specs of a certain GPL'ed source, that's about all you
can do, the chances that that particular source ever becomes a usable
application on this platform are nihil.
Shit, the more I think of it, the more angrier and upset I get.. This
community has been split and teared apart by a group of people that
publicly announced that we had to move on. I have always questioned their
motives, and have been flamed for it many times. Well here we are at the
point of no return: that group of nitwits is still making lots of noise
and shoving a lot of hype down our throats. After almost three years I
think it's quite safe to stand up and declare the following: *NONE* of
those morons have the knowledge, capabilities and competence to bring the
dreams they've been dreaming up here to a good end. And yes they have the
right to defend themselves... but not with words anymore. The best way to
defend themselves and make a fool of me is to release all that wonderfull
stuff they've been promising for years on end. Am I really the only person
in this group who questions all their bullshit? Are Atari users really just
a bunch of dumb sheep dancing on the tunes some idiots with a distorted
reality view are making?
**************************************************************************
Here you have it Maurits.... my personal view and opinion :-) Considering
you are one of the 'believers" also I look foreward to the long list of
GPL'ed stuff that has been ported over and is used by the majority of Atari
users saying a thankfull prayer everyday. Oh, I'm even happy with a list of
native Atari apps that now have the GPL status and which are under constant
development, take QED for example, I can hardly believe my eyes seeing how
the development of that application is moving on.... it's difficult to keep
up with the never ending stream of updates, not to mention the overwhelming
lot of new features is has now...
Wish it was true, alas the thruth is somewhat different. It's just as dead
under GPL status as it was before. And I put it to you that's the case with
almost all the apps that now carry that status. When will the majority of
Atari users come to their senses and realise that GPL doesn't work for this
platform.
This is not the Linux platform, it would surprise me if there are more then
10.000 active Atari users left. Make a calculation and tell me, out of that
number of users, statistically speaking what is the number of programmers we
can expect. On almost every platform an estimated guess is 1 in 500. So
statistically speaking we should be glad with 20 competent programmers.
These 20 programmers are present, but where the hell do those odd other 150
come from? I have the impression that some people who can read a source file
and know how to use a compiler "think" they can stick the label programmer
on their heads as well... It's all fine by me, I don't judge someone by what
he says, what he contributes is the standard, unfortunately all I see are
words, nothing actually vapourizes, except for a lot more bullshit and even
more promises. Sorry Maurits that's not good enough...
>2. An OS which can and may only be developped by one commercial company
>who seems to have no intention of doing so.
They're not in a hurry, why would they be? The competition is still playing
catch up. None of the recent developments are earth shattering...
>Personally I'd say Magic could only become less dead by becoming GPL'ed.
You have the right to express your opinion, just like I have the right to
disagree with it. So here's another bold statement :
You seem to think that MagiC is being developed by a commercial company who
has a gang of fulltime programmers? The thruth is that MagiC is programmed
by one man, ASH happens to commercialise the OS, nothing more nothing less.
Think about what that single individual has achieved all on his own, now
take your precious group of volunteers and compare.... imagine a group of
volunteers who all have the abilities and competence of Andreas Kromke,
then you would have the right to brag about it. As it is now, I put it to
you that the developer of MagiC can, has and will achieve more on his own
then a group of hundred of your volunteers.... and yes I'm willing to pay
for Andreas Kromke his efforts. Paying for MagiC means I'm rewarding his
efforts, he's about the last CAPABLE programmer left on this platform, and
to me he's worth millions... the "other" side managed to get rid and/or
scare of almost all the commercial programmers, and what good did it do us?
Do you really think we moved on? I don't.... on the contrary.
Oh, one last thing: MagiC isn't dead, so don't look foreward to a funural,
I would suggest to prepare yourself for a party. You and some others might
get the surprise of your lives...
Let's hope nobody choked to death while reading this post, this community
is small enough as it is. And to anyone out there thinking of replying, may
I advise to read the post a couple of times and reflect on it? Is this a
troll instegated post? Or is it a post from someone who's been shouting the
same thing for years on end? Up until today hardly anyone wanted to listen,
when will the shells finally fall from their eyes, when will the misleaded
users finally come to their senses and realise they have little or nothing
to expect from the "wonderboys".
To all MiNT-users who think I have a go at them, I honestly don't. I'm not
targetting MiNT and MiNTNet at all, I'm targetting that group of losers in
here who feel superior and think they are special. I'm sick to death of
their bragging while they've got nothing to show for it. And rest assured,
I'm not the only one with these views, but unfortunately I'm about the only
one who can afford to express them in here.
I've been declared enemy number one in here a long time ago, I've tried to
be reasonable for quite some time, but reasoning doesn't work ....it can't
get any worser then this :-)
Cheers from Belgium
Dennis
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 11:12:13 -0500
>I still am willing to send ozk a pci usb card if someone could help
>me research the best one to go with, but it looks as if this is not the
>place for real discussions. I can see I need to move this to the Atari
>clone mailing list.
Since you're the self proclaimed USB expert and I am the moron I won't
bother explaining that there is no such thing as the "best USB" card, as
long as it's OHCI compatible (which 99.99 % of the cards are) ozk should
be just fine. Ozk if you are reading this.... get in touch with me. I have
a obsolete PCI-USB 1.1 card right here, you can have it. Lonny doesn't need
to do any "research" at all and on top of that we save him from making a
fool of himself in that mailing list. So it's clearly a win-win situation
for everyone.
BTW Lonny: I have a clone gathering dust here, before you know it, I might
bring it back to live and join that famous list. Kicking some life into it
and having long, sensible and heated discussions with you.
Now, if that isn't something to look foreward to.... ;-)
>As Martin has said, magic is a closed door, and without a 3rd party
>hack it would be hopelessly lost.
Here we go again.... hopelessly lost at what? One single feature which me
and a lot of other users do not use and need in the first place. Vasillis
didn't want to reinvent the wheel, unlike some people. He simply "ported"
MiNTNet improving it a little. You seem to forget that MiNT is hopelessly
lost also without MiNTNet coming to the rescue.
Tell me, is MiNTNet an original from scratch developed application or just
another port with some specific bells and whistles added? In my book your
precious MiNTNet is a ported program. I've just learned that ported stuff
is now being referred to as " a hack" here...
So here's the new definition of MagiCNet: it's an improved 3th party hack
based on a 2nd party hack. You do realise that calling MagiCNet a 3th
party hack doesn't do much justice to MiNTNet either I hope?
Vassilis or someone else for that matter could have reinvented the wheel
and wrote a MiNTNet clone from scratch, he's done the sensible thing if
you ask me and brought the two OS's a step closer. Let's put it this way:
thanks to MagiCNet some people who would have turned their back on this
platform, are still here, and in my book that's a good thing. You on the
other hand aren't bothered by this ofcourse, these people are MagiC users,
and we all know how you feel about people using MagiC don't we?
>I presented a perfectly legit idea, and rather than contribute any solid
>logical comments he'd rather call everything I say bullshit.
I call a horse a horse, and almost everything you "contributed" to that
particular thread is bullshit... I suggest to read my contribution again,
but this time unbiased and with an open mind. I presented a IMO perfect
legit idea also, which you've dismissed purely on the basis that it came
from me. But don't worry, I'll toss it up again sometime.
>Development should not focus on such an OS, that's simply a logical
>conclusion.
Logical? Sorry but I don't see any logic in that statement.
You want logic? Here's some logic to chew on:
If anyone out there ever succeeds at bringing USB to this platform he/she
should do all he possibly can to ensure that the drivers work on all the
OS's. USB on Atari should enable us to use mouses, scanners, printers and
other goodies.... and I strongly believe that USB should be available for
people using a 1040 under TOS as well. USB on Atari should *NOT* be OS
specific to begin with. And don't come telling us that this is impossible.
USB is coming to the Atari 8bit computers soon, is that ancient hardware
superior to ours ?
>No OS is perfect, however since magic has been retro fitted to be mintnet
>compatible you can conclude only one thing. Development should start
>with mint and trickle the other direction. It's painfully obvious
>mintnet has set the standard for networking or magicnet would not exist.
I thought we were talking about a USB driver? I don't know what you have in
mind but as the self proclaimed USB expert perhaps you could enlighten us a
little? What on earth has MiNTNet got to do with USB ? And believe it or
not but there are more people out there "networking" with STiNG then with
your precious MiNTNet.
BTW: MagiC hasn't been retro fitted in any way. Someone developed a MiNTNet
compatible hack for it, that's not quite the same thing is it?
>Seriously, what does Opera have to do with USB?
>Absolutely nothing, dennis just likes to avoid the real issues
>and cloud everything to the point where the original idea is lost.
Oh boy.... you take one sentence from my post, pull it completely out of
context and then start nagging about it. Surely you can do better then
that? Opera hasn't got anything to do with USB, just like MiNTNet hasn't
got anything to do with USB...
Oh, and talking about clouding things: the original idea was to bring USB
to the Atari platform, after you spoke your peace, the idea all of a sudden
changed into bringing USB to a PCI based clone running under MiNT. And to
sweeten it up a little, all the morons using a different OS and /or holding
on to original Atari hardware could look forward to *perhaps* "someone"
porting it over to their system....
Tell me Lonny, who's the real expert here in clouding things?
You know very well that there isn't a "someone" here that might "perhaps"
port it over. I've been waiting for years to see the first non-commercial
printer, scanner, CD-RW, graphic tablet, etc... driver appear ported by
"someone"... why would it be any different with USB?
>The problem is people like dennis.
I made promotion !!!
I used to be just a pain in the ****, but all of a sudden I've moved on,
I'm a problem now....
"people like dennis"... do you mean there are more like me in here? That's
the most refreshing news I've heard in a long time !!
>Unlike dennis I do contribute back to the community, with software,
>mailing lists, docs, tips, see my website.
I propose we start up a Lonny P. foundation, if everyone chips in a couple
of dollars, we might just have enough for a statue !!
But coming to think of it, we would have to start up a lot of foundations,
erecting statues all over the place. I know at least a dozen people in this
group who deserve a statue... In less then a year you're the second guy in
here who tells me he's special.... don't trip over your ego Lonny.
You really must hate me, am I on some sort of 10 most wanted people list?
You don't have the faintest clue about what I might do or not do for this
platform but that doesn't stop you to feel superior? I'm not a programmer
so my contributions are somewhat different to yours, let's put it this way:
I know who and how I helped people out over the years, and they know it as
well. The difference is that I don't come bragging about it in here. But if
everyone I helped out would send me a dollar, I could erect a statue for
myself :-)
But by all means keep on coding and contributing, you're doing very nice
things, just learn to be a little more modest... I know people who don't
participate in this group but do follow it. Some of these have done and
still do more for this community then the two of us put together. These
people who shall reamin anonymous deserve a statue, and sorry Lonny
compared to them your contributions are peanuts, you're not in the same
leage (yet), keep on trying...
Oh and the people regularly posting in CSAST are not the only remaining
Atari users, they are just a *small* part of the Atari community. There
are more or less 30 people on the atari clone list, some 1750 clones have
been sold.... think and chew on this for a minute, where are these users
and what is their preferred OS? Have you idea how many versions of
MagiCHades and MagiCMilan were sold? Who these people are and what they
use the clones for? These users aren't helped by your contributions at
all, but they do value my input from time to time.... but don't worry, in
here you're still mr.special.
>I fully expect dennis to go off, that is his prefered nature for I am
>evil cause I speak the truth.
You've made a study of my old postings, one thing you should have learned
from these is that I'm fairly consistent...
Your so-called thruth stretches as far as your nose. Take a very deep
breath and look around you. What I see depresses me deeply, and postings
like yours who try to devide whatever there's left of this platform into
good and evil are ridiculous. Forget the good old OS-wars, there aren't
enough soldiers left to fight anymore. All what's left are a couple of
generals, a few traitors, a dozen prisoners and one or two deserters....
like I said not enough to start a new war... sorry.
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 23:29:54 GMT
Hi Carey,
>I would have to say that Dennis's idea of a SCSI to USB adapter would
>be quite doable and easily done by alot of our talented Atari
>enthusiasts.
It's a logical choice... that kind of adapter is for sale at this very
moment. And it can be connected easily to every Atari ranging from the
modest ST to the TT model, it can be connected to the Hades also, but
the Milan users will have to fit a SCSI card, so they are the only ones
who don't benefit from this solution. I propose the Adaptec SCSI ==>
USB kit. The biggest advantage of this solution is that no additional
ROMport to PCI interface needs to be developed, we all know how long it
takes before a proposed development actually materializes on this
platform, don't we ?
Another option which is worth thinking about is the printer port, there
are adapters for this port readily available also, but these are even
less popular...
>The only problem would be drivers for the tons of USB devices.
True, but these drivers will need to be written anyway, regardless of
what kind of USB interface is used. As a matter of fact it doesn't make
one cent difference how a USB device is connected to the computer for
these drivers... those drivers are the so-called USB device drivers.
Explained very simply it comes down to this: the very first thing that
needs to be developed is a OHCI compatible master driver, call it some
sort of BIOS or even a library if you will. It's a software standard,
that is very well documented and also adopted by Microsoft and Apple.
And for once these two didn't screw it up, anyone calling himself a
programmer and who's worth his salt should be able to port the sources
and turn them into something workable for this platform.
The next thing that needs to be developed is the so called low level
driver (that's the driver Lonny is on about), and that driver is the
important factor in this discussion, it's the one that accesses the
interface... so before one can start developing the driver he/she has
to decide first what kind of USB interface is going to be used. I can
understand Lonny his logic.... he has a computer with PCI interface,
there are heaps of sources on internet regarding this subject and like
he pointed out there's a open source driver available for the PCI-card
interface waiting to be ported. So far, so good....
So why am I so against it? Let's say that I'm the realistic type and
have quite a good idea of the state this platform is in. Well, forget
all the hype and talk we've waded through the last couple of years and
look at what has actually been developed. There's a group of people
here that try to tell us that all the problems are going to be solved
by open source software, MiNT is the gateway to all this beauty.... the
truth however is somewhat different, because for some reason all that
wonderfull stuff doesn't really make it onto this platform. MinTNet for
example still hasn't got a DSL driver, although popoEthernet is very
well documented and the open source lies there ready to be ported...
that's just one example of things we're missing out on. Keeping this in
mind it'll be a small miracle if that low level driver for PCI cards
ever arrive onto this platform. We will need at leats a dozen miracles
before someone stands up and develops a *second* low level driver that
can talk to the interface used on the regular Atari hardware. Suppose
Lonny wouldn't have a computer with a PCI-interface, do you think he
would still be so much in favour to develop a driver for that one
first? I think not....
He's a programmer, he knows very well what's involved to accomplish
such a task, ask him what's going to happen if there doesn't stand up
someone who's capable to bringing that task to a good end... it's not
like this platform is flooded with talented programmers anymore, who
writes some code when they get bored on a long hot summer night....
Lonny is right when he says that with the SCSI based adaptor there's a
risk of data loss on the HD, but at least it's a universal adapter, and
*if* it ever gets written then the whole community can benefit from it
straight away. But let's see what he has to say about the printer port
adaptor.... that one shouldn't cause problems on the HD.
Anyway, once that the low level driver is written, you'll have a USB
bus connected that's recognised by the computer and ready to receive
input/output. And then it's time for stage three, the development of
USB specific drivers. You can't just attach a printer, scanner, CD-RW
etc to the bus and expect them to work. I have no idea who is capable
of providing these, but let's be optimistic, a miracle might happen
after all.
One last thing....
PCI has been around for a very long time... ever wondered why nobody
ever produced such an interface already? Ask NOVA why they stopped the
production of their graphic cards when ATI switched to PCI. I recollect
long threads about this subject in the German maus newsgroups... In a
nutshell: it's virtually impossible, call it another miracle if that
card ever makes it.
I'm not a religious inspired person, I don't believe in miracles.....
Steve Sweet
> BTW Steve...
> I was very surprised that you got away with your statement about MiNT,
> it's incorrect. How does one call a piece of code that needs native TOS
> to run and even uses some routines of it? An application, right? Oops I
> just described MiNT...
> MiNT is not just another day to day application ofcourse, technically
> speaking I suppose we should call it a TOS-extension. Remember those long
> threads about that other TOS-extension called NVDI? IIRC some of the most
> "valued" members of this community went to great lengths explaining us
that
> a TOS extension is just a different word for dirty hack.
> So here you have it: it's not a OS at all, but only a dirty hack. To be
more
> precise: an open source dirty hack. :-)
SO if its a TOS extension, and TOS is crap, then based on the weakest link
theory, MiNT is crap as its only as strong as the weakest link in the chain.
Steve Sweet
> BTW Lonny: I have a clone gathering dust here, before you know it, I might
> bring it back to live and join that famous list. Kicking some life into it
> and having long, sensible and heated discussions with you.
> Now, if that isn't something to look foreward to.... ;-)
If you had a clone you'd have to turn into an arrogant self-righteous
asshole, and then you wouldn't talk to any of us humans anymore.
Repeat after me 'Killfile', you'll need this phrase if your a clone-owner.
Carey Christenson
Long time NO hear from. Wondering what you been up
to and such. I agree with you 100 percent the SCSI
idea is probably the easiest solution for our
platform. So I guess Lonny would have to go out and
buy a SCSI card if he does not all ready have one in
his HADES. And as stated before there may be a risk
of DATA loss but if a good programmer made solid Low
Level drivers for the cards they may be able to put
precautionary code into the program that would protect
ALL hard drives attached to the system INCLUDING IDE
just in case it went that far. You dont have to
explain the Magic and Jinnee thing. I think from what
I have seen from Andreas K. is great so far and I
think people who think this OS is DEAD will be sadly
mistaken in due time. Dont pull out the kleenex
tissues yet people. Keep in touch, are you recieving
my e-mails OK???? I have recieved a few of yours but
not since the end of MAY. Let me know what you want
to do!!
Thanks,
lp
falc...@adelphia.net wrote on 7/12/03 3:49 PM:
> So I guess Lonny would have to go out and
> buy a SCSI card if he does not all ready have one in
> his HADES.
The Hades has a SCSI on the motherboard as well as EIDE.
No cards required. Don't forget scsi tends to be more troublesome,
with bus arbitration, and termination issues.
Good luck with that path if you can find someone
to do it.
Steve Sweet
"Dennis Vermeire"
> Unfortunately alt.sack.full.of.shit has been taken of air, but then I'm
> convinced you'll be welcomed in the other channels with open arms just the
> same. No need to thank me, I'm always on standby here to help a valued
> member of this community.... :-)
Valued member 'and' Lonny?.
--
Regards Steve
Rope me a sheep and I'll make it smile.
Martin Byttebier
> Why its the one and only...
>
> "Dennis Vermeire"
>
>> Unfortunately alt.sack.full.of.shit has been taken of air, but then I'm
>> convinced you'll be welcomed in the other channels with open arms just
>> the same. No need to thank me, I'm always on standby here to help a
>> valued member of this community.... :-)
>
> Valued member 'and' Lonny?.
LP is indeed a valued member of this group. Lonny do some useful things
for the Atari community which you and thelikes can't say at all. Lots of
blabla but that's all you (and soul mates) have to offer to this group.
For heaven sakes, try at least to say something useful instead of the
mindless words you usualy spit out.
TTFN,
Martin
Smeg
JagCube <Jag...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:83fbea98.03071...@posting.google.com...
Theres no problem with putting multiple memory mapped devices in the cart
port, as long as they all use different addresses so they can all play
nicely together. Also, they have to have very low power requirments or have
a seperate power supply.
I wouldnt bother with using it for CPU or memory expansion though, as the
cart port isnt a proper expansion bus, but rather a sub set of it. IIRC
there is only 64K or 128K of address space there, I cant remember exactly
but its not a lot, which makes it useless for that type of application. They
are useful for (small) ROM cartridges though, or you could theoretically
burn a different OS (a heavily modified TOS, or your own hash up ;-))
because TOS actually checks the cart port on boot up and can jump into code
thats contained there, or you can put several progams on the cart that can
be accessed from GEM as a virtual drive 'c' (lower case 'c').
An interesting hybrid would be to have a memory mapped USB chip here with an
Eprom mapped into the cart address space which would contain the executable
code to add new XBIOS routines for the USB host to whatever TOS version you
were running. That would be an almost universal driver from a low level
perspective. Then it would be a matter of some high level code that could
run under magic/mint/multitos/singletos whatever to use the hardware thats
actually plugged into the USB port.
Smeg.
lp
donotuset...@pandora.be wrote on 7/12/03 7:01 PM:
I had some usenet problems and ended up reading usenet with PINE via
telnet on a friends sgi minus the normal filters. I must say the
number of foul mouth posts from certain people was staggering. Needless
to say I'm back to my usually reader. They think it is funny or such
but in reality everyone I've ever discussed this with on IRC or ICQ
thinks these people are complete losers. I guess if that is their goal
to be interpreted that way, it is a forum perfect for that. They wouldn't
last 5 minutes on an IRC channel or in a mailing-list. Anyway thanks for
the kind words.
s...@atari.org
> To all MiNT-users who think I have a go at them, I honestly don't. I'm not
> targetting MiNT and MiNTNet at all, I'm targetting that group of losers in
> here who feel superior and think they are special. I'm sick to death of
> their bragging while they've got nothing to show for it. And rest assured,
> I'm not the only one with these views, but unfortunately I'm about the
> only one who can afford to express them in here.
> I've been declared enemy number one in here a long time ago, I've tried to
> be reasonable for quite some time, but reasoning doesn't work ....it can't
> get any worser then this :-)
Dennis, u are idiot.. Now, u are certified idiot....
lp
wrote on 7/13/03 4:53 AM:
hehe
Suggestion: If you have a problem with specific individuals then don't read
the posts or filter them out. Everyone here has the ability control what
they see to some degree. I understand newsie doesn't allow news filtering.
Gerhard Stoll
128 KByte
But there was a project in the magazin ST-Computer with have 1,5 MByte EPROM
and 384 KBybte RAM.
S> would be to have a memory mapped USB chip here with an Eprom mapped
The USBN9603 have a Seriel Interface Engine. This chip is used in the 8-Bit
USB Cartrige.
<http://www.strotmann.de/twiki/bin/view/APG/ProjUSBCart>
Gerhard
Steve Sweet
> To all MiNT-users who think I have a go at them, I honestly don't. I'm not
> targetting MiNT and MiNTNet at all, I'm targetting that group of losers in
> here who feel superior and think they are special. I'm sick to death of
> their bragging while they've got nothing to show for it. And rest assured,
> I'm not the only one with these views, but unfortunately I'm about the
only
> one who can afford to express them in here.
Thats coz your dog can type and take dictation.
> I've been declared enemy number one in here a long time ago, I've tried to
> be reasonable for quite some time, but reasoning doesn't work ....it can't
> get any worser then this :-)
I'm sure we can take it down a peg or two.
How many Commercial app's are available off the shelf that specify TOS and
Magic as an OS platform, and how many for Mint and Linux.
Joakim Högberg
> Op Sat, 12 Jul 2003 21:41:03 +0000, schreef Steve Sweet:
> > Valued member 'and' Lonny?.
>
> LP is indeed a valued member of this group. Lonny do some useful things
> for the Atari
I can think of very few people that would not second that.
/Joakim
Michael Schwingen
Gerhard Stoll <Gerhar...@b.maus.de> wrote:
>
>The USBN9603 have a Seriel Interface Engine. This chip is used in the 8-Bit
>USB Cartrige.
><http://www.strotmann.de/twiki/bin/view/APG/ProjUSBCart>
That chip is only a USB node device, unless someone did some really neat
tricks, it can not be used as a USB host controller (which you need if you
want to attach mice, disks, etc.). If you want to attach the ST as a USB
device to a PC which is used as the host, then that chip would be fine.
If you really want USB host support, better get a chip that is designed to
be used as a USB host and that handles some of the tasks in hardware.
cu
Michael
Steve Sweet
> > Why its the one and only...
> >
> > "Dennis Vermeire"
> >
> >> Unfortunately alt.sack.full.of.shit has been taken of air, but then I'm
> >> convinced you'll be welcomed in the other channels with open arms just
> >> the same. No need to thank me, I'm always on standby here to help a
> >> valued member of this community.... :-)
> >
> > Valued member 'and' Lonny?.
>
> LP is indeed a valued member of this group.
He's a snivelling twat who only sticks his head up to killfile people.
> Lonny do some useful things for the Atari community which you and thelikes
can't say at all.
So perhaps you'd like to list my Atari community efforts and give them
score.
> Lots of blabla but that's all you (and soul mates) have to offer to this
group.
> For heaven sakes, try at least to say something useful instead of the
> mindless words you usualy spit out.
Where its warranted i will.
I've made efforts to chat with him on another common subject and got totally
blanked, How is your Probe Lonny?.
Frederic Fouche
> >I'm not sure because all Iconnect clients happen to be programs I try to
> >stay away from. ;)
>
> You realise that CAB happens to be a Iconnect client I hope? I wish you
> lots of luck and fun with Draconis or the beta Highwire while surfing the
> web.
CAB is not a "Iconnect" client per se.
CAB is a html browser/reader, with option to have plugin for connectivity.
Happens to work with mintnet, iconnect, stik whatever.
> Success is very relative. What is the market share of Linux? You still
> wanna call it a success?
ouch, please check your numbers before talking about linux market share.
>
> Enjoy reading the specs of a certain GPL'ed source, that's about all you
> can do, the chances that that particular source ever becomes a usable
> application on this platform are nihil.
hm did you check what extra apps are available on atari because of
GPL/open src?
few example:
mp3 players
gcc!
POV
doom
perl
samba
ghostscript
etc. (the list is indeed very long)
If it wasn't for GPL, we wouldn't have half of the progs available on
atari (any OS).
Either ungrateful or ignorant.
> number of users, statistically speaking what is the number of programmers we
> can expect. On almost every platform an estimated guess is 1 in 500. So
> statistically speaking we should be glad with 20 competent programmers.
> These 20 programmers are present, but where the hell do those odd other 150
> come from? I have the impression that some people who can read a source file
> and know how to use a compiler "think" they can stick the label programmer
> on their heads as well... It's all fine by me, I don't judge someone by what
> he says, what he contributes is the standard, unfortunately all I see are
> words, nothing actually vapourizes, except for a lot more bullshit and even
> more promises. Sorry Maurits that's not good enough...
You have your own definition of programmer.
Some people writing a few html line are also considered programmers.
Irrelevant.
> >2. An OS which can and may only be developped by one commercial company
> >who seems to have no intention of doing so.
>
> They're not in a hurry, why would they be? The competition is still playing
> catch up. None of the recent developments are earth shattering...
hmmm beg your pardon?
Playing catch up?
You're kidding right?
where's the security in magic? where's the file locking capability?
Where's the multiuser experience? where's the memory protection?
Where's the remote display? where's everything?
Where's process prioritization?
I believe there's a lot of work still, and you have the balls to say "the
competition is still playing catch up".
Dang! ignorance, or mental retardation?
Maurits van de Kamp
Sorry your enourmously long rant was so full of stuff that didn't even
remotely have anything to do with what I said that I can't be bothered
to quote it all and reply to every detail that sparks a reaction in me,
because I'd end up with a posting twice as long and I doubt anyone would
read it. :)
Just a few points to clear out the biggest misunderstandings.
1. I am not denouncing Andreas Kromke for his great work on Magic and
the fact that he wants money for it. I'm just saying that in a community
as small as it is (as you rightfully point out), an os that is developed
by volunteers has more of a chance than an os that needs commercial backing.
2. I'm not flaming you for using Magic. I'm getting tired myself of MiNT
being portraied as a difficult-to-use silly knot of obscure software
only used by freaks. It's clear that you haven't been watching for a
while, which also answers your other question "what has been developped
lately"? Well, the thing that mostly needed development in MiNT: Easy
installment. RPM handling was a great step, and now with several easy
bootstrappers around, installing and configuring MiNTos to a fullblown
Unix setup is a breeze even for newbies. Sure development of MiNT itself
is slow but we did move on a few versions. Has Magic been so busy
developping? What new functionality has been added in recent years? As
far as I can see, only stability improvements, something that MiNT+N.AES
hardly needed in the first place.
Still, loads of smaller updates have taken place in the MiNT kernel, if
you want to know what read the changelog, and if you want to keep up to
date join the MiNT list.
3. Remember I left the Atari-NL mailinglist after a discussion like this
with you? :) As you (and apparantly only you) know, I didn't leave
because of the discussion itself (which I enjoyed because most of it was
quite in-depth) but because other people of the list who were telling
both of us that an Atari list shouldn't be about modern stuff, only
about tos 1.00 issues and how to copy st games. So, I just wanted to add
I'm glad we can talk about modern-day st use, and I still consider you a
friend :)
Maurits.
Maurits van de Kamp
>>>stay away from. ;)
>>
>>You realise that CAB happens to be a Iconnect client I hope? I wish you
>>lots of luck and fun with Draconis or the beta Highwire while surfing the
>>web.
>
>
> CAB is not a "Iconnect" client per se.
> CAB is a html browser/reader, with option to have plugin for connectivity.
> Happens to work with mintnet, iconnect, stik whatever.
Correct. In fact, CAB started as offline browser. The first network
layer it supported was STiK. Then came MiNTnet(!!), and iConnect was the
last layer it supported.
Apart from that, yes Dennis I'm staying away from CAB because it sucks
mammoths. In its bug/functionality-ratio it's even worse than Explorer
and Netscape, which is quite bad. So I use my Mac for browsing (Chimera).
Highwire is quite promising and actually still under active development.
It is incomplete, but everything that IS complete works way better than
CAB. Just a bit more development and I might start using it seriously.
Maurits.
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 23:01:53 +0200
Hi,
>>I'd call an OS dead when its released in to the public domain or GPL..
>>
>>Oh yeah!, i just described MiNT
>
>Oups, somebody lieed to me ?
>Linux was dead from the start ? :P
Yes, they did. They threw away the baby and kept the afterbirth. It's very
difficult to put any form of live in that...
BTW: this is a Atari newsgroup, Linux is off topic here ;-)
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 19:49:29 GMT
Hi Carey,
>Keep in touch, are you recieving my e-mails OK????
Yep, about 10 so far, in both mailboxes.
I've mailed several replies and they didn't bounce back...
>Let me know what you want to do!!
Get another ISP, the one you've got now clearly hasn't got a clue what
he's doing. Once that "super computer" arrives, you'll need to change
anyway... Ask them if they lifted the filter on *incoming* mails, I have
the impression that they overlooked this.
If all fails, I'll construct a new emailaddress, the same as usual but
without the "." 's. But hold on till wednesday evening, I need some time
to set it up and check if it works correctly ;-)
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 17:31:59 +0000 (UTC)
Hi Steve,
>>BTW Lonny: I have a clone gathering dust here, before you know it, I might
>>bring it back to live and join that famous list. Kicking some life into it
>>and having long, sensible and heated discussions with you.
>>Now, if that isn't something to look foreward to.... ;-)
>
>If you had a clone you'd have to turn into an arrogant self-righteous
>asshole, and then you wouldn't talk to any of us humans anymore.
Well Steve, the problem is that I actually do have a clone... so it's a bit
of a dillemma. I can either bring it back to life and risk being turned into
something that resembles Lonny or just leave it like it is.
No... on second thoughts I rather stay human :-)
>Repeat after me 'Killfile', you'll need this phrase if your a clone-owner.
No way, I believe in free speech even tough I'm not an American.
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 18:58:34 -0500
Hi Frederic,
>>Success is very relative. What is the market share of Linux? You still
>>wanna call it a success?
>
>ouch, please check your numbers before talking about linux market share.
An estimated 7%.
And yes I realise that those 7% represent millions of users. I would not
want to feed them... but I certainly wouldn't want to feed those other 93%
ignorant people either.
>>Enjoy reading the specs of a certain GPL'ed source, that's about all you
>>can do, the chances that that particular source ever becomes a usable
>>application on this platform are nihil.
>
>hm did you check what extra apps are available on atari because of
>GPL/open src?
>few example:
>
>mp3 players
>gcc!
>POV
>doom
>perl
>samba
>ghostscript
>etc. (the list is indeed very long)
Here, we go again... from previous discussions you know very well what I
ment. Yet you always refer to same things. It's probably coincidence but
that list contains hardly anything which isn't already available for this
platform be it shareware, freeware or commercial ?
gcc! : are you gonna write the missing libs ? :-)
Mp3 players: yeah right, my TT just loves playing mp3's, AFAIK there's a
very good alternative available: Aniplayer.
POV: oh boy, this takes me back some years... I think it was ported before
both MagiC and MiNT existed... there are a couple of very good commercial
alternatives around.
Doom: I'm not into games anymore, and even if I was, I wouldn't really
call that example a Atari game. Just look at the hardware that's needed,
so like usual it's a port for the minority of the users.
perl: OK, I give you that one..., although I don't call that example
exactly something which will be used by the majority of people here.
samba: and that one as well :-)
ghostscript: AFAIK the development of ghostscript for Atari is dead. When
has it last been updated? *AND* it needs an update. Not that it matters
much really, Ultrascript is just as good and lots faster, but Ghostscript
is a good example that GPL isn't all you make it out to be. When no one
continues the development, it's as dead as software which doesn't carry
the GPL tag.
>You're kidding right?
>
>where's the security in magic? where's the file locking capability?
>Where's the multiuser experience? where's the memory protection?
>Where's the remote display? where's everything?
>Where's process prioritization?
No... I'm not kidding. I'm dead serious.
MagiC isn't ment to be used in a multi-users network. It's an Atari OS,
and the hardware concept doesn't allow networking without 3th parties
hacks. So keeping this in mind...
security: not needed on a one man, one computer system...
file locking: not needed at all
multi-user experience: I've answered that one already.
memory protection: it's missing and with a good reason. Memory protection
only works well with apps that were written with it in mind. Do I have to
list the endless list of apps that screw up memory protection? I could put
it differently and say: when an app is properly written it won't overwite
the other processes. With or without memory protection, a dirty written
program will always cause problems.
etc...
>I believe there's a lot of work still, and you have the balls to say "the
>competition is still playing catch up".
Oh yes, there is an enormous lot of work that still needs to be done, I
have a "wish list" here that's at least a mile long. But it does not
include the stuff which you seem to find important.
>Dang! ignorance, or mental retardation?
You've made your mind up a long time ago, remember?
Dennis Vermeire
Hi Maurits,
>Sorry your enourmously long rant was so full of stuff that didn't even
>remotely have anything to do with what I said that I can't be bothered
>to quote it all and reply to every detail that sparks a reaction in me,
>because I'd end up with a posting twice as long and I doubt anyone would
>read it. :)
I hope that at least you understand that it wasn't personal, your post got
me going, but I could just as well replied to one of the seven others that
day. I realise it was a long rant, I kept my mouth firlmly shut for months
here while having to read the greatest crap. Let's say that a certain valued
member who thinks he's special, constantly trying to provoke me sparked it of.
I even received a mail from someone asking me if I'd gone berserk, but take
note that I do not retract one single word of it. Unless proven wrong, the
best way to show that I'm wrong is to start releasing all that stuff, even if
it's a barely working beta. Then me and others here will at least know that
something is cooking in the oven.
>1. I am not denouncing Andreas Kromke for his great work on Magic and
>the fact that he wants money for it. I'm just saying that in a community
>as small as it is (as you rightfully point out), an os that is developed
>by volunteers has more of a chance than an os that needs commercial
>backing.
I know that you're not denouncing Andreas Kromke, but that's about all I
agree with. I think I made it quite clear in my previous post why I don't
believe in a OS being developed by a group of volunteers, it might work on
other platforms, but not on this one.
>Sure development of MiNT itself is slow but we did move on a few versions.
>Has Magic been so busy developping? What new functionality has been added
>in recent years?
No, the development is standing still at the moment. But then no one has
claimed otherwise. There's a difference between being put on hold and being
dead....
>As far as I can see, only stability improvements, something that MiNT+N.AES
>hardly needed in the first place.
Sorry but I disagree :-)
MINT itself is stable enough but are you serious about N.AES? If there's one
piece of code that needs a large stability inprovement then IMO it's that
one. Apps which behaved very irratic run like they should with Xaess. As
for MagiC, for me it's rock steady.... even MagiCMac behaves like I expect
it to.
But yes, I can bring the whole lot down in less then 5 seconds, and I can
bring MiNT down in 5 seconds also. All that one needs is one dirty app ;-)
And it doesn't matter on which OS it's running...
>Well, the thing that mostly needed development in MiNT: Easy
>installment. RPM handling was a great step, and now with several easy
>bootstrappers around, installing and configuring MiNTos to a fullblown
>Unix setup is a breeze even for newbies.
We have conflicting views again...
It's difficult enough for newbies to set up even an elementary MiNt setup
and configure it correctly. I agree that the installation has improved
compared to the mess from a couple of years ago, but to say that the full
blown installation is a breeze even for newbies is putting it very mildly.
>3. Remember I left the Atari-NL mailinglist after a discussion like this
>with you? :) As you (and apparantly only you) know, I didn't leave
>because of the discussion itself (which I enjoyed because most of it was
>quite in-depth) but because other people of the list who were telling
>both of us that an Atari list shouldn't be about modern stuff, only
>about tos 1.00 issues and how to copy st games.
Yes, I remember. And I still get a dirty taste in my mouth when I think why
and how you left the mailinglist. But I persevered and stayed on. The big
issue in there is spam now... it seems that even a ST with TOS 1.00 isn't
immune to it, if it's any consolation: the people who opposed you most, are
long gone by now, enjoying their brandnew PC's ;-)
>So, I just wanted to add I'm glad we can talk about modern-day st use, and
>I still consider you a friend :)
Yes, but then we're exceptions on the rule. There was a time that in CSAST
everyone could speak his peace, but these times are long gone. When one has
a different view or opinion he better keeps them to himself. You should see
the garbage which landed in my mailbox.... only two people had the guts to
put their real name on the mails. They didn't agree with my views, but then
I didn't expect them to either... But no matter what garbage one sends me,
remember that I have the guts to post using my real name and address here.
And rest assured... I'll keep on doing it :-)
Cheers from Belgium
Dennis
Dennis Vermeire
Hi Maurits,
>> CAB is not a "Iconnect" client per se.
>> CAB is a html browser/reader, with option to have plugin for
>connectivity.
>> Happens to work with mintnet, iconnect, stik whatever.
>
>Correct. In fact, CAB started as offline browser. The first network
>layer it supported was STiK. Then came MiNTnet(!!), and iConnect was the
>last layer it supported.
True, I should have put a winking smile behind that statement. There are
people here who's stomach gets upset when the words ASH or Iconnect are
mentioned.
>Apart from that, yes Dennis I'm staying away from CAB because it sucks
>mammoths. In its bug/functionality-ratio it's even worse than Explorer
>and Netscape, which is quite bad. So I use my Mac for browsing (Chimera).
I agree, but CAB is the best from the rest of other awfull apps pretending
to be browsers. People who don't have anything else then a real Atari at
home have little choice. Don't forget that the development of CAB stopped
some odd five years ago, version 2.6, 2.7 and 2.8 consisted of additional
addons and improved iconnects, but the browser itself...
BTW: you should try out Safari... rumours have it that its a cute little
browser ;-), under OS 9.2.2 I think Opera is the best of the bunch, iCAB
just like on Atari doesn't quite cut it...
>Highwire is quite promising and actually still under active development.
>It is incomplete, but everything that IS complete works way better than
>CAB. Just a bit more development and I might start using it seriously.
I have to be very carefull and walk on eggshells now:
Since Highwire still carries the beta tag, it's not really fair to comment
on it. Not that there's a lot to comment on, I can only use it as a very
primitive offline browser since it's not an Iconnect client.
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 10:53:14 +0200
>Dennis, u are idiot.. Now, u are certified idiot....
Hallelujah :-)
Cheers from Belgium
Dennis
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 23:23:21 -0400
>I had some usenet problems
Again????
You really should consider using a different stack and newsreader. Well,
not really, there are other people here using the same combination and
they seem to manage just fine....
If you don't understand something, just ask.
>I must say the number of foul mouth posts from certain people was
>staggering.
Do you mean that you've been reading your own posts? Gee... what for? Is
your short term memory on the blink ?
>Needless to say I'm back to my usually reader.
The one with the crappy killfilter?
>They think it is funny or such but in reality everyone I've ever
>discussed this with on IRC or ICQ thinks these people are complete
>losers.
That's what happens when one always talks to the same people, one risks
to loose his sense of reality and think his views are the only ones worth
persuing. If I would talk to a bunch of clones, well, I wouldn't expect
anything differently.
>They wouldn't last 5 minutes on an IRC channel or in a mailing-list.
Wanna bet?
Dennis Vermeire
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 23:01:40 GMT
Hi Martin,
>LP is indeed a valued member of this group. Lonny do some useful things
>for the Atari community which you and thelikes can't say at all. Lots of
>blabla but that's all you (and soul mates) have to offer to this group.
>For heaven sakes, try at least to say something useful instead of the
>mindless words you usualy spit out.
One usally gets back from me what they've put in. In Lonny's case I think
that I've been very considerate, read the posts again. I know what he
does and although I don't use his programs don't mean that I don't
appreciate it.
BUT.... (there's always a but), for almost a year now he's had it in for
me, it started when he announced that I was in his killfile. That doesn't
bother me one little bit, I presume I'm in one then more filter. However
you either decide you don't want to read ones postings and logically
don't reply to these either... the manner he replies in is personal, for
some reason that guy really hates my guts.
How many people do you HATE because they express their honest opinion? I
don't hate anyone, I disagree yes, and don't always like what I read in
here, but to actually hate a person, who I've never seen in real life and
don't really know at all? Sorry.... but there's simply no one on my hate
list.
Last tuesday was the final straw, he obviously wants a confrontation,
well he got one now. And I urge him to stop it, whatever happens I'm not
going to give in.... this whole stupid thing will hurt his reputation
more then mine.
Let's be honest about this Martin. We've had lots of serious discussions
and confrontations with each other in different groups, I think I know
you a little.... if someone would write:
"Due to poor quoting I am not sure who made this comment.
I suspect martin. rotfl!!!!"
How would you react? I'm convinced there wouldn't be much difference with
how reacted. I have no idea how Lonny thinks, maybe he thought that just
because I'm in his killfile, he's in mine as well and I wouldn't read all
the crap in which he mentions, targets or provokes me.
Anyway, it's very simple: he gets of my back and I'll return to be my
usual self, if he persist in it however....
I've been the sensible one long enough, not anymore.
Frederic Fouche
> From: Frederic Fouche <g21...@coazter.com>
> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 18:58:34 -0500
>
> Hi Frederic,
>
> >>Success is very relative. What is the market share of Linux? You still
> >>wanna call it a success?
> >
> >ouch, please check your numbers before talking about linux market share.
>
> An estimated 7%.
> And yes I realise that those 7% represent millions of users. I would not
> want to feed them... but I certainly wouldn't want to feed those other 93%
> ignorant people either.
That's about the Apple market share.
Compared to what on atari? 0.00000000000000001% market share.
> >hm did you check what extra apps are available on atari because of
> >GPL/open src?
> >few example:
> >
> >mp3 players
> >gcc!
> >POV
> >doom
> >perl
> >samba
> >ghostscript
> >etc. (the list is indeed very long)
>
> Here, we go again... from previous discussions you know very well what I
> ment. Yet you always refer to same things. It's probably coincidence but
> that list contains hardly anything which isn't already available for this
> platform be it shareware, freeware or commercial ?
what?
You are doing this on purpose.
Where the hell do you think any mp3 player (freeware, aniplay, commercial
whatever) is coming from?
The developer HAD to GET specs, src based from somewhere.
You think they reversed engineered all the software we have?
Question for Didier, if you didn't have any open src/gpl starting source
code for mp3 or video, could you have written aniplay?
I would really like to see a jpeg viewer on atari that didn't use the code
available. Anyone to name one?
Dennis, you obviously don't understand this thread. Either get a grasp on
it, or drop it and admit it, you just don't get it.
I would hope you would make some effort to understand really what we are
talking about, it would save us a lot of time and you won't have to be
ashamed.
See Dennis, there's 1 more thing you need to know.
I don't know anything about "Acting and Theatre", I am NOT going to talk
and pretend I know what I am talking about when I am surrounded by actors.
When you don't know, don't pretend. That's probably why you are so
annoying, and you claim "freedom of speech", well yeah, but sometimes just
keep your mouth shut.
I don't know anything about cars either, I am not gonna start a deep
conversation about who's a better driver, or what's the best car around
and argue to death because my little cousin few weeks ago mentionned
something.
Freedom of speech is all good, but man, sometimes you gotta know when to
shut up when you're just spewing things for the hell of it.
>
> gcc! : are you gonna write the missing libs ? :-)
what missing libs exactly are you talking about?
anything vital we need?
For your information GTK+ is available for MiNT :)
I know you are a big GUI fan, if you don't know what GTK+ is, please do
some research.
> Mp3 players: yeah right, my TT just loves playing mp3's, AFAIK there's a
> very good alternative available: Aniplayer.
why are you talking about your hardware?
I thought we were talking about OSS/GPL and OS on atari. what the HELL are
you talking about your TT not being fast enough to process mp3?
Geez Dennis....
good alternative to what??
mp3 has been documented, has src code available, that Didier took, and
implemented in aniplayer, then recoded some parts in asm for more speed as
the atari couldn't deal with it, and recoded some parts to use the DSP,
once again to get faster.
I believe Didier is fairly happy mp3 src were available, unless he really
wanted to reverse engineer, or go through an MP3 file and start from
scratch analyzing the bytes :) yeah right.
> POV: oh boy, this takes me back some years... I think it was ported before
> both MagiC and MiNT existed... there are a couple of very good commercial
> alternatives around.
hmmm I am talking about POV and you are talking about 3d software.
Kinda like talking between GIF and PIC1 images.
propriatory vs open standard.. Whatever.
> Doom: I'm not into games anymore, and even if I was, I wouldn't really
> call that example a Atari game. Just look at the hardware that's needed,
> so like usual it's a port for the minority of the users.
hm who cares what you like to do? who called it an atari game?
It is an example that GPL allowed atari platform (all OS mixed) to have an
extra game to its collection.
Your TT don't run it fast enough? that's your problem. Talking about
software again here. Boy, you like to warp things don't you?
> perl: OK, I give you that one..., although I don't call that example
> exactly something which will be used by the majority of people here.
Who talked about majority of people?
> samba: and that one as well :-)
whatever.
> ghostscript: AFAIK the development of ghostscript for Atari is dead. When
> has it last been updated? *AND* it needs an update. Not that it matters
> much really, Ultrascript is just as good and lots faster, but Ghostscript
> is a good example that GPL isn't all you make it out to be. When no one
> continues the development, it's as dead as software which doesn't carry
> the GPL tag.
Is Ultrascript based on Ghostscript?
Ghostscript is NOT an atari program. It happens to run on atari as long as
someone compiles the code.
Ghostscripts keeps on getting updated all the time.
When non-gpl/non OSS is dead, that's it. It's dead.
When GPL ports are getting out of sync. It is just a matter of grabbing
latest new src and do a fresh compile. The development is NOT made on
atari or FOR atari.
>
> >You're kidding right?
> >
> >where's the security in magic? where's the file locking capability?
> >Where's the multiuser experience? where's the memory protection?
> >Where's the remote display? where's everything?
> >Where's process prioritization?
>
> No... I'm not kidding. I'm dead serious.
>
> MagiC isn't ment to be used in a multi-users network. It's an Atari OS,
> and the hardware concept doesn't allow networking without 3th parties
> hacks. So keeping this in mind...
What a very good excuse.
Actually, let me rephrase that, what a poor excuse.
>
> security: not needed on a one man, one computer system...
Very good for you. And because you don't use your rearview mirror in your
car, you should ban them all as it is not really necessary.
Of course the automotive industry won't listen to you, so you'll go on
rampage that it is not really vital.
Magic works for you, great now just shut the hell up or be open-minded
enough to realize a LOT of people might have different requirements than
yours.
> file locking: not needed at all
Geez.
> multi-user experience: I've answered that one already.
yeah, and i'll give you the same answer.
> memory protection: it's missing and with a good reason. Memory protection
> only works well with apps that were written with it in mind. Do I have to
> list the endless list of apps that screw up memory protection? I could put
> it differently and say: when an app is properly written it won't overwite
> the other processes. With or without memory protection, a dirty written
> program will always cause problems.
> etc...
no comments.
>
> >I believe there's a lot of work still, and you have the balls to say "the
> >competition is still playing catch up".
>
> Oh yes, there is an enormous lot of work that still needs to be done, I
> have a "wish list" here that's at least a mile long. But it does not
> include the stuff which you seem to find important.
what's on top of your list?
Icons that talk to you when you go do a mouse-over?
Or wait, animated desktop background?
Oh no, I get it, mouse movement recognition?
Quote of the day.
"FATALER FEHLER IM GEMDOS!!!!"
Steve Sweet
> >Dennis, u are idiot.. Now, u are certified idiot....
>
> Hallelujah :-)
You Muppet, now you can claim state benefits.
Pascal Ricard
in article <1058298062-...@gmx.net> (comp.sys.atari.st),
Dennis Vermeire wrote on Tue 15-07-2003 15:25 (+0200):
> Since Highwire still carries the beta tag, it's not really fair to comment
> on it. Not that there's a lot to comment on, I can only use it as a very
> primitive offline browser since it's not an Iconnect client.
Did you try it with iFusion?
(I didn't yet)
Bye,
/Pascal/
--
Europe Shareware: http://europe-shareware.org
TransAction : http://atari.transaction.free.fr (Atari translations)
ST Magazine : http://stmagazine.org (French Atari fanzine)
Ric's HomePage : http://paricard.free.fr
Lonny
> True, but I haven't changed my address in at least three years. Let's say that
> the above quote was to tease Lonny. He publicly announced that he has put me
> in his killfile (obviously he doesn't seem to like the right to free speech,
> different opinions and visions), but whenever it suits him he replies to my
> posts, in my book that's hypocritical.
Well the situation is my news server keeps going down, so to get around
that I telnet to an SGI box and use PINE which happens to be too old to
support filtering. I have no real issues with free speech, I do have
issues however with people that cannot grasp even the simplest concepts.
At some point you have to decide is this worth it, does it have value, is
it true? Frankly you are so miss-informed that you ended up in the kill
file. So I may or may not read your posts, it depends purely on chance.
Not much different than filtering out ADVerts. Someone out to put an end
to free speech would terminate your inet connection, no you are confused
again. You still have your free speech, just don't expect everyone to
accept it as fact. In general I find that I'm not that interested in what
you have to say, apparently that bugs you, so you have to find something
to blame it on. I hold your IQ responsible, but if it makes you sleep
better you can pretend I'm trying to pull the phone cord from the jack on
the wall.
Lonny
> From: lp <g...@basic.net>
> Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 19:58:35 -0400
>
> >Due to poor quoting I am not sure who made this comment.
>
> You really are a fine piece of art Lonny. You haven't got the faintest
> idea of how to quote properly yourself, every single posting from you
> defies the RFC rules, and then you got the nerves to come in here and
> complain!!! And don't blame it on your precious newsreader, that would
> really make my day....
Cool.
> >I suspect dennis. rotfl!!!!
>
> Sorry, it wasn't me :-(
> In fact it was my brother in arms Steve. I've pointed out to Steve that
> he mixed up some facts and set the record straight concerning MiNT (see
> other post). You are a pityfull person Lonny, if you would put the same
> energy into programming as you do in trying to provoke me, this platform
> would benefit enormously.
Funny, comming from someone who contributes zero.
> >This is like the comedy channel, no wonder sinflap gets a kick
> >reading this stuff. hehe
>
> True, but then sinflap is an idiot who thinks this comedy channel is the
> only one available on his Dell computer. Nobody is forcing you to watch
> this channel, take your zapper and tune into:
>
> alt.hipcrime.periphs.usb
> alt.i-love.you-all.so-much
> alt.i-think.therefore.i-dont.use.linux
> alt.i-think.therefore.i-dont.listen-to.the-voices-in-my-head
> uwo.comp.pine
> alt.www.stupid-idiots.com
> alt.my-ass-iza-itchy
> alt.idiot.laughing-boy
> comp.sources.unix
> comp.sources.wanted
> comp.software.extreme-programming
> alt.wee.goaway.goaway.goaway
> muc.lists.mint
> alt.oldfarts
> hannet.ml.pci
> alt.why-is-this-shit-happening.to-my-ng
> alt.support.troll-acceptance
> alt.i.hate.myself.and.want.to.die
> alt.idiots
> alt.morons
> alt.anyone.can.make.a.group
>
> Unfortunately alt.sack.full.of.shit has been taken of air, but then I'm
> convinced you'll be welcomed in the other channels with open arms just the
> same. No need to thank me, I'm always on standby here to help a valued
> member of this community.... :-)
>
> Cheers from Belgium
> Dennis
> --
> ____ ____ ____
> / __ \ / __ \ / __ \
> / / / / / / / / / /_/ /
> / / / / / / / / / ____/
> / /_/ / / /_/ / / /
> /_____/ /_____/ /_/ Translations
> der...@cix.co.uk
> dennis....@gmx.net
> xla...@cix.co.compulink.co.uk
> http://www.cix.co.uk/~derryck/index.htm
>
>
>
ps. poor qouting is dedicated to whoever...
Lonny
The more you go on the more you do a dis-service to yourself and
magic. Btw, don't bother dusting off the clone, you ain't getting in
with this sort of posting, finally you have showed your true colors
and it's the same as Steve. You merely wish to cause trouble for no
reason other than lack of respect and knowledge on your part.
Good luck with your usb/scsi solution, I never said it would never work
only that it might be harder. You really should take a step back
and decide if you wish to join ranks with the likes of Steve. Outside
of usenet the opinion of Steve is so low I can't even say the words it's
that bad. You make a good pair I guess, good luck to ya.
Sadly I think I won't be using PINE anymore, I will have to go 100%
filtering all the time, just to tolerate this place.
I also will consider wether it's worth supporting magic in the future,
if you guys are typical magic users it's not looking so good...
I would address every point here, but it's like a total waste of time
since from the onset it has become obvious you have issues with people
who can afford a clone, who use mint, who like unix, or show any general
insterst towards moving forward, rather than sitting here blabbing about
it. You have just as much oppertunity, I could call you the self
proclaimed scsi->usb adapter guru, but that's silly. Grow up.
was to bored to quote right, so sue me...
> From: Lonny <lp...@coazter.com>
> Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 11:12:13 -0500
>
> >I still am willing to send ozk a pci usb card if someone could help
> >me research the best one to go with, but it looks as if this is not the
> >place for real discussions. I can see I need to move this to the Atari
> >clone mailing list.
>
> Since you're the self proclaimed USB expert and I am the moron I won't
> bother explaining that there is no such thing as the "best USB" card, as
> long as it's OHCI compatible (which 99.99 % of the cards are) ozk should
> be just fine. Ozk if you are reading this.... get in touch with me. I have
> a obsolete PCI-USB 1.1 card right here, you can have it. Lonny doesn't need
> to do any "research" at all and on top of that we save him from making a
> fool of himself in that mailing list. So it's clearly a win-win situation
> for everyone.
>
> BTW Lonny: I have a clone gathering dust here, before you know it, I might
> bring it back to live and join that famous list. Kicking some life into it
> and having long, sensible and heated discussions with you.
> Now, if that isn't something to look foreward to.... ;-)
>
> >As Martin has said, magic is a closed door, and without a 3rd party
> >hack it would be hopelessly lost.
>
> Here we go again.... hopelessly lost at what? One single feature which me
> and a lot of other users do not use and need in the first place. Vasillis
> didn't want to reinvent the wheel, unlike some people. He simply "ported"
> MiNTNet improving it a little. You seem to forget that MiNT is hopelessly
> lost also without MiNTNet coming to the rescue.
> Tell me, is MiNTNet an original from scratch developed application or just
> another port with some specific bells and whistles added? In my book your
> precious MiNTNet is a ported program. I've just learned that ported stuff
> is now being referred to as " a hack" here...
> So here's the new definition of MagiCNet: it's an improved 3th party hack
> based on a 2nd party hack. You do realise that calling MagiCNet a 3th
> party hack doesn't do much justice to MiNTNet either I hope?
>
> Vassilis or someone else for that matter could have reinvented the wheel
> and wrote a MiNTNet clone from scratch, he's done the sensible thing if
> you ask me and brought the two OS's a step closer. Let's put it this way:
> thanks to MagiCNet some people who would have turned their back on this
> platform, are still here, and in my book that's a good thing. You on the
> other hand aren't bothered by this ofcourse, these people are MagiC users,
> and we all know how you feel about people using MagiC don't we?
>
>
> >I presented a perfectly legit idea, and rather than contribute any solid
> >logical comments he'd rather call everything I say bullshit.
>
> I call a horse a horse, and almost everything you "contributed" to that
> particular thread is bullshit... I suggest to read my contribution again,
> but this time unbiased and with an open mind. I presented a IMO perfect
> legit idea also, which you've dismissed purely on the basis that it came
> from me. But don't worry, I'll toss it up again sometime.
>
> >Development should not focus on such an OS, that's simply a logical
> >conclusion.
>
> Logical? Sorry but I don't see any logic in that statement.
> You want logic? Here's some logic to chew on:
> If anyone out there ever succeeds at bringing USB to this platform he/she
> should do all he possibly can to ensure that the drivers work on all the
> OS's. USB on Atari should enable us to use mouses, scanners, printers and
> other goodies.... and I strongly believe that USB should be available for
> people using a 1040 under TOS as well. USB on Atari should *NOT* be OS
> specific to begin with. And don't come telling us that this is impossible.
> USB is coming to the Atari 8bit computers soon, is that ancient hardware
> superior to ours ?
>
>
> >No OS is perfect, however since magic has been retro fitted to be mintnet
> >compatible you can conclude only one thing. Development should start
> >with mint and trickle the other direction. It's painfully obvious
> >mintnet has set the standard for networking or magicnet would not exist.
>
> I thought we were talking about a USB driver? I don't know what you have in
> mind but as the self proclaimed USB expert perhaps you could enlighten us a
> little? What on earth has MiNTNet got to do with USB ? And believe it or
> not but there are more people out there "networking" with STiNG then with
> your precious MiNTNet.
> BTW: MagiC hasn't been retro fitted in any way. Someone developed a MiNTNet
> compatible hack for it, that's not quite the same thing is it?
>
>
> >Seriously, what does Opera have to do with USB?
> >Absolutely nothing, dennis just likes to avoid the real issues
> >and cloud everything to the point where the original idea is lost.
>
> Oh boy.... you take one sentence from my post, pull it completely out of
> context and then start nagging about it. Surely you can do better then
> that? Opera hasn't got anything to do with USB, just like MiNTNet hasn't
> got anything to do with USB...
>
> Oh, and talking about clouding things: the original idea was to bring USB
> to the Atari platform, after you spoke your peace, the idea all of a sudden
> changed into bringing USB to a PCI based clone running under MiNT. And to
> sweeten it up a little, all the morons using a different OS and /or holding
> on to original Atari hardware could look forward to *perhaps* "someone"
> porting it over to their system....
> Tell me Lonny, who's the real expert here in clouding things?
>
> You know very well that there isn't a "someone" here that might "perhaps"
> port it over. I've been waiting for years to see the first non-commercial
> printer, scanner, CD-RW, graphic tablet, etc... driver appear ported by
> "someone"... why would it be any different with USB?
>
> >The problem is people like dennis.
>
> I made promotion !!!
> I used to be just a pain in the ****, but all of a sudden I've moved on,
> I'm a problem now....
> "people like dennis"... do you mean there are more like me in here? That's
> the most refreshing news I've heard in a long time !!
>
>
> >Unlike dennis I do contribute back to the community, with software,
> >mailing lists, docs, tips, see my website.
>
> I propose we start up a Lonny P. foundation, if everyone chips in a couple
> of dollars, we might just have enough for a statue !!
> But coming to think of it, we would have to start up a lot of foundations,
> erecting statues all over the place. I know at least a dozen people in this
> group who deserve a statue... In less then a year you're the second guy in
> here who tells me he's special.... don't trip over your ego Lonny.
>
> You really must hate me, am I on some sort of 10 most wanted people list?
> You don't have the faintest clue about what I might do or not do for this
> platform but that doesn't stop you to feel superior? I'm not a programmer
> so my contributions are somewhat different to yours, let's put it this way:
> I know who and how I helped people out over the years, and they know it as
> well. The difference is that I don't come bragging about it in here. But if
> everyone I helped out would send me a dollar, I could erect a statue for
> myself :-)
>
> But by all means keep on coding and contributing, you're doing very nice
> things, just learn to be a little more modest... I know people who don't
> participate in this group but do follow it. Some of these have done and
> still do more for this community then the two of us put together. These
> people who shall reamin anonymous deserve a statue, and sorry Lonny
> compared to them your contributions are peanuts, you're not in the same
> leage (yet), keep on trying...
> Oh and the people regularly posting in CSAST are not the only remaining
> Atari users, they are just a *small* part of the Atari community. There
> are more or less 30 people on the atari clone list, some 1750 clones have
> been sold.... think and chew on this for a minute, where are these users
> and what is their preferred OS? Have you idea how many versions of
> MagiCHades and MagiCMilan were sold? Who these people are and what they
> use the clones for? These users aren't helped by your contributions at
> all, but they do value my input from time to time.... but don't worry, in
> here you're still mr.special.
>
>
> >I fully expect dennis to go off, that is his prefered nature for I am
> >evil cause I speak the truth.
>
> You've made a study of my old postings, one thing you should have learned
> from these is that I'm fairly consistent...
> Your so-called thruth stretches as far as your nose. Take a very deep
> breath and look around you. What I see depresses me deeply, and postings
> like yours who try to devide whatever there's left of this platform into
> good and evil are ridiculous. Forget the good old OS-wars, there aren't
> enough soldiers left to fight anymore. All what's left are a couple of
> generals, a few traitors, a dozen prisoners and one or two deserters....
> like I said not enough to start a new war... sorry.
Lonny
See exactly my point. Thanks Steve you once again prove your
pre-disposition for hatred towards those that saved for ages
to buy something that means a great deal to them.
> Hi "Dennis Vermeire"
>
> > BTW Lonny: I have a clone gathering dust here, before you know it, I might
> > bring it back to live and join that famous list. Kicking some life into it
> > and having long, sensible and heated discussions with you.
> > Now, if that isn't something to look foreward to.... ;-)
>
> If you had a clone you'd have to turn into an arrogant self-righteous
> asshole, and then you wouldn't talk to any of us humans anymore.
>
> Repeat after me 'Killfile', you'll need this phrase if your a clone-owner.
>
>
Lonny
If a list was taken as to who actually disrupts this group, quite alot
of people would have identical lists. Everyone at the top of this list
is also people who contribute zero back to the community. Sad really.
Lonny
Part of the problem is interpretation I think. No one is trying to tell
anyone to switch to mint, if magic works for someone, cool. In that
situation magic is superior. Especially if you are happy.
However on a pure feature by feature comparison mint comes out on top,
hands down. For the power use that has a requirement for memory
protection or file locking, there is an option. Just cause magic falls
short in some areas doesn't mean it's not useful to someone else.
Neither is perfect.
No big deal, use what you need. For some reason people can't disassociate
the 2 points, and it's taken as a slam. Since the magic user went off
half cocked it all out of wack, and I don't see dennis spitting out
a "sorry i was wrong". He's rather argue all which way, jump around
all over the place, before ever uttering that. For a moment I thought
it could be worked out, but after seeing the post in here unfiltered
I can see it's hopeless.
Whatever the problem is, dennis won't admit to being wrong or confused.
Plenty of gem apps are based on unix open source, even AtarIRC although
I had to port "C" to GFA. ;-)
I also think the thread has simply grown to the point where dennis
is just arguing for the pure sport of arguing, otherwise I never
seen someone that out of touch.
Lonny
> From: "Steve Sweet" <steve...@btopenworld.com>
> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 17:31:59 +0000 (UTC)
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> >>BTW Lonny: I have a clone gathering dust here, before you know it, I might
> >>bring it back to live and join that famous list. Kicking some life into it
> >>and having long, sensible and heated discussions with you.
> >>Now, if that isn't something to look foreward to.... ;-)
> >
> >If you had a clone you'd have to turn into an arrogant self-righteous
> >asshole, and then you wouldn't talk to any of us humans anymore.
>
> Well Steve, the problem is that I actually do have a clone... so it's a bit
> of a dillemma. I can either bring it back to life and risk being turned into
> something that resembles Lonny or just leave it like it is.
> No... on second thoughts I rather stay human :-)
Trust me you won't ressemble me at all, unless you pick up some coding
tools and start actually giving back to the community as I have.
If you feel magic is good, fine. Code some apps for it and stop with
the BS. That might require actually looking at open source GPL code
or heavy duty reverse engineering. Etheir way, I'd prefer to see some
new apps from you than a bunch of worthless posts. If you need some
coding tips, docs, see my website.
Just go to google type my name, you know it well... ;-)
> >Repeat after me 'Killfile', you'll need this phrase if your a clone-owner.
>
> No way, I believe in free speech even tough I'm not an American.
Free speech implies free hearing, you can't make someone listen or read.
That part is voluntary, lol
Lonny
> From: lp <g...@basic.net>
> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 23:23:21 -0400
>
> >I had some usenet problems
>
> Again????
> You really should consider using a different stack and newsreader. Well,
> not really, there are other people here using the same combination and
> they seem to manage just fine....
> If you don't understand something, just ask.
>
> >I must say the number of foul mouth posts from certain people was
> >staggering.
>
> Do you mean that you've been reading your own posts? Gee... what for? Is
> your short term memory on the blink ?
>
> >Needless to say I'm back to my usually reader.
>
> The one with the crappy killfilter?
>
> >They think it is funny or such but in reality everyone I've ever
> >discussed this with on IRC or ICQ thinks these people are complete
> >losers.
>
> That's what happens when one always talks to the same people, one risks
> to loose his sense of reality and think his views are the only ones worth
> persuing. If I would talk to a bunch of clones, well, I wouldn't expect
> anything differently.
>
>
> >They wouldn't last 5 minutes on an IRC channel or in a mailing-list.
>
> Wanna bet?
No, I don't take money from children.
See how easily you transformed into Steve, you got his rude,
pushy, BS format down real good now.
Excellant work.
Lonny
I don't have it in for anyone. I tried like hell to explain the
subtle difference between PINE and a CLI. Sorry but you didn't grasp
it or didn't want to grasp it. I don't even care anymore.
A killfile in not automated hatred, it's simply a choice to read
or not read posts from specific individuals or remove ads.
All I can say is the thread went wrong somewhere, I don't
care at which end it went wrong at either. It's long past.
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003, Dennis Vermeire wrote:
Maurits van de Kamp
> True, I should have put a winking smile behind that statement. There are
> people here who's stomach gets upset when the words ASH or Iconnect are
> mentioned.
Or "CAB" in my case. ;) Nah but considering the fact that STiK was
actually written for CAB in the first place and that CAB had a MiNTnet
overlay before Iconnect even existed, you're bound to upset some
stomachs here. :)
> I agree, but CAB is the best from the rest of other awfull apps pretending
> to be browsers. People who don't have anything else then a real Atari at
> home have little choice.
True, because it's the most finished one. But that's really the best
comment I can give it. :)
> BTW: you should try out Safari... rumours have it that its a cute little
> browser ;-),
Already using it, since os-x's auto-update stuffed it down my throat. :)
(Well I could have deselected it, but I was curious). :) Haven't used
it very much yet but it looks promising. At least it hasn't crashed on
me yet. :)
It would be nice if Safari can cut down the number of browsers I have to
use on my Mac.. so far I was using Chimera whenever possible (after
getting annoyed with all the bugs and random crashes in msie and
netscape), but needed msie for any site with bad javascript (since msie
is the most "stupid html designer errors-compliant"), and needed
netscape 6 because it's the only Mac browser in the world that will work
with Girotel (internet banking).
Haven't tried Safari with Girotel yet. ;)
> under OS 9.2.2 I think Opera is the best of the bunch, iCAB
> just like on Atari doesn't quite cut it...
Heheh no I don't see Cab surviving the competition on the Mac platform. :)
> I have to be very carefull and walk on eggshells now:
> Since Highwire still carries the beta tag, it's not really fair to comment
> on it. Not that there's a lot to comment on, I can only use it as a very
> primitive offline browser since it's not an Iconnect client.
Well it's very unfinished but all the functionality that it *does* have,
looks a lot better (especially faster) than Cab already. And since it's
still being developed, I'm keeping my hopes up. :)
Maurits.
Maurits van de Kamp
>>ouch, please check your numbers before talking about linux market share.
>
> An estimated 7%.
> And yes I realise that those 7% represent millions of users. I would not
> want to feed them... but I certainly wouldn't want to feed those other 93%
> ignorant people either.
It's not just the number, it's the rise. Look at Microsoft's fears of
Linux. Look at major companies like Compaq/HP, IBM etc all starting up
serious Linux support. Philips has joined with several companies to
start up an Embedded Linux platform. Look at the city of Munich, who is
replacing Windows and m$-office with Linux and OpenOffice on the 14,000
PCs of their civil servants (when this was announced, Microsoft's stock
value decreased 1.5%).
This is all just the beginning. Unices and open source are the way to go. :)
Ok this kinda deviates from the topic, but the thought that linux is
just a toy and not a serious competitor is really a naivity of the past. :)
Maurits.
Maurits van de Kamp
> I hope that at least you understand that it wasn't personal, your post got
> me going, but I could just as well replied to one of the seven others that
> day.
Ok that explains something. :) Actually I just rejoined csas a few weeks
ago (looking for a solution of my Nova/VME probs). So I missed most of this.
> Sorry but I disagree :-)
> MINT itself is stable enough but are you serious about N.AES? If there's one
> piece of code that needs a large stability inprovement then IMO it's that
> one.
Hmm, I guess I'm lucky then. :) Even 1.0.0 was rock solid for me.
> Apps which behaved very irratic run like they should with Xaess.
You mean XaAES is more stable than n.aes? I doubt it, although I must
add that XaAES'es "instability" is mostly because of missing features
since it's not yet finished. I must also add that I haven't tried it for
a long time and a LOT of updates have been released since the last time.
(By volunteers..) ;)
> We have conflicting views again...
> It's difficult enough for newbies to set up even an elementary MiNt setup
> and configure it correctly. I agree that the installation has improved
> compared to the mess from a couple of years ago, but to say that the full
> blown installation is a breeze even for newbies is putting it very mildly.
Which is the last installer you've seen?
> Yes, I remember. And I still get a dirty taste in my mouth when I think why
> and how you left the mailinglist. But I persevered and stayed on. The big
> issue in there is spam now... it seems that even a ST with TOS 1.00 isn't
> immune to it,
Oh dear look what the world is coming to. :)
> if it's any consolation: the people who opposed you most, are
> long gone by now, enjoying their brandnew PC's ;-)
Hmm that was to be expected. :) I still see similar stuff happening in
atari-midi though, although slightly different.. when you speak there
about using an Atari for audio recording (not even promoting it, but for
example just asking a question about it) you'll get about 5 replies from
people who will tell you that you should (must) use a pc or mac for
audio because an Atari is completely unsuitable. When you disagree with
them and offer some defence for the Ataris (stability, no spyware,
perfect timing..) you'll get mails varying from friendly remarks to
downright flames saying you should be "open minded" about talking PC
stuff on an atari list. The pot calling the kettle black. :)
In one of these discussions I was even called an "Atari-imaam" who
wanted to "brainwash everyone", by someone who I think was also on
atari-nl. :)
> Yes, but then we're exceptions on the rule. There was a time that in CSAST
> everyone could speak his peace, but these times are long gone.
Well I've only known csas as a place full of flamefights.. :) But at
least Atari stuff is still considered on-topic here. :)
> I didn't expect them to either... But no matter what garbage one sends me,
> remember that I have the guts to post using my real name and address here.
> And rest assured... I'll keep on doing it :-)
Heh good for you :) Well my name is real but I'm using a fake email
address only because of the enormous loads of spam I received after
posting my email address in a newsgroup posting just once, years ago. So
I'm hiding my new email address. :)
Maurits.
Janez Valant
> On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:49:10 +0200, Maurits van de Kamp
> <james....@enterprise.nasa.gov> wrote:
>
>>Hi Dennis,
>>
>
>>> Sorry but I disagree :-)
>>> MINT itself is stable enough but are you serious about N.AES? If there's
>>> one piece of code that needs a large stability inprovement then IMO it's
>>> that one.
>>
>>Hmm, I guess I'm lucky then. :) Even 1.0.0 was rock solid for me.
>>
>>> Apps which behaved very irratic run like they should with Xaess.
>>
>>You mean XaAES is more stable than n.aes? I doubt it, although I must
>>add that XaAES'es "instability" is mostly because of missing features
>>since it's not yet finished. I must also add that I haven't tried it for
>>a long time and a LOT of updates have been released since the last time.
>>(By volunteers..) ;)
>>
>
> I'll second that. NAES has been rock solid on both my Afterburner and
> Mighty Sonic machines. Xaess, at least the early versions, didn't
> fair to well in my book, but I could have botched the installations. I
> also have NOVA hardware installed and AIRC, not all of the video modes
> were supported in Xaess. I'm sure that Xaess does work, but just like
> some people can't get MiNT working properly (or to their liking) just
> didn't follow through with the testing as NAES works perfectly. Thanks
> to Doug Little for getting me going with it.
> Navair.Navy.Mil
> Mike
N.AES has been very stable here as well. There is smal catch, for gfx
card owners, or guys with ct2/etc and big resolutions. U need to use bigger
qsbchars, cqsbchars, mpipesize and sstacksize buffers, usualy doubling them
helps... If some use extended res and experience odd freezes, thats the
cause... I also use a trick for recovering from some realy bad
applications, usualy games or demos.. I did install NCHRES to f9 key.. so
when such app return with messed screen, i press f9, ret, ret and that is.
Janez