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SF0218

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Jan 13, 2004, 3:22:23 PM1/13/04
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Hello all,

I'd like to read the thoughts of any persons who've been using Aranym. I'm
contemplating selling my Falcon and going with Aranym on my athlon based
system.

Thanks,
SamF

Mark D

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Jan 13, 2004, 6:34:01 PM1/13/04
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I like Aranym, It has great use for me coding at work. Would I ever
replace my CT60 falcon with it? Never. It's a good help for me, never a
replacement. Just as well, I can provide a good home for that falcon if
need be ;-)

Mark
http://portal.atari-source.com

Standa Opichal

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Jan 14, 2004, 4:01:43 AM1/14/04
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Hi!

try AFROS Live CD, http://aranym.sf.net/

STan

Matthias Alles

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Jan 14, 2004, 11:29:11 AM1/14/04
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Hi!

> I'd like to read the thoughts of any persons who've been using Aranym. I'm
> contemplating selling my Falcon and going with Aranym on my athlon based
> system.

Aranym is nice, if you want to compile things with MiNT for example. But
it never can give you the feeling you have when sitting in front of a
real Falcon. Sitting in front of a PC running an emulator (or virtual
machine if you prefer this) isn´t just as nice as sitting in front of an
Atari. That is why Aranym is not THE alternative for me.

Matthias

Janez Valant

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Jan 14, 2004, 12:35:10 PM1/14/04
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> I'm contemplating selling my Falcon and going with Aranym on my athlon
> based system.

Thank you, ARANYM dudes....

Bruce

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Jan 14, 2004, 1:11:28 PM1/14/04
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Let me know if you sell your Falcon!


"SF0218" <sf0...@aol.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:20040113152223...@mb-m04.aol.com...

mis...@sezampro.yu

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Jan 21, 2004, 11:16:10 AM1/21/04
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Aranym is great for me !
My second machine is Aranym system runung on AMD (Mandrake 9.1+Aranym+NAES
2.0+Thing )
Aranym is future for all Atarians !!!

Regards Misha !!!



Janez Valant

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Jan 21, 2004, 3:13:31 PM1/21/04
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> Aranym is future for all Atarians !!!

User running aranym, is not Atarian. I have few emus, so am i Amigian,
Mac"ininan"? Blah.

mis...@sezampro.yu

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Jan 21, 2004, 5:00:48 PM1/21/04
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Maybe we are not Atarian ,but Aranym is great !!!
(anyway I have also atari Falcon and Ste !!!) ;-)


regards ,Misha

Jo Even Skarstein

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Jan 22, 2004, 5:11:54 PM1/22/04
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Janez Valant <s...@atari.org> wrote:

>> Aranym is future for all Atarians !!!
>
> User running aranym, is not Atarian. I have few emus, so am i Amigian,

I only have two "Ataris" running now. One Milan running MiNT/N.AES, and
one ancient Mac (Performa 475) running MagiCMac. I guess I'm no Atarian
then...

--

/*
** Jo Even Skarstein http://joska.nvg.org/
*/

o...@atari-rules.org

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Jan 22, 2004, 8:28:23 PM1/22/04
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On Thu, 22 Jan 2004, Jo Even Skarstein wrote:

> Janez Valant <s...@atari.org> wrote:
>
> >> Aranym is future for all Atarians !!!
> >
> > User running aranym, is not Atarian. I have few emus, so am i Amigian,
>
> I only have two "Ataris" running now. One Milan running MiNT/N.AES, and
> one ancient Mac (Performa 475) running MagiCMac. I guess I'm no Atarian
> then...

When you use the Milan, you are an Atarian, cause then you use hardware
designed to be a TOS machine. When you use the ancient Mac, you are not an
Atarian, cause it was not designed to be a TOS machine ;-)


--
Regards,

Odd Skancke - <ozk AT atari DOT org> - http://assemsoft.atari.org
To reply, remove -RULES from the Reply-To: address.


SWE/YesCREW

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Jan 23, 2004, 10:44:43 AM1/23/04
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On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 o...@atari-RULES.org wrote:

> On Thu, 22 Jan 2004, Jo Even Skarstein wrote:
>
> > Janez Valant <s...@atari.org> wrote:
> >
> > >> Aranym is future for all Atarians !!!
> > >
> > > User running aranym, is not Atarian. I have few emus, so am i Amigian,
> >
> > I only have two "Ataris" running now. One Milan running MiNT/N.AES, and
> > one ancient Mac (Performa 475) running MagiCMac. I guess I'm no Atarian
> > then...
>
> When you use the Milan, you are an Atarian, cause then you use hardware
> designed to be a TOS machine. When you use the ancient Mac, you are not an
> Atarian, cause it was not designed to be a TOS machine ;-)


And u dont yell arround how Aranym is Atari future, how new HW in work
is crap and so on... I like Ataris because of nice hardware they
introduced at time, diferent hardware and software we use.. And i love it
with good or bad points.. So what if i cant watch DVDs? Aranym pages make
ppl believe that now playing mp3 at 9% (7% here on falcon) and DVD/AVIs is
all we need..


Janez


P.S. I dont judge anyone using Aranym. It may be usefull tool, coding
envoirment, but its not Atari future... I speak for myself: at the moment
no new hw will came out, no old one will be possible to acquire etc, ill
switch platform.. but hopefully that wont make some time yet :))

Jo Even Skarstein

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Jan 23, 2004, 1:02:00 PM1/23/04
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o...@atari-rules.org wrote:

> When you use the Milan, you are an Atarian, cause then you use hardware
> designed to be a TOS machine. When you use the ancient Mac, you are not an
> Atarian, cause it was not designed to be a TOS machine ;-)

Both machines are mounted to the underside of my desk. I can't see the
hardware, and when they're running, I really can't tell if it's the
"real" hardware or not (except for the speed of course). So to me the
labels on the PCB's and chips doesn't matter.

Janez Valant

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Jan 23, 2004, 2:57:23 PM1/23/04
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Jo Even Skarstein wrote:

Okay, but for me they dont run a lot of Atari software. I dont expect
100% compatbility but let say some 30-40% maybe, to call machine "Atari" as
we meant it, ST>TT>F030 line of machines...

Janez

mis...@sezampro.yu

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Jan 23, 2004, 2:32:11 PM1/23/04
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With Aranym you can run so many application,very well !!!
When you run on linux you can enable JIT and you can work
like never before on real Atari !!!

Jo Even Skarstein

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Jan 23, 2004, 3:32:36 PM1/23/04
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Janez Valant <s...@atari.org> wrote:

> Okay, but for me they dont run a lot of Atari software. I dont expect
> 100% compatbility but let say some 30-40% maybe, to call machine "Atari" as
> we meant it, ST>TT>F030 line of machines...

I would be very surprised if Aranym was less "compatible" than my
Milan. There are many good ST-emulators that are almost 100% compatible
(but also limited, as they're only ST's ofcourse), my Milan will only run
clean GEM-apps.

Janez Valant

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Jan 23, 2004, 4:55:30 PM1/23/04
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mis...@sezampro.yu wrote:

I have tried Aranym, u dont need to explain me anything. Most apps i
regulary use, dont work. Im not pure GEM user, there are non GEM apps which
are better as GEM ones, and i use them often, and i definately dont give a
shit if i cant watch DVDs on Ataris i own. Please spare me such remarks...

For Aranym, as new Atari hope i need to fullfill 2 things actualy, one is
to get a PC and 2nd is to instal Linux (since only really usable version is
Linux one). Interesting indeed.


Janez

Janez Valant

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Jan 23, 2004, 5:06:14 PM1/23/04
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Jo Even Skarstein wrote:


> I would be very surprised if Aranym was less "compatible" than my
> Milan. There are many good ST-emulators that are almost 100% compatible
> (but also limited, as they're only ST's ofcourse), my Milan will only run
> clean GEM-apps.

Yes and Aranym does run few apps more.. Still no trackers, non gem
painters, games... Those are "Atari apps" as well. And u know what im
against. Im not against Aranym, or users of it, im against calling it new
Atari, or best Atari, or Atari future... Aranym is an emu (or virtual
machine) and Milan is GEM compatible machine. Thats is not a word to
declare it bad, its just truth what it is. Same as for example new VW
beetle is not the real VW beetle. Its faster, more comfortable and still
any serius VW fan will say it has 0% feeling of original. My friend has
Milan, use it a lot, he never call it best Atari he has.. And we dont have
any squarrel bout it... As u have all rights to use Aranym, like it etc, i
have same right to call it non Atari, emu or vitual machine, i dont offend
anyone with that...

Janez

o...@atari-rules.org

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Jan 23, 2004, 5:30:08 PM1/23/04
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Well, to me the hardware plays a vital role. I point out that this might
be just me, but lets take oVDI which I'm working on. Do you think you can
use the driver written for ARAnyM on a PC with Radeon on a Hades with a
Radeon? The want us to think of ARAnyM as new hardware... well, lets
see...

Misha

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Jan 23, 2004, 6:22:41 PM1/23/04
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The best and most popular Atari app's are GEM application !!! :-)

Janez Valant

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Jan 24, 2004, 6:07:32 AM1/24/04
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Misha wrote:

> The best and most popular Atari app's are GEM application !!! :-)

Ok, u didnt run many nongem apps i see....

Janez

Misha

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Jan 24, 2004, 5:37:51 AM1/24/04
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On 24-Jan-2004, Janez Valant <s...@atari.org> wrote:

> NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 11:07:35 MET
> Xref: EUnet.yu comp.sys.atari.st:119689


>
> Misha wrote:
>
> > The best and most popular Atari app's are GEM application !!! :-)
>

> Ok, u didn't run many nongem apps i see....
>
>
>
Very funny......;-)

Johan Klockars

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Jan 24, 2004, 9:56:34 AM1/24/04
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In article <Pine.MNT.4.31.0401232326490.716-100000@hadesbox>,

<o...@atari-RULES.org> wrote:
>On Fri, 23 Jan 2004, Jo Even Skarstein wrote:
>
>> o...@atari-rules.org wrote:
>>
>> > When you use the Milan, you are an Atarian, cause then you use hardware
>> > designed to be a TOS machine. When you use the ancient Mac, you are not an
>> > Atarian, cause it was not designed to be a TOS machine ;-)

If I were to have a definition of 'an Atarian', it would be a person
that uses Atari software. Not that I care one way or the other.

>> "real" hardware or not (except for the speed of course). So to me the
>> labels on the PCB's and chips doesn't matter.
>
> Well, to me the hardware plays a vital role. I point out that this might
>be just me, but lets take oVDI which I'm working on. Do you think you can
>use the driver written for ARAnyM on a PC with Radeon on a Hades with a
>Radeon?

So, you have access to Radeon documentation so you can write an actual
AGP/PCI driver for oVDI? If so, I'd be very interested in getting hold
of that (but not for the purpose of writing an ARAnyM driver, see below).
As it is, the only halfway modern cards I have documentation for are the
Voodoo cards.

Anyway, assuming you ported ARAnyM to run on the Hades, the fVDI ARAnyM
driver should work perfectly well there.
This is because the driver (well, the ARAnyM native part of it, the
68k part does not do much at all) does not attempt to use the graphics
card of the PC directly. That is often impossible due to lack of
documentation, locks you into a (or a couple of) specific card, and is
mostly pointless in any case since the API overhead when running on
modern hardware is not worth worrying about.
In the specific case of the current fVDI ARAnyM driver, it is very
much slower for many operations than it could be, since it uses the
SDL library for screen access rather than something like Xlib or OpenGL
(there are plans to develop one or both of these, though). But it can
still beat current hardware accelerated graphics on 68k Atari
compatibles (not necessarily for all operations or for all combinations
of hardware and software).

> The want us to think of ARAnyM as new hardware... well, lets see...

Well, any Atari software that does not access any hardware directly,
and is OK on a modern 68k cpu, should run under ARAnyM.
Just as would be the case for an actual machine built to run (a modified)
TOS on a modern 68k cpu but without supporting any of the 'legacy' chips.

--
Chalmers University | Why are these | e-mail: ra...@cd.chalmers.se
of Technology | .signatures |
| so hard to do | WWW: http://www.klockars.net
Gothenburg, Sweden | well? | (fVDI, MGIFv5, QLem)

Misha

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Jan 24, 2004, 11:35:05 AM1/24/04
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On 24-Jan-2004, ra...@cd.chalmers.se (Johan Klockars) wrote:

> If I were to have a definition of 'an Atarian', it would be a person
> that uses Atari software. Not that I care one way or the other.

Bravo !!!
Thats right !!!I


> >> "real" hardware or not (except for the speed of course). So to me the
> >> labels on the PCB's and chips doesn't matter.

For me also !!!

Everyone who run Atari software,need :speed,high color graphics,16bit sounds
network,and with Aranym you have everything !!!Also invest in one Aranym
system is
not expensive !!! (AMD 2600+ for example )

Janez Valant

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Jan 24, 2004, 2:19:57 PM1/24/04
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Misha wrote:

I guess im not EVERYONE then. Go propagate buying cheap computers (PC)
somewhere else please. Excuse, that chip label dont count, is not the right
one. Aranym is not an Atari, esp since it lies on alien OS regardless if
run on Mac or PC (intel/motorola). No Linux/Windows equals No Aranym, so
please stop talking about Atari system. It is Windows/Linux system running
Atari emulator.

Speed is relative, Ct60 costed 200E, high color graphics we can have
already , better one with video cards, network we have already, and 16bit
sound: dont make me laugh, Falcon can blow Aranyms sound abilities away
anytime.

Djordje Vukovic

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Jan 24, 2004, 1:48:31 PM1/24/04
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On 23 Jan 2004 02:28:23 , ozk AT atari DOT org wrote:

> When you use the Milan, you are an Atarian, cause then you use hardware
>designed to be a TOS machine. When you use the ancient Mac, you are not an
>Atarian, cause it was not designed to be a TOS machine ;-)

Why so rigidly prescribing what is ortodox and what is not ;) What is
wrong with running TOS-compatible OS on a machine which is designed to
run any operating system?

cu;

Djordje Vukovic

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Jan 24, 2004, 1:48:28 PM1/24/04
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Sort of a Turing test, he he :)

Btw. I know that it has been ben stated long ago by a member of the
Aranym team that one of the long-term but low-priority targets would be
to create a cut-down configuration of the host operating system (which
could be installed from a couple of floppy disks) which would boot Aranym
immediately. I think that it would help promote Aranym's cause greatly
if that target was given a higher priority, so tht one can start from
a "clean" machine and simply arrive to an Aranym-only system. For the
purists, one need not call that software "host operating system" at all,
it can be "console firmware system" or something like that, similar to
which exists on some more powerfull machinws which boot a quite
sophisticated "console" before booting the "real" OS.

cu;

o...@atari-rules.org

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Jan 24, 2004, 6:46:45 PM1/24/04
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Nothing, just dont call it a TOS clone, or new TOS hardware.

Misha

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Jan 24, 2004, 7:56:09 PM1/24/04
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On 24-Jan-2004, Janez Valant <s...@atari.org> wrote:

> I guess im not EVERYONE then. Go propagate buying cheap computers (PC)

Sory You are not Everyone,You are Atarian !
and dont speak me about Falcon and Atari !!
I know wery well what can you do with Falcon in 2004 !!!
You can take all acelerator and what you want ,and dont speak me about
motoroala 030,040,060 ! in 2004 !!!
And also you have to know Falcon is far from good sound !!! (motorola DSP
old one ) !!!
And tell me can you go to shop and take new Atari ?
And Linux is damn good OS,far from TOS !!! is not the shame to boot Aranym
with Linux !!!
And you can go to propagate story's about Falcon and something like that
somewhere else !!!
Real Atarians need good and fast machine,not 16,......100Mhz c'mon !!!

Regards Misha !!!

Janez Valant

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Jan 25, 2004, 3:58:06 AM1/25/04
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Misha wrote:


> Sory You are not Everyone,You are Atarian !
> and dont speak me about Falcon and Atari !!
> I know wery well what can you do with Falcon in 2004 !!!

No u dont.

> You can take all acelerator and what you want ,and dont speak me about
> motoroala 030,040,060 ! in 2004 !!!

And why not? they ARE the heart of Ataris. I run website (apache), ftp
server, unix os, and use daily the 030 based machine. And it does all
nicely. The only thing i use PC for and not Atari are newsgroups infact. No
realy good reader for news, and i dont like pine for newsgroups. Knews is
nice, but have issues with sending posts...


> And also you have to know Falcon is far from good sound !!! (motorola DSP
> old one ) !!!

Please dont make fool of your self. Falcon can drive 8 16bit 50khz
channels at same time, with realtime effects, even with "old DSP". It can
play SNDH files, it can play a LOT of trackers, it can play Falcamp, on
CT60 with 2-3% CPU usage, it can play Aniplayer with 6-7% CPU usage (with
ct60), it can play cool ACE softsynth, it cam play FlaySID, it can play
GTracker mods,and so on... Apart from Aniplayer, what of those apps u can
run on Aranym. Also it can use digital out, so u dont need to use bad
quality headphone/mic output. Now name me ONE application from above,
except Aniplayer, which use any of features today good PC cards offer, to
beat Falcon?

> And tell me can you go to shop and take new Atari ?

No u cant sadly. U can't at all. Even if u buy PC, u will not get new
Atari.

> And Linux is damn good OS,far from TOS !!! is not the shame to boot Aranym
> with Linux !!!

Who said Linux is bad or shame? And what TOS has to do with it? Fact is,
if u need to use Linux or Windows as NATIVE OS to run Atari EMULATOR, then
machine is NOT ATARI. And we mainly not use TOS, but Magic or MiNT, which
is btw, nice Unix like os, with comand line unix, ext2, unix networking and
GEM GUI.... And even if u hate TOS, it is ESSENTIAL for booting aranym...

> And you can go to propagate story's about Falcon and something like that
> somewhere else !!!

Realy!? Where, in Amiga group? PC group? Acorm group? Mind u, this IS
Atari group.... U want anyone that not think like you to go away?

> Real Atarians need good and fast machine,not 16,......100Mhz c'mon !!!

Real Atarian uses real Ataris. Even if they have bad points, or not 10GHz
processors. Real Atarian for sure dont yell real Ataris are crap. Real
Atarians dont push ppl to propagate Atari "somewhere else". Real atarian
dont cry and moan if dont have 10ghz, they just use what they have, and
seeing Atari software, they doing it WELL!

But tell me this: what new Aranym brings to scene, apart from speed?
TT/MSTE/Falcon can have GFX cards. Each machine, when introduced, allows
and trigger users to make new and beter apps, using new features those
machine brought... Last year we got ACE, totaly new type of application for
Ataris etc. What NEW Aranym bring us? Its some 30-40% compatible, dont
offer anything new to Atari except speed, which is not something i call
essential. Tell me one Atari application, developed on Aranym, which uses
NEW resources Aranym (not) have, so we can have something new and
revolutionary? Aranym can only run Papillon etc faster, not too good, if u
know ESCPaint or Apex are way better anyway. Does NeoN use any of 3d gfx
power on Aranym? Does Cubase use resources of modern PC Sound cards? Does
new, better software for GEM to use those good resources exist? Can u tell
me one thing Aranym can do and Falcon can not? (mind u, Falcon CAN play
AVi, divx etc, just very slow) I can name u a LOT of Falcon apps which can
NOT run on aranym. I can name u also a LOT of apps which runs on ST/TT and
Falcon (so u cant blame Falcon specifics) which dont run on aranym, and so
on...


Janez

P.S.: to other aranym users: Even if it sound so, im not against aranym, i
realise it may be nice tool, it is very usable and it did start as nice
aproach, it is imho way nicer as MagicPC/Mac and others.. I just dont see
it as Atari machine/hardware. That is all. It is a virtual machine or emu
or simply aranym (altough it only work ok on PC) same as Milan is not
Atari, but GEM compatible. Good one if i may say... And word "GEM
compatible" is not something bad or meant to be bad... its just a fact.

o...@atari-rules.org

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Jan 25, 2004, 3:48:25 AM1/25/04
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You are clearly posting to the wrong newsgroup here. I know perfectly
well, as other also know, what one can do with Atari in 2004. This groups
is about Atari and its OS, not how fast emulation of our OS runs on other
platforms. I think most of us in here are aware of that fact as well.

Misha

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Jan 25, 2004, 6:22:38 AM1/25/04
to

On 25-Jan-2004, Janez Valant <s...@atari.org> wrote:

> he only thing i use PC for and not Atari are newsgroups infact. No
> realy good reader for news, and i dont like pine for newsgroups. Knews is
> nice, but have issues with sending posts...

Try Emailer 2.3 !!! :-) is not bad !

>it can play cool ACE softsynth,

ACE is cool !!!

> And even if u hate TOS, it is ESSENTIAL for booting aranym.

I like TOS so much !!! :)

> Realy!? Where, in Amiga group? PC group? Acorm group? Mind u, this IS
> Atari group.... U want anyone that not think like you to go away?

Sorry !!!

> Real Atarian uses real Ataris. Even if they have bad points, or not 10GHz
> processors. Real Atarian for sure dont yell real Ataris are crap. Real
> Atarians dont push ppl to propagate Atari "somewhere else". Real atarian
> dont cry and moan if dont have 10ghz, they just use what they have, and
> seeing Atari software, they doing it WELL!

For atari is O.K. 16MHz !!! :)


> P.S.: to other aranym users: Even if it sound so, im not against aranym, i
> realise it may be nice tool, it is very usable and it did start as nice
> aproach, it is imho way nicer as MagicPC/Mac and others.. I just dont see
> it as Atari machine/hardware. That is all. It is a virtual machine or emu
> or simply aranym (altough it only work ok on PC) same as Milan is not
> Atari, but GEM compatible. Good one if i may say... And word "GEM
> compatible" is not something bad or meant to be bad... its just a fact.

This is nice ;)

Regards Misha !!!

Didier Méquignon

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Jan 25, 2004, 7:01:50 AM1/25/04
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Misha <mis...@sezampro.yu> wrote:

Humm there are just a big problem with Aranym, a good speed is just for
PC, no JIT for Mac (PPC).

And I hate X86...

I haven't tried Aranym since I have my CT60, I have an Imac G3 500 Mhz
(<=> CT2 under Aranym). With this machine I can compare the speed of the
CT60 to MagiCMac (OS9), same results with DivX movies.
My CT60 with the old DSP has better results with MP3 than Aranym PC ;-)

Regards,

Didier.

--
Didier MEQUIGNON Aniplayer download: http://aniplay.atari.org
Address: 25,rue de l'Ascenseur 62510 Arques FRANCE
Atari FALCON 030/CT 60 10 5 MHz 270Mb/13Gb ~ iMac 500Mhz 320Mb/20Gb

Kenneth Medin

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Jan 25, 2004, 9:43:11 AM1/25/04
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In comp.sys.atari.st <sGKQb.1966$%x4.3...@news.siol.net>

Janez Valant wrote on Sun 25-01-2004 09:58 (+0100):


>nicely. The only thing i use PC for and not Atari are newsgroups infact. No
>realy good reader for news, and i dont like pine for newsgroups. Knews is
>nice, but have issues with sending posts...

>> And Linux is damn good OS,far from TOS !!! is not the shame to boot Aranym


>> with Linux !!!
>
> Who said Linux is bad or shame? And what TOS has to do with it? Fact is,
>if u need to use Linux or Windows as NATIVE OS to run Atari EMULATOR, then
>machine is NOT ATARI. And we mainly not use TOS, but Magic or MiNT, which
>is btw, nice Unix like os, with comand line unix, ext2, unix networking and
>GEM GUI.... And even if u hate TOS, it is ESSENTIAL for booting aranym...

Remember that Linux can run on genuine Atari hardware as well! And, as
you actually need TOS to boot Debian m68k things get a bit complicated...
Is Linux just an emulator running on top of TOS. Is BIOS/XBIOS part of
TOS? etc... I suppose Linux accesses Atari hardware direct, though.

And now comes the funny part... Aranym is present on Debian m68k so in
fact you could perhaps run Aranym on real Atari hardware as well!

There was a discussion if "emulators" should be permitted at the Nordic
Atari Show and I tried to actually run Aranym on my TT :-)

Aranym is available via APT (Advanced Packaging Tool) in m68k and it
installed just fine but exited with errors when I tried to run it...

On the other hand I never got X running in the first place on Woddy but
might give that a try again some time. I have discovered I used wrong
addresses for my video card (et4000) in BOOTARGS:

-s -k linux.bin root=/dev/sdd5 video=external:1024;768;1;n;0xfec00000;;0xfed80300;6;vga;1024

When it (for monochrome) should be?:

-s -k linux.bin root=/dev/sdd5 video=external:1024;768;1;n;0xfec00000;;0xfed00000;6;vga;1024

I would really love to se Aranym running on my TT just for fun... Who
knows, it might be usable as JIT should not be needed :-)


> Real Atarian uses real Ataris. Even if they have bad points, or not 10GHz
>processors. Real Atarian for sure dont yell real Ataris are crap. Real
>Atarians dont push ppl to propagate Atari "somewhere else". Real atarian
>dont cry and moan if dont have 10ghz, they just use what they have, and
>seeing Atari software, they doing it WELL!

From a purist or collectors point of view this is perfectly true. As a
comparison I tend to drive my old DAF car in summer because it is more
fun etc... I would never even dream of building a V8 hot rod that looked
like a Marathon Coupé but is in fact just an external replica...

> But tell me this: what new Aranym brings to scene, apart from speed?

It brings the possibility to get a TOS compatible computer without the
need to search around for old second hand stuff. Eventually all genuine
computers with the Atari label on them will come to a halt. At that time
maybe it will be possible to run Aranym on an IBM compatible emulator or
other kind of virtual machine, who knows...

>P.S.: to other aranym users: Even if it sound so, im not against aranym, i
>realise it may be nice tool, it is very usable and it did start as nice
>aproach, it is imho way nicer as MagicPC/Mac and others.. I just dont see
>it as Atari machine/hardware. That is all. It is a virtual machine or emu
>or simply aranym (altough it only work ok on PC) same as Milan is not
>Atari, but GEM compatible. Good one if i may say... And word "GEM
>compatible" is not something bad or meant to be bad... its just a fact.

This is all true but the distinction between hardware and software is not
at all clear any more! Just think of CT60 that is actually running on
"programmable hardware" whatever that means...

--
Kenneth Medin <kenn...@tripnet.se>
Atari TT at home: http://atari.mine.nu/
<<Produced with 100% pure Atari equipment>>

Peter Slegg

unread,
Jan 25, 2004, 1:10:35 PM1/25/04
to
On 24 Jan 2004 18:48:28 , Djordje Vukovic wrote:
>
>Sort of a Turing test, he he :)
>
>Btw. I know that it has been ben stated long ago by a member of the
>Aranym team that one of the long-term but low-priority targets would be
>to create a cut-down configuration of the host operating system (which
>could be installed from a couple of floppy disks) which would boot Aranym
>immediately. I think that it would help promote Aranym's cause greatly
>if that target was given a higher priority, so tht one can start from
>a "clean" machine and simply arrive to an Aranym-only system. For the
>purists, one need not call that software "host operating system" at all,
>it can be "console firmware system" or something like that, similar to
>which exists on some more powerfull machinws which boot a quite
>sophisticated "console" before booting the "real" OS.
>
>cu;
>.

When I first heard about Aranym I misunderstood what the aim was.
I thought it was going to be a system that provided a method to
boot into a TOS (Mint, Magic etc) system on any hardware without
using an existing, underlying OS.

I am not against Aranym, I just prefer not to have to maintain
two very different OS on the same box.

If the machine boots without ever having to see, understand
or maintain anything about the OS that is bootstrapping the
TOS OS then I might be converted.

Regards,

Peter

Frank Szymanski

unread,
Jan 25, 2004, 12:30:06 PM1/25/04
to
>nicely. The only thing i use PC for and not Atari are newsgroups infact.
>No realy good reader for news, and i dont like pine for newsgroups. Knews is
>nice, but have issues with sending posts...

You should try CAT (freeware) as your newsreader. To be honest CAT was the
main reason why I stayed with my ATARI during the hard years.
So today I am using my ATARIs again for mainly every task not only
newsreading. :-)

BTW, I just released an MP3 Tag editor (http://mpti.factorynews.de) but only
in German language. Are there any volunteers that can translate the .RSC file?

Regards,

Frank

Henk Robbers

unread,
Jan 25, 2004, 5:47:32 PM1/25/04
to
Djordje Vukovic wrote:

Words of wisdom :-)

You can put anything you want in ROM chips.

I have read about a project to flash a Linux kernel into a x86's bios chip.

So is x86 designed to run MS Windows?
Certainly not, as 68K, x86 is a general purpose CPU.

The Atari ST happened to have a OS in its ROM that was written for
x86 in the first place. We have ran x86 software in our precious ataris
for almost 20 years now. ;-)

x86 assembly is nowadays executed by a microcode in the CPU's
Put another microcode (aranym) on top of it and you turn a modern fast
computer into a atari. Or a atari compatible if you wish.

In the early 70's I already worked on a mainframe that could run 2 different
platforms by microcode at the same time. Nobody complained that they
were not genuine.
Quite the opposite, it was generally considered a giant leap forward in
computer technological achievement.

This is true for aranym as well.

All this 'real atari' talk is conservatism that doesnt contribute anything
usefull. Its basically people growing old and remembering the toys of their
youth, forgetting all the harshness and limitations of that time.

--
Groeten; Regards.
Henk Robbers. mailto:h.ro...@chello.nl
http://members.ams.chello.nl/h.robbers/Home.html
Interactive disassembler: TT-Digger; http://digger.atari.org
A Home Cooked teXt editor: AHCX

Brian Roland

unread,
Jan 25, 2004, 6:15:26 PM1/25/04
to
So the moral to this story is....
If you need a computer for mission critical functions, hire a consulting team
and get out of the way!
If they mess it up, fire'um and try someone new ;)
Don't wanna buy the bloat?
Then stop trying to replace all your people with computers....then everyone and
their brother will not be edging into the markets trying to make some sort of a
living on asthetics and nifty factors.

If you just want something to play with and learn on, does it really matter?
If your choice fits your wants and needs....who really cares?

I've enjoyed Atari lore and products most of my life, and will continue to do
so, but lets face it. It's just a BRAND, a symbol, a marketing tool. It's not
a nation. The minds and hearts behind Atari have moved on, and I doubt many of
the lost much sleep over the gradual desentigration of the Fuji brand. So why
should we?

I guess I'm just one of those insane people who doesn't care if Pepsi and Coke
are in the same fridge. Gasp, I've even owned a GM, Ford, Crysler, and Toyota
all at the same time! Have I no loyalties? *last time I checked, all the
companies had great people working for them, some of them living in my own
neighborhood*.

If there's gonna be a civil war....
At least find something worth fighting for, and fighting about.

Brian

Galen

unread,
Jan 26, 2004, 9:18:51 PM1/26/04
to
NOS...@wanadoo.fr (Didier Méquignon) wrote in message

> I haven't tried Aranym since I have my CT60, I have an Imac G3 500 Mhz
> (<=> CT2 under Aranym). With this machine I can compare the speed of the
> CT60 to MagiCMac (OS9), same results with DivX movies.
> My CT60 with the old DSP has better results with MP3 than Aranym PC ;-)
>

Hmmm, more to worry about then. My stock Falcon (with a 44.1KHz clock
added) plays the few test MP3s I have here at 90-120%. My CT60 needs
50-70%. My son's 600Mhz G3 uses about 12% for the same file. Do you
have a sample MP3 file I could download for comparison tests?

Galen (who will eventually take his Linux box out of the closet)

Adam Klobukowski

unread,
Jan 27, 2004, 4:03:45 AM1/27/04
to
On 26 Jan 2004 18:18:51 -0800, Galen <ekal...@mtsac.edu> had a noticeable pleasure while writting:

50-70% for MP3 under CT60? Check if you have DSP activated!

--
Semper Fidelis

Adam Klobukowski
at...@gabo.pl

Petr Stehlik

unread,
Jan 27, 2004, 4:51:54 AM1/27/04
to
On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 18:48:28 +0000, Djordje Vukovic wrote:

> Btw. I know that it has been ben stated long ago by a member of the
> Aranym team that one of the long-term but low-priority targets would be
> to create a cut-down configuration of the host operating system (which
> could be installed from a couple of floppy disks) which would boot Aranym
> immediately.

it's not low-priority. It's the final goal. But in order to get there
the ARAnyM itself needs to be improved a bit, I think.



> I think that it would help promote Aranym's cause greatly if that target
> was given a higher priority, so tht one can start from a "clean" machine
> and simply arrive to an Aranym-only system.

It's possible for quite some time already. You must have missed the
release of ARAnyM/AFROS Live CD. Please find more information at
http://aranym.atari.org/livecd.html

Petr

Petr Stehlik

unread,
Jan 27, 2004, 4:55:02 AM1/27/04
to
On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 18:10:35 +0000, Peter Slegg wrote:

> When I first heard about Aranym I misunderstood what the aim was.
> I thought it was going to be a system that provided a method to
> boot into a TOS (Mint, Magic etc) system on any hardware without
> using an existing, underlying OS.

That's one of the goals, right.

> If the machine boots without ever having to see, understand
> or maintain anything about the OS that is bootstrapping the
> TOS OS then I might be converted.

The current ARAnyM/AFROS Live CD does not hide the underlying Linux kernel
perfectly yet but I believe that it's just a matter of few tweaks to get
it hidden so well that you wouldn't even notice it. Give it a try and be
tolerant to the questions about your mouse and resolution - some things
are not easy to detect automatically.

http://aranym.atari.org/livecd.html

Petr

Petr Stehlik

unread,
Jan 27, 2004, 5:06:00 AM1/27/04
to
On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 13:01:50 +0100, Didier Méquignon wrote:

> And I hate X86...

I used to hate that architecture as well. But later I found out that AMD
was actually doing great CPUs that happened to be compatible with the old
x86 instructions in order to run all existing x86 software - but
internally these Athlon CPUs are completely different than the stuff Intel
produces. Thus I changed my mind and now I favour AMD over Intel. I don't
like Intel, I don't like the old x86 architecture, I hate their assembler
- but I do like the chips the AMD produces and I like to have AMD powered
ARAnyM.

As you can see, even with ARAnyM I am still in the "Intel Outside" camp :)

> My CT60 with the old DSP has better results with MP3 than Aranym PC ;-)

Excuse me but this is a very inaccurate statement. While CT60 is more or
less the same (60-120 MHz), "ARAnyM PC" is completely unknown thing unless
you define the speed of the host PC.

In other words: I can prove that my ARAnyM running on K7@2300 can beat
your CT60 in everything. At the same time, I am sure that my other ARAnyM
running on K5@75 is slower than stock Falcon.

Can you see the difference?

Petr

Petr Stehlik

unread,
Jan 27, 2004, 5:24:11 AM1/27/04
to
On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 09:58:06 +0100, Janez Valant wrote:

> Who said Linux is bad or shame? And what TOS has to do with it? Fact is,
> if u need to use Linux or Windows as NATIVE OS to run Atari EMULATOR, then
> machine is NOT ATARI.

you actually don't need windows or linux. You can adapt EmuTOS or FreeMiNT
to boot on any hardware directly. It would only take hudred thousands of
manhours to do that. Do you have the manpower handy? Working for free?

Do you guys understand the problems we had to decide how to solve them
best when we were designing the ARAnyM? I don't think so.

> And even if u hate TOS, it is ESSENTIAL for booting aranym...

this is not true. AFROS does not use TOS and boots. Also, FreeMiNT can be
extended to boot directly but noone seems to be interested in that.

> But tell me this: what new Aranym brings to scene, apart from speed?
> TT/MSTE/Falcon can have GFX cards. Each machine, when introduced, allows
> and trigger users to make new and beter apps, using new features those
> machine brought... Last year we got ACE, totaly new type of application
> for Ataris etc. What NEW Aranym bring us? Its some 30-40% compatible,
> dont offer anything new to Atari except speed, which is not something i
> call essential. Tell me one Atari application, developed on Aranym,
> which uses NEW resources Aranym (not) have, so we can have something new
> and revolutionary?

Well. I don't want programmers to create applications that would run on
ARAnyM only (as you call it 'revolutional'). This would not help anyone.
There are few remaining software authors left and the only way of
keeping the whole atari scene alive is to produce 100% compatible
software running on most reasonable configurations (ranging probably from
stock Falcon up to the 060 based machines).

> Does NeoN use
> any of 3d gfx power on Aranym? Does Cubase use resources of modern PC
> Sound cards?

I could say "not yet" but judging from the discussion going on here I
think I can safely say "it never will". There doesn't seem to be any
interest from the regular users and without that nothing will happen.

> resources exist? Can u tell me one thing Aranym can do and Falcon can
> not? (mind u, Falcon CAN play AVi, divx etc, just very slow)

this is actually a funny point. You can watch movie on Falcon and you
don't mind that 2 hours movie will take 15 hours to watch :-)

> I can name
> u a LOT of Falcon apps which can NOT run on aranym. I can name u also a
> LOT of apps which runs on ST/TT and Falcon (so u cant blame Falcon
> specifics) which dont run on aranym, and so on...

This is also funny - you measure the power of a particular machine by
counting the applications that are specific for this machine. So Falcon
has about 800 specific applications, compared to ARAnyM, which doesn't
have any app that would be ARAnyM only (since ARAnyM runs all clean
software) - the result is that Falcon is the king while ARAnyM is the
loser.

Frankly, I never thought like that. Maybe I should design a special
application that would run on ARAnyM only. Hmm. Maybe we could hire some
demo group? :-) LOL

Petr

Petr Stehlik

unread,
Jan 27, 2004, 5:30:16 AM1/27/04
to
On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 14:43:11 +0000, Kenneth Medin wrote:
> Remember that Linux can run on genuine Atari hardware as well! And, as
> you actually need TOS to boot Debian m68k things get a bit complicated...

This is not true. LILO was developed long time ago.

> Is Linux just an emulator running on top of TOS.

you are making it even more confusing than it was :)

> And now comes the funny part... Aranym is present on Debian m68k so in
> fact you could perhaps run Aranym on real Atari hardware as well!

sure. The source code is even partially prepared for running on m68k based
machines at full speed of the host CPU (similar to VMware). But there is
noone working on finishing it. Maybe you could join the team and make
ARAnyM running on your TT030 at full speed for the NAS?

> Aranym is available via APT (Advanced Packaging Tool) in m68k and it
> installed just fine but exited with errors when I tried to run it...

what version on what OS? Have you reported an error to Debian BTS? Is
anybody working on fixing it?

> I would really love to se Aranym running on my TT just for fun... Who
> knows, it might be usable as JIT should not be needed :-)

See above. Everything is possible if interested guys start working on it.

> It brings the possibility to get a TOS compatible computer without the
> need to search around for old second hand stuff. Eventually all genuine
> computers with the Atari label on them will come to a halt.

Most folks either don't realize that or are willing to stop using their
favourite OS at that time.

Petr

Petr Stehlik

unread,
Jan 27, 2004, 5:37:42 AM1/27/04