Midi Mega's
Roy Good
with particular reference to the Midi world. I will refrain from posting
my personal opinion of the use of expletives etc in public posting.
The following is the response from Larry Samuels, Atari's corporate VP of
Strategic Markets, who has a special interest in the music market. I quote
it verbatim:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Answer from the "guys at Atari"...
In answer to the recent "FLAME" on USENET regarding Atari's Mega system sales
requirements for music dealers: the Mega 2 and Mega 4 computers CAN be
purchased by music retailers separately from laser printers. The Mega system
sales program described in the message from Keith Hedger pertains to computer
specialty dealers only. One would think that Mr. Hedger would collect his
facts carefully before launching such a vitriolic attack in error. Atari's
commitment to music is strong and constant, and we are very aware of the
increasing need for larger RAM in various music/computer applications.
Mr. Hedger also refers to a $2900.00+ price point for a Mega 2 system. This
statement is greatly in error. The list price of the Mega 2 monochrome system
is $1699.95. Atari appreciates the fervor indicated by Mr. Hedger, and his
obvious concern for our strategic direction and distribution policy. We are
concerned, however, that such misinformation would be placed in a public forum
and accordingly we request that in advance of such statements in the future,
Atari be called and the facts of such perceived policies be confirmed.
"Atari and Music...Catch the Wave"
Larry Samuels
V.P. Strategic Markets, Atari Corporation (U.S.)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Center
> Answer from the "guys at Atari"...
> The Mega system
> sales program described in the message from Keith Hedger pertains to computer
> specialty dealers only. One would think that Mr. Hedger would collect his
> facts carefully before launching such a vitriolic attack in error. Atari's
>
> Larry Samuels
> V.P. Strategic Markets, Atari Corporation (U.S.)
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Hedger's posting states that he talked to two dealers who both had
the understanding he reported. That sounds like sufficient care in
collecting his facts. Unless, that is, you claim he is lying.
The constructive response to Mr. Hedger's posting would have been to
find out who the dealers he talked to were and who at Atari was giving
them the wrong info. Next you should have found out who else had been
given the same impression by this person (or persons, of course) and
contacted them with the correct information.
Atari has a considerable credibility problem in dealer relationships.
On the one hand, it apparently has some policy statements which are
circulated at the vice-presidential level and then it has the _real_
policies which are what the dealers hear from the company. There
appears to be enough inconsistency here to be causing some dealers
to consider abandoning the line.
If I were a _computer_ dealer being told that I have to sell an unwanted
~$2000 item to my customer in order to be allowed to sell him a $1699.95
device he wants while the _music_ dealer a block away doesn't have this
restriction I would be talking to my lawyer or C= Amiga by now.
Thos Sumner (th...@cca.ucsf.edu) BITNET: thos@ucsfcca
(The I.G.) (...ucbvax!ucsfcgl!cca.ucsf!thos)
OS|2 -- an Operating System for puppets.
#include <disclaimer.std>
Mark Brinsmead
> The following is the response from Larry Samuels, Atari's corporate VP of
> Strategic Markets, who has a special interest in the music market. I quote
> it verbatim:
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Answer from the "guys at Atari"...
> In answer to the recent "FLAME" on USENET regarding Atari's Mega system sales
> requirements for music dealers: the Mega 2 and Mega 4 computers CAN be
> purchased by music retailers separately from laser printers. The Mega system
> sales program described in the message from Keith Hedger pertains to computer
> specialty dealers only.
Whoa! Wait a minute. I was going to respond to Mr. Hedger's posting myself,
in the form of a NASTY flame at Atari regarding the foolishness of "bundled"
laser printers. Then I stopped myself, saying "this cannot possibly be the
case -- surely Atari's marketing department cannot be this reckless."
Now it seems (from a *VERY* official source) that if I want a MEGA without
a laser printer, I'm going to have to buy it from a MUSIC store!!! I hope that
this is simply an error in wording on the part of Messrs. Samuels and Good.
The problem is certainly not in MY reading, so maybe its their writing :-)
At the moment, I'm still an impoverished student (income < 15000 p.a.) so
chances are, I'll have to wait awhile before getting a MEGA 4, and just suffer
with my 1040. (that or sell my car.)
However, when I do buy a new system, I will almost certainly *NOT* want to
by a laser printer to go with it, and will definitely not want to but an
ATARI laser printer. No offence, it just does not and cannot suit my needs.
Besides, I have access to laser printers in my office (and I won't likely take
a job anywhere that I won't have such access).
Besides this, laser printer technology is OLD and OBSOLETE (I'm told)
and overpriced as well. The new solid state technologies are claimed to be
both cheaper and more reliable (at least according to BYTE, as far as you
can believe that...). I feel that if Atari tries this bundling stunt, they
will very possibly be jeopardizing sales of a very worthy product (namely
the Mega ST's) simply for the sake of unloading a large stock (?) of printers
which would have sold just fine, if they had hit the market when promised.
> One would think that Mr. Hedger would collect his
> facts carefully before launching such a vitriolic attack in error.
I certainly hope (for Atari's sake) that the basis for MY posting is
also erroneous (in which case I will happily retract any unkind statements
I may have made). While *my* information is an official (i think) statement
of one of atari's vice-presidents, my main complaint is with a single
sentence which may have simply been stated incorrectly. Perhaps somebody
out there will clear this matter up by telling us what Atari's officials
policy regarding laser printers IS, rather than what it IS NOT.
> ... Atari appreciates the fervor indicated by Mr. Hedger, and his
> obvious concern for our strategic direction and distribution policy. We are
> concerned, however, that such misinformation would be placed in a public forum
You have ever right for concern, and in fact, probably deserve an appology.
> and accordingly we request that in advance of such statements in the future,
> Atari be called and the facts of such perceived policies be confirmed.
>
What's the number? Perhaps spreading it around will prevent future errors.
Myron Drapal
> with particular reference to the Midi world. I will refrain from posting
> my personal opinion of the use of expletives etc in public posting.
I have to say that I don't go for those kinds of words in a USENET posting,
but I sure can identify with the frustration that was behind that
posting. And to have someone at Atari complaining about this is a little
odd (don't you have more important work to do, Mr. Good?. It seems that the
only way lately to get you, or anyone else at Atari, to comment, is to
use these words...)
>
> The following is the response from Larry Samuels, Atari's corporate VP of
> Strategic Markets, who has a special interest in the music market. I quote
> it verbatim:
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Answer from the "guys at Atari"...
> In answer to the recent "FLAME" on USENET regarding Atari's Mega system sales
> requirements for music dealers: the Mega 2 and Mega 4 computers CAN be
> purchased by music retailers separately from laser printers. The Mega system
> sales program described in the message from Keith Hedger pertains to computer
> specialty dealers only.
Why should they be "punished" (e.g. forced to purchase an over-priced, under-
featured laser printer and then try to foist it onto an unsuspecting customer)?
If the laser printer is such a dog (as it seems to be), why don't you "guys
at Atari" just shut up and eat them quietly?
> We are
> concerned, however, that such misinformation would be placed in a public forum
> and accordingly we request that in advance of such statements in the future,
> Atari be called and the facts of such perceived policies be confirmed.
I just couldn't let this one go without a chuckle ;-)... Atari, the premier
company of vaporware and "misinformation", criticizing someone for the same.
>
> "Atari and Music...Catch the Wave"
> Larry Samuels
> V.P. Strategic Markets, Atari Corporation (U.S.)
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Catch the Wave"? Yes, catch the wave and wave bye-bye to Atari...
Myron Drapal
AT&T Denver
ihnp4!druhi!med
Mark Brinsmead
> In article <10...@atari.UUCP>, go...@atari.UUCP (Roy Good) writes:
> > We are
> > concerned, however, that such misinformation would be placed in a public forum
> > and accordingly we request that in advance of such statements in the future,
> > Atari be called and the facts of such perceived policies be confirmed.
>
> I just couldn't let this one go without a chuckle ;-)... Atari, the premier
> company of vaporware and "misinformation", criticizing someone for the same.
>
Say, good point. Of course, no matter how bad certain corporate entities
might be in this regard, it should not really justify rude or thoughtless
criticism. On the other hand, they have had some pretty (dare I say it?)
st*pid (they probably can't sue me for that) policies in the past, and its
looking as though things may be getting worse, not better.
Well, now that I've had my two cents worth, I think I'll just stay out
of this discussion, at least until Atari *REALLY* confirms (or hopefully,
denies) this rumour (about the laser printers).
Steven Grimm
>
>Oh, and today I got a call from Sig Hartmann at Atari, <fill in today's
>title here> telling me that I'm "no longer allowed to make negative statements
>on USENET" and that he "is my sole contact for Atari related communications".
That's outrageous! Who died and made Atari God? You may have a different
developer status than I do, but I never signed anything saying that I wouldn't
badmouth Atari. In my opinion, you're perfectly justified if you laugh in
his face next time you see him. That was a very rude and unprofessional
thing for him to do (though I suppose I don't want to place the blame on
Sig without evidence -- he could have been instructed by a sinister higher-up
in the company...)
---
These are my opinions, and in no way reflect those of UCSC, which are wrong.
Steven Grimm Moderator, comp.{sources,binaries}.atari.st
kor...@ssyx.ucsc.edu ...!ucbvax!ucscc!ssyx!koreth
Ken Badertscher
>
>>... Atari appreciates the fervor indicated by Mr. Hedger, and his
>>obvious concern for our strategic direction and distribution policy. We are
>>concerned, however, that such misinformation would be placed in a public forum
>
> You have ever right for concern, and in fact, probably deserve an appology.
>
>>and accordingly we request that in advance of such statements in the future,
>>Atari be called and the facts of such perceived policies be confirmed.
>
> What's the number? Perhaps spreading it around will prevent future errors.
Ken Badertscher
Atari Software Test/Support
(kb...@atari.UUCP)
--
Ken Badertscher |
Atari Software Test/Support |
kb...@atari.UUCP |
Dan Moore
> Oh, and today I got a call from Sig Hartmann at Atari, <fill in today's
> title here> telling me that I'm "no longer allowed to make negative statements
> on USENET" and that he "is my sole contact for Atari related communications".
> you're all witnesses!
>
> It would be different if I was giving out proprietary information - but
> we're talking about non-technical opinions. This is America Jack!
Your not the only person who Atari has tried to keep quiet.
About 2 years ago Neil Harris told the sysops on one of the commercial
networks that if I didn't stop "harassing" him online he would quit showing
up. They wouldn't have a "official represenative of Atari" online anymore.
I was sent a copy of his email along with a note saying I could do what
I wanted. I continued to comment on his postings so he left for a two
months or so.
About the time he returned I started ignoring all postings from
all Atari represenatives on the networks. None of what they were saying
was worth the time it took to read it. How much vaporware can you be
expected to put up with?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Moore
AT&T Denver
ihnp4!druhi!dlm
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clif Swinford
>
>Oh, and today I got a call from Sig Hartmann at Atari, <fill in today's
>title here> telling me that I'm "no longer allowed to make negative statements
>on USENET" and that he "is my sole contact for Atari related communications".
If this outrageous and illegal crap is true (giving you a chance to back
out of it, Sig!) then Atari, who have had my wholehearted support for
eight years now, have just lost it.
Keep in mind that you (Atari) have relied on word-of-mouth to sell your
ST's, and my mouth has been as wordy as any. But I and hundreds of others
will be spreading poison on your reputation (the poison you apply yourself)
if ANY action is taken against Mr. Beckemeyer or BDT.
In the United States we are guaranteed the freedom to express our opinions.
If the Government were to ask someone what you're asking Beckemeyer it would
be a Federal crime. As it is, it is deeply deplorable and scummy.
Yes, David is a pain in the ass. Tough. Everyone has critics, and those
critics have a right to hold and express opinions. Unless you can find
something illegal in his statements, I recommend that you shut up and
behave like adults.
--
Clif Swinford
"This is not a dress rehearsal. It's a f***ing audition!"
..!tektronix!reed!percival!actor fnord
Barnacle Wes
> Oh, and today I got a call from Sig Hartmann at Atari, <fill in today's
> title here> telling me that I'm "no longer allowed to make negative statements
> on USENET" and that he "is my sole contact for Atari related communications".
> you're all witnesses!
Better be careful, Dave - Sig may blast you with that (in)famous
"Atari patented Vapor Blaster" and turn you into VaporWare too! BTW,
do you have the News software to go along with UUCP for MT-Cshell? I
think a GEM-based news reader could be kindof nice, especially one
based on `rn'.
--
{uwmcsd1, hpda}!sp7040!obie!wes | "If I could just be sick, I'd be fine."
+1 801 825 3468 | -- Joe Housely --
da implem
>
> called any of us before spewing out TOTALLY FALSE statements? And even
[some stuff deleted for brevity]
> title here> telling me that I'm "no longer allowed to make negative statements
> on USENET" and that he "is my sole contact for Atari related communications".
> It would be different if I was giving out proprietary information - but
> we're talking about non-technical opinions. This is America Jack!
Dear David,
I can fully understand why Atari is peeved at you over the tenor of
your USENET postings, and I can appreciate the reasons that you have for
being peeved at Atari. I am tempted, at times, to simply skip over any
and all of your postings, but I don't, for one major reason. You are
demonstrably a very experienced and knowledgeable Atari ST user, programmer,
and developer. This gives TREMENDOUS weight to what you have to say
in response to technical questions, support issues/problem areas, and
how Atari and the ST is viewed within the large and growing readership of
this newsgroup. So, I don't skip them, and I end up wading through an
incredible morass of hate/kill Atari postings. Perhaps, you feel some
satisfaction of getting a little bit "of your own" back by harming Atari
Corp. sales so far as you are able. As for, "this is America Jack", you
are absolutely right that you have the right to pubicly air your opinions;
however, that right may be limitted in cases where, by dent of your
position, influence, access, etc., you materially exert an improper influence
causing culpable harm, which then may be to wit actionable.
My own experience with the 1040 ST, color monitor, Supra 20MB hard
disk, Panasonic 1080i printer, has been EXTREMELY positive. The machine
has more than paid for itself; or, I should say, I have produced enough
work, dollar savings, and income to more than offset the investment price
of the equipment. And, I personally feel that a few more articles stressing
the good features, successes, configurations, and software package benefits,
along with constructive criticisms would do more good and benefit for the
readers of this group, for ST users and owners, and for Atari Corp., than
any quantity of the foaming-at-the-mouth hysterics that we have been
subjected to.
Sincerly Yours,
Chuck Werner
--
Invention is 10 percent inspiration and 90 percent persperation. -- T.A.Edison
"Oh, Mr. McCandles, why I thought you was dead." -- Hotel Clerk
"Not hardly" -- The Duke
Mark Brinsmead
> in article <16...@vaxb.calgary.UUCP>, brin...@calgary.UUCP (Mark Brinsmead) says:
[a bit of deleted text]
> >
> >>and accordingly we request that in advance of such statements in the future,
> >>Atari be called and the facts of such perceived policies be confirmed.
> >
> > What's the number? Perhaps spreading it around will prevent future errors.
>
> Folks at Atari Corporation can be reached at (408) 745-2000 in the US.
>
Wow! I didn't really believe that I'd get a real answer to that question.
Thanks, Ken. (Too bad its not a toll-free number, but it would likely do me
little good here in Canada anyway.)
Perhaps now we can get somebody at Atari to make an official and definitive
statement regarding their policies with respect to the Megas and the Laser
Printer. I just called the number above, and my call seems to have been forwarded
to /dev/null (i.e. a busy signal, then a broken connection). I guess that until
I try once more (I'm an underpaid student and can't afford expensive long-
distance calls) I shall refrain from calling such policy "brain-damaged",
"mindless", "suicidal" or anything else nasty. (At least I tried!)
(I'm still hoping to hear an official denial of Atari's rumoured policy to
sell Laser Printers bundled with ALL Mega ST's except at music stores, so
that I can safely avoid the necessity of actually using all these nasty
words and phrases that I have thought up...)
In any event, it is (genuinely) nice to see Atari again responding with
resonable answers to reasonable (albeit inconsequential) questions. Now,
lets get some REAL answers...
Atari: Am I, or am I not, expected to purchase a laser printer with my
next computer, even though I do not want one?
Neil Harris
> Your not the only person who Atari has tried to keep quiet.
> About 2 years ago Neil Harris told the sysops on one of the commercial
> networks that if I didn't stop "harassing" him online he would quit showing
> up. They wouldn't have a "official represenative of Atari" online anymore.
> I was sent a copy of his email along with a note saying I could do what
> I wanted. I continued to comment on his postings so he left for a two
> months or so.
Thanks, Dan.
What *really* happened was that there was quite a bit of name calling going
on. Dan seemed to have blamed me personally for some financial woes
connected with the takeover of Atari. He lost quite a bit of money because
the contract with Synapse for Synfile (which Dan co-wrote) was dropped.
Now I think it's a shame that Dan ran into this kind of problem. But he
knew darn well that I had nothing to do with it (the problem occurred before
I even joined Atari), but he was using me as a convenient scapegoat. So I
asked the sysops to get a handle on the namecalling. That's a sysop's job.
Once Dan and I met personally, I think he calmed down a bit and realized
that I was not some ogre out to get him.
Maybe we ought to get together again so he won't forget.
Most of the professional online systems won't put up with that sort of
thing. It's a free country, thank goodness -- but paying users of an online
system tend to object to that kind of stuff.
--->Neil
PS: I'm starting a sideline. Tee shirts with concentric circles on the back
and flames on the front. Maybe a slogan -- "I've Been Flamed on the
Net".
Send your checks to:
--
Neil Harris, Director of Sales & Marketing -- East and Midwest Regions
UUCP: ...{hoptoad, lll-lcc, pyramid, imagen, sun}!atari!neil
GEnie: NHARRIS, BIX: neilharris, CIS: 70007,1135, Office: 408-745-2160
Fred R. Goldstein
>In article <3...@bdt.UUCP>, da...@bdt.UUCP (David Beckemeyer) writes:
>>
>> You said it loud and clear! When was the last time Atari Corp. ever
>> called any of us before spewing out TOTALLY FALSE statements? And even
>[some stuff deleted for brevity]
>are absolutely right that you have the right to pubicly air your opinions;
>however, that right may be limitted in cases where, by dent of your
>position, influence, access, etc., you materially exert an improper influence
>causing culpable harm, which then may be to wit actionable.
>
> My own experience with the 1040 ST, color monitor, Supra 20MB hard
>disk, Panasonic 1080i printer, has been EXTREMELY positive. The machine
Mr. Werner, please do not create new libel laws where none exist.
Mr. Beckemeyer's statements are actionable if he a) violates a contract
he had with Atari to not criticize them or divulge certain information
which he then divulges (and I doubt such a contrcat exists, but for
the sake of argument I'll admit the possibility), or b) he commits
libel. Now libel involves knowingly making a public false statement
that causes harm. If I say something that causes harm but it's true,
then it's not actionable. If I say something false but it's harmless,
then any libel judgement would be rather limited! If I say something
false and cause harm, then I'm potentially in trouble.
Consult a lawyer for details; I remember the above from my undergrad
Con Law classes.
Dave, keep up the good work!
--
(usual disclaimers)
Dan Moore
>
> In article <31...@druhi.ATT.COM>, d...@druhi.ATT.COM (Dan Moore) writes:
>
>> Your not the only person who Atari has tried to keep quiet.
>> About 2 years ago Neil Harris told the sysops on one of the commercial
>> networks that if I didn't stop "harassing" him online he would quit showing
>> up. They wouldn't have a "official represenative of Atari" online anymore.
>> I was sent a copy of his email along with a note saying I could do what
>> I wanted. I continued to comment on his postings so he left for a two
>> months or so.
>
> Thanks, Dan.
>
> What *really* happened was that there was quite a bit of name calling going
> on. Dan seemed to have blamed me personally for some financial woes
> connected with the takeover of Atari. He lost quite a bit of money because
> the contract with Synapse for Synfile (which Dan co-wrote) was dropped.
but since you have:
Atari did drop the contract. After accepting delivery on
11,000+ pieces which they sold. There was a two and a half year delay
before Atari paid for the 11,000+ pieces of SynFile+. There were also
similar numbers of SynCalc and SynTrend involved plus monies for R&D
work Synapse was doing. Synapse sued for the $4 million owed plus about
to $50 million in damages. Atari settled out of court 2 and a half years
later, just prior to going public.
> Now I think it's a shame that Dan ran into this kind of problem. But he
> knew darn well that I had nothing to do with it (the problem occurred before
> I even joined Atari), but he was using me as a convenient scapegoat. So I
> asked the sysops to get a handle on the namecalling. That's a sysop's job.
Our discussion on the services had nothing to do with Atari's
actions with SynFile. It was in reference to statements you were
making on Delphi about Atari and Atari products. Many of those messages
are still online (they store messages for a very long time) so if people
are interested they can read them there.
The statement that got Neil mad and caused him to ask the Sysops
to intervine was me saying that one of his statements was untrue. He
asked the Sysops to censor me and/or have me removed from the system or
he would leave. They took no action other than forwarding me a copy of
his email to them.
> Once Dan and I met personally, I think he calmed down a bit and realized
> that I was not some ogre out to get him.
>
> Maybe we ought to get together again so he won't forget.
I never thought Neil was an "ogre out to get me", I think he is
a person who is willing to take a job that I and many others wouldn't be
willing to do. Not many people would be willing to act as a front for
Atari or the people who run it. I dislike "Neil Harris, Atari spokesperson",
"Neil Harris, private citizen" is a fairly nice person.
> Most of the professional online systems won't put up with that sort of
> thing. It's a free country, thank goodness -- but paying users of an online
> system tend to object to that kind of stuff.
The only objections to my statements were from you. None of the
users had any complaints.
This is all ancient history, the only reason I mentioned the
event was to point out that David Beckemeyer was not the only person Atari
had attempted to censor. I hope Atari starts listening to their users
and developers complaints instead of just listening to the compliments.
Asking (or telling) developers to quit complaining isn't going to make
things any better. If they continue the way they are the ST, and it's
promise of "Power without the price" will disappear.
Julius OKLAMCAK
brin...@calgary.UUCP (Mark Brinsmead) says:
>[etc]
>
> Atari: Am I, or am I not, expected to purchase a laser printer with my
> next computer, even though I do not want one?
Mark, since you are in Canada, I can answer that for you. :-)
No. (At least in Canada - I don't know about other countries).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julius Oklamcak "Look Maw, it works!"
Atari (Canada) Corp. - somewhere
(416) 479-1266 - someone
...!utzoo!yunexus!yugas!julius
/* Usual Disclaimer */
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Joubert
Some people are "making a mountain out of a molehill". The fact is that the
dealer does NOT have to buy a laser printer for EACH Mega, all he has to
do is buy A ( as in one ) laser printer to carry the Mega line, that's all.
That means a vendor he can sell all the mega's he wants with JUST ONE LASER
PRINTER in his whole store! True, even the restriction of having to buy
one laser printer that a vendor may not want is controversial policy, but it
is certainly not what a few people are trying to make out of this.
I can go into town to my local dealers' ( not a musician's store ) and buy a
Mega2 or Mega4 , and sure enough, there is a laser printer there, but I don't
have to buy it!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Joubert | /\ | /\ | _
jpdr...@usl-pc.USL or ... | \|<>|>|> \|<>|>|><`|`|
ut-sally!usl!usl-pc!jpdres13 |-----/|-------/|----------------------
GEnie: J.JOUBERT | \/ \/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Brinsmead
> ------------------------
>
> Some people are "making a mountain out of a molehill". The fact is that the
> dealer does NOT have to buy a laser printer for EACH Mega, all he has to
> do is buy A ( as in one ) laser printer to carry the Mega line, that's all.
>
> That means a vendor he can sell all the mega's he wants with JUST ONE LASER
Now THIS is what I was wanting (and sort of half expecting) to hear! Why
on Earth couldn't somebody at Atari has told us this to begin with, and
put an end to all the foolishness? (Assuming, of course, that *this* posting
is correct :-) ) I still haven't gotten any useful info from the phone
number the atari guys posted awhile ago, but I'll be happy to leave the
issue at this.
Brett Person
Atari is yelling because someone didn't have THEIR faxts straight?
Anybody remember the announcement by Atari about a video game you
could control with your mind? I'm not kidding about this, I
think Isaw a blurb about it on CNN a couple of years ago.
One of the reasons I don't own an ST is because of Atari's consistantly
strange behavior in making satements to the press.
--
Brett G. Person
North Dakota State University
uunet!ndsuvax!ncperson | ncpe...@ndsuvax.bitnet