TT desktop & prices
Tomas Felner
here in Switzerland.
What impressed me most and what seems not to be known so far to the general
public, is the new TT desktop. Do you like shells like NeoDesk and Gemini?
Well, now you can have most of their functionality on your TT, in the
official Atari TT TOS. Here are some first impressions from the new desktop
after playing around with the TT for about an hour:
- quite a few new menu entries have been added in the desktop
- most (or all?) menu entries can be invoked with a single keystroke and
those keys are user configurable
- you can assign a full pathname to the function keys and thus invoke your
favourite programs with a single function key keystroke
- you can now have an unsorted index (nice for auto folders)
- you can choose the background color from a menu entry
- there's a menu entry 'Desktop Configuration' where you can set and
configure quite a few things, which I don't all remember
- you can select a number of logical drives and then search for a
file/folder on all those drives. When the search was successfull, a
window with the file/folder opens. And this search is very fast!
- you can read another .INF file and thus change the look of the desktop
- you can switch between several different color tables
- you can have a different border, text and background color for each part
of a window (like close button, expand button, title bar, vertical scrollbar,
left arrow, up arrow, etc ...)
- you can drag any files on the desktop, leave them there, assign different
icons to them, and give them different names (i.e. move the 1stWord icon to
the upper left corner, change the icon to something cute looking, and name
it "Wordprocessor")
- those icons apparently can be edited somehow and you can add you own ones
(I didn't see this but someone told me)
- there's a completely new control accessory with many new options
- there's a new and fast GDOS
- and probably there's a lot more I didn't find out about ...
I really liked all those new features. I am only surprised that no one ever
mentioned this so far. How come? The version I played with was in German.
Maybe it's a product of Atari Germany and not yet available in English, but
I have no idea? Anyway, congratulations to those Atari hackers (Ken, Alan ?)
who came up with this!!!
But now for the big question: Are those poor users who cannot afford to get a
TT also going to see this new desktop on their 520, 1040 and Megas? If the
answer is yes, when is this going to be the case?
And here comes an answer to the question 'How much will I pay for a TT?'.
The following are the official prices from Atari Switzerland. The TT is
supposed to start selling these days here in Switzerland (and also in
Germany I think). (US$ 1.- = SFr. 1.30)
Basic set: TT, 68030, 32MHz, 40MB disk, 720KB floppy, mouse, keyboard
Basic set with 4MB: SFr. 4990.- (US$ 3850.-)
6MB: SFr. 5690.- (US$ 4380.-)
8MB: SFr. 6290.- (US$ 4850.-)
Extra: PTC1426 Multysync color screen, 14" SFr 990.- (US$ 760.-)
PTM146 Monochrome screen, 14" SFr 330.- (US$ 250.-)
TTM194 Monochrom screen, 19", 1280x960 SFr 1890.- (US$ 1450.-)
So a 4MB, multisync system is approx US$ 4600.-
a 8MB, multisync system is approx US$ 5600.-
Now I am curious about the reactions to all this information ... :-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tomas Felner, fel...@inf.ethz.ch
Disclaimer: I am not affiliated to Atari at all. I am just a user who
reports to the net what he has seen on a big trade show in Switzerland.
Bob_BobR...@cup.portal.com
>Disclaimer: I am not affiliated to Atari at all. I am just a user who
>reports to the net what he has seen on a big trade show in Switzerland.
Since Atari won't tell us anything at all about the TT, it's good to hear
a report from a "real person"...
It sounds as if the new desktop will be very nice... I too am surprised
we've never heard about those features before.
Maybe when a "real person" actually gets hold of a TT, we'll know more...
BobR
Allan Pratt
>It sounds as if the new desktop will be very nice... I too am surprised
>we've never heard about those features before.
You haven't heard about the new desktop, because if you'd heard about
it you'd have wanted it yesterday. We decided that, for a change,
Atari would arrange for something good to be DONE and SHIPPING before
you (collectively) heard about it. This is the opposite of vaporware.
Like it?
============================================
Opinions expressed above do not necessarily -- Allan Pratt, Atari Corp.
reflect those of Atari Corp. or anyone else. ...ames!atari!apratt
enthalpy
Bob_BobR...@cup.portal.com writes:
>It sounds as if the new desktop will be very nice... I too am surprised
>we've never heard about those features before.
You haven't heard about the new desktop, because if you'd heard about
it you'd have wanted it yesterday. We decided that, for a change,
Atari would arrange for something good to be DONE and SHIPPING before
you (collectively) heard about it. This is the opposite of vaporware.
Like it?
Like it? I LOVE it! Keep up this policy of not releasing full
product info before the product is released. It will definitely help
get rid of Atari's reputation for vaporware.
Internet: ncast...@eagle.wesleyan.edu || ent...@ai.mit.edu
Bitnet: ncast...@wesleyan.bitnet
Citadel: Sinkhole!dEADHEAd [@mast.citadel.moundst.mn.org]
Sniktnet: snikt!entropy
douglas mclaggan
>in article <66...@neptune.inf.ethz.ch>, fel...@b.inf.ethz.ch (Tomas Felner) says:
>> But now for the big question: Are those poor users who cannot afford to get a
>> TT also going to see this new desktop on their 520, 1040 and Megas? If the
>> answer is yes, when is this going to be the case?
>>
>Unfortunately, we don't have enough ROM space to fit everything together.
>Just for your information, the new desktop is 22k bigger than the old one.
>Anyway, we may need a little bit more time or even a miracle in order to
>squeeze every extra bits into the 192K ROM. We will try!
^^^^^^^^^^^^
What about the STE, Derek? There was no mention of that. I was just
wondering if you'll be trying to put the new desktop in there?
It's got a 256K ROM with about 30K spare, as far as I know.
That sounds about enough space, doesn't it!!!
I suppose that with this new policy of Atari's, if you're busy coding up
the new STE desktop, you won't be able to let us know 'til it's finish and
shipping. Right? :-)
Keeping my fingers crossed...
Dougie.
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Dougie McLaggan. ->->-> 'dou...@cernvax.cern.ch', or 'dou...@cs.hw.ac.uk' |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Marshall Vale
> Atari would arrange for something good to be DONE and SHIPPING before
> you (collectively) heard about it. This is the opposite of vaporware.
> Like it?
Yup, I like it very much. But I wonder from your message does that mean
the TT is ready? (Note: question not really directed to you Alan just
more towards the air :-)
Thankfully, the one thing my Atari has taught me is patience.
BTW, the desktop really sounds great! The TT seems to be shaping up
very well!
Marshall
Tomas Felner
>In article <22...@atari.UUCP> m...@atari.UUCP (Derek Mui) writes:
>> We would love to put the new desktop in the above machines.
>>Unfortunately, we don't have enough ROM space to fit everything together.
>>Just for your information, the new desktop is 22k bigger than the old one.
>>Anyway, we may need a little bit more time or even a miracle in order to
>>squeeze every extra bits into the 192K ROM. We will try!
>
>How about a solution that involves this space? Then you would also have enough
>space to add GDOS to the TOS ...
Someone just convinced me that it might not be such a good solution to put
it in the ROM port space because of copy protection problems and more. So
how about an official RAM version of the desktop that loads from the auto
folder and replaces the TOS 1.4 desktop? How big is this desktop anyway? If
people are willing to use up RAM for NeoDesk, Gemini and alike, why not for
an official Atari replacement (which I believe is smaller that those other
ones)?
Tomas Felner, fel...@inf.ethz.ch
Derek Mui
>
> What about the STE, Derek? There was no mention of that. I was just
> wondering if you'll be trying to put the new desktop in there?
> It's got a 256K ROM with about 30K spare, as far as I know.
> That sounds about enough space, doesn't it!!!
>
> I suppose that with this new policy of Atari's, if you're busy coding up
> the new STE desktop, you won't be able to let us know 'til it's finish and
> shipping. Right? :-)
>
Thank you for all the people who suggested different ideas of how to
squeeze the new desktop into the ST ROM. Someone suggested to use the cartridge
port and most of the others suggested to put it on the disk. Technically, they
are all O.K, and I will reflect all the opinions to management people.
As of today, I believe the STE will have the new desktop.
^^^^^^^^^^^
==================================================================
Derek Mui, Atari Corp, 1196 Borregas Ave, Sunnyvale, CA 94086
UUCP: {..ames!atari!mui}
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed here are my own and they may be
hazardous to your mind.
==================================================================
Derek Mui
> here in Switzerland.
>
> What impressed me most and what seems not to be known so far to the general
> public, is the new TT desktop.
>
> TT also going to see this new desktop on their 520, 1040 and Megas? If the
> answer is yes, when is this going to be the case?
>
We would love to put the new desktop in the above machines.
Unfortunately, we don't have enough ROM space to fit everything together.
Just for your information, the new desktop is 22k bigger than the old one.
Anyway, we may need a little bit more time or even a miracle in order to
squeeze every extra bits into the 192K ROM. We will try!
==================================================================
Derek Mui, Atari Corp, 1196 Borregas Ave, Sunnyvale, CA 94086
UUCP: {..ames!atari!mui}
FAX: 408-745-4306
Tomas Felner
>Unfortunately, we don't have enough ROM space to fit everything together.
>Just for your information, the new desktop is 22k bigger than the old one.
>Anyway, we may need a little bit more time or even a miracle in order to
>squeeze every extra bits into the 192K ROM. We will try!
Well, after all there's a ROM port with an extra 128K of ROM address space.
How about a solution that involves this space? Then you would also have enough
space to add GDOS to the TOS ...
Tomas Felner, fel...@inf.ethz.ch
Allan Pratt
>In article <22...@atari.UUCP> apr...@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) writes:
>> We decided that, for a change,
>> Atari would arrange for something good to be DONE and SHIPPING before
>> you (collectively) heard about it. This is the opposite of vaporware.
>> Like it?
> -- Allan Pratt, Atari Corp.
> Yup, I like it very much. But I wonder from your message does that mean
>the TT is ready? (Note: question not really directed to you Alan just
>more towards the air :-)
The TT is available. It is on dealers' shelves in Germany. We had an
extra push to get the German market supplied in time for the Atari
fair in Dusseldorf. (It was a big success!) Now that that's over we
are building TT's for the rest of the world, too. I can't speak to
delivery dates; ask our PR flaks.
James D Yegerlehner
>
> The TT is available. It is on dealers' shelves in Germany. We had an
> extra push to get the German market supplied in time for the Atari
So my question is, will Byte review it and put it on the front cover,
as they did with the Amiga 68030 whatever-it-is? Maybe you guys at
Atari should send them one.
Jim
Ed Krimen
- We would love to put the new desktop in the above machines.
- Unfortunately, we don't have enough ROM space to fit everything
- together. Just for your information, the new desktop is 22k bigger
- than the old one. Anyway, we may need a little bit more time or
- even a miracle in order to squeeze every extra bits into the 192K
- ROM. We will try!
We really appreciate the effort.
However, from what I hear, there are guys in Europe who have done
this already, putting more stuff in the 192K ROMs even with the
desktop. Is there any chance you could do some consulting and get
their techniques? Thought not. :^( Wouldn't it be SO much better
though?
Brad Martin
My god... I think I am going to faint. Atari not announcing something (new
desktop) at least a year before bringing it out.
Congratulations, I am very proud of you. :-)
.>Brad Martin<.
Cute tag lines on request.
Ralph P. Sobek
| Unfortunately, we don't have enough ROM space to fit everything together.
| Just for your information, the new desktop is 22k bigger than the old one.
Just a naive question, no flames please! Wouldn't the *new* desktop
fit into those Mega STs that use the 2 ROM chip set? Isn't there some
space in those ROM chips? Or couldn't larger ROM chips work?
Thanks to all!
--
Ralph P. Sobek Disclaimer: The above ruminations are my own.
ra...@laas.fr Addresses are ordered by importance.
ra...@laas.uucp, or ...!uunet!laas!ralph
If all else fails, try: so...@eclair.Berkeley.EDU
===============================================================================
Reliable software should kill people reliably! -Andy Mickel, Pascal News #13,78
Graham Thomas
> in article <22...@atari.UUCP>, m...@atari.UUCP (Derek Mui) says:
>>
>> As of today, I believe the STE will have the new desktop.
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
> STE. Sorry.
>
Interesting! If Atari now doesn't announce products until they're ready
for shipping, and Derek has just let slip something about a Mega STE,
then the Mega STE must be ready for shipping, right?
I WANT IT YESTERDAY! :-) (Sorry Allan - couldn't resist that.)
In fact, I probably don't want it, as it probably costs lots more than
my plain ol' STE. I can probably even do without the new desktop if
NeoDesk 3 is as good as it sounds. But maybe other people would like
the option of fitting the new ROMs into their existing STEs. I might
even like to do this myself, as I have the oldest (July 89) version of
TOS 1.6. In fact, thinking about it..
I WANT TT ROMS RETROFITTED TO MY STE YESTERDAY!!
Oh dear, you've opened a can of worms there, Derek. We're never
satisfied, are we? (Sometimes with good reason, though.)
Now, about this sixty-four/sixty-four machine someone mentioned...
:-)
Cheers,
Graham
--
Graham Thomas, SPRU, Mantell Building, U of Sussex, Brighton, BN1 9RF, UK
JANET: gra...@uk.ac.sussex.syma BITNET: grahamt%syma.sussex.ac.uk@UKACRL
INTERNET: grahamt%syma.sus...@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk
UUCP: grahamt%syma....@ukc.uucp PHONE: +44 273 686758 FAX: [..] 685865
Scott Hood
Allan,
Could you please go over the hardware specs of the new TT for all of us
uninformed? Is the TT's cpu a 68030-33 running at 32Mhz? What speed is
the memory system running at (16Mhz or 32Mhz)? What about the video
improvements of the TT - could you tell us about the resolutions and
palette? What is the different configurations and prices for the US of
the TT? Thanks for any information you can come up with!
Scott Hood
--
--
Scott Hood, Hardware Design Engineer (A3000 Crew), Commodore-Amiga, Inc.
{uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!hood ho...@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com
"The views expressed here are not necessarily those of my employer!"
Ray Depew x2419
>Atari would arrange for something good to be DONE and SHIPPING before
>you (collectively) heard about it. This is the opposite of vaporware.
>Like it?
LOVE IT! How refreshing! I may even stop looking at A3000's and keep
my ST around for a while if this keeps up.
Does this represent a new attitude at Atari Corp., or just in your corner
of the lab? We applaud "your corner of the lab" in any case.
>Opinions expressed above do not necessarily
>reflect those of Atari Corp. or anyone else.
Uh-oh.... an ominous disclaimer on the end of a refreshing note...
Regards
Ray Depew
HP Colorado IC Division
r...@hpfitst1.hp.com
----------
Michael Rose
>In article <22...@atari.UUCP> m...@atari.UUCP (Derek Mui) writes:
>| We would love to put the new desktop in the above machines.
>| Unfortunately, we don't have enough ROM space to fit everything together.
>| Just for your information, the new desktop is 22k bigger than the old one.
>
>Just a naive question, no flames please! Wouldn't the *new* desktop
>fit into those Mega STs that use the 2 ROM chip set? Isn't there some
>space in those ROM chips? Or couldn't larger ROM chips work?
Isn't the Mega supposed to be able to access a Megabyte of ROM through
the system expansion bus? Wouldn't it be possible to fit the new ROMs
on an expansion board that plugs into the megabus? And how about throwing
in a 68030 and a 68882 and a new graphics chips and... just hoping! :-)
Take care!!!
-Michael Rose
no .sig file yet!!!
Rainer Klute
|> We would love to put the new desktop in the above machines.
|> Unfortunately, we don't have enough ROM space to fit everything together.
|> Just for your information, the new desktop is 22k bigger than the old one.
|> Anyway, we may need a little bit more time or even a miracle in order to
|> squeeze every extra bits into the 192K ROM. We will try!
Split the whole thing into a mandatory part located in ROM and an optional
part to be loaded into RAM on startup.
--
Dipl.-Inform. Rainer Klute kl...@unido.informatik.uni-dortmund.de
Univ. Dortmund, IRB kl...@unido.uucp, kl...@unido.bitnet
Postfach 500500 |)|/ Tel.: +49 231 755-4663
D-4600 Dortmund 50 |\|\ Fax : +49 231 755-2386
Derek Mui
>
> In article <22...@atari.UUCP> m...@atari.UUCP (Derek Mui) writes:
>> We would love to put the new desktop in the above machines.
>>Unfortunately, we don't have enough ROM space to fit everything together.
>
> telling us about interesting new features that I have not mentioned in my
> 'trade show report' and give us more detailed info than I did? I believe
> that many ST netters would be interested. Thank you!
>
> Tomas Felner, fel...@inf.ethz.ch
Tomas Felner writes about the features of the TT desktop:
Here are additional features that Tomas Felner missed:
- FILE MASK to select the type of file ( *.prg, *.tos atat*.* etc )
that you want to see in the windows.
- SELECT ALL function to select everything inside a window.
- Items will stay selected inside a window until the operation is
finished. For example, drag a bunch of files to copy to a floppy disk
and that floopy disk runs out of room in the middle of the operation.
All the copied items will be deselected and unfinished items will stay
selected ( Great for doing backup ).
Scrolling the window contents up and down will not deselect items either.
You can use cursor keys to scroll the window contents!
- INSTALL DEVICE to install new partitions icon automatically.
- Desktop will look for deskicon.rsc during the boot up time to load in
users designed iocns.
- Choice of passing in file parameter as full path or just file name only
and choice of setting the default directory according to the appliction or
top desktop window when launching an application.
- Support GEM take parameter ( GTP ) type.
- DELETE ITEM to activate delete file operation. This is useful when
you open full screen window that covers the trash can icon.
- ALTERNATE + ? to open a device where ? is the drive that you are interested.
( This is the most popular fearture ).
- CONTROL + ? to replace the top window contents with the new ? drive.
- All the desktop icon's path ( the ones that reside on the desktop )
will be updated if that item is being deleted, renamed or moved.
- Option to or not to preserve file date or not when doing file copy operation.
- DESKTOP CONFIGURATION also shows current total free memory size of the
system.
- Key stroke to change resolution.
- Print out current window's contents in text form.
- Maximum seven possible desktop windows.
- User selectable window and desktop backgorund colors and patterns.
- SIZE TO FIT all the items horizontally inside a window.
- Most of the operations in the desktop are loop alike. For example,
if you select four items inside the window and then select the SHOW
INFORMATION menu. The show info dialogue will display the info of all
the selected files one after one. Drag text files to printer icon will
also print out all the files one after one.
- HELP menu.
..... For the rest of them, please read the official owner manual.
Basically, all the features that we have provided are based on
what an ordinary user will need the most and from all the COMPLAINTS and
CRITICISMS ( please, no more ) that we have received in the past several
years. The TT desktop is nothing fancy, all we wanted to do is to make the
desktop to be truly useful and hopefully people will enjoy using it.
As usual, the above features are subject to change without
notice :-) :-)
==================================================================
Derek Mui, Atari Corp, 1196 Borregas Ave, Sunnyvale, CA 94086
UUCP: {..ames!atari!mui}
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed here are my own and they may be
kam hung soh
>So my question is, will Byte review it [the TT] and put it on the front cover,
>as they did with the Amiga 68030 whatever-it-is? Maybe you guys at
>Atari should send them one.
The Byte review for the A3000 was a pathetic three page write-up that
talked about little more than the hardware specifications. Hardly
anything about the Amiga software features, etc. Hopefully, the TT
will get a more thorough review.
I can't see why anyone should worry about what Byte says anyway
(except from a marketing viewpoint). The so-called `Journal for Small
Systems' has gone done the tubes with regards to any useful technical
or intellectual articles. Witness the paucity of information between
reams of advertising.
Save the forests! Forget Byte! :-)
---
Soh, Kam Hung email: h....@trl.oz.au tel: +61 03 541 6403
Telecom Research Laboratories, P.O. Box 249, Clayton, Victoria 3168, Australia
Tomas Felner
>Unfortunately, we don't have enough ROM space to fit everything together.
Derek, do you think you could elaborate a little bit on the new desktop,
John Henders
Thanks for the extra info,Derek. One other question. Has the limit on
the number of open windows been raised at all in the TT?
John Henders(ubc-cs!van-bc!jhenders)
Vancouver,BC
John Townsend
There are important applications that use the Cartridge Port. We can
just take that Port and use it. Also, I think there might be some
technical problems with this solution as well.. Alan or Derek would
probably know more about what the ins and outs are of this solution
and why we can't use it..
-- John Townsend
Atari Corp.
Stephen Jacobs
>- there's a new and fast GDOS
>
>Here are additional features that Tomas Felner missed:
>
My understanding is that existing compilers don't support passing parameters
to GEM applications. Am I mistaken? Is this going to be supported somehow?
Steve J.
Dave Haynie
>yege...@handel.ecn.purdue.edu (James D Yegerlehner) writes:
>>So my question is, will Byte review it [the TT] and put it on the front cover,
>>as they did with the Amiga 68030 whatever-it-is? Maybe you guys at
>>Atari should send them one.
>The Byte review for the A3000 was a pathetic three page write-up that
>talked about little more than the hardware specifications. Hardly
>anything about the Amiga software features, etc.
In BYTE parlance, at least, that A3000 article was a preview. They claim that
they won't do a full review on anything until it's actually shipping and
available in its finished form. That's probably not a bad policy; we could
have changed all kinds of things between the December/January dates they
probably looked at the 3000 and their April publication date (must have been
the May or June issue, if it came out in May).
Of course, that's not at all to say they couldn't have done a more complete
job. The 15+ page AmigaWorld article was finished at the same time (early
copies of both mags were available at the A3000 launch). The other thing is
that, while the BYTE staff does the previews, they often count on contributors
to do the actual review (at least, that was the case for the A2000). So you
often don't see much in the way of a review. Any BYTE has roughly a five month
lead time. Given that A3000s first shipped in mid June, I wouldn't expect to
see an actual review until the November or December issues, at the earliest.
If at all.
>Hopefully, the TT will get a more thorough review.
Maybe it will. If the TT is as out in force as the Atari folk claim, it's
really too late for BYTE to do their typical preview on it, unless they just
haven't found the space for it yet (hey, wouldn't want to have to displace
Yet Another PClone review just to write up a few pages on something with a
hope of being a little different).
>I can't see why anyone should worry about what Byte says anyway
>(except from a marketing viewpoint).
BYTE is good exposure, since lots of computer folks read it, and it still
hangs, albeit a bit tenuously, to its claim of multiple platform coverage.
>The so-called `Journal for Small Systems' has gone done the tubes with
>regards to any useful technical or intellectual articles.
That's true, but unfortunate. Back in the 70s and 80s, BYTE was kind of a
Scientific American of small computer systems. Lotsa good stuff, technical
stuff written so that you didn't have to be an expert to understand it. Now
a days it's about as technical on computers as "Car and Driver" is on cars;
lots of reviews and editorials, nothing hardcore. There's nothing wrong with
that, but in the case of BYTE, there's no adequate replacement available for
what BYTE once was. It's a shame when progress means going retrograde.
>Soh, Kam Hung email: h....@trl.oz.au tel: +61 03 541 6403
--
Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests"
{uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy
Get that coffee outta my face, put a Margarita in its place!
Tomas Felner
>
>
> Basically, all the features that we have provided are based on
>what an ordinary user will need the most and from all the COMPLAINTS and
>CRITICISMS ( please, no more ) that we have received in the past several
>years. The TT desktop is nothing fancy, all we wanted to do is to make the
>desktop to be truly useful and hopefully people will enjoy using it.
I often heard complaints about Atari not reacting to all the improvements
suggested by developpers, especially German developpers. As it looks now,
it seems that this wasn't the case at all, at least for the visible desktop
improvements. Who knows what they fixed and improved in the GEMDOS, AES and
VDI internals (Derek?).
Also, Atari seems to have abandoned its poliy of announcing vapourware.
Now that we know that Atari listens to user complaints and suggestions,
we should not complain that they don't seem to do anything. By complaining,
we would push them to make early announcements in order to keep us happy.
This, however, would result in vapourware. And, as we all know, vapourware
is no fun at all.
Atari (Allan, Derek, Ken, John and all the others), keep up this policy!!!
Coming up with a new or improved product in a big bang is always better for
the image than talking about vapourware for months and years. Others did so
(Apple, NeXT, Commodore, Sun, IBM and more) and they were always successfull
with it. Why shouldn't you ...
Tomas Felner, fel...@inf.ethz.ch
Steve Yelvington
s...@chinet.chi.il.us (Stephen Jacobs) writes ... ]
> In article <22...@atari.UUCP> m...@atari.UUCP (Derek Mui) writes:
>>- there's a new and fast GDOS
>>
>>Here are additional features that Tomas Felner missed:
>>
>>- Support GEM takee parameter ( GTP ) type.
>
> My understanding is that existing compilers don't support passing parameters
> to GEM applications. Am I mistaken? Is this going to be supported somehow?
>
> Steve J.
Some may not support parameters. Others do. Sozobon (dLibs with GEMFAST
or GEMQ) allows parameters -- there is no separate GEM startup module.
There are existing GEM application that take args; I think First Word
is one of them.
I would like to see a Desktop that allowed me to drag a data file to a
program icon. That would let me install my own print output formatter
or communications program on the Desktop as if it were a device. I believe
the IXI desktop for Unix works that way -- perhaps others do, too.
As an aside -- I'd like to thank Derek for posting the info on the TT
Desktop. With the TT finally hitting the dealers, and the recent drops
in chip costs, things are really brightening up. I stopped by the local
Atari dealer the other day and was pleased to see 4-megabyte STs selling
for $895 or so (sans monitor). Add Pagestream (running off a RAMdisk)
and a Deskjet and you have a very nice little desktop publisher.
--
Steve Yelvington up at the lake in Minnesota
(moving soon to Marine on St. Croix)
st...@thelake.mn.org plains!umn-cs!thelake!steve
Tom Yager
In article <14...@cbmvax.commodore.com>, da...@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes:
> In article <22...@trlluna.trl.oz> s...@shiva.trl.oz (kam hung soh) writes:
> >yege...@handel.ecn.purdue.edu (James D Yegerlehner) writes:
>
> >The Byte review for the A3000 was a pathetic three page write-up that
> >talked about little more than the hardware specifications. Hardly
> >anything about the Amiga software features, etc.
Not much was said about 2.0 because our VERY early pre-release version wouldn't
run for more than a few minutes, and we had no 2.0-compatible applications,
except for AmigaVision. Bob (the author) talked about everything he worked
with. It's appropriate not to discuss those things you can't see and touch.
> In BYTE parlance, at least, that A3000 article was a preview.
Actually, BYTE parlance refers to it as a "First Impression." Same thing.
> They claim that
> they won't do a full review on anything until it's actually shipping and
> available in its finished form. That's probably not a bad policy; we could
> have changed all kinds of things...
Right on--we've run early full reviews of supposedly "golden beta" hardware
and found that the vendor changed EVERYTHING when it went to market.
That's why there is a clear distinction in the magazine between reviews
and First Impressions. We aren't trying to fool anyone. A FI is just our
way of introducing a new product to the public.
We also avoid injecting much opinion into FIs because it pisses the vendors
off. I'm sure you would have enjoyed an article that included "...the system
crashed every few minutes, and virtually all the Amiga software we
tested wouldn't run on the 3000." You'd have been livid, and rightly so,
because it isn't fair to fling knives at something that's still under
development.
> Of course, that's not at all to say they couldn't have done a more complete
> job. The 15+ page AmigaWorld article was finished at the same time (early
> copies of both mags were available at the A3000 launch).
We gave the 3000 the same amount of coverage as any other First
Impression; actually, it got a little more. Our FI of the Apollo 2500, which
was arguably just as important (maybe moreso--it kicked off the low-end UNIX
workstation market), got two pages.
AmigaWorld lives or dies by virtue of the Amiga's success. Of course they gave
it 15 pages. If we were a single-platform mag, we'd make a big fuss over the
latest box, too. Nothing wrong or dishonest about that; we all need to make
a living.
> ...while the BYTE staff does the previews, they often count on contributors
> to do the actual review (at least, that was the case for the A2000). So you
> often don't see much in the way of a review.
I wouldn't say that's true. When we go outside the magazine to do a review,
it's because we (the editors) feel that an outsider has more expertise. We try
to find experts to do our reviews. We don't always manage, but there has been
some excellent work in the past few months. We have also been doing a hell of
a lot more testing and writing in-house. Virtually all of our UNIX workstation
pieces are handled that way. Future Amiga-related articles probably will be,
too.
> Any BYTE has roughly a five month
> lead time. Given that A3000s first shipped in mid June, I wouldn't expect to
> see an actual review until the November or December issues, at the earliest.
> If at all.
Our lead time is four months, and we've got changes in place to trim it to
three. Vendors aren't the only ones aggravated by that.
I don't think we've scheduled a 3000 review. We received our loaner about
a month ago, and we're starting to get some software and accessories together
for it. The rule is, if you can't say much more than what was said in the
First Impression, don't bother. Right now, that's the case; there isn't much
we can add until more 3000 (and 2.0)-specific software and add-ons start to
appear.
Of course, not being in the "Amiga department" per se, I'm only speculating.
> >Hopefully, the TT will get a more thorough review.
>
> Maybe it will. If the TT is as out in force as the Atari folk claim, it's
> really too late for BYTE to do their typical preview on it, unless they just
> haven't found the space for it yet (hey, wouldn't want to have to displace
> Yet Another PClone review just to write up a few pages on something with a
> hope of being a little different).
Atari has a reputation of being uncooperative with non-Atari-specific mags. We
have never, to my knowledge, gotten a review unit of ANY recent Atari machine.
We ask, brother do we ask, but we never get a response.
As for displacing a PC clone review, balderdash! Open any recent issue
of BYTE, and you'll see reviews of software development tools, UNIX
workstations, Mac stuff, graphics hardware...PCs get a lot of ink because
they are rolled out more quickly than any other type of computer, but we go
out of our way to make sure that other platforms get covered. If anything, we
kill PC clone reviews in favor of something more interesting.
We recognized some months ago that people were starting to see us as strictly a
PC book. So, we're changing. Lots of changes are already in place, but 1991
will bring an almost entirely new BYTE. I won't give away any secrets, but
we're working to bring back a lot of the nuts-and-bolts, technical leadership
that made BYTE so popular way back when. It's already happening. Check out the
September (if you can lift it) and October issues for a few tastes of things to
come.
> >I can't see why anyone should worry about what Byte says anyway
> >(except from a marketing viewpoint).
Eventually, EVERYTHING boils down to dollars and cents. The reason 500,000
people read our magazine, and we sell millions in ads every month, is that
we ARE taken seriously. I get calls all the time from readers asking for
advice about UNIX systems and software, and I know the other editors are all
in the same boat. I'm busy enough that I figure somebody must be paying
attention.
>
> BYTE is good exposure, since lots of computer folks read it, and it still
> hangs, albeit a bit tenuously, to its claim of multiple platform coverage.
I assume you call our multi-platform coverage "tenuous" because it hasn't
included much Amiga. Well, that's about to change. No details there, either.
Wait and see.
> >The so-called `Journal for Small Systems' has gone done the tubes with
> >regards to any useful technical or intellectual articles.
>
> That's true, but unfortunate. Back in the 70s and 80s, BYTE was kind of a
> Scientific American of small computer systems. Lotsa good stuff, technical
> stuff written so that you didn't have to be an expert to understand it. Now
> a days it's about as technical on computers as "Car and Driver" is on cars;
> lots of reviews and editorials, nothing hardcore. There's nothing wrong with
> that, but in the case of BYTE, there's no adequate replacement available for
> what BYTE once was. It's a shame when progress means going retrograde.
I hate to harp, because I know virtually everyone reading this is saying,
"yeah, right." But McGraw-Hill, the company that publishes BYTE, likes to make
money. A lot. And any time they start to see our market share decline, they
demand that we take steps. We are taking steps, radical ones. Everything from
playing with the cover (little things) to purposely stepping up our UNIX
coverage (big things). We're constantly doing research, polling our readership,
and trying to make the magazine something more people want to read. You've
pointed out a few of our flaws, and we are aware of them (and many others).
You can't imagine how hard we're working to improve.
Before you complain about how BYTE has lost its teeth, go out and buy the
September or October issue. Read it, thoroughly, and if you still don't like
what you see, write and tell us why. Every letter we get is read and
discussed, and readers' opinions DO have an impact on how the magazine works.
That's not self-serving bullshit, it's the truth. When you get to be BYTE's
size, you thrive or perish on the basis of reader satisfaction. One piece of
advice: Don't send a vague letter ("Howcome you don't have more Amiga
coverage? Huh?"). Tell us what you want, why you want it, and why you think
there are others out there who agree with you. I've seen changes made
based on a single, convincing letter.
There is a new BYTE coming, and I think that the readers we've lost over the
past few years will start coming back. Oddly, when I started working for BYTE,
I didn't read it. I, too, was a fan of the "old BYTE," back in the days of
Ciarcia and the like. Now, I'm up to reading about 1/3rd to 1/2 of the
editorial material, and it's really starting to grow on me again. Comments from
people I run into at trade shows seem to support that trend.
Hell, they'd pay me whether I read it or not. Probably 50% of my job is
reading, and I don't like to waste that time. Only recently have I found that
BYTE is hitting the targets I, as a reader, want them to hit. My targets
haven't changed--BYTE has. And will.
> >Soh, Kam Hung email: h....@trl.oz.au tel: +61 03 541 6403
> --
> Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests"
> {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy
--
+--Tom Yager, Technical Editor, BYTE----Reviewer, UNIX World---------------+
| UUCP: decvax!maxx!tyager NET: maxx!tya...@bytepb.byte.com |
| "I just bought...the Macintosh portable. And I took it back. Pain in the |
+--butt." --Harry Connick, Jr.-------I speak only for myself.--------------+
Derek Mui
> Some may not support parameters. Others do. Sozobon (dLibs with GEMFAST
> or GEMQ) allows parameters -- there is no separate GEM startup module.
> There are existing GEM application that take args; I think First Word
> is one of them.
>
> I would like to see a Desktop that allowed me to drag a data file to a
> program icon. That would let me install my own print output formatter
> or communications program on the Desktop as if it were a device. I believe
> the IXI desktop for Unix works that way -- perhaps others do, too.
>
Yes, the TT desktop has that feature! Dragging any data file icon
on to a program icon will simply launch the program with that data file's
name as the input parameter.
Olaf Schlueter
(Stephen Jacobs) writes:
> >- Support GEM take parameter ( GTP ) type.
>
> My understanding is that existing compilers don't support passing parameters
> to GEM applications. Am I mistaken? Is this going to be supported somehow?
Every compiler I have seen for ST computers (lots of C, Modula, Pascal)
supports parameter passing to any program: they do not care about the
application type. For example even the first version of 1st Word can
handle Filenames as parameters ('Install Application' 'DOC'). This
feature works also with Calamus (CDK), Turbo C (C-Files). All you need
to do with current desktop versions ist to use 'Install Application' (or
something similar - i've never seen an english TOS version) in the
EXTRAS Menu. However, you will probably have to play around with the
location of RSC files (and CFG's and HLP's and ...).
This is one example how bad documentation can prohibit the use of
a really nice feature. It took more than four years, sloppy speaking,
to spread the information about how shel_find() works, and to release
a TOS version (1.4) that implements it in an intelligent manner.
A lot of programs for the ST in use today don't use this routine.
As the result you will probably get problems using the 'Install
Application' Feature. Even using TOS 1.4 1st Word Plus versions
started via double click on a DOC file icon will probably fail to
load the default printer configuration PRINTER.CFG. (disclaimer:
I've only seen 2.x versions).
Greetings,
--
Olaf Schlueter, Sandkuhle 4-6, 2300 Kiel 1, FRG, sch...@oski.toppoint.de
! We have to pay for incoming mail, so don't reply or keep short !
Bill Sheppard
>...
>I would like to see a Desktop that allowed me to drag a data file to a
>program icon. That would let me install my own print output formatter
>or communications program on the Desktop as if it were a device. I believe
> Steve Yelvington up at the lake in Minnesota
Gemini (shareware alternative desktop widely available) supports dragging
file(s) to desktop icons to pass as parameters - I do this all the time
with MicroEmacs.
Neodesk 3 claims this feature, I believe. Will someone please holler here
when they actually get a Neodesk 3?
--
################################################################################
# Bill Sheppard -- bi...@microware.com -- {uunet,sun}!mcrware!mwca!bill #
# Microware Systems Corporation --- OS-9: Seven generations beyond __/_!! #
#######Opinions expressed are my own, though you'd be wise to adopt them!#######
Ed Krimen
- Will someone please holler here when they actually get a Neodesk 3?
As long as I'm connected to this net, you'll hear. :^) I sent my
upgrade money in the day after I received the newsletter.
Ray Depew x2419
> called "comp.sys.atari.st" and is for discussion of _Atari_ products. The
> article I am following up on contained nothing but Amiga drivel. There are
> more Amiga groups than Atari groups, is it asking too much to keep discussion
> there?
> ---jb
> ----------
I disagree. Except for the technical points of Amiga performance, what has
been said in this string applies as much to the ST( and TT) family as it
does to the Amiga family. This is a constructive string, which basically
addresses the problem of BYTE magazine's trend towards becoming yet another
PC-specific magazine clone. (Yes, that's where I meant to put "clone".)
I don't mind reading about Amigas occasionally. Sometimes the articles
contain information useful to Atari owners. (Like, for example, where to
get the last key in DM! )
Regards
Ray
James G Tauberg
In article <8...@maxx.UUCP> tya...@maxx.UUCP (Tom Yager) writes:
>In article <14...@cbmvax.commodore.com>, da...@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes:
>> >Hopefully, the TT will get a more thorough review.
>>
>
>Atari has a reputation of being uncooperative with non-Atari-specific mags. We
>have never, to my knowledge, gotten a review unit of ANY recent Atari machine.
>We ask, brother do we ask, but we never get a response.
"We have never, to my knowledge, gotten a review unit..."
I guess it all depends on your definition of "recent Atari machine."
-------------------
Check these issues:
-------------------
March 1986 Vol. 11, No. 3 issue of Byte.
"Product Preview: The Atari 1040 ST"
by Phillip Robinson and Jon R. Edwards
Two Byte editors take a look at Atari's new $999 1-megabyte machine
pg. 84
June 1986 (no Vol. no No.) issue of Byte.
REVIEWS: "THE ATARI 520ST"
by Eric jensen
A good engine for bit-mapped graphics, pg. 233
Thought you might like to know,
Jim Tauberg
Robert_...@cup.portal.com
Who have you been talking to at Atari?? Give me a shout, I'm the manager of
user group services. 408-745-2052 voice, or fax 408-745-2088.
Let's try to fix the problem for *both* of us.