Open letter to John Townsend
Alfred Radauer
Hi John!
Ihave been reading with interest your comments on Atari computers,
especially the one where you critisised that TOS would not stand up to its
competitors, in terms of features, networking etc.... I got an old German
Atari newspaper here that states that a certain, high rankingAtari person,
a system programmer for Atari, namely John Townsend, has quitted Atari for
Taligent software. If you are not that person and anything inthat last
sentence is wrong, I will by all means excuse myself and ask for apologies.
But if you are that person (which I think is highly probable), then I am
little bit puzzled.
I mean, if someone is haveing a job at a company, he has to stand up
usually in the morning, get to work at around 8,9,10 am and stay till in
the afternoon. I assume you also did this, I also assume that you got paid
for doing work for quite a period of time at Atari. Now, on the other
hand, I am looking at TOS/GEM, which is a work mainly done by DR and the
things Atari did with it. Now, during the period you worked at Atari, the
things the system programmers did, were:
some bugfixes and adaptations to STE and TT
TOS2.06 desktop
modular control panel
Considering what other programmers did during the same time, I kindly ask:
WHAT DID YOU DO AT ATARI ALL THE TIME?
drinking coffee? playing games? I think the amount of work you did at
Atari gets you a pure "F" , a 5% score at most. If you critizise Atari TOS
(which, BTW and to your knowledge of Atari computers has nothing to do
with "Magic or so") , then you are ciritizising your own work. One of
Ataris biggest mistake was not to fire people like you (there are still
some left.....) earlier, people , who do nothing, consume money, much
erlier. It is a shame, that a company as Atari has to, because you were
incapable, buy tghe kernel for the operating system from someone else, who
programmed in his freetime. What was your commitment to the Atari system
software? Now let us assume, youare far from being a decent programmer:
Why did you not at least document existing OS functions? Why no support?
Now, after you quit Atari, you appear in discussion groups, now, when
nobody actually needs you and your comments.
It also puts a bad light on Taligent, if they hire you. It is quite a
time, when i had a discussion with a person, who dows not like Atari (and
his arguments are objective) about futuere operating systems and he was
shocked to hear, that programmers from Atari were working on Taligent. I
suppose you atari newsgrouop activities take place during your freetime
and not during working hours at Taligent, don't they? Now, as Taligent is
far from being finished and far beyond schedule, and I even can guess the
reason (Townsend and Co.) I will glady buy Microsoft shares, because
whatever you are doing there at Taligent, if you are working the same way
as with Atari, it cannot be of acceptable quality.
Sincerely yours,
Alfred Radauer
David Anderson
: Hi John!
[snip - it WAS rather a long letter]
: Sincerely yours,
: Alfred Radauer
I remember John well from the days when I frequented (you'll pardon the
expression) GEnie. Aside from being a member of the TOS Development
Group, he was perhaps Atari's single most visible online representative
and all-around cheerleader.
The simple fact of the matter is that Atari has NOT been breaking gorund
in the areas of connectivity, expansion, etc., on either a hardware or OS
level...and frankly, they've been playing a pretty darn pitiful game of
follow-the-leader, when it comes to those points. Atari has not been
keeping up with industry developments; it's the truth, and sometimes it
hurts. If you choose not to accept that, it's up to you, but let's not
kill the messenger here, eh?
"People who live in glass houses...might as well answer the door."
--Solomon Short
Roger Sheppard.
>
>Hi John!
>
>Alfred Radauer
I do think you should apologies to John for your inconsiderate outbust,
there are 3 EX TOS Programers working for Taligent, John,Alan and Ken..
To me you sound like a teenager with out any knowledge for business/profits..
To me it makes me feel disgusted to find people like you posting comments like
this on the net, if you have some thing to say to John, please keep it
private in e-mail..
Why not go and bitch at the Amiga people, they have closed down...
*******************************************************************************
* R. W. Sheppard Internet shepp...@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz *
* +64-4298-7249 GEnie r.she...@genie.geis.com *
*******************************************************************************
John Townsend
h925...@idefix.wu-wien.ac.at (Alfred Radauer) wrote:
|Hi John!
|
|Ihave been reading with interest your comments on Atari computers,
|especially the one where you critisised that TOS would not stand up to its
|competitors, in terms of features, networking etc.... I got an old German
|Atari newspaper here that states that a certain, high rankingAtari person,
|a system programmer for Atari, namely John Townsend, has quitted Atari for
|Taligent software. If you are not that person and anything inthat last
|sentence is wrong, I will by all means excuse myself and ask for apologies.
|But if you are that person (which I think is highly probable), then I am
|little bit puzzled.
Yes, that is me. I left Atari to join Taligent in March of 1993. I was at
Atari from September 1987 to March of 1993. I did everything from
Technical Support for Atari products to COMDEX shows to system
builds to development on pieces of TOS.
|
|I mean, if someone is haveing a job at a company, he has to stand up
|usually in the morning, get to work at around 8,9,10 am and stay till in
|the afternoon. I assume you also did this, I also assume that you got paid
|for doing work for quite a period of time at Atari. Now, on the other
|hand, I am looking at TOS/GEM, which is a work mainly done by DR and the
|things Atari did with it. Now, during the period you worked at Atari, the
|things the system programmers did, were:
|some bugfixes and adaptations to STE and TT
|TOS2.06 desktop
|modular control panel
I worked on lots of things. The Atari eXtensible Control Panel, a number of
control panel modules, the SetMode() video driver stuff for the Falcon030,
more testing code that you can possibly imagine, and lots of other things
that I cannot and will not discuss with you.
|Considering what other programmers did during the same time, I kindly ask:
|WHAT DID YOU DO AT ATARI ALL THE TIME?
I certainly didn't flame people on the net about their work, thats for sure.
|drinking coffee? playing games? I think the amount of work you did at
|Atari gets you a pure "F" , a 5% score at most. If you critizise Atari TOS
|(which, BTW and to your knowledge of Atari computers has nothing to do
|with "Magic or so") , then you are ciritizising your own work.
No, I am saying that TOS hasn't managed to live up with the rest of the
world when it comes to features in the operating system. And I challenge
you to prove that it has. It doesn't have networking software built-in,
it doesn't have online help, it has a very basic graphics system, it doesn't
have email support available. There are so many things that the Mac and
PC can do that TOS can't that it makes it really hard for TOS to compete
with these operating systems.
In a way, yes.. I guess I am critical of my own work. The way I look at it
is that I am critical of the history of TOS. Yes, I was a part of that history.
No, I didn't have any decision making abilities during that history. I had
little or no input into what direction TOS went. It was decided at higher
levels than the system programmers group.
|One of
|Ataris biggest mistake was not to fire people like you (there are still
|some left.....) earlier, people , who do nothing, consume money, much
|erlier.
Oh that's rich. You don't even know my (except that you read my name
in STReport) and you are saying that Atari should have fired me? I bet
I can find people right here on this newsgroup that will disagree with
you. You are entitled to your opinion, even if its wrong. I worked very
hard for Atari and I did what I was told to do. If you don't like that, then
that's your problem.
|It is a shame, that a company as Atari has to, because you were
|incapable, buy tghe kernel for the operating system from someone else, who
|programmed in his freetime. What was your commitment to the Atari system
|software? Now let us assume, youare far from being a decent programmer:
|Why did you not at least document existing OS functions? Why no support?
I was no responsible for documenting Atari's OS functions. Atari told the
system programmers group that there were people taking care of this. In
addition, Atari had a full-time member of the team that was responsible for
documenting our work. I cannot and will not be blamed for something I
didn't have control over. And I did support people. I supported them more
than you can possibly comprehend. I did support on GEnie, CIS, Delphi,
BIX, email, Mail, the net.. you name it.. I was there. In fact, for a great
part of my time at Atari.. I was the ONLY one who was there. So, don't talk
to me about support. I have done more for Atari users in that area that you
could ever even think of doing.
|Now, after you quit Atari, you appear in discussion groups, now, when
|nobody actually needs you and your comments.
I have just as much right as you do to post my opinions and comments
in this forum.
|It also puts a bad light on Taligent, if they hire you. It is quite a
|time, when i had a discussion with a person, who dows not like Atari (and
|his arguments are objective) about futuere operating systems and he was
|shocked to hear, that programmers from Atari were working on Taligent. I
|suppose you atari newsgrouop activities take place during your freetime
|and not during working hours at Taligent, don't they?
I work long hard hours at Taligent (I just finished a major untaking that
rquired me to work for 2 months straight without a day off.. that's not my
record.. the record was the Falcon030.. I spent an entire summer working
12, 14, round the clock days to get the Falcon030 out the door.)
Not to mention that my posts clear say that I do not speak for Taligent. If
you are foolish to base your opinion of Taligent on my comments about
TOS and Atari's computer products, then I feel sorry for you.
Using your logic, Atari didn't have good people. Atari had really good
engineers. They didn't have enough of them though. Take a look at Apple.
They have hundreds of engineers working on System 7 and System 8.
Microsoft has hundreds working on Chicago. Atari can't compete with that.
They only have a hand full of people and no matter how good they are,
they can't compete with work that Apple and Microsoft can produce. There
just aren't enough hours in the day.
|Now, as Taligent is
|far from being finished and far beyond schedule, and I even can guess the
|reason (Townsend and Co.) I will glady buy Microsoft shares, because
|whatever you are doing there at Taligent, if you are working the same way
|as with Atari, it cannot be of acceptable quality.
This comment doesn't even deserve a reply. You are nothing more than
a person looking to bait me into an argument about something you know
nothing about.
|Sincerely yours,
yeah, right.
--
-- John Townsend "I want something, I just don't
Taligent, Inc. know what it is!"
Disclaimer: I don't speak for Taligent, I speak for myself.
John Townsend
Jolley) wrote:
|
|What I don't understand is why Townsend cares if Atari users continue to
|use their Ataris. I have no doubt they are garage sale material.
|BUT I CAN'T AFFORD A NEW COMPUTER! Get it? Therefore until Mr.
|Townsend buys me a clone, I'm going to continue to try to make the most
|of my ST. Being "realistic" about Atari corp. isn't going to help me be
|any more productive with my ST, which is my only computer. Take this as
|opinion only, but I wish John would keep his preaching out of
|this newsgroup. If he posts another message like that last one, he
|earns a place in my killfile.
I wasn't preaching.. I was expressing my opinion. I believe that Ataris are
fine machines. Continue to use them if they appeal to you! However, don't
expect Atari to continue to improve the line. I don't think they will. (The
good news for Atarians is that it looks like a number of capable German
groups are picking up the ball and running with it.) I hope I won't end up
in your kill file, but if I do for stating my opinion.. oh well.
|God, I hate it when X-Atarian's think their doing you a favor by telling
|you your computer is crap.
I didn't say it was crap. Far from it in fact. I think the Atari is an excellent
home computer. The only problem I have with it is that its software isn't
up to the current state in the industry. If you don't need this, then keep
using Atari computers. But, don't expect Atari to release the Falcon060
or some PowerPC based computer, because I don't think it will ever
happen.
Eric Jolley
: I remember John well from the days when I frequented (you'll pardon the
: expression) GEnie. Aside from being a member of the TOS Development
: Group, he was perhaps Atari's single most visible online representative
: and all-around cheerleader.
: The simple fact of the matter is that Atari has NOT been breaking gorund
: in the areas of connectivity, expansion, etc., on either a hardware or OS
: level...and frankly, they've been playing a pretty darn pitiful game of
: follow-the-leader, when it comes to those points. Atari has not been
: keeping up with industry developments; it's the truth, and sometimes it
: hurts. If you choose not to accept that, it's up to you, but let's not
: kill the messenger here, eh?
What I don't understand is why Townsend cares if Atari users continue to
use their Ataris. I have no doubt they are garage sale material.
BUT I CAN'T AFFORD A NEW COMPUTER! Get it? Therefore until Mr.
Townsend buys me a clone, I'm going to continue to try to make the most
of my ST. Being "realistic" about Atari corp. isn't going to help me be
any more productive with my ST, which is my only computer. Take this as
opinion only, but I wish John would keep his preaching out of
this newsgroup. If he posts another message like that last one, he
earns a place in my killfile.
God, I hate it when X-Atarian's think their doing you a favor by telling
Alfred Radauer
: Alfred Radauer (h925...@idefix.wu-wien.ac.at) wrote:
: I remember John well from the days when I frequented (you'll pardon the
: expression) GEnie. Aside from being a member of the TOS Development
: Group, he was perhaps Atari's single most visible online representative
: and all-around cheerleader.
: The simple fact of the matter is that Atari has NOT been breaking gorund
: in the areas of connectivity, expansion, etc., on either a hardware or OS
: level...and frankly, they've been playing a pretty darn pitiful game of
: follow-the-leader, when it comes to those points. Atari has not been
: keeping up with industry developments; it's the truth, and sometimes it
: hurts. If you choose not to accept that, it's up to you, but let's not
: kill the messenger here, eh?
: "People who live in glass houses...might as well answer the door."
: --Solomon Short
Let me make sth. clear. I do not think that Ataris technology in either
hardware or softwareplatform IS uptodate when it comes to the
computerline. I think that a 68030 MHz machine is pretty outdated on the
hardwareside, although the DSP makes it usable for harddisk recording. I
do not know of any other computer Atari currently produces. I also know
that TOS is outdated. My comments did not refer to Atari products, but to
products from other companies. If we talk about TOS and Magic we are
talking about completely different things, as Magic is not an Atari
product. Additionally, Magic is actively supported, new versions demonstrate
that Magic (which is TOS compatible)
is NOT out of date. Its features and handling make it, especially with
regard to version 3, very much superior to Windows and System 7 in many
areas (just take preemptive Multitasking) while still operating at
excellent speed and using systemressources very well. We even do not need
Atarihardware, as the operating system will support Macintoshes.
However, if I look what Atari achieved in developing system software, how
hard it was to get TOS 1.4 into release, to get MultiTOS in release, where
most of the work BTW was done outside Atari, how hard it was to get Speedo
GDOS in release, then the updtae to Speedo 4.2; and now take, as a
comparison, the speed at which other programmers released system software.
Take Compo, who have managed to get Speedo 5 out in MUUUUCCCHHH shorter
time, with really improved functionality. Updates are very fast available,
documentation is also. The same is true for Magic, NVDI and the likes.
Now we have John Townsend
1) His comments about the ST and TOS are true; but he shows very little
knowledge of the Atari market and even less respect for the prgrammers
working in it, if he, for example, sets TOS equal to Magic ("Yeah, Tos or
Magic how it is called"). TOS is sth. he was responsible for, and it is -
as he himself stated - not uptodate. The statement which he was implying,
"Magic is out of date" is absolutely NOT true....I do not know how much I
need to stress that, again, MAGIC IS NOT EQUAL TO ATARI TOS.
2) My open letter or my criticism towards John Townsend was in the following
line not so much about the statement he made himself, but a question on
what he did, as a responsible to the systems software, at Atari, what his
working days looked like, what his projects and achievements were etc...
We both agree that Atari has lost out on hardware and on the OS software.
I wanted to ask so. who worked for Atari, how this could have happened.
Why was TOS development so slow? Why were bug reports etc. simply unanswered?
If Atari people critizise the upper managment for that, do you really
believe that Sam Tramiel came personally to throw FAX papers away and say
"we pay you, but we do not want you to touch the sources to TOS"? I don't.
3) In summing up the points above I think it is very reasonable to
critizise John and ask for a statement on his side. Maybe he could tell us
a little about the insides of Atari computerdevelopment over the past
years. But I do not like unqualified statements about the honest work
others do, that IMHO should have been done by him and many other
programmers at Atari.
Till then,
Alfred
Cornelius Krasel
[much stuff deleted]
> 3) In summing up the points above I think it is very reasonable to
> critizise John and ask for a statement on his side.
No, it isn't reasonable, it is arrogant.
[more stuff deleted]
--Cornelius.
--
/* Cornelius Krasel, Abt. Lohse, Genzentrum, D-82152 Martinsried, Germany */
/* email: kra...@alf.biochem.mpg.de fax: +49 89 8578 3795 */
/* "Science is the game you play with God to find out what His rules are." */
Alfred Radauer
: In article <3a2d96$a...@osiris.wu-wien.ac.at>, h925...@idefix.wu-wien.ac.at (Alfred Radauer) writes:
: >
: >Hi John!
: >
: >Alfred Radauer
: I do think you should apologies to John for your inconsiderate outbust,
: there are 3 EX TOS Programers working for Taligent, John,Alan and Ken..
: To me you sound like a teenager with out any knowledge for business/profits..
: To me it makes me feel disgusted to find people like you posting comments like
: this on the net, if you have some thing to say to John, please keep it
: private in e-mail..
: Why not go and bitch at the Amiga people, they have closed down...
I suggest before you make any comments, you read the messages and
followups before.
Your comments are easily summarized and commented:
1) You people using ataris are stupid, your machines are crap, ....
2) You do not consider any arguments given by the other side
3) you constantly insult people
I would also suggest that you keep your comments about business /profit
down. I am studying economics here at one of the best universities for
that matter in Europe, and I would be glad, if you would use econmic terms
and reasoning to undermine your arguments. But as it seems, your
vocabulary is very very limited.
: *******************************************************************************
Iain Laskey
Can someone repost it for me?
Iain
Chris Herborth
[long tirade deleted]
>Till then,
>
>Alfred
Alfred, a little white-space goes a long, long way towards improving
readability, and it only costs about 2 bytes-worth of storage!
--
-------------------======================================-------------------
||| Jaguar 64-bit cher...@semprini.waterloo-rdp.on.ca
/ | \ DO THE MATH Chris Herborth
Roger Snyder
: 1) You people using ataris are stupid, your machines are crap, ....
bothers posting in this newsgroup. At best it is a waste of time for
them. No one here wants to here from them, and their comments are of no
use here. They come off seeming little better than the jerks who invaded
the pet cats newsgroup.
--Roger
Alfred Radauer
: In article <3a2d96$a...@osiris.wu-wien.ac.at>,
: h925...@idefix.wu-wien.ac.at (Alfred Radauer) wrote:
Well, you did not flame them directly (see below)
: |drinking coffee? playing games? I think the amount of work you did at
: |Atari gets you a pure "F" , a 5% score at most. If you critizise Atari TOS
: |(which, BTW and to your knowledge of Atari computers has nothing to do
: |with "Magic or so") , then you are ciritizising your own work.
: No, I am saying that TOS hasn't managed to live up with the rest of the
: world when it comes to features in the operating system. And I challenge
: you to prove that it has. It doesn't have networking software built-in,
: it doesn't have online help, it has a very basic graphics system, it doesn't
: have email support available. There are so many things that the Mac and
: PC can do that TOS can't that it makes it really hard for TOS to compete
: with these operating systems.
Agreed, but to a 100% only when it comes to TOS. There exist programmers,
however, that have managed to build at TOS compatible operating system
called "magic" that is very powerful. It has most of the features
available that you have (in your original posting) crititizsed as lacking,
i.e. in v3 loadable file systems (a mac filesystem is already there).
preemptive multitasking (which neither Windows nor MacOS do offer); the
"basic" graphic system NVDI 3.01 is, IMHO, one of the best graphic systems
available, certainly a lot better than Windows GDI. All the tools that
would provide for Online help are readily available as Public domain or
sharemware (1st Guide, ST Guide) and are of very good quality. I also
doubt there are shells on the PC that can compare to Gemini, Ease or
Neodesk4. It is true, howver, that
a) you do not get all of the tools in one box and have to "flick" the
system together
b) that there are currently no decent networking facilities available.
However, Kay Roemer has said that he will port his MintNET to Magic3, when it
comes and the docus will be made available to him (and I do not doubt that
they won't)
Magic will also be available for the Macintosh, so there is no reason to
depend on Atari at all.
When it comes to development, I think Magic will take a way somewhere
between a commercially produced OS and an OS with many shareware
programmers working on it, just like Linux (which, IMHO, outperforms all
commercial OS Apple, IBM and MS are currently offerning).
OK, maybe not that much programmers- but still.
To say to you: TOS is not Magic; and I think any statements referring to
magic whilst speaking about TOS is a hidden "flame" against the Magic
programmers or at least showsa lack of knowledge.
: In a way, yes.. I guess I am critical of my own work. The way I look at it
: is that I am critical of the history of TOS. Yes, I was a part of that history.
: No, I didn't have any decision making abilities during that history. I had
: little or no input into what direction TOS went. It was decided at higher
: levels than the system programmers group.
: |One of
: |Ataris biggest mistake was not to fire people like you (there are still
: |some left.....) earlier, people , who do nothing, consume money, much
: |erlier.
: Oh that's rich. You don't even know my (except that you read my name
: in STReport) and you are saying that Atari should have fired me? I bet
: I can find people right here on this newsgroup that will disagree with
: you. You are entitled to your opinion, even if its wrong. I worked very
: hard for Atari and I did what I was told to do. If you don't like that, then
: that's your problem.
I do not know about STReport. I read your name once in a German mag.
: |It is a shame, that a company as Atari has to, because you were
: |incapable, buy tghe kernel for the operating system from someone else, who
: |programmed in his freetime. What was your commitment to the Atari system
: |software? Now let us assume, youare far from being a decent programmer:
: |Why did you not at least document existing OS functions? Why no support?
: I was no responsible for documenting Atari's OS functions. Atari told the
: system programmers group that there were people taking care of this. In
: addition, Atari had a full-time member of the team that was responsible for
: documenting our work. I cannot and will not be blamed for something I
: didn't have control over. And I did support people. I supported them more
: than you can possibly comprehend. I did support on GEnie, CIS, Delphi,
: BIX, email, Mail, the net.. you name it.. I was there. In fact, for a great
: part of my time at Atari.. I was the ONLY one who was there. So, don't talk
: to me about support. I have done more for Atari users in that area that you
: could ever even think of doing.
Well, if your follow up to the discussion would not have been that
emotional against Atari users ("remain in the past" and the likes) and
your comments about Magic being that utterly wrong, my follow-up wouldn't
have been as emotional either.
: |Now, after you quit Atari, you appear in discussion groups, now, when
: |nobody actually needs you and your comments.
: I have just as much right as you do to post my opinions and comments
: in this forum.
: |It also puts a bad light on Taligent, if they hire you. It is quite a
: |time, when i had a discussion with a person, who dows not like Atari (and
: |his arguments are objective) about futuere operating systems and he was
: |shocked to hear, that programmers from Atari were working on Taligent. I
: |suppose you atari newsgrouop activities take place during your freetime
: |and not during working hours at Taligent, don't they?
: I work long hard hours at Taligent (I just finished a major untaking that
: rquired me to work for 2 months straight without a day off.. that's not my
: record.. the record was the Falcon030.. I spent an entire summer working
: 12, 14, round the clock days to get the Falcon030 out the door.)
: Not to mention that my posts clear say that I do not speak for Taligent. If
: you are foolish to base your opinion of Taligent on my comments about
: TOS and Atari's computer products, then I feel sorry for you.
: Using your logic, Atari didn't have good people. Atari had really good
: engineers. They didn't have enough of them though. Take a look at Apple.
: They have hundreds of engineers working on System 7 and System 8.
: Microsoft has hundreds working on Chicago. Atari can't compete with that.
: They only have a hand full of people and no matter how good they are,
: they can't compete with work that Apple and Microsoft can produce. There
: just aren't enough hours in the day.
I do not doubt they had good engineers, however, their performance in
mainating an OS was of much pooroer quality than the development on the
hardware side.
: |Now, as Taligent is
: |far from being finished and far beyond schedule, and I even can guess the
: |reason (Townsend and Co.) I will glady buy Microsoft shares, because
: |whatever you are doing there at Taligent, if you are working the same way
: |as with Atari, it cannot be of acceptable quality.
: This comment doesn't even deserve a reply. You are nothing more than
: a person looking to bait me into an argument about something you know
: nothing about.
I never intended to bait you into an argument involving Taligent, I wanted
to know about your work at Atari. This comment was just an emotional
sideline, again, because you seemed to tell the people, who still use
Ataris or better Atari compatible operating systems that they are
"dreaming", or just merely "stupid" to do so and "not to see reality". If you
didn't mean that and you are not that careful with the tone and the
vocabulary you use, then why should the others?
: |Sincerely yours,
Claus Brod
style or contents of Alfred's open letter. I can't understand
why he thinks he has the right to judge about John's work at Atari,
and even if by some magic he had the right, it's not very constructive
flaming John here. I hope that John won't be p*ssed off too much.
I appreciate that he still frequents c.s.a.s.
Anyway, I'm taking this opportunity to add a few comments and
questions.
John Townsend (John_T...@taligent.com) wrote:
> No, I am saying that TOS hasn't managed to live up with the rest of the
> world when it comes to features in the operating system. And I challenge
> you to prove that it has. It doesn't have networking software built-in,
> it doesn't have online help, it has a very basic graphics system, it doesn't
> have email support available. There are so many things that the Mac and
> PC can do that TOS can't that it makes it really hard for TOS to compete
> with these operating systems.
The amazing thing about TOS is that although it is in many regards
a minimalistic system it still (and is) very usable. I always liked
the fact that TOS was lean&mean. I was amazed, for example, by the
extended control panel which added so much value and new possibilities
with so little code.
>In a way, yes.. I guess I am critical of my own work. The way I look at it
>is that I am critical of the history of TOS. Yes, I was a part of that history.
>No, I didn't have any decision making abilities during that history. I had
>little or no input into what direction TOS went. It was decided at higher
>levels than the system programmers group.
That's interesting. Does this imply that the "decision makers" at Atari
didn't think that system software was crucial for the success of
the computer line? I've always wondered where Atari tried to focus on in
those days, especially during 1985-1989. (I think that at the time
you seem to have been working on systems software at Atari it was
already pretty late to turn the situation around.)
> Using your logic, Atari didn't have good people. Atari had really good
> engineers. They didn't have enough of them though. Take a look at Apple.
> They have hundreds of engineers working on System 7 and System 8.
> Microsoft has hundreds working on Chicago. Atari can't compete with that.
> They only have a hand full of people and no matter how good they are,
> they can't compete with work that Apple and Microsoft can produce. There
> just aren't enough hours in the day.
Oh, so true. But wait a minute: There is also only a handful of people
working on MagiC (not even full-time, as far as I know), the replacement
TOS, but still MagiC is an excellent piece of software. They are even
porting it to the Mac now. So you don't need a crew of hundreds of
engineers for decent OS development - if you are determined to do it
and focusing on a number of important things. I agree that MagiC still
cannot compete with the major other operating systems, but it serves
its purpose (fast, preemptive multitasking) very well, much better,
IMHO, than MultiTOS ever did. (I'm not flaming MiNT, I like that
piece of MultiTOS very much.)
In 1985, Atari led the industry by far both in terms of hardware
(at the given price point) and systems software (only the Mac
came close). The basic question is this: Why did Atari lose
the lead although the ST was phenomally successfull in the first
years and the money should have been there?
Claus
--
--cl...@hpbeo79.bbn.hp.com-----------------------------------------------
Claus Brod, MDD, HP Boeblingen Magic is real unless declared integer.
--#include <std_disclaimer>-----------------------------------------------
Timothy Miller
I'm glad to finally see someone from Atari (employee or ex-employee) who
we can talk to and get straight answers from. I'm enjoying reading these
discussions and hear about what people at Atari REALLY did, rather than
some outsider's speculations, especially when that outsider knows nothing
about how many engineers it takes to write an OS or even the first thing
about software engineering.
It looks to me like Atari was understaffed. If you want to blame someone
at Atari for their foolishness, take a look at the Tramiel family, not
their engineers. The engineers brought us great computers DESPITE their
management.