*ATTENTION* Owners of any ICD and or FTe Products (excluding K-Prodcuts)
*ProteanThread*
http://www.lawguru.com/cgi/bbs/mesg.cgi?i=646134828
their reply:
http://www.lawguru.com/cgi/bbs/mesg.cgi?i=226057143
in other words, just as i had suspected, Lance Rhenquist would need to
establish copyright ownership for which he obviously has not and
cannot; that bill of sale from Bob Klaas to Lance Rhenquist only
specifies BBS Express Pro and certain (only certain but not a blanket
coverage) source code written for SpartaDOS 3.3 including code written
by Bob Klaas, Chris King, Steve Carden, and others mentioned in the
bill of sale. Lance Rhenquist not only does not hold the copyrights to
any FTe or ICD products nor is he the copyright owner of said software
as he has not been able to establish ownership. As I stated before, I
don't even think he has the source code to any FTe or ICD softwares
excluding that particular code written by Bob Klaas for SpartaDOS 3.3
Somehow I do not think Mike Hohman is going to come after me or anyone
else who uses or disects or enhances SpartaDOS, Action, or anyother FTe
or ICD softwares; but if Mike were to come after me, he'd also be able
to go after Lance as well, correct? After all, if we want to get
picky, Lance maybe illegally copying ICD and or FTe softwares and
selling it for a profit (and at the same time claiming false copyright
ownership).
Lance has nothing on me (or anyone else who chooses to "hack"
SpartaDOS), nor has he any ICD or FTe source code as he has claimed.
This matter is now put to rest; Do not be afraid to do with SpartaDOS
or Action! or BASIC XE or other ICD / FTe softwares as you will (i
guess so, or at least until the true Mike Hohman or true copyright
owner speaks up and requests a stop to this)
Woodzy
http://www.rtdos.com
8-Bit Classics
wrote:
Well that is good news since I sell AtariMax's cart versions of OSS
programming software like Mac/65, Action, BASIC XL, and BASIC XE. I
was under the assumption that these were in the public domain now?
I have also reproduced the BASIC XL manual in PDF form and will be
selling repro's of the PDF in printed format. Currently working on
Action!, then Mac/65, then finally BASIC XE. PDF is available free
from the site, the the manuals will be for sale minimally over the
cost of printing.
Corey
8-Bit Classics
Shawn Jefferson
>Well that is good news since I sell AtariMax's cart versions of OSS
>programming software like Mac/65, Action, BASIC XL, and BASIC XE. I
>was under the assumption that these were in the public domain now?
Nope, not unless they were put into the public domain by the copyright
holders.
They probably fall more into the realm of AbadonWare. Copyright laws (in
the US and any country under the Berne Convention <IIRC>) extend for at
about 75 years (depends on a number of factors) and they could bring a
lawsuit at any time. It's different than trademark law where you have to
protect your trademark or risk losing it.
There is the issue of damages though... not too much money changing hands
with this old software. Still, you are taking a certain risk selling
someone else's work.
Don't get the wrong impression-this is all just information. I'm all for
keeping the 8-bit alive.
---
Shawn Jefferson
(fix reply to for email)
Shawn Jefferson
>They probably fall more into the realm of AbadonWare.
err.. AbandonWare. :)
William Kendrick
> Shawn Jefferson <sjeffersonTAKE...@shaw.ca>:
>>They probably fall more into the realm of AbadonWare.
> err.. AbandonWare. :)
Heh, just say you had a cold when you typed it. :)
-bill!
8-Bit Classics
I don't have a problem getting permission, as I have received
permission for reproductions on couple other items. Don't even have a
problem paying for the use on items also as long as it is fair. But
until them, specifically on these items, it will be a wait and see I
guess. I have had so many requests, finally got some people to send
me their copies of the manuals to reproduce. Just decided to offer
printed versions for those who don't like reading on the screen. Just
ordered a copy for myself to view before make it public.
Corey
Phantom
Has anyone had any contact with the owner(s) of FTE regarding the ICD
Atari
8-bit items that they suppose to now own?
I would like to know if they (FTE) have any plans to sell now or in the
future any of the ICD Atari 8-bit products that they got from ICD, if
they
have anything left??
I would like to see SpartaDOS X supported and improved upon if
possible. As well as some of the other software and hardware.
"*ProteanThread*" <rt...@rtdos.com> wrote in message
news:1127829936.7...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Michael Duffy
"Phantom" <phan...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:BEj%e.13845$yl....@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
walter...@web.de
It is a pity, but this Mike Hohman disappeared without traces, it seems
...
We from ABBUC in Germany tried for years to locate this guy for getting
permission to keep the outstanding products from OSS/ICD alive. But
maybe he lost so much many on that, he will never show up again ...
In the meantime "everybody" around the globe re-produced and still
re-produces some of those products. Personally, I put MAC65, ACTION!,
BXE & BXL in one cart and provided this hack to others as well. You
might find it on the net together with digitized original manuals as
well as German translations of some stuff ...
>From Poland you can get re-engineered SpartaDOS X carts and Indus GT
drives (called CA 200X) which work as perfect as the original versions.
The risk to get sued - I consider it to be zero as long as there is no
big company envolved and you are doing it to keep the ATARI 8-bit scene
alive and kicking.
If someone might start to make big money out of it, he or she can get
shot ...
To all those who had successfully re-produced manuals and software:
Not only selling re-prints and copied disks or images but offering free
downloads might be more effective. Have a look at ABBUC InfoThek
(http://www.atari-portal.net/iframe.php?file=http://www.strotmann.de/twiki/bin/view/Infothek/WebHome)
to get a glimpse of what I mean.
Register there and upload it for the community's sake.
Gx & GoodByte
Stephen
>
> On 27 Sep 2005 07:05:36 -0700, "*ProteanThread*" <rt...@rtdos.com>
> wrote:
>
> >my question:
> >http://www.lawguru.com/cgi/bbs/mesg.cgi?i=646134828
> >
> >their reply:
> >http://www.lawguru.com/cgi/bbs/mesg.cgi?i=226057143
> >
< snip >
> >
> >
> >Woodzy
> >http://www.rtdos.com
>
> Well that is good news since I sell AtariMax's cart versions of OSS
> programming software like Mac/65, Action, BASIC XL, and BASIC XE. I
> was under the assumption that these were in the public domain now?
>
I visit this group from time to time, so I apologize
if I'm seeing this message a little late.
It's been a _long_ time since I've reviewed the document
covering the sale of Mac/65 to ICD in the 1980's; it
would take a little digging to find it (I have a hunch
that it's the only surviving document of the sale).
What I sold to ICD was a _version_ of Mac/65 and its
name. I still retained the right to develop an assembler
for the Atari 6502 based computers (or any Atari computer,
or any computer based on any CPU), even using the same
code base. I could not call it Mac/65 or associate it
with ICD's Mac/65, etc. As I recall, ICD's focus was on
the name Mac/65 with the code base IP a secondary
consideration, and it was agreed that changes to the
code base yielded a product that was _not_ Mac/65.
An unusual and simple agreement (by today's standards),
but that's pretty much how it went down.
At the time, with the introduction of the Atari ST series,
we wanted to put all of our resources into the new products;
ICD seemed like a good new home for the 8-bit series.
At the time, none of us thought that the life of the products
would be so long!
Again, I may be fuzzy on the finer details, but there
were three of us independently negotiating with ICD:
myself for Mac/65, Bill Wilkinson (et. al.) for the
Basic's XL and XE, etc., and the author of Action!
I do not remember where or how Jim Dunion (author of DDT)
fit into this at the time. I don't remember if OSS
owned DDT outright, or was licensing it from Jim.
ICD wanted all of the products or none of the products,
so if any party was reluctant to sell, that would have
stopped the purchase of the other products. Sadly, we've
all lost touch with each other, and I haven't spoke with
Bill Wilkinson in well over a decade. The last I heard
was that he was living in Washington state.
I have not released any version of Mac/65 into the Public Domain.
Having said that, I don't really know which _versions_
of Mac/65 are actually out there. However, I ask that
any Copyright notices in these versions be preserved
as they were originally; but I can only speak to Mac/65
(Note, some versions of Mac/65 contain an integrated
version of Dunion's Debugging Tool which I do not have
any claim to).
I'm amazed that the Atari 6502 based computers are still
enjoyed by people today, some 25+ years later. Yet, I really
don't know why the Ataris have fared better than similar
computers of the same era.
> I have also reproduced the BASIC XL manual in PDF form and will be
> selling repro's of the PDF in printed format. Currently working on
> Action!, then Mac/65, then finally BASIC XE. PDF is available free
> from the site, the the manuals will be for sale minimally over the
> cost of printing.
>
> Corey
> 8-Bit Classics
I still have all of the original Mac/65 source and many
of its versions as cartridges. I also have all of
the Mac/65 sources for Basic XL and Basic XE, since I
was the principal maintainer of the products (except for the
new floating point package, which Bill Wilkinson wrote).
(Yes, Mac/65 built Basic XL and Basic XE on an Atari 800 with 48k.)
Someday, I'd like to do something with this stuff, because
I fear it may be lost to time and it's a unique piece of
computing history that should be preserved. But, I'm reluctant
to do _anything_ because of the uncertainty of who actually
owns the Basic XL and Basic XE (and DDT) Copyrights today.
Again, because I rarely get rid of _anything_, these are
probably the only surviving copies of the orginal source.
--
Stephen D. Lawrow
*ProteanThread*
otherwise) because as my lawyer stated, he has yet to establish proof
of ownership. Last person I believed own such would have been Mike
Hohman. My efforts to contact Bill Wilkinson (OSS) or any members of
the original ICD Team (as well as Mike Hohman, FTe) have been
unsuccessful. Whatever hacks, mods, or cracks I (when I say I then I
speak for myself here but I'm sure everyone else will agree) apply to
any OSS, ICD, or FTe product, the relevant copyright information will
be left intact. It is not my intention (and I'm sure not the
intentions of others) to claim such products as my own. The only
reason I would need such source code from BASIC XL/XE, Action, MAC/65,
SpartaDOS, etc. would be to adapt it or modify it for my alternate O.S.
project and nothing more:
8-Bit Classics
computer days like this.
Yes, all the versions that I carry have all said copyrights. You
would actually be surprised on the following these products have.
Mac/65 and Action! especially. The 8-Bit days seem to come and go,
but will live on forever if we let them. I am trying to help preserve
this as much as I can. If I step on toes, let me know and I will be
happy to remove products. I contact original copyright owners (when I
know how) and am willing to reimburse them for their hard work if they
would like me to.
Very interesting on the sale, you rarely see the option of being able
to keep source and redevelop to really recompete with the same product
that you sold (even in the 80's).
Great to see that you are still part of the community!
Corey
8-Bit Classics
Shawn Jefferson
>I still have all of the original Mac/65 source and many
>of its versions as cartridges. I also have all of
>the Mac/65 sources for Basic XL and Basic XE, since I
>was the principal maintainer of the products (except for the
>new floating point package, which Bill Wilkinson wrote).
>(Yes, Mac/65 built Basic XL and Basic XE on an Atari 800 with 48k.)
>Someday, I'd like to do something with this stuff, because
>I fear it may be lost to time and it's a unique piece of
>computing history that should be preserved. But, I'm reluctant
>to do _anything_ because of the uncertainty of who actually
>owns the Basic XL and Basic XE (and DDT) Copyrights today.
>Again, because I rarely get rid of _anything_, these are
>probably the only surviving copies of the orginal source.
Please make a copy of it and burn it to several CDs! It would be great if
eventually the source code can either be turned over to the public domain,
or something is done with it for the Atari 8-bit community.
Rick Cortese
<snip>
> What I sold to ICD was a _version_ of Mac/65 and its
> name. I still retained the right to develop an assembler
> for the Atari 6502 based computers (or any Atari computer,
> or any computer based on any CPU), even using the same
> code base. I could not call it Mac/65 or associate it
> with ICD's Mac/65, etc. As I recall, ICD's focus was on
> the name Mac/65 with the code base IP a secondary
> consideration, and it was agreed that changes to the
> code base yielded a product that was _not_ Mac/65.
> An unusual and simple agreement (by today's standards),
> but that's pretty much how it went down.
<snip>
> Again, I may be fuzzy on the finer details
That's where I live!
> ICD wanted all of the products or none of the products,
> so if any party was reluctant to sell, that would have
> stopped the purchase of the other products. Sadly, we've
> all lost touch with each other, and I haven't spoke with
> Bill Wilkinson in well over a decade. The last I heard
> was that he was living in Washington state.
>
>
> I have not released any version of Mac/65 into the Public Domain.
>
>
> Having said that, I don't really know which _versions_
> of Mac/65 are actually out there. However, I ask that
> any Copyright notices in these versions be preserved
> as they were originally; but I can only speak to Mac/65
> (Note, some versions of Mac/65 contain an integrated
> version of Dunion's Debugging Tool which I do not have
> any claim to).
>
> I'm amazed that the Atari 6502 based computers are still
> enjoyed by people today, some 25+ years later. Yet, I really
> don't know why the Ataris have fared better than similar
> computers of the same era.
<snip>
> I still have all of the original Mac/65 source and many
> of its versions as cartridges. I also have all of
> the Mac/65 sources for Basic XL and Basic XE, since I
> was the principal maintainer of the products (except for the
> new floating point package, which Bill Wilkinson wrote).
> (Yes, Mac/65 built Basic XL and Basic XE on an Atari 800 with 48k.)
> Someday, I'd like to do something with this stuff, because
> I fear it may be lost to time and it's a unique piece of
> computing history that should be preserved. But, I'm reluctant
> to do _anything_ because of the uncertainty of who actually
> owns the Basic XL and Basic XE (and DDT) Copyrights today.
> Again, because I rarely get rid of _anything_, these are
> probably the only surviving copies of the orginal source.
I can give you a fuzzy update.
ICD's owner went through a divorce and for quite a while no products
were available. AFAIK after the divorce was settled the 8-bit products
were put up for sale.
Probably the two leading bidders were Mike Holman(FTE) and Bob Puff with
Mike winning. The purchase was mostly rights and a pallet of ICD
PR:Connections. No truckloads of MIOs, just rights and an occasional
piece of undocumented code. There was enough there for Mike to update
and make SDX carts and a slightly modified version of Action!
Mike distributed one of the disk based versions of SD and disk based
MAC/65 with DDT as freeware. I think he still had some manuals and those
he offered for sale. Anyway quite a few OSS products made it back into
the pipeline.
Mike was in the process of developing some major modifications to the
8-bit when he ran out of gas, gas being time, money, and energy. You may
be able to find some of the references to it on the web, 65816
processor, Mars board, that kind of stuff. Lots of FPGA and FLASH memory
type of mods, in circuit programmible so you could do stuff like have
built in BASIC XE and hot swap OS.
That's were we've been for the last decade. Newell came forward to say
that Mike didn't complete the contract for his memory upgrades so he was
now putting them into the public domain. Occasionally someone posts
about how they are declaring all FTE products PD but it is mostly BS
from people that are frustrated or clueless about intellectual property
rights. AFAIK most rights worth having still reside with FTE.
The 8 bit scene has changed a lot. Used to be a lot of programming
interest and "How do you...?" type hardwre and software questions and
answers. Seems to be mostly about "Where can I find the XYZ game I
played in grade school?" now. I hid the last of my hardware ~3 years ago
when my S.O. went on a "Throw this crap away!!!" war path.
There is also the SIO2PC work done by Nick Kennedy and Steve Tucker.
Betweem them they have just about eliminated the need for a hard drive
or Happy with software and hardware running on everything from an 8088
DOS PC to Windows XP.
There's other stuff out there like IDE drive interfaces, USB interface,
and FLASH cartridges for abandonware software. You can even put an Atari
BBS online over the internet now with a simple cable and software.
There is even MAE editor/assembler by John Harris. I'm sorry to say I
have never used it but it's reported to have features like full screen
editor and be faster then MAC/65. I lost the faith and switched over to
TASM on an MS DOS clone long before MAE came out.
William Kendrick
> The 8 bit scene has changed a lot. Used to be a lot of programming
> interest and "How do you...?" type hardwre and software questions and
> answers. Seems to be mostly about "Where can I find the XYZ game I
> played in grade school?" now.
And don't forget, every 5 years I pop up with "I'm gonna make this awesome
new game!" and then never do. D'oh!
> I hid the last of my hardware ~3 years ago
> when my S.O. went on a "Throw this crap away!!!" war path.
Fortunately, my wife understands Atari was my first love, so I get to keep
it all set up in my office in our apartment. ;^)
And BTW, hi Rick!!!
--
-bill!
bi...@newbreedsoftware.com
http://www.newbreedsoftware.com/
William Kendrick
> I doubt Lance Ringquist owns anything (copyrights, source, or
> otherwise) because as my lawyer stated, he has yet to establish proof
> of ownership. Last person I believed own such would have been Mike
> Hohman. My efforts to contact Bill Wilkinson (OSS) or any members of
> the original ICD Team (as well as Mike Hohman, FTe) have been
> unsuccessful.
I tried to email you Bill Wilkinson's email address, but it bounced
("no such address: rt...@rtdos.com")
*ProteanThread*
google. :-)
try "proteanthread at REMOVE THIS yahoo dot com"
only time i post through google is when i'm not at my own computer or
using my own login; seems everytime i post through google i get
spammed; those blasted spammers get smarter everytime. ;-)
Rick Cortese
> Rick Cortese <rico...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>The 8 bit scene has changed a lot. Used to be a lot of programming
>>interest and "How do you...?" type hardwre and software questions and
>>answers. Seems to be mostly about "Where can I find the XYZ game I
>>played in grade school?" now.
>
>
> And don't forget, every 5 years I pop up with "I'm gonna make this awesome
> new game!" and then never do. D'oh!
My S.O. still loves your game Gem Drop; she plays the net version all
the time. Figure a baseball player that strikes out/gets out 70% of the
time still makes it to the Hall of Fame. So it should be for games.
Stephen
>
> in article 4353997F...@c.net, Stephen wrote on 10/17/05 8:30 AM:
>
> > I visit this group from time to time, so I apologize
> > if I'm seeing this message a little late.
>
> Food times for sure.
>
> Say, in your travels have you ever wondered across the source code to Turbo
> BASIC XL created by Frank Ostrowski? I've been looking for that for ages.
>
> --
> FreeMiNT http://sparemint.atariforge.net/sparemint/ [Free your mind...]
> Atari Team http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/team_display.php?teamid=30472
> L. Pursell http://www.bright.net/~gfabasic/ [AtarIRC, GFA-Basic, Hades060]
No. The only sources I have are Basic XL, Basic XE,
and of course, many versions of Mac/65.
--
Stephen
Stephen
Amazingly, Bill Wilkinson acqiured the original version
of Atari Basic in a similar way. This is why OSS was able
to sell it at the same time as Atari was selling their
Basic. Bill wanted to improve the original Atari Basic,
(I don't know if anyone remembers OSS's original offerings
were disk based versions with enhancements before they
started producing cartridges) but was not really required
to do so...