VBXE - "Video Board XE"
Bill Kendrick
Curt Vendel & friends, I discovered this, which I'm fairly sure
I had never heard of!
Video Board XE (VBXE)
Programmable, FPGA based graphics subsystem for Atari XE computers.
http://vbxe.atari8.info/
The project is, in fact, a few years old! (Website says "2005-2007")
More at AtariAge (in English):
http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/152939-show-your-vbxe-installs/
http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/153863-vbxe-programming-examples-programming-queries/
http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/154085-mac-65-for-vbxe/
http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/142283-vbxe-2/
YouTube has some videos of the thing in action. (Search for "VBXE")
Man, I seriously wish AtariAge's forums showed the date that posts were
made. (For every single frickin' post, it shows the date the user signed up,
which is pretty uninteresting. Knowing when the post was MADE makes way more
sense.)
This is why I've stuck to Usenet-only, for the most part.
But apparently I'm missing out, since I'm not learning about stuff like
VBXE until ~2-4 years after the fact. :)
--
-bill!
Sent from my computer
ricortes
> While reading about the resurrection of Atari chips by
> Curt Vendel & friends, I discovered this, which I'm fairly sure
> I had never heard of!
>
> Video Board XE (VBXE)
> Programmable, FPGA based graphics subsystem for Atari XE computers.
> http://vbxe.atari8.info/
>
> The project is, in fact, a few years old! (Website says "2005-2007")
>
> More at AtariAge (in English):
>
> http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/152939-show-your-vbxe-installs/
>
>
> http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/154085-mac-65-for-vbxe/
>
> http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/142283-vbxe-2/
>
> YouTube has some videos of the thing in action. (Search for "VBXE")
>
> Man, I seriously wish AtariAge's forums showed the date that posts were
> made. (For every single frickin' post, it shows the date the user signed up,
> which is pretty uninteresting. Knowing when the post was MADE makes way more
> sense.)
>
> This is why I've stuck to Usenet-only, for the most part.
> But apparently I'm missing out, since I'm not learning about stuff like
> VBXE until ~2-4 years after the fact. :)
>
> --
> -bill!
> Sent from my computer
I kind of assume the reason we didn't hear much about it is because on
several levels it is a non event. Spectacular on a hacking and
technical competance level of course.
Looks like it is slaved to several things Atari and 6502. Saw where
one person said the picture he was displaying was 152k. I can forget
that a stock disk drive will not be able to store that much data what
with sio2pc and all but you still have to move that stuff around.
Let's say you have 1 meg of ram you can load with 6 pictures. I make
it at ~6 seconds to copy a move a picture to screen ram. Those digital
picture frames do a much better job then that. There is also the first
load of data problem, 152k at ~19kBAUD sio speed 80 seconds load time
per picture. I guess the blitter operation within the CPLD will handle
it after you get the data there but it will take a while to do the
initial loads.
There's little technical problems I wonder about. He could be using
color registers but if not, 3 RGB does not goesinta 8 evenly. You have
to do some compromising like 3 red bits, 3 green bits, and 2 blue bits
to feed your DAC. Its still light years ahead of a stock Atari but
IMHO it would be better with 8 bit bitplanes.
But heck, tried to revive my Tandy 1000TX that had all my source files
on hard drive and my Needham PB-10 programmer. I'm kind of a pathetic
case: After I finally got the 20 meg MFM hard drive to spin up, it
started dripping water from some where internal. Strangely enough, 20
years submerged in a wet basement and the Tandy itself burst to life
on first try. I'll have to clean out the mouse poop and termite
droppings!
That SBC I was buying http://sbc.rictor.org/sbc31/info.html well, the
guy who was selling it to me got swine flu and it pretty much KO'd him
from what he emailed me.
All is not lost just yet. I still have a Syquest 130 meg removable
scuzzy that looks dry and may still have a copy of my programmer
software. Talk about Rip Van Winkle, turns out they went out of
business in 2005. Then I realized I probably haven't used my EPROM
burner in 15-20 years!
There's one more link you should follow if you want to see a beautiful
hack
http://laughtonelectronics.com/arcana/BrideOfSonPg1.html
Wade through that if you dare! I don't think it would work in an Atari
because of ANTIC and 6502C but we can dream. What he did was
intercepts the instruction byte when it loads on the data buss and
replaces it with his own microcode in an EPROM. He implements linear
addressing in a 65C02 for 4 megs and the instructions to get there and
back.
Rick
Thorsten Günther
> Looks like it is slaved to several things Atari and 6502. Saw where
> one person said the picture he was displaying was 152k. I can forget
> that a stock disk drive will not be able to store that much data
There was an invention made some years ago that was called the "hard
disk drive" and stores much more data - several modern computers are
equipped with one. On the A8, MyDOS can handle 16MB partitions and
SpartaDOS can handle 32MB partitions. As this is not much by todays
standards, usually the hard disk drive is replaced by a SD card or USB
stick in a SIO2SD or SIO2USB interface.
> There is also the first
> load of data problem, 152k at ~19kBAUD sio speed
SIO is not restricted to 19000 bps, it is around 4 times as fast on a
stock A8 (as you can experience with a Speedy, Turbo or Happy equipped
drive) and up to 126000 bps with a modified OS. Additionally, PBI hard
disk interfaces were available (e.g. the MIO) and there are currently
projects to make them available again.
Thorsten
ricortes
> ricortes schrieb:
>
> > Looks like it is slaved to several things Atari and 6502. Saw where
> > one person said the picture he was displaying was 152k. I can forget
> > that a stock disk drive will not be able to store that much data
>
> There was an invention made some years ago that was called the "hard
> disk drive" and stores much more data - several modern computers are
> equipped with one. On the A8, MyDOS can handle 16MB partitions and
> SpartaDOS can handle 32MB partitions. As this is not much by todays
> standards, usually the hard disk drive is replaced by a SD card or USB
> stick in a SIO2SD or SIO2USB interface.
If you are trying to be a patronizing jerk I have to say you are doing
a good job of it.
>
> > There is also the first
> > load of data problem, 152k at ~19kBAUD sio speed
>
> SIO is not restricted to 19000 bps, it is around 4 times as fast on a
> stock A8 (as you can experience with a Speedy, Turbo or Happy equipped
> drive) and up to 126000 bps with a modified OS. Additionally, PBI hard
> disk interfaces were available (e.g. the MIO) and there are currently
> projects to make them available again.
>
> Thorsten
Since you are so know so much more then me about computers and the
Atari, how about telling me who came up with the 1489 version of the
sio2pc interface and the original Ape Pro cable?
Just and aside, after about twenty years I am really starting to grow
tired of some of the crap you get on the internet. I mean twenty years
ago you got sophmoric crap but it was usually from someone who was
intelligent and sociable enough to at least attend college so as to
have a certain level of knowledge and access to the college news feed.
My point being you could have a difference of opinions and still have
an intelligent argument.
Take Thorsten as an example. Right in my post I start off with
> > that a stock disk drive will not be able to store that much data
This would indicate that I am aware there are both stock and modified
storage devices otherwise I would would not have specifically put the
qualifier 'stock' in my statement.
Now dear Thorsten, from there you seem to draw several false
conclusions, proceed to set up a straw man argument, and into hominem
insults. Specifically anyone reading my post in context can tell I am
trying to convey the fact the modification will not be of great
benefit to people with unmodified systems. You then proceed to lecture
me about modified systems. The point of modifications being available
is not in contention or made in my post. Quite the opposite, I would
expect someone without knowledge may follow up my post with a question
like "what non stock storage options are available?"
The point I *do* infer and what is perhaps in question is the relative
number of people with modified systems. I don't have all the numbers
for the number people with modified OS, storage, and technical ability
to handle such modifications but experience tells me they are in the
minority. I have seen sales estimates of Atari computers from several
sources, estimates of the number of people who actually program on the
Atari, sales of OSS programming languages, and sales of sio2pc
cables.
There is a sliding level of participation where ~95% of the people who
have ever owned an Atari have neither learned to program or modified
it. It makes me skeptical that this modification will benefit the
Atari community at large. The numbers are all wrong. In general your
position seems to assume that an otherwise normal person can be
convinced to pass pictures from their ~1024x768 32 bit color display
Intel box to view in glorious 256 color mode. I can hear my S.O.
asking "Why would anyone do that?" and she couldn't see normal with a
pair of binoculars from where she lives.<sic>
Rick
Bill Kendrick
> There is a sliding level of participation where ~95% of the people who
> have ever owned an Atari have neither learned to program or modified
> it. It makes me skeptical that this modification will benefit the
> Atari community at large.
So what needs to happen is that the VBXE ships with a big hard
drive or SD card attachment. ;)
*ducks for cover from both sides*
ricortes
Well I believe the modification can function as storage too which adds
some value. I don't think there is a commercial memory expansion
available now.
Problem is history can be a cruel mistress. If you look at the early
80 column boards/carts like Bit3 and Ace<???> they are extremely rare
having never sold well. Ditto for that 80 column joystick thingie that
Atari made, XEP80.
We have had some really cute video mods in the past. Double check me
because my memory may not quite be what it used to be but Michael
StClair<sp?> developed a gen lock for the Atari, I happened to go to
the SLCC meeting where he presented the project. Bob Wooley did at
least two: One was an 80 column 6545 using its own memory and the
other was a dual ANTIC<GTIA?> that effectively ~doubled the amount of
memory that could be displayed with the resulting increase in colors
and lum levels. You could do something like a 16 lum mode overlaping a
16 color mode.
These were both great hacks but I doubt if 10 people were able to get
them installed. The problem is not the hacks, it is a combination of
user base and the Atari's original design. Heck, I was on CI$ when
Dataque was trying to sell their 65816 and you were around when FTE
was trying to do the same. Just not a lot of interest or participation
from the users as soon as you say "$69 and you have to take your
computer apart." WDC tried to make a go of it with the 65802 as an
upgrade path for 6502 based computers and they ended up abandoning the
thing. It isn't just us, seems to happen in just about every consumer
orientated computer from the Apple to the Oric. If you came up with a
hack that saves people a $1,000/year on their utilities and gets them
laid, you would still have trouble selling it around here!<grin>
As much as I hate to admit it, Mihocka was right about emulators being
the future for the masses. Just saw my son's Google phone and it has a
C64 emulator on it. I have a NES emulator on my MP3 player. There's
probably more 8 bit systems set up as emulators on cell phones then
real ones. I wonder if he goes to their forems and rants about them
all being thieves now? Bigger audience!
Rick
Thorsten Günther
> On Dec 22, 1:45 am, Thorsten G�nther<guent...@dilgar.de> wrote:
>> ricortes schrieb:
>>
>>> Looks like it is slaved to several things Atari and 6502. Saw where
>>> one person said the picture he was displaying was 152k. I can forget
>>> that a stock disk drive will not be able to store that much data
>>
>> There was an invention made some years ago that was called the "hard
>> disk drive" and stores much more data - several modern computers are
>> equipped with one. On the A8, MyDOS can handle 16MB partitions and
>> SpartaDOS can handle 32MB partitions. As this is not much by todays
>> standards, usually the hard disk drive is replaced by a SD card or USB
>> stick in a SIO2SD or SIO2USB interface.
>
> If you are trying to be a patronizing jerk I have to say you are doing
> a good job of it.
>>
>>> There is also the first
>>> load of data problem, 152k at ~19kBAUD sio speed
>>
>> SIO is not restricted to 19000 bps, it is around 4 times as fast on a
>> stock A8 (as you can experience with a Speedy, Turbo or Happy equipped
>> drive) and up to 126000 bps with a modified OS. Additionally, PBI hard
>> disk interfaces were available (e.g. the MIO) and there are currently
>> projects to make them available again.
> Since you are so know so much more then me about computers
[...]
> Just and aside, after about twenty years I am really starting to grow
> tired of some of the crap you get on the internet. I mean twenty years
> ago you got sophmoric crap but it was usually from someone who was
> intelligent and sociable enough to at least attend college so as to
> have a certain level of knowledge and access to the college news feed.
You attended college and yet mix up "then" and "than"? Well, it would at
least be wise not to boast about it. Additionally, it's not considered
nice to call someone a jerk and assume he had a worse education than
yourself, in fact in my home country bad manners are considered to be an
obvious sign of bad education.
> Take Thorsten as an example. Right in my post I start off with
>
>>> that a stock disk drive will not be able to store that much data
>
> This would indicate that I am aware there are both stock and modified
> storage devices otherwise I would would not have specifically put the
> qualifier 'stock' in my statement.
...and even there you were wrong, as the stock XF551 disk drive stores
360 KB of data on a DS/DD diskette or 170KB on SS/DD one. But as I
carefully tried to indicate to you already, there are better solutions
available and they already were back in the 1980s.
You really do know a whole lot more than me about computers in general
and especially about stock Atari hardware, no doubt about that.
> The point I *do* infer and what is perhaps in question is the relative
> number of people with modified systems. I don't have all the numbers
> for the number people with modified OS, storage, and technical ability
> to handle such modifications but experience tells me they are in the
> minority.
The VBXE is not a mass-market product, for Sebastian is fully aware that
there is only a three-digit number of Atari enthusiasts who would spend
the amount of money on their A8 hardware he asks for this expansion (me
being one of them). Those enthusiasts are very likely to already own
expanded disk drives, SIO2SD/SIO2USB/SDrives, IDE or SCSI hdds and the
like, and those not that enthusiastic about their A8 gear will most
likely get along quite well with a stock 800XL with 1050 and any cheaply
available means to exchange data with their PC or Mac.
I don't know how you expect anything of the more recent homebrew
products to "help" the "Atari community" (help them with what btw?), but
personally, I appreciate it when someone like Sebastian comes up with
something new and exciting and do not try to talk it down.
EOT
Thorsten
ricortes
> >> ricortes schrieb:
<snip>
> EOT
>
> Thorsten- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
EOT we can only hope. You come here out of the blue with your first
post insulting then take exception to being called a jerk?
I would give you some usenet etiquette lessons like go through a few
old posts and that spelling flames are frowned upon before further
exposing yourself as ignorant but you seem to want to make a career of
it.
This has gone on far enough, I will get specific.
You took offense where none was intended and as such posted irrelevant
and insulting drivel. My comment about VBXE:
"Spectacular on a hacking and technical competance level of course"
<ok, competence>
No amount of running a spell checker, trying to change the point of
contention, or back peddling will change your blunder. You took
offense where none was intended and started off flaming on the basis
of your mistake. My negative comments were directed at the Atari
processing speed and stock I/O. My comments about VBXE would be
considered by sane people to be a complement to the designers.
Most of the people in this newsgroup have known me for 15-25 years. In
that time I doubt if I have ever attacked any hardware designer or for
that matter programmer as you seem to want to portray my post here.
Rude and ignorant behavior I do take exception to of course.
Rick
Thorsten Günther
Am 24.12.2009 06:56, schrieb ricortes:
> EOT we can only hope. You come here out of the blue with your first
> post insulting then take exception to being called a jerk?
You considered my first post insulting because I corrected your false
assumption that someone with a VBXE would start disk juggling with
single/enhanced density disks on a stock 810 or 1050 disk drive to get a
single multi-colour picture displayed (as if neither compression
algorithms nor the XF551 and other mass storage devices with higher
capacities existed) and your false claim that the SIO speed is the same
speed at which a non-modified stock Atari disk drive sends data.
Well, then you are insulted by facts, and I'd better not tell you that
"Bomb Jake" - which needs 256 KB of extra RAM - has recently been
compressed to fit on a single 127 KB disk.
If this lightning struck you out of the blue, the level of knowledge on
this newsgroup must have seriosly degraded.
> I would give you some usenet etiquette lessons like go through a few
> old posts
I have read the thread from the beginning (RFC 1855 3.1.3.).
> and that spelling flames are frowned upon
If someone boasts as openly as you about his oh-so-high level of
education and his oh-so-long presence "on the internet" and - in this
posting "in this newsgroup" and at the same time makes grammar and
spelling mistakes like a child (and not the most clever one, I might
add), I find this amusing. Whether you consider it "flaming" (after
calling me a "jerk" and trying to implicate I have a worse education
than yourself, remember?) to point this obvious discrepancy out does
really not matter to me.
> "Spectacular on a hacking and technical competance level of course"
> <ok, competence>
Your technique to rip short quotes out of their greater context to
"prove" that you didn't express what you did might be amusing for
someone who has no experience in this style of discussion - you are
apparently still suffering from the delusion that I am new to Usenet
because I don't write in this group as often as you. You inability to
counter any of my claims and arguments and to answer any of my questions
- it is obvious that's why you are not quoting and/or responding to
anything I wrote - does not speak for you.
> My negative comments were directed at the Atari
> processing speed and stock I/O.
The VBXE has very advanced blitting capabilities to take the load off
the CPU just because of that, as you could have easily found out reading
the specs on vbxe.atari8.info. And the stock I/O speed of the A8 is
depending on the interface used (PBI is much faster than SIO, which
itself is around 78000 bps - HSS-Copy with modified 1050 drives even
achieves 96000 bps on a stock XL/XE).
Thorsten
ricortes
> As you chose to ignore my wish to end this thread...
>
> Am 24.12.2009 06:56, schrieb ricortes:
>
> > EOT we can only hope. You come here out of the blue with your first
> > post insulting then take exception to being called a jerk?
>
> You considered my first post insulting because I corrected your false
No, I considered your first post to be insulting and more importantly
to have jumped to the WRONG CONCLUSION. Quit trying to change the
argument. You were wrong in then and you are still wrong now. Trying
to make this a spelling bee is just immature stupid. From there I was
just jerking your chain aka trolling. The farther you got into it,
i.e. explaining you were defending people who design hardware while
attacking someone, myself, who has contributed to hardware and
software for the last 25 years is a good example of your level of
logic.
Just go away, you have nothing contructive to contribute here and are
just digging yourself in deeper. The problem is you should have reread
my post and said "Excuse me, I see you were talking about the Atari
market and not the developers of VBE." but instead you chose to talk
about how bright you are. Kind of funny really. Heck, what ever floats
your boat.
You see that is another logic flaw. Somebody with a Nobel prize may be
wrong and conversely someone with a room temperature IQ could be
right. This is such an obvious blunder it is usually given in latin
"ad hominem" to show it has been known as faulty logic for some 2000
years or so.
People make that mistake all the time. We just had a bunch of
knucleheads cross posting from the apple group where one of them made
the argument ~'he is on 8 patents so he must be right.' If number of
patents was the determining factor he would have still been wrong.
Rick