65c816 in a IIc
gid...@sasktel.net
using the Z-Ram Ultra cards without any additional hardware? Is this
a special chip designed for the IIc? I don't imagine one can pull the
65c816 from a IIGS and have it work.
http://www.vectronicsappleworld.com/ads/ads/appleiic/aem.jpg
I am asking here instead of trying it out, as I have already damaged
the clock on the Z-Ram card by trying a 65c02-14 mhz chip.
Totally choked about that one :)
Any takers,
Rob
A2Aviator
Though there might be one particular branded one that doesn't work.
Nothing Bad will happen.
gid...@sasktel.net
That's what I thought with the 65c02-14 but I lost my clock.
When you say you used them as replacements, does that mean you can
also plug them directly into the IIc without the Z-Ram card?
I would like to try one in a IIc++ that I am running at 8 Mhz
Thanks
Rob
Warren 'Llama' Ernst
I love reading these ads with 20+ years of hindsight:
According to the line, the clock chip is located in the floppy drive.
The clock also has a 20-year autorecharging battery. So I guess these
batteries just started failing now.
Adding a clock chip and 1MB of RAM to a //c cost "only" $739 at the
time. Translating 1986 dollars to 2008 dollars, then this card cost
the equivalent of $1432.57 in almost-today's money. Mind blowing.
That somehow adding a 65816 added "efficiency" to your computer,
somehow. There were less than 10 8-bit programs that could take
advantage of that chip, and I don't think any of them had anything to
do with AppleWorks.
Anyway, thanks for the memories.
-Warr
gid...@sasktel.net
> The clock also has a 20-year autorecharging battery. So I guess these
> batteries just started failing now.
My battery was leaking and starting to corrode the leads, so I removed
it. But even after I removed it, I could still set the clock to any
time I want and it would start counting from that time. It worked
like this for a couple of weeks and the computer was being shut down
every night. Then I started playing with a 65c02-14 chip that I got
and the computer hung every time on startup. I gave up and replaced
the original 65c02 but now I can't even set the clock any more. Only
the seconds and minutes remember what I entered, but they don't count
up, and the hours counter counts up randomly by 5-7 hours which makes
the days count up rapidly. I might try reinstalling a battery to see
if that will calm down the counters. But who knows.
Rob
srk...@gmail.com
will give you less grief. But again, you need the software to take
advantage of it. And maybe more importantly, you need a 65C802 -
extremely usefuly, just a bit rare.
The 14MHZ 65C02 will give you the boost for sure, with the same
software compatibility, but mess with everything else (video timing,
floppy timing etc). This is why we need a little extra logic on a
board, such as what the typical IIc accelerator cards provide, to make
it all go. Ive also noticed the high speed (14MHZ) 65C02's have a few
extra pins. These will need to be taken care of as well if your
intending on doing a direct swap.
Good luck.
Steve
gid...@sasktel.net
> That somehow adding a 65816 added "efficiency" to your computer,
> somehow. There were less than 10 8-bit programs that could take
> advantage of that chip, and I don't think any of them had anything to
> do with AppleWorks.
Do you happen to have a list of those programs, Warren?
Rob
A2Aviator
If you wanna run Merlin 816 you can. The enabling of one pin make the
16 bit come alive, but otherwise it's just an '802 when it's inserted
on an 8 bit motherboard.
Because I have nearly as many as I want, from dead IIgs motherboards,
I've used them in place of 65C02s as they are 'free'.
srk...@gmail.com
Sounds like you work a lot with these. Do you have any 65802's you
would be interested in selling? I really need a couple for a FPGA core
were making.
Let me know if you have. it would be a big help.
Thanks
Steve
gid...@sasktel.net
> Yes, I have put them in directly on the motherboard. You get a 65802.
> If you wanna run Merlin 816 you can. The enabling of one pin make the
> 16 bit come alive, but otherwise it's just an '802 when it's inserted
> on an 8 bit motherboard.
Now you gone and done it. You opened a whole can of worms there. :)
Which pin do you enable?
How does it work with the mnemonics that have 4-byte addressing modes
since the 4th byte of these mnemonis refer to a bank number?
Doesn't Merlin 816 rely on GSOS to load and save files or use the ROM
tools built into a IIGS to be able to run?
Would you happen to have a list of programs that can run in 16 bit
mode on a IIc?
Or better yet. Do you have a cool website that explains all and gives
the answers to my questions?
Oh, how I yearn for your knowledge. :))))
Rob
A2Aviator
the rest of the needed support is present.
Otherwise.. you have an '802. Which I see they don't sell anymore. I
don't have the binder with the information in it handy right out
front, but pin #1 is coming to mind, that if you don't get it to work,
you can leave pin #1 out of the socket even, and that makes it work.
But the current crop of WDC parts are fine, as well as the CmdMicro
CPUs that the IIgs would have in many of them.
The pins missing from the 8 bit vs. 16 bit are BE, M/X, VPA, VDA, and
ABORT.
For example, the 816 option from both AE and Checkmate, they have a
couple GALs and a 245 on them, you bring the MMU on board and the CPU
of course, replaces the onboard //e one.
I crammed a ZipGSX into a //c board once, with the AE '816 card, later
on I discovered that I didn't even need that. I could have just used
the thing. Zippy, since it was ProDOS 8, even was able to set system
speed and slot speeds.
David Wilson
> On Apr 19, 8:28 pm, A2Aviator <a2avia...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Yes, I have put them in directly on the motherboard. You get a 65802.
> > If you wanna run Merlin 816 you can. The enabling of one pin make the
> > 16 bit come alive, but otherwise it's just an '802 when it's inserted
> > on an 8 bit motherboard.
>
> Now you gone and done it. You opened a whole can of worms there. :)
>
> Which pin do you enable?
There isn't a pin as such. The 65802 is pin compatible with the 6502
[see page 544 of Programming the 65816 by David Eyes/Ron Lichty]. The
65816 has a number of pins that differ:
pin = 6502 -> 65816
1 = Vss -> /VP (output)
3 = phi1 (output) -> /ABORT (input)
5 = NC -> /ML (output)
7 = SYNC (output) -> VPA (output)
35 = NC -> E (output)
36 = NC -> BE (input)
38 = /SO (input) -> M/X (output)
39 = phi2 (output) -> VDA (output)
In addition the extra 8 address bits are output on the Data Bus during
Phi1. By plugging a 65816 into a 6502/65c02 socket you are shorting /
VP to ground and leaving a number of other signals potentially
undefined.
When using a 65802 (or a 65816 in a suitably configured socket) in a
16 bit address bus environment the bank bytes are simply ignored - all
the banks are the same.
Warren 'Llama' Ernst
Rob,
Sorry I don't. I'm just recalling a conversation I had about 20 years
ago.
The only program I remember right now is the Merlin 816 assembler,
which could somehow take advantage of the chip.
I seem to recall some patch to some office program (the advertisement
showed a pie chart - maybe some proto Lotus 1-2-3?) that could also
use it.
And that's all I remember.
There was certainly never any patch or module that would enhance
AppleWorks in any way, that's for sure.
-Warr
Michael J. Mahon
> On Apr 19, 4:12 pm, A2Aviator <a2avia...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Yeah, I've used them as replacement 65C02s plenty of times.
>>
>>Though there might be one particular branded one that doesn't work.
>>
>>Nothing Bad will happen.
>
>
> That's what I thought with the 65c02-14 but I lost my clock.
I assure you that whatever happened to your clock had nothing
to do with replacing the processor--unless an ESD discharge
coincidentally occurred when you touched the board/chip.
It's much more likely to be a broken trace or bad connection.
(Or it may simply be the incredible coincidence that your clock's
battery chose *this* particular moment to fail. ;-)
If the battery is the problem, then you'll still be able to set
and read the clock when the power is on, but it won't hold the
date and time when power is switched off.
-michael
NadaNet and AppleCrate II: parallel computing for Apple II computers!
Home page: http://home.comcast.net/~mjmahon
"The wastebasket is our most important design
tool--and it's seriously underused."
Michael J. Mahon
> On Apr 19, 6:02 pm, gids...@sasktel.net wrote:
>
>>>That somehow adding a 65816 added "efficiency" to your computer,
>>>somehow. There were less than 10 8-bit programs that could take
>>>advantage of that chip, and I don't think any of them had anything to
>>>do with AppleWorks.
>>
>>Do you happen to have a list of those programs, Warren?
>>
>>Rob
>
>
> Rob,
>
> Sorry I don't. I'm just recalling a conversation I had about 20 years
> ago.
>
> The only program I remember right now is the Merlin 816 assembler,
> which could somehow take advantage of the chip.
I think that the S-C Assembler could use an '802...
> I seem to recall some patch to some office program (the advertisement
> showed a pie chart - maybe some proto Lotus 1-2-3?) that could also
> use it.
Maybe it was VIP Planner...
> And that's all I remember.
>
> There was certainly never any patch or module that would enhance
> AppleWorks in any way, that's for sure.
I think it's safe to say that a 65802 (or '816) in a IIc is about
as useful as a bicycle to a fish, unless you just like to play with
it in assembly language.
Michael J. Mahon
Remarkable. It sounds like the clock chip is either 1) in need of a
reset, or 2) zapped. (These CMOS chips are very low power, which has
the side effect of making them especially susceptible to ESD from a
stray touch.)
To test the "reset" theory, try turning off the machine for at least
a day, then turning it on and setting the date and time again. (If any
stray bits find their way into the BCD registers, these chips can count
in strange ways.)
Scott Alfter
<gid...@sasktel.net> wrote:
>Has anyone successfully used the 65c816 in a IIc that is claimed with
>using the Z-Ram Ultra cards without any additional hardware? Is this
>a special chip designed for the IIc? I don't imagine one can pull the
>65c816 from a IIGS and have it work.
It's most likely something similar to the '816 add-on for the RamWorks
cards, which I had installed in my IIe for a short time (the 10-MHz
RocketChip I had at the time was more useful). You'd have to write your own
code to take advantage of the extra instructions, as there's nothing from
the IIGS that would work with it.
The board should have an '816 preinstalled...and yes, it's the same
processor that would've found its way into a IIGS. Expansion memory on a
RamWorks or Z-RAM is mapped into the address space beyond 64K when running
16-bit code.
_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( http://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ rm -rf /bin/laden >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?
Scott Alfter
David Empson
> On Apr 19, 6:02 pm, gids...@sasktel.net wrote:
> > > That somehow adding a 65816 added "efficiency" to your computer,
> > > somehow. There were less than 10 8-bit programs that could take
> > > advantage of that chip, and I don't think any of them had anything to
> > > do with AppleWorks.
> >
> > Do you happen to have a list of those programs, Warren?
> >
> > Rob
>
> Rob,
>
> Sorry I don't. I'm just recalling a conversation I had about 20 years
> ago.
>
> The only program I remember right now is the Merlin 816 assembler,
> which could somehow take advantage of the chip.
Merlin 16 (which runs in ProDOS-8) requires a 65802 or 65816 processor.
If you have an 8-bit Apple II with a 65C02 or 6502, you are limited to
running Merlin 8. Installing a 65802 would let you run Merlin 16.
The main advantage of Merlin 16 over Merlin 8 is it is assembles about
five times faster. This is because it can use the native 16-bit
processor instead of Merlin 8's method of doing 16-bit calculations via
Sweet 16 (which is a virtual processor implemented in 6502 machine
code).
--
David Empson
dem...@actrix.gen.nz
mdj
> > I seem to recall some patch to some office program (the advertisement
> > showed a pie chart - maybe some proto Lotus 1-2-3?) that could also
> > use it.
>
> Maybe it was VIP Planner...
VIP Professional ...
> > And that's all I remember.
>
> > There was certainly never any patch or module that would enhance
> > AppleWorks in any way, that's for sure.
>
> I think it's safe to say that a 65802 (or '816) in a IIc is about
> as useful as a bicycle to a fish, unless you just like to play with
> it in assembly language.
If you're a Merlin user, the big advantage is speed, and the Merlin 16
editor is somewhat richer than the Merlin 8 FS.ED.
I no longer have a working Zip 8000, but my Transwarp I with an 816 on
it is noticably faster for editing and assembling than my Zip 4000. So
if you've no other acceleration options available and are developing
in assembly language frequently, it's probably worth it if you can get
it to work.
Other than that, yeah, it's fish and bicycles :-)
Matt
David Wilson
Steven Hirsch
> Has any one tried this circuit?
>
> http://www.6502.org/mini-projects/816conv/conv.html
I'm a little confused... Haven't a bunch of folks reported plugging a 65816
directly into a 6502 socket - with a pin bent out? Or, did they all really
mean to say 65802?
A2Aviator
"Plug it in, .. Plug it in.. " (Sorry, Yankee TV Commercials)
Anyhow, yeah, just plug the thing in. I have been using them for years
on end.
..and for VIP Professional, ironic that at the time of introduction of
the IIgs, they were pushing the //e, //c version in the magazines but
not the IIgs version. Infact, there's no mention of it. As if it was
an after thought to make some tweaks and have it boot into ProDOS 16
directly.
David Wilson
> I'm a little confused... Haven't a bunch of folks reported plugging a 65816
> directly into a 6502 socket - with a pin bent out? Or, did they all really
> mean to say 65802?
Looking at the IIe circuit, it looks like simply disconnecting pin 1
would indeed work because the Apple IIe leaves pins 3,5,35,36,38 and
39 unconnected. A II+ on the other hand uses pin 3 (to disable the
data bus buffers) and grounds pin 38.
If you had a card that used the uP SYNC signal (pin 39 of the
peripheral bus) then the VPA signal from the 65816 would not be a
suitable replacement. As the Apple II(+) had USER1 on that pin and the
IIgs has /M2SEL I don't think that many cards would need it.
That only leaves the question of the 65816 driving the data bus during
phase 1. This might prevent snooping the video data, preventing a
program that uses this technique to synchronize with the video
scanner. Has anyone tested this after swapping CPUs?
Otherwise, a 65816 in a IIe with pin 1 bent up should not cause
problems (provided noise on the N/C pins does not interfere with the
default state of those signals).
BluPhoenyx
For C programmers there is a mod for HyperC which uses the 16 bit
registers with the interpreted mode. This works for the GS as well. IIRC
about a 30% speed increase in some cases.
Cheers,
Mike T
capknight
Say a quick question for you. I have my Transwarp I up and running and
have read about the upgrade kit that was available at one time. Was
this
just a matter of plugging in a 65816 or were there additional
modifications
on the board?
Thanks!
C
mdj
Just plug in and go. If you've got a IIgs lying around you can use the
processor from that; they seem to handle 3.6Mhz quite nicely.
Matt
Michael J. Mahon
> On Apr 21, 11:17 pm, Steven Hirsch <snhir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I'm a little confused... Haven't a bunch of folks reported plugging a 65816
>>directly into a 6502 socket - with a pin bent out? Or, did they all really
>>mean to say 65802?
>
>
> Looking at the IIe circuit, it looks like simply disconnecting pin 1
> would indeed work because the Apple IIe leaves pins 3,5,35,36,38 and
> 39 unconnected. A II+ on the other hand uses pin 3 (to disable the
> data bus buffers) and grounds pin 38.
>
> If you had a card that used the uP SYNC signal (pin 39 of the
> peripheral bus) then the VPA signal from the 65816 would not be a
> suitable replacement. As the Apple II(+) had USER1 on that pin and the
> IIgs has /M2SEL I don't think that many cards would need it.
I know of one card type that uses it--FP accelerator cards using the
AMD 9511 (the Zip Chip does not implement SYNC, and they don't work
with them either).
Michael J. Mahon
There's a fine example of how spending a couple hundred bytes on fast
in-line 16-bit arithmetic in just a couple of dozen most frequently
used places would buy a good part of that 5x improvement on a 6502! ;-)
atfphot...@gmail.com
SWEET!
Thanks! I'll try that this weekend!
ATF