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Apple IIe troubleshooting
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Ianoid
May 3, 2014, 5:19:00 AM5/3/14
to
Hey all,
I was doing some messing around with my Apple IIe systems and one of them went kaput.
It starts up to the Apple ][ screen and "]" prompt but does not recognize any cards. Specifically it does not recognize the disk ][ interface card I have tried with it, and the other computer confirmed the card works fine. pr#6 and the computer freezes (with disk interface card in slot 6).
Subsequently I found that the Disk I/O card I was using (previously worked) with it seems to have gone caput. Perhaps that was the problem.
Is there an obvious repair I can make on the unit to get it working that comes to mind? Would love to just swap out a socketed chip (perhaps one that I can find reasonably) rather than solder, since I'm not set up to solder at this time.
If we can't figure out the repair and it's not an easy fix, I'll have to sell the thing for parts. I'd prefer it go to someone who wants to keep it together and fix it.
I was doing some messing around with my Apple IIe systems and one of them went kaput.
It starts up to the Apple ][ screen and "]" prompt but does not recognize any cards. Specifically it does not recognize the disk ][ interface card I have tried with it, and the other computer confirmed the card works fine. pr#6 and the computer freezes (with disk interface card in slot 6).
Subsequently I found that the Disk I/O card I was using (previously worked) with it seems to have gone caput. Perhaps that was the problem.
Is there an obvious repair I can make on the unit to get it working that comes to mind? Would love to just swap out a socketed chip (perhaps one that I can find reasonably) rather than solder, since I'm not set up to solder at this time.
If we can't figure out the repair and it's not an easy fix, I'll have to sell the thing for parts. I'd prefer it go to someone who wants to keep it together and fix it.
MarkO_
May 3, 2014, 7:07:14 PM5/3/14
to
Did you try the Built-In Diagnostics to see if it gives any Errors??
Ianoid
May 4, 2014, 12:47:00 AM5/4/14
to
On Saturday, May 3, 2014 6:07:14 PM UTC-5, MarkO_ wrote:
> Did you try the Built-In Diagnostics to see if it gives any Errors??
How do I do that?
> Did you try the Built-In Diagnostics to see if it gives any Errors??
And to think I've been using diagnostic programs!
Thanks for the reply!
Antoine Vignau
May 4, 2014, 2:12:50 AM5/4/14
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For my knowledge, is there a diagnostics in ROM for the Apple IIe unenhanced? I think he was the unenhanced version because it does not display //e but ][.
I have always thought there was none. Please correct me if I am wrong.
IIRC, press ctrl-reset and the two apples at boot time (open and closed apples)
Antoine
I have always thought there was none. Please correct me if I am wrong.
IIRC, press ctrl-reset and the two apples at boot time (open and closed apples)
Antoine
Steve Nickolas
May 4, 2014, 2:19:41 AM5/4/14
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On Sat, 3 May 2014, Antoine Vignau wrote:
> For my knowledge, is there a diagnostics in ROM for the Apple IIe
> unenhanced? I think he was the unenhanced version because it does not
> display //e but ][.
There is, pretty sure. Closed Apple-Ctrl-Reset.
> For my knowledge, is there a diagnostics in ROM for the Apple IIe
> unenhanced? I think he was the unenhanced version because it does not
> display //e but ][.
But it's rather limited.
-uso.
Don Bruder
May 4, 2014, 12:10:36 PM5/4/14
to
In article <f8738ffa-89d7-4629...@googlegroups.com>,
Built-in diagnostics are just about useless for anything beyond "Yep,
the motherboard works" confirmation, but...
Power-up while holding both apple keys down. OR unplug the keyboard
connector from the motherboard and then turn on the power to make it
repeat forever. Either way will throw you into the "burn-in" tests.
They're very basic, and highly unlikely to diagnose anything wrong with
a card in a slot, since they were designed around the idea of "does this
motherboard function - at all?". But you might get lucky.
Once you've tried that, get into the machine and check your slots
physically. You're looking for something that may be gumming up the
works. Since I think I recall you saying the card worked in another
machine, that's about the only possibility left.
--
Security provided by Mssrs Smith and/or Wesson. Brought to you by the letter Q
the motherboard works" confirmation, but...
Power-up while holding both apple keys down. OR unplug the keyboard
connector from the motherboard and then turn on the power to make it
repeat forever. Either way will throw you into the "burn-in" tests.
They're very basic, and highly unlikely to diagnose anything wrong with
a card in a slot, since they were designed around the idea of "does this
motherboard function - at all?". But you might get lucky.
Once you've tried that, get into the machine and check your slots
physically. You're looking for something that may be gumming up the
works. Since I think I recall you saying the card worked in another
machine, that's about the only possibility left.
--
Security provided by Mssrs Smith and/or Wesson. Brought to you by the letter Q
Ianoid
May 4, 2014, 2:07:56 PM5/4/14
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Thanks again for your help!
To be honest I made the embarrassing error of inserting a card while powered up. I know better, it's not like I'm inexperienced with Apple II's. Obviously wasn't being disciplined enough unplugging power while messing with it. Now the bad IIe boots to the cursor, without checking the card slots.
It is an unenhanced IIe. When I do ctrl-closed apple-reset it gives me Kernel OK, so maybe it's not the motherboard- but still it doesn't seem to acknowledge any disk interface or IO cards, so I'm still a little suspicious. The Disk IO card seems to be shot since the accident, given that it causes my other IIe to boot to gibberish (when last weekend the IO card worked ok). This now bad IIe system had a serial interface card, AE 80 column card and IO card at the time. I was inserting a CFFA3000. Luckily the CFFA3000 still works, but the IO card is probably shot. Yes I am embarrassed. I would have died without my CFFA3000.
I also have a Disk ][ Interface card that I am using in another computer. I just went through and tested the Disk Interface card with every slot in the problem computer, without any other cards installed, and it was never recognized, and the problem computer still boots to beep "Apple ][" and "]" prompt, same as before. I then put the Disk Interface card back in my working computer and it works fine. Which is why I'm pretty sure it's not the interface card.
I just went through and cleaned the slots a bit. I wouldn't expect that to be the problem given that I've been using this particular now dysfunctional computer for a year and a half now. I was migrating to an 'enhanced' IIe that I recently picked up when I caused the working unit to stop working normally. Still no response to a disk interface card in the slots.
I went through the SAMS guide for Apple II+/IIe repair and it pretty much describes every scenario for start up issues except for the one I'm experiencing.
Thanks again for your responses.
To be honest I made the embarrassing error of inserting a card while powered up. I know better, it's not like I'm inexperienced with Apple II's. Obviously wasn't being disciplined enough unplugging power while messing with it. Now the bad IIe boots to the cursor, without checking the card slots.
It is an unenhanced IIe. When I do ctrl-closed apple-reset it gives me Kernel OK, so maybe it's not the motherboard- but still it doesn't seem to acknowledge any disk interface or IO cards, so I'm still a little suspicious. The Disk IO card seems to be shot since the accident, given that it causes my other IIe to boot to gibberish (when last weekend the IO card worked ok). This now bad IIe system had a serial interface card, AE 80 column card and IO card at the time. I was inserting a CFFA3000. Luckily the CFFA3000 still works, but the IO card is probably shot. Yes I am embarrassed. I would have died without my CFFA3000.
I also have a Disk ][ Interface card that I am using in another computer. I just went through and tested the Disk Interface card with every slot in the problem computer, without any other cards installed, and it was never recognized, and the problem computer still boots to beep "Apple ][" and "]" prompt, same as before. I then put the Disk Interface card back in my working computer and it works fine. Which is why I'm pretty sure it's not the interface card.
I just went through and cleaned the slots a bit. I wouldn't expect that to be the problem given that I've been using this particular now dysfunctional computer for a year and a half now. I was migrating to an 'enhanced' IIe that I recently picked up when I caused the working unit to stop working normally. Still no response to a disk interface card in the slots.
I went through the SAMS guide for Apple II+/IIe repair and it pretty much describes every scenario for start up issues except for the one I'm experiencing.
Thanks again for your responses.
Antoine Vignau
May 4, 2014, 3:44:14 PM5/4/14
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Hum, better seller than user, Ian :-)
I hope one will solve your issues, I am not good with that subject, sorry,
antoine
I hope one will solve your issues, I am not good with that subject, sorry,
antoine
Michael J. Mahon
May 4, 2014, 8:13:01 PM5/4/14
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It sounds like a bussed signal on the slot bus was creamed. It could be an
address line or a data line, or something as catastrophic as the R/W
signal.
If the card bus signal is buffered, the problem may be fixed just by
replacing the buffering IC. If it's connected directly to a more complex
chip (IOU, processor, etc.) then that connected chip may need replacing.
It will take at least a logic probe to determine which signal is now
"stuck".
That red "power" LED by the slots was supposed to inhibit your brain from
removing, inserting, or even wiggling, cards, but you overrode it. ;-(
--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://home.comcast.net/~mjmahon
Michael J. Mahon
May 4, 2014, 8:13:02 PM5/4/14
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are both smaller and better, though. ;-)
Ianoid
May 5, 2014, 9:25:57 AM5/5/14
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--
@MichaelJMahon et al
Ah, I just found some suggestions for "Card in peripheral slot won't work" in the SAMS Apple II+/IIe Troubleshooting & Repair Guide. They suggest:
Replacing 74LS138 at B5
Replacing 74LS154 at C10
Replacing 74LS10 at C5
Not all at once, but one at a time and seeing if each one helps.
Do those chips seem about right, when you refer to "buffering IC"? Is there one you suggest I attack first?
It looks like I should be able to buy each chip on eBay for $5 or so. Is there one you suggest I attack first? Is there somewhere you suggest I look for this stuff other than eBay?
What happened:
I got an new enhanced IIe with a lot (new to me at least), and decided to swap it out for my unenhanced IIe as my working unit. I had both units open, swapping cards between them to get a nice setup. When I went to test a Duodisk with the old computer, I found it wasn't reading disks, so I was going to move my CFFA into the old computer (as if old has any meaning here) to run the disk clean/sweep software with a cleaning disk (rather than moving the disk interface card and drives), which usually does the trick for these finicky Duodisks. Forgot to power down/unplug while putting a card in and voila, messed it up.
Thanks again!
Don Bruder
May 5, 2014, 12:33:27 PM5/5/14
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In article <8223df52-f4dc-41f6...@googlegroups.com>,
address decoding.
> Replacing 74LS154 at C10
4-to-16 line decoder - Another very likely suspect. Same reason.
> Replacing 74LS10 at C5
Triple three-input NAND gate. A very generic chip that might be doing
almost anything (NAND gates are also called "universal" gates because
when <pick a number> of them are wired together properly, they can
function as every other type of gate)
>
> Not all at once, but one at a time and seeing if each one helps.
>
> Do those chips seem about right, when you refer to "buffering IC"? Is there
> one you suggest I attack first?
>
> It looks like I should be able to buy each chip on eBay for $5 or so.
Forget Ebay - go to someplace like Mouser electronics. The 74xxx series
of chips are "commodity" units - Unless it's a particularly oddball or
rare one (and none of the ones in an Apple were) it ought to be less
than a buck.
Ianoid <ian...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, May 4, 2014 2:44:14 PM UTC-5, Antoine Vignau wrote:
> > Hum, better seller than user, Ian :-)
> >
> > I hope one will solve your issues, I am not good with that subject, sorry,
> >
> > antoine
>
> EASY NOW. And thanks!
>
> --
>
> @MichaelJMahon et al
> Ah, I just found some suggestions for "Card in peripheral slot won't work" in
> the SAMS Apple II+/IIe Troubleshooting & Repair Guide. They suggest:
> Replacing 74LS138 at B5
3-to-8 demux - Very likely suspect. Likely to be heavily involved in
> On Sunday, May 4, 2014 2:44:14 PM UTC-5, Antoine Vignau wrote:
> > Hum, better seller than user, Ian :-)
> >
> > I hope one will solve your issues, I am not good with that subject, sorry,
> >
> > antoine
>
> EASY NOW. And thanks!
>
> --
>
> @MichaelJMahon et al
> Ah, I just found some suggestions for "Card in peripheral slot won't work" in
> the SAMS Apple II+/IIe Troubleshooting & Repair Guide. They suggest:
> Replacing 74LS138 at B5
address decoding.
> Replacing 74LS154 at C10
4-to-16 line decoder - Another very likely suspect. Same reason.
> Replacing 74LS10 at C5
Triple three-input NAND gate. A very generic chip that might be doing
almost anything (NAND gates are also called "universal" gates because
when <pick a number> of them are wired together properly, they can
function as every other type of gate)
>
> Not all at once, but one at a time and seeing if each one helps.
>
> Do those chips seem about right, when you refer to "buffering IC"? Is there
> one you suggest I attack first?
>
> It looks like I should be able to buy each chip on eBay for $5 or so.
of chips are "commodity" units - Unless it's a particularly oddball or
rare one (and none of the ones in an Apple were) it ought to be less
than a buck.
Steven Hirsch
May 5, 2014, 6:12:56 PM5/5/14
to
On 05/05/2014 12:33 PM, Don Bruder wrote:
>> It looks like I should be able to buy each chip on eBay for $5 or so.
> Forget Ebay - go to someplace like Mouser electronics. The 74xxx series
> of chips are "commodity" units - Unless it's a particularly oddball or
> rare one (and none of the ones in an Apple were) it ought to be less
> than a buck.
Actually, for 74xxx parts Unicorn Electronics and Jameco are typically the
>> It looks like I should be able to buy each chip on eBay for $5 or so.
> Forget Ebay - go to someplace like Mouser electronics. The 74xxx series
> of chips are "commodity" units - Unless it's a particularly oddball or
> rare one (and none of the ones in an Apple were) it ought to be less
> than a buck.
best bet price-wise. I've done a lot of business with both of them over the
years. Occasionally I'll find a more obscure part that neither of them
carries and end up with Mouser or DigiKey.
osg...@cheesefactory.us
May 5, 2014, 8:00:56 PM5/5/14
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Don Bruder
May 5, 2014, 9:21:26 PM5/5/14
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In article <YbednUEAGeh1kfXO...@giganews.com>,
Mouser was just the outfit I came up with off the top of my head. Unless
you get incredibly lucky, just about anyplace other than eBay would
likely be a better price.
I used to strip older digi-gear for lots of different 74xxx chips - A
batch of physically damaged Apollo workstations served as a *BIG* source
at one point - Those stacks of cracked boards, each nearly 2 feet on a
side, stuffed full of row after row after row of chips that were just
fine... :)
For a while, having a project "on the boil" was kinda like crossing a
scavenger hunt with a truck full of Tinkertoys, Legos, and Erector sets,
then throwing in a soldering iron. :)
you get incredibly lucky, just about anyplace other than eBay would
likely be a better price.
I used to strip older digi-gear for lots of different 74xxx chips - A
batch of physically damaged Apollo workstations served as a *BIG* source
at one point - Those stacks of cracked boards, each nearly 2 feet on a
side, stuffed full of row after row after row of chips that were just
fine... :)
For a while, having a project "on the boil" was kinda like crossing a
scavenger hunt with a truck full of Tinkertoys, Legos, and Erector sets,
then throwing in a soldering iron. :)
Michael J. Mahon
May 5, 2014, 9:36:43 PM5/5/14
to
Does someone in the group have experience with most likely failures after a
"hot insertion"?
The rocking that is usually done to insert a card shorts adjacent contacts
together on the slot connector, and some of those contain voltages lethal
to TTL chips, like +12 and -12, even -5.
A first guess would be to look at what chips are connected to pins adjacent
to those voltages. The card may connect non-adjacent pins, too--especially
after an overvoltage. Ultimately, there may be more than one failed chip,
so don't only replace them one at a time.
It would be interesting to know if other card(s) work in the slots--like a
printer card. You need to know if *all* the slots are not working, or if
it's only one, or if it's just a blown card.
Also, don't try the (probably) failed CFFA card until you can verify that
it's not killing other slots!
Ianoid
May 6, 2014, 7:31:25 AM5/6/14
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Too late, I already am using the CFFA in the other computer. It seems to work fine. I did try a working Disk Interface card with all of the slots, and no slot is responsive. Again, that Disk Interface card works fine in the other computer as well.
I pretty much hadn't gotten to the rocking part, I just was about to seat the CFFA when I noticed the computer was on. It went down straight down slightly and then I took it out. The Disk IO card in S6 died afterward. I find those Disk IO cards to be less reliable than Disk Interface cards.
I don't have a printer or printer card to test it with- everything is packed away for the time being. I have a serial card, but I'm not sure how I'd test it. The only card I can think of that would be easy to test with and get a response is a disk drive card. What other card would it be easy to use to confirm a functioning slot?
I'll go and look into buying those chips. If you have a suggestion as to other chips to replace, I'm game. Since I don't have the capability to check on IC function, it makes the most sense for me just to try replacing a few chips and crossing my fingers. I may get to the point of using a probe, but I'm definitely not there, and I don't have the equipment.
ian
retrogear
May 6, 2014, 10:38:17 AM5/6/14
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Here's a thought,
Since you can boot to a prompt, does the keyboard work? How about using the monitor to list the particular slot's rom? I'm guessing if a disk controller won't boot then typing C600L won't list the rom either. In general, any card in a particular slot should list rom for that slot. Putting a serial card in slot 2 and listing C200 would tell you the card is addressable so the slot might be good?
Larry
Since you can boot to a prompt, does the keyboard work? How about using the monitor to list the particular slot's rom? I'm guessing if a disk controller won't boot then typing C600L won't list the rom either. In general, any card in a particular slot should list rom for that slot. Putting a serial card in slot 2 and listing C200 would tell you the card is addressable so the slot might be good?
Larry
Ianoid
May 9, 2014, 4:12:37 AM5/9/14
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The keyboard works fine. I believe it responds like any Apple IIe would if you powered it on with nothing in the slots.
I'll try that and report back when I have a moment!
In the meantime, only Jameco seems to have all three chips I was going to try in stock, with the 74LS154 being not an obvious find at Mouser or Unicorn. And it's $5 at Jameco, whereas the other two ICs I was going to try are under $1.
And thanks for the suggestion for vendors! I'm happy to avoid eBay.
Thanks!
I'll try that and report back when I have a moment!
In the meantime, only Jameco seems to have all three chips I was going to try in stock, with the 74LS154 being not an obvious find at Mouser or Unicorn. And it's $5 at Jameco, whereas the other two ICs I was going to try are under $1.
And thanks for the suggestion for vendors! I'm happy to avoid eBay.
Thanks!
Ianoid
May 12, 2014, 6:37:46 PM5/12/14
to
I'm not at all sure what I should expect, so I'll just report what I get:
Serial card in slot 1, IO card in slot 6:
*C100
returns
C100-2C
*C200
returns
C200-A0
*C600
returns
C600-A2
I'm trying to replace those three chips, but if those results help, I'd love to know why, or at least if you have some direction, it would be great.
Thanks!
ian
On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 9:38:17 AM UTC-5, retrogear wrote:
Serial card in slot 1, IO card in slot 6:
*C100
returns
C100-2C
*C200
returns
C200-A0
*C600
returns
C600-A2
I'm trying to replace those three chips, but if those results help, I'd love to know why, or at least if you have some direction, it would be great.
Thanks!
ian
On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 9:38:17 AM UTC-5, retrogear wrote:
Ianoid
May 12, 2014, 6:53:50 PM5/12/14
to
So I replaced the three chips I mentioned, but the computer remains unchanged- booting, functioning, but not recognizing cards in the slots.
Does that monitor information help?
Any other ICs you guys recommend replacing in this IIe? It's pretty easy and quick to order from Mouser, so I'm happy to pick up more parts as directed, as long as they don't require soldering.
Thanks!
ian
On Monday, May 5, 2014 8:36:43 PM UTC-5, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
retrogear
May 12, 2014, 10:15:50 PM5/12/14
to
>*C600
>returns
>C600-A2
A2 is the first byte of the slot 6 disk card. That indicates it is reading the
rom address and data. I meant to type *C600L to get a listing of the rom
something like this:
C600 A2 20 LDX #$20
C602 A0 00 LDY #$00
C604 A2 03 LDX #$03
C606 86 3C STX $3C
C608 8A TXA
C609 0A ASL A
C60A 24 3C BIT $3C
C60C F0 10 BEQ $C61E
C60E 05 3C ORA $3C
(and so on)
if it's reading the ROM like this then try:
*C600G
to execute the boot floppy code with the disk drive connected.
The motor should come on and the drive recalibrate. If no drive activity,
and the card and drive are ok and connected correctly then I would think more like a power supply problem feeding the card to power the motor, etc. There are
+5 -5 +12 -12 supply lines feeding and if one is bad then I would think you could have a condition as you describe. Let me end this by saying I do not have experience troubleshooting Apple II computers in particular but many years of troubleshooting electronics and pc's in general. So my advice is worth about
two cents :)
Larry
Michael J. Mahon
May 13, 2014, 2:45:41 PM5/13/14
to
If the rest of the machine works, including video, then power is almost
certainly reaching the slots.
If power is not making it from the slot to the drive, there are connections
on the card, a cable and two connectors, and the drive's select logic that
could be an issue.
Under the rash assumption that no card, cable, or drive is killing other
things, it is *extremely* helpful to isolate which subassembly is failing.
This is easily done by swapping one element at a time in a working system:
processor, disk controller, cable, and drive.
When you discover which subassembly "moves the fault", then you have (very
likely) discovered which subassembly contains the fault.
If it's still the processor, then fault isolation can move to the next
level--inside the processor.
If you can list the contents of the disk controller's ROM, then the address
and data lines are working and /IOSELECT for the slot is working.
Of course, +5v is also working.
You can reference the MOTORON and MOTOROFF soft switches directly for the
controller slot using the monitor. If they don't start and stop the motor,
then any subassembly (above) could be bad. Isolating the failing
subassembly is critical.
Dean Claxton
Jan 12, 2023, 7:35:00 PM1/12/23
to
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