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ADTPRO 2.0.1 over audio fails sending disk
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Zoey Boles
Feb 18, 2016, 9:02:07 PM2/18/16
to
Howdy!
Just got my brand "new" Apple //e, and after burning through the provided demo disks, I decided to get ADT Pro up to get some more software on my computer.
I don't have a null modem cable, but I had some aux/patch cables handy, so I hooked up thorugh the cassette interface. I was able to follow the audio steps on the ADT Pro website, and got to the point where I had ProDOS and ADTPro in memory on the //e, but every attempt to transfer the ADT Pro image to my Disk ][ drive failed on or about the 4th packet.
I tested audio levels with the (?) feature of ADTPro, and over the course of all my research I left it running and successfully received 2000+ packets. I plugged headphones inbetween the computers and got an earful of data. I've opened up the microphone settings on my Windows host and verified that the //e is responding with data (the line meter pulses).
It gets to about block 16 and just returns to the main menu, with the server saying "Image Transfer Aborted". I set it to transfer 1 block at a time to see if maybe it was choking on the size of the transfers, but it failed the same way (back to menu) at the 4th block.
I'm not sure what to look for in the trace log, and I'm not sure what further I can do to debug this. The one thing I haven't tried yet is just using an older version of the software.
I've got a null modem on the way, but I'd way prefer to be able to hack away right now (and anyway, I'm patient, and it just feels "right" to use the cassette interface).
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Just got my brand "new" Apple //e, and after burning through the provided demo disks, I decided to get ADT Pro up to get some more software on my computer.
I don't have a null modem cable, but I had some aux/patch cables handy, so I hooked up thorugh the cassette interface. I was able to follow the audio steps on the ADT Pro website, and got to the point where I had ProDOS and ADTPro in memory on the //e, but every attempt to transfer the ADT Pro image to my Disk ][ drive failed on or about the 4th packet.
I tested audio levels with the (?) feature of ADTPro, and over the course of all my research I left it running and successfully received 2000+ packets. I plugged headphones inbetween the computers and got an earful of data. I've opened up the microphone settings on my Windows host and verified that the //e is responding with data (the line meter pulses).
It gets to about block 16 and just returns to the main menu, with the server saying "Image Transfer Aborted". I set it to transfer 1 block at a time to see if maybe it was choking on the size of the transfers, but it failed the same way (back to menu) at the 4th block.
I'm not sure what to look for in the trace log, and I'm not sure what further I can do to debug this. The one thing I haven't tried yet is just using an older version of the software.
I've got a null modem on the way, but I'd way prefer to be able to hack away right now (and anyway, I'm patient, and it just feels "right" to use the cassette interface).
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Don Bruder
Feb 18, 2016, 9:33:35 PM2/18/16
to
In article <_Oqdne-40NsD6lvL...@giganews.com>,
Try diddling the volume on the source side. Start by dropping it to as
low as will "tickle" the Apple enough to respond, at least
intermittently, then SSLLLLOOOOOOOOOOWWWWLY raise it. Overdriving the
cassette input on an Apple II is *AT LEAST* as bad as not driving it
hard enough. Too much volue and the signal turns into a sludge of solid
(or nearly so) ones, with not a zero to be seen. Not enough, and there's
no such thing as a one to be seen. Get it just right, and, of course,
everything is golden.
Dunno what kind of hardware you're sourcing from, but that may also be
super-picky about signal level - The Apple may be doing just fine, but
the source machine may not be liking how the Apple is "speaking back",
so look at things from that direction, too.
--
Security provided by Mssrs Smith and/or Wesson. Brought to you by the letter Q
low as will "tickle" the Apple enough to respond, at least
intermittently, then SSLLLLOOOOOOOOOOWWWWLY raise it. Overdriving the
cassette input on an Apple II is *AT LEAST* as bad as not driving it
hard enough. Too much volue and the signal turns into a sludge of solid
(or nearly so) ones, with not a zero to be seen. Not enough, and there's
no such thing as a one to be seen. Get it just right, and, of course,
everything is golden.
Dunno what kind of hardware you're sourcing from, but that may also be
super-picky about signal level - The Apple may be doing just fine, but
the source machine may not be liking how the Apple is "speaking back",
so look at things from that direction, too.
--
Security provided by Mssrs Smith and/or Wesson. Brought to you by the letter Q
David Schmidt
Feb 18, 2016, 11:45:18 PM2/18/16
to
On 2/18/2016 9:33 PM, Don Bruder wrote:
> Dunno what kind of hardware you're sourcing from, but that may also be
> super-picky about signal level - The Apple may be doing just fine, but
> the source machine may not be liking how the Apple is "speaking back",
> so look at things from that direction, too.
Good advice. Another thing to look for on the host end, especially if
> Dunno what kind of hardware you're sourcing from, but that may also be
> super-picky about signal level - The Apple may be doing just fine, but
> the source machine may not be liking how the Apple is "speaking back",
> so look at things from that direction, too.
you're using Windows: extraneous crap in your audio driver. There are
lots of "enhancements" like reverb and expansion that actually interfere
with a clear audio signal. See:
http://adtpro.sourceforge.net/connectionsaudio.html#Additional
You might also set your client configuration to send just one block at
once and test that way:
http://adtpro.sourceforge.net/configaudio.html
Zoey Boles
Feb 19, 2016, 2:27:05 PM2/19/16
to
Yeah, I made sure reverb and stuff were off. There were no enhancements online.
I've tried it with mic boost on, and mic boost off. I've tried it with sound cancellation on and off. I ran the "packet test" on (?) and shuffled the volume up and down (to the point where packets stopped going through, then back up).
I'm currently on the working theory that there might be some interference between the input and output, as I've noticed that sometimes a transfer will fail with the server putting nonsense on the screen (A transfer is interrupted, and the server claims it's pulling a working directory listing for a set of garbage characters). I'm going to try taking the input through a separate USB sound decide, and also try using brand new patch cables.
I realized in time to cancel my null modem cord that my //e didn't come with a super serial card, so until I can get my hands on an Uthernet card, I'm going to be living in audio land.
I guess the bit that throws me is that the disk transfer failure ALWAYS happens on the fourth data packet. If it gets to the point where it's filling the transfer buffer, it ALWAYS fails on the fourth transfer, and that's just weird. I'd expect to see it fail at random times during transfer to the //e, with random amounts of buffer fill.
I've tried it with mic boost on, and mic boost off. I've tried it with sound cancellation on and off. I ran the "packet test" on (?) and shuffled the volume up and down (to the point where packets stopped going through, then back up).
I'm currently on the working theory that there might be some interference between the input and output, as I've noticed that sometimes a transfer will fail with the server putting nonsense on the screen (A transfer is interrupted, and the server claims it's pulling a working directory listing for a set of garbage characters). I'm going to try taking the input through a separate USB sound decide, and also try using brand new patch cables.
I realized in time to cancel my null modem cord that my //e didn't come with a super serial card, so until I can get my hands on an Uthernet card, I'm going to be living in audio land.
I guess the bit that throws me is that the disk transfer failure ALWAYS happens on the fourth data packet. If it gets to the point where it's filling the transfer buffer, it ALWAYS fails on the fourth transfer, and that's just weird. I'd expect to see it fail at random times during transfer to the //e, with random amounts of buffer fill.
David Schmidt
Feb 19, 2016, 3:30:17 PM2/19/16
to
On 2/19/2016 2:27 PM, Zoey Boles wrote:
> Yeah, I made sure reverb and stuff were off. There were no
> enhancements online.
Ok, cool.
> Yeah, I made sure reverb and stuff were off. There were no
> enhancements online.
> I guess the bit that throws me is that the disk transfer failure
> ALWAYS happens on the fourth data packet.
And... do you have success with other images, but not this one?
Zoey Boles
Feb 22, 2016, 1:04:58 AM2/22/16
to
It's a Festivus Miracle!
I finally ran into a post on the ADTPro support forums mentioning Left/Right balance on audio pins for use in data transfer, and that was the magic ingredient. My motherboard came with a fancy-dandy special purpose "audio manager" app which does it's own magic above and beyond that provided by the OS. (Silently, of course, so you could fiddle with the OS panels to your heart's content and it'd change some, but not all, of the sound card settings... silently.)
I...
1) Turned off all features; filters, reverb, etc, and used the volume mixer to mute ALL programs* except for ADTPro.
2) Set the microphone volume to 50%, and set the balance to LEFT.
3) Set the speaker volume to 75%, and set the balance to CENTER.
4) Fiddle with ADTPro running ping packets, fiddling the volume for the microphone UP until I *just barely* get solid packets.
As soon as I did the above an it worked, I had a serious DUHH moment.
The problem I've been having is spureous input to the microphone during transfers, causing ADTPro to think there were incoming commands.
The key being that Stereo-LEFT on the tip of the micro-stero plug is the exact same "zone" on the plug used as the signal "pin" of mono jacks; the RIGHT zone of the plug is actually a hack, taking up some of the space used in Woz-cassette-era mono jacks for "ground." The default setting of "center channel" for both input and output meant that my sound card was shouting data into the ground of the Apple ]['s cassette interface, which was then being picked up in the "right" channel of the microphone, which was then helpfully being mixed by Windows.
By setting the mic to pick up only the left hand channel, my sound card is only reading the data from the mono signal being sent by the Apple ][. Great success!
However, when I set the speaker to left only, ADTPro acted like it was only receiving partial data, or no data at all, in response to requests sent over the wire. My guess is that my sound card might not be driving enough signal to the jack tip to really make the cassette interface happy... even at 100%. Setting it to center (for my machine) and 75% volume did it.
I provide all this information so hopefully the next newb trying to figure out what's going on has more information to hit on... and also to act as a very wordy thank you to David Schmidt for both the program and his help debugging this problem. I'm now able to write disks like a boss. (Now I have to figure out why I'm getting write errors in my second drive, but that's a challenge for another day.)
I would suggest that the Audio Connection page on the ADTPro website have a slightly more obvious section talking about the balance on the microphone port... I read over that page multiple times and it was only while drafting this response that I realized it actually DID mention microphone "stereo" "balance". I don't think of a microphone as being a "stereo device" even though it has a three-conductor plug, and I'm gonna bet most people running into this problem think the same way.
I offer my 4 steps above, and the following information as to why it needs to be that way, for use on the website verbatim or in edited form if you'd like. I can only hope this information relieves somebody else's frustration because, seriously, this program is a slick hack and it's frustrating that something as silly as monaural microphone input being treated as "stereo" causing the whole thing to trainwreck!
* Side note, I realized on my third failed data transfer that Google Hangouts was playing chimes in the datastream causing the disk transfers to fail. Derp.
I finally ran into a post on the ADTPro support forums mentioning Left/Right balance on audio pins for use in data transfer, and that was the magic ingredient. My motherboard came with a fancy-dandy special purpose "audio manager" app which does it's own magic above and beyond that provided by the OS. (Silently, of course, so you could fiddle with the OS panels to your heart's content and it'd change some, but not all, of the sound card settings... silently.)
I...
1) Turned off all features; filters, reverb, etc, and used the volume mixer to mute ALL programs* except for ADTPro.
2) Set the microphone volume to 50%, and set the balance to LEFT.
3) Set the speaker volume to 75%, and set the balance to CENTER.
4) Fiddle with ADTPro running ping packets, fiddling the volume for the microphone UP until I *just barely* get solid packets.
As soon as I did the above an it worked, I had a serious DUHH moment.
The problem I've been having is spureous input to the microphone during transfers, causing ADTPro to think there were incoming commands.
The key being that Stereo-LEFT on the tip of the micro-stero plug is the exact same "zone" on the plug used as the signal "pin" of mono jacks; the RIGHT zone of the plug is actually a hack, taking up some of the space used in Woz-cassette-era mono jacks for "ground." The default setting of "center channel" for both input and output meant that my sound card was shouting data into the ground of the Apple ]['s cassette interface, which was then being picked up in the "right" channel of the microphone, which was then helpfully being mixed by Windows.
By setting the mic to pick up only the left hand channel, my sound card is only reading the data from the mono signal being sent by the Apple ][. Great success!
However, when I set the speaker to left only, ADTPro acted like it was only receiving partial data, or no data at all, in response to requests sent over the wire. My guess is that my sound card might not be driving enough signal to the jack tip to really make the cassette interface happy... even at 100%. Setting it to center (for my machine) and 75% volume did it.
I provide all this information so hopefully the next newb trying to figure out what's going on has more information to hit on... and also to act as a very wordy thank you to David Schmidt for both the program and his help debugging this problem. I'm now able to write disks like a boss. (Now I have to figure out why I'm getting write errors in my second drive, but that's a challenge for another day.)
I would suggest that the Audio Connection page on the ADTPro website have a slightly more obvious section talking about the balance on the microphone port... I read over that page multiple times and it was only while drafting this response that I realized it actually DID mention microphone "stereo" "balance". I don't think of a microphone as being a "stereo device" even though it has a three-conductor plug, and I'm gonna bet most people running into this problem think the same way.
I offer my 4 steps above, and the following information as to why it needs to be that way, for use on the website verbatim or in edited form if you'd like. I can only hope this information relieves somebody else's frustration because, seriously, this program is a slick hack and it's frustrating that something as silly as monaural microphone input being treated as "stereo" causing the whole thing to trainwreck!
* Side note, I realized on my third failed data transfer that Google Hangouts was playing chimes in the datastream causing the disk transfers to fail. Derp.
David Schmidt
Feb 22, 2016, 10:18:04 AM2/22/16
to
On 2/22/2016 1:04 AM, Zoey Boles wrote:
> It's a Festivus Miracle!
Huzzah!
> It's a Festivus Miracle!
> My motherboard came with a fancy-dandy special purpose "audio
> manager" app which does it's own magic above and beyond that provided
> by the OS. (Silently, of course, so you could fiddle with the OS
> panels to your heart's content and it'd change some, but not all, of
> the sound card settings... silently.)
Michael J. Mahon
Feb 22, 2016, 3:13:44 PM2/22/16
to
--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
David Schmidt
Feb 22, 2016, 3:27:22 PM2/22/16
to
On 2/22/2016 3:13 PM, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
> David Schmidt <schm...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> On 2/22/2016 1:04 AM, Zoey Boles wrote:
>>> It's a Festivus Miracle!
>>
>> Huzzah!
>>
>>> My motherboard came with a fancy-dandy special purpose "audio
>>> manager" app which does it's own magic above and beyond that provided
>>> by the OS. (Silently, of course, so you could fiddle with the OS
>>> panels to your heart's content and it'd change some, but not all, of
>>> the sound card settings... silently.)
>>
>> Argh. It's always the stupid audio fanciness at fault. Always.
>>
>
> Not to mention the use of stereo plugs in mono jacks... ;-(
Very good point. I think a reorg of the ADTPro audio page is in order.
> David Schmidt <schm...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> On 2/22/2016 1:04 AM, Zoey Boles wrote:
>>> It's a Festivus Miracle!
>>
>> Huzzah!
>>
>>> My motherboard came with a fancy-dandy special purpose "audio
>>> manager" app which does it's own magic above and beyond that provided
>>> by the OS. (Silently, of course, so you could fiddle with the OS
>>> panels to your heart's content and it'd change some, but not all, of
>>> the sound card settings... silently.)
>>
>> Argh. It's always the stupid audio fanciness at fault. Always.
>>
>
> Not to mention the use of stereo plugs in mono jacks... ;-(
Zoey Boles
Feb 22, 2016, 8:28:08 PM2/22/16
to
Indeed. My shame knows know bounds; I dont think I've ever even owned a mono cable, I'd never even considered they were stereo until I ran into this problem. I learned an awful lot about phone plugs in a short time :D
Antoine Vignau
Mar 6, 2016, 7:15:28 AM3/6/16
to
So, once more ADTPro by David Schmidt did not fail, despite the title of the thread.
I again vote for ADTPro, the best Apple II software (nearly) ever made.
av
I again vote for ADTPro, the best Apple II software (nearly) ever made.
av
Nootrac90
Mar 6, 2016, 2:43:46 PM3/6/16
to
Dana
giorgio....@alice.it
Mar 8, 2016, 2:11:44 AM3/8/16
to
Il Sun, 6 Mar 2016 04:15:27 -0800 (PST), Antoine Vignau
<antoine...@laposte.net> ha scritto:
>So, once more ADTPro by David Schmidt did not fail, despite the title of the thread.
>
>I again vote for ADTPro, the best Apple II software (nearly) ever made.
>
Ohhh, YES!
Me too!
Giorgio
<antoine...@laposte.net> ha scritto:
>So, once more ADTPro by David Schmidt did not fail, despite the title of the thread.
>
>I again vote for ADTPro, the best Apple II software (nearly) ever made.
>
Me too!
Giorgio
James Davis
Oct 4, 2017, 4:01:17 PM10/4/17
to
Hi Zoey, (and David Schmidtd),
On Sunday, February 21, 2016 at 10:04:58 PM UTC-8, Zoey Boles wrote:
> It's a Festivus Miracle!
>
> I finally ran into a post on the ADTPro support forums mentioning Left/Right balance on audio pins for use in data transfer, and that was the magic ingredient. My motherboard came with a fancy-dandy special purpose "audio manager" app which does it's own magic above and beyond that provided by the OS. (Silently, of course, so you could fiddle with the OS panels to your heart's content and it'd change some, but not all, of the sound card settings... silently.)
>
> I...
>
> 1) Turned off all features; filters, reverb, etc, and used the volume mixer to mute ALL programs* except for ADTPro.
> 2) Set the microphone volume to 50%, and set the balance to LEFT.
> 3) Set the speaker volume to 75%, and set the balance to CENTER.
> 4) Fiddle with ADTPro running ping packets, fiddling the volume for the microphone UP until I *just barely* get solid packets.
>
> As soon as I did the above an it worked, I had a serious DUHH moment.
>
> The problem I've been having is spureous input to the microphone during transfers, causing ADTPro to think there were incoming commands.
>
> The key being that Stereo-LEFT on the tip of the micro-stero plug is the exact same "zone" on the plug used as the signal "pin" of mono jacks; the RIGHT zone of the plug is actually a hack, taking up some of the space used in Woz-cassette-era mono jacks for "ground." The default setting of "center channel" for both input and output meant that my sound card was shouting data into the ground of the Apple ]['s cassette interface, which was then being picked up in the "right" channel of the microphone, which was then helpfully being mixed by Windows.
>
> By setting the mic to pick up only the left hand channel, my sound card is only reading the data from the mono signal being sent by the Apple ][. Great success!
>
> However, when I set the speaker to left only, ADTPro acted like it was only receiving partial data, or no data at all, in response to requests sent over the wire. My guess is that my sound card might not be driving enough signal to the jack tip to really make the cassette interface happy... even at 100%. Setting it to center (for my machine) and 75% volume did it.
>
> I provide all this information so hopefully the next newb trying to figure out what's going on has more information to hit on... and also to act as a very wordy thank you to David Schmidt for both the program and his help debugging this problem. I'm now able to write disks like a boss. (Now I have to figure out why I'm getting write errors in my second drive, but that's a challenge for another day.)
>
> I would suggest that the Audio Connection page on the ADTPro website have a slightly more obvious section talking about the balance on the microphone port... I read over that page multiple times and it was only while drafting this response that I realized it actually DID mention microphone "stereo" "balance". I don't think of a microphone as being a "stereo device" even though it has a three-conductor plug, and I'm gonna bet most people running into this problem think the same way.
>
> I offer my 4 steps above, and the following information as to why it needs to be that way, for use on the website verbatim or in edited form if you'd like. I can only hope this information relieves somebody else's frustration because, seriously, this program is a slick hack and it's frustrating that something as silly as monaural microphone input being treated as "stereo" causing the whole thing to trainwreck!
>
> * Side note, I realized on my third failed data transfer that Google Hangouts was playing chimes in the datastream causing the disk transfers to fail. Derp.
>
Can you give more details about how you detected and eliminated the extra sound driver software?
And, what levels of signal finally worked for you, with or without microphone boost, etc.?
If I Disable all Enhancements--e.g., DC Offset Cancellation, Noise Suppression, Acoustic Echo Cancellation, and Immediate Mode--I have a very noisy connection with high levels of static. I can hear it by listening to the input, either by jacking-in to the input with a Y-adapter & with ear-buds, or by echoing to the output speakers (or to ear-buds, also jacked in the same way)--(e.g., "listening to this device" on the "listen" tab of the control applet).
Like Zoey, I have tried many combinations, but I have not been successful in getting ADT Server to hear the Apple ADT Client. So, more details and any more suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Yours truly,
James Davis
On Sunday, February 21, 2016 at 10:04:58 PM UTC-8, Zoey Boles wrote:
> It's a Festivus Miracle!
>
> I finally ran into a post on the ADTPro support forums mentioning Left/Right balance on audio pins for use in data transfer, and that was the magic ingredient. My motherboard came with a fancy-dandy special purpose "audio manager" app which does it's own magic above and beyond that provided by the OS. (Silently, of course, so you could fiddle with the OS panels to your heart's content and it'd change some, but not all, of the sound card settings... silently.)
>
> I...
>
> 1) Turned off all features; filters, reverb, etc, and used the volume mixer to mute ALL programs* except for ADTPro.
> 2) Set the microphone volume to 50%, and set the balance to LEFT.
> 3) Set the speaker volume to 75%, and set the balance to CENTER.
> 4) Fiddle with ADTPro running ping packets, fiddling the volume for the microphone UP until I *just barely* get solid packets.
>
> As soon as I did the above an it worked, I had a serious DUHH moment.
>
> The problem I've been having is spureous input to the microphone during transfers, causing ADTPro to think there were incoming commands.
>
> The key being that Stereo-LEFT on the tip of the micro-stero plug is the exact same "zone" on the plug used as the signal "pin" of mono jacks; the RIGHT zone of the plug is actually a hack, taking up some of the space used in Woz-cassette-era mono jacks for "ground." The default setting of "center channel" for both input and output meant that my sound card was shouting data into the ground of the Apple ]['s cassette interface, which was then being picked up in the "right" channel of the microphone, which was then helpfully being mixed by Windows.
>
> By setting the mic to pick up only the left hand channel, my sound card is only reading the data from the mono signal being sent by the Apple ][. Great success!
>
> However, when I set the speaker to left only, ADTPro acted like it was only receiving partial data, or no data at all, in response to requests sent over the wire. My guess is that my sound card might not be driving enough signal to the jack tip to really make the cassette interface happy... even at 100%. Setting it to center (for my machine) and 75% volume did it.
>
> I provide all this information so hopefully the next newb trying to figure out what's going on has more information to hit on... and also to act as a very wordy thank you to David Schmidt for both the program and his help debugging this problem. I'm now able to write disks like a boss. (Now I have to figure out why I'm getting write errors in my second drive, but that's a challenge for another day.)
>
> I would suggest that the Audio Connection page on the ADTPro website have a slightly more obvious section talking about the balance on the microphone port... I read over that page multiple times and it was only while drafting this response that I realized it actually DID mention microphone "stereo" "balance". I don't think of a microphone as being a "stereo device" even though it has a three-conductor plug, and I'm gonna bet most people running into this problem think the same way.
>
> I offer my 4 steps above, and the following information as to why it needs to be that way, for use on the website verbatim or in edited form if you'd like. I can only hope this information relieves somebody else's frustration because, seriously, this program is a slick hack and it's frustrating that something as silly as monaural microphone input being treated as "stereo" causing the whole thing to trainwreck!
>
> * Side note, I realized on my third failed data transfer that Google Hangouts was playing chimes in the datastream causing the disk transfers to fail. Derp.
>
> On 19 Feb 2016 02:30 PM ,David Schmidt wrote:
> > On 2/19/2016 2:27 PM, Zoey Boles wrote:
> > > Yeah, I made sure reverb and stuff were off. There were no
> > > enhancements online.
> >
> > Ok, cool.
> >
> > > I guess the bit that throws me is that the disk transfer failure
> > > ALWAYS happens on the fourth data packet.
> >
> > That's significant. What is your blocks-at-once setting set to?
> >
> > And... do you have success with other images, but not this one?
>
>
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>
>
>
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I am having the same or a worse problem! I cannot get ADTpro 2.0.2 Server on my PC to hear the pulses sent from the Client on my Enhanced Apple IIe.
> > On 2/19/2016 2:27 PM, Zoey Boles wrote:
> > > Yeah, I made sure reverb and stuff were off. There were no
> > > enhancements online.
> >
> > Ok, cool.
> >
> > > I guess the bit that throws me is that the disk transfer failure
> > > ALWAYS happens on the fourth data packet.
> >
> > That's significant. What is your blocks-at-once setting set to?
> >
> > And... do you have success with other images, but not this one?
>
>
> --
> Posted by Mimo Usenet Browser v0.2.5
> http://www.mimousenet.com/mimo/post
>
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Can you give more details about how you detected and eliminated the extra sound driver software?
And, what levels of signal finally worked for you, with or without microphone boost, etc.?
If I Disable all Enhancements--e.g., DC Offset Cancellation, Noise Suppression, Acoustic Echo Cancellation, and Immediate Mode--I have a very noisy connection with high levels of static. I can hear it by listening to the input, either by jacking-in to the input with a Y-adapter & with ear-buds, or by echoing to the output speakers (or to ear-buds, also jacked in the same way)--(e.g., "listening to this device" on the "listen" tab of the control applet).
Like Zoey, I have tried many combinations, but I have not been successful in getting ADT Server to hear the Apple ADT Client. So, more details and any more suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Yours truly,
James Davis
David Schmidt
Oct 4, 2017, 4:37:53 PM10/4/17
to
On 10/4/2017 4:01 PM, James Davis wrote:
> [...]
unless/until you figure out how to eliminate this static (assuming it is
not just the "natural" sound of the data stream... which I guess could
be construed as static if you're not used to it).
Have you been using the ping function to see if it ever hears packets?
http://adtpro.com/connectionsaudio.html#Testing
> [...]
> If I Disable all Enhancements--e.g., DC Offset Cancellation, Noise Suppression, Acoustic Echo Cancellation, and Immediate Mode--I have a very noisy connection with high levels of static. I can hear it by listening to the input, either by jacking-in to the input with a Y-adapter & with ear-buds, or by echoing to the output speakers (or to ear-buds, also jacked in the same way)--(e.g., "listening to this device" on the "listen" tab of the control applet).
This is plainly bad. I would have no expectation of success
unless/until you figure out how to eliminate this static (assuming it is
not just the "natural" sound of the data stream... which I guess could
be construed as static if you're not used to it).
Have you been using the ping function to see if it ever hears packets?
http://adtpro.com/connectionsaudio.html#Testing
James Davis
Oct 4, 2017, 4:58:37 PM10/4/17
to
I'll keep trying.
James Davis.
Michael J. Mahon
Oct 4, 2017, 5:33:41 PM10/4/17
to
Clean your plugs carefully and insert and remove them a couple dozen times,
including some twisting while inserted. This will remove most of the
oxidation from the jack and should eliminate the noise
geoff body
Oct 4, 2017, 6:21:54 PM10/4/17
to
James what type of audio plugs are plugging into the IIe end are they stereo or mono plugs?
Regards
Geoff B
Regards
Geoff B
James Davis
Oct 5, 2017, 2:56:40 PM10/5/17
to
Ok, I got rid of the noise, by checking connections (plugging in and out several times {But, not from MJM's advise, since I just read it now.} and adding toroids {as we used for cassette tape players back in the AII+ days} and mono-to-stereo adapter plugs on the Apple IIe end of the stereo audio cables I'm using. I'm also using stereo Y-adapter plugs on the host end for both the headphone and microphone jacks so I can listen in on both (or either, one at a time) I/O signals. [Being that the cables are (probably) shielded coaxial cables (but, who knows, they may not be), I don't really think the toriods are necessary or effective, but they don't hurt the transfer from the host to the AIIe, so they (probably) don't hurt the other transfer from the AIIe to the host, either.]
On the host end, I am getting a nice ping tone at the microphone input and (when the microphone input is not muted on the speaker control panel, only) at the headphone output. With the volume on the microphone control panel set to 100% + 30dB boost, I get a 30%~40% volume pulses on the meter bar there. With the volume of the speaker set to 100%, I get a 50%~100% volume pulses on the speaker meter bar. With the volume of the speaker set to 50%, I get a 10% volume flicker (bottom bar only) on the speaker meter bar. So, I know I am getting good pings, but ADT Pro is not hearing them.
My computer (host) is a 2010 "Lenovo H405" desktop with a "Realtek" sound system built into it (on the motherboard, I suppose). -- [David, did you say somewhere that ADT does not work with Realtek sound systems? I'm thinking I might have read it and forgot about it (CRS)!]
Also: Does ADT Pro output to the speakers what it hears, or does it just show, "Heard audio signal #n" on the server panel? Being able to hear what ADT hears would be a good feature to add if it doesn't already have it.
And: Does the trace selection on the file menu affect any of this? Does it turn the ping detection on/off? If not, what is it for?
Yours truly,
James Davis
David Schmidt
Oct 5, 2017, 4:18:44 PM10/5/17
to
On 10/5/2017 2:56 PM, James Davis wrote:
> On the host end, I am getting a nice ping tone at the microphone input and (when the microphone input is not muted on the speaker control panel, only) at the headphone output. With the volume on the microphone control panel set to 100% + 30dB boost, I get a 30%~40% volume pulses on the meter bar there. With the volume of the speaker set to 100%, I get a 50%~100% volume pulses on the speaker meter bar. With the volume of the speaker set to 50%, I get a 10% volume flicker (bottom bar only) on the speaker meter bar. So, I know I am getting good pings, but ADT Pro is not hearing them.
Seems like we're not quite there getting the sound all the way into the
> On the host end, I am getting a nice ping tone at the microphone input and (when the microphone input is not muted on the speaker control panel, only) at the headphone output. With the volume on the microphone control panel set to 100% + 30dB boost, I get a 30%~40% volume pulses on the meter bar there. With the volume of the speaker set to 100%, I get a 50%~100% volume pulses on the speaker meter bar. With the volume of the speaker set to 50%, I get a 10% volume flicker (bottom bar only) on the speaker meter bar. So, I know I am getting good pings, but ADT Pro is not hearing them.
server, then.
> My computer (host) is a 2010 "Lenovo H405" desktop with a "Realtek" sound system built into it (on the motherboard, I suppose). -- [David, did you say somewhere that ADT does not work with Realtek sound systems? I'm thinking I might have read it and forgot about it (CRS)!]
doesn't ring a bell with me as being particularly problematic.
> Also: Does ADT Pro output to the speakers what it hears, or does it just show, "Heard audio signal #n" on the server panel? Being able to hear what ADT hears would be a good feature to add if it doesn't already have it.
Windows audio-out, which _you_ can redirect where you please. ADTPro
doesn't control that.
> And: Does the trace selection on the file menu affect any of this? Does it turn the ping detection on/off? If not, what is it for?
"connect," it will blurt out a bunch of details about the audio devices
it sees and uses to the log. The sequence of events would be this:
1. Start ADTPro server
2. Tick Start Trace
3. Engage the Audio button
4. Do some stuff with the client, the settings, whatever
5. Hit the Disconnect button
6. Un-tick Start Trace
7. Look at the file ADTProTrace.txt, which will be in the disks
directory by default. Anything having to do with "audio mixer" details
will be of interest.
Polymorph
Oct 5, 2017, 5:26:59 PM10/5/17
to
On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 5:56:40 AM UTC+11, James Davis wrote:
> My computer (host) is a 2010 "Lenovo H405" desktop with a "Realtek" sound system built into it (on the motherboard, I suppose). -- [David, did you say somewhere that ADT does not work with Realtek sound systems? I'm thinking I might have read it and forgot about it (CRS)!]
Hi James,
> My computer (host) is a 2010 "Lenovo H405" desktop with a "Realtek" sound system built into it (on the motherboard, I suppose). -- [David, did you say somewhere that ADT does not work with Realtek sound systems? I'm thinking I might have read it and forgot about it (CRS)!]
One quick thing to check - Realtek devices are usually installed with a "Realtek HD Audio Manager" (in Windows the task bar will have an icon of what appears to be a crab) that includes a bunch of filters that modify the sound. If you haven't done so already, open the Realtek HD Audio Manager and make sure that none of these filters are turned on as this will almost certainly interfere with audio comms between client/server.
Cheers,
Mike
James Davis
Oct 7, 2017, 7:47:45 PM10/7/17
to
James Davis
Oct 7, 2017, 7:54:09 PM10/7/17
to
On Thursday, October 5, 2017 at 1:18:44 PM UTC-7, schmidtd wrote:
> ADTPro doesn't output to speakers. It sends audio output to the default
> Windows audio-out, which _you_ can redirect where you please. ADTPro
> doesn't control that.
OK, I get that, but does it echo its input to its output at all?
> ADTPro doesn't output to speakers. It sends audio output to the default
> Windows audio-out, which _you_ can redirect where you please. ADTPro
> doesn't control that.
> The trace is where we should go next. When you push the audio button to
> "connect," it will blurt out a bunch of details about the audio devices
> it sees and uses to the log. The sequence of events would be this:
> 1. Start ADTPro server
> 2. Tick Start Trace
> 3. Engage the Audio button
> 4. Do some stuff with the client, the settings, whatever
> 5. Hit the Disconnect button
> 6. Un-tick Start Trace
> 7. Look at the file ADTProTrace.txt, which will be in the disks
> directory by default. Anything having to do with "audio mixer" details
> will be of interest.
10/6/17, 11:26:27 PM CommsThread.run() entry; _shouldRun=true
10/6/17, 11:26:27 PM CommsThread.commandLoop() starting.
10/6/17, 11:26:27 PM Gui.startComms() exit; returning true.
10/6/17, 11:26:27 PM CommsThread.commandLoop() Waiting for command from Apple.
10/6/17, 11:26:27 PM CaptureThread.run() entry with hardware mixer index 0
10/6/17, 11:26:27 PM Gui.actionPerformed() exit.
10/6/17, 11:26:27 PM CaptureThread.run() using audio mixer ADTPro Default Audio Capture.
10/6/17, 11:29:05 PM Gui.actionPerformed() entry, responding to Disconnect; previous button is Audio
What does it mean?
David Schmidt
Oct 9, 2017, 9:13:37 AM10/9/17
to
On 10/7/2017 7:54 PM, James Davis wrote:
> On Thursday, October 5, 2017 at 1:18:44 PM UTC-7, schmidtd wrote:
>> ADTPro doesn't output to speakers. It sends audio output to the default
>> Windows audio-out, which _you_ can redirect where you please. ADTPro
>> doesn't control that.
>
> OK, I get that, but does it echo its input to its output at all?
No, that would confuse the Apple at the other end.
> On Thursday, October 5, 2017 at 1:18:44 PM UTC-7, schmidtd wrote:
>> ADTPro doesn't output to speakers. It sends audio output to the default
>> Windows audio-out, which _you_ can redirect where you please. ADTPro
>> doesn't control that.
>
> OK, I get that, but does it echo its input to its output at all?
>> The trace is where we should go next. When you push the audio button to
>> "connect," it will blurt out a bunch of details about the audio devices
>> it sees and uses to the log. The sequence of events would be this:
>> 1. Start ADTPro server
>> 2. Tick Start Trace
>> 3. Engage the Audio button
>> 4. Do some stuff with the client, the settings, whatever
>> 5. Hit the Disconnect button
>> 6. Un-tick Start Trace
>> 7. Look at the file ADTProTrace.txt, which will be in the disks
>> directory by default. Anything having to do with "audio mixer" details
>> will be of interest.
>
> Here is the section of ADTProTrace.txt that contains it: hardware mixer index 0
>
> 10/6/17, 11:26:27 PM CommsThread.run() entry; _shouldRun=true
> 10/6/17, 11:26:27 PM CommsThread.commandLoop() starting.
> 10/6/17, 11:26:27 PM Gui.startComms() exit; returning true.
> 10/6/17, 11:26:27 PM CommsThread.commandLoop() Waiting for command from Apple.
> 10/6/17, 11:26:27 PM CaptureThread.run() entry with hardware mixer index 0
> 10/6/17, 11:26:27 PM Gui.actionPerformed() exit.
> 10/6/17, 11:26:27 PM CaptureThread.run() using audio mixer ADTPro Default Audio Capture.
> 10/6/17, 11:29:05 PM Gui.actionPerformed() entry, responding to Disconnect; previous button is Audio
>
> What does it mean?
the outputs, "Default Audio Capture" of the inputs). So nothing out of
the ordinary there.
James Davis
Oct 9, 2017, 12:18:53 PM10/9/17
to
On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 6:13:37 AM UTC-7, schmidtd wrote:
> It's using the first, or default, input and output devices ("index 0" of
> the outputs, "Default Audio Capture" of the inputs). So nothing out of
> the ordinary there.
OK, so what can I do to make ADT hear the "Mic. Input"?
> It's using the first, or default, input and output devices ("index 0" of
> the outputs, "Default Audio Capture" of the inputs). So nothing out of
> the ordinary there.
As I said, the highest volume level I can get on the meter bar is about 1/3 of the way up the scale. Do I need to get an amplifier or something to boost it even higher? Or, is it too high already? I've tried high and low and everything in between and ADT Pro still does not hear it.
David Schmidt
Oct 9, 2017, 12:57:52 PM10/9/17
to
http://adtpro.com/connectionsaudio.html#Boosting
If you've done all that and more and you're still not boosted enough, I
don't have any further suggestions to help you solve this, sorry to say.
If/when you do work it out, I'll add your solution to the mix.
█████ ██ █
Oct 9, 2017, 4:39:52 PM10/9/17
to
James Davis, why don't you try with R19 shorted (R6 on the IIe) ?
--
Jorge.
--
Jorge.
James Davis
Oct 9, 2017, 7:54:51 PM10/9/17
to
James Davis
Oct 9, 2017, 8:12:22 PM10/9/17
to
As I said before, a 100.84 ohms resistor in parallel with R6 (12 Kohms) will put the cassette output right in the middle between ground (0 VDC) and 5.0 VDC. IIRC, MJM recommended not just shorting it out, so I will try a 100 ohm ±5% 1/4 watt resistor, first. If that does not work, I'll use a 10~100 ohm potentiometer/rheostat, next. If that does not work, I may just short it out. I don't want to fry my Apple!
James Davis
Michael J. Mahon
Oct 10, 2017, 1:11:34 AM10/10/17
to
This is a lengthy thread, and I'd like to "review the bidding." ;-)
On the //e end, both plugs should be mono plugs, while on the PC end, both
plugs should be stereo.
I understand that you have Y connectors for eavesdropping, but the plugs
into the //e and the PC are critical.
Is this your setup?
Michael J. Mahon
Oct 10, 2017, 1:11:36 AM10/10/17
to
microphone in on the PC is causing the problem...
James Davis
Oct 10, 2017, 2:11:18 AM10/10/17
to
On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 10:11:34 PM UTC-7, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
> James,
>
> This is a lengthy thread, and I'd like to "review the bidding." ;-)
>
> On the //e end, both plugs should be mono plugs, while on the PC end, both
> plugs should be stereo.
>
> I understand that you have Y connectors for eavesdropping, but the plugs
> into the //e and the PC are critical.
>
> Is this your setup?
Yes, it is. I have mono(jack)-to-stereo(receptacle) adapters on the IIe end and "Sabrent" 10 foot stereo cables.
> James,
>
> This is a lengthy thread, and I'd like to "review the bidding." ;-)
>
> On the //e end, both plugs should be mono plugs, while on the PC end, both
> plugs should be stereo.
>
> I understand that you have Y connectors for eavesdropping, but the plugs
> into the //e and the PC are critical.
>
> Is this your setup?
James Davis
Oct 10, 2017, 2:22:21 AM10/10/17
to
On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 10:11:36 PM UTC-7, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
> And I also suspect that your connection from cassette out on the //e to
> microphone in on the PC is causing the problem...
How so? Do you think I just need to sand them with a fine sandpaper, an inkpen eraser, or a tiny spiral wire brush? I was thinking that, after 25+ years of non-use, they are probably really oxidized internally.
> And I also suspect that your connection from cassette out on the //e to
> microphone in on the PC is causing the problem...
Also, I like the idea of a tiny pot in parallel with resistor R6. What do you think?
James Davis
James Davis
Oct 10, 2017, 3:45:13 AM10/10/17
to
On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 10:11:36 PM UTC-7, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
> And I also suspect that your connection from cassette out on the //e to
> microphone in on the PC is causing the problem...
Just measured the resistance of the "Sabrent" cables: 0.6~0.8 ohms per each conductor. That's 1.2~1.6 ohms per round trip for Direct Current. Add to that any losses at the jacks and I AM losing signal strength. I guess I'll have to return these "Attenuating" cables to Fry's Electronics and see if they have a better (0.0-ohms) brand like "Monster-Cable" (!), or make my own with 16-AWG zip-cord and 3.5 mm mono-jacks.
> microphone in on the PC is causing the problem...
Jorge
Oct 10, 2017, 4:45:20 AM10/10/17
to
On Tuesday, October 10, 2017 at 9:45:13 AM UTC+2, James Davis wrote:
>
> Just measured the resistance of the "Sabrent" cables: 0.6~0.8 ohms per each conductor. That's 1.2~1.6 ohms per round trip for Direct Current. Add to that any losses at the jacks and I AM losing signal strength. I guess I'll have to return these "Attenuating" cables to Fry's Electronics and see if they have a better (0.0-ohms) brand like "Monster-Cable" (!), or make my own with 16-AWG zip-cord and 3.5 mm mono-jacks.
James Davis, the cable may well be 1Ω but R6 is also in series and it's 12000 Ω...
>
> Just measured the resistance of the "Sabrent" cables: 0.6~0.8 ohms per each conductor. That's 1.2~1.6 ohms per round trip for Direct Current. Add to that any losses at the jacks and I AM losing signal strength. I guess I'll have to return these "Attenuating" cables to Fry's Electronics and see if they have a better (0.0-ohms) brand like "Monster-Cable" (!), or make my own with 16-AWG zip-cord and 3.5 mm mono-jacks.
Do you realize that it's solely because of R6 that the signal out of the cassette port is 1/121 what it could be?
Find a 220 or 330Ω R and put it in parallel with R6 and then it will work, I'd bet you something.
--
Jorge.
Michael J. Mahon
Oct 10, 2017, 1:28:43 PM10/10/17
to
James Davis <JPD.Ent...@outlook.com> wrote:
> On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 10:11:36 PM UTC-7, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
>> And I also suspect that your connection from cassette out on the //e to
>> microphone in on the PC is causing the problem...
>
> How so? Do you think I just need to sand them with a fine sandpaper, an
> inkpen eraser, or a tiny spiral wire brush? I was thinking that, after
> 25+ years of non-use, they are probably really oxidized internally.
A little polishing with an ink eraser (these are usually nickel plated, not
> On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 10:11:36 PM UTC-7, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
>> And I also suspect that your connection from cassette out on the //e to
>> microphone in on the PC is causing the problem...
>
> How so? Do you think I just need to sand them with a fine sandpaper, an
> inkpen eraser, or a tiny spiral wire brush? I was thinking that, after
> 25+ years of non-use, they are probably really oxidized internally.
gold, for which a pencil eraser is best) never hurts. But I also am
concerned about the signal being shorted to ground by one jack or the
other. That's why I asked for a recap of the cabling and connectors.
> Also, I like the idea of a tiny pot in parallel with resistor R6. What do you think?
Put another way, I believe that the connection is the cause of your signal
level problem, and brute-forcing it shouldn't be necessary.
Michael J. Mahon
Oct 10, 2017, 1:28:43 PM10/10/17
to
microphone input which is *at least* hundreds of ohms input resistance,
and, since it doubles as a line input, 10k is even more likely. So you can
see that a couple of ohms of cable resistance produces a voltage divider
where 99.9% of the signal appears at the input.
Clear conclusion: "monster cables" are, and have always been, a complete
sham!
Michael J. Mahon
Oct 10, 2017, 1:28:44 PM10/10/17
to
way around, right?
And the PC input is a stereo input, not a mono microphone input?
I ask because mono microphones often have mono plugs, and a dedicated
microphone input on a PC may be a mono jack, or a stereo jack in which the
"ring" contact is grounded to the sleeve contact. This would result in one
of the "stereo" lines being shorted to ground, which, in the mono-to-stereo
adapter, is driven by the mono input. The net result is that the mono
output of the //e cassette output would be shorted to ground through 10
feet of Sabrent cable--enough to allow a small signal to reach the PC
input, but much less than the //e is designed to provide.
My last three laptops have had dedicated mono microphone inputs, so this
seems to be quite common.
Michael J. Mahon
Oct 10, 2017, 1:28:44 PM10/10/17
to
The cassette output is not reaching the PC, right?
The 24k input impedance of the cassette input isn't at issue--but, of
course, it also is high enough that a few ohms of cable resistance is
irrelevant.
James Davis
Oct 11, 2017, 1:31:41 AM10/11/17
to
Hi David,
Private replies to you [David Schmidt (schm...@my-deja.com)] are not getting through to your mail server. I wrote to you on October 1st. and Google could not get the message to you. I sent it again using my email client and it was again returned. Because of this, I am letting you know publicly, that it is impossible to get through to you at the (possibly fake) address above.
James Davis
Private replies to you [David Schmidt (schm...@my-deja.com)] are not getting through to your mail server. I wrote to you on October 1st. and Google could not get the message to you. I sent it again using my email client and it was again returned. Because of this, I am letting you know publicly, that it is impossible to get through to you at the (possibly fake) address above.
James Davis
James Davis
Oct 11, 2017, 2:45:59 AM10/11/17
to
Hi Jorge & Michael,
My use of the "Monster Cable" brand name WAS a Joke!
The problem is communication from the IIe to the PC, not the other way around. Bootstrapping from the PC to the Apple worked at 50% volume (but not at 75%!) with the Sabrent stereo cable alone (no mono adapter). ADT-Pro-Server is not hearing the Apple Cassette Output. The PC hears it fine. I can even record the pings with Sound Recorder. I have tried it every which way I could--with and without: toroid, mono adapter, eavesdropping Y-adapter, boosting (0%/10%/20%/30%), volume levels (0% to 100%), balancing (Left/Center/Right), muting/disabling everything not needed, etc., etc.
I don't know whether my Lenovo (desktop) PC Microphone input jack is of a mono or stereo form physically. The microphone that came with my older IBM PC (which IS NOT the PC I am using for this) has a stereo jack and it works fine speaking into my Lenovo PC (which IS the PC I am using for this). [I know more about the internals of my Apple II's than I do about my PC's!] If I understand you, Michael, you are saying that I should not use the mono adapters; but, they have had no effect on the volume levels I can achieve; it's identical with and without them (about 40% maximum).
I will try cleaning the Apple II Cassette I/O jacks first. Then, if that does not work, I will try Jorge's method. It might be quite a while though before I get it done, so don't worry if you don't hear from me on this subject for a while.
Sincerely yours,
James Davis
My use of the "Monster Cable" brand name WAS a Joke!
The problem is communication from the IIe to the PC, not the other way around. Bootstrapping from the PC to the Apple worked at 50% volume (but not at 75%!) with the Sabrent stereo cable alone (no mono adapter). ADT-Pro-Server is not hearing the Apple Cassette Output. The PC hears it fine. I can even record the pings with Sound Recorder. I have tried it every which way I could--with and without: toroid, mono adapter, eavesdropping Y-adapter, boosting (0%/10%/20%/30%), volume levels (0% to 100%), balancing (Left/Center/Right), muting/disabling everything not needed, etc., etc.
I don't know whether my Lenovo (desktop) PC Microphone input jack is of a mono or stereo form physically. The microphone that came with my older IBM PC (which IS NOT the PC I am using for this) has a stereo jack and it works fine speaking into my Lenovo PC (which IS the PC I am using for this). [I know more about the internals of my Apple II's than I do about my PC's!] If I understand you, Michael, you are saying that I should not use the mono adapters; but, they have had no effect on the volume levels I can achieve; it's identical with and without them (about 40% maximum).
I will try cleaning the Apple II Cassette I/O jacks first. Then, if that does not work, I will try Jorge's method. It might be quite a while though before I get it done, so don't worry if you don't hear from me on this subject for a while.
Sincerely yours,
James Davis
Steven Hirsch
Oct 11, 2017, 8:05:02 AM10/11/17
to
On 10/10/2017 01:28 PM, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
> Those cable resistances are fine. Remember, you're dealing with a
> microphone input which is *at least* hundreds of ohms input resistance,
> and, since it doubles as a line input, 10k is even more likely. So you can
> see that a couple of ohms of cable resistance produces a voltage divider
> where 99.9% of the signal appears at the input.
>
> Clear conclusion: "monster cables" are, and have always been, a complete
> sham!
Hear, hear! It was interesting to watch the snake-oil reappear in the digital
> Those cable resistances are fine. Remember, you're dealing with a
> microphone input which is *at least* hundreds of ohms input resistance,
> and, since it doubles as a line input, 10k is even more likely. So you can
> see that a couple of ohms of cable resistance produces a voltage divider
> where 99.9% of the signal appears at the input.
>
> Clear conclusion: "monster cables" are, and have always been, a complete
> sham!
domain with $95 HDMI cables. I buy HDMI cables for $4.50 and the picture
looks just as nice.
Back in the days of audio, I always used and recommended 12/2 SJ electrical
cable for speaker wiring. Low resistive losses and much cheaper than Monster
cable.
David Schmidt
Oct 11, 2017, 10:10:27 AM10/11/17
to
On 10/11/2017 1:31 AM, James Davis wrote:
> Because of this, I am letting you know publicly, that it is impossible to get through to you at the (possibly fake) address above.
That might be by design. ;-) Some other avenues you might explore:
> Because of this, I am letting you know publicly, that it is impossible to get through to you at the (possibly fake) address above.
https://github.com/ADTPro/adtpro/issues
https://sourceforge.net/u/david__schmidt/profile/send_message
Message david__schmidt on any of the following fora:
http://atariage.com/forums/index.php?app=members&module=messaging
https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?app=members&module=messaging
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/private.php
"Apple II Enthusiasts" or "Apple /// Enthusiasts" groups on Facebook
...whatever suits your fancy. But solving problems in public is a great
way for everyone to learn. Unless you are trying to send money - that
might be better done in private. :-)
Michael J. Mahon
Oct 11, 2017, 12:25:58 PM10/11/17
to
What you describe sounds like what I thought except for one thing: that
the sound recorder hears the Apple fine. You don't describe the actual
received levels, though.
If the signal received by the PC can be adjusted to 50% as indicated by
sound recorder, the level should be adequate for ADTPro. If the recorded
sound is noise-free, then software must be interfering with ADTPro Server
getting the audio.
I think cleaning the cassette output jack makes sense, to eliminate noise
as an issue.
At this point, trying it with another PC would be interesting.
James Davis
Oct 11, 2017, 9:46:16 PM10/11/17
to
On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 11:11:18 PM UTC-7, James Davis wrote:
> . . . I have mono(jack)-to-stereo(receptacle) adapters on the IIe end and "Sabrent" 10 foot stereo cables.
Michael,
My statement above is wrong! I was thinking that a jack is a plug, when it is really a receptacle. The statement should be as follows:
I have mono(plug)-to-stereo(jack/receptacle) adapters on the IIe end and "Sabrent" 10 foot stereo cables.
But, these adapters do not short the ring to ground, they short the ring to the tip. plugging stereo cables into them prevents shorting the ring to ground, as plugging stereo cables into mono receptacles would do. So if the microphone input on my PC is a mono jack/receptacle and the Apple II cassette out is too, there should be no problem just using stereo cables; but, if not, then what?
Let's see:
A2-Jack Plug<--Stereo Cable-->Plug Stereo PC-Jack
GND ------- G ------------------ G ------------ GND
GND ------- R ------------------ R ------------ RING
TIP ------- T ------------------ T ------------ TIP (Signal)
No Problem!
With Adapter @ Apple end:
'---+-'
A2-Jack V Plug<--Stereo Cable-->Plug Stereo PC-Jack
GND ------- G ------------------ G ------------ GND
GND +--- R ------------------ R ------------ RING (Signal)
TIP ---+--- T ------------------ T ------------ TIP (Signal)
No Problem!
With Adapter @ Apple end:
'---+-'
A2-Jack V Plug<--Stereo Cable-->Plug Mono PC-Jack
GND ------- G ------------------ G ------------ GND
GND +--- R ------------------ R ------------ GND
TIP ---+--- T ------------------ T ------------ TIP (Signal)
BAD!
But, this is not happening, because I am getting a signal. If it were shorting out, I would not get a signal. So, the PC-Jack must be a stereo-jack, just using the tip and ground for microphone input.
James Davis
> . . . I have mono(jack)-to-stereo(receptacle) adapters on the IIe end and "Sabrent" 10 foot stereo cables.
Michael,
My statement above is wrong! I was thinking that a jack is a plug, when it is really a receptacle. The statement should be as follows:
I have mono(plug)-to-stereo(jack/receptacle) adapters on the IIe end and "Sabrent" 10 foot stereo cables.
But, these adapters do not short the ring to ground, they short the ring to the tip. plugging stereo cables into them prevents shorting the ring to ground, as plugging stereo cables into mono receptacles would do. So if the microphone input on my PC is a mono jack/receptacle and the Apple II cassette out is too, there should be no problem just using stereo cables; but, if not, then what?
Let's see:
A2-Jack Plug<--Stereo Cable-->Plug Stereo PC-Jack
GND ------- G ------------------ G ------------ GND
GND ------- R ------------------ R ------------ RING
TIP ------- T ------------------ T ------------ TIP (Signal)
No Problem!
With Adapter @ Apple end:
'---+-'
A2-Jack V Plug<--Stereo Cable-->Plug Stereo PC-Jack
GND ------- G ------------------ G ------------ GND
GND +--- R ------------------ R ------------ RING (Signal)
TIP ---+--- T ------------------ T ------------ TIP (Signal)
No Problem!
With Adapter @ Apple end:
'---+-'
A2-Jack V Plug<--Stereo Cable-->Plug Mono PC-Jack
GND ------- G ------------------ G ------------ GND
GND +--- R ------------------ R ------------ GND
TIP ---+--- T ------------------ T ------------ TIP (Signal)
BAD!
But, this is not happening, because I am getting a signal. If it were shorting out, I would not get a signal. So, the PC-Jack must be a stereo-jack, just using the tip and ground for microphone input.
James Davis
James Davis
Oct 11, 2017, 9:58:20 PM10/11/17
to
On Wednesday, October 11, 2017 at 9:25:58 AM UTC-7, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
Michael,
The levels I receive are the same as they always have been, a maximum of about 1/3 on the Microphone control panel Levels Meter.
Sound Recorder has no meters. It just records to a sound file.
I have cleaned all contacts, and nothing has changed.
If I can't figure out what else could be causing the problem, I will have to try Jorge's method.
James Davis
The levels I receive are the same as they always have been, a maximum of about 1/3 on the Microphone control panel Levels Meter.
Sound Recorder has no meters. It just records to a sound file.
I have cleaned all contacts, and nothing has changed.
If I can't figure out what else could be causing the problem, I will have to try Jorge's method.
James Davis
Michael J. Mahon
Oct 12, 2017, 12:23:06 AM10/12/17
to
which is a couple of ohms, and the driving impedance of the cassette output
is 100 ohms, so a few percent of the signal gets through, but not enough to
work with ADTPro.
Try a stereo-to-mono adapter on the PC end to see if that solves the
problem.
Jorge
Oct 12, 2017, 3:56:05 AM10/12/17
to
On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 3:58:20 AM UTC+2, James Davis wrote:
>
> Sound Recorder has no meters. It just records to a sound file.
To see the waveform with the oscilloscope in my demo page do this:
>
> Sound Recorder has no meters. It just records to a sound file.
1.- Goto https://apple2.duckdns.org/turbodemo/ (better with google Chrome)
2.- Click on "LISTEN" (second to last button)
3.- Click on the (small) icon that will appear in the far right of the url bar, a panel will popup, choose there the microphone audio input. If you're using firefox the popup will appear right in front of you, there's no need to click first nowhere.
4.- On the Apple II type CALL -151 to go to the monitor.
5.- In the monitor type 0.BFFFW
Swap cables and plugs and watch the signal live on the scope. The blue (faint) trace behind is analog, the frontmost yellow trace is digital.
A problem you may have is that the signal starts strong but after a few seconds dims to almost nothing. If so the problem is this:
The Macs have a button "reduce ambient noise" in the control panel settings of the microphone input that should better be set to off because these signals look like noise to the noise reduction algorithms. IDK if the PCs have somethig similar, perhaps yes, if they do turn it off. In theory my program disables that, but sadly it does not always work, some browsers ignore the command.
You can also plug a stereo jack to jack cable on the PC between the line output and the MIC input and click on "]LOAD" on the page. That would feed a healthy, good, strong line level signal into the MIC input. But the Apple II cassette out signal is MIC level, not line level.
--
Jorge.
James Davis
Oct 13, 2017, 1:51:50 AM10/13/17
to
On Wednesday, October 11, 2017 at 6:58:20 PM UTC-7, James Davis wrote:
> Sound Recorder has no meters. It just records to a sound file.
Hi Michael,
> Sound Recorder has no meters. It just records to a sound file.
Actually, Sound Recorder does have a meter. I just never noticed it.
The volume level on the Sound Recorder meter is only about 1/10th max.
I could email you a copy of the PINGing sound file if you want to hear it.
James Davis
James Davis
Oct 13, 2017, 1:59:25 AM10/13/17
to
On Wednesday, October 11, 2017 at 9:23:06 PM UTC-7, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
> Try a stereo-to-mono adapter on the PC end to see if that solves the
> problem.
Michael,
> Try a stereo-to-mono adapter on the PC end to see if that solves the
> problem.
I've tried it every which way and it makes no difference.
I'm going to put a 101 ohm resistor in parallel with R6 when I have the time and space to break into my Apple IIe, sometime it the next year, hopefully.
James Davis
James Davis
Oct 13, 2017, 2:04:07 AM10/13/17
to
I don't like Google Chrome, nor JAVA, nor HTML scripts, so your website is useless to me. Write it in strict HTML4 and it will work on MsIE3+.
James Davis
Jorge
Oct 13, 2017, 4:51:43 AM10/13/17
to
On Friday, October 13, 2017 at 8:04:07 AM UTC+2, James Davis wrote:
>
> I don't like Google Chrome, nor JAVA, nor HTML scripts, so your website is useless to me. Write it in strict HTML4 and it will work on MsIE3+.
okay
>
> I don't like Google Chrome, nor JAVA, nor HTML scripts, so your website is useless to me. Write it in strict HTML4 and it will work on MsIE3+.
Michael J. Mahon
Oct 13, 2017, 7:11:02 PM10/13/17
to
tried a stereo-to-mono converter on both ends of the cable?
Michael J. Mahon
Oct 13, 2017, 7:15:19 PM10/13/17
to
cassette output level is abnormal and should not be necessary.
If I were you, I'd get (or make) two mono audio cables to connect, as God
and Woz intended. ;-)
geoff body
Oct 13, 2017, 10:34:14 PM10/13/17
to
James could you post a picture of the adapter and cable ends you are using
James Davis
Oct 14, 2017, 4:08:35 AM10/14/17
to
On Friday, October 13, 2017 at 4:15:19 PM UTC-7, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
OK Michael, I'll try making my own cables first.
Then, if I ever get around to opening up my Apple IIe, I will look for cobs and their webs and blow out the (years of) dust.
I should take it all apart and put it back together to clean all contacts to peripheral cards, too.
Then, if I ever get around to opening up my Apple IIe, I will look for cobs and their webs and blow out the (years of) dust.
I should take it all apart and put it back together to clean all contacts to peripheral cards, too.
James Davis
Oct 14, 2017, 4:14:31 AM10/14/17
to
On Friday, October 13, 2017 at 7:34:14 PM UTC-7, geoff body wrote:
> James could you post a picture of the adapter and cable ends you are using
Sorry Geoff, I do not do photography anymore, I don't have a digital camera, and I don't use wireless devices, like iPhones with cameras.
> James could you post a picture of the adapter and cable ends you are using
James Davis
Oct 14, 2017, 9:14:15 PM10/14/17
to
David Schmidtd,
Thought you might want to include this chart on your ADT Audio webpage:
APPLE II to/from IBM PC Disk Transfer (ADT) M/S Cabling Scenarios:
[M/S = MICROPHONE/SPEAKER (JACKS)]
=====================================================================
APPLE II (MONO JACK) <<———— STEREO CABLE ————>> PC M/S (STEREO JACKS)
=====================================================================
GND —+—<<———————————— GND ———————————————— GND ————————————>>——— GND
GND —+—<<———————————— RING ———(RIGHT)———— RING ————————————>>——— RING
TIP ———<<———————————— TIP ————(LEFT)—————— TIP ————————————>>——— TIP
=====================================================================
GND —+—<<——+—————<<—— GND ———————————————— GND ————————————>>——— GND
GND —+—<<——+ +——<<—— RING —————(R)—————— RING ————————————>>——— RING
TIP ———<<—————+——<<—— TIP ——————(L)——————— TIP ————————————>>——— TIP
=====================================================================
GND —+—<<———————————— GND ———————————————— GND ——>>—————+——>>——— GND
GND —+—<<———(R)—————— RING ——[SHORTED]——— RING ——>>——+ +——>>——— RING
TIP ———<<———(L)—————— TIP ———————————————— TIP ——>>——+—————>>——— TIP
=====================================================================
GND —+—<<——+—————<<—— GND ———————————————— GND ——>>—————+——>>——— GND
GND —+—<<——+ +——<<—— RING —————(R)—————— RING ——>>——+ +——>>——— RING
TIP ———<<—————+——<<—— TIP ——————(L)——————— TIP ——>>——+—————>>——— TIP
=====================================================================
MONO—TO—STEREO = STEREO—TO—MONO
ADAPTERS = ADAPTERS
=====================================================================
=====================================================================
APPLE II (MONO JACK) <<———— STEREO CABLE ——————>> PC M/S (MONO JACKS)
=====================================================================
GND —+—<<———————————— GND ———————————————— GND ————————————>>—+— GND
GND —+—<<———————————— RING ———(RIGHT)———— RING ————————————>>—+— GND
TIP ———<<———————————— TIP ————(LEFT)—————— TIP ————————————>>——— TIP
=====================================================================
GND —+—<<——+—————<<—— GND ———————————————— GND ————————————>>—+— GND
GND —+—<<——+ +——<<—— RING ——[SHORTED]——— RING ——————(R)———>>—+— GND
TIP ———<<—————+——<<—— TIP ———————————————— TIP ——————(L)———>>——— TIP
=====================================================================
GND —+—<<———————————— GND ———————————————— GND ——>>—————+——>>—+— GND
GND —+—<<———(R)—————— RING ——[SHORTED]——— RING ——>>——+ +——>>—+— GND
TIP ———<<———(L)—————— TIP ———————————————— TIP ——>>——+—————>>——— TIP
=====================================================================
GND —+—<<——+—————<<—— GND ———————————————— GND ——>>—————+——>>—+— GND
GND —+—<<——+ +——<<—— RING —————(R)—————— RING ——>>——+ +——>>—+— GND
TIP ———<<—————+——<<—— TIP ——————(L)——————— TIP ——>>——+—————>>——— TIP
=====================================================================
MONO—TO—STEREO = STEREO—TO—MONO
ADAPTERS = ADAPTERS
=====================================================================
=====================================================================
APPLE II (MONO JACK) <<————— MONO CABLE —————>> PC M/S (STEREO JACKS)
=====================================================================
GND —+—<<——+————————— GND ——+—————————+——— GND —————————+——>>——— GND
GND —+—<<——+————————— GND ——+ +——— GND —————————+——>>——— RING
TIP ———<<———————————— TIP ———————————————— TIP ————————————>>——— TIP
=====================================================================
GND —+—<<——+—————<<—— GND ——+—————————+——— GND —————————+——>>——— GND
GND —+—<<——+ +——<<—— GND ——+[SHORTED]+——— GND —————————+——>>——— RING
TIP ———<<—————+——<<—— TIP ———————————————— TIP ————————————>>——— TIP
=====================================================================
GND —+—<<——+————————— GND ——+—————————+——— GND ——>>—————+——>>——— GND
GND —+—<<——+————————— GND ——+[SHORTED]+——— GND ——>>——+ +——>>——— RING
TIP ———<<———————————— TIP ———————————————— TIP ——>>——+—————>>——— TIP
=====================================================================
GND —+—<<——+—————<<—— GND ——+—————————+——— GND ——>>—————+——>>——— GND
GND —+—<<——+ +——<<—— GND ——+[SHORTED]+——— GND ——>>——+ +——>>——— RING
TIP ———<<—————+——<<—— TIP ———————————————— TIP ——>>——+—————>>——— TIP
=====================================================================
MONO—TO—STEREO = STEREO—TO—MONO
ADAPTERS = ADAPTERS
=====================================================================
=====================================================================
APPLE II (MONO JACK) <<————— MONO CABLE ———————>> PC M/S (MONO JACKS)
=====================================================================
GND —+—<<——+————————— GND ——+—————————+——— GND —————————+——>>—+— GND
GND —+—<<——+————————— GND ——+ +——— GND —————————+——>>—+— GND
TIP ———<<———————————— TIP ———————————————— TIP ————————————>>——— TIP
=====================================================================
GND —+—<<——+—————<<—— GND ——+—————————+——— GND —————————+——>>—+— GND
GND —+—<<——+ +——<<—— GND ——+[SHORTED]+——— GND —————————+——>>—+— GND
TIP ———<<—————+——<<—— TIP ———————————————— TIP ————————————>>——— TIP
=====================================================================
GND —+—<<——+————————— GND ——+—————————+——— GND ——>>—————+——>>—+— GND
GND —+—<<——+————————— GND ——+[SHORTED]+——— GND ——>>——+ +——>>—+— GND
TIP ———<<———————————— TIP ———————————————— TIP ——>>——+—————>>——— TIP
=====================================================================
GND —+—<<——+—————<<—— GND ——+—————————+——— GND ——>>—————+——>>—+— GND
GND —+—<<——+ +——<<—— GND ——+[SHORTED]+——— GND ——>>——+ +——>>—+— GND
TIP ———<<—————+——<<—— TIP ———————————————— TIP ——>>——+—————>>——— TIP
=====================================================================
MONO—TO—STEREO = STEREO—TO—MONO
ADAPTERS = ADAPTERS
=====================================================================
James Davis
James Davis
Oct 14, 2017, 9:16:01 PM10/14/17
to
P.S. It needs to be viewed in a Mono-Spaced Font like Courier New.
Anthony Ortiz
Oct 14, 2017, 9:20:51 PM10/14/17
to
On Saturday, October 14, 2017 at 9:16:01 PM UTC-4, James Davis wrote:
> P.S. It needs to be viewed in a Mono-Spaced Font like Courier New.
Sorry, we don't do Mono-Spaced Fonts anymore, like Courier New. :P
> P.S. It needs to be viewed in a Mono-Spaced Font like Courier New.
James Davis
Oct 14, 2017, 9:30:51 PM10/14/17
to
Anthony Ortiz
Oct 14, 2017, 10:05:40 PM10/14/17
to
James Davis
Oct 14, 2017, 10:22:50 PM10/14/17
to
Anthony Ortiz
Oct 14, 2017, 10:26:20 PM10/14/17
to
James Davis
Oct 14, 2017, 10:32:57 PM10/14/17
to
Anthony Ortiz
Oct 14, 2017, 10:58:58 PM10/14/17
to
Anthony Lawther
Oct 15, 2017, 8:11:17 AM10/15/17
to
David Schmidt
Oct 15, 2017, 12:05:02 PM10/15/17
to
On 10/14/2017 9:14 PM, James Davis wrote:
> Thought you might want to include this chart on your ADT Audio webpage:
I might, but I don't understand what it's trying to convey. Can you
> Thought you might want to include this chart on your ADT Audio webpage:
explain how to interpret the symbols? Or is one scenario preferable
over the other? Or...?
Anthony Ortiz
Oct 15, 2017, 3:35:13 PM10/15/17
to
On Sunday, October 15, 2017 at 8:11:17 AM UTC-4, Anthony Lawther wrote:
> > On Saturday, October 14, 2017 at 9:16:01 PM UTC-4, James Davis wrote:
> >> P.S. It needs to be viewed in a Mono-Spaced Font like Courier New.
> >
> > Sorry, we don't do Mono-Spaced Fonts anymore, like Courier New. :P
> >
>
> Who's "We", paleface?
Them be fightin' werdz!
> > On Saturday, October 14, 2017 at 9:16:01 PM UTC-4, James Davis wrote:
> >> P.S. It needs to be viewed in a Mono-Spaced Font like Courier New.
> >
> > Sorry, we don't do Mono-Spaced Fonts anymore, like Courier New. :P
> >
>
> Who's "We", paleface?
James Davis
Oct 15, 2017, 3:39:37 PM10/15/17
to
Write to me personally from an email address that I can return email to and I will send you my "Audio ADT Cabling Scenarios.rtf" & "Audio Cabling Scenarios Legend.rtf" files.
Or, copy these texts and make your own files:
-------------------------------
Audio Cabling Scenarios Legend:
-------------------------------
It is four 'Logical Truth Tables' (Kind of!) of four wiring diagrams each for the Audio cable connections possible between an Apple II and an IBM PC.
Using the first group for an example [View in a mono-type font like Courier New with no word-wrap/margins]:
Legend for . . .
=====================================================================
APPLE II to/from IBM PC Disk Transfer (ADT) [M/S] Cabling Scenarios: = Document Title
[M/S = MICROPHONE/SPEAKER (JACKS)] banner.
===================================================================== Type of PC Jacks
APPLE II (MONO JACK) <<---- STEREO CABLE -------->> PC (STEREO JACKS) = and Cabling.
=====================================================================
GND -+-<<------------ GND ---------------- GND ------------>>--- GND \ This is one
GND -+-<<------------ RING ---(RIGHT)---- RING ------------>>--- RING +- cable connection
TIP ---<<------------ TIP ----(LEFT)------ TIP ------------>>--- TIP / with 3 internal
===================================================================== wires:
GND -+-<<--+-----<<-- GND ---------------- GND ------------>>--- GND = Ground wire;
GND -+-<<--+ +--<<-- RING -----(R)------ RING ------------>>--- RING = Stereo Right wire;
TIP ---<<-----+--<<-- TIP ------(L)------- TIP ------------>>--- TIP = Stereo Left wire.
=====================================================================
GND -+-<<------------ GND ---------------- GND -->>-----+-->>--- GND \ This shows that
GND -+-<<---(R)------ RING --[SHORTED]--- RING -->>--+ +-->>--- RING +- the signal gets
TIP ---<<---(L)------ TIP ---------------- TIP -->>--+----->>--- TIP / shorted to ground.
=====================================================================
GND -+-<<--+-----<<-- GND ---------------- GND -->>-----+-->>--- GND \ This shows the
GND -+-<<--+ +--<<-- RING -----(R)------ RING -->>--+ +-->>--- RING +- adapters between
TIP ---<<-----+--<<-- TIP ------(L)------- TIP -->>--+----->>--- TIP / cables and PC's.
=====================================================================
^ MONO-TO-STEREO = STEREO-TO-MONO ^
| ADAPTERS = ADAPTERS |
=|=================================================================|=
| ^-- These adapters are equal to each other --^ |
| (they are just mirrored drawings of the same kind of device). |
| |
+-- These are the internal wires/connectors inside/on the PC's ---+
-+- represents one wire connected internally to another wire above/below it.
-<<- and ->>- represent the jacks and plugs on the computers, cables, and adapter ends.
GND occupies the space (contact point) where the RING would be on Monophonic Jacks and Cables:
===================================================================== Type of PC Jacks
APPLE II (MONO JACK) <<----- MONO CABLE ----------->> PC (MONO JACKS) = and Cabling.
=====================================================================
GND -+-<<--+--------- GND --+---------+--- GND ---------+-->>-+- GND \ This is one
GND -+-<<--+--------- GND --+ +--- GND ---------+-->>-+- GND +- cable connection
TIP ---<<------------ TIP ---------------- TIP ------------>>--- TIP / with 2 internal
===================================================================== wires: monophonic.
----------------------------
Audio ADT Cabling Scenarios:
----------------------------
APPLE II to/from IBM PC Disk Transfer (ADT) [M/S] Cabling Scenarios:
[M/S = MICROPHONE/SPEAKER (JACKS)]
=====================================================================
=====================================================================
GND -+-<<------------ GND ---------------- GND ------------>>--- GND
GND -+-<<------------ RING ---(RIGHT)---- RING ------------>>--- RING
TIP ---<<------------ TIP ----(LEFT)------ TIP ------------>>--- TIP
=====================================================================
GND -+-<<--+-----<<-- GND ---------------- GND ------------>>--- GND
GND -+-<<--+ +--<<-- RING -----(R)------ RING ------------>>--- RING
TIP ---<<-----+--<<-- TIP ------(L)------- TIP ------------>>--- TIP
=====================================================================
GND -+-<<------------ GND ---------------- GND -->>-----+-->>--- GND
GND -+-<<---(R)------ RING --[SHORTED]--- RING -->>--+ +-->>--- RING
TIP ---<<---(L)------ TIP ---------------- TIP -->>--+----->>--- TIP
=====================================================================
GND -+-<<--+-----<<-- GND ---------------- GND -->>-----+-->>--- GND
GND -+-<<--+ +--<<-- RING -----(R)------ RING -->>--+ +-->>--- RING
TIP ---<<-----+--<<-- TIP ------(L)------- TIP -->>--+----->>--- TIP
=====================================================================
MONO-TO-STEREO = STEREO-TO-MONO
ADAPTERS = ADAPTERS
=====================================================================
=====================================================================
APPLE II (MONO JACK) <<---- STEREO CABLE ---------->> PC (MONO JACKS)
=====================================================================
=====================================================================
=====================================================================
GND -+-<<------------ GND ---------------- GND ------------>>-+- GND
GND -+-<<------------ RING ---(RIGHT)---- RING ------------>>-+- GND
TIP ---<<------------ TIP ----(LEFT)------ TIP ------------>>--- TIP
=====================================================================
GND -+-<<--+-----<<-- GND ---------------- GND ------------>>-+- GND
GND -+-<<--+ +--<<-- RING --[SHORTED]--- RING ------(R)--->>-+- GND
TIP ---<<-----+--<<-- TIP ---------------- TIP ------(L)--->>--- TIP
=====================================================================
GND -+-<<------------ GND ---------------- GND -->>-----+-->>-+- GND
GND -+-<<---(R)------ RING --[SHORTED]--- RING -->>--+ +-->>-+- GND
TIP ---<<---(L)------ TIP ---------------- TIP -->>--+----->>--- TIP
=====================================================================
GND -+-<<--+-----<<-- GND ---------------- GND -->>-----+-->>-+- GND
GND -+-<<--+ +--<<-- RING -----(R)------ RING -->>--+ +-->>-+- GND
TIP ---<<-----+--<<-- TIP ------(L)------- TIP -->>--+----->>--- TIP
=====================================================================
MONO-TO-STEREO = STEREO-TO-MONO
ADAPTERS = ADAPTERS
=====================================================================
=====================================================================
APPLE II (MONO JACK) <<----- MONO CABLE --------->> PC (STEREO JACKS)
=====================================================================
=====================================================================
=====================================================================
GND -+-<<--+--------- GND --+---------+--- GND ---------+-->>--- GND
GND -+-<<--+--------- GND --+ +--- GND ---------+-->>--- RING
TIP ---<<------------ TIP ---------------- TIP ------------>>--- TIP
=====================================================================
GND -+-<<--+-----<<-- GND --+---------+--- GND ---------+-->>--- GND
GND -+-<<--+ +--<<-- GND --+[SHORTED]+--- GND ---------+-->>--- RING
TIP ---<<-----+--<<-- TIP ---------------- TIP ------------>>--- TIP
=====================================================================
GND -+-<<--+--------- GND --+---------+--- GND -->>-----+-->>--- GND
GND -+-<<--+--------- GND --+[SHORTED]+--- GND -->>--+ +-->>--- RING
TIP ---<<------------ TIP ---------------- TIP -->>--+----->>--- TIP
=====================================================================
GND -+-<<--+-----<<-- GND --+---------+--- GND -->>-----+-->>--- GND
GND -+-<<--+ +--<<-- GND --+[SHORTED]+--- GND -->>--+ +-->>--- RING
TIP ---<<-----+--<<-- TIP ---------------- TIP -->>--+----->>--- TIP
=====================================================================
MONO-TO-STEREO = STEREO-TO-MONO
ADAPTERS = ADAPTERS
=====================================================================
=====================================================================
APPLE II (MONO JACK) <<----- MONO CABLE ----------->> PC (MONO JACKS)
=====================================================================
=====================================================================
=====================================================================
GND -+-<<--+--------- GND --+---------+--- GND ---------+-->>-+- GND
GND -+-<<--+--------- GND --+ +--- GND ---------+-->>-+- GND
TIP ---<<------------ TIP ---------------- TIP ------------>>--- TIP
=====================================================================
GND -+-<<--+-----<<-- GND --+---------+--- GND ---------+-->>-+- GND
GND -+-<<--+ +--<<-- GND --+[SHORTED]+--- GND ---------+-->>-+- GND
TIP ---<<-----+--<<-- TIP ---------------- TIP ------------>>--- TIP
=====================================================================
GND -+-<<--+--------- GND --+---------+--- GND -->>-----+-->>-+- GND
GND -+-<<--+--------- GND --+[SHORTED]+--- GND -->>--+ +-->>-+- GND
TIP ---<<------------ TIP ---------------- TIP -->>--+----->>--- TIP
=====================================================================
GND -+-<<--+-----<<-- GND --+---------+--- GND -->>-----+-->>-+- GND
GND -+-<<--+ +--<<-- GND --+[SHORTED]+--- GND -->>--+ +-->>-+- GND
TIP ---<<-----+--<<-- TIP ---------------- TIP -->>--+----->>--- TIP
=====================================================================
MONO-TO-STEREO = STEREO-TO-MONO
James Davis
Oct 17, 2017, 9:17:06 PM10/17/17
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On Sunday, October 15, 2017 at 9:05:02 AM UTC-7, schmidtd wrote:
Do you understand my drawings yet?
Please let me know--one way or the other.
James Davis
David Schmidt
Oct 18, 2017, 9:17:42 AM10/18/17
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On 10/17/2017 9:17 PM, James Davis wrote:
> On Sunday, October 15, 2017 at 9:05:02 AM UTC-7, schmidtd wrote:
>> On 10/14/2017 9:14 PM, James Davis wrote:
>>> Thought you might want to include this chart on your ADT Audio webpage:
>>
>> I might, but I don't understand what it's trying to convey. Can you
>> explain how to interpret the symbols? Or is one scenario preferable
>> over the other? Or...?
>
> On Sunday, October 15, 2017 at 9:05:02 AM UTC-7, schmidtd wrote:
>> On 10/14/2017 9:14 PM, James Davis wrote:
>>> Thought you might want to include this chart on your ADT Audio webpage:
>>
>> I might, but I don't understand what it's trying to convey. Can you
>> explain how to interpret the symbols? Or is one scenario preferable
>> over the other? Or...?
>
> Do you understand my drawings yet?
>
> Please let me know--one way or the other.
There's a lot of detail, and it's interesting academically. But I try
>
> Please let me know--one way or the other.
hard to net things out for folks on the website - which is better for
getting folks going. It used to be all about showing off how clever I
was, but now I just try to cut to the chase. If you were writing a
doctoral thesis, this should be in it. If you're trying to get some
Tom, Dick, or Jane going with Audio - not so much.
What _I_ want to know is: have you solved your problem? What audio
cable should I recommend?
James Davis
Oct 18, 2017, 9:43:19 PM10/18/17
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On Wednesday, October 18, 2017 at 6:17:42 AM UTC-7, schmidtd wrote:
> There's a lot of detail, and it's interesting academically. But I try
> hard to net things out for folks on the website - which is better for
> getting folks going. It used to be all about showing off how clever I
> was, but now I just try to cut to the chase. If you were writing a
> doctoral thesis, this should be in it. If you're trying to get some
> Tom, Dick, or Jane going with Audio - not so much.
OK, but you could make up some pictures (of real cables {illustrating my drawings}) to send to individuals AS NEEDED, to show them what they are (or might be) doing wrong.--At least for the combinations that are bad. Just an idea.
> There's a lot of detail, and it's interesting academically. But I try
> hard to net things out for folks on the website - which is better for
> getting folks going. It used to be all about showing off how clever I
> was, but now I just try to cut to the chase. If you were writing a
> doctoral thesis, this should be in it. If you're trying to get some
> Tom, Dick, or Jane going with Audio - not so much.
> What _I_ want to know is: have you solved your problem? What audio
> cable should I recommend?
I cannot recommend any commercial cables. All the ones I have (old and new), I tested, and they all have 0.5~1.5 ohm resistances. [Commercial manufacturers either: must use too small a wire, don't solder (and just twist) the wires to the connectors, or add-in resistors, before covering the plugs with insulation.] The best thing to recommend, is to "build your own, with 18-AWG or 16-AWG wires (depending on length) soldered to the connector plugs" (for zero resistance). [Larger AWG #'s mean it is smaller wire; So, use larger 16-AWG wire for longer runs.]
Michael J. Mahon
Oct 20, 2017, 2:39:51 AM10/20/17
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Resistance is not an issue since the cassette input and the PC input are
high impedance inputs compared to *any* metallic connection.
James Davis
Oct 20, 2017, 4:30:59 AM10/20/17
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On Thursday, October 19, 2017 at 11:39:51 PM UTC-7, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
Yes Michael, I hear you.
I think my problem is either that my Apple IIe needs a thorough cleaning, or the fact that all slots are full, or both. Like I said, I'll do it when I have the time and space to do it. [After my wife's kitchen remodel, I'll have to find your "trash bin" and get rid of the garbage surrounding my Apple IIe's, first!]
I think my problem is either that my Apple IIe needs a thorough cleaning, or the fact that all slots are full, or both. Like I said, I'll do it when I have the time and space to do it. [After my wife's kitchen remodel, I'll have to find your "trash bin" and get rid of the garbage surrounding my Apple IIe's, first!]
James Davis
Nov 3, 2017, 5:03:53 AM11/3/17
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On Wednesday, October 18, 2017 at 6:17:42 AM UTC-7, schmidtd wrote:
> What _I_ want to know is: have you solved your problem?
Schmidtd,
Does ADT Pro require 8-bit sound? Or, will it work with 16-bit sound?
The reason I ask is that my Windows PC and the RealTek sound hardware & driver uses 16-bits (minimum) [CD quality] or 24-bits maximum [DVD quality]. And, ADT Pro does not seem to hear it at all.
I wrote a simple Applesoft program: 10 Print "Hello World" then SAVEd it on my Apple II (cassette out) while recording it on my PC with Sound Recorder and saved it as a WMP sound file. This I converted it into a WAV file. Then, I imported it onto a disk image with CiderPress. It worked! But SAVE (to cassette out) does not work from Basic.System with ProDOS (booted), so I cannot use this method to load things into memory and save them to cassette out.
So, I still do not understand why ADT Pro 2.0.2 cannot hear the input, while Sound Recorder can. What is the difference?!
James Davis
David Schmidt
Nov 3, 2017, 9:49:25 AM11/3/17
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On 11/3/2017 5:03 AM, James Davis wrote:
> Does ADT Pro require 8-bit sound? Or, will it work with 16-bit sound?
It doesn't matter to ADTPro. It uses native Java interfaces to
> Does ADT Pro require 8-bit sound? Or, will it work with 16-bit sound?
communicate with whatever sound subsystem the OS has.
> The reason I ask is that my Windows PC and the RealTek sound hardware & driver uses 16-bits (minimum) [CD quality] or 24-bits maximum [DVD quality]. And, ADT Pro does not seem to hear it at all.
presented to Java, and it picks the wrong one - but it's never happened
in the history of audio support. So I'm at a loss how to explain it.
> I wrote a simple Applesoft program: 10 Print "Hello World" then SAVEd it on my Apple II (cassette out) while recording it on my PC with Sound Recorder and saved it as a WMP sound file. This I converted it into a WAV file. Then, I imported it onto a disk image with CiderPress. It worked! But SAVE (to cassette out) does not work from Basic.System with ProDOS (booted), so I cannot use this method to load things into memory and save them to cassette out.
tried feeding it back in to the apple from PC playback?
> So, I still do not understand why ADT Pro 2.0.2 cannot hear the input, while Sound Recorder can. What is the difference?!
recall - have you gone through the audio testing regimen and never got a
positive result?
http://adtpro.com/connectionsaudio.html#Testing
James Davis
Nov 3, 2017, 8:05:58 PM11/3/17
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On Friday, November 3, 2017 at 6:49:25 AM UTC-7, schmidtd wrote:
> ... have you gone through the audio testing regimen and never got a
> positive result?
Schmidtd,
Yes, been there, done that!--(See above in this google group <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.sys.apple2/_F3bq8UXUZg>)--We have been working on this for one month. Together! Remember?
James Davis
> ... have you gone through the audio testing regimen and never got a
> positive result?
Schmidtd,
Yes, been there, done that!--(See above in this google group <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.sys.apple2/_F3bq8UXUZg>)--We have been working on this for one month. Together! Remember?
James Davis
James Davis
Nov 5, 2017, 2:01:52 AM11/5/17
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On Friday, November 3, 2017 at 6:49:25 AM UTC-7, schmidtd wrote:
> We know your Apple is sending good audio out, that's for sure.
> Have you tried feeding it back in to the apple from PC playback?
Yes, I was able to download the same "Hello World" program to my Apple IIe from the playback of the WAV file on the PC.
> Have you tried feeding it back in to the apple from PC playback?
David Schmidt
Nov 6, 2017, 1:17:59 PM11/6/17
to
On 11/3/2017 8:05 PM, James Davis wrote:
> On Friday, November 3, 2017 at 6:49:25 AM UTC-7, schmidtd wrote:
>> ... have you gone through the audio testing regimen and never got a
>> positive result?
>
> On Friday, November 3, 2017 at 6:49:25 AM UTC-7, schmidtd wrote:
>> ... have you gone through the audio testing regimen and never got a
>> positive result?
>
> Yes, been there, done that!--(See above in this google group <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.sys.apple2/_F3bq8UXUZg>)--We have been working on this for one month. Together! Remember?
Your experience is orthogonal to everyone else's, so it's difficult for
me to keep up. I think the solution is going to rest with putting me on
a plane with some spare computers to figure out what's wrong with your gear.
Anthony Ortiz
Nov 6, 2017, 1:21:48 PM11/6/17
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