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Connecting an Apple IIGS to the Internet
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Clyde1992
Jul 30, 2013, 7:21:55 PM7/30/13
to
Hello, everyone,
In the near future, I will be purchasing the CFFA3000, finally giving my
Apple IIGS a mass-storage device. Once I receive it, I intend to
install Marinetti on my IIGS and use it to browse the web. However, I
am not quite sure how to physically connect my machine to the internet.
I do own a serial dial-up modem, but I have not had dial-up internet for
years. I also know that there are some Ethernet cards for the apple ii,
but they are rare and well out of my price range. My final solution
would be to connect my IIGS to my PC's serial port. There must be some
program that will allow me to emulate a dial-up modem, but I do not know
where I would find such a thing.
What would be the best way to connect my IIGS to the internet?
Thank you, in advance.
In the near future, I will be purchasing the CFFA3000, finally giving my
Apple IIGS a mass-storage device. Once I receive it, I intend to
install Marinetti on my IIGS and use it to browse the web. However, I
am not quite sure how to physically connect my machine to the internet.
I do own a serial dial-up modem, but I have not had dial-up internet for
years. I also know that there are some Ethernet cards for the apple ii,
but they are rare and well out of my price range. My final solution
would be to connect my IIGS to my PC's serial port. There must be some
program that will allow me to emulate a dial-up modem, but I do not know
where I would find such a thing.
What would be the best way to connect my IIGS to the internet?
Thank you, in advance.
Kirk Mitchell
Jul 30, 2013, 9:15:36 PM7/30/13
to
On Tuesday, July 30, 2013 5:21:55 PM UTC-6, Clyde1992 wrote:
> Hello, everyone,
>
> In the near future, I will be purchasing the CFFA3000, finally giving my
> Apple IIGS a mass-storage device. Once I receive it, I intend to
> install Marinetti on my IIGS and use it to browse the web. However, I
> am not quite sure how to physically connect my machine to the internet.
>
> I do own a serial dial-up modem, but I have not had dial-up internet for
> years. I also know that there are some Ethernet cards for the apple ii,
> but they are rare and well out of my price range. My final solution
> would be to connect my IIGS to my PC's serial port. There must be some
> program that will allow me to emulate a dial-up modem, but I do not know
> where I would find such a thing.
>
I'm not a great Window's guy, but on Linux, I used to use a program called "slirp" that allowed a SLIP connection over the serial port. Marinetti has a link layer that handled that.
> Hello, everyone,
>
> In the near future, I will be purchasing the CFFA3000, finally giving my
> Apple IIGS a mass-storage device. Once I receive it, I intend to
> install Marinetti on my IIGS and use it to browse the web. However, I
> am not quite sure how to physically connect my machine to the internet.
>
> I do own a serial dial-up modem, but I have not had dial-up internet for
> years. I also know that there are some Ethernet cards for the apple ii,
> but they are rare and well out of my price range. My final solution
> would be to connect my IIGS to my PC's serial port. There must be some
> program that will allow me to emulate a dial-up modem, but I do not know
> where I would find such a thing.
>
I moved on to IPNetRouter on an old Mac that served MacIP over LocalTalk and eventually a GatorBox that did the same without having to leave a computer on all the time. This allowed me to have 3 GS's in my collection on the Internet, as well as a couple of Mac LC's and an SE. Not having multiple personalities to take advantage of using multiple computers, I settled down to a LANceGS.
Anyway...
Kirk
Michael Black
Jul 30, 2013, 10:44:57 PM7/30/13
to
On Tue, 30 Jul 2013, Clyde1992 wrote:
> Hello, everyone,
>
> In the near future, I will be purchasing the CFFA3000, finally giving my
> Apple IIGS a mass-storage device. Once I receive it, I intend to install
> Marinetti on my IIGS and use it to browse the web. However, I am not quite
> sure how to physically connect my machine to the internet.
>
> I do own a serial dial-up modem, but I have not had dial-up internet for
> years. I also know that there are some Ethernet cards for the apple ii, but
> they are rare and well out of my price range. My final solution would be to
> connect my IIGS to my PC's serial port. There must be some program that will
> allow me to emulate a dial-up modem, but I do not know where I would find
> such a thing.
>
If you're running Linux, connect via serial to the computer, and then log
> Hello, everyone,
>
> In the near future, I will be purchasing the CFFA3000, finally giving my
> Apple IIGS a mass-storage device. Once I receive it, I intend to install
> Marinetti on my IIGS and use it to browse the web. However, I am not quite
> sure how to physically connect my machine to the internet.
>
> I do own a serial dial-up modem, but I have not had dial-up internet for
> years. I also know that there are some Ethernet cards for the apple ii, but
> they are rare and well out of my price range. My final solution would be to
> connect my IIGS to my PC's serial port. There must be some program that will
> allow me to emulate a dial-up modem, but I do not know where I would find
> such a thing.
>
in. Nothing needs to be added.
This is the same thing as dialing up an ISP via a modem with the IIGS,
running a terminal emulator on the IIGS and a newsreader and a text only
browser at the ISP's computer. Except the "ISP" is now your home
computer, and you connect the IIGS directly to it, leaving out the modems.
Michael
Eric Rucker
Aug 1, 2013, 12:13:36 PM8/1/13
to
Michael Black <et...@ncf.ca> wrote:
> If you're running Linux, connect via serial to the computer, and then log
> in. Nothing needs to be added.
>
> This is the same thing as dialing up an ISP via a modem with the IIGS,
> running a terminal emulator on the IIGS and a newsreader and a text only
> browser at the ISP's computer. Except the "ISP" is now your home
> computer, and you connect the IIGS directly to it, leaving out the modems.
>
> Michael
That's fine if you want to do all your TCP/IP stuff on another (Unix)
> If you're running Linux, connect via serial to the computer, and then log
> in. Nothing needs to be added.
>
> This is the same thing as dialing up an ISP via a modem with the IIGS,
> running a terminal emulator on the IIGS and a newsreader and a text only
> browser at the ISP's computer. Except the "ISP" is now your home
> computer, and you connect the IIGS directly to it, leaving out the modems.
>
> Michael
machine, and then transfer the files using ZModem or similar to the
IIGS. This is how people actually did things back in the day. If you
want to do this, I can definitely recommend Spectrum as the
communications package.
However, many people want to run TCP/IP software directly on the IIGS.
This requires a different approach. Three ways to do it:
1. Uthernet or LANceGS
2. MacIP over LocalTalk, with a LocalTalk to EtherTalk bridge
3. SLIP or PPP over RS-232
The third option is the cheapest and possibly the easiest. With slirp on
a Linux host, setup is relatively easy (could be easier, sure, but
relatively easy), and a SLIP connection at 38400 baud is possible.
--
Eric Rucker - http://bhtooefr.org - bhto...@bhtooefr.org
Clyde1992
Aug 2, 2013, 7:00:39 PM8/2/13
to
though emulating SLIP with my Raspberry Pi is my best option. Perhaps I
will also look into purchasing a LocalTalk to Ethernet bridge, like the
Gatorbox, or buying a cheap Mac for serving MacIP. It seems as though
LocalTalk to Ethernet bridges that serve MacIP are fairly uncommon, though.
Ivan X
Aug 2, 2013, 8:48:22 PM8/2/13
to
> Thank you, everyone, for your suggestions. At this point, it looks as
> though emulating SLIP with my Raspberry Pi is my best option. Perhaps I
> will also look into purchasing a LocalTalk to Ethernet bridge, like the
> Gatorbox, or buying a cheap Mac for serving MacIP. It seems as though
> LocalTalk to Ethernet bridges that serve MacIP are fairly uncommon, though.
I was able to get Slirp running on the Pi pretty painlessly and will put up a post about how to do it once I remember what I did. But it's really very slow. I'm experimenting with configuring pppd to see if it performs any faster, but have not been successful thus far.
> though emulating SLIP with my Raspberry Pi is my best option. Perhaps I
> will also look into purchasing a LocalTalk to Ethernet bridge, like the
> Gatorbox, or buying a cheap Mac for serving MacIP. It seems as though
> LocalTalk to Ethernet bridges that serve MacIP are fairly uncommon, though.
I've only tried Slirp at 38400 -- I think Eric or Kirk or someone said 57600 was unstable. But if that were usable too, I wonder if it would be possible to hack Marinetti to go to 115,200 as Hugh has done with ProTERM.
As for LocalTalk to Ethernet bridges that serve MacIP, the Gatorbox is hard to come by (I don't know about the Shiva FastPath). I just got a Gatorbox after having an eBay search up for the better part of a year. I wish I had the skeelz to add MacIP on to Netatalk, so I can just include it in A2SERVER. I know others have done it long ago, and some here have been trying to update/revive that capability, so hopefully someday.
dagz
Aug 3, 2013, 1:05:14 PM8/3/13
to
Quick question. What type of cable are people normally using for this? Apple II serial to USB?
Christopher G. Mason
Aug 3, 2013, 4:06:07 PM8/3/13
to
On 8/2/2013 8:48 PM, Ivan X wrote:
>I wish I had the skeelz to add MacIP on to Netatalk, so I can just include it in A2SERVER. I know others have done it long ago, and some here have been trying to update/revive that capability, so hopefully someday.
>
Found this, but it is for FreeBSD: <http://macipgw.sourceforge.net/>
>I wish I had the skeelz to add MacIP on to Netatalk, so I can just include it in A2SERVER. I know others have done it long ago, and some here have been trying to update/revive that capability, so hopefully someday.
>
Source to the original KIP can be found here:
<ftp://ftp.ultimate.com/FastPath/shiva-ftp/unsupported/>
Ivan X
Aug 3, 2013, 10:36:02 PM8/3/13
to
On Saturday, August 3, 2013 1:05:14 PM UTC-4, dagz wrote:
> Quick question. What type of cable are people normally using for this? Apple II serial to USB?
In most cases, it would be a USB-to-serial cable that ends in a male DE-9, connected to an Apple II null modem cable that ends in a female DE-9. (Super Serial Card users also need to have the jumper block pointing towards "Modem", or otherwise use a straight-through cable instead.) The ADTPro page documents it all pretty thoroughly, and provides links to purchase cables: http://adtpro.sourceforge.net/connectionsserial.html
> Quick question. What type of cable are people normally using for this? Apple II serial to USB?
As for the USB-to-serial cable, on the Raspberry Pi I've successfully used a couple which I have linked on the A2SERVER page, and alternatively a Raspberry Pi console cable which attaches to the expansion connector: http://appleii.ivanx.com/a2server/a2server_raspberrypi_login.html
Ivan X
Aug 3, 2013, 10:45:22 PM8/3/13
to
On Saturday, August 3, 2013 4:06:07 PM UTC-4, Christopher G. Mason wrote:
> On 8/2/2013 8:48 PM, Ivan X wrote:
>
> >I wish I had the skeelz to add MacIP on to Netatalk, so I can just include it in A2SERVER. I know others have done it long ago, and some here have been trying to update/revive that capability, so hopefully someday.
>
> Found this, but it is for FreeBSD: <http://macipgw.sourceforge.net/>
Yup, I am aware of that one -- it runs on an ancient version of FreeBSD, and didn't compile on a current one. I'm still interested in finding some way to get it up and running one of these days so I could see what it would take to rehab it, but I'm not a hardcore C jockey, and network protocols are not my forte, so it's not at the top of the list. Hopefully another smart member of the community can figure it out.
> On 8/2/2013 8:48 PM, Ivan X wrote:
>
> >I wish I had the skeelz to add MacIP on to Netatalk, so I can just include it in A2SERVER. I know others have done it long ago, and some here have been trying to update/revive that capability, so hopefully someday.
>
> Found this, but it is for FreeBSD: <http://macipgw.sourceforge.net/>
> Source to the original KIP can be found here:
>
> <ftp://ftp.ultimate.com/FastPath/shiva-ftp/unsupported/>
roughana
Aug 4, 2013, 5:44:55 AM8/4/13
to
On Saturday, August 3, 2013 10:48:22 AM UTC+10, Ivan X wrote:
> I've only tried Slirp at 38400 -- I think Eric or Kirk or someone said 57600 was unstable. But if that were usable too, I wonder if it would be possible to hack Marinetti to go to 115,200 as Hugh has done with ProTERM.
There is a lot going on inside the IIgs and Marinetti in particular to make higher speeds improbable to obtain. ProTERM and ADTPro have the advantage of not having to support GS/OS and the possible use of Appletalk so they can reliably slurp bits off the serial port a lot faster.
> I've only tried Slirp at 38400 -- I think Eric or Kirk or someone said 57600 was unstable. But if that were usable too, I wonder if it would be possible to hack Marinetti to go to 115,200 as Hugh has done with ProTERM.
The PPP scripted link layer will allow setting a port speed of 57600. So if you have a highly accelerated IIgs then you can try that.
Marinetti and Spectrum share the same underlying serial port driver, so you may like to try determining the highest speed that Spectrum reliably works at on your system.
Hacking Marinetti is not necessary. The source code is available for the link layer so supporting 115200 as a possibility is just a matter of coding it. It is just highly unlikely to work on a real machine. Anyone using an emulator is probably comfortable enough using the existing supported link layers. So I don't see any benefit in spending time on this myself. However, feel free to add a feature request and/or go at it yourself if you wish.
Regards,
Andrew
roughana
Aug 4, 2013, 6:01:20 AM8/4/13
to
On Wednesday, July 31, 2013 9:21:55 AM UTC+10, Clyde1992 wrote:
> My final solution
> would be to connect my IIGS to my PC's serial port. There must be some
> program that will allow me to emulate a dial-up modem, but I do not know
> where I would find such a thing.
It is possible to connect Marinetti with the PPP Link Layer to a serial port on a Windows (98, 2000 tested) box that is connected to the internet. It does require some software on the PC (e.g. Kerio WinRoute) to route the packets from the internet to the serial port. This is documented in Juiced.GS Vol 10, no 1:
> My final solution
> would be to connect my IIGS to my PC's serial port. There must be some
> program that will allow me to emulate a dial-up modem, but I do not know
> where I would find such a thing.
https://juiced.gs/index/v10/i1/
Regards,
Andrew
Kirk Mitchell
Aug 5, 2013, 12:01:59 AM8/5/13
to
Kirk
sporti...@gmail.com
Jul 31, 2018, 3:00:54 PM7/31/18
to
Hello,
some years later but interesting anyway.
I have the same idea to connect my apple IIgs with Marinetti PPP (Scripted) to my Macbook Pro.
But It seems not to be so easy yet.
I configured pppd with PAP. (Macbook)
Use null modem cable to USB (working fine with ADTpro)
but I can't get it run.
My ppp Server said...
rcvd [PAP AuthReq id=0x6b user="" password=<hidden>]
So I think, that Marinetti not send username and password anyway!
Have anyone further information how to configure the start script?
Or the preferences of Marinetti?
Thanks
Thorsten
some years later but interesting anyway.
I have the same idea to connect my apple IIgs with Marinetti PPP (Scripted) to my Macbook Pro.
But It seems not to be so easy yet.
I configured pppd with PAP. (Macbook)
Use null modem cable to USB (working fine with ADTpro)
but I can't get it run.
My ppp Server said...
rcvd [PAP AuthReq id=0x6b user="" password=<hidden>]
So I think, that Marinetti not send username and password anyway!
Have anyone further information how to configure the start script?
Or the preferences of Marinetti?
Thanks
Thorsten
Ewen
Aug 2, 2018, 2:58:44 AM8/2/18
to
Thorsten,
As the messages from the original thread are no longer on my Mac, what
is it exactly that you want to do?
If you just want access to your Mac from the IIgs, then the usual way is
to FTP into the Mac, which gives you full access to all the files on the
Mac.
That is easy to set up, and the method is fully outlined in the PDF
Manual for SAFE2 on my website:
http://speccie.uk/software/safe2/
Cheers - Ewen
is it exactly that you want to do?
If you just want access to your Mac from the IIgs, then the usual way is
to FTP into the Mac, which gives you full access to all the files on the
Mac.
That is easy to set up, and the method is fully outlined in the PDF
Manual for SAFE2 on my website:
http://speccie.uk/software/safe2/
Cheers - Ewen
sporti...@gmail.com
Aug 4, 2018, 4:58:09 PM8/4/18
to
Hello Ewen,
thank you for advice.
I do the installation of Marinetti and get it work without PAP. PPP (Script) PAP OFF CHAP OFF
Furthermore I install SAFE2 also.
I get FTP Transfer with my MAC. Send and receive Files successfully!
But it seems not be very stable.
I get only connection with maximal SPEED 19200.
MTU 1500.
FTP transfer speed approximate 700Bits/s.
And very often crash TCP connection and IIGS hangs or blue screen.
With ADTpro speed of COM port is configured with 115200 an transfer 800 kB Image in < one Minute.
With TCP over serial it takes 6 Minutes and more.
Can you give further hints to get it more stable and faster?
Is it better to configure a PPPDeamon on real Linux (e.g. Rasberry PI) and not under MAC OS 10.13.6?
Thanks Thorsten
thank you for advice.
I do the installation of Marinetti and get it work without PAP. PPP (Script) PAP OFF CHAP OFF
Furthermore I install SAFE2 also.
I get FTP Transfer with my MAC. Send and receive Files successfully!
But it seems not be very stable.
I get only connection with maximal SPEED 19200.
MTU 1500.
FTP transfer speed approximate 700Bits/s.
And very often crash TCP connection and IIGS hangs or blue screen.
With ADTpro speed of COM port is configured with 115200 an transfer 800 kB Image in < one Minute.
With TCP over serial it takes 6 Minutes and more.
Can you give further hints to get it more stable and faster?
Is it better to configure a PPPDeamon on real Linux (e.g. Rasberry PI) and not under MAC OS 10.13.6?
Thanks Thorsten
Ewen
Aug 5, 2018, 3:49:12 AM8/5/18
to
Thorsten,
You say you are using PPP. An Uthernet card, giving you an Ethernet
connection for Internet access, and thus a connection into your Mac,
would be a more reliable method of connection.
The only experience I have of connecting a IIgs to my Mac, has been with
an Uthernet card, which connects my IIgs to my LAN, either directly with
an Ethernet cable from the Uthernet card, or from a Netgear Ethernet to
WiFi adaptor directly into my WiFi network. That has proved to be very
reliable.
Marinetti has a packet size limit at the moment, which we are working
on, so the overall speed you will get will depend on how your IIgs is
connected to the Mac, an d how the server at the other end responds.
Cheers - Ewen
connection for Internet access, and thus a connection into your Mac,
would be a more reliable method of connection.
The only experience I have of connecting a IIgs to my Mac, has been with
an Uthernet card, which connects my IIgs to my LAN, either directly with
an Ethernet cable from the Uthernet card, or from a Netgear Ethernet to
WiFi adaptor directly into my WiFi network. That has proved to be very
reliable.
Marinetti has a packet size limit at the moment, which we are working
on, so the overall speed you will get will depend on how your IIgs is
connected to the Mac, an d how the server at the other end responds.
Cheers - Ewen
Thorsten Kott
Aug 6, 2018, 3:38:13 PM8/6/18
to
Hello Ewen,
OK that seems a better way if you own an Ethernet card.
I will waiting for the next batch.
But, you say Marinette has a packet size limit.
Do you now in detail what the size is? PPP use MTU1500 as standard!
Thanks Thorsten
OK that seems a better way if you own an Ethernet card.
I will waiting for the next batch.
But, you say Marinette has a packet size limit.
Do you now in detail what the size is? PPP use MTU1500 as standard!
Thanks Thorsten
Jeff Ramsey
Aug 6, 2018, 10:54:50 PM8/6/18
to
"Thorsten Kott" wrote:
> But, you say Marinette has a packet size limit.
> Do you now in detail what the size is? PPP use MTU1500 as standard!
Marinetti has a bug in the TCP stack that is not setting the MTU/MSS option. Ewen discovered this a while back. Andrew Roughan has resolved this issue in a recent test version and I tested and verified it for him. He is still working on some code before he releases that version and the fix for the MSS option. Once released, the bug will be fixed and Marinetti will have a proper packet size, that is configurable by the MTU setting in the config.
> But, you say Marinette has a packet size limit.
> Do you now in detail what the size is? PPP use MTU1500 as standard!
The current release limits the size to the minimum because without the option set, the other end of the connection defaults to the minimum automatically.
Hope this helps.
-Jeff
Ewen
Aug 7, 2018, 2:26:35 AM8/7/18
to
Thorsten,
The problem is that Marinetti is not yet fully supporting the discovery
handshake with a server, so although outgoing packets will be to the MTU
size, incoming packets will default to what the server thinks we can
handle, usually 512 bytes.
This problem is being worked on, so hopefully we shall see a solution
shortly.
Cheers - Ewen
handshake with a server, so although outgoing packets will be to the MTU
size, incoming packets will default to what the server thinks we can
handle, usually 512 bytes.
This problem is being worked on, so hopefully we shall see a solution
shortly.
Cheers - Ewen
roug...@gmail.com
Sep 1, 2018, 5:59:58 AM9/1/18
to
On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 6:58:09 AM UTC+10, Thorsten Kott wrote:
> I do the installation of Marinetti and get it work without PAP. PPP (Script) PAP OFF CHAP OFF
> I do the installation of Marinetti and get it work without PAP. PPP (Script) PAP OFF CHAP OFF
> But it seems not be very stable.
> I get only connection with maximal SPEED 19200.
> I get only connection with maximal SPEED 19200.
> And very often crash TCP connection and IIGS hangs or blue screen.
> With ADTpro speed of COM port is configured with 115200 an transfer 800 kB Image in < one Minute.
What version of the Marinetti Init are you using? (Use Finder to navigate to :System:System.Setup:TCPIP then Open-Apple-I and report the version e.g. 3.0bx)
> With ADTpro speed of COM port is configured with 115200 an transfer 800 kB Image in < one Minute.
Pushing the serial port too fast will result in lost characters and then the TCP connection will resend the packet. You may get faster throughput by dropping to a reliable speed. For serial on a real IIgs without an accelerator I would suggest 9600 bps and then go up if that works and if you have an accelerator.
ADTPro has exclusive use of the IIgs resources and there is a lot more cycles available to process the serial stream. Marinetti is designed to co-exist with other applications (including Appletalk networking) and has limitations because of this.
Regards,
Andrew
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