Questions about 3200 color pics & hard disks
David Hua
Okay these topics have been discussed before, but I've
never really gotten specific info from them. Can anyone please
answer the following two set of questions.
3200 pictures: Do these pictures really have 3,200 colors? How do you
get 3200 colors from a palette of 16? Isn't it true that
the GS can only handle 16 colors per row of pixels even
in 3200 mode?
hard disks: Are there any 4 or 5 meg hard disks for the GS? Can you
hook up a Mac or IBM-specific hard disk to the GS with the
right cables?
--
david hua /
dh...@jarthur.claremont.edu / every whisper of every waking hour
harvey mudd college / i'm choosing my confessions --- r.e.m.
Soenke Behrens
>hard disks: Are there any 4 or 5 meg hard disks for the GS? Can you
> hook up a Mac or IBM-specific hard disk to the GS with the
> right cables?
Well, if you can find such a thing ... but I gather it's much more expensive
than say a 40MB HD because it's sort of rare.
You can get 20MB HDs very cheap now that they are no longer manufactured but
still sit around at the dealers.
You can hook up Mac-HDs using a SCSI card. As for the IBM, you have a problem:
There are controllers (pretty fast ones, too), but they are done here in FRG.
There is one for ST506 HDs (non-DMA controller) and one for IDE HDs (AT-Bus
type, very common (and cheap :) at the moment). The latter features DMA and
is about as fast as a RF SCSI with ROM 3.0, faster than a RF SCSI with older
ROMs.
Bye
Soenke
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Steven T Chiang
>
> Okay these topics have been discussed before, but I've
>never really gotten specific info from them. Can anyone please
>answer the following two set of questions.
>
>3200 pictures: Do these pictures really have 3,200 colors? How do you
> get 3200 colors from a palette of 16? Isn't it true that
> the GS can only handle 16 colors per row of pixels even
> in 3200 mode?
These picture can have up to 3200 colors. You don't break the
16 colors per line, but you can have a new set of 16 colors for every
line. 200 lines * 16 colors = 3200 colors.
>hard disks: Are there any 4 or 5 meg hard disks for the GS? Can you
> hook up a Mac or IBM-specific hard disk to the GS with the
> right cables?
Old Apple Profiles were 5 megs or so. Nowadays, 105 megs goes
for around $350, so I wouldn't bother with a small HD. I'm looking to
get a 200+ meg HD.
If you get a SCSI card, which I would recommend (HS SCSI or RamFAST),
you can hook up Mac SCSI drives. As for IBM, some IBMs have SCSI
drives, but most of them use other standards. They can be used with
the right interface cards, but it's really not worthwhile, as they are
slower, and will probably just give you headaches in the future.
I have a RamFAST and a 105 meg drive, and it works great.
>david hua /
Steven Chiang Order - DreamGrafix: The ONLY 16/256/3200
st...@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu color paint program for the Apple IIGS.
America On_Line: DWS Steve
Genie: S.Chiang4 Apple IIGS Forever!
Eric Shepherd
3200 color pictures:
Yes, it's true that the IIGS can have only 16 palettes with 16 colors per
palette. Each scan line can be assigned to one of these palettes, so you
can easily do 256 colors onscreen at a time in this way. The 3200 color
mode is ALSO restricted to 16 colors per scan line. The 3200 color effect
is acheived by using 200 palettes. There are registers within the IIGS
which can be examined to learn where the electron gun is currently drawing
(VERTCNT [$C02E] and HORIZCNT [$C02F]). By using scan line interrupts,
which are generated when a given scan line is updated, you can rapidly
change palettes so that all 200 palettes are used -- one for each scan
line.
I've never used 3200 color mode, but this is basically how it works. Because
of the very high overhead from the palette changing, it is difficult or
impossible to use the 3200 color mode for anything but pictures; animation
and music is probably not possible.
hard disks:
Uh, no, I don't think there are any IIGS-compatible 4 or 5 meg. hard drives.
Why would you want one so small? The 4 or 5 meg. drives used to cost two
to three times what a 120 meg. drive costs today.
The standard way to connect hard drives to the Apple IIGS is via the SCSI
interface. Since the IIGS doesn't have a built-in SCSI port, it is
necessary to buy a SCSI interface card (such as the Apple II High-speed
SCSI Card or the RAMFast). You can use ANY SCSI drive on the Apple IIGS
if you have one of these cards -- these drives are standard on the Mac,
and are relatively popular on the IBM PC. More likely, though, PC drives
will be MFM, ESDI, or IDE. These drives are NOT generally compatible with
the Apple II and would require a specially-designed board to work in the
IIGS.
I hope this helps!
- Eric S.
--
*-Eric Shepherd-...@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu-----------AOL: Sheppy--------*
* FORTRAN IS THE ONLY LANGUAGE FOR REAL PROGRAMMERS!!! *
* .....NOT!!! *
*---ACM Member---------------------------Alliance International Member---*
Brian Tao
>
>There are controllers (pretty fast ones, too), but they are done here
>in FRG. There is one for ST506 HDs (non-DMA controller) and one for
>IDE HDs (AT-Bus type, very common (and cheap :) at the moment). The
>latter features DMA and is about as fast as a RF SCSI with ROM 3.0,
>faster than a RF SCSI with older ROMs.
Speaking of using fast IDE drives, I read a little while ago (I
think it was a transcript of a GEnie A2RT interview) that CV Tech was
planning a 2:1 and 4:1 RAID controller for the Apple II. Anyone know
what happened to that project? It sure would be nice to hook up a
bunch of hard drives in parallel. :)
--
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Dept. of Exobiology | :::::> generic!terranet!ta...@zoo.toronto.edu <:::::
University of Toronto | "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't."
gudat henrik
>[.....]
>is acheived by using 200 palettes. There are registers within the IIGS
>which can be examined to learn where the electron gun is currently drawing
>(VERTCNT [$C02E] and HORIZCNT [$C02F]). By using scan line interrupts,
>which are generated when a given scan line is updated, you can rapidly
>change palettes so that all 200 palettes are used -- one for each scan
>line.
>
Instead, you rather have to turn off interrupts and check the two
softswitches in a tight loop.
henrik
--
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P.O. Box 18 * InterNet (Mo-Fr): gu...@avalon.physik.unizh.ch *
4153 Reinach 2 * "Simple Solutions to Complex Problems." *
Switzerland * Any demo: send formatted disk and SASE *
Steven T Chiang
>
>I've never used 3200 color mode, but this is basically how it works. Because
>of the very high overhead from the palette changing, it is difficult or
>impossible to use the 3200 color mode for anything but pictures; animation
>and music is probably not possible.
Hmmm, music and animation is possible. Animation is possible
on as small scale.
I'll repost DreamGrafix Demo 3, which does animation,
soundsmith and 3200 color display, all at the same time.
[other stuff deleted]
>*-Eric Shepherd-...@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu-----------AOL: Sheppy--------*
Steven T Chiang
>In article <uerics.709498799@mcl> uer...@mcl.ucsb.edu (Eric Shepherd) writes:
>>[.....]
>>is acheived by using 200 palettes. There are registers within the IIGS
>>which can be examined to learn where the electron gun is currently drawing
>>(VERTCNT [$C02E] and HORIZCNT [$C02F]). By using scan line interrupts,
>>which are generated when a given scan line is updated, you can rapidly
>>change palettes so that all 200 palettes are used -- one for each scan
>>line.
>>
>Using interrupts won`t work - 100%. This method is much too slow.
>Instead, you rather have to turn off interrupts and check the two
>softswitches in a tight loop.
Like I responded to Eric's post, I'll repost DreamGrafix Demo
3. Interrupt viewers can work... Although, setting up a scan line
interrupt on each line is too much, but that's a different story. DG
Demo 3 uses an interrupt based viewer.
>Bright Software Switzerland / Henrik Gudat
Steven Chiang Order - DreamGrafix: The ONLY 16/256/3200
Joe Kohn
To: Steven Chiang
I just want to thank you for putting me in touch with Jason Andersen. After
a little arm twisting, he agreed to demo DreamGrafix at the next meeting of
the GravenStein Apple IIGS User Group.
Anyone who wants to, and is located in Northern California, is invited to
attend the DreamGrafix demo in Petaluma, California on Saturday, July 18th.
It'll happen at the Grant Street School, and if anyone needs directions,
just holler.
Joe Kohn
Marc Sira
> Speaking of using fast IDE drives, I read a little while ago (I
> think it was a transcript of a GEnie A2RT interview) that CV Tech was
> planning a 2:1 and 4:1 RAID controller for the Apple II. Anyone know
> what happened to that project? It sure would be nice to hook up a
> bunch of hard drives in parallel. :)
> --
I spoke to Drew about that, and he mentioned that they'd scrapped the
project...they didn't think they'd be able to cover their costs.
There was also a plan to incorporate a DiskDoubler type thing in hardware on
the RamFast...The RF is apparently more than fast enough to do this
completely transparently (ie. you'd about double your hard drive space
without noticing any slowdown). Apparently it would have cost around $16,000
for the R & D, though, so that one got scrapped too.
Marc Sira | "Zyblor is our leader..."
t...@micor.ocunix.on.ca | "Zyblor is all-knowing..."
'
Steven T Chiang
>
>I spoke to Drew about that, and he mentioned that they'd scrapped the
>project...they didn't think they'd be able to cover their costs.
>There was also a plan to incorporate a DiskDoubler type thing in hardware on
>the RamFast...The RF is apparently more than fast enough to do this
>completely transparently (ie. you'd about double your hard drive space
>without noticing any slowdown). Apparently it would have cost around $16,000
>for the R & D, though, so that one got scrapped too.
I find this attitude somewhat disturbing. If they aren't
willing to invest in new products, where's their new revenue going to
come from. I have a RamFASt, but I don't see myself getting another
one for my computer...
On AOL, Drew posted that people whined so much about
the $15 upgrade for the Rom 3.0s for the RF, that he couldn't see
people paying ~$100 for the disk doubler.
RAID has also been killed? That sucks...
>Marc Sira | "Zyblor is our leader..."
Steven Chiang Order - DreamGrafix: The ONLY 16/256/3200
tuu
In article <1992Jun27.0...@news.columbia.edu> st...@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Steven T Chiang) writes:
} On AOL, Drew posted that people whined so much about
}the $15 upgrade for the Rom 3.0s for the RF, that he couldn't see
}people paying ~$100 for the disk doubler.
Jeez, I think $100 would be completely worth it for a hardware-based
disk doubler..
--
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Grover Thomas
In a previous article, unk...@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (tuu) says:
>}the $15 upgrade for the Rom 3.0s for the RF, that he couldn't see
>}people paying ~$100 for the disk doubler.
>
> Jeez, I think $100 would be completely worth it for a hardware-based
>disk doubler..
I think I agree with CV Tech. on this one. With all the hoopla in the IBM
area about problems with disk doublers, I think many people would avoid
a similar unit for the Apple II.
Personally, I would sell my hard drive and apply the $100 to a larger
(perhaps used) hard drive before I got a "doubler".
--
__ __
(__) Grover Thomas InterNet: gro...@emunix.emich.edu (__)
(__) or bp...@Cleveland.Freenet.edu (__)
Marc Sira
>
> In a previous article, unk...@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (tuu) says:
>
> >}the $15 upgrade for the Rom 3.0s for the RF, that he couldn't see
> >}people paying ~$100 for the disk doubler.
> >
> > Jeez, I think $100 would be completely worth it for a hardware-based
> >disk doubler..
>
> I think I agree with CV Tech. on this one. With all the hoopla in the IBM
> area about problems with disk doublers, I think many people would avoid
> a similar unit for the Apple II.
>
> Personally, I would sell my hard drive and apply the $100 to a larger
> (perhaps used) hard drive before I got a "doubler".
A doubler incorporated into the RamFast would be entirely transparent,
though, while retaining all the benefits of the RF (no, no horror stories,
thanks...mine's worked without any trouble since day 1). You can spend $100
to go from 120 to 200 Megs, but can you spend that same amount to go from
200 to 400? or 400 to 800?
The main problem, it seems to me, is that it wouldn't involve a new product,
just an add-on to an existing one. And this particular century doesn't
support intelligent markets like that.
Marc Sira | "Zyblor is our leader..."
t...@micor.ocunix.on.ca | "Zyblor is all-knowing..."
'
Grover Thomas
In a previous article, t...@micor.ocunix.on.ca (Marc Sira) says:
>> I think I agree with CV Tech. on this one. With all the hoopla in the IBM
>> area about problems with disk doublers, I think many people would avoid
>> a similar unit for the Apple II.
>>
>> Personally, I would sell my hard drive and apply the $100 to a larger
>> (perhaps used) hard drive before I got a "doubler".
>
>A doubler incorporated into the RamFast would be entirely transparent,
>though, while retaining all the benefits of the RF (no, no horror stories,
>thanks...mine's worked without any trouble since day 1). You can spend $100
>to go from 120 to 200 Megs, but can you spend that same amount to go from
>200 to 400? or 400 to 800?
But see, Marc, you've just supplied the arguement AGAINST developing
such a costly product... Most users do not have 200 MB hard drives.
The people they would need to target would be the small users with
little 20MB drives who really really need that doubler space.
And the minute the thing overheats or needs another ROM upgrade
or something, you have absolutely no access to any of your files.
Most people (I think) would opt for simply buying a larger drive.
>The main problem, it seems to me, is that it wouldn't involve a new product,
>just an add-on to an existing one. And this particular century doesn't
>support intelligent markets like that.
If the RAMfast supplied an option for turning on & off the "doubler"
it might make a good enhancement. But then the thing would cost
much more than the Apple card, probably around $300-400. Again most
people would probably just stay with the cheaper un-doubled version.
Remember, Apple II people don't like to spend money, even if it makes
sense.
German Leparc
>
> Okay these topics have been discussed before, but I've
>never really gotten specific info from them. Can anyone please
>answer the following two set of questions.
>
>3200 pictures: Do these pictures really have 3,200 colors? How do you
> get 3200 colors from a palette of 16? Isn't it true that
> the GS can only handle 16 colors per row of pixels even
> in 3200 mode?
>
>hard disks: Are there any 4 or 5 meg hard disks for the GS? Can you
> hook up a Mac or IBM-specific hard disk to the GS with the
> right cables?
>
>--
>david hua /
> dh...@jarthur.claremont.edu / every whisper of every waking hour
> harvey mudd college / i'm choosing my confessions --- r.e.m.
Ok here's how it works... let me first start out with 256 color pics.
In 256 color pics, there are 16 different palettes you can choose from.
Each palette has its own 16 colors. You can assign certain parts of your
SHR screen to have palette #1, then another area with palette #2, and so
on... the MOST palettes you can have at one time is 16... thus 16 colors
times 16 palettes gives you 256 colors.. (16x16=256)...
Ok, now lets have a look at those peculiar 3200 pics. In a 3200 color
pic, each (horizontal) line of the 320x200 SHR screen can be assigned
its own palette of 16 colors. So, you have 200 lines and 16 colors for
each line... 200x16=3200.... there you have it.
Since displaying a 3200 color pic uses up 80% of the CPU, it is
VERY difficult to make any animations with 3200 color pics. But with
Dream Graphix, 3200 color pics are easy to edit/create. I have to thank
the programmers of Dream Graphix, it's a GREAT program. (Luckily I bought
a used copy for $25! whatta steal!).
Sometimes 3200 pics might not have exactly 3200 different colors, but
it is possible to have exactly that many colors on a //gs.
Hopefully, maybe someone can find out to make 640x200 screens with 16
colors :). I think it might be possible.. heck, maybe even have 32 or
64 colors in 640x200 mode...
--Mr.Cool--
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Andy McFadden
[...]
>>A doubler incorporated into the RamFast would be entirely transparent,
>>though, while retaining all the benefits of the RF (no, no horror stories,
>
>If the RAMfast supplied an option for turning on & off the "doubler"
>it might make a good enhancement. But then the thing would cost
>much more than the Apple card, probably around $300-400. Again most
>people would probably just stay with the cheaper un-doubled version.
Would somebody please explain to me how a block-level interface is going
to compress files?
You *must* intercept GS/OS calls. The RamFAST does NOT get a "please write
the file to the disk for me" message, it gets "please write block xxyy to
device zz". You can run around compressing individual 512 byte blocks, but
what does that get you?
>(__) Grover Thomas InterNet: gro...@emunix.emich.edu (__)
--
fad...@uts.amdahl.com (Andy McFadden)
[ Above opinions are mine, Amdahl has nothing to do with them, etc, etc. ]