TransWarpGS Clone Preorders open!

[Conrad]

Hi everyone,

The big day is finally here!! I just wanted to let you know that preordering is open now for the TWGS clone. The preorder price is $180 Canadian Dollars. This price includes a 14MHz card with 32k cache. You can specify a different speed at no cost, or you can request multiple oscillators to be included at a cost of $3.00 Canadian dollars per extra oscillator. This price does not include shipping, but shipping is not payable until the card is ready for delivery. Delivery right now is set for the end of February, but it could be 2-3 weeks sooner or later then that depending on the postal service. I will be taking preorders for the next two weeks, after which the preordering will be closed. The card will go on regular sale 1 week after preorder shipping starts and the regular sale price will be $200 Canadian. The card is quite popular, so preordering ensures you will get one of the first batch. Payments can be sent via paypal to conrad...@gmail.com or via MoneyGram for those who don't have PayPal. Either method is fine, neither is preferred. Please let me know if you are interested in preordering. Thank you very much!

[fx]

On Sunday, December 30, 2012 7:33:42 PM UTC-5, Conrad wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
>
>
> The big day is finally here!! I just wanted to let you know that preordering is open now for the TWGS clone. The preorder price is $180 Canadian Dollars. This price includes a 14MHz card with 32k cache. You can specify a different speed at no cost, or you can request multiple oscillators to be included at a cost of $3.00 Canadian dollars per extra oscillator. This price does not include shipping, but shipping is not payable until the card is ready for delivery. Delivery right now is set for the end of February, but it could be 2-3 weeks sooner or later then that depending on the postal service. I will be taking preorders for the next two weeks, after which the preordering will be closed. The card will go on regular sale 1 week after preorder shipping starts and the regular sale price will be $200 Canadian. The card is quite popular, so preordering ensures you will get one of the first batch. Payments can be sent via paypal to conrad...@gmail.com or via MoneyGram for those who don't have PayPal. Either method is fine, neither is preferred. Please let me know if you are interested in preordering. Thank you very much!

Hi Conrad, could you please put up some photos and/or schematics of the prototype? I would really like to see what I'm getting before I order it. Thanks!

[Conrad]

Hi FX,

I don't have any photos, as the entire process has been done by my contractor overseas. There is no "prototype" perse, as what has taken place is my contractor has delaminated a working TWGS card and copied the layers one at a time to make a perfect duplicate. The boards are produced, packed up, and waiting to be shipped from them as soon as I pay the second half of the cloning and production costs (I paid half at the beginning of the process). I have used them for other projects in the past, and they gave me a good deal on this by producing these boards in batch with another contract. This is how I am able to offer 6-layer boards for a relatively low cost with a short time to market. I didn't think of asking for them to take pictures of the process as no one requested it before and I thought it might slow down the process. If you don't feel comfortable preordering sight-unseen then that is fine and you are welcome to wait for the regular sale to open. Sorry for any inconvenience this might have created for you, I hope it isn't a problem.

Best regards,
Conrad

[fx]

Ah, OK. I had hoped that they would have sent you a preproduction version to test. I'll leave the preorders to the early adopters and pick one up once it's confirmed working. Thanks for your answer.

[Conrad]

Hi FX,

No problem! I will let you know when they are available for general sale. I look forward to your business in the future!

Best regards,
Conrad

[CC Rider]

Awesome job Conrad. Glad to hear it.

Clay

[IUnknown]

Conrad,

I am very interested in purchasing one of these, as (working) TWGS
cards are extremely rare and/or expensive these days.

That being said, I am a bit skeptical about the process. While a
number of the original components were bog standard (back in the day),
some of the IC's on the original TWGS boards were custom logic.

Delaminating PCB's and copying traces is one thing - copying custom
logic circuitry is something entirely different.

What process has your contractor used to guarantee that the custom
glue/logic IC's are perfectly duplicated? I can't imagine that any
contractor would be able to reverse engineer and duplicate these chips
and still reach your $180 price point.

Any info you can provide would be helpful. I know you mentioned that
you don't have a working prototype, but you are going to need to
provide clear high-rez photos of the clone if you expect folks to
spend $180

Sorry if I am sounding harsh, but if the TWGS were this easy (and
cheap) to clone, someone would have done it already.

[STYNX]

@IUnknown

> Delaminating PCB's and copying traces is one thing - copying custom
> logic circuitry is something entirely different.

Actually there are only the XC2064 and the GALs. The XC2064 is a FPGA
that has its bitstream in the ROM and the GAL-Files are available too.
No real custom chips there ;-) - The main problem is really the 6
layer board. Everything else is pretty much straightforward (at least
in theory...)

-Jonas

[Conrad]

I'm kind of a little upset that you didn't do a bit more research before making such thinly-veiled accusations of fraud... There is exactly 0 custom chips on the TransWarpGS. The entire thing is off the shelf 74xx series ICs with the exception of the SRAM and EPROM on the cache card and the GALs (Lattice brand reprogrammable Simple Programmable Logic Devices, GAL16V8 and GAL20V8 series) and FPGA (Xilinx XC2064 Field Programmable Gate Array, as a side note the first such device on the commercial market, in this case running at a minimum speed of 50MHz) as Jonas already mentioned. And as Jonas has also mentioned, the sources for both are available readily, the bitstream for the FPGA is in the TWGS ROM and the JEDEC (and ABEL) files for all the GALs are available all over the net. If you had bothered to read the other thread I made when I started this project this would all be known to you. Perhaps you are thinking of the ZipGSX, which does indeed have an ASIC on it and as such was written off by myself as unfeasable to clone at this time. If you had bothered to read the other thread you would also know that I am doing this for the good of the community and to build my reputation as a hardware producer in the classic computing community, so I take your attack on my product personally. You're welcome to wait for high resolution scans of my clone, but maybe in the meantime you could brush up on Apple 2 hardware before making anymore completely baseless accusations. No I don't have any idea if you know a thing about hardware or not but I'll just take a page from your book and assume the absolute worst since I don't know any better...

[chris....@gmail.com]

Hi Conrad,

I'm really excited about this project, but I think you may have misread IUnknown a bit and came down a bit hard. To snip a few pieces here, he said:

> I am very interested ...
> I am a bit skeptical (technically, then goes into the reasoning for skepticism) ...

> Any info you can provide would be helpful

> you are going to need to provide clear high-rez photos if you expect folks to spend $180

> Sorry if I am sounding harsh

This is pretty tame stuff.

Your response:

> I'm kind of a little upset that you didn't do a bit more research before making such thinly-veiled accusations of fraud ...

> I take your attack on my product personally ...
> ... completely baseless accusations ...
> ... I'll just take a page from your book and assume the absolute worst since I don't know any better ...

I didn't see any accusations of fraud, an attack on the product, or an assumption of the absolute worst. I saw a question as to whether your approach is technically feasible, and you answered that, so hopefully everything is hunky dory.

I do however think he makes a good point about making people feel more assured about what they'd be spending their money on. I think when people decide to spend money on vintage computer hardware (or really anything not sold through a major, reputable retailer), they think through these three factors:

- The good intentions of the party they're sending their money. Is this party an honest saint, well-intentioned but flaky, just outright shady, an outright con artist, somewhere in between? I think you're concerned about this point, but I don't think anybody has questioned your good intentions. And really, if you were intent on fraud, trying to rip off the Apple II community would be a pretty poor business plan.

- The abilities of the party they're sending their money. Does this party know what they're talking about? Again, it seems to me you've answered these questions. You know the TranswarpGS card (at least as far as I can tell - I'm not a hardware expert), and you seem to know manufacturing and how it can be cloned.

- The exact nature of the product they're purchasing. What does it look like? How much information can we get? What are the spects? Has an example of the board been tested to work and not damage my machine? Has the exact board I'd be buying been tested to work and not damage my machine? Have other people in the community used this and given it the thumbs-up?

This is the key question people are bringing up, I think. It helps that this card is meant to be an exact clone of a known entity. The features and benefits are clear, and we're all excited about it.

But speaking for me personally, while I'm interested in buying one of your clones, it's a tough road to pay $180 on a preorder without the rest of what I described above - a schematic, pictures, evidence that the cloned card was executed correctly by your supplier, knowledge that the cards will arrive (I've dealt with supplier issues before, and they do happen), and that it's tested and works without damaging the machine. This is the kind of background available that makes people comfortable ordering from Rich Dreher, or Vince Briel, or from Reactive Micro (RIP).

This isn't meant to reflect poorly on you - after all, it's not like you're withholding that information from us, as you haven't had a chance to see the finished product yet either. But, speaking personally, this is why I think I'll wait for the production run - for me, the $20 savings isn't worth the warm and fuzzies I'd have for a finished, tested product.

I'm definitely a big fan of what you have planned and can't wait to see the final result.

Cheers,
Chris Hafner

[IUnknown]

I'm not accusing you of fraud. I just have a hard time believe that
after 15 years of people saying that we need a "new" TWGS production,
that someone would come along and completely clone, produce and test
such a device in the span of a few months.

That sir, is called skepticism .... not accusation of fraud.

Personally, this is how I read your post....

"I don't have a working device in my hands, nor has it been tested,
nor do I have any photos, or any schematics..... but my contractor/
supplier (unnamed) says everything is going to be hunky dory... Please
send me $180, and I'll ship in a couple of months... or maybe
sooner.... "

I appreciate your efforts and TRULY hope this works out as you
intended.... but you are asking people to throw down $180 on an
unproven, untested, and yet unrealized device. You should expect
posts like mine.

[nyder]

I'm going to point something out here. Fraud isn't something new to users of Old Computers. I bet most the big players here can tell stories about stuff that was "going to be made" that they paid for "preorders" only to never see their money again, nor the product.

You claim you have boards being made, yet you have no proof of it, and you want people to plunk down $180 on your word. Then worse, you get all offended because some people said something. And worse, you don't even have a test batch, you do NOT know that these will run. No proof, no test batch. If i could afford to buy one, I still wouldn't do a preorder, unless you can get someone people backing you up that you are actually making a product.

If this butthurts you, then next time do your homework. Provide pictures, and test it out before you start taking preorders, because in my experience, shit just doesn't work like that, usually there is other problems.

I wasn't going to say anything about this being really sketchy, until you went off on someone, now I'm pretty sure it's fake, and it's going to take actual proof to convince me.

[Erik Holter]

Yes, fraud isn't anything new to users of old computers. I have taken a "lot of risk" many times, and right now I'm about to make a write off of close to USD300for another order I made from another company.

When that is said I also think that those who are trying to provide new products for old computers are taking a high risk as well. That is why I have now placed and payed for a pre-order from Conrad for his new clone card. Yes it would be great with photos etc. but I still have decided to support this effort.

I also would like to add that Conrad is not new to this game, ref. ReactiveMicro. I have bought from Conrad/ReactiveMicro before and the experience was really nothing but positive!

You are free to do what you want to do, including waiting for the final batch. Personally I chose differently, and I wish Conrad the best of luck going forward with his pre-order batch :-):-) If he succeed it certainly is a great milestone for the IIgs retro computing to get new accelerator cards on the marked.

Regards,
Erik

[STYNX]

I can get the tension because something might be coming back to life
that was dead for so long. I myself have lost several 100€ over the
years to shallow companies that announced the 'fucking second coming
of christ' for retro-computers. I can't say for sure everything will
be perfect and ok, thats the risk of life. Its a bit like smoking or
drinking, its either for fun or an addiction! No one really _needs_ a
TWGS, we _want_ to have it and thats ok. I will be happy for sure if
there is a new vendor for A2-accessories but i will not have sleepless
nights if i don't.

@Conrad: You should loosen up a little. I know that you are taking a
_big_ financial risk, but you're talking to your future customers.
Even if you might be right, it is always better to address fears and
thoughts of the community in a professional (nonemotional) way. Don't
let yourself be held back by naysayers, you will prove them wrong when
you succeed.

-Jonas

[BLuRry]

I think that the recent explosion of excitement about the Barndoor accelerator has left a lot of folks a bit skeptical -- so nevermind all that noise and go do that voodoo that you do so well.

-B

[Conrad]

How am I 'butthurt' (I never got that one)? How am I 'going off'? How has IUnknown not made accusations? He/she has said that he/she doubts I can produce a product at this pricepoint, which implies that that since I am claiming that I am offering a product at this pricepoint I am either crooked, a moron, or both. Furthermore, they have not based this allegation on any sort of fact, and have instead backed up their attack with information that is not only wrong but can also be disproven by doing a Google Images search for 'TransWarpGS' and looking at the card. I never got upset with anyone else who challenged myself or my products either publicly or privately, here or elsewhere, and there have been several, I have made sure to address their concerns politely and provide reassurance as best as I can. This however has really gotten to me because they haven't shown any sort of care to either research their claims or qualify them with unsurity. They didn't say 'I was under the impresssion that the TWGS made use of custom logic, how did you or your contractor handle that?' but have instead claimed that 1. the card IS based around one or more ASICs, 2. that my contractor surely could not clone this card at this pricepoint, and 3. that 'If cloning the card was easy it would have been done already.' The final one really gets to me because this was by no means easy and its entirely possible that I am the only one who has considered this approach, although I have no way to say that for sure. I have put up a great deal out of pocket for this to be done and I am offering them at 0 profit for the benefit of the community, is it so much to ask that someone research their claims for 5 minutes before making a post that could really turn people away from my product?

Putting all that aside, I am going to now tell you how the card was cloned so that there will be no more doubts or anything like that. I kind of wanted it to be a surprise with some diagrams I was making and planning to include with each order but whatever.

1. I send the company an Apple IIGS ROM01, a spare ROM01 motherboard, and 2 TransWarpGS cards in working order. This was not required, but for the sake of speed I provided them with all the components necessary to assemble a working TWGS card so they could test their work faster.

2. The company desolders all the components from one of the cards and scans the card front and back.

3. The company puts the card in CNC machine and shaves off extremely thin layers of the card one at a time, examining the card after each layer is removed. Once the next copper layer is exposed they stop and scan it, repeating the process until all layers have been scanned.

4. I didn't have to do this step because Henry already had it done, but I'll document it here for the sake of completeness. If the GALs had not already been made available, the company would have decapped them. This involves using an acid to dissolve the package of the GAL and then examining the silicon under a powerful microscope to determine the fusemap of the GAL. Alternatively it is sometimes possible to bruteforce a GAL by running all possible inputs on its pins and recording the output, but depending on the logic mode of the GAL this can be less reliable and as such I would have gone with decapping. Thankfully this was not required and has ensured a good few dollars were shaved off the final cost.

5. They produce a schematic and a GERBER file based on the scans. I will receive both once the full price has been paid.

6. They produce a board from their GERBER file, assemble it and test it in the provided IIGS against the second working original TWGS I provided them by running various tests that I outlined for them. Once it passes, which it did, they produce my initial run of 50 cards and send them out to me as soon as I pay the second half of the fee.

That's it. You can see there is no sorcery here. Its a straight-forward approach to a straight-forward problem. Can somebody please tell me how I have done something wrong by being upset by such a comment. If someone makes a claim that has no basis in fact against something you are doing, and does it in a place that it is possible to influence other peoples opinions of you and your product, don't you have the right to be a little upset? Would it have killed him/her to email me privately and express their concerns before doing what they did? I am new to producing for this community, which is very close knit, and if people start spreading doubt and untruth about me and my product, no one is going to buy anything and I'll be done before I started. Before you go making claims that I'm 'butthurt' and whatever else, put yourself in the same position, if you had a store and were selling a product that you had produced yourself and were selling at cost, and someone stood in front of your store handing out leaflets claiming that it was impossible to produce your product for the cost you are selling it at and that you were a fraud, wouldn't you be a little bit hurt or annoyed?

Thank you so much Erik for your support, I really do appreciate it. Thank you Clay for your kind words and for everything else! Thank you Chris for your point of view. Thank you too Jonas for your comment (and for everything else ;)). Yes I did overreact a little bit with my final comment, I should have let myself cool off a bit before writing my response, but I feel that my other comments were apt. IUnknown could have read the other thread to see the discussion regarding the lack of custom chips on the TWGS or could have contacted me personally before posting what they did. For those who are saying they want to wait for pictures/testimony/whatever else, please do, there's no harm in being cautious. For those who have and continue to preorder cards, thank you so much for your support and your patronage.

By the way, for those who don't know, since the Drew][ stereo card is out of production I am currently designing a stereo card for the IIGS. Stay tuned for more info on that.

[Conrad]

Thank you as well BLuRry. I very much appreciate your comment and point of view. The thought of me as a voodoo witchdoctor shaking a gourd and ingesting peyote to connect my mind to the spirit world and pull forth a new TWGS was good for a laugh, I needed that, so thank you.

[Conrad]

Oh and I just also noticed the comment about my company remaining unnamed. This is because they requested this. They never take contracts of this size and have no desire to inundated with requests from others for such work. I am in contact with them because I handled several very large contracts for reverse engineering the interfaces of some CNC equipment. After having known the head of engineering and the head of sales for their organization for several years and even having developed a personal friendship with them, they agreed to take on this project and possibly one or two future projects at cost as a personal favour to me. I just wanted to get that out there as well so that there is no question as to why I am not revealing which contractor I am using.

[Mark Frischknecht]

Hello Conrad,

Is there going to be a way of telling the diffrence between one of the
new TWGS your producing and the Vintage TWGS's?

V/R

Mark Frischknecht

[Conrad]

Hello Mark,

Yes, there will be a way to tell. Several people have contributed in big ways to this project through donations of hardware and financial support. Their nicknames will be included on the copper layers (less space but much more long term than the silkscreen layer) wherever they fit. For example, one name is located in the small square of empty space at the center of the CPU socket's pins on the back of the card, another is on the cache card. The card's traces and silkscreen layer will be the same, although considering that they will be made by a different manufacturer, they will certainly not be identical, although as I have previously said that I have not seen the card with my own eyes yet, I can't describe the exact differences other than the names. I will let everyone know as soon as I have the cards in my hands.

[Bill Buckels]

"Conrad" <conrad...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The big day is finally here!! I just wanted to let you know that
> preordering is open now for the TWGS clone. The preorder price is $180
> Canadian Dollars.

Hi Conrad,

I will send my $180.00 Canadian preorder for a TWGS Clone in the next couple
of days, and I am both appreciative and in awe of your dedication and
accomplishment in making this product available for "chump-change". My card
will be coming to Gimli, Manitoba so if you will be sending it Canada Post I
will also be appreciative of not needing to pay Foreign Freight as has been
the case with so many of my other toys by the many other talented
public-spirited Apple II enthusiasts (and C64 and Z80 enthusiasts) that help
keep this whole brain-tickling hobby alive and vital.

I immensely enjoyed reading what you have done here... and the potential of
what you can do in the future for what I consider purely honourable reasons
and I thought your response to skepticism was appropriate. If anyone wants
to hear really harsh words just send them out on Lake Winnipeg Commercial
Fishing for Walleye with me and let them hear me swear!

We are Winter Fishing now... come by for some complimentary fillets if you
are ever out this way! We fish all 3 seasons... Spring, Fall, and Winter.

That's what I do now after my two latest careers, the first in CAD,
parametrics, and CNC when we actually needed to know something and the
second career spanning about 30 years as a Software Developer and ISO 9000
Team Leader. I could also go way back to the '60's and tell you what I was
working at then, but hey! you get the idea where I am coming-from...

I am optimistic and delighted to be included in your accomplishment, as I
have been by other projects in here in the past.

Thank you very much! This thread was a great read and I am sorry if it was a
little shocking for you. Kudos!

Bill Buckels

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher
a hog, con a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts,
build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders,
cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyse a new problem, pitch manure,
program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects"

Robert A. Heinlein

[nyder]

Sorry, butthurt is a term for getting pissed at something. Internet meme and all that.

It's possible I took your answers as being something other then mellow, and if so, I apologize. Just understand how this looks. You came in with big promises, wants money for preorders, and have no proof at all this is real. It sounds good though.

Good luck on it, hope it works out with no problems.

[hafne...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, January 2, 2013 3:28:46 PM UTC-8, Conrad wrote:

> Putting all that aside, I am going to now tell you how the card was cloned so that there will be no more doubts or anything like that. I kind of wanted it to be a surprise with some diagrams I was making and planning to include with each order but whatever.

<snip>

This was actually really cool, and answered a lot of questions. So is it true that the cloned card has been tested and successful on a real IIGS? If so, that makes me feel a lot better about the project.

If that's true, I'd be happy to ante up $50 as a deposit on my order once the the production batch is available, assuming you're opening to receiving it this way. This sounds real enough to be a probability - and if it doesn't work out, hey, I've received so much help and support from this community that $50 invested in the possibility of accelerator cloning for all IIGS fans seems like a worthwhile way to pay it forward. (I can't quite get to $180, but hopefully $50 helps).

Let me know if you're open to this type of deposit arrangement.

<snip>

> How has IUnknown not made accusations? He/she has said that he/she doubts I can produce a product at this pricepoint, which implies that that since I am claiming that I am offering a product at this pricepoint I am either crooked, a moron, or both.

I just didn't read it that way. He/she went out of his/her way to say that they're excited about the project and wish you the best, but wasn't sure the approach would be successful. It didn't read like even remotely a personal attack to me.

Here's my thoughts - every project gets some scrutiny, and if it doesn't, nobody is interested in it! I get a lot of scrutiny when I put a project together at work, and I've always seen that as a good thing, an opportunity to make your case to an interested group of observers, not an attack.

So people are asking questions because they're interested and are prospective customers. Just use it as an excuse to sell your product. It can be a great marketing opportunity to tell your story and to get people excited. In short, rather than telling people why they're wrong, tell them why they should be excited that you're right.

For example, here's a possible response I just whipped up for your consideration (some of which is extrapolated from what I've been reading here):

"I understand this seems too good to be true - I'm promising a long-awaited product that is in hot demand, and a straight clone sounds too easy. But I think others haven't come up with the same approach to cloning the board, and since there aren't any custom chips in the Transwarp GS, it's actually not that hard. I have relationships with a manufacturing company that has been deconstructing a card and building a clone from that schematic. They have tested a sample successfully on a IIGS I sent them, so it's not just possible, it's done - which is incredibly exciting.

Unfortunately I'm in the same position you are when it comes to pictures or a schematic - I receive those and the cards once I provide the second payment - because the supplier needs to protect their time investment as well. But I've worked with this supplier before, and I trust them. I've already fronted a lot of money to get this project moving, but to pay the final bit I need to sell some pre-orders.

I get that that's risky for all of you, and requires some trust, but I've already risked some of my money to make this happen. I'm offering a discount to make that risk more attractive. I already have a reputation in the community from working with Henry at Reactive Micro, and my goal is to be a hardware supplier to this community in the long-term like he was - so giving you all a bad experience with my first project would be a terrible idea.

I can commit to everybody who trusts me with a pre-order to give you all a weekly update with the project status, even if there's nothing to report, just to keep you updated and let you know I'm not just going to disappear with your money. Hopefully I can impress you with the product and the experience of buying one of my products so that you'll consider me when I bring out my next products."

I don't know that this sort of approach would convince everybody, but my opinion is it would definitely put a different spin on the conversation, and that level of openness and commitment to communication would help people feel a lot more comfortable about betting their money on what is still a somewhat unknown prospect.

Hopefully this doesn't come across as a lecture - I mean it to be helpful, since I have to convince reluctant and skeptical people on a fairly regular basis. :-)

Cheers,
Chris Hafner

[Conrad]

Hi guys,

First of all, Bill, thank you so much for your support and your kind words. I am shipping via CanadaPost and you will pay to the cent what I pay, so don't worry about that. Thank you so much for your offer of free fillets, I will make sure to stop by if I'm ever in the area!

@nyder: I completely understand your skepticism, 100%, and everyone else's too. The only things that set me off were:

A: A false statement presented as truth without qualification of uncertainty
B: The statement that "if it were easy it would have been done already"

The first one I would have ignored, but paired with the second it REALLY upset me, because it implies that either it must be easy (and if it was someone must have already done it) or it must be beyond me (if we accept that it is not easy). It's not the words that bother me it's what they imply, whether it was intentional or not. Anyway I want to be done with it, so lets just say I won't be responding that way anymore even if I feel it is warranted, I said what I needed to say.

@chris: I really appreciate your perspective and I always find it interesting how two people can see things so differently. I have given a lot of responses like yours since I announced this project but just this time I wanted to speak my mind about how the person on the receiving end of one's words can take things to mean something very different then what you implied. When I am being critical of another's work I am always quite careful to stick to the facts, and to research any point of contention, even if I am sure I already know what I'm researching. Making comments like "if it was easy it would have been done already" is a fallacy. There have been many inventions or reinventions over the years that seem remarkably simple in retrospect. Is it so hard to believe that someone looked at a problem from a different point of view and did something that was either not thought of before or was thought up and written off as impractical due to different circumstances. Anyway, I know what you are driving at, believe me.

To answer your question a $50 dollar deposit is fine if you can't afford the full preorder price at present. I'll let you know when the cards arrive and I will put one aside for you until you can afford the preorder price. Believe me I know how it feels to see something like this pass you by because the funds are not available. I wasn't going to tell anyone this because I didn't want people to think I was asking for sympathy. The preorder price is actually $20.00 below my calculated costs, but I wanted to keep the final price ≥$200. I just wanted to get that out before someone challenged how I was saying I was offering it at cost and still offering it at a lower cost for preorder. Anyway, thanks everyone for their support, their kind words, their comments, their questions, and everything else.

[Conrad]

I realized I didn't answer your question. Yes it has been tested and confirmed working through a comparative analysis of a known working AE TWGS and a cloned TWGS. Every test I designated was performed with identical results, and they even played around with it themselves trying to create an unusual condition to see if it would respond in any way differently. It didn't respond differently in any case. So to me, that means it is a perfect copy.

[ball.o...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, January 3, 2013 12:16:55 AM UTC-8, Conrad wrote:
> I realized I didn't answer your question. Yes it has been tested and confirmed working through a comparative analysis of a known working AE TWGS and a cloned TWGS. Every test I designated was performed with identical results, and they even played around with it themselves trying to create an unusual condition to see if it would respond in any way differently. It didn't respond differently in any case. So to me, that means it is a perfect copy.

I for one believe what Conrad says. I have both personally known and met him over the years and reverse-engineering is one of his jobs. I doubt he's going to break his big moment by failing to deliver something that the IIgs community would go crazy over. If he says he's done it, he has.

[Antoine Vignau]

Still nice project, Conrad.

I do not give my point of view on the hardware side but due to possible copyright issues, do you provide the ROM with your board or do you plan on rewriting the firmware?

Thank you,
Antoine

[Sean Fahey]

On Thursday, January 3, 2013 2:10:47 PM UTC-6, Antoine Vignau wrote:

> I do not give my point of view on the hardware side but due to possible copyright issues, do you provide the ROM with your board or do you plan on rewriting the firmware?

Of course he's going to provide the ROM.

Bill G. did it. SHH did it. ReactiveMicro did it. I don't think Dan Pote or the ghosts of AE's lawyers will care.

[chris....@gmail.com]

On Thursday, January 3, 2013 12:16:55 AM UTC-8, Conrad wrote:

> I realized I didn't answer your question. Yes it has been tested and confirmed working through a comparative analysis of a known working AE TWGS and a cloned TWGS. Every test I designated was performed with identical results, and they even played around with it themselves trying to create an unusual condition to see if it would respond in any way differently. It didn't respond differently in any case. So to me, that means it is a perfect copy.

Great to hear. I just sent over my $50 deposit and wish you luck on putting together this extremely exciting project.

Cheers,
Chris Hafner

[Sean Fahey]

On Thursday, January 3, 2013 2:16:55 AM UTC-6, Conrad wrote:

>> So to me, that means it is a perfect copy.

It will be interesting to see. Was the SRAM engineering fix recreated also, or did they incorporate it into the board as a new trace?

[fx]

On Sunday, December 30, 2012 7:33:42 PM UTC-5, Conrad wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
>
>
> The big day is finally here!! I just wanted to let you know that preordering is open now for the TWGS clone. The preorder price is $180 Canadian Dollars. This price includes a 14MHz card with 32k cache. You can specify a different speed at no cost, or you can request multiple oscillators to be included at a cost of $3.00 Canadian dollars per extra oscillator. This price does not include shipping, but shipping is not payable until the card is ready for delivery. Delivery right now is set for the end of February, but it could be 2-3 weeks sooner or later then that depending on the postal service. I will be taking preorders for the next two weeks, after which the preordering will be closed. The card will go on regular sale 1 week after preorder shipping starts and the regular sale price will be $200 Canadian. The card is quite popular, so preordering ensures you will get one of the first batch. Payments can be sent via paypal to conrad...@gmail.com or via MoneyGram for those who don't have PayPal. Either method is fine, neither is preferred. Please let me know if you are interested in preordering. Thank you very much!

Hi Conrad, since the factory does have a working prototype, even though you don't, do you think it would be possible for them to take a video or photos of it working with the case off? That way we can see it but they don't have to release any IP before they get the final payment.

If I saw this I'd kick in my $180 now, and maybe others would too. How many orders do you need before they will start production and release the designs to you?

[IUnknown]

Conrad,

Do me a favor.... and be objective for about 30 seconds.

If someone was trying to sell you a car, but couldn't tell you whether
it runs, had no photo of the car, and had never seen it or driven
it..... but wanted you to put $180 down on it..... would you do it?
Probably not. I know I wouldn't.

Congrats on your dedication to producing a (badly needed) device for
the IIgs. A LOT of people (including myself) will be indebted to you
if this works as advertised. I truly hope that you have the solution
for the ebay nightmare that a lot of us have endured over the years.

All that being said, my skepticism is well grounded, regardless of
your intentions, expertise or resources.

I can assure you that my statements are not a personal or professional
attack. If you choose to perceive it as such, you can own it.

[CC Rider]

There is no "I" in TEAM but two in DIPSTICK.

[Kevin]

On Thursday, January 3, 2013 11:09:27 PM UTC-6, CC Rider wrote:
> There is no "I" in TEAM but two in DIPSTICK.

heh, I usually say there is no U in team either

[BLuRry]

(view with fixed-width font)

@@@@@ @@@@ @@@@ @@ @@
@ @ @ii@ @@ @@
@ @@@@ @@@@ @ @ @
@ @ @ii@ @ @
@ @@@@ @ii@ @ @

See? There! ^^

There is an "i" in team.

-B

[Conrad]

Hi guys,

Thanks for all the support first of all from everyone who has preordered. Thank you John for posting your thoughts, I didn't know you frequented this group. I feel bad that I didn't get to see you before you left Vancouver but I will be coming your way soon so hopefully I can stop by and say Hi. Thank you Clay so much for your kindness and generosity.

The products are currently on their way to me as we speak, with an estimated delivery time of 3 weeks. China Post is slow as hell but take excellent care of packages so I prefer them for important deliveries. My friends agreed to release the hardware before payment but are holding on to the GERBER file and schematics until payment is received, so I can have cards to show if they arrive before I can pay or schematics and GERBER files to show if I can pay before they arrive. Either way the wait is almost over.

To answer everyone, I TOTALLY understand the scepticism, like I said before. Like I also said I know it wasn't an intentional personal attack against me, I just said it could be interpreted as such. If people had asked for photos or video of the card in the last thread when I announced it I would have asked them to make some, but like I said first of all I didn't want to inconvenience my friends who were doing me a huge favour with this work, and second of all I tried to make this as fast-track as possible, because I know how interest wanes when development drags on. I guess I just felt a little underappreciated.

I am surprised how fast this first batch is going actually, I expected 50 to last a bit longer than it seems it will now. I will close preorders early if all of the cards become spoken for. If there are not enough to go around in the first batch don't dispair to anyone who doesn't get one, plans are in progress to produce a second batch as soon as the first is paid for. I am looking at a run of 100 for the second batch.

To answer your questions the fix has been incorporated into the board and the trace cuts have also been implemented as jumpers in case they are required, at least from everything they have told me. I don't know why I didn't think of that for differences that make this card distinguishable from the original.

[Sean Fahey]

On Friday, January 4, 2013 1:29:03 PM UTC-6, Conrad wrote:

> I guess I just felt a little underappreciated.

Come to KansasFest and we'll treat you to steak and BBQ.

> To answer your questions the fix has been incorporated into the board and the trace cuts have also been implemented as jumpers in case they are required, at least from everything they have told me. I don't know why I didn't think of that for differences that make this card distinguishable from the original.

Spiffy. Looking forward to it.

[Jerome Vernet]

Le 04/01/13 20:29, Conrad a �crit :

> Hi guys,
>
> Thanks for all the support first of all from everyone who has preordered.

Card come fully populated, with processor, GAl, etc ? Ready To Run ?

As other people, I must admit that I am (was?) a little bit skeptical.

My TWGS died completly this afternoon, the second one also, I m waiting
for first return from your first users !
I hope that everything will be OK.

Jerome

[Whazzupdoc]

I'm in for 1 TWGS clone & some extra crystals. Payment sent.
I have a ROM 1 and a ROM 3 - so very likely to make the purchase of a second one.

[Steven Hirsch]

Conrad,

I've dropped you a couple of notes in private e-mail relative to the TWGS
clone project. Never had any response. Are you getting them?

(All: Sorry for the noise)

Steve

[Apple2Steward]

"Conrad" <conrad...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:af1d3002-baaa-45e3...@googlegroups.com...

.. snip ..

If people had asked for photos or video of the card in the last
thread when I announced it I would have asked them to make some,
but like I said first of all I didn't want to inconvenience my
friends who were doing me a huge favour with this work

.. snip ..

I came in late to this thread.

Why not just have one of your friends at the company snap off a
few cellphone pix of a stack of new TWGS, post them somewhere,
and remove all doubt? Easy, no sweat to do, and what a marketing
tool that would be!!

The lack of pictures documenting the process is just shooting
this otherwise laudable project in the foot.

I don't get it.

[J. Vernet]

Le 31/12/2012 01:33, Conrad a �crit :

> Hi everyone,
>
> The big day is finally here!! I just wanted to let you know that preordering is open now for the TWGS clone.
>

Any news of your Transwarp clone ?

I'm still intersested.


JV

[Sean Fahey]

On Sunday, December 30, 2012 6:33:42 PM UTC-6, Conrad wrote:
>
> The big day is finally here!! I just wanted to let you know that preordering is open now for the TWGS clone.

Anything new from Conrad? My reader went tango uniform.

[Steven Hirsch]

I was sort of wondering that myself. I've sent him several notes in private
e-mail over the past month and had no responses.

Hope all is ok.

[mrbrad]

er i'm one of those foo...er i mean "enlightened optimistic types" that
already sent in money...i too hope things are ok...(i'd hate this to be
one of those life lessons...they usually hurt!"

brad

[Steven Hirsch]

By "all is ok", I meant with Conrad personally. It was not intended as
speculation about the accelerator project.

[Sean Fahey]

On Tuesday, February 5, 2013 7:56:53 AM UTC-6, Steven Hirsch wrote:

> By "all is ok", I meant with Conrad personally. It was not intended as
> speculation about the accelerator project.

I wrote Conrad an e-mail earlier today and he responded:

Hey Sean,

Sorry I didn't reply back. I am fighting a horrible flu right now. There are still some preorders available if anyone is interested. The cards are currently on their way from China by boat after being delayed for 2 weeks. I am not sure why they chose shipment by boat but apparently that is how things are done when placing bulk orders from overseas companies. Can you possibly pass on the message on CSA2 that I am ill and will come around in a couple days for me please? I would really appreciate it Sean!

Best regards,
Conrad

[D Finnigan]

Sean Fahey wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 5, 2013 7:56:53 AM UTC-6, Steven Hirsch wrote:
>
>> By "all is ok", I meant with Conrad personally. It was not intended as
>> speculation about the accelerator project.
>
>
> I wrote Conrad an e-mail earlier today and he responded:
>
> Hey Sean,
>
> Sorry I didn't reply back. I am fighting a horrible flu right now. There
> are still some preorders available if anyone is interested. The cards are
> currently on their way from China by boat after being delayed for 2 weeks.
> I am not sure why they chose shipment by boat but apparently that is how
> things are done when placing bulk orders from overseas companies.

To keep costs down, I suspect. Shipping from China to the Western World
isn't on the whole cheap, but boat ought well be less expensive than plane.
Or than teleporter.

--
]DF$
Apple II Book: http://macgui.com/newa2guide/
Apple II Archive: http://macgui.com/vault/
Apple II Web & Blog hosting: http://a2hq.com/

[nyder]

It's even cheaper if you have stuff in the top containers since the chances of them being lost overboard is greater. =)

[Steven Hirsch]

On 02/06/2013 01:19 PM, Sean Fahey wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 5, 2013 7:56:53 AM UTC-6, Steven Hirsch wrote:
>
>> By "all is ok", I meant with Conrad personally. It was not intended as
>> speculation about the accelerator project.

That's exactly what I was concerned about - health issues. Sorry to hear he's
been laid low.

> I wrote Conrad an e-mail earlier today and he responded:
>

[Conrad]

Hi Everyone! Sorry for falling off the map for a while. I was fighting a nasty and rather persistent flu. Have no fear, the project is still on track. Shipping is just taking a rather long time. Some information on how things are done for those who have never done bulk production orders with overseas companies before. The process goes something like this, although I've simplified things and left out all the lingo cause it can be a bit confusing!

Once you have determined the details of your agreement such as the quantity, price per unit, and so on, you go to your bank and have them draft a letter of credit, which basically says that the funds are there and will be transferred to the seller upon delivery of the goods. This letter is sent to the bank in the foreign country. The seller transfers the goods to the shipping agent and receives whats called a "bill of lading" from the shipping agent. This "bill of lading" serves two purposes, it serves as a receipt that the goods have been received by the agent and that they take responsibility for them, and it also serves as a title to the goods, whoever holds the bill of lading is the legal owner of the goods. The bill of lading is then transferred by the seller to the overseas bank. The seller's bank then transfers it to my bank here. When the goods arrive here, I will inspect them, determine that they are of the required condition and quality, and then I inform my bank, who will inform the seller's bank to release the funds and will release the bill of lading to me. I then take the bill of lading and claim the goods. Currently, the stage we are at is that the goods are currently en-route to Canada on the boat as of a short while ago after being held at port for a short time. The banks are in possession of the funds and the bill of lading. As soon as things arrive in Vancouver I will go inspect the goods and take photos for everyone, and soon after that I will take possession, at which point they will be passed on to everyone. Apparently this is the way most overseas transactions are conducted because it provides absolute security for both the buyer and seller. The buyer cannot deny funds and take the goods, and the seller cannot deny the goods (or provide an inferior quality product) and take the funds. My seller actually released the goods to be shipped before the letter of credit was with their bank, because they trust me, otherwise things would have probably been delayed an additional week or two. As it stands now, things should be falling within the initial shipping date I set which was the end of February +/- 2-3 weeks. If things really drag on it could possibly be a week later than that, but that is not likely, I would just rather provide a longer estimate and deliver early than to provide a short estimate and deliver late. Sorry for those who were worried, I didn't mean to make people concerned!

@Steven: I have not received anything from you in quite some time. Perhaps I'm losing it in spam or something. Please resend any messages and I will keep an eye out for them!

Conrad

[Sean Fahey]

Conrad, pinged you via e-mail but didn't get a reply. I was checking in to ask you some questions concerning the board.

[fx]

So, we're coming up on the end of February +3 weeks. Have the cards arrived in Vancouver yet? Have you been to see them? If they haven't arrived yet, do you have an estimated arrival date from the shipping company? Thanks for any updates you can provide us.

[Sean Fahey]

On Sunday, March 17, 2013 12:46:58 AM UTC-5, fx wrote:

> So, we're coming up on the end of February +3 weeks. Have the cards arrived in Vancouver yet? Have you been to see them? If they haven't arrived yet, do you have an estimated arrival date from the shipping company? Thanks for any updates you can provide us.

>>>

I've now written him a few times, and no reply.

[nyder]

Well, shit. I hope those of you who foolishly paid money in advance didn't get ripped off.

Let's see, stuff taking longer then the person said, person did appear a month ago to say he's been "sick" and a lot of stuff about how shipping orders take a long time.

I'm sure everything is okay and this is on the up and up. Sounds like reasonable excuses.

Too bad no one warned about this happening. Oh wait, people did.

[Howard Poe]

Dr. Ken B. posted the below over at VCF on March 12th, looks like the cards are held up in customs at the moment, but that should be straightened out soon:

I just got an email from Conrad yesterday (he's been having mail-receipt problems of late on top of everything else) and he indicated that he hopes to have them out to the pre-order customers starting the end of this month (I just checked his email again to be sure I got that time frame correct). They would have been in his hands already except for a Customs hold-up.

[nyder]

On Monday, March 18, 2013 3:50:14 PM UTC-7, Howard Poe wrote:
> Dr. Ken B. posted the below over at VCF on March 12th, looks like the cards are held up in customs at the moment, but that should be straightened out soon:
>
>
>
> I just got an email from Conrad yesterday (he's been having mail-receipt problems of late on top of everything else) and he indicated that he hopes to have them out to the pre-order customers starting the end of this month (I just checked his email again to be sure I got that time frame correct). They would have been in his hands already except for a Customs hold-up.

I hope that's the case for ya then. Any proof on that though? Or just him saying so?

[mrbrad]

well i've sent in my money....and have had some email contact with
him...if it is the case where the cards are vaporware...it seems dumb to
keep in contact on this group with the occasional folks...the $$$ are
already sent in ..so why reply?

we will see i guess but i'm betting he comes thru....

brad
former sysop lost gonzo bbs

[Sean Fahey]

On Monday, March 18, 2013 10:53:36 PM UTC-5, mrbrad wrote:

> we will see i guess but i'm betting he comes thru.

Not much choice but to wait and see. I'm disappointed he hasn't actively kept everyone updated on the status of the project, especially since we're in the (much) latter part of the delivery window. If much more time passes without an update, inquiries will have to be made.

[chris....@gmail.com]

The lack of communication is disappointing. Even if things are on the up-and-up and just hit legitimate delays, the lack of communication (and the excuses for it) do raise some red flags. Everybody is excited about this project, but given that he has people's money, Conrad should be overcommunicating what's going on, not undercommunicating.

Cheers,
Chris Hafner

[Neo Winston]

He was replying to my messages pretty fast, but to the last one, sent yesterday, I didn't receive any reply yet.

Like the others, I'm waiting for an update, and if it doesn't come any soon I'll start to think that our money is gone, unfortunately.

Neo Winston

[rwal...@gmail.com]

Any word on the status of these? I am really hoping these aren't vaporware, I have not put money down like some have, but was hoping I could eventually order one of these once his shipment came in.

[Bill Garber]

<rwal...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:c9cc83
b8-aae0-4913-9f...@googlegroups.com...

Conrad posted a new thread, "UPDATE: TWGS Clone Status"
on March 20, 2013 at 6:59 PM... That time here anyway.

Bill Garber
http://www.sepa-electronics.com

[sande...@groundzero.com.br]

Hi my friend, I want one... but Im from Brazil. How can I pre-order with U?

[Bill Garber]

"san...@unixwork.com.br" <sande...@groundzero.com.br> wrote in
message news:c08a270c-a779-4047...@googlegroups.com...

> Hi my friend, I want one... but Im from Brazil. How can I pre-order
> with U?

I didn't even know that Pre-ordering was a possibility...
More importantly... What is the pre-order price? 8>)

Bill Garber - I love my
C1 D0 D0 CC C5 A0 C9 C9 C7 D3
http://www.sepa-electronics.com

[CC Rider]

Time warp!
Those were the days.

[Leandro Polimeno]

Em sexta-feira, 15 de maio de 2015 22:28:13 UTC-3, san...@unixwork.com.br escreveu:
> Hi my friend, I want one... but Im from Brazil. How can I pre-order with U?

Mate,

Beware ... this is the for the Conrad clone, they take the money of folks here and never delivered the card !!

Folks have they money back ?!

Regards,

Polimeno

[Bill Garber]

"Leandro Polimeno" <leandro....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:61bcab8b-95df-4433...@googlegroups.com...

Here is the real one, if you want one. I don't think
they are taking pre-orders though.

http://a2central.com/6267/testing-the-ua2rm-transwarpgs-clone-begins-this-weekend/

[Don Schrank]

Oh my this is really happening. ?. !.

[Henry (Support At ReActiveMicro)]

On Sunday, May 17, 2015 at 7:40:05 AM UTC-4, Don Schrank wrote:
> Oh my this is really happening. ?. !.

Hello Don.

No, it's not happening... it's HAPPENED! ;-)

Thanks to Bill for the link on A2C about the unit we sent to them for review and testing. We're still discussing the actual release date, however we are thinking about how to sell the initial run.

Announcements should be on A2C as well as the UltimateApple2.com forums.



Henry

[Doug]

Any idea on pricing? That will make the decision for me.

[Bill Garber]

"Doug" <dougen...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7a2247f3-3504-4b7f...@googlegroups.com...

> Any idea on pricing? That will make the decision for me.

The pricing is here on this web page.

[Doug]

Hmm. Almost as much as an original. Looks like in going to have to pass at that price. It would be great to get one but I can't justify that much $$. Any word on a new sonic Blaster?

[SuperNewbie]

>
>> Any idea on pricing? That will make the decision for me.
>

Currently $550 USD plus shipping.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---

[Steven Hirsch]

On 05/22/2015 01:32 AM, SuperNewbie wrote:
>>
>>> Any idea on pricing? That will make the decision for me.
>>
>
> Currently $550 USD plus shipping.

Way more than I can justify spending. I'll pass.

[SuperNewbie]

Me too. I was hoping they would have figured out a way to make them
cheaper with some sort of a modern, yet compatible design, but I guess
its not really possible? I have heard that no one is making any real
profit on this, and its just a situation where the cost of this design
is expensive to manufacture especially in low volumes.

[Jesse]

Well that's a shame. I was really hoping for something in the
neighborhood of $250-350. At least an option exists that may be
somewhat readily available instead of people waiting for them to come up
on eBay. You're also getting the supremo everything with these cards so
they're much faster and probably more stable than the original stock cards.

[mrbrad]

I MAY get one eventually..but with a carte blanche II on the way I'm
probably tap'd out till the end of the year....(to many toys too little
time....and no money!)

just to give the card makers 'some hope' I will eventually get one!



---
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[J. Vernet]

I will bought one, selling my 2 original TWGS for that. Hope I will get
~250$ each ;).

But need to sell them before everybody is aware that there is new TWGS
build.
I'm waiting for first return of customers.

JV

[Henry (Support At ReActiveMicro)]

For those awaiting more news...

With some luck the Store at UltimateApple2.com will be opening shortly and listing the initial run of TransWarp GS boards will be listed. Only 10 protos will be released for those who like one-of-a-kind boards.

v2 of the boards should then come out after that, however time us unknown as a little relayout work should be done first.



Henry

[K-K00L]

On 2015-06-15 22:22:52 +0000, "Henry (Support At ReActiveMicro)"

GLWTS

[Sean Fahey]

On Monday, June 15, 2015 at 5:22:53 PM UTC-5, Henry (Support At ReActiveMicro)

> Only 10 protos will be released for those who like one-of-a-kind boards.

10 of a kind? ;)

[miste...@gmail.com]

Bump! Henry.... WHEN, Henryyyyy.....

<think annoying snot nosed kid at your elbow tugging on your shirt>

[Joe Carter]

Any update to v2 run?

[amart...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, February 10, 2016 at 2:15:47 PM UTC-5, Joe Carter wrote:
> Any update to v2 run?

Hey Joe,

It will be some time at this moment. Maybe second half of 2016. Too many other projects going on right now in the UltimateMicro labs that must be finished up.
for example:

-IDEA2c
-A2Pi
-PowerSupply
-VideoAdapter


The next revision of the 8meg memory card and the newest revision of the Scalable Oscillator which will be available very soon.



-Anthony-

[mrbrad]

would this 'Scalable Oscillator' work with an original version Transwarp
GS? (have a 14.75mh one from back in the day)

curious..probably as good as it can do but I have had the stuff to mod
my 2nd one for years with the old transwarp upgrade mod but have never
bothered....probably if i did so I'd use your device

brad
former sysop lost gonzo bbs (the above twgs ran like 10 years 24/7 at
that speed for he bbs fyi) :)

---
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[Glaeken Trismegestus]

>
> Hi Conrad, could you please put up some photos and/or schematics of the
> prototype? I would really like to see what I'm getting before I order
> it. Thanks!

They are located in the magical land of fairies and unicorns, just past
the dark forest near the temple of Dolos and Apate. Best of luck!

--
Regards,
Glaeken

[mrbrad]

Yeah still looking for mine that I ordered like 2 years ago or so
...so faries indeed ...ran off with the $$$ he did

live and learn

mr. brad

former sysop lost gonzo bbs