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6809 in an Apple II
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A2CPM
Jun 1, 2012, 5:46:57 AM6/1/12
to
Hi, y'all!
Interested in the 6809 CPU? Then you should join the Apple6809
group I started. Email me privately for an invitation...
Willi
Interested in the 6809 CPU? Then you should join the Apple6809
group I started. Email me privately for an invitation...
Willi
Michael Black
Jun 1, 2012, 11:31:09 AM6/1/12
to
Apple II, so they should go to some special place? Meanwhile, it
segregates people from the rest of the 6809 users, which are far more
numerous than those that had one in the Apple.
The specifics of a 6809 in an Apple II are relatively short, a burden (if
that) to pass over, while once there, the experience is the same as the
people using Flex or OS-9 (which in turn seems to be determined by which
board you could scrounge up at this point).
Michael
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Egan Ford
Jun 1, 2012, 12:34:49 PM6/1/12
to
but I have not seen any others.
c.s.m6809 is pretty much dead.
The Yahoo groups setup by Willi can hold files whereas c.s.apple2 cannot
and is a bit easier to manage than asimov or "the secret email account".
I am unsure why Yahoo groups need an invitation. Perhaps to limit spam?
I am not sure how long Yahoo (and their groups) will last.
Payton Byrd
Jun 1, 2012, 1:08:17 PM6/1/12
to
On Friday, June 1, 2012 11:34:49 AM UTC-5, Egan Ford wrote:
> I am unsure why Yahoo groups need an invitation. Perhaps to limit spam?
> I am not sure how long Yahoo (and their groups) will last.
I'm sure the parts of Yahoo that people actually use (like their groups engine) will live on as part of Windows Live when the takeover is complete. :)
> I am unsure why Yahoo groups need an invitation. Perhaps to limit spam?
> I am not sure how long Yahoo (and their groups) will last.
magnusfalkirk
Jun 1, 2012, 1:24:11 PM6/1/12
to
On Friday, June 1, 2012 11:34:49 AM UTC-5, Egan Ford wrote:
> The Yahoo groups setup by Willi can hold files whereas c.s.apple2 cannot
> and is a bit easier to manage than asimov or "the secret email account".
>
> I am unsure why Yahoo groups need an invitation. Perhaps to limit spam?
> I am not sure how long Yahoo (and their groups) will last.
Willi probably has his Yahoo Group Moderated, which means it would require an invite to join. He's probably got it that way, as you suggested, to stop spam.
> and is a bit easier to manage than asimov or "the secret email account".
>
> I am unsure why Yahoo groups need an invitation. Perhaps to limit spam?
> I am not sure how long Yahoo (and their groups) will last.
Dean
A2CPM
Jun 1, 2012, 1:32:54 PM6/1/12
to
Hi!
On Jun 1, 12:34 pm, Egan wrote:
<--- snip --->
But being invited just makes it easier to join the group. Then again,
I have no idea as to what kind of hoops you have to jump through to
join if one is not invited.
Willi
On Jun 1, 12:34 pm, Egan wrote:
<--- snip --->
> I am unsure why Yahoo groups need an invitation. Perhaps to limit spam?
> I am not sure how long Yahoo (and their groups) will last.
You do NOT need an invitation to join the Yahoo! Apple6809 group.
> I am not sure how long Yahoo (and their groups) will last.
But being invited just makes it easier to join the group. Then again,
I have no idea as to what kind of hoops you have to jump through to
join if one is not invited.
Willi
Michael Black
Jun 1, 2012, 1:42:00 PM6/1/12
to
On Fri, 1 Jun 2012, Egan Ford wrote:
> On 6/1/12 9:31 AM, Michael Black wrote:
>> On Fri, 1 Jun 2012, A2CPM wrote:
>>
>>> Hi, y'all!
>>>
>>> Interested in the 6809 CPU? Then you should join the Apple6809
>>> group I started. Email me privately for an invitation...
>>>
>> So balkanize things even more? A tiny subset ever used the 6809 in the
>> Apple II, so they should go to some special place? Meanwhile, it
>> segregates people from the rest of the 6809 users, which are far more
>> numerous than those that had one in the Apple.
>>
>> The specifics of a 6809 in an Apple II are relatively short, a burden
>> (if that) to pass over, while once there, the experience is the same as
>> the people using Flex or OS-9 (which in turn seems to be determined by
>> which board you could scrounge up at this point).
>>
>> Michael
>>
>
> Where do the 6809ers hang out? There are many in the coco communities, but I
> have not seen any others.
>
They've all disappeared. There is the comp.sys.tandy but too many have
> On 6/1/12 9:31 AM, Michael Black wrote:
>> On Fri, 1 Jun 2012, A2CPM wrote:
>>
>>> Hi, y'all!
>>>
>>> Interested in the 6809 CPU? Then you should join the Apple6809
>>> group I started. Email me privately for an invitation...
>>>
>> So balkanize things even more? A tiny subset ever used the 6809 in the
>> Apple II, so they should go to some special place? Meanwhile, it
>> segregates people from the rest of the 6809 users, which are far more
>> numerous than those that had one in the Apple.
>>
>> The specifics of a 6809 in an Apple II are relatively short, a burden
>> (if that) to pass over, while once there, the experience is the same as
>> the people using Flex or OS-9 (which in turn seems to be determined by
>> which board you could scrounge up at this point).
>>
>> Michael
>>
>
> Where do the 6809ers hang out? There are many in the coco communities, but I
> have not seen any others.
>
left, and indeed, I've seen people ask questions and the usual answer is
"go here...". There is/was a mailing list for the CoCo, and that had been
gated to Usenet, but that also dried up. One or both of them, there was a
deliberate mass migration at a very specific point, ignoring those of us
who had no interest in other forum spaces.
My point is that finding where traffic is may be more important than yet
another unique space. Any Apple specific details come from "where can I
get a Stellation board?" and whatever the other one was (I can't remember,
one was just a 6809 on a board that took over the Apple II like the Z80
card, and the other had a 6809 and RAM, like the fancier Z80 card, one, I
think the simpler one, ran Flex, the other could run Microware OS-9 that
was 'unix-like" and multitasking/multiuser), and how to get them running.
ONce that's occurred, it's about using the card, which would generally
mean using one of the two 6809 operating systems, which should already be
well handled by whatever is out there.
Other issues impact on the decline of newsgroups, but I've also seen
instances of someone setting up a highly specific "yahoo group" for one
very specific element of a larger field, and that does take that traffic
away from the more general newsgroup. But the loss is greater than the
loss of just those specific topic messages, the general newsgroup loses
those people often, they don't participate in the larger group. And in
one case I'm very much thinking of, a few years later the yahoo group is
ocmpletely dead.
Michael
Alex Freed
Jun 1, 2012, 5:09:34 PM6/1/12
to
page if needed.
At one point I looked closely at the Mill card thinking it should not be
too hard to make a configuration for the Carte Blanche to emulate it.
For the first test I used a real 6809 [ab]using a 500,000 gate FPGA to
replace a few hard gates on the board. So a demo from the Mill floppy
counted numbers on the screen. Not very exciting. So I made a
configuration with an emulated 6809 (at 25 MHz) running on CB instead
using the design by John E. Kent
http://members.optushome.com.au/jekent/system09/index.html
Clearly the emulated 6809 could be slowed down by a factor of 25 and
share the memory with Apple 2 ... not very exciting IMHO. If 10 people
wanted a clone of the Stellation Mill card, I could make the boards
using real 6809E CPUs available from Jameco.
Now a much more interesting project would be to combine System09 on a
chip with an Apple bus interface similar to the PCPI card, so that the
6809 could run at full speed and use 256 KB or RAM and the IDE hard
disk. The problem is that there are a very limited number of CB cards in
the world and also somebody needs to write the drivers for both the
Apple side and the 6809 side.
John's project has been ported to a number of inexpensive FPGA boards
including my personal favorite Altera DE1 ($150). That is probably the
easiest way to play with a configurable 6809 system short of a software
emulator. BTW I made an Apple 2 configuration for DE1 quite a while ago.
-Alex.
Egan Ford
Jun 1, 2012, 6:46:18 PM6/1/12
to
On 6/1/12 11:42 AM, Michael Black wrote:
> Other issues impact on the decline of newsgroups, but I've also seen
> instances of someone setting up a highly specific "yahoo group" for one
> very specific element of a larger field, and that does take that traffic
> away from the more general newsgroup. But the loss is greater than the
> loss of just those specific topic messages, the general newsgroup loses
> those people often, they don't participate in the larger group. And in
> one case I'm very much thinking of, a few years later the yahoo group is
> completely dead.
> Other issues impact on the decline of newsgroups, but I've also seen
> instances of someone setting up a highly specific "yahoo group" for one
> very specific element of a larger field, and that does take that traffic
> away from the more general newsgroup. But the loss is greater than the
> loss of just those specific topic messages, the general newsgroup loses
> those people often, they don't participate in the larger group. And in
> one case I'm very much thinking of, a few years later the yahoo group is
Yep, that has been a trending problem for a while and not limited to
Yahoo. E.g. I frequent this group as well as applefritter. Given the
relative small size of retro communities it would be nice to have it
centralized.
Egan Ford
Jun 1, 2012, 6:56:12 PM6/1/12
to
On 6/1/12 3:09 PM, Alex Freed wrote:
> If 10 people
> wanted a clone of the Stellation Mill card, I could make the boards
> using real 6809E CPUs available from Jameco.
Yes. Count me in.
> If 10 people
> wanted a clone of the Stellation Mill card, I could make the boards
> using real 6809E CPUs available from Jameco.
Bill Garber
Jun 1, 2012, 8:43:42 PM6/1/12
to
"Egan Ford" <data...@gmail.com> wrote in
message news:jqbhac$71h$1...@news.xmission.com...
consider making some, but if you're planning
to do so, then I'll back out. Also, be sure
to make the OS/9 daughterboards, or incorporate
it into the main board. :-)
Yes, I said two, one to use and one for my vast
collection. My Eprom Programmer collection for
many platforms is growing. If anyone has one to
sell, please, let me know. < 8-bit only >
Thanks,
SEPA Electronics
http://www.sepa-electronics.com
Bill Garber
Steven Hirsch
Jun 2, 2012, 9:20:38 AM6/2/12
to
On 06/01/2012 05:09 PM, Alex Freed wrote:
> If 10 people wanted a clone of
> the Stellation Mill card, I could make the boards using real 6809E CPUs
> available from Jameco.
Alex,
> If 10 people wanted a clone of
> the Stellation Mill card, I could make the boards using real 6809E CPUs
> available from Jameco.
I would be interested in one of these. It would also be a good idea to clone
the MMU piggyback that permitted the card to run OS-9. I have some clear
front and back photos of the piggyback that would make reverse-engineering a
snap. Let me know if you want them.
Steve
Sean Fahey
Jun 2, 2012, 1:06:10 PM6/2/12
to
On Friday, June 1, 2012 4:09:34 PM UTC-5, Alex Freed wrote:
> If 10 people
> wanted a clone of the Stellation Mill card, I could make the boards
> using real 6809E CPUs available from Jameco.
I'd be down for 2 of those. I think you have 10 or so now. ;)
> If 10 people
> wanted a clone of the Stellation Mill card, I could make the boards
> using real 6809E CPUs available from Jameco.
Alex Freed
Jun 2, 2012, 3:05:24 PM6/2/12
to
Wouldn't hurt to see a picture. I saw info on the address translation
for os9.
-------
With the daughterboard switch enabled, the OS/9 mapping is:
6809 6502
0xxx 1xxx
... ...
Axxx Bxxx
Bxxx Dxxx L/C
Cxxx Exxx L/C
Dxxx Fxxx L/C
Exxx Cxxx I/O space
Fxxx 0xxx ZP+stack+text
-----------
What this doesn't tell is how the A15 inversion fits into this picture.
My guess would be that the soft switch still inverts A15 but is not used
with OS9.
Clearly the address translation should be done with a GAL in the 21
century. Originally I thought that 74LS259 would be impossible to find
and a CPLD should replace it along with some glue logic. Well,
apparently the same Jameco (which happens to be a couple of miles from
where I live) still stocks them! So the lazy approach will be to just
duplicate the original design plus the address translation minus the
never used EPROM.
A2CPM
Jun 3, 2012, 7:43:25 PM6/3/12
to
Hi, y'all!
Join the Yahoo! Apple6809 group and learn how to buy 6809EP CPU
chips for $0.89.
Willi
Join the Yahoo! Apple6809 group and learn how to buy 6809EP CPU
chips for $0.89.
Willi
A2CPM
Jun 9, 2012, 12:23:56 PM6/9/12
to
Hi, y'all!
On Jun 1, 5:09 pm, Alex wrote:
<--- snip --->
You probably do not want to clone revision A of the Mill card.
Just tested my rev. A Mill in a variety of Apple ][ models and found
that it will only work in an unenhanced IIe, or earlier. Also,
replacing the 6809 with a 6809E will result in a Mill that will not
allow a II+ to boot. Finally, the "DEMO1" program that displays an
updating counter on the screen is the ONLY program I have that works.
The "ASM09" program, a 6809 assembler, either won't assemble a source
file or fills the screen with garbage, depending on how you respond to
the prompts given by the assembler.
Willi
On Jun 1, 5:09 pm, Alex wrote:
<--- snip --->
> Clearly the emulated 6809 could be slowed down by a factor of 25 and
> share the memory with Apple 2 ... not very exciting IMHO. If 10 people
> wanted a clone of the Stellation Mill card, I could make the boards
> using real 6809E CPUs available from Jameco.
<--- snip --->
> share the memory with Apple 2 ... not very exciting IMHO. If 10 people
> wanted a clone of the Stellation Mill card, I could make the boards
> using real 6809E CPUs available from Jameco.
You probably do not want to clone revision A of the Mill card.
Just tested my rev. A Mill in a variety of Apple ][ models and found
that it will only work in an unenhanced IIe, or earlier. Also,
replacing the 6809 with a 6809E will result in a Mill that will not
allow a II+ to boot. Finally, the "DEMO1" program that displays an
updating counter on the screen is the ONLY program I have that works.
The "ASM09" program, a 6809 assembler, either won't assemble a source
file or fills the screen with garbage, depending on how you respond to
the prompts given by the assembler.
Willi
Alex Freed
Jun 9, 2012, 3:25:32 PM6/9/12
to
I'm not sure what makes rev 1 different - I never even saw an actual
Mill card and the schematics I have says rev "B".
BTW 6809E is very different from 6809. "E" stands for external clock and
is the part used in (at least rev "B") Mill.
I have ordered PCBs on the cheap from China so it will take a couple of
weeks till I can assemble a board. I gave up the idea of making an exact
replica - to have the address translation for System09 a CPLD is called
for and a lot more glue logic fits inside a CPLD. So I cut the number of
chips by half while adding the functionality of the daughter board.
The original address translator used a TTL PROM - slow, power hungry and
hard to get these days. One could use a PAL (or GAL) but a CPLD is
actually cheaper with a lot more functionality.
69ab...@gmail.com
Aug 7, 2013, 11:55:24 PM8/7/13
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