Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections

[europlus]

From my blog
<http://apple2.europlus.zone/community/jason-scott-puts-call-out-for-apple-ii-software-collections/>:

Are you, or someone you know, sitting on a horde of unpreserved Apple ][
software?

Jason Scott has put out the call for such collections which might still be
“in the wild”.

In his capacity as Software Collections Curator at the Internet Archive,
Jason has been instrumental in garnering preserved titles for that site and
making them playable, in-browser(!).

The summary in Jason’s post says:
"Conditions are very, very good right now for easy, top-quality, final
ingestion of original commercial Apple II Software and if you know people
sitting on a pile of it or even if you have a small handful of boxes,
please get in touch with me to arrange the disks to be imaged."

I don’t really need to add anything to what Jason has already said in that
summary, or in the detail Jason adds in his post – if you have (or know of)
such a collection, reach out to Jason to find out how you might be able to
preserve it.

Maybe we can get some disk preservation done at WOzFest PR#6 – with newer
versions of i’m fEDD up and Passport available (and other products in the
pipeline) it might be a good time to redouble our Apple ][ preservation
efforts!

Your only other job is to spread the word!

--
europlus
--
http://apple2.europlus.zone

[Ralph Glatt]

Just a little too late - my brother sold off my dream Apple// setup behind my back. (It was stored at my Mom's house, and I was living elsewhere.) I had an Apple //c+ with expanded memory, color composite monitor, 40 MB hard drive, Imagewriter //, mouse, and GEOS software. I suspect someone got it for a steal, because my brother thought that all Apple//'s are junk. It almost makes me cry to think about it, especially the hard drive.

[D Finnigan]

europlus wrote:
>
> Jason Scott has put out the call for such collections which might still be
> “in the wild”.
>
> In his capacity as Software Collections Curator at the Internet Archive,
> Jason has been instrumental in garnering preserved titles for that site
> and
> making them playable, in-browser(!).

Jason Scott likes to think that he's the center of the Universe and everyone
revolves around him and that nothing existed before him.

People like the administrator of Asimov FTP have done far more and for far
longer (about 2 decades now, IIRC) and his "software collection" wouldn't
exist without Asimov.


(Nor would mine at Mac GUI Vault, for that matter)

--
]DF$
The Marina IP stack for Apple II--
http://marina.a2hq.com/

[Zellyn]

On Wednesday, March 22, 2017 at 11:54:59 AM UTC-4, D Finnigan wrote:
> Jason Scott likes to think that he's the center of the Universe and everyone
> revolves around him and that nothing existed before him.

This seems uncharacteristically mean-spirited for this group. Many of us think preservation is important. In fact, reading Jason's call to action, he gives the credit to other people.

Zellyn

[Mark D. Overholser]

On 21-Mar-17 22:26, europlus wrote:
> From my blog
> <http://apple2.europlus.zone/community/jason-scott-puts-call-out-for-apple-ii-software-collections/>:
>
> Are you, or someone you know, sitting on a horde of unpreserved Apple ][
> software?
>
> Jason Scott has put out the call for such collections which might still be
> “in the wild”.
>

We need a Campaign Slogan like,

"Now is the Time, to Save the Future...."



MarkO

[Steve Nickolas]

On Wed, 22 Mar 2017, D Finnigan wrote:

> Jason Scott likes to think that he's the center of the Universe and
> everyone revolves around him and that nothing existed before him.

He has been involved in some important projects, but I think the vast
majority of the important work happens *despite* him.

> People like the administrator of Asimov FTP have done far more and for far
> longer (about 2 decades now, IIRC) and his "software collection" wouldn't
> exist without Asimov.

I was using Asimov as early as the late 1990s.

It might have a lot of *crap*, but that's because if you collect
everything, you're going to run into Sturgeon's Law.

The ones most currently responsible for preservation in the Apple ][
community are 4am, qkumba and LoGo. Jason Scott is, for the most part,
just a visible face.

-uso.

[gid...@sasktel.net]

I think that by now the future has pretty much been saved. What we really need is a really fast computer to sort through all the redundant junk that got saved with it.

[James Davis]

On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 10:26:29 PM UTC-7, europlus wrote:
>
> Are you, or someone you know, sitting on a horde of unpreserved Apple ][
> software?

YES! I AM!! And, I need to archive all I have for Humanity!!!

Is there anyone in the East S.F. Bay Area who can help me get some kind of Apple Disk Transfer going?

I still have everything "Apple II" I ever bought, except my original Apple II Plus. I still have two enhanced Apple IIe computers, my original and the one I bought incase I ever needed spare parts (never have). But, I have not used them in over 20 years. So, I have pretty much forgotten how.

Lately, I have been scanning "Apple II" related printed materials and uploading them to Asimov. I only discovered the existence of the Apple II internet, Asimov FTP, Apple II emulators, disk images, and CiderPress, last year. I would like to do the same with the hundreds of floppies I have, and my Sider. But all my slots are filled. I have no place for an SSC, except for in the spare IIe.

I figured out how to make the 16-pin game port into a 9-pin RS-232 serial port, electrically, where the Apple II is either a DTE (presented as another computer {same as the IBM 9-pin serial port}) or a DCE (presented like a MoDem), but it needs some kind of electronic buffering and driver software on the Apple II end. Is anyone interested in helping to develop this idea? It might also work with an RS-232 to USB adapter.

Does anybody have any information (Tech Manuals) about the "Advanced Logic Systems" "Advanced Serial Interface" Rev.1? Someone (Jim {last name forgotten}) gave me one a long time ago. It might substitute for an SSC.

Sincerely,

James Davis, Beagle Buddy #227

[James Davis]

Hi MarkO,

On Wednesday, March 22, 2017 at 9:54:24 AM UTC-7, Mark D. Overholser wrote:
>
> We need a Campaign Slogan like,
>
> "Now is the Time, to Save the Future...."

"Now is the Time, to Save the Future, by Preserving the Past!"

Or, is that too obvious?

James Davis

[Paul Guertin]

On Wed, 22 Mar 2017 15:52:02 -0000 (UTC), D Finnigan <dog...@macgui.com> wrote:

> People like the administrator of Asimov FTP have done far more and for far
> longer (about 2 decades now, IIRC) and his "software collection" wouldn't
> exist without Asimov.

Jason's project (asking people to mail him original disks, having
4AM crack the protected ones, and then putting the images online)
is great! The Asimov FTP site is great! Your Vault is great! It's
not a zero sum game. All such archiving efforts are worth supporting.

Paul Guertin

[John Brooks]

Hi James. I've done a lot of ADT transfers and can help. I'm in the south bay and will PM my contact info.

-JB
@JBrooksBSI

[qkumba]

> I think that by now the future has pretty much been saved.

Oh, but that's absolutely untrue. As we can see from 4am's collection, the number of "first-time preservations" continues to grow.

> What we really need is a really fast computer to sort through all the redundant junk that got saved with it.

Yes, and as Jason notes, the Internet Archive is working on exactly that.

[David Schmidt]

On 3/22/2017 9:04 PM, James Davis wrote:
> I figured out how to make the 16-pin game port into a 9-pin RS-232
> serial port, electrically, where the Apple II is either a DTE
> (presented as another computer {same as the IBM 9-pin serial port})
> or a DCE (presented like a MoDem), but it needs some kind of
> electronic buffering and driver software on the Apple II end. Is
> anyone interested in helping to develop this idea? It might also
> work with an RS-232 to USB adapter.

You might be interested in reading about Michael Mahon's NadaNet, a
network interface and protocol that runs through the game port:
http://michaeljmahon.com/NadaNet.html

> Does anybody have any information (Tech Manuals) about the "Advanced
> Logic Systems" "Advanced Serial Interface" Rev.1? Someone (Jim {last
> name forgotten}) gave me one a long time ago. It might substitute
> for an SSC.

I've not seen one myself. ADTPro (like ADT before it) relies on the
hardware interface to talk to the card, which is a stricter set of
criteria than the firmware interface is. Cards that advertised
themselves as "SSC compatible" generally meant at the firmware level,
which doesn't help in the case of disk transfers. It's easy enough to
tweak, though, if you do come across the technical information for your
card.

[Bill Buckels]

"James Davis" <JPD.Ent...@live.com> wrote:
>YES! I AM!! And, I need to archive all I have for Humanity!!!

Don't make a mountain out of a molehill :) Just go ahead and do it.

Get a Microdrive for your Apple //e or Apple IIgs... it is really trivial to
build a whack of disk images on a CF card then upload to your host machine
through your CF USB reader... using Ciderpress... no need for a bunch of
nuisance cabling like back in the 80's when sneaker net is so affordable and
simple.

It is also really trivial to transfer disk images using CF from the host and
then make real floppies from disk images on the Microdrive's CF volume.

I've had mine for almost a decade now... problem solved.

Regards,

Bill

[mver...@libero.it]

You forgot the poor unfortunate souls like me, with a //c ROM 0 (never open in 30+ years).

Serial cable continues to do his duty.

Marco

[Steve Nickolas]

On Thu, 23 Mar 2017, qkumba wrote:

>> I think that by now the future has pretty much been saved.
>
> Oh, but that's absolutely untrue. As we can see from 4am's collection,
> the number of "first-time preservations" continues to grow.

Quoted for truth.

If you look around you'll find that almost 15 years ago I was looking for
a program called "Juggles' Rainbow" that I remembered from when I was a
kid. It was nowhere to be found. Guess who found it and uploaded it?

4am.

Although not perfect, the first uploaded crack of MECC's "Word Wizards"
was mine. Other, different versions went up later, and I think one was
cracked by 4am.

I think the first complete crack of Bank Street Storybook - another
program I used the hell out of as a kid - was 4am's.

A lot of games only existed in defaced file cracks, until 4am and qkumba.

You'd be surprised how much is still there to be found.

-uso.

[gid...@sasktel.net]

Well, aren't you special deciphering what Jason is doing? I have been to his website, have you? and I don't see no organization.

There is nothing there to teach newcomers new to the Apple II, about the apple II or how to program the Apple II.

Compiling cracked games and allowing them to be played through a web browser isn't preserving.

I will admit it has its place in showing the next generation what was accomplished and graphics capabilities of the first home computers ever made. But preserving? That is not the word I would use in this instance.

If anything, making apple games playable through a web browser actually hurts the Apple II community because computer users don't get the hands on experience or the curiosity to learn to program to see how the programs were made.

All users will see is another game made playable on modern computers and with the use of modern joysticks.

Not impressed.

[Du Hast]

I think there is two different preservations. One for those who want the nostalgia and those that educate the future. The future one is the tough part because that's akin to setting up some sort of "museum" quality experience that can immerse you in the subject.

Asimov is great, but it's tough to find software, and in the instances of downloading for the first time you have no idea what you're getting. What would be great is some sort of Apple/Asimov specific site with descriptions and a screenshots, ratings, etc.

As to what's keeping the next generation away from the "real" experience. People thinking working //e systems are worth $500 on Ebay, but that's another topic.

[Steve Nickolas]

On Thu, 23 Mar 2017, Du Hast wrote:

> On Thursday, March 23, 2017 at 6:29:28 PM UTC-5, gid...@sasktel.net wrote:
>>
>> Well, aren't you special deciphering what Jason is doing? I have been
>> to his website, have you? and I don't see no organization.

It's mostly him and 4am, rather than Jason, doing the grunt work.

> I think there is two different preservations. One for those who want
> the nostalgia and those that educate the future. The future one is the
> tough part because that's akin to setting up some sort of "museum"
> quality experience that can immerse you in the subject.

I won't disagree, nor do I think they are mutually exclusive.

> Asimov is great, but it's tough to find software, and in the instances
> of downloading for the first time you have no idea what you're getting.
> What would be great is some sort of Apple/Asimov specific site with
> descriptions and a screenshots, ratings, etc.

Yeah, something like Gamebase 64 targetted to the Apple ][ would be nice.

We have, I think, something of the ilk for the GS, but not for the 8-bit
Apples.

> As to what's keeping the next generation away from the "real"
> experience. People thinking working //e systems are worth $500 on Ebay,
> but that's another topic.

QFT

-uso.

[Mark D. Overholser]

James;


That is the Logical continuation of my Statement... And the Whole
Concept if kind of Obvious..

But the Odds Say that the Longer we Wait to start the Recovery Process,
the Less Successful we will Be..

A lot of Disks have been maintaining their Data Integrity, but a few
brands Have Not...

The Time is Now!!!!!

MarkO

[ja...@textfiles.com]

Getting down into the mud as to my character and motivations and technique would be a waste of everyone's time, and I am a very busy fellow, as I'm sure some portion of you are.

I did want to address two salient points that seemed to rise from this discussion:

Steve Nickolas' statement that the important work happens *despite* me; I'd be chin-resting-in-hands fascinated to hear the second half of that stanza, because if there's something I need to do differently to get out of the way of important work, I'm fascinated and ready to hear.

The other is the belief stated that web-browser-based emulation in some way "hurts" the Apple II community, due to a (made-up) theory that a potential future Apple II user would be turned away from the actual hardware and contributions to anything Apple II because they were given the distilled click-once experience on the Archive and elsewhere and wouldn't ever "dig deeper".

I supposed I could just say "you're wrong", but I'll go a tad further.

My experience, perhaps not surprisingly, is the opposite; games and programs that are emulated on the archive live again in the minds of millions (literally millions, I have the logs) and people either play them quietly, or then go looking to learn more about what these programs are about and what machines were behind them.

I get nice letters from young people, mid to late teens and extending into far adulthood, about how much they enjoy learning about something that preceded them, or which they knew about vaguely but only now have the leisure or the opportunity to learn more about. It's the difference between a vague turn of phrase in the back of one's mind and a vivid and visual memory - giving folks near-instantaneous access to the software of a platform drives more fascination with that platform.

I've been told of real cases, written to me personally and posted generally, of using the web emulation to verify a fact, or describe play, or even do Twitch streams playing the old games and adding commentary. One of the brightest lights in this is Leigh Alexander, who is doing what are called "Lo-Fi Let's Plays" using the software on the Archive to talk about games and game experience:

https://www.youtube.com/user/leighalexander1/videos?sort=dd&view=0&shelf_id=1

So no, I'm going to have to call a party foul on that one; totally not true. Experiencing older technology and culture should not be a difficult, uphill climb punctuated with moments of bewilderment and frustration to ensure whoever goes through it is locked into some sort of Vintage Stockholm Syndrome.

Anyway, keep chatting, it's changing the world.

[Steve Nickolas]

On Fri, 24 Mar 2017, ja...@textfiles.com wrote:

> Steve Nickolas' statement that the important work happens *despite* me;
> I'd be chin-resting-in-hands fascinated to hear the second half of that
> stanza, because if there's something I need to do differently to get out
> of the way of important work, I'm fascinated and ready to hear.

That's not what I meant. I meant that it would go on the same with or
without you - archive.org vs. asimov.net makes no real difference to the
fact that a lot of the preservation work is done by others.

(Not to rule out the fewer but larger matters like the Prince of Persia
source release, but that's a different matter, being that the sources
weren't what was commercially released!)

It's not that you don't play an important part - I just feel 4am and
qkumba's role is the role which has been the most essential. (Disclosure:
I, too, have done a couple cracks of programs for the same purpose as 4am
and qkumba, though on a much smaller scale than they. There's a few other
preservationist crackers around here too.)

> The other is the belief stated that web-browser-based emulation in some
> way "hurts" the Apple II community, due to a (made-up) theory that a
> potential future Apple II user would be turned away from the actual
> hardware and contributions to anything Apple II because they were given
> the distilled click-once experience on the Archive and elsewhere and
> wouldn't ever "dig deeper".

I'm going to disagree with this assertion and say that it is my belief
that what hurts the Apple ][ community is the fact that too many people
seem to see dollar signs in it. Granted, there was always that wealthier
hacker contingent who cut their teeth on the Apple ][, but there was also
that contingent whose experience with the ][ was mostly in schools, and
with samizdat software, and who really didn't have that kind of money to
burn, and some of us still don't. It's always been kind-of hard for
someone like me, who has always been on a limited income, to be involved
with the Apple ][ line, although it was a large part of my life for many
years.

The cost of metal is obscene, and a lot of people who would like to be
involved are just priced out of the market. We relive our experiences
through emulation. And Apple ][ emulation has been more than good enough
for a long time now, so even though we may prefer metal, we can make do
quite well without it.

-uso.

[gid...@sasktel.net]

Wow! There really is a lot of me, me, me and I got this and that from my followers in your post, isn't there?

You pretty much just proved the only thing that already is noticed by everyone else.

You are a gaming website that gives gamers a chance to play the same game on different platforms and compare them. Did they learn anything about the Apple or any other platform they played a game on? I doubt it. Did they have a chance to relive a game or program that they once saw in school, or had while growing up? More than likely. Are you looking for attention? More than likely.

You took advantage of the browser platform to allow internet goers to play Apple games without leaving their browser. Good for you! Would you like a cookie?

The sarcastic side of me wants to treat you like an adult, but the calmer side of me usually prevails and is really amazed by your insecurity. How old are you anyway?

[Bill Buckels]

<ja...@textfiles.com> wrote:
> Anyway, keep chatting, it's changing the world.

On the plus side:

http://www.cultofmac.com/473081/archivist-seeks-preserve-every-apple-ii-program-ever-created/

Archivist seeks to preserve every Apple II program ever created
By David Pierini - 5:32 am, March 23, 2017

This article got 93 likes and loves in the Apple II Enthusiasts FaceBook
Group so far despite the fact that some of us chat over there too... and I
think the thing to remember in all of this (it's probably not much comfort
:) but... 10% of the people will always complain about something, no matter
how well we do what we set out to do... it's just a little harder when ones
family is included in the 10% who complains. (I have no real evidence that
10% complain... I just made that up :)

Regards,

Bill Buckels

[D Finnigan]

qkumba wrote:
>> I think that by now the future has pretty much been saved.
>
> Oh, but that's absolutely untrue. As we can see from 4am's collection,
> the
> number of "first-time preservations" continues to grow.
>

The wheat has already been harvested; what remains now are people running
around collecting the chaff.

All the important Apple II software, all the titles that were really
memorable and influential, have already been saved and preserved.

[D Finnigan]

Du Hast wrote:
>
> As to what's keeping the next generation away from the "real" experience.
> People thinking working //e systems are worth $500 on Ebay, but that's
> another topic.

I started a thread on Usenet on this very subject over a year ago and I was
very dismayed to see a general reaction of "so what/who cares?"

The emulators are no substitute. There are some better than others, but in
general, they all suck.

[D Finnigan]

gids.rs wrote:
>
> You took advantage of the browser platform to allow internet goers to play
> Apple games without leaving their browser. Good for you! Would you like
> a
> cookie?

Which, by the way, already existed on Bill Marten's virtualapple.org site,
using the Free Tools Association's browser plugin.

[D Finnigan]

Bill Buckels wrote:
> <ja...@textfiles.com> wrote:
>> Anyway, keep chatting, it's changing the world.
>
> On the plus side:
>
> http://www.cultofmac.com/473081/archivist-seeks-preserve-every-apple-ii-program-ever-created/
>
> Archivist seeks to preserve every Apple II program ever created
> By David Pierini - 5:32 am, March 23, 2017
>
> This article got 93 likes and loves in the Apple II Enthusiasts FaceBook
> Group so far despite the fact that some of us chat over there too... and I
>
> think the thing to remember in all of this (it's probably not much comfort
>
> :) but... 10% of the people will always complain about something, no
> matter

If so many people care more only for copying old things, than creating new
things, is the platform now dead?

Is it now dead like the ancient cultures of Egypt, Rome, or South America?
Where we just read and study and copy the old texts and artifacts? All the

important Apple II software, all the titles that were really memorable and
influential, have already been saved and preserved.

Or do people latch on to the preservation craze because they have a hoarding
impulse or because copying disks takes less brainpower and is a fairly
passive activity? (Note here: I get the impression that 4am and the other
crackers are in it more for the fun & challenge of cracking, and I have
enjoyed reading the walkthroughs that he writes.)

My Apple II is alive! And I wrote a book (and price it inexpensively to get
it in the hands of as many people as I can) to get as many new and returning
people as I can to the Apple II.

[Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev']

On Saturday, March 25, 2017 at 2:43:36 PM UTC-7, D Finnigan wrote:
> Or do people latch on to the preservation craze because they have a hoarding
> impulse or because copying disks takes less brainpower and is a fairly
> passive activity? (Note here: I get the impression that 4am and the other
> crackers are in it more for the fun & challenge of cracking, and I have
> enjoyed reading the walkthroughs that he writes.)

I can't speak of everyone but learning to "crack" games was one of the reasons I even got into programming in the first place.

I've finally finished a MASSIVE write-up for one of my favorite programs.
Along the way I've discovered a few easter eggs. (Hush Nick. :-)
I expect to be making a thread/post shortly about my "first" Apple "crack."
(I've cracked quite a few x86 games -- but never an Apple 2 game because they had already been done.)

I have almost finished buying my set of original Br0derbund games. There is usually 1 easter egg in every software title waiting to be discovered. i.e. I've discovered one in Gumball that _isn't_ known (to my knowledge.)

I'm _still_ trying to track down an original of Captain Goodnight BTW.
Or at least a nibble dump. :-)

[Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev']

On Saturday, March 25, 2017 at 6:33:32 AM UTC-7, Bill Buckels wrote:
> On the plus side:
>
> http://www.cultofmac.com/473081/archivist-seeks-preserve-every-apple-ii-program-ever-created/

Sadly,
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_apple

is _still_ missing:

* Empire III: Armageddon

Yes, it is a crappy RPG game. It still needs to be preserved. :-)

Now if only we can find an original by someone who isn't an asshat-hoarder-that-doesn't-share such as this wanker:

* http://yois.if-legends.org/vault.php

[Tom Porter]

I think all the major stuff has been archived (there are exceptions, and we will find them with time)... but i'd be more focused of acquiring all the little things people have done since the late 90's till now... there is a ton of 'homebrew' games and software people have made but exist only on their own websites or in small pockets in places that people thought it was neat or unique. I personally have two games that I would love to be put into the archives, and I'm sure authors who would have had the same possibility to have them added to a major archive would also as well.

[Du Hast]

Well should we start a new thread? What's really driving it? I haven't done the Ebay research but are people getting these prices? I've been personally looking for a basic //e system to do some gameport experiments with because I don't want to fry my "good" system and it's a been real challenge. $300 or $400 plus shipping is ridiculous.

[Hugh Hood]

On 3/22/2017 8:04 PM, James Davis wrote:

>
> Does anybody have any information (Tech Manuals) about the "Advanced
> Logic Systems" "Advanced Serial Interface" Rev.1? Someone (Jim {last
> name forgotten}) gave me one a long time ago. It might substitute
> for an SSC.
>

Jim,

Based on this picture
<http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/eJIAAOSw5cNYk4~O/s-l1600.jpg>, it appears
that the card used the 6850P serial chip, rather than the 6551 ACIA that
the Super Serial Card did.

Other than that picture, I really couldn't find anything else about it
on the 'net.

It seems that SSM and also CCS had serial cards that used the 6850 as
well, as I remember having them years ago driving serial NEC Spinwriters
before I standardized on the Apple SSC for everything.

So, I'm pretty sure that ADTPro (which uses the SSC/6551 hardware
registers rather than firmware to communicate at 115,200 baud) won't
currently support it.

David Schmidt knows for sure as ADTPro is his baby.





Hugh Hood

[Bill Buckels]

"D Finnigan" <dog...@macgui.com> wrote:
> If so many people care more only for copying old things, than creating new
> things, is the platform now dead?

(You've mentioned this before I think..)

No, but your lament is similar to mine... too few people actually do
something new, and just follow the old ways is mine... (I also love MS-DOS
as much as I ever loved CP/M, DOS 3.3 and ProDOS 8, and certainly more than
anything else Apple ever did... just to be ornery and put an edge on my
mission :)

> Or do people latch on to the preservation craze because they have a
> hoarding impulse or because copying disks takes less brainpower and is a
> fairly passive activity?

The latter of course :) But hey, they want to belong to something
attainable... as much as I want everyone to write Apple II graphics programs
in C on a Windows Computer....

Evangelically,

Bill

[Steve Nickolas]

On Sat, 25 Mar 2017, Bill Buckels wrote:

> "D Finnigan" <dog...@macgui.com> wrote:
>> If so many people care more only for copying old things, than creating new
>> things, is the platform now dead?
>
> (You've mentioned this before I think..)
>
> No, but your lament is similar to mine... too few people actually do
> something new, and just follow the old ways is mine... (I also love MS-DOS
> as much as I ever loved CP/M, DOS 3.3 and ProDOS 8, and certainly more than
> anything else Apple ever did... just to be ornery and put an edge on my
> mission :)

I swing both ways, Apple and PC (though I must say, MS-DOS is a much more
hackable environment than any modern OS :P)

I always lament my lack of skill, but I've made several unsuccessful
attempts to make new ports of games I enjoyed to old systems.

>> Or do people latch on to the preservation craze because they have a
>> hoarding impulse or because copying disks takes less brainpower and is a
>> fairly passive activity?
>
> The latter of course :) But hey, they want to belong to something
> attainable... as much as I want everyone to write Apple II graphics programs
> in C on a Windows Computer....

Speaking of writing Apple ][ programs in C, if we were to have a source
tree that, in theory, could be used to build Commander Keen 4 on MS-DOS -
and that's C mixed with 8088 ASM - I wonder if we could get it onto the
GS using the most similar graphics mode, the 320x200x16 mode. ;)

-uso.

[Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev']

> but I've made several unsuccessful attempts to make new ports of games I enjoyed to old systems.

Which games?

[Steve Nickolas]

Arkanoid 2 and a bunch of old Namco games (Galaga and Bosconian
especially). The closest I ever really got as a kindasorta functional
Arkanoid port in QuickBasic, which was like the third time I had tried to
do it.

-uso.

[Michael J. Mahon]

Don't worry--Apple II development continues, both hardware and software.
Only now it's for love and not for money (since the market is relatively
small).

Preservation of the past is important, too--they're not mutually exclusive.
But the past was BIG, so preservation is a megaproject that needs all the
marketing and support that the community can muster.

Still, there's plenty of interest in developing for the Apple II, and
developers' average age isn't growing by a year per year. ;-)

--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com

[Nick Westgate]

On Sunday, 26 March 2017 10:18:24 UTC+13, D Finnigan wrote:

> qkumba wrote:
> > Oh, but that's absolutely untrue. As we can see from 4am's collection,
> > the number of "first-time preservations" continues to grow.
>
> The wheat has already been harvested; what remains now are people running
> around collecting the chaff.
>
> All the important Apple II software, all the titles that were really
> memorable and influential, have already been saved and preserved.

The most memorable recent counterexample to your assertion is Lady Tut, which was only preserved in full thanks to the efforts of qkumba and a number of other stalwart preservationists.

Cheers,
Nick.

[Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev']

Thanks for the list.

I was hoping they would have overlapped with some of my favorite games as I have plans to fully reverse engineer about 3 apple games -- that is provide a assembly source that recreates them 100% kind of like how fans have reverse engineered Super MarionBros.

Oh well.

Still Arkanoid 2 would be fun to disassemble. :)

[N.N. Thayer]

Hmm. This thread took a few turns that I wasn't expecting.

"Jason's project (asking people to mail him original disks, having 4AM crack the protected ones, and then putting the images online) is great! The Asimov FTP site is great! Your Vault is great! It's not a zero sum game. All such archiving efforts are worth supporting." -PG

This, a thousand times this. Shared goals should be enough reason for archival efforts to exist in harmony. The comparative "worth" of those efforts, competitive streaks, personal ego - those things don't, or shouldn't, have a place in that universe. Nobody does this for glory. Despite having contributed to Asimov repeatedly over the years, I've never been quite clear on who the administrator is, and I'm certain they don't give two poops whether I do know. Their work has the same result as Jason Scott and Tony Diaz helping Jordan Mechner to save the Prince of Persia source code: bits and bytes given the (hopeful) immortality of the Internet.

"I think there is two different preservations. One for those who want the nostalgia and those that educate the future. The future one is the tough part because that's akin to setting up some sort of 'museum' quality experience that can immerse you in the subject." -DH

Agreed 100%. A similar sentiment was behind a rather clumsy post I made awhile back regarding where folks looking to get into the Apple II were going to head online in the future (csa2 vs. more mainstream forums vs. Facebook/social media). Preservation is itself a dynamic and evolving thing, taking into account changes in archiving methods, in the way the public consumes information, heck, in how the Apple II itself fits into the overall historical picture, as that picture expands endlessly. The two arms of preservation that you describe are both shaped by that evolution; I only wish I could see what they will look like beyond my years.

Consider the fact that the total set of functional Apple II hardware is only going to shrink over time. Looking far, far, FAR ahead, generations and generations ahead, how will that fact enter into things, especially if prices keep increasing in step with perceived rarity and capitalist tendencies? We all lament the $500 //e's - but if one assumes that they're only going to get worse, then the question becomes: how will preservation efforts adapt in the face of it?

"All the important Apple II software, all the titles that were really memorable and influential, have already been saved and preserved." -DF

This is, I think, a dangerous assertion to make, not least because "importance" is a subjective thing. It wasn't too long ago that Cap'n Crunch's EasyWriter, the first word processor for the Apple II, was posted to Asimov - and his particular version of the Forth language is, I believe, still outstanding. Moreover, preservation is, by definition, an all-encompassing endeavor. Is Cap'n Crunch's Forth not as deserving of server space as, say, an uncracked copy of The Oregon Trail?

"Wow! There really is a lot of me, me, me and I got this and that from my followers in your post, isn't there?" -GR

My read of JS's post couldn't have been more different. His whole point was to articulate the process of reaching into the past and bringing it to the forefront of modern minds: the second arm of what DH described. The Archive was mentioned for its instrumentality in that process.

I posted hundreds of original images to Asimov before life interfered too much for me to keep that effort going; I've also contributed a few things to the Mac GUI Vault and to Gene Buckle's CP/M archive, and I will say this: the act of contributing to any preservation effort is inherently *humbling*. No matter how much you do, there's more... always more. And that's before one starts wondering just how permanent one's work really is, or what form people will be experiencing the Apple II through centuries from now - assuming they are at all. In my estimation, sheer volume of material preserved, together with forward thinking about how to get that material into the public consciousness, are the best guarantees against the assaults of time's passage.

"Or do people latch on to the preservation craze because they have a hoarding impulse or because copying disks takes less brainpower and is a fairly passive activity?" -DF

This strikes me as a rather cynical question. Honestly, does it matter why? If the end result is that more material is preserved, then how is it constructive or relevant to speculate about the motivations of the people behind it? Isn't it enough that we simply appreciate their efforts?

[Oliver Schmidt]

Hi,

>All the important Apple II software, all the titles that were really
>memorable and influential, have already been saved and preserved.

I'm wondering if I'm totally missing the point or if there's another
reason why nobody mentioned so far that...

The "classic" crack moves the program from a copy-protected floppy to
a standard 16-sector floppy that can be sector-copied with every disk
backup tool.

However this means that the program is still tied to a 140kB floppy.
Especially if you prefer a real Apple ][ over emulation that's a big
issue as Disk II drives are by far the piece of hardware failing most
likely - and even advanced Flash-based Disk II emulations (like i.e.
the CFFA 3000) are pretty easily pushed to their limits of Disk II
compatiblity.

In contrast the "new" crack moves the program to ProDOS file(s). That
_REALLY_ means freedom. The program runs from any ProDOS block device.
And creating a new Flash-based ProODS block device is almost trivial.
And I have not even started talking about (new) options for network
file access...

At least to me personally that makes all the difference!

Regards,
Oliver

[Steve Nickolas]

There's not too many of those yet, but I'd like to say I was the
impetus... xD

And in fact, that's *why* I felt it was important to make ProDOS versions
of games. Because ProDOS didn't tie you to the 5.25" drive. These custom
DOSes, like DOS 3.3, relied on RWTS, and as such wouldn't work with
anything else.

-uso.

[ja...@textfiles.com]

On Sunday, March 26, 2017 at 5:00:17 PM UTC-4, N.N. Thayer wrote:
> Hmm. This thread took a few turns that I wasn't expecting.

Conversely, it has taken all the turns I expected it to.

[Steve Nickolas]

On Sun, 26 Mar 2017, Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev' wrote:

> Thanks for the list.
>
> I was hoping they would have overlapped with some of my favorite games
> as I have plans to fully reverse engineer about 3 apple games -- that is
> provide a assembly source that recreates them 100% kind of like how fans
> have reverse engineered Super MarionBros.

Maybe some do, and I haven't mentioned. XD It's not impossible.

For the record, I'd like to see the original Final Fantasy on an Apple
platform, because it would be a sort of "full circle trip" - the
programmer was probably best known for his work on the Apple ][ before he
went on to code a few games for Square in the 80s and 90s. It was
probably an unusual situation - a Western coder on a Japanese game series.

-uso.

[gid...@sasktel.net]

Instead of making silly comments like this, prove us wrong. It is this talking down to people, that you do that really brings out your arrogance and makes it shine and makes it look like you are trying to be the center of attention.

Name one thing that you have created yourself and shared with the apple community that you might be known for, (not counting your multi-platform website) instead of making it look like you are trying to put yourself up on a pedestal and that everyone or even anyone should be coming to you.


To N.N Thayer, I admire your attempt to be civil, but it is people that think like you that just stand by and don't want to get involved or try to be neutral in conflicts is usually the reason control goes to the wrong people. What do you think would have happened if the US stayed neutral in the WW II. You cannot negotiate with extremism.

It is also Trump's neutral stance with Russia that is getting him in hot water with his country when everyone can see Russia is trying to claim back its territories by praying on peoples weakness of not wanting any conflict or wanting to be neutral.

And there is one really big flaw in your ideology of preservation. Someone getting a well known painting (or putting out a call to receive paintings) and telling people they can come see it on his website or at his home is not the same as having that same painting in an art gallery.

If you want to help, then teach Jason how to be part of a community. But I don't believe Jason created his website to be part of a community. I believe he did it because it helps him become diverse. And diversity is what draws people and attention to himself.

But I have learned to trust my instincts, and my instincts say to not send any apple related software directly to Jason until it is backed up somewhere else first.

[Steve Nickolas]

On Sun, 26 Mar 2017, gid...@sasktel.net wrote:

> It is also Trump's neutral stance with Russia that is getting him in hot
> water with his country when everyone can see Russia is trying to claim
> back its territories by praying on peoples weakness of not wanting any
> conflict or wanting to be neutral.

Neutral? I could call it a number of things, but when he's practically
got his head up Vlad's rectum, "neutral" is not one of them.

-uso.

[gid...@sasktel.net]

On Sunday, March 26, 2017 at 8:47:20 PM UTC-6, Steve Nickolas wrote:

:0)
That was a quick reply. Hardly pressed the POST button and already got a POST reply alert.

Touched a nerve, did I?

Nothing initiates a response quite like a political comparison.

[awanderin]

It's easy enough to upload anything to asimov, and voilà, it is now on a
major archive site.

--
Jerry awanderin at gmail dot com

[ja...@textfiles.com]

On Sunday, March 26, 2017 at 10:30:53 PM UTC-4, gid...@sasktel.net wrote:
>
> Instead of making silly comments like this, prove us wrong. It is this talking down to people, that you do that really brings out your arrogance and makes it shine and makes it look like you are trying to be the center of attention.
>
> Name one thing that you have created yourself and shared with the apple community that you might be known for, (not counting your multi-platform website) instead of making it look like you are trying to put yourself up on a pedestal and that everyone or even anyone should be coming to you.
>

On the suggestion of, no joke, a dozen people who have written, DM'd and called me not to waste my time with you, well..

[Bill Buckels]

<ja...@textfiles.com> wrote:
>On the suggestion of, no joke, a dozen people who have written, DM'd and
>called me not to waste my time with you, well..

Yet you waste your time? I don't think Rob will change his mind.

You really don't need everyone's blessing Jason. The rest of us never get
everyone's blessing, so don't worry about it...

Bill

[gid...@sasktel.net]

There's that suggestion that you have worshippers with their heads up your rectum again. Why don't you do us all a favor and stay in your own little world. You obviously have nothing to contribute here.

[D Finnigan]

Du Hast wrote:
> On Saturday, March 25, 2017 at 4:21:12 PM UTC-5, D Finnigan wrote:
>> Du Hast wrote:
>> >
>> > As to what's keeping the next generation away from the "real"
>> > experience.
>> > People thinking working //e systems are worth $500 on Ebay, but that's
>> > another topic.
>>
>> I started a thread on Usenet on this very subject over a year ago and I
>> was
>> very dismayed to see a general reaction of "so what/who cares?"
>>
>> The emulators are no substitute. There are some better than others, but
>> in
>> general, they all suck.

Let me clarify this opinion by saying that it stems from:
1.) Limited availability of peripheral cards in emulators
2.) Bugs in emulation

>>
>> --
>> ]DF$
>> The Marina IP stack for Apple II--
>> http://marina.a2hq.com/
>
> Well should we start a new thread? What's really driving it?

Reading between the lines, I sensed an attitude of "we already have all the
great hardware that we want, all the good stuff, so we don't need to buy
any."

Also, "Because we have all this stuff that's going up and up in price, we
can cash out and make a bundle."

I am, very fortunately, in this first camp (have all the stuff) due to
inheriting my collection from family and friends, but I don't share the
second viewpoint. I'd like to see more newbies come and increase
participation in the Apple II hobby.

> I haven't
> done the Ebay research but are people getting these prices?

It does look that way, especially when you browse by "Sold listings" under
Advanced search. Earlier this year, someone on Applefritter (I want to say
MarkO...?) listed a bunch of Apple IIe systems with starting bids around
$50.

If we as a community wanted to drive down prices on eBay, WE COULD DO IT.
There are people in the community sitting on literally stacks of Apple IIgs
and IIe systems that they keep for spare parts, etc. A group of people could
flood the market and drive down prices.

[D Finnigan]

Michael J. Mahon wrote:
>
> Don't worry--Apple II development continues, both hardware and software.
> Only now it's for love and not for money (since the market is relatively
> small).
>

[...]

>
> Still, there's plenty of interest in developing for the Apple II, and
> developers' average age isn't growing by a year per year. ;-)
>

I acknowledge that. Time spent copying old disks is time that could be spent
instead on making new things. I'd like to see more of that with our limited
man-power.

In other news, I wrote a new blog entry on making the single-wire shift key
mod:
http://macgui.com/blogs/?e=482

[Steve Nickolas]

On Thu, 30 Mar 2017, D Finnigan wrote:

> Time spent copying old disks is time that could be spent instead on
> making new things. I'd like to see more of that with our limited
> man-power.

I won't disagree.

I'm not a good programmer, but I could certainly see a few classic games
that would run nicely on the ][ or IIgs that aren't there. ;) (Galaga and
Bosconian on the former, and Commander Keen 4 on the latter, come to
mind.)

-uso.

[Michael J. Mahon]

D Finnigan <dog...@macgui.com> wrote:
> Michael J. Mahon wrote:
>>
>> Don't worry--Apple II development continues, both hardware and software.
>> Only now it's for love and not for money (since the market is relatively
>> small).
>>
> [...]
>>
>> Still, there's plenty of interest in developing for the Apple II, and
>> developers' average age isn't growing by a year per year. ;-)
>>
>
> I acknowledge that. Time spent copying old disks is time that could be spent
> instead on making new things. I'd like to see more of that with our limited
> man-power.

I think you'll find relatively little overlap between disk capturers and
developers, so they're not really competing for the same people's
attention.

[N.N. Thayer]

Is either group really competing for attention? Don't we do what we do - whether it's development or archival or something else - for its own sake? Or for the sake of the Apple II?

[D Finnigan]

N.N. Thayer wrote:
> On Thursday, March 30, 2017 at 9:41:46 PM UTC-4, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
>> D Finnigan <dog...@macgui.com> wrote:
>> > Michael J. Mahon wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Don't worry--Apple II development continues, both hardware and
>> >> software.
>> >> Only now it's for love and not for money (since the market is
>> >> relatively
>> >> small).
>> >>
>> > [...]
>> >>
>> >> Still, there's plenty of interest in developing for the Apple II, and
>> >> developers' average age isn't growing by a year per year. ;-)
>> >>
>> >
>> > I acknowledge that. Time spent copying old disks is time that could be
>> > spent
>> > instead on making new things. I'd like to see more of that with our
>> > limited
>> > man-power.
>>
>> I think you'll find relatively little overlap between disk capturers and
>> developers, so they're not really competing for the same people's
>> attention.
>>
>> --
>> -michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
>
> Is either group really competing for attention?

Well that's the point of my very first followup to this thread...

> Don't we do what we do -
> whether it's development or archival or something else - for its own sake?
>
> Or for the sake of the Apple II?

Sure, and my opinion is that new development, new things, does more good for
Apple II as a hobby platform, but not everyone agrees on that viewpoint, so
hum-ho. There it is.

[Michael J. Mahon]

I meant that the two kinds of activity do not typically compete for the
attention of the person doing them. The activities do not compete.

Ambiguous antecedent!

[Michael Black]

I thought the original statement was obvious, "some people develop, other
people break copy protection and/or archive".

Michael

[Antoine Vignau]

On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 6:37:24 PM UTC+2, Michael Black wrote:
> I thought the original statement was obvious, "some people develop, other
> people break copy protection and/or archive".
>
> Michael

Some (at least, me) do both. But I can confirm that when you focus on one, the other has less attention. This is where finding the correct threshold is important.

Antoine

[Steve Nickolas]

On Fri, 31 Mar 2017, D Finnigan wrote:

> Sure, and my opinion is that new development, new things, does more good for
> Apple II as a hobby platform, but not everyone agrees on that viewpoint, so
> hum-ho. There it is.

I don't disagree. I get the feeling that some people want to treat the
Apple ][ as a museum piece, eternally frozen in time, but I'd rather see
it pushed to the edge like other 8-bitters.

-uso.