Briel Computing

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mojoehand

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Jun 13, 2010, 6:50:30 PM6/13/10
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I want to relate a recent experience with Briel and see if this is
typical. An order was placed online with Briel on 29 May. Of course,
the 31st was a holiday. I was notified that the order finally shipped
yesterday. Not counting the holiday, this makes 12 days before the
order was shipped.

I don't know about the rest of you, but this seems like much too long
to take to ship an order. What makes this even more irksome is the
fact that Briel charges almost $9 for shipping. This is almost twice
what it costs to ship a small package via Priority Mail. BTW, it was a
RAM card w/o the RAM, so it could easily go Priority Mail for $4.95,
or even less First Class.

I received no emails stating that the shippment would be delayed. Is
this type of lax customer service typical of Briel, or did I just get
unlucky?

Sheppy

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Jun 13, 2010, 8:05:49 PM6/13/10
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It's important to keep in mind that those of us still trying to
support the Apple II do so in our spare time, and real-life demands
often cause delays in handling order processing. For example, right
now I'm over a month behind on order processing because my day job has
me on a rush of work, my daughter has summer camps going on (plus
birthday events), my wife has Girl Scouting obligations affecting my
schedule, and my parents were just in town visiting for a week.

I hope to get a lot of orders shipped the next few days, but you see
the point.

Please be patient with us! Speaking for myself, I do the best I can,
and I'm sure Vince does too!

Sheppy

schmidtd

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Jun 13, 2010, 8:08:23 PM6/13/10
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On Jun 13, 6:50 pm, mojoehand <mojoeh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I want to relate a recent experience with Briel and see if this is
> typical. An order was placed online with Briel on 29 May. Of course,
> the 31st was a holiday. I was notified that the order finally shipped
> yesterday. Not counting the holiday, this makes 12 days before the
> order was shipped.

I have ordered a 4meg GS board from Vince on two occasions. 12 days
would probably seem like a while to me too; how soon we've forgotten
the old "please allow 4 to 6 weeks for delivery" in the internet
age! ;-)

> [...] Briel charges almost $9 for shipping. This is almost twice


> what it costs to ship a small package via Priority Mail.

I think of it this way: if I'm sending something to a buddy, or doing
a favor for someone, then "as much as the post office charges" makes
sense. If this is a business outfit, where they have to pay for
bubble wrap, packing peanuts, static-sensitive envelopes, gas to the
post office, and the like - then $5 over and above what it costs to
stamp it makes sense to me. If it's not a favor or charity, then
somebody has to pay for those things. Businesses have costs to be
recovered.

> I received no emails stating that the shippment would be delayed. Is
> this type of lax customer service typical of Briel, or did I just get
> unlucky?

In my experience (sample size of 2, remember) you just got unlucky.
On the other hand - you got a nice piece of hardware that's awfully
hard to source for less money than you paid, and this one is brand
spankin' new.

Bill Garber

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Jun 13, 2010, 7:18:26 PM6/13/10
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"mojoehand" <mojo...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:3aeeca2a-
d06a-43d8-847...@v29g2000prb.googlegroups.com...

It's actually typical of hobby based online sales. I've heard of it being
faster, and slower, so, uh, I'd chalk it up to, "Hey!, I'm getting it." 8^)

Bill


sfahey

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Jun 13, 2010, 9:40:52 PM6/13/10
to mojoehand
To: mojoehand
Re: Briel Computing
By: mojoehand to comp.sys.apple2 on Sun Jun 13 2010 03:50 pm

> I want to relate a recent experience with Briel and see if this is
> typical. An order was placed online with Briel on 29 May. Of course,
> the 31st was a holiday. I was notified that the order finally shipped
> yesterday. Not counting the holiday, this makes 12 days before the
> order was shipped.

I've ordered from Vince several times and I've never had a problem, and the
orders were always filled in a timely fashion.

I know he's trying to get his Altair project out the door (it's going to be
-very- popular) so he might be backlogged.

It's also summer -- when all our developers and programmers venture out into
the sunlight.

Sean Fahey
www.a2central.com
bbs.a2central.com

Ken Gagne

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Jun 13, 2010, 10:24:15 PM6/13/10
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On Jun 13, 6:50 pm, mojoehand wrote:

> I received no emails stating that the shippment would be delayed. Is
> this type of lax customer service typical of Briel, or did I just get
> unlucky?

Twelve days can be a long time to wait to receive an upgrade to your
favorite computer, but we need to appreciate that there are still
folks shipping anything for the Apple II. Last I heard from Vince, he
was quite busy with the day job. I'm sure he'd rather it didn't get
in the way of his hobby and passion and that he could fulfill all
orders quickly!

To be clear, your concern is valid -- but it does need to be
considered in context. In the last 15 years, I've had two occasions
in the Apple II community where it took more than two YEARS for an
order to ship. One of those orders is still outstanding. I'd be
delighted to instead have had the experience you did!

I hope the RAM card proves worth the wait.

-Ken

Mike Spurgeon

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Jun 13, 2010, 9:38:37 PM6/13/10
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You protest too much. You got a good product for a good price and in
good time.

You think he's got lots of employees falling all over themselves to take
care of just you?

Where do you think you would get it cheaper or faster?

Dutch

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Jun 13, 2010, 11:31:26 PM6/13/10
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> Where do you think you would get it cheaper or faster?

Very true.

Give Vince a break. He's got a life and a job outside of the
community just like the rest of us. In the age of instant
gratification, everyone seems to expect everything right away, but
it's just not the case in our hobby.

You'll be happy when you get it.

-Dutch

mojoehand

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Jun 14, 2010, 2:53:39 AM6/14/10
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To the majority of you who provided polite and informative comments,
thank you. I did not know that the company was a one man operation.
That helps to explain the delay. As for the other commenters...

Eric Rucker

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Jun 14, 2010, 9:28:29 AM6/14/10
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One thing that I think would help is if those operating Apple II
stores emphasized on their checkout pages that their stores are
hobbies, that they have day jobs, and while they'll make their best
effort to ship items quickly, sometimes things happen, and life gets
in the way, and to allow plenty of time for shipment. (Also,
communication isn't a bad thing - if there's been a delay, let your
customers know at certain periods.)

As has been said, almost everyone in the Apple II market nowadays is a
one-man operation, making stuff for fun, sometimes not even for
profit, and certainly not as a full-time job. Patience goes a long
way, but I've had good luck with who I've dealt with. (I haven't dealt
with Briel, though.)

Michael J. Mahon

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Jun 14, 2010, 11:59:23 PM6/14/10
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-Dutch

This is all very true, but it is important to manage expectations. A
note on the web site or a two-line email would prevent any
misunderstanding.

-michael - NadaNet 3.1: http://home.comcast.net/~mjmahon

djon...@gmail.com

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Jul 30, 2014, 12:22:14 PM7/30/14
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I'm glad I ran into this thread. I didn't realize he was a one man shop and was wondering why it was taking a while to ship. It's a good thing I'm usually a patient type.

gid...@sasktel.net

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Jul 30, 2014, 4:04:01 PM7/30/14
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I just have one argument against everything you just said here, Sheppy.

You might have been too busy with the actual mailing of the product itself, but I will bet dollars to donuts that you took 5 minutes during that busy time and came to these forums and read a few posts.

Even if you were to get hundreds of emails every day, it is easy enough to sort through the ones where someone has made a purchase and give them a polite reply to the effect "Sorry for the delay, your product will be shipped shortly".

Everyone keeps saying how this is just a hobby, and be patient he has a real life outside this virtual one, he might be in the hospital (I believe Vince was at Kfest so this excuse can not be used) and how ... yadda yadda yadda.

But the fact of the matter is, it only takes less than 2 minutes to send an email saying "we haven't forgotten you", plus it will probably relieve a little stress taking your mind off of real life, plus it will create far less stress for all involved down the road, plus a happy customer is a repeat customer, plus, here's the big one "YOU TOOK THEIR MONEY".

So Sorry! I don't buy the whole 'Be Patient' thing. Being patient can actually hurt you. If you pay by PayPal, you only get 60 days from the time you sent the money to file a grievance. You are only a month behind, Sheppy, which is still well within an acceptable time limit.

I would recommend on day 57, 58 or 59 after making the payment through PayPal, if you still have not received your product, then at the very least, you should be filing a grievance. This does nothing more at the moment than opening a line of communication if all your emails are being ignored and going unanswered.

Then, if after another month of trying to contact the seller and all attempts at communication are ignored (this will make it 3 months now and still have not received a product, which is more than enough time) this makes your case with PayPal to refund your money. But hearing stories of people waiting for 1 year and 2 years for a product, in hopes of still receiving it, is unacceptable. The seller should have offered to refund the money long before that and explained the delay or even if they were getting any more product in themselves, or politely ask the buyer to re-submit another purchase order.

The way I see it is, too many sellers are not treating this as a hobby and trying to be a part of this cool community. Instead, they are treating it as a business, holding on to your money for long periods, and forcing you to complain and fight to get it back, at no loss to them.

I just relayed here how one can protect themselves, if they are not receiving their product within a timely manner. There really should be no need to come to these forums every time a seller is delayed in mailing a product.

And, hopefully, the seller does not hold a grudge if a grievance was made against him. After all, this is "Just the Cost of doing Business".

Now I will wait and read all the angry retorts to this post and my slightly different and deranged way of thinking.

Rob

D Finnigan

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Jul 30, 2014, 4:26:09 PM7/30/14
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I think the solution is pretty simple:

If you, as a seller, can't ship your products in a timely manner, then DON'T
TAKE ON NEW ORDERS. Close your shop, get ALL of your existing orders
shipped, then start taking orders again.

If this is truly "just a hobby" then there should be no problem with this
solution.

--
]DF$
Apple II Book: http://macgui.com/newa2guide/
Usenet: http://macgui.com/usenet/ <-- get posts by email!
Apple II Web & Blog hosting: http://a2hq.com/

Sean Fahey

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Jul 31, 2014, 9:14:11 AM7/31/14
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On Wednesday, July 30, 2014 3:04:01 PM UTC-5, gid...@sasktel.net wrote:

> Now I will wait and read all the angry retorts to this post and my slightly different and deranged way of thinking.


Nah, seems completely fair and reasonable to me.

djon...@gmail.com

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Jul 31, 2014, 12:40:55 PM7/31/14
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Good food for thought. So far, I'm only about a month out. Waiting a year or more does seem like a bit much, especially if there was little to no communication.

David

Message has been deleted

Sheppy

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Jul 31, 2014, 1:02:42 PM7/31/14
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On 2014-07-30 20:04:01 +0000, gid...@sasktel.net said:

> You might have been too busy with the actual mailing of the product
> itself, but I will bet dollars to donuts that you took 5 minutes during
> that busy time and came to these forums and read a few posts.
>
> Even if you were to get hundreds of emails every day, it is easy enough
> to sort through the ones where someone has made a purchase and give
> them a polite reply to the effect "Sorry for the delay, your product
> will be shipped shortly".

As it turns out, sometimes that's not how it works. You're so busy that
you think "OK, I'll answer that one tomorrow because I need to check
inventory" or "I hope to have time to get that shipped tonight so I'll
wait until tomorrow to reply just to have the most up to date
information".

And then the next thing you know, it's been two months.

Happened to me all the time; it's why I got out of the business of
selling physical products -- I don't have the discipline or time to
deal with all the customer service work.

--

Eric Shepherd (Sheppy)
http://www.sheppyware.net
Twitter: http://twitter.com/sheppy

Sheppy

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Jul 31, 2014, 1:03:08 PM7/31/14
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On 2014-07-31 16:46:06 +0000, TommyGoog said:

> "I just have one argument against everything you just said 4 years ago."

LOL :)

bpi...@gmail.com

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Jul 31, 2014, 1:27:09 PM7/31/14
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I think you're way too hard on yourself Sheppy. I purchased from you multiple times back when you managed syndicomm and although delayed, you communicated well and responded to emails. That all changed after you left and as I understand it, some people have waited YEARS and have heard nothing.

Scott Alfter

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Jul 31, 2014, 2:37:32 PM7/31/14
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In article <2014073113030846198-sheppy@sheppywarenet>,
Sheppy <she...@sheppyware.net> wrote:
>On 2014-07-31 16:46:06 +0000, TommyGoog said:
>
>> "I just have one argument against everything you just said 4 years ago."
>
>LOL :)

What's with all of the necro posting lately? Four years is nothing...over
in csa2.marketplace a few days ago, someone inquired about the status of a
Nibble collection that was offered for sale in 1998.

_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( http://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

Christopher G. Mason

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Jul 31, 2014, 3:32:17 PM7/31/14
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On 7/31/2014 1:27 PM, bpi...@gmail.com wrote:
> I think you're way too hard on yourself Sheppy. I purchased from you multiple times back when you managed syndicomm and although delayed, you communicated well and responded to emails. That all changed after you left and as I understand it, some people have waited YEARS and have heard nothing.
>

Speaking of, did anyone approach Tony during KFest and ask what was up
with the year old delays?

Steve Nickolas

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Jul 31, 2014, 5:26:31 PM7/31/14
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Scott Alfter wrote:
> What's with all of the necro posting lately? Four years is nothing...over
> in csa2.marketplace a few days ago, someone inquired about the status of a
> Nibble collection that was offered for sale in 1998.

The other day I saw thread necromancy on comp.os.cpm of a thread last posted
in 1995.

-uso.

Sean Fahey

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Jul 31, 2014, 6:27:25 PM7/31/14
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On Thursday, July 31, 2014 1:37:32 PM UTC-5, Scott Alfter wrote:

> What's with all of the necro posting lately? Four years is nothing...over

BRRAAAAINNNNSSS... er, I mean BIIIITTSSS...

CC Rider

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Jul 31, 2014, 8:53:54 PM7/31/14
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> Speaking of, did anyone approach Tony during KFest and ask what was up

My sense is that no one had the cojones to corner him.
He is one of the untouchables, a computer artist - and you know about those fine arts types. Basically unreliable.

"It's a hobby"
"He has a real job"
"More important things to do"
"Just be grateful for his past contributions"

ad nauseum, ad infinitum

Frankly, the whole sordid episode about Tony is galling. The "scene", including the big names and big egos were only too happy to pile on Conrad after the Transwarp GS debacle. Don't expect them to eat one of their own however. Not gonna happen. They will go along to get along with "his highness".

Bile.

Clay

Mark Frischknecht

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Jul 31, 2014, 9:52:54 PM7/31/14
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Mebby one of you offended types should have gone to kfest and asked?

CC Rider

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Jul 31, 2014, 11:03:15 PM7/31/14
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On Thursday, July 31, 2014 5:52:54 PM UTC-8, Mark Frischknecht wrote:
> Mebby one of you offended types should have gone to kfest and asked?

The mere fact that regular attendees are NOT offended should be offensive.

Mark Frischknecht

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Jul 31, 2014, 11:13:17 PM7/31/14
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All i see is a small subset just whining on usenet.. You people have
his contact information but seem not to know how to contact him or file
complaints to the BBB etc.. If you really cared you would find a way to
resolve it instead of whining in the wings.

osg...@cheesefactory.us

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Jul 31, 2014, 11:36:30 PM7/31/14
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oh gawd where's my popcorn

btw that whining kept me from buying anything from him, and squelched any thoughts of attending Kfest, so it does spread, even to relative noobs like myself (noob in the sense that I started lurking round here in 2009)

CC Rider

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Aug 1, 2014, 2:16:18 AM8/1/14
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"his contact information"? You absolutely nailed it. The sad truth is that he doesn't respond (knock, knock). EVER. He's merrily chasing a rabbit down a hole somewhere.

I'm torqued because the supposed pillars of the Apple II community give Tony Diaz a free pass every time the topic is mentioned. Support your favorite shyster!

Winge, not whine.

Is there butter on that popcorn?

Kirk Mitchell

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Aug 1, 2014, 9:17:43 AM8/1/14
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CC,

You overestimate the influence Tonys friends have over his business practices and customer service. This is a 4 yr old thread and you can see how well "talking to him about it" has worked, evidently. I don't know if it's even changed in that time.

If it makes you feel better, even some "pillars" gripe about his correspondence skills. I doubt it will. You have a broad brush in hand, and in your apparent frustration, are willing to splash it on anyone with any connections to Tony.

If talking to your credit card company, or the BBB hasn't helped (assuming you've even tried those options), then you are wise to not shop there. Tony is a genius Apple II savant, but not a good mail order businessman.

Free pass? Nah. But I won't be picking up any of the flaming torches you're handing out to join you in a witch hunt. He's a friend.

Kirk

CC Rider

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Aug 1, 2014, 12:09:55 PM8/1/14
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> You overestimate the influence Tonys friends have over his business practices and customer service. This is a 4 yr old thread and you can see how well "talking to him about it" has worked, evidently. I don't know if it's even changed in that time.

> If it makes you feel better, even some "pillars" gripe about his correspondence skills. I doubt it will. You have a broad brush in hand, and in your apparent frustration, are willing to splash it on anyone with any connections to Tony.
>

Well stated. No disagreement. Thank you.

Clay

Egan Ford

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Aug 1, 2014, 1:01:51 PM8/1/14
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On 7/31/14, 12:37 PM, Scott Alfter wrote:
> necro posting

This thread was worth reading just for those two words.

osgeld

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Aug 2, 2014, 1:00:54 AM8/2/14
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>>This is a 4 yr old thread

and yet this is the 5th thread I have read bitching about the same thing in the last 3 years

so yea its necro, but still totally relevant and modern, the only reason you dont see more of it, is cause of threads like these scaring people away from what seems to be a scam artist (which is the reason for my not ever again thinking about attending KFEST, what? am I going to buy a ticket and get it a year later without the decency of a 10 second f-you email? screw that lol)

geoff body

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Aug 2, 2014, 11:20:08 AM8/2/14
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I find it interesting that these posts keep getting rehashed.
They start by someone commenting on purchasing/ordering a product and waiting long periods for delivery. In this case posting to a 4 years old thread.
While this threads direction has changed from one vendor to another, there are very public cases for serious grievances on what should be considered non-delivery.
Have these instances been resolved?
I can't say, as it's unknown to myself, as neither party appears to have commented.
While these threads are very public and people will continue putting their strong views or attacks out there, it makes me wonder if it is still happening?
Are people posting comments based on their own situation, or are people just assuming it has happen previously and hasn't changed, whether the situation has improved or not.


GeoffB

Eric Rucker

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Aug 2, 2014, 6:19:35 PM8/2/14
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On Saturday, August 2, 2014 1:00:54 AM UTC-4, osgeld wrote:
> so yea its necro, but still totally relevant and modern, the only reason you dont see more of it, is cause of threads like these scaring people away from what seems to be a scam artist (which is the reason for my not ever again thinking about attending KFEST, what? am I going to buy a ticket and get it a year later without the decency of a 10 second f-you email? screw that lol)

It's worth noting that KFest registration usually goes off without a hitch (as long as you use PayPal, anyway, rather than mailing a check, but I don't think that one was Tony's fault, I suspect it was a USPS error or something). You fill out the form online, pay, and that takes care of the registration. Then, there's no ticket, you just check in at the RA desk (if you're staying in the dorms) to get your room key and swipe card, and by Wednesday (the second day of the event), the shirts, namebadges, and packets are usually available.

However, I do agree that Tony has serious problems with shipping goods in a timely manner, for whatever reason. I basically only buy parts from him if I'm willing to wait until KFest to get them, or there's no other reasonable source for those parts. I'm quite sure that there's zero malice behind Tony's shipping performance, but frankly, he does have a problem, and I'm quite fine with admitting that. Tony does quite a lot for the Apple II community, but either he's stretching himself too thin, or he's just not cut out to run a business.

Oh, and regarding it still happening... I still haven't received an AppleWorks 3 disk that I ordered from Tony (I don't actually care, as my goal was just to pay the appropriate license fees, at which point I found a pirate copy that was suitable for my requirements at the time).

djon...@gmail.com

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Aug 5, 2014, 2:29:51 PM8/5/14
to
Well since it's my fault that this thread has been brought back from the dead, I'll comment some more. I ordered something from Briel Computers back on 6/25. Never got an confirmation email of the order. So I emailed them asking if they got it. Did receive a response to that. Then nothing since. But I'm only about 5 weeks out and we've had the holidays, kfest during that time. So we'll see what happens. I'm new to this vintage computer stuff so I don't know if this is normal or not. I'm sort of excited to get back into it since my first computer was an 1802 ELF back in the 70's followed by a Kim-1 then OSI Superboard.

David

mister.c.lott

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Aug 6, 2014, 10:34:15 PM8/6/14
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This happens because of new old guys like me who're coming into csa from
Google Groups and who don't pay attention to how old the postings are,
thinking that if they're displayed by Google they must be relatively
recent...

We learn eventually :)

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---

CBC0...@nifty.com

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Sep 4, 2014, 4:41:28 PM9/4/14
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This is horrible.
STILL the same nothing has chaned ever

Chau_G...@yahoo.com

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Apr 6, 2015, 5:22:12 PM4/6/15
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I bought an Altair from Briel computers in June 2014 and still haven't received the product. I had a few email exchanges with Vince since that time in which he said he was caught up with kfest then later moving and would send out immediately. Both times, nothing sent and then he stops responding to email. Why not refund people when you can't deliver? I'm going to continue to hound him on email. I heard some people were starting to revive orders.

Anyone have a tip for how I can get my order or get in touch with Vince? Thanks.

David Jones

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Apr 7, 2015, 9:26:30 AM4/7/15
to
On Monday, April 6, 2015 at 5:22:12 PM UTC-4, Chau_G...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I bought an Altair from Briel computers in June 2014 and still haven't received the product. I had a few email exchanges with Vince since that time in which he said he was caught up with kfest then later moving and would send out immediately. Both times, nothing sent and then he stops responding to email. Why not refund people when you can't deliver? I'm going to continue to hound him on email. I heard some people were starting to revive orders.
>
> Anyone have a tip for how I can get my order or get in touch with Vince? Thanks.

Have you tried the his message boards? Or contacting him through it? He does take a while to ship things. I ordered two kits about that same time it took 8 months to get them.

http://www.brielcomputers.com/phpBB3/

Tom Porter

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Apr 7, 2015, 11:08:41 AM4/7/15
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Well, I'm going to mention something here. In another area of 'computing' that I frequent, there is a well known developer that has released games/accessories and has/had a fairly decent reputation. He promised a release of 250 of his games, and made the announcement back in 2011... although it was not clear if it was totally finished back then. He took preorders for that many. He continued his business and sold other games/accessories since, but has not released this 'game' en-mass yet. A few have been seen in the public, but only a handful. Over 200 of these (bought and paid for between 2011-2013 have not been delivered as of yet...). I'd say any delivery that takes only a couple of weeks is minor in comparison, most of us are still waiting!

SuperNewbie

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Apr 7, 2015, 11:23:50 AM4/7/15
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> that takes only a couple of weeks is minor in comparison, most of us are st
> ill waiting!

Is an image of it on asimov?

awanderin

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Apr 9, 2015, 12:00:49 AM4/9/15
to
It's unfortunate that this seems to keep happening, with different
"vendors". I haven't ordered anything from any of them, and I'd be
leery about doing so.

I think if I ever considered it, I'd do something like ask the vendor
beforehand what the expected shipping time is. If it was greater than
the Paypal dispute time (or whatever payment method), I would probably
abandon the idea of ordering. Otherwise, I'd proceed with the order,
and if it didn't come in the expected time-frame, I'd use the payment
intermediary to refund me, or at least put some pressure on the seller.
I don't get these vendors who don't communicate and don't ship. It's
plain bad for the reputation.

--
Jerry awanderin at gmail dot com

Chau_G...@yahoo.com

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Jun 1, 2015, 8:41:22 PM6/1/15
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I requested to be added to his forums, but my request was never approved. So at this point I just keep sending emails without a response.

David Jones

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Jun 2, 2015, 9:16:08 AM6/2/15
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On Monday, June 1, 2015 at 8:41:22 PM UTC-4, Chau_G...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I requested to be added to his forums, but my request was never approved. So at this point I just keep sending emails without a response.


He will eventually get around to approving it and shipping your order. You Just have to be very patient. I know this is hard to do when waiting for your new toy.

oldjo...@gmail.com

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Jun 2, 2015, 11:19:50 AM6/2/15
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If people want to take peoples money and then have unreasonable delays and/or non-delivery of product they should use Kickstarter like everyone else. :-)

Michael Black

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Jun 2, 2015, 1:26:36 PM6/2/15
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The only good thing about Kickstarter is that if they dont' get enough
money to go through, the money isnt' actually taken. Or something like
that. So it's a conditional thing, only if they get enough people does
your "investment" go through, as opposed to a more traditional fundraising
method where they just hope to reach a target (but that fundraising may be
a more vague target).

But I've read that some projects that get enough money have problems
coming to fruition.

Michael

David Jones

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Jun 2, 2015, 4:19:34 PM6/2/15
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True, I backed a 3d printer campaign and it went belly up. All the backers lost their money. Well other than a handful than managed to get a box of parts. Long story but check out Phoeix 3d. The worst part was they were using our money to build printers to ship to retail customers and blew off the backers.

oldjo...@gmail.com

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Jun 2, 2015, 4:51:16 PM6/2/15
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On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 1:26:36 PM UTC-4, Michael Black wrote:
Good point. The thing I'm getting at is that Kickstarter is an investment it's not a store. Sometimes investments payoff, sometimes they don't. However when someone sells something I expect that they've figured out some things about capacity/supply/scaling etc. So if people don't want to think about those things then they are better off telling people that they are gambling. Which is sort of what Kickstarter does IMHO.

mwillegal

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Jun 3, 2015, 6:14:49 PM6/3/15
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As far as I can tell, kickstarter is a store that pretends to be an investment vehicle. In the end, at best, your "investment" only returns a product, not a profit.


regards,
Mike Willegal

Michael Black

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Jun 3, 2015, 8:28:06 PM6/3/15
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On Wed, 3 Jun 2015, mwillegal wrote:

> As far as I can tell, kickstarter is a store that pretends to be an
> investment vehicle. In the end, at best, your "investment" only returns
> a product, not a profit.
>
>
There does seem to be that aspect to it. Maybe not completely, but since
it's about a specific product, there doesn't seem to be much to keep a
company in business other than that specific product. It does seem about
limited production runs, get the money upfront, and then build. I'd
prefer to see it having longer lasting appeal, which of course requires
products that are not specialty items.

On the other hand, the guy who couldn't get his boards off the boat (or
whatever that problem was), he got the funding ahead of time (but without
Kickstarter I think), then stalled in the delivery. It is one thing to
build a board yourself for your own use, and make something that not only
can be produced in quantity, but all the other things that go with that
shift to a business.

Michael

Alexander K

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Jun 5, 2015, 10:23:18 AM6/5/15
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On Jun 2, 2015, David Jones wrote
(in article<4fb8b10d-c8e9-4ab3...@googlegroups.com>):
I have often viewed kickstarter as patronage, its not really an investment
since if the company wildly succeeds you don’t really get anything
additional out of it (other than your backer rewards). Increasingly many kick
starter projects are simply to gauge public interested such that the
“creators” can garner real investment from publishers, venture
capitalists, retailers, etc…. Your not going to produce x product or y game
for 250K. You’ve got some deals on the back end with investors, well if you
can get 5,000 to back this project we’ll invest 500k, etc… I’m
struggling with this new kickstarter economy. I’m happy to kickstart
something like this dice vault

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/754081504/the-dice-vault-a-handcrafted-
wooden-case-for-gamin

where its a small outfit, have a product, just need some upfront funding to
produce and ship it. I’m less excited to suddenly be paying for the
privilege of being market research. This is what publishers, manufactures,
designers, etc.. used to pay buko bucks to do. You used to get paid (or at
least get free product) to be market research, now people are ponying up
sometimes thousands of dollars just to be market research. No thanks. A few
years ago I was more free flowing with my kickstarter backings but now it has
to be something special to get me to bite.

-alex-

--
"...he will be successful who directs his actions according to the spirit of
the times, and that he whose actions do not accord with the times will not be
successful."
-- Niccolo Machiavelli, The Prince

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