Need IIe, IIgs MIDI software
Mitch Monger
card, but no software. When I brought it home from the
thrift store I found the Passport Designs Mastertracks
Pro and Polywriter manuals, but no disks. Bummer.
I'm also getting interested in firing up one of my
IIgs's and taking advantage of its Ensoniq chip. I've
downloaded System 6.0.1 and synthLAB, but would also
like to get the IIgs version of Mastertracks Pro. Any
other good music software would also be appreciated.
There is very little info on the Net about Apple II
MIDI software. Finding IIgs MIDI software is difficult,
but finding MIDI software for the II is downright
impossible. I've searched and searched. It's just not
there. But it does exist.
I would greatly appreciate it if someone could email it
to me. I'm pretty broke right now, but I may be able to
trade something for it.
Thank you,
Mitch
SpamsuckaSmellysocks AT y a h o o . c o m
please take off the Smellysocks to reply
aiia...@gmail.com
Michael J. Mahon
>lots of IIgs MIDI softwares.
I note that //e MIDI software is harder to find...
-michael
Perform music on your Apple //e (or later)!
http://members.aol.com/mjmahon/RTSynth.html
Martin Doherty
>
> I note that //e MIDI software is harder to find...
>
> -michael
>
> Perform music on your Apple //e (or later)!
> http://members.aol.com/mjmahon/RTSynth.html
>
Hi Michael,
I just tried out RT.SYNTH.DSK on AppleWin 1.12.3, and it sort of worked,
I could hear the voiced notes as I pressed keys but overlaying the sound
output was a background roar not unlike travelling in a small noisy jet
plane.
I know you're not too concerned with emulators, but was just curious
whether the result is different on the real thing?
If that white noise background is just an emulator artifact, then I'll
get to work transferring the disk image to a //e - my 4 year old
daughter will love it! She is always plonking away on any piano we
happen across. Have you tried it on a IIgs, any problems?
Thanks & regards,
Martin
Simon Williams
I can happily report that RT.SYNTH works _very well_ on a real IIe...
well worth transferring to disk!
-s
--
._____. SIMON WILLIAMS :::::::: LUDDITE ENTERPRISES UNLIMITED
|[LD8]! 8-BIT SOUND & FURY : APPLE ][ AUDIO & MUSIC RESOURCES
| (O) | +------- http://8bitsoundandfury.no-ip.info/ -------+
!__!__! 68K MAC SERVER DIRECTORY http://macintosh.luddite.ca/
Mitch Monger
Thanks Rich! Everything I need for my IIgs for the
foreseeable future is there. Here are the two best
links at the site that I've found:
http://apple2.org.za/gswv/a2zine/GS.WorldView/v2000/Aug/Sound/
http://www.whatisthe2gs.apple2.org.za/the_ring/application_pages/
I was going to buy an Ensoniq ESQ-1 synth. Then I
remembered the chips in my IIgs's. Far better for me to
poke around with a IIgs than to fork out $150 for an
ESQ-1. I think the ESQ-1 may have more sonic options,
but I have 3 IIgs's just sitting on the shelf, waiting
to be useful.
Mitch Monger
Hi Michael,
I'd been to your page before I went to sleep last
night. I tried some download links and they didn't
work. That is partially due to my Mozilla browser. I
gave up before I read about RT.SYNTH. I was pretty
tired. I downloaded RT.SYNTH today using the iCab
browser (Mac), which has an excellent download manager.
I couldn't download the mp3s no matter what I did.
From what I've read on your site about RT.SYNTH it
looks like a great accomplishment! I especially like
the fact that you can play more than two keys at a
time. Nice!
I get the feeling that it won't do MIDI in or out
through my Passport Designs MIDI Interface Card. Oh
well, it's amazing to me that you even got it to read
MIDI files at all. At least I can write a MIDI track
for RT.SYNTH, play it, and record it. Would it be
difficult to get RT.SYNTH to read MIDI from an outside
source?
I own an ALF synth card for the Apple II, which I
believe was be the first synthesizer for a personal
computer. I haven't used it yet, but it looks like
programming it to play music is laborious. Not as nice
as loading a MIDI file. I'm really looking forward to
firing the ALF up, and especially to using RT.SYNTH.
Michael J. Mahon
>I'd been to your page before I went to sleep last
>night. I tried some download links and they didn't
>work. That is partially due to my Mozilla browser. I
>gave up before I read about RT.SYNTH. I was pretty
>tired. I downloaded RT.SYNTH today using the iCab
>browser (Mac), which has an excellent download manager.
>I couldn't download the mp3s no matter what I did.
Curious, I haven't had any trouble with them on several
different computers, including Macs...
It's harder on a machine you can't "right-click" on,
although I understand that's being fixed. ;-)
> From what I've read on your site about RT.SYNTH it
>looks like a great accomplishment! I especially like
>the fact that you can play more than two keys at a
>time. Nice!
Of course, only the last struck key plays--it's still
single-voice--but it makes the keyboard action much
more "musical".
>I get the feeling that it won't do MIDI in or out
>through my Passport Designs MIDI Interface Card. Oh
>well, it's amazing to me that you even got it to read
>MIDI files at all. At least I can write a MIDI track
>for RT.SYNTH, play it, and record it. Would it be
>difficult to get RT.SYNTH to read MIDI from an outside
>source?
Actually, there aren't as many single-voice MIDI tracks
as you might think. ;-(
I haven't run any (solo) music on RT.Synth that was derived
from MIDI files, though MIDI.CONVERT (part of the CrateSynth
package) will certainly create (multi-voice) music files
from MIDI files. It would be pretty simple to write an
Applesoft program to extract a single "oscillator" stream
from the output of MIDI.CONVERT, and it would be in the
same form as RT.SYNTH music.
The problem is that MIDI.CONVERT does not just convert a
single solo track, but converts all tracks, and dynamically
assigns oscillators, so a particular track is not all in
a single oscillator's "music" stream.
It could be modified to do that, but, as I noted, most MIDI
music has multi-voiced tracks, so it might not be as useful
as you would wish.
Controlling RT.SYNTH from an external MIDI source is an
interesting idea. It can be done, but would involve some
low-level MIDI card UART programming, since it would have
to be polled for status changes. Interrupts would be a
problem, since they would certainly be audible as pops.
RT.SYNTH was designed to work on ordinary Apple //e's, with
no hard-to-get adornments, so MIDI input was never a serious
contender. Think of it as a "performance" synth, not a
"player" synth--though it can play back its own performances.
>I own an ALF synth card for the Apple II, which I
>believe was be the first synthesizer for a personal
>computer. I haven't used it yet, but it looks like
>programming it to play music is laborious. Not as nice
>as loading a MIDI file. I'm really looking forward to
>firing the ALF up, and especially to using RT.SYNTH.
The ALF is a multiple-squarewave oscillator card, as is
the MockingBoard. Multiple voices are nice, but they are
all reedy squarewaves, a limitation not shared by RT.SYNTH.
The only Apple II add-in that supported wavetable synthesis
was the Mountain Music System, a 2-card extension that
provided 16 wavetable digital oscillators using DMA from
the Apple's memory.
-michael
Music synthesis for 8-bit Apple II's
http://members.aol.com.mjmahon
Michael J. Mahon
>I just tried out RT.SYNTH.DSK on AppleWin 1.12.3, and it sort of worked,
>I could hear the voiced notes as I pressed keys but overlaying the sound
>output was a background roar not unlike travelling in a small noisy jet
>plane.
AppleWin doesn't have the most subtle sound emulation. ;-)
Apple II Oasis sounds pretty good (sort of), but doesn't completely
emulate the n-key rollover keyboard.
Emulators are pretty hit and miss on how they deal with ultrasonic
pulse-width modulation. ;-)
>I know you're not too concerned with emulators, but was just curious
>whether the result is different on the real thing?
Much different, as Simon reports.
I'm happy to provide additional motivation for folks to run
real Apple II's. ;-)
>If that white noise background is just an emulator artifact, then I'll
>get to work transferring the disk image to a //e - my 4 year old
>daughter will love it! She is always plonking away on any piano we
>happen across. Have you tried it on a IIgs, any problems?
It works fine on a IIgs (at least in slow mode--I just realized that
I've never tried it in fast mode. ;-)
Of course, there are other options for the IIgs. Hasn't anyone
implemented an ensoniq-based synth supporting the IIgs keyboard
for piano-style playing?
-michael
Apple II real-time music synthesis
http://members.aol.com/mjmahon
Mitch Monger
Thanks for the wealth of info. It will be a couple of
weeks before I can put RT.Synth to use. Too many dire
things on the table now. I don't mind playing the IIe
live at all. The IIgs will be MIDIfied. That's good enough.
I have a Mountain Hardware Apple Clock. I'd gladly
trade it for one of the other Mountain Hardware cards ;)
In general, the Apple II community doesn't seem as
fired up about making music as the Commodore folks are.
The amount of energy going into working with the SID
chip is staggering. But what about the SID's grandson,
the Ensoniq ES 5503 which is in the IIgs? Something
tells me that it has potential which is far from being
tapped.
I'd very much like to build a MIDIbox SID:
http://www.ucapps.de/midibox_sid.html
The mp3s I've downloaded from that page are superb. The
mp3s I've heard so far of IIgs music are wonderful, but
of a lesser sonic quality. But isn't the Ensoniq ES
5503 a superior chip? It was designed by Bob Yannes,
who had previously created the SID 6581. One would
assume that he was taking a step forward and not back.
Maybe people just look at the Ensoniq synths which were
based on the 5503 and throw up their hands and think
"why bother, it's already been done." I'm not so sure
about that. The sounds coming out of todays SIDs are
comparable to what came out of the Ensoniqs synths. How
far could the 5503s go?
Michael J. Mahon
>Thanks for the wealth of info. It will be a couple of
>weeks before I can put RT.Synth to use. Too many dire
>things on the table now. I don't mind playing the IIe
>live at all. The IIgs will be MIDIfied. That's good enough.
You're very welcome.
The //e is quite MIDI-capable, too, and several sequencers
were written for it--they're just harder to find. They
had an even more limited market than the IIgs tools. ;-(
<snip>
>In general, the Apple II community doesn't seem as
>fired up about making music as the Commodore folks are.
>The amount of energy going into working with the SID
>chip is staggering. But what about the SID's grandson,
>the Ensoniq ES 5503 which is in the IIgs? Something
>tells me that it has potential which is far from being
>tapped.
I see this as a direct result of the differences in the
capabilities of the standard hardware configurations.
The SID chip in the C=64 was a very capable synthesizer--
much more advanced than the popular add-on AY-3-8910's for
the Apple II line--and _they_ were add-ons used by a small
percentage of the Apple II market!
For example, the SID and the '8910 both had three oscillators
and a noise source, but while the '8910 was limited to square
waves and simple envelopes, the SID could do triangle waves,
sawtooth waves, and variable-width pulses (including square
waves) and also had versatile envelope control and a highly
configurable filter on the output.
The one-bit speaker toggle was the only standard audio support
on the Apple II line until the IIgs, and its extreme simplicity
lowered developers'--and users'--aspirations substantially.
I've had fun pushing the standard 1-bit audio further than
the norm, but, of course, the time for stirring passions
has long passed.
There were much more capable add-ons created for the Apple II,
even early in its life--the Mountain Music System is a premier
example. But this was a very expensive add-on, and that made
it a "musician's tool", not a "popular" device. As a result,
its market was extremely limited, with the result that very
little (but excellent) software was written to exploit it.
This shows the critical importance of ubiquity in attracting
a "critical mass" of software support.
>I'd very much like to build a MIDIbox SID:
>
>http://www.ucapps.de/midibox_sid.html
>
>The mp3s I've downloaded from that page are superb. The
>mp3s I've heard so far of IIgs music are wonderful, but
>of a lesser sonic quality. But isn't the Ensoniq ES
>5503 a superior chip? It was designed by Bob Yannes,
>who had previously created the SID 6581. One would
>assume that he was taking a step forward and not back.
The Ensoniq chip is far superior, but the level of effort
put into harnessing it in the IIgs platform should be
regarded as near minimal. If serious electronic musicians
became sufficiently interested in the IIgs as a synthesizer
platform, great results are achievable.
>Maybe people just look at the Ensoniq synths which were
>based on the 5503 and throw up their hands and think
>"why bother, it's already been done." I'm not so sure
>about that. The sounds coming out of todays SIDs are
>comparable to what came out of the Ensoniqs synths. How
>far could the 5503s go?
I think your opinion is accurate. Unless someone gets
really interested in the IIgs and music, we may never know.
-michael
Real music synthesis for 8-bit Apples
http://members.aol.com/mjmahon
Ed Eastman
> really interested in the IIgs and music, we may never know.
>
> -michael
So what if I send YOU a IIgs and any audio software I have?
Thankx,
Ed
Michael J. Mahon
>So what if I send YOU a IIgs and any audio software I have?
;-)
As I've mentioned before, the IIgs is not my favorite machine.
Perhaps someone else would like to play? ;-)
Mitch Monger
Mitch Monger wrote:
<snip>
> The //e is quite MIDI-capable, too, and several sequencers
> were written for it--they're just harder to find.
The only one I've found is Passport Design's Master Tracks Pro. I
have a vague recollection that there was also one named Trax? I
finally got the a version of Master Tracks Pro from a IIgs
website, and I'm hoping it will be compatible with the IIe (one
can always hope).
> <snip>
> The SID chip in the C=64 was a very capable synthesizer--
I've read recently that the SID was put together in a severe time
crunch. It's truly a work of genius. I think the designer, Bob
Yannes was even surprised at how well it turned out. He had more
time when he made the 5503DOC, and was able to perfect it.
Correction: I've been calling this chip the ES 5503, but I think
it's better referred to as the 5503DOC (Digital Oscillator
Circuit), or just DOC. Ensoniq called it the "Q chip" because it
was in their Q line of synths, but it's actually more often
referred to as the DOC. This makes more sense in relation to the SID.
<snip>
> The one-bit speaker toggle was the only standard audio support
> on the Apple II line until the IIgs, and its extreme simplicity
> lowered developers'--and users'--aspirations substantially.
Except for yours Michael, and many people are very happy about
that. If only more people had the time or desire to do such things.
<snip>
> There were much more capable add-ons created for the Apple II,
> even early in its life--the Mountain Music System is a premier
> example. But this was a very expensive add-on, and that made
> it a "musician's tool", not a "popular" device. As a result,
> its market was extremely limited, with the result that very
> little (but excellent) software was written to exploit it.
Yes, Bob Yannes said something very revealing about that at:
http://www.synthmuseum.com/ensoniq/
"Unlike most of the American manufactures who had come before
them, Ensoniq did not go for the high-end market. We have always
courted the mass market in music. We know you could build
high-end equipment that's really superb and that you'd be able to
sell for a little while to a certain number of people, but sooner
or later someone's going to come along and stomp on you because
the technology will allow them to produce something that's almost
as good as what you've got for less. I think our going for the
larger market is more of a Japanese philosophy. There is no
significant longterm growth potential in high-market."
This is why Mountain Hardware Inc. is long long gone, and why
Ensoniq is still around as part of the E-mu/Ensoniq division of
Creative Technologies. Too bad Creative is in the red right now,
what with the costs of lawsuits with Apple, and the killer
competition from the iPod. Pretty ironic considering Ensoniq's
history with Apple.
<snip>
> The Ensoniq chip is far superior, but the level of effort
> put into harnessing it in the IIgs platform should be
> regarded as near minimal. If serious electronic musicians
> became sufficiently interested in the IIgs as a synthesizer
> platform, great results are achievable.
Well, I've heard it from the horses mouth! (sorry Michael, your
not really a horse :) All I can say is *YES!!!*
<snip>
>> The sounds coming out of todays SIDs are
>>comparable to what came out of the Ensoniqs synths. How
>>far could the 5503s go?
>
> I think your opinion is accurate. Unless someone gets
> really interested in the IIgs and music, we may never know.
Thanks. I'm glad my opinion was accurate. It's about time! Too
bad I can't program my way out of a paper bag yet. But I *can*
gather info for other people.
What I'd like to see is someone adapt a DOC chip to a MIDIbox.
The SID is a 28 pin chip and the DOC is 40 pin. There would
certainly be a bunch of soldering and programming involved, but
the rewards would be huge. The Apple chip would kick the
Commodore chip's butt! Ah, the rivalry! Remember the good ol'
days when you thought Microsoft was a drug for erectile
dysfunction? Um, well, it actually is, but that's beside the point.
I've found an excellent web page with info on the 5503DOC
(including pinouts):
http://www.buchty.net/ensoniq/5503.html
and on the main page of this impressive site:
http://www.buchty.net/ensoniq/
is an intriguing link to PDFs of a 1980s zine called "Transonique
Hacker," which is full of detailed info.
Here are the pinouts of the SID:
http://www.amiga-stuff.com/hardware/sid.html
And here again is the MIDIbox SID page, which is crammed with info:
http://www.ucapps.de/midibox_sid.html
-Mitch
Mitchell Spector
>Of course, there are other options for the IIgs. Hasn't anyone
>implemented an ensoniq-based synth supporting the IIgs keyboard
>for piano-style playing?
I can think of only one, and it wasn't even finished. It does let you
load in sound patches and play them on the IIgs keyboard mind you.
It was going to be called "TrackIt!" when finished. I inadvertently
posted it to this group 13 years ago instead of 'comp.binaries.apple2'
so it was archived in Google (you'll need BinScii or similar to decode it):
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.apple2/msg/f7ad7d729d0d1505?dmode=source&hl=en
Another interesting freeware program is "Super Synthetizer" (sic) by Luc
Serard of France. You use the mouse pointer to click on piano keys which
plays musical scales, one note at a time. It generates sound using Ensoniq
more as an analog-type synthesizer, with a lot of reverb/echo added, but
cool nonetheless (very 80's sounding!).
Then there's Poly-Sons 3.0 from Barbar de St. Cyr, also from France,
which is basically Super Syntetizer taken to the next level. You can use
the keyboard or mouse to play notes, and play with the waveform
envelopes and effect sliders to produce different sounds just like a real
synthesizer (again though, it's like an analog synthesizer, there are no
wavetable patches used). I guess that makes two, three if you count
using the mouse for input. :) If anyone is looking for these, let me know...
Mitchell Spector
Mitchell Spector
>In general, the Apple II community doesn't seem as
>fired up about making music as the Commodore folks are.
I'd certainly agree. Not just about music (which, as an Apple II user,
has always been a *huge* interest to me--from my II Plus to IIGS) but just
about writing any sort of software at all. When the mainstream companies
and programmers abandoned the Apple IIgs in the beginning of the 90's,
there was, for a brief time, a resurgence of interest in doing everything
possible to push the machine to its limits in graphics, animation and music.
Some of the best things came out between 1992 and 1995. Then it all
just seemed to stop...cold.
The past decade there's been really nothing happening, which is
disappointing when you consider there's been programming revivals
with many of the other now "dead" platforms (i.e. C64, Atari ST,
Atari, Amiga, even old game consoles).
>The amount of energy going into working with the SID
>chip is staggering. But what about the SID's grandson,
>the Ensoniq ES 5503 which is in the IIgs? Something
>tells me that it has potential which is far from being
>tapped.
Definitely untapped. There's always been huge potential in the
Ensoniq 5503 DOC, just very few people have figured out how to
use it to its fullest. The problem is just when things started to get
interesting for the machine (in terms of this new golden age of
programming) everyone just suddenly abandoned the machine.
Certain games like Zany Golf and The Immortal showed how
unique and ear-filling the chip was in the late 80's. I always
thought MIDIsynth (i.e. synthLAB in System 6) took the Ensoniq
to new levels, but apart from some demo songs Apple produced
(e.g. Midsummer.seq, Demo.seq, Capri.seq) a lot of the music
people composed for it was generic sounding. Very few people
every designed banks patches for it either--in fact I got tired of
waiting and put together one or two to get a decent sounding
piano and percussion.
There weren't too many really talented music composer around
the Apple IIgs scene either. There was the FTA, James Brooks,
Gene Koh, and late in the game, Dreamer (Ninjaforce). I may be
forgetting someone but that gives you an idea compared with the
number of musicians on the Amiga or C64 side.
>I'd very much like to build a MIDIbox SID:
>
>http://www.ucapps.de/midibox_sid.html
That makes two of us, I have six C64's sitting around and only
two work (I know the SID's inside are fine though). :)
>The mp3s I've downloaded from that page are superb. The
>mp3s I've heard so far of IIgs music are wonderful, but
>of a lesser sonic quality. But isn't the Ensoniq ES
>5503 a superior chip? It was designed by Bob Yannes,
>who had previously created the SID 6581. One would
>assume that he was taking a step forward and not back.
The Ensoniq DOC is superior, by far. It can do everything the
SID can do (potentially, with programming) and much more.
It has unlimited waveform capability and 32 oscillators.
A good example is some programming done by Jimmy Huey. In
his commercial port of California Games for the IIGS he perfectly
mimicked the SID chip for music and sound effects (maybe with a
bit of reverb thrown in), and his ProDOS ALF Player turns the
Ensoniq into an AY-8910 (used by the Mockingboard sound card).
If you want to have a listen how flexible the Ensoniq is:
http://www.virtualapple.com/californiagamesgsdisk.html
>Maybe people just look at the Ensoniq synths which were
>based on the 5503 and throw up their hands and think
>"why bother, it's already been done." I'm not so sure
>about that. The sounds coming out of todays SIDs are
>comparable to what came out of the Ensoniqs synths. How
>far could the 5503s go?
I suppose one reason is the 5503 was mainly geared for wavetable
synthesis (much like now forgotten PC sound cards like the Gravis
Ultrasound or SoundBlaster AWE32), and secondly, because few
people even realize the Apple IIgs existed. Mention the "IIgs" and
most people think you're talking about something from the Macintosh II
line or a faster version of the Apple IIe they used in school. Or worse,
most people just never heard of it at all.
Take the website Overclocked Remix (http://www.ocremix.org).
How many music remixes were done for the Apple II or IIgs? Unfortunately
the answer is: Zero. There were so many great pieces of music composed
in Apple IIgs games though no one knows of them. The musical scores from
Thexder or Tass Times in Tone Town on the IIgs are just screaming to have
a techno remix done, or the music Alien Mind turned into a soft piano piece.
Or Zany Golf and The Immortal, they're worthy of a live orchestration remix
(they've already done that for several Super Nintendo games actually, which
is another cousin of the IIgs). :)
Mitchell Spector
Michael J. Mahon
> > Michael J. Mahon replied:
>
> > The //e is quite MIDI-capable, too, and several sequencers
> > were written for it--they're just harder to find.
>
>The only one I've found is Passport Design's Master Tracks Pro. I
>have a vague recollection that there was also one named Trax? I 00
>finally got the a version of Master Tracks Pro from a IIgs
>website, and I'm hoping it will be compatible with the IIe (one
>can always hope).
There was also Master Tracks, and a 4-track and an 8-track sequencer
before them (whose name I can't remember at the moment).
<snip a bunch (including a nice complement ;-)>
>What I'd like to see is someone adapt a DOC chip to a MIDIbox.
I must be missing something--having the DOC integrated into
a capable machine like the IIgs, which can be trivially adapted
to MIDI in/out, would seem to make a "IIgs MIDIbox" be simply
a matter of programming...
-michael
Music synthesis for 8-bit Apple II's
Mitch Monger
> "Michael J. Mahon" <mjm...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>Of course, there are other options for the IIgs. Hasn't anyone
>>implemented an ensoniq-based synth supporting the IIgs keyboard
>>for piano-style playing?
<clip>
> Then there's Poly-Sons 3.0 from Barbar de St. Cyr, also from France,
> which is basically Super Syntetizer taken to the next level.
By doing a bit of data mining I found Polysons 5.1 :) It is now
open source and can be downloaded here:
http://apple2.org.za/gswv/a2zine/GS.WorldView/Resources/GS.AUDIOWARES/
"Polysons v5.1 is a very unique and advanced program. The only
one of its kind, ever developed for the IIGS. It was formally a
copyrighted freeware. I hope, with its release to the public
domain, some talented IIGS programmer or group of programmers,
will continue with improvements and updates.
It's a very impressive MIDI sequencer, advanced sound designer
and has many unique
potentials with audio development abilities. The source codes
are for the French version, which is included. The English
translated version of the program was released some time ago.
For those wishing a copy of the English version, this is it!
<clip>
Jean and I, both hope the public domain release of Polysons v5.1
and its source codes will stimulate more productive and creative
development efforts, for the IIGS and its music users."
SoundAce can also be downloaded there.
"SoundAce v2.2 is the only FreeWare release of a slotless or slot
assigned digitizer control program and sound editor, with many
exclusive and unique special effects, found with no other IIgs
programs such as; Multiple Undos up to (3), Pitchbends up to (4),
Echos up to (9), multi-sample mix (DUB/LAYER), with reverse
sound directive option, (multiple-select and minipulation/edit)
sample/sound oscilloscope twin window functions."
Thanks very much, Mitchell, for the tip on Poly-Sons (Polysons).
It is amazing to me that this piece of software is so obscure.
I'm also quite happy to now have TrackIt.
-Mitch Monger
Simon Williams
> >I'd been to your page before I went to sleep last
> >night. I tried some download links and they didn't
> >work. That is partially due to my Mozilla browser. I
> >gave up before I read about RT.SYNTH. I was pretty
> >tired. I downloaded RT.SYNTH today using the iCab
> >browser (Mac), which has an excellent download manager.
> >I couldn't download the mp3s no matter what I did.
>
> Curious, I haven't had any trouble with them on several
> different computers, including Macs...
I too had [weird] problems downloading from your page... Safari on
MacOSX insisted on downloading the .SDK file as html and even renaming
it to .html in the finder. Never had that happen before...
FWIW I had no problems downloading to my IIgs via my Chebucto Community
Net (plug) shell account, which just goes to show that the Apple II is
still the superior machine!
Mitch Monger
>> Mitch Monger <m...@m.com> wrote:
>
>>In general, the Apple II community doesn't seem as
>>fired up about making music as the Commodore folks are.
>
> everything possible to push the machine to its limits in
> between 1992 and 1995. Then it all just seemed to stop...cold.
I went from Sinclair to Commodore to Mac, but I remember that.
There was that IIgs vs Macintosh vs Commodore vs Atari vs PC
thing. The IIgs people reminded me of the NeXT people later;
embattled religious sects. Worthy religions, mind you.
> The past decade there's been really nothing happening,
> which is disappointing when you consider there's been
> programming revivals with many of the other now "dead"
> platforms (i.e. C64, Atari ST, Atari, Amiga, even old game
> consoles).
Yes, the IIgs doesn't have the cool cachet. Apple IIs are cool
now, and the early Macs are too. I met a guy with a license plate
that says "APPLEII" and he doesn't even own one. I told him I own
an original II, but he didn't even want to talk about it. He just
said he hadn't used an Apple for 15 years and drove off. Owner of
Idaho license APPLEII - you are an asswipe!
The IIgs's are just falliing between the cracks. It was
potentially the most powerful music making machine of its era.
And of all of the vintage machines being revived for music, it
still is potentially the most powerful. There are more people
making music on the friggin' ZX Spectrum! (and some of it sounds
pretty good, too).
<clip>
> The problem is just when things started
> to get interesting for the machine (in terms of this new golden
> age of programming) everyone just suddenly abandoned the
> machine.
Pressures of the marketplace. Move on or die.
<clip>
> There weren't too many really talented music composers
> around the Apple IIgs scene either. There was the FTA, James
> Brooks, Gene Koh, and late in the game, Dreamer (Ninjaforce).
Thank you for the list. I've heard FTA so far. Superb group, but
the tonal quality was fairly SID-like:
http://ergo-sum.us/Members/cmcurtin/machinemusic/view
If every possibility of the DOC can be tapped via software, then
I don't think FTA had the software to do it. The Ensoniq ESQ-1
sounds much better.
<clip>
> If you want to have a listen how flexible the Ensoniq is:
> http://www.virtualapple.com/californiagamesgsdisk.html
Don't have ActiveX on my eMac, but I did downloaded California
Games and will run it when I get my IIgs set up. Yes, I think
games are the place to go for cutting edge music of the era. Game
programmers get into the nooks and crannys.
>>Maybe people just look at the Ensoniq synths which were
>>based on the 5503 and throw up their hands and think
>>"why bother, it's already been done."
> I suppose one reason is the 5503 was mainly geared for
> wavetable synthesis
Ah, I didn't realize this. I'm still learning. This is why the
drum sounds of the IIgs are superior to even the MIDIbox SID's.
It's because they're samples of real drums. You say mainly geared
for wavetable, but I wonder how much potential it has as a sound
generator. A combination of functions would be good. If it's
mainly a sample playing "ROMpler", that's great too. I just have
to do some hands on learning, when I get the chance.
> Mention the "IIgs" and most people think you're talking about
> something from the Macintosh II line or a faster version of the
> Apple IIe they used in school. Or worse, most people just never
> heard of it at all.
Reminds me of when I sold a small mountain of NeXT computers on
eBay. If someone I knew wanted to know what I was selling, I had
to launch into a computer history lecture, "There was this guy
who had a NeXT Cube named Tim Berners Lee, and he made a
networking program with it called www.app." A computer can
completely alter the courses of the lives of every human being,
but be almost completely unknown. People's priorities are
screwed. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Brittany Spears really is more
important.
> How many music remixes were done for the Apple II or IIgs?
> Unfortunately the answer is: Zero.
Geez Louise! That's nothing but tragic. When I get my setup set
up, I won't do remixes, but mixes, which are even better still.
I've only just begun to get serious about making music. Can't
wait to mix Polysons with RT.Synth! Yeayah! It would have taken
me forever to uncover the info that's in this thread. Muchos
gracias, seniors.
-Mitch Monger AKA ExiMod
http://www.motiograph.com/eximod/intentional_robot.mp3
http://www.motiograph.com/eximod/macpippi.mp3
Mitch Monger
Mitch Monger wrote:
> I must be missing something--having the DOC integrated into
> a capable machine like the IIgs, which can be trivially adapted
> to MIDI in/out, would seem to make a "IIgs MIDIbox" be simply
> a matter of programming...
In addition to the capabilities of the SID, The MIDIbox also has
built into it:
* 2 additional envelopes with optional non-linear curve which
can be assigned to Pitch, Pulsewidth and Filters
* 6 additional LFOs with different waveforms which can be
assigned to Pitch, Pulsewidth and Filters
* Fine Tuning
* Pitch Bender
* Portamento/Glide function
* Delays
* optional Oscillator Synchronization
* Arpeggiator
* Poly, Mono and Legato Mode
* seperate keyboard zones for each voice (key splitting) allows
to play voices seperately
* Free controller assignments to Modulation Wheel, Velocity and
Aftertouch
* wave and CC sequences which allow more percussive sounds
(Wavetables)
* the wavetable sequencer can be combined with the arpeggiator in
order to realize complex textures
* LFOs, Envelopes, Wavetables, Arpeggios optionally syncable via
external MIDI clock
* up to 6 CV ins with 8 bit resolution which are forwarded to the
LFOs (6th waveform) and can control the OSC frequency,
pulsewidth and filter
* up to 8 CV outs with 12 bit resolution (in experimental state)
* OS independent SysEx editor based on JSynthLib
* BankStick support (128 sound patches per stick)
* can be used as .sid file player (see MIOS Download section)
* optional minimal control unit (Step A)
* the possibility to control up to 4 SIDs (Step B)
* a complete control surface (Step C)
There are also those bright flashy LEDs and twiddly knobs.
Nothing beats knobs and sliders for most musicians. Of course, an
external MIDI controller would do that. And an add-on card for
extra DOC chips?
But what about the many functions listed above? Are they possible
to do in software on a IIgs? Would you need a faster processor
and bus to handle all of this? Another thing I'm wondering is
that is it possible that Ensoniq somehow hobbled its chip in the
IIgs so that it wouldn't compete with their synths? Think
Motorola ROKR vs iPod. This probably isn't an issue, but it might be.
http://www.vintagesynth.com/ has the general specifications of
the Ensoniq ESQ-1 synthesizer. I wonder if it would be possible
to emulate this, or even part of it on a IIgs. Perhaps the big
sticking point would be the analog filters and envelopes which
would need to be emulated. I don't know. Wish I wasn't such a
greenhorn about all this.
-Mitch Monger
Mitch Monger
> Michael J. Mahon <mjm...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>I'd been to your page before I went to sleep last
>>>night. I tried some download links and they didn't
>>>work. That is partially due to my Mozilla browser. I
>>>gave up before I read about RT.SYNTH. I was pretty
>>>tired. I downloaded RT.SYNTH today using the iCab
>>>browser (Mac), which has an excellent download manager.
>>>I couldn't download the mp3s no matter what I did.
>>
>>Curious, I haven't had any trouble with them on several
>>different computers, including Macs...
>
>
> I too had [weird] problems downloading from your page... Safari on
> MacOSX insisted on downloading the .SDK file as html and even renaming
> it to .html in the finder. Never had that happen before...
> FWIW I had no problems downloading to my IIgs via my Chebucto Community
> Net (plug) shell account, which just goes to show that the Apple II is
> still the superior machine!
>
> -s
>
I tried Mozilla, Safari, and iCab on my eMac, and only iCab
worked for downoading. I especially wanted to hear the mp3s, and
neither Mozilla nor Safari could get them. I refuse to put
Explorer on my Mac. I finally did get the mp3s by using the
iGetter downloader, which is integrated into iCab. They are VERY
impressive. The Apple II really is a serious music machine!
iCab is definitely the best download browser for Macs (major
plug). It has its own excellent downloader, and also has iGetter
integrated into it. It doesn't take over and translate files on
you. I had a helluva time getting downloaded programs for my
TRS-80 Model 100 to work. Come to find out that Navigator was
automatically translating the line breaks from DOS into Mac
format, which wouldn't run on my old computer. iCab doesn't do that.
But the very best way to download is on an Apple II via Chebucto.
Michael J. Mahon
>I too had [weird] problems downloading from your page... Safari on
>MacOSX insisted on downloading the .SDK file as html and even renaming
>it to .html in the finder. Never had that happen before...
>FWIW I had no problems downloading to my IIgs via my Chebucto Community
>Net (plug) shell account, which just goes to show that the Apple II is
>still the superior machine!
Interesting... I just tried the download myself, in MSIE, and had
the same thing happen: the .SDK file type changed before my eyes
into .html just before the download!
Does anyone have any idea what's going on here?
-michael
Music synthesis for 8-bit Apple II's
Michael J. Mahon
A few months ago, AOL made a change in their web
server software which induced this problem for files
with "unknown" suffixes.
They have generated a "trouble report" to their engineering
team, and see it as a problem to be fixed.
In the meantime, I found a workaround that is pretty
painless--I just substituted a full-path ftp link for
the download URL, and now I think everyone will be able
to click to download from any browser.
I haven't changed any links except the RT.SYNTH disk
images until I know for sure that this fixes the problem.
Just goes to show that you can never do enough testing
to find all the problems...
-michael
Music synthesis for 8-bit Apple II's
Mitchell Spector
> > Mitchell Spector wrote:
> >> Mitch Monger <m...@m.com> wrote:
>The IIgs's are just falliing between the cracks. It was
>potentially the most powerful music making machine of its era.
>And of all of the vintage machines being revived for music, it
>still is potentially the most powerful. There are more people
>making music on the friggin' ZX Spectrum! (and some of it sounds
>pretty good, too).
Throughout the 80's, it actually _was_ THE most powerful computer
for music capabilities, there was nothing else that even approached it.
Even into the early 90's, it still was unlikely anything your typical
home computer for music.
> > There weren't too many really talented music composers
> > around the Apple IIgs scene either. There was the FTA, James
> > Brooks, Gene Koh, and late in the game, Dreamer (Ninjaforce).
>
>Thank you for the list. I've heard FTA so far. Superb group, but
>the tonal quality was fairly SID-like:
>
>http://ergo-sum.us/Members/cmcurtin/machinemusic/view
That example is just a MOD they converted and enhanced, and
by the sound of it, it was recorded from an emulator as I can hear
notes clipped and overall it sounding a bit strange.
The FTA used a music tool called "Soundsmith", which was
basically a 15 voice MOD player stripped of all effects. Nothing
really unique sounding there, although their musician was very
talented and produced some really cool pieces of music. X-Mas
Demo has some nice variety.
If you want to hear some Apple IIGS specific music, have a listen
to the soundtrack from Zany Golf, The Immortal, Rocket Ranger,
Thexder, Epxy's Game series (Winter and World), Sierra's Quest
series, or music programs like Music Construction Set GS and
Diversi-Tune. As a matter of fact, to save you the trouble, I have
an MP3 collection I recorded years back with all these and more.
Contact me by e-mail and I'll get them to you.
>If every possibility of the DOC can be tapped via software, then
>I don't think FTA had the software to do it. The Ensoniq ESQ-1
>sounds much better.
You're right, see above; Soundsmith was fairly limited considering
what the IIgs could do. Gene Koh used a custom music engine
for the Pangea games he wrote music for (see: Xenocide and
Cosmocade, especially the latter) and Will Harvey used the
never-released Deluxe Music Construction Set GS engine for
Zany Golf and Immortal. Still not nearly tapping the full potential
of the Ensoniq but certainly good starts.
> > If you want to have a listen how flexible the Ensoniq is:
> > http://www.virtualapple.com/californiagamesgsdisk.html
>
>Don't have ActiveX on my eMac, but I did downloaded California
>Games and will run it when I get my IIgs set up. Yes, I think
>games are the place to go for cutting edge music of the era. Game
>programmers get into the nooks and crannys.
I wouldn't call California Games GS cutting edge music, or even
great sounding for that matter--it was just interesting as an example
of how flexible the Ensoniq was, even masquerading as a SID. :)
> >>Maybe people just look at the Ensoniq synths which were
> >>based on the 5503 and throw up their hands and think
> >>"why bother, it's already been done."
>
> > I suppose one reason is the 5503 was mainly geared for
> > wavetable synthesis
>
>Ah, I didn't realize this. I'm still learning. This is why the
>drum sounds of the IIgs are superior to even the MIDIbox SID's.
>It's because they're samples of real drums. You say mainly geared
>for wavetable, but I wonder how much potential it has as a sound
>generator. A combination of functions would be good. If it's
>mainly a sample playing "ROMpler", that's great too. I just have
>to do some hands on learning, when I get the chance.
There were no pre-defined waveforms and effects already
programmed into the Ensoniq, at least not in the same sense as
the SID. You had 64K of dedicated RAM (separate from main
RAM) and loaded real-world samples into it and then manipulated
them. Of course you could create any kind of artificial waveform
and manipulated it in almost anyway you could, but I suppose the
fact that it wasn't already built-in made it less interesting.
Here's an analogy: It's kind of like plunking an artist down with
3 cans of opened paint and a canvas, versus telling them there's
all the paint you want in the backroom, but you have to walk over
and get them, open them, and then mix them yourself (yet making
unlimited colors no less). Which artist is more likely to create? :)
Or maybe just the shear challenge is more attractive.
Some of my friends with C64's and early PC's used to argue the
Ensoniq was too boring because it produced music that was too
realistic sounding. Whereas the SID and OPL2 (FM) had very
funky sounding music--very unusual and electronical sounding.
Mitchell Spector
Michael J. Mahon
<snip long list of snazzy features ;-) >
>There are also those bright flashy LEDs and twiddly knobs.
>Nothing beats knobs and sliders for most musicians. Of course, an
>external MIDI controller would do that. And an add-on card for
>extra DOC chips?
If _lots_ of extra hardware is needed, then using the IIgs as is
becomes less desirable.
But I thought that one DOC chip was enough for one IIgs, and
that a mouse/GUI simulated panel might replace the real panel
knobs, sliders, LEDs, and switches. Obviously not, for someone
who wants that "hands on" feel. ;-)
>But what about the many functions listed above? Are they possible
>to do in software on a IIgs? Would you need a faster processor
>and bus to handle all of this? Another thing I'm wondering is
>that is it possible that Ensoniq somehow hobbled its chip in the
>IIgs so that it wouldn't compete with their synths? Think
>Motorola ROKR vs iPod. This probably isn't an issue, but it might be.
It would have to be evaluated on a feature-by-feature basis.
I expect that much of it could be done just with software.
I doubt that the DOC was hobbled, since any change in a chip
is expensive. And the IIgs is an unlikely competitor for a
dedicated synth.
>http://www.vintagesynth.com/ has the general specifications of
>the Ensoniq ESQ-1 synthesizer. I wonder if it would be possible
>to emulate this, or even part of it on a IIgs. Perhaps the big
>sticking point would be the analog filters and envelopes which
>would need to be emulated. I don't know. Wish I wasn't such a
>greenhorn about all this.
The filters are, indeed, a problem. The SID has a versatile
filter built in, but the DOC--and the IIgs--does not. The
65816, even accelerated, is no match for real-time digital
filtering. ;-(
Greg Buchner
"Michael J. Mahon" <mjm...@aol.com> wrote:
> Simon replied:
>
> >I too had [weird] problems downloading from your page... Safari on
> >MacOSX insisted on downloading the .SDK file as html and even renaming
> >it to .html in the finder. Never had that happen before...
> >FWIW I had no problems downloading to my IIgs via my Chebucto Community
> >Net (plug) shell account, which just goes to show that the Apple II is
> >still the superior machine!
>
> Interesting... I just tried the download myself, in MSIE, and had
> the same thing happen: the .SDK file type changed before my eyes
> into .html just before the download!
>
> Does anyone have any idea what's going on here?
I just downloaded it on my Mac running Safari 1.3.1 successfully. I
just held down the option key when I clicked on the link to force a
download. Resulting file looks fine and is 143,360 bytes so I assume it
wasn't modified in any way. And I just ran it in Virtual ][ and it
boots up fine and runs the programs so it successfully downloaded.
Greg B.
--
There's just one 2 in my e-mail address, so delete one to e-mail me.
jboo...@gmail.com
links to DSK images will open in internet explorer
as text files.
with ZIP windows always asks if you want to
OPEN or SAVEAS.
Michael J. Mahon
I was under the impression that .zip files presented
some issues for Mac users.
Has that been "fixed"?
It would be great if all platforms agreed on an archive
format, though that would, of course, leave out older
platforms (like the Apple II, for which .zip support is
pretty bad).
Mitchell Spector
>Mitch replied:
>>But what about the many functions listed above? Are they possible
>>to do in software on a IIgs? Would you need a faster processor
>>and bus to handle all of this? Another thing I'm wondering is
>>that is it possible that Ensoniq somehow hobbled its chip in the
>>IIgs so that it wouldn't compete with their synths? Think
>>Motorola ROKR vs iPod. This probably isn't an issue, but it might be.
>
>It would have to be evaluated on a feature-by-feature basis.
>I expect that much of it could be done just with software.
>
>I doubt that the DOC was hobbled, since any change in a chip
>is expensive. And the IIgs is an unlikely competitor for a
>dedicated synth.
Apple, on the other hand, did somewhat hobble the Ensoniq 5503.
The chip could directly address 128K of DOC RAM, yet to cut down
on costs, only provided it with 64K (they should have at least provided
two empty DIP sockets and a jumper to expand it, but didn't).
Next they wired all 8 stereo channels into 1 channel, and then mirrored
that monaural signal to the left/right channels of the Audio-out connector.
You had to purchase a third party "stereo card" to demultiplex the signal
into 2 channels, otherwise you were stuck with monaural sound. And
despite having a built-in DAC for audio recording, they left out a "line-in"
jack. The original motherboard also inadvertently added some unwanted
noise/buzzing, which wasn't corrected until the ROM 3 board in 1989.
Finally they failed to provide any software tools to really tap into the
features of the chip. It wasn't until MIDIsynth, not introduced officially
until 1992, at the end of the GS's commercial life, that a serious music
toolset was introduced.
Mitchell Spector
Greg Buchner
"Michael J. Mahon" <mjm...@aol.com> wrote:
> jbooth replied:
>
> >ZIP them and it seems to fix all problems.
> >
> >links to DSK images will open in internet explorer
> >as text files.
> >
> >with ZIP windows always asks if you want to
> >OPEN or SAVEAS.
>
> I was under the impression that .zip files presented
> some issues for Mac users.
>
> Has that been "fixed"?
>
> It would be great if all platforms agreed on an archive
> format, though that would, of course, leave out older
> platforms (like the Apple II, for which .zip support is
> pretty bad).
With Mac OS X 10.3 and later, zip is part of the GUI. You can
right-click on a file and select Create archive of "filename" and a .zip
file will result. If you double-click on the file, it expands
automatically. StuffIt isn't involved at all in the process which seems
to help quite a bit.
The Apple GUI zip stuff I think will handle all of the Mac OS extras,
like creator/filetype and resource forks for the older stuff, but it's
not as important with OS X.
I've rarely had a problem downloading files with Safari in Mac OS X, but
then I tend to automatically press the option key to force a download.
Greg B.
--
Actual e-mail address is gbuchner and I'm located at mn.rr.com
BluPhoenyx
>
> Apple, on the other hand, did somewhat hobble the Ensoniq 5503.
> The chip could directly address 128K of DOC RAM, yet to cut down
> on costs, only provided it with 64K (they should have at least provided
> two empty DIP sockets and a jumper to expand it, but didn't).
>
> Next they wired all 8 stereo channels into 1 channel, and then mirrored
> that monaural signal to the left/right channels of the Audio-out connector.
> You had to purchase a third party "stereo card" to demultiplex the signal
> into 2 channels, otherwise you were stuck with monaural sound. And
> despite having a built-in DAC for audio recording, they left out a "line-in"
> jack. The original motherboard also inadvertently added some unwanted
> noise/buzzing, which wasn't corrected until the ROM 3 board in 1989.
>
> Finally they failed to provide any software tools to really tap into the
> features of the chip. It wasn't until MIDIsynth, not introduced officially
> until 1992, at the end of the GS's commercial life, that a serious music
> toolset was introduced.
Apple also had legal issues regarding music creation on their computers.
I don't recall the exact details but I do remember Apple being sued by
another company also using the Apple name, in Britain IIRC.
Cheers,
Mike T.
Lyrical Nanoha
> Apple also had legal issues regarding music creation on their computers. I
> don't recall the exact details but I do remember Apple being sued by another
> company also using the Apple name, in Britain IIRC.
Apple Corps Ltd., aka The Beatles
-uso.
Martin Doherty
>
> Apple also had legal issues regarding music creation on their computers.
> I don't recall the exact details but I do remember Apple being sued by
> another company also using the Apple name, in Britain IIRC.
>
> Cheers,
> Mike T.
Yeah, Apple Records, the label the Beatles recorded with (owned?). I
remember my parents' Abbey Road album with a big picture of a Granny
Smith on the centre label.
They agreed to allow Apple Computer to use the name on the condition
that they not enter the music business. I guess they decided that the
Ensoniq chip crossed the line. I've heard that since then, Apples have
had to generate their music in software, not hardware.
Mitch Monger
> jbooth replied:
>>ZIP them and it seems to fix all problems.
> I was under the impression that .zip files presented
> some issues for Mac users.
>
> Has that been "fixed"?
>
> It would be great if all platforms agreed on an archive
> format, though that would, of course, leave out older
> platforms (like the Apple II, for which .zip support is
> pretty bad).
.Zip works on all Macs nowadays because they come loaded with
Stuffit Expander. It still seems like that icky PC format to me.
But Macs are going Intel and giving up FireWire for USB. Maybe
they will move to .zip as well. I can't see the harm in it (for
newer computers).
Mitch Monger
> With Mac OS X 10.3 and later, zip is part of the GUI.
Thanks Greg, didn't know that. Still new to OS X. I think it's a
brilliant move for Apple to use the PC platform's gadgets-absorb
and conquer.
Mitch Monger
> Mitch replied:
<clip>
> If _lots_ of extra hardware is needed, then using the IIgs as is
> becomes less desirable.
I sincerely respect your desire to keep things pure and true to a
platform. I like that way, and I also like the way of maxing
things out. In antique cars I like them to be either pristine
pure stock or old beaters that people want to pass, but can't,
because of what's under the hood.
>
> But I thought that one DOC chip was enough for one IIgs, and
> that a mouse/GUI simulated panel might replace the real panel
> knobs, sliders, LEDs, and switches. Obviously not, for someone
> who wants that "hands on" feel. ;-)
Personally, I've moved mostly to softsynths. I'm not one of those
compulsive knob twiddlers. And I'm not the only one. A softsynth
panel on a IIgs could be a wonder to behold.
<clip>
>>But what about the many functions listed above? Are they possible
>>to do in software on a IIgs?
>
> It would have to be evaluated on a feature-by-feature basis.
> I expect that much of it could be done just with software.
Yes. I definitely wonder how far the IIgs can go without add-ons.
One of the reasons SID music is great is because the musicians
are trying to work around the limitations of the chip. It forces
you to come up with solutions which take an extra measure of
creativity.
<clip>
> The filters are, indeed, a problem. The SID has a versatile
> filter built in, but the DOC--and the IIgs--does not. The
> 65816, even accelerated, is no match for real-time digital
> filtering. ;-(
Not such a terrible thing if you can load your own samples into
it. Just filter them beforehand, I guess. No need for real-time,
then. Thanks, that's good to know. "A man's got to know his
limitations." -Clint Eastwood, Magnum Force
---
p.s. My posts are out of order when I check them on Google
Groups. I post using Mozilla Thunderbird and they're order at my
ISP. Sorry if they're out of order where you are.
Paul Schlyter
>Michael J. Mahon wrote:
>> jbooth replied:
>
>>>ZIP them and it seems to fix all problems.
>
>> I was under the impression that .zip files presented
>> some issues for Mac users.
>>
>> Has that been "fixed"?
>>
>> It would be great if all platforms agreed on an archive
>> format, though that would, of course, leave out older
>> platforms (like the Apple II, for which .zip support is
>> pretty bad).
>
>.Zip works on all Macs nowadays because they come loaded with
>Stuffit Expander.
I suppose you mean "all modern Macs" rather than "all Macs nowadays".
If zip files didn't work on old Macs earlier, they'll probably not
work on old MAcs nowadays either.
>It still seems like that icky PC format to me.
It is - it originated in the PC world.
Perhaps you should try the tar format instead? Tar files originated
in the Unix world and is a little better suited for the Unix
file system -- and since Mac introduced OS-X it runs on a Unix-like
file system. So try tar files if you don't like zip files. Yes,
tar is uncompressed so you'll probably want to run e.g. gzip on them
to compress them (gzip and zip files are not quite the same - in
particular a gzip file can only contain one single compressed file -
usually it's a tar file).
>But Macs are going Intel and giving up FireWire for USB. Maybe
>they will move to .zip as well. I can't see the harm in it (for
>newer computers).
...like they earlier gave up GCR for MFM, and SCSI for IDE ....
It's a matter of cost. It is expensive to stick to non-standard
solutions in the long run. And earlier, one common (and valid!)
critiscism of the Mac was that it's too expensive.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Schlyter, Grev Turegatan 40, SE-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN
e-mail: pausch at stockholm dot bostream dot se
WWW: http://stjarnhimlen.se/
Michael J. Mahon
>> The filters are, indeed, a problem. The SID has a versatile
>> filter built in, but the DOC--and the IIgs--does not. The
>> 65816, even accelerated, is no match for real-time digital
>> filtering. ;-(
>
>Not such a terrible thing if you can load your own samples into
>it. Just filter them beforehand, I guess. No need for real-time,
>then. Thanks, that's good to know. "A man's got to know his
>limitations." -Clint Eastwood, Magnum Force
If it were only static filtering on individual voices, that
would do the trick, but many times you want dynamic filtering
(e.g. wah-wah) on the mix of several voices. This requires
post-filtering in real-time.
-michael
Banjo, Clarinet, etc. for 8-bit Apple II's
http://members.aol.com/mjmahon
Mitch Monger
<clip>
>>>Another thing I'm wondering is that is it possible that Ensoniq somehow
>>>hobbled its chip in the IIgs so that it wouldn't compete with
their
>>>synths?
>>I doubt that the DOC was hobbled, since any change in a chip
>>is expensive. And the IIgs is an unlikely competitor for a
>>dedicated synth.
>Apple, on the other hand, did somewhat hobble the Ensoniq 5503
>The chip could directly address 128K of DOC RAM, yet to cut down
>on costs, only provided it with 64K (they should have at least
>provided two empty DIP sockets and a jumper to expand it, but
>didn't).
I wonder if it's possible to extend the RAM on the DOC anyway.
> Next they wired all 8 stereo channels into 1 channel, and then mirrored
> that monaural signal to the left/right channels of the Audio-out connector.
> You had to purchase a third party "stereo card" to demultiplex the signal
> into 2 channels, otherwise you were stuck with monaural sound. And
> despite having a built-in DAC for audio recording, they left out a "line-in"
> jack. The original motherboard also inadvertently added some unwanted
> noise/buzzing, which wasn't corrected until the ROM 3 board in 1989.
Great, so my Woz IIgs's are going to buzz. :( Now I have to buy a
ROM 3 gs or two. Some of the greatest synths were mono. Not bad
if it's going into the right mix. Good thing there are sound
cards for the IIgs that do audio in as well as out.
> Finally they failed to provide any software tools to really tap into the
> features of the chip. It wasn't until MIDIsynth, not introduced officially
> until 1992, at the end of the GS's commercial life, that a serious music
> toolset was introduced.
Sounds like it's just "differently abled." There are workarounds.
Not too disappointing.
Michael J. Mahon
archiving standard, there is great utility.
Not having a common archiving standard is like not having
a common character code--it provides no advantage and
it defeats the purpose of easy information interchange.
Greg Buchner
wrote:
> Greg Buchner wrote:
No, I think it's more that StuffIt is perennially bug-ridden, and was
quite late in dealing with some of the OS X issues. Not to mention that
it's been slow for what you get for compression out of it.
Apple has actually been sticking to disk images for their stuff for
quite a while and that's had built-in compress for quite a while.
Greg B
Greg Buchner
wrote:
> .Zip works on all Macs nowadays because they come loaded with
> Stuffit Expander.
StuffIt Expander is no longer included with Apple in the OS X install.
If you need it, you have to download it yourself.
> But Macs are going Intel and giving up FireWire for USB.
Apple's not giving up on Firewire. It does have speed advantages over
USB2 for video and hard drive access.
> Maybe
> they will move to .zip as well. I can't see the harm in it (for
> newer computers).
Apple does disk images for the own software distribution and I think OS
X can handle .zip, .tar, .tar.gz and a few others that developers use.
I've even see .dmg.gz which is a gzipped disk image.
Mitch Monger
>Mitch Monger <m...@m.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>.Zip works on all Macs nowadays because they come loaded with
>>Stuffit Expander.
>
>
> StuffIt Expander is no longer included with Apple in the OS X install.
> If you need it, you have to download it yourself.
>
>
>>But Macs are going Intel and giving up FireWire for USB.
>
>
> Apple's not giving up on Firewire. It does have speed advantages over
> USB2 for video and hard drive access.
Right, my bad. I'd assumed because they're dropping FireWire on
iPods that it was just the first step.
And I'm sorry I even mentioned .zip. I'm not even interested in
talking about Mac compression (yawn). I'm way more interested in
IIgs music software.
Mitch Monger
>> Mitch Monger <m...@m.com> wrote:
>>.Zip works on all Macs nowadays because they come loaded with
>>Stuffit Expander.
>
> I suppose you mean "all modern Macs" rather than "all Macs nowadays".
> If zip files didn't work on old Macs earlier, they'll probably not
> work on old MAcs nowadays either.
Yez yer korrekt. My gramarr wuz mistooken.
This has been a great thread about IIgs music software. Hopefully
it will be a good reference for people.
ericm...@gmail.com
> Hi, I have a IIe with a Passport Designs MIDI interface
> card, but no software. When I brought it home from the
> thrift store I found the Passport Designs Mastertracks
> Pro and Polywriter manuals, but no disks. Bummer.
>
> I'm also getting interested in firing up one of my
> IIgs's and taking advantage of its Ensoniq chip. I've
> downloaded System 6.0.1 and synthLAB, but would also
> like to get the IIgs version of Mastertracks Pro. Any
> other good music software would also be appreciated.
>
> There is very little info on the Net about Apple II
> MIDI software. Finding IIgs MIDI software is difficult,
> but finding MIDI software for the II is downright
> impossible. I've searched and searched. It's just not
> there. But it does exist.
>
> I would greatly appreciate it if someone could email it
> to me. I'm pretty broke right now, but I may be able to
> trade something for it.
>
> Thank you,
> Mitch
> SpamsuckaSmellysocks AT y a h o o . c o m
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> Hi, I have a IIe with a Passport Designs MIDI interface
> card, but no software. When I brought it home from the
> thrift store I found the Passport Designs Mastertracks
> Pro and Polywriter manuals, but no disks. Bummer.
>
> I'm also getting interested in firing up one of my
> IIgs's and taking advantage of its Ensoniq chip. I've
> downloaded System 6.0.1 and synthLAB, but would also
> like to get the IIgs version of Mastertracks Pro. Any
> other good music software would also be appreciated.
>
> There is very little info on the Net about Apple II
> MIDI software. Finding IIgs MIDI software is difficult,
> but finding MIDI software for the II is downright
> impossible. I've searched and searched. It's just not
> there. But it does exist.
>
> I would greatly appreciate it if someone could email it
> to me. I'm pretty broke right now, but I may be able to
> trade something for it.
>
> Thank you,
> Mitch
> SpamsuckaSmellysocks AT y a h o o . c o m
> please take off the Smellysocks to reply