Vintage Computing Advice
Jason
"vintage" computing. Joining the swelling ranks of the nation's
unemployed, I now find myself with a whole lot of extra time on my
hands, so it seems like an opportune moment.
I don't have a lot of room in the study I share with my wife, so I was
thinking of picking up an Apple IIc which seem to go for under $40 on
eBay in good condition. My first Apple was a //+, so I'm hoping it
will be an easy adjustment.
My questions relate to the following:
Video: I'd like to use an existing LCD panel display I have (with VGA
input). I note that several companies manufacture composite video to
VGA converter boxes for $40-$60. Can anyone comment whether this
produces an acceptable display? I'd prefer to avoid dealing with an
older CRT if I can avoid it.
Program storage: I understand some people may enjoy the swishing sound
the Disk ][ drive makes when loading programs, but I can live just fine
without managing a large stack of floppies and worrying about keeping
them away from magnetic fields and wondering when they may go bad on
me. I see there is a CFFA adapter for the larger Apple // computers,
and there has been some talk of creating one for the //c, but it is
still presumably vaporware and some time off, no? Are there any
alternatives? I see the 8-bit Atari platform has a nice adapter
(SIO2PC I belive it's called) that allows the Atari to connect to a
modern PC with the PC emulating many different peripherals
simultaneously. Is there anything analagous that will work on a //c?
//c revisions: There are two revisions of the //c (not including the
//c+ which doesn't particularly interest me at the moment anyway) --
the A2S4000 and the A2S4100. I presume the newer model is more
desirable because it has memory expansion capability? Hopefully this
does not limit any potential hardware upgrades along the lines of a
SDFA/CFFA card for it?
TIA for any comments.
--
Jason
PZ
Hopefully you can find an Apple IIc+ and an external 5 1/4 floppy
drive. This will enable you to eliminate the brick power supply, give
you an 800k floppy for some prodos based apps, and a 4mhz built in
accelerator (standard 8-bit apple's run at 1mhz).
As for a mass storage solution, I'll let someone else comment on
that. I would think whatever is released will be //c+ compatible
since that is typically the machine of choice for making an
"ultimate //c portable".
This might be a solution, not sure about the current status though:
http://www.thesvd.com/SVD
- Paul
Steven Hirsch
> Video: I'd like to use an existing LCD panel display I have (with VGA
> input). I note that several companies manufacture composite video to
> VGA converter boxes for $40-$60. Can anyone comment whether this
> produces an acceptable display? I'd prefer to avoid dealing with an
> older CRT if I can avoid it.
I do not think you'll be very happy with the picture from a composite-to-VGA
converter. This has been discussed to death on earlier threads.
> Program storage: I understand some people may enjoy the swishing sound
> the Disk ][ drive makes when loading programs, but I can live just fine
> without managing a large stack of floppies and worrying about keeping
> them away from magnetic fields and wondering when they may go bad on
> me. I see there is a CFFA adapter for the larger Apple // computers,
> and there has been some talk of creating one for the //c, but it is
> still presumably vaporware and some time off, no? Are there any
> alternatives? I see the 8-bit Atari platform has a nice adapter (SIO2PC
> I belive it's called) that allows the Atari to connect to a modern PC
> with the PC emulating many different peripherals simultaneously. Is
> there anything analagous that will work on a //c?
The SVD is designed to connect directly to a Disk ][ controller. AFAIK, the
//c has a different electrical interface that's closer to a SmartPort (is this
correct, or am I getting mixed up with something else?)
I have an SIO2PC for my Atari 800XL and agree that something of this sort
would be helpful for a //c. It would have been ideal if the //c had a
functional LocalTalk interface. There is some stub code in the ROM for
LocalTalk support, but I don't think it's complete or functional.
From everything you've said, I suspect you'd be happier with a //e (although
that does not solve the video issues).
sicklittlemonkey
> Jason wrote:
> > Is there anything analagous that will work on a //c?
No, though there is talk of a Carte Blanche for //c (someday).
The current version of CB (due soon) will solve the //e VGA problem,
as well as mass storage and other interesting possibilities.
http://www.applelogic.org/CARTEBLANCHE.html
Mass storage for //e & IIgs machines:
http://dreher.net/?s=projects/CFforAppleII&c=projects/CFforAppleII/main.php
http://www.reactivemicro.com/
> The SVD is designed to connect directly to a Disk ][ controller. AFAIK, the
> //c has a different electrical interface that's closer to a SmartPort (is this
> correct, or am I getting mixed up with something else?)
The old version doesn't seem very spacious, and the there hasn't been
any news for some time:
http://www.thesvd.com/SVD/update.php
There is a //c-specific memory expansion and mass storage solution "in
development":
http://www.a2retrosystems.com/blog/
> From everything you've said, I suspect you'd be happier with a //e (although
> that does not solve the video issues).
//e video is solved with CB. (Also a IIGS is like a //e + ports.)
For //c VGA there are 2 projects "in development":
http://ferdimh.homelinux.net/a2/a2vga/devel/
http://www.torlus.com/index.php
Cheers,
Nick.
PZ
> On Apr 28, 9:03 pm, Steven Hirsch <snhir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Jason wrote:
> > > Is there anything analagous that will work on a //c?
>
> No, though there is talk of a Carte Blanche for //c (someday).
> The current version of CB (due soon) will solve the //e VGA problem,
>
> Mass storage for //e & IIgs machines:http://dreher.net/?s=projects/CFforAppleII&c=projects/CFforAppleII/ma...http://www.reactivemicro.com/
>
> > The SVD is designed to connect directly to a Disk ][ controller. AFAIK, the
> > //c has a different electrical interface that's closer to a SmartPort (is this
> > correct, or am I getting mixed up with something else?)
>
> The old version doesn't seem very spacious, and the there hasn't been
> any news for some time:http://www.thesvd.com/SVD/update.php
>
> There is a //c-specific memory expansion and mass storage solution "in
> development":http://www.a2retrosystems.com/blog/
>
> > From everything you've said, I suspect you'd be happier with a //e (although
> > that does not solve the video issues).
>
> //e video is solved with CB. (Also a IIGS is like a //e + ports.)
>
> For //c VGA there are 2 projects "in development":http://ferdimh.homelinux.net/a2/a2vga/devel/http://www.torlus.com/index.php
>
> Cheers,
> Nick.
The Guimauve 2000 for the //c looks like its the ticket barring any
unforseen hitches. It looks like he's been making pretty steady
progress judging from the time stamps on his blog posts. That's
pretty exciting.
If you decide to go with a //e or //gs instead of a //e, then the
Focus Drive w/ a CF card is a great option.
http://16sector.com/shop/a2Storage/
The //gs will give you a //e with a 2.8mhz accelerator, serial ports
for both modem & printer, smart port for the disk drive, and easy
memory expansion. Most GS's come with either 256k or 1MB on the
motherboard and 1 MB expansion cards are readily available, used. You
can buy new 4mb and 8mb cards new, aftermarket.
If you do buy a //gs make sure to get one with a keyboard and mouse.
- Paul
magnusfalkirk
>
> If you do buy a //gs make sure to get one with a keyboard and mouse.
>
> - Paul
The beauty of the Apple IIGS is that it will work with ANY Apple ADB
keyboard and mouse, so you don't need to find a GS specific keyboard
or mouse.
just my two cents worth,
Dean
Jason
> Jason wrote:
>
>> Video: I'd like to use an existing LCD panel display I have (with VGA
>> input). I note that several companies manufacture composite video to
>> VGA converter boxes for $40-$60. Can anyone comment whether this
>> produces an acceptable display? I'd prefer to avoid dealing with an
>> older CRT if I can avoid it.
>
> I do not think you'll be very happy with the picture from a
> composite-to-VGA converter. This has been discussed to death on
> earlier threads.
I did a bit of digging with Google and found a few threads that touched
on it. I couldn't find any reference to something like this:
http://www.ambery.com/vitoxgacoscs.html It seems like the perfect
solution to avoid using an old monitor or waiting around for some FPGA
jockey to come up with a hack to read the display memory directly and
then output a VGA signal. The question is, does it work as well as the
manufacturer claims?
>> Program storage: I understand some people may enjoy the swishing sound
>> the Disk ][ drive makes when loading programs, but I can live just fine
>> without managing a large stack of floppies and worrying about keeping
>> them away from magnetic fields and wondering when they may go bad on
>> me. I see there is a CFFA adapter for the larger Apple // computers,
>> and there has been some talk of creating one for the //c, but it is
>> still presumably vaporware and some time off, no? Are there any
>> alternatives? I see the 8-bit Atari platform has a nice adapter
>> (SIO2PC I belive it's called) that allows the Atari to connect to a
>> modern PC with the PC emulating many different peripherals
>> simultaneously. Is there anything analagous that will work on a //c?
>
> The SVD is designed to connect directly to a Disk ][ controller.
> AFAIK, the //c has a different electrical interface that's closer to a
> SmartPort (is this correct, or am I getting mixed up with something
> else?)
Folks around here seem to be FPGA-happy. Might it not be faster (from
a development standpoint) to use an inexpensive PIC or AVR
microcontroller to interface an SD card to the //c or is the added
flexibility of an FPGA really necessary?
In the meantime, the SVD looks like just the ticket...
>
> I have an SIO2PC for my Atari 800XL and agree that something of this
> sort would be helpful for a //c. It would have been ideal if the //c
> had a functional LocalTalk interface. There is some stub code in the
> ROM for LocalTalk support, but I don't think it's complete or
> functional.
>
> From everything you've said, I suspect you'd be happier with a //e
> (although that does not solve the video issues).
I always wanted a //c. Given the lack of room in my tiny study, I
think I'd be better off with a //c right now, though I suppose if I
really get bitten by the vintage computing bug I might pick up a //e as
well. The //c+ computers are way overpriced these days and the //gs
isn't my cup of tea either.
--
Jason
PZ
I have to second your opinion on the AVR's. Especially when there are
C, Pascal and even Basic compilers available for them, they are
extremely easy to develop for. If you want tighter operation you can
use an assembler. However, for timing critical issues like video,
then CPLD's and FPGAs are still the way to go.
- Paul
Steven Hirsch
>> I do not think you'll be very happy with the picture from a
>> composite-to-VGA converter. This has been discussed to death on
>> earlier threads.
>
> I did a bit of digging with Google and found a few threads that touched
> on it. I couldn't find any reference to something like this:
> http://www.ambery.com/vitoxgacoscs.html It seems like the perfect
> solution to avoid using an old monitor or waiting around for some FPGA
> jockey to come up with a hack to read the display memory directly and
> then output a VGA signal. The question is, does it work as well as the
> manufacturer claims?
On anything that follows the NTSC standard it probably works well. Problem
being that Apples do not - any of them. Check archives of this newsgroup for
technical explanations from greater minds than I.
The only scan converter that's known to provide reasonable results is the
Highway Model 100 when used with a IIGS.
aiia...@gmail.com
> The beauty of the Apple IIGS is that it will work with ANY Apple ADB
> keyboard and mouse, so you don't need to find a GS specific keyboard
> or mouse.
not so! the one that splits in half doesn't work (ergonomic
keyboard?)
I don't think I could get the gravis mousestick to work either
(although
the version I have does say its for mac on the package)
you should say
"ANY ADB device that doesn't require drivers"
Rich
Alex Freed
On Apr 28, 11:15 am, Jason <jasonb1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Folks around here seem to be FPGA-happy. Might it not be faster (from
>> a development standpoint) to use an inexpensive PIC or AVR
>> microcontroller to interface an SD card to the //c or is the added
>> flexibility of an FPGA really necessary?
>>
This is exactly what my Pseudo Disk did. With an AVR. But to interface
directly to the Apple bus rather than to a disk controller which is
very much faster in ProDOS mode a few more chips were needed.
However the upcoming CB will take care of multiple thing with a single
board and will be extremely flexible.
-Alex.
sfahey
Re: Re: Vintage Computing Advice
By: Jason to comp.sys.apple2 on Wed Apr 29 2009 12:15 am
> I always wanted a //c. Given the lack of room in my tiny study, I
> think I'd be better off with a //c right now, though I suppose if I
> really get bitten by the vintage computing bug I might pick up a //e as
> well. The //c+ computers are way overpriced these days and the //gs
> isn't my cup of tea either.
8-bits forever!
Have you looked at Apple II Game Server?
http://a2central.com/?p=1683
Sean Fahey
www.a2central.com
bbs.a2central.com
sfahey
Re: Re: Vintage Computing Advice
> The beauty of the Apple IIGS is that it will work with ANY Apple ADB
> keyboard and mouse, so you don't need to find a GS specific keyboard
> or mouse.
No, there are some KBs and mice to avoid... the Mac ergonomic for example.
Sean Fahey
www.a2central.com
bbs.a2central.com
atfphot...@gmail.com
Howdy,
I've been on and off for years with my vintage stuff. Usually sticking
to things I used in my youth, Apple II series, with one exception
being NeXT machines because I worked for them in college.
The Apple IIc/+ are really cool, but I have much more fun trying to
track down the odd expansion card for the Apple IIe or IIgs systems.
My main machine for doing stuff at the moment is an Apple IIgs ROM 3
with the following;
LittlePower Adapter IIgs for the Power Supply - Lets the Apple use
miniATX power supplies. Very cool!
Transwarp GS - This is the accelerator - You can purchase upgrades to
crank it up beyond its initial speeds. If you find one cheap, grab it!
They seem to always hold their value and are terribly useful.
Fingerprint GS+ - A screen capturing card that can grab screens from
any DOS or ProDOS program and dump the contents to DOS or ProDOS -
regardless of what you are booted into.
AE GSRAM+ - Memory card with 6 megabytes of space (or is it 5 - ack).
Microdrive Turbo GS - A CF card solution. I use it with Ciderpress so
you can pop Apple II disk images back and forth from Windows based
machines. Very speedy too!
Computereyes GS - A still capture card that lets you input video and
capture a single frame (but both seem unhappy with the Transwarp).
Uther Apple II - Ethernet Port for the IIe/IIgs - Just got two of them
the other day and haven't had a moment to set them up yet. Weekend
project.
I also use the Vulcan GS w/ 105mb hard drives for fun. Much slower
than a CF card but fun to play around with. The upgrades, CF drive
and some other parts were purchased from Henry over at www.reactivemicro.com.
Don't work for him or anything. Just a happy customer.
One recent project I've been working is going through and replacing
all the electrolytic capacitors on _everything_ from power supplies,
motherboards, cards, etc. A fellow sold me a ROM 3 replacement
motherboard "new in the box" which turned out to be the motherboard
THAT the replacement motherboard had replaced. So I got the bad one!
Haha.. however after replacing all the caps, it's like new! The
condition of the board is very good too. The memory card slot is nice
and solid while my other boards are all fairly flimsy. Very clean
board.
Finding the capacitors can be an interesting challenge because of the
differences in sizes and such. Digikey and Jameco have good on-line
catalogs so you can track down things.
My Fingerprint GS+ card, which I really wanted to pull a bunch of
images I had made in The Newsroom, was dead on arrival. It was brought
back to life when I noticed the only capacitor was corroding. After a
suitable replacement was found it came back life.
Lots of fun.
The secondary machine I'm working on is a Apple IIe Platinum with;
LittlePower Adapter IIe - Power Supply
Zip 4000 II chip or Transwarp I (accelerators)
Microdrive IIe - CF Card solution for the IIe (still waiting on back
order)
Echo II sound card
Apple 3.5" Adapter card (which seems to have problems - it's also rare
- agh)
Apple 5.25" Adapter card
Video-7 Taxan RGB / 80 column card - Lets you use the Apple IIgs RGB
color monitors.
Apple IIe Mouse Card w/ Apple IIe Mouse
Apple 1 megabyte RAM expansion card
Uther Apple II - Ethernet port for IIe
Before I moved over to a Mac II in college I still had my IIe and was
using it to run GEOS by Berkley Softworks (http://en.wikipedia.org/
wiki/GEOS_(8-bit_operating_system)). It was pretty amazing using GEOS
with it's funky GUI on a non-accelerated 8-bit Apple IIe in 1989/1990.
Pretty darn slow but very cool at the same time.
Amazingly enough I found what I really wanted on eBay last week. Some
fellow had the Apple IIe/IIgs version of GEOS original in the box,
manuals, disks, etc. for $3.00. I guess I'm the only one after it
because I won the auction and just got it the other day. HAH! So very
very cool. Can't wait to see what garbage is on my data disks from
high school. GEOS for the Apple IIe used to come with this little card
for slot 7 that you would use if you didn't have a mouse. I always
thought it was a copy protection card or something. Duh on me. I found
my original card a few months ago in a box and was stunned that I
actually remembered what it was used for.
That's half the fun. Finding weird cards and software in the box for
very very reasonable rates. You can get GEOS on-line, but it's still
cool to have all the original manuals and box.
Check out the retrobright process too! I've been running through all
my cases, printers, keyboards, etc and it's been working like a charm.
Basically a few fellows got together and figured out a way to reverse
the process of nasty aging that happens as the machine cases get
older. I'm using a pure liquid bath version for my stuff. Still
putting together "before and after" photographs and I'll post a link
here when I'm done with everything. You can check out the wiki over
at http://retr0bright.wikispaces.com/Retr0Bright+Gel
Good luck with your vintage collection!
ATF
PZ
Alex, whats the status of the Pseudo Disk? I was holding out for write
capability, multiple partitions, and was hoping for the ability to
switch disks. This would essentially end up being a SVD on a card
which would be pretty holy grailish.
- Paul
PZ
On Apr 28, 11:15 am, Jason <jasonb1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
<snip>
> I did a bit of digging with Google and found a few threads that touched
> on it. I couldn't find any reference to something like this: http://www.ambery.com/vitoxgacoscs.html It seems like the perfect
> solution to avoid using an old monitor or waiting around for some FPGA
> jockey to come up with a hack to read the display memory directly and
> then output a VGA signal. The question is, does it work as well as the
> manufacturer claims?
<snip>
> --
> Jason
I've been looking at this one:
http://www.ambery.com/rgbcgatovgac.html
Has anyone actually tried it with an LCD? I dug through older topics
on csa2 and have only seen posts about people inquiring about it. Just
checking to see if someone pulled the trigger and bought one. $92
isn't bad if it works.
- Paul
Jason
OK, I dug around a bit more and found some discussions from 2007 on the
subject. To summarize what I read, it appears that apple uses a
non-NTSC-standard dot clock.
However, the converter above claims to support scan conversion
frequencies between 15.75 to 48.63 Khz. Anyone know what frequency the
Apple // series use? The manufacturer guarantees that it will convert
ALL video signals -- that sounds like a pretty bold claim to me, but if
it's true it would be great at a $60 price point. It also claims to
use modern DSP processing techniques (3D Y/C separation comb filter, 3D
motion adaptive YNR/CNR noise reduction, etc.) to improve the quality
of the picture.
If no one else here has tried one of these on an 8-bit //-series, I may
go ahead and pick one up and report back on how it works when I get my
//c. I can always use it for something else if it doesn't work on the
Apple.
--
Jason
Alex Freed
>
> Alex, whats the status of the Pseudo Disk?
Pretty much dead.
>I was holding out for write
that's what killed it :)
> capability, multiple partitions, and was hoping for the ability to
> switch disks. This would essentially end up being a SVD on a card
> which would be pretty holy grailish.
I was hoping that being an open source project it would start some
kind of a joint effort. There were 2 people who contributed to the
project later on, but that was clearly not enough to keep it alive.
With just 20 units or so ever requested there was zero incentive for
me to do any development.
The upcoming CB will have both an IDE and MMC/SD interfaces and more
than enough logic to implement just about any storage device. I'll do
the low level driver but somebody else will need to write a UI to
select images, etc.
-Alex.
Alex Freed
> OK, I dug around a bit more and found some discussions from 2007 on the
> subject. To summarize what I read, it appears that apple uses a
> non-NTSC-standard dot clock.
NTSC is an analog TV standard and doesn't specify any "dot clock" at
all. Apple does not follow the NTSC standard in other areas. Most
importantly it doesn't have 2 interlaced fields. As a result many
digital TVs won't show the video coming from Apple, for example my Dell
monitor using the TV input and another no-name LCD TV (car) monitor.
-Alex.
Jason
Alex, correct me if I'm wrong but you're developing mostly for the
larger //-series, not the //c-series, right? I read about your efforts
to adapt the CB to the //c using a killy clip, but while fine for
development purposes, I've read that they are unreliable for long-term
use. I gather you can't get all of the signals you need for this off
of the expansion slot. :-/
The //c has both a disk interface and an expansion slot. Assuming the
SVD is even compatible with the //c, it must use the disk interface. I
presume this would limit the speed of operation to that of the original
drives -- something like 76.8Kbps, right? This is not fast by today's
standards, but would fill 64K of memory in only 8.3 seconds given that
there would be no time lost to seeking. With ProDOS, you should be
able to create virtual "floppies" of up to 16 megabytes in size as
well, right? This seems like a reasonable way to go for //c users
without an expansion slot.
--
Jason
PZ
Bummer. The simplicity of the Pseudo Disk is whats attractive to me.
I'm perfectly happy with my vintage hardware: transwarp, focus card,
cv ram, futuresound, and 1.44 controller. I don't need a one card
does everything. But a card that would eliminate the need for
degenerative magnetic media is very appealing. Any left for sale?
- Paul
Alex Freed
>
> Alex, correct me if I'm wrong but you're developing mostly for the
> larger //-series, not the //c-series, right?
Yes. CB is for the "normal" A2 slot.
>
> The //c has both a disk interface and an expansion slot. Assuming the
> SVD is even compatible with the //c, it must use the disk interface. I
> presume this would limit the speed of operation to that of the original
> drives -- something like 76.8Kbps, right? This is not fast by today's
> standards, but would fill 64K of memory in only 8.3 seconds given that
> there would be no time lost to seeking. With ProDOS, you should be able
> to create virtual "floppies" of up to 16 megabytes in size as well,
> right? This seems like a reasonable way to go for //c users without an
> expansion slot.
While an interesting project it is outside of the scope of our current
development.
-Alex.
Jason
>> The //c has both a disk interface and an expansion slot. Assuming the
>> SVD is even compatible with the //c, it must use the disk interface. I
>> presume this would limit the speed of operation to that of the original
>> drives -- something like 76.8Kbps, right? This is not fast by today's
>> standards, but would fill 64K of memory in only 8.3 seconds given that
>> there would be no time lost to seeking. With ProDOS, you should be
>> able to create virtual "floppies" of up to 16 megabytes in size as
>> well, right? This seems like a reasonable way to go for //c users
>> without an expansion slot.
>
> While an interesting project it is outside of the scope of our current
> development.
Well, once I figure out a suitable solution for //c video that doesn't
involve a CRT, maybe I'll dust off that old version of CodeVision AVR I
have lying around and see what I can hack together to emulate a floppy
drive, especially if the SVD project falls short. Always did like to
play with microcontrollers -- probably because they remind me of 6502
programming.
People seem to prefer SD cards over CF cards for storage these days.
But if the "virtual disk" was external and connected to the disk
interface port, wouldnt a USB key interface be more useful?
I take it that connectors for the //c disk interface port are not
available, so that the best way to get one is to buy a broken external
//c drive on eBay?
--
Jason
Jason
> I take it that connectors for the //c disk interface port are not
> available, so that the best way to get one is to buy a broken external
> //c drive on eBay?
Never mind on this -- I found a source for DB-19 connectors for $1.58
-- that should do just fine.
--
Jason
Alex Freed
>
> Well, once I figure out a suitable solution for //c video that doesn't
> involve a CRT, maybe I'll dust off that old version of CodeVision AVR I
> have lying around and see what I can hack together to emulate a floppy
> drive, especially if the SVD project falls short. Always did like to
> play with microcontrollers -- probably because they remind me of 6502
> programming.
Check this out:
http://jeanfrancoisdelnero.free.fr/floppy_drive_emulator/index.html#SDCARDFloppyemulator
I think it may be usable almost without changes. All open source and
actively developed.
> People seem to prefer SD cards over CF cards for storage these days.
Small, cheap and only a few wires to interface. What is there not to love?
> But if the "virtual disk" was external and connected to the disk
> interface port, wouldnt a USB key interface be more useful?
Not sure why it would be more useful, but much harder to interface. You
need a USB host controller.
-Alex.
Alex Freed
>
> Never mind on this -- I found a source for DB-19 connectors for $1.58 --
> that should do just fine.
Will you share the info with us?
Steven Hirsch
> I've been looking at this one:
> http://www.ambery.com/rgbcgatovgac.html
>
> Has anyone actually tried it with an LCD? I dug through older topics
> on csa2 and have only seen posts about people inquiring about it. Just
> checking to see if someone pulled the trigger and bought one. $92
> isn't bad if it works.
It probably does - for some definition of "work". Like anything else, it's in
the eye of the beholder. You may well see a display, but with banding and
artifacts present.
a2retro
Hi Alex,
a few years back this stuff was very hard to find but this site looks
like a possible source
https://www.pimfg.com/product_list_kw.asp
Enter DB-19 in the search field
Google also turns up a few hits on the solder cup style right away
Glenn
sfahey
Re: Re: Vintage Computing Advice
> The //c has both a disk interface and an expansion slot. Assuming the
> SVD is even compatible with the //c, it must use the disk interface. I
The SVD can be used with the //c easily enough.
It's all laid out right here:
http://www.thesvd.com/SVD/apple-2c-notes.php
Sean Fahey
www.a2central.com
bbs.a2central.com
Jason
> Jason wrote:
>>
>> Well, once I figure out a suitable solution for //c video that doesn't
>> involve a CRT, maybe I'll dust off that old version of CodeVision AVR I
>> have lying around and see what I can hack together to emulate a floppy
>> drive, especially if the SVD project falls short. Always did like to
>> play with microcontrollers -- probably because they remind me of 6502
>> programming.
>
> Check this out:
> http://jeanfrancoisdelnero.free.fr/floppy_drive_emulator/index.html#SDCARDFloppyemulator
I
>
> think it may be usable almost without changes. All open source and
> actively developed.
Definitely worth looking at in more detail. Thanks for the reference.
>
>> People seem to prefer SD cards over CF cards for storage these days.
>
> Small, cheap and only a few wires to interface. What is there not to love?
>
>> But if the "virtual disk" was external and connected to the disk
>> interface port, wouldnt a USB key interface be more useful?
>
> Not sure why it would be more useful, but much harder to interface. You
> need a USB host controller.
Yes, it would probably require one more chip like the Vinculum VNC1L
which goes for $10.90 from Digikey in single-piece quantities. If one
used an ARM7 or similar, there are existing open source libraries that
implement USB host controllers, but it's probably overkill for such a
project. In the interests of simplicity, I have to agree with you that
the SD card appears to be the best candidate.
--
Jason
a2retro
Jason wrote:
> Yes, it would probably require one more chip like the Vinculum VNC1L
> which goes for $10.90 from Digikey in single-piece quantities.
If you google this news group you will find RedSkull was posting about a
project where he was using this chip. Not sure what became of this project.
I know I was initially interested in this when it first came out a few
years ago, as I have wanted USB on the Apple II for quite a while now.
They originaly did not support direct sector (raw) writing, only read
for debug purposes.
I see now after a quick check of the latest firmware manual they do
support raw reads and writes now but still classified as debug
functionality.
Glenn
Christopher G. Mason
> I've been looking at this one:
> http://www.ambery.com/rgbcgatovgac.html
>
> Has anyone actually tried it with an LCD? I dug through older topics
> on csa2 and have only seen posts about people inquiring about it. Just
> checking to see if someone pulled the trigger and bought one. $92
> isn't bad if it works.
>
> - Paul
Reviews of this unit in other applications (game/arcade console RGB
output) have not been very positive. See:
http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3315.0
Eric Rucker
expansion slot, so you could add a Focus or CFFA for storage, and just
be done with it.
A2Aviator
The Abaton trackball, and Kensington 4.0 ADB turbo mouse doens't
totally function, the Apple adjustable keyboard works only on one
side, and some MacAlly keyboards..
Garberstreet Electronics
"A2Aviator" <a2av...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:cc489d41-15a7-46ca...@a5g2000pre.googlegroups.com
> A small list to avoid:
>
> The Abaton trackball, and Kensington 4.0 ADB turbo
> keyboards..
My favorite ADB trackball is the Kensington Orbit.
Have had no trouble with it at all, other than it
slides around when the desk is dusty, which is more
or less a problem with my lack of housekeeping. ;-)
Garberstreet Electronics
http://www.garberstreet.com
Michael J. Mahon
>>> VGA input). I note that several companies manufacture composite
>>> video to VGA converter boxes for $40-$60. Can anyone comment whether
>>> this produces an acceptable display? I'd prefer to avoid dealing
>>> with an older CRT if I can avoid it.
>>
>>
>> composite-to-VGA converter. This has been discussed to death on
>> earlier threads.
>
>
> I did a bit of digging with Google and found a few threads that touched
> on it. I couldn't find any reference to something like this:
> http://www.ambery.com/vitoxgacoscs.html It seems like the perfect
> solution to avoid using an old monitor or waiting around for some FPGA
> jockey to come up with a hack to read the display memory directly and
> then output a VGA signal. The question is, does it work as well as the
> manufacturer claims?
That's always the question...
Perhaps you'd like to do the experiment and report back? ;-)
(If it works well, its price is excellent.)
>>> Program storage: I understand some people may enjoy the swishing
>>> sound the Disk ][ drive makes when loading programs, but I can live
>>> just fine without managing a large stack of floppies and worrying
>>> about keeping them away from magnetic fields and wondering when they
>>> may go bad on me. I see there is a CFFA adapter for the larger Apple
>>> // computers, and there has been some talk of creating one for the
>>> //c, but it is still presumably vaporware and some time off, no? Are
>>> there any alternatives? I see the 8-bit Atari platform has a nice
>>> adapter (SIO2PC I belive it's called) that allows the Atari to
>>> connect to a modern PC with the PC emulating many different
>>> peripherals simultaneously. Is there anything analagous that will
>>> work on a //c?
>>
>>
>> The SVD is designed to connect directly to a Disk ][ controller.
>> AFAIK, the //c has a different electrical interface that's closer to a
>> SmartPort (is this correct, or am I getting mixed up with something
>> else?)
>
>
> Folks around here seem to be FPGA-happy. Might it not be faster (from a
> development standpoint) to use an inexpensive PIC or AVR microcontroller
> to interface an SD card to the //c or is the added flexibility of an
> FPGA really necessary?
The slow (1MHz) Apple II bus is much too fast for a microprocessor
to handle in a programmed loop. FPGAs easily interface to the bus as
well as embedding a microcontroller if you wish.
> In the meantime, the SVD looks like just the ticket...
Only if you like to do everything with 5.25" disk images...
For anything but games, a virtual hard disk is much more useful.
>>
>> I have an SIO2PC for my Atari 800XL and agree that something of this
>> sort would be helpful for a //c. It would have been ideal if the //c
>> had a functional LocalTalk interface. There is some stub code in the
>> ROM for LocalTalk support, but I don't think it's complete or functional.
>>
>> From everything you've said, I suspect you'd be happier with a //e
>> (although that does not solve the video issues).
>
>
> I always wanted a //c. Given the lack of room in my tiny study, I think
> I'd be better off with a //c right now, though I suppose if I really get
> bitten by the vintage computing bug I might pick up a //e as well. The
> //c+ computers are way overpriced these days and the //gs isn't my cup
> of tea either.
The IIc+ is costlier because it is natively 4MHz accelerated and
can be trivially "overclocked" to 8MHz.
Whether the additional speed is useful depends on whether you use
it primarily to play games or to run other apps or develop programs.
-michael
NadaNet and AppleCrate II: parallel computing for Apple II computers!
Home page: http://home.comcast.net/~mjmahon
"The wastebasket is our most important design
tool--and it's seriously underused."
gozarc...@spamtraphotmail.com
> Video: I'd like to use an existing LCD panel display I have (with VGA
> input). I note that several companies manufacture composite video to
> VGA converter boxes for $40-$60. Can anyone comment whether this
> produces an acceptable display? I'd prefer to avoid dealing with an
> older CRT if I can avoid it.
I use a 15" LCD TV for my 800XL and it's ok. The colors seem a little
subdued. It has composite/s-video/VGA inputs.
Here's a picture of it (if you want I can take a more up close
picture, in fact, I could plug my IIc+ into it and take a picture)):
http://gtia.com/wp/2005/12/29/old-school-meets-new-school/
--
Ryan 'Gozar' Collins
Jason
It would be interesting to see how it works on on the //c+.
For the Atari, I hear the best thing to do is to pick up a set of
custom s-video cables (the 5-pin DIN connector has s-video output on
it) and use that to drive an s-video input or an s-video to VGA
converter box. Others have claimed this works really well. From the
pictures I've seen, I'd have to agree.
--
Jason
Michael J. Mahon
As this website points out, the results for artifact color
are very bad.
Since the graphics in many of the most popular Apple II
games rely on color artifacts (and, in fact, *all* Apple II
color is artifact color), this "solution" would not be very
satisfactory for a gamer.
How is 80-column text? For programmers, this is the critical
question. To be usable, it should be clear and bright, with
letters always rendered the same and with horizontals and
verticals having approximately the same appearance except
for orientation. An absence of color artifact is important.
Michael J. Mahon
S-video represents color information as QAM on a 3.58MHz subcarrier,
so all chroma is fundamentally limited to 3MHz, and practically to
bandwidth in the 1MHz-2MHz range.
The effect is that fine detail can only change color slowly,
so fine vertical lines that have the same luminance (brightness)
levels as their surround, differing only in chroma, will have
their contrast and chroma noticeably diminished.
An excellent example of this fundamental limitation of S-Video is
visible in a DVD of Star Wars connected to a monitor via S-Video.
As the opening text scrolls "back" to infinity, the width of the
font verticals diminishes considerably, and you can easily see that
then characters, gold when wide, fade until all golden color is
gone as they shrink.
This effect does not occur when chroma information is provided
with wider bandwidth, such as with Component or RGB connection.
Jason
Yes -- approximately 160 colors per horizontal line. Still, S-video
looks a lot better than composite video and was quite popular up until
Y2K or so.
> An excellent example of this fundamental limitation of S-Video is
> visible in a DVD of Star Wars connected to a monitor via S-Video.
> As the opening text scrolls "back" to infinity, the width of the
> font verticals diminishes considerably, and you can easily see that
> then characters, gold when wide, fade until all golden color is
> gone as they shrink.
>
> This effect does not occur when chroma information is provided
> with wider bandwidth, such as with Component or RGB connection.
Which 8-bit vintage computers offered component or RGB (same thing)
video output? Certainly neither the 8-bit Ataris nor the Apple //
series. The Atari was ahead of its time by offering s-video output 3
years ahead of anyone else.
With the 8-bit Apple // series, you are limited to composite video
only. Sure, Alex has produced some FPGA-based boards with the ability
to provide VGA output for the //, //+, and //e. This is great if you
have a larger // series and can afford one. For those of us with the
//c, we are stuck with composite video output for now -- at least until
someone finishes one of the pieces of vaporware which were referenced
earlier in this thread.
--
Jason
Eric Rucker
> Which 8-bit vintage computers offered component or RGB (same thing)
> video output? Certainly neither the 8-bit Ataris nor the Apple //
> series. The Atari was ahead of its time by offering s-video output 3
> years ahead of anyone else.
The Apple //c had on-board digital RGB, and there were add-ons to get
RGB on a //e...
Jason
Where are you getting this information from?
The term "digital RGB" is not in common use. The modern DVI (aka DVGA)
interface does separate the RGB signals into separate digitally encoded
components, but the standard did not exist prior to 1999 so clearly the
Apple //c could not have implemented it.
According to the Apple //c Reference Manual, Volume 1, the Apple //c
has two video output connectors:
1) A phono jack with a NTSC-compatible composite video signal.
2) A video expansion connector.
The video expansion connector contains a number of custom outputs,
presumably designed for use with the LCD panel display Apple released
for it. Among the several signals output on this connector, NONE of
them are RGB component video signals (either analog or digital).
The point is that some kind of external conversion device is necessary
in order to display the //c video on a modern VGA or DVI panel display.
In addition, from what others have reported here, most of these
conversion devices fail to take into account the special (e.g.
non-standard) nature of the composite video on the Apple // series.
--
Jason
David Wilson
> Which 8-bit vintage computers offered component or RGB (same thing)
> video output?
I have one!
The Hitachi MB-6890K (aka the Hitachi Peach). It supports monochrome
via an RCA jack and RGB (seven colors + black) via a DIN-8 socket. The
screen resolution was up to 640x200. The manual I have is dated 1983.
Alex Freed
>
> The term "digital RGB" is not in common use. The modern DVI (aka DVGA)
> interface does separate the RGB signals into separate digitally encoded
> components, but the standard did not exist prior to 1999 so clearly the
> Apple //c could not have implemented it.
RGB is sending the color signals on separate wires, right?
"Digital RGB" is when only a logic level rather than voltages are
interpreted on the R, G and B lines. IBM's "CGA" and later "EGA"
standards (way before 1999) were "Digital RGB", but the VGA (later) was
analog RGB.
Apple 2 GS also has an RGB output in addition to composite NTSC.
-Alex.
Jason
I agree with everything you've said above.
But the Apple //c and //c+ do not have RGB outputs, either digital or
analog. I prefer the //c form factor to that of the other members of
the Apple // family so I'm stuck looking for a suitable solution for a
display, preferably not involving a CRT.
--
Jason
Michael J. Mahon
I agree that it is considerably better than composite, mainly because
the luminance bandwidth need not be limited by the chroma subcarrier
frequency.
This permits acceptable 80-column text rendering, though it doesn't
guarantee it (depending on the LCD's resampling of the Apple video).
>> An excellent example of this fundamental limitation of S-Video is
>> visible in a DVD of Star Wars connected to a monitor via S-Video.
>> As the opening text scrolls "back" to infinity, the width of the
>> font verticals diminishes considerably, and you can easily see that
>> then characters, gold when wide, fade until all golden color is
>> gone as they shrink.
>>
>> This effect does not occur when chroma information is provided
>> with wider bandwidth, such as with Component or RGB connection.
>
> Which 8-bit vintage computers offered component or RGB (same thing)
> video output? Certainly neither the 8-bit Ataris nor the Apple //
> series. The Atari was ahead of its time by offering s-video output 3
> years ahead of anyone else.
>
> With the 8-bit Apple // series, you are limited to composite video
> only. Sure, Alex has produced some FPGA-based boards with the ability
> to provide VGA output for the //, //+, and //e. This is great if you
> have a larger // series and can afford one. For those of us with the
> //c, we are stuck with composite video output for now -- at least until
> someone finishes one of the pieces of vaporware which were referenced
> earlier in this thread.
There were a couple of RGB adapters for the //c and //c+ (Video 7 is one
I recall by name). These were small adapters that screwed onto the
video expansion port.
But I was simply stating the primary limitation of S-Video, not
suggesting that you had to go to RGB.
-michael
******** Note new website URL ********
NadaNet and AppleCrate II for Apple II parallel computing!
Home page: http://home.comcast.net/~mjmahon/
sfahey
Re: Re: Vintage Computing Advice
I don't recommend this because it's ridiculously expensive and wouldn't be
practical unless you already had the parts (for other tasks obviously)...
I recently acquired a Dell Mini 9 Netbook, that I immediately converted into a
Hackbook, ie. it runs OS X. I also have an Elgato Hybrid (2009) USB TV Tuner
which is pretty amazing.
When I take my //c Plus to the user group, I put my Dell Mini 9 on top of the
//c Plus, and route it's video through the Elgato and size the screen
accordingly. Yeah... it's small, but it works. I also 2-way split the RCA from
the //c Plus - the other half going to a Epson 77C projector.
With the Dell Mini 9 acting as my display, it's also my ADTPro machine,
Internet connection and whatever else I can think of for the //c Plus. Very
utilitarian and like I said expensive if you didn't already have the stuff for
other purposes.
Sean Fahey
www.a2central.com
bbs.a2central.com
gozarc...@spamtraphotmail.com
> On 2009-05-01 19:16:32 +0700, gozarc...@SPAMTRAPhotmail.com said:
> > I use a 15" LCD TV for my 800XL and it's ok. The colors seem a little
> > subdued. It has composite/s-video/VGA inputs.
> >
> > Here's a picture of it (if you want I can take a more up close
> > picture, in fact, I could plug my IIc+ into it and take a picture)):
> > http://gtia.com/wp/2005/12/29/old-school-meets-new-school/
>
> It would be interesting to see how it works on on the //c+.
I'll post some pics this weekend.
> For the Atari, I hear the best thing to do is to pick up a set of
> custom s-video cables (the 5-pin DIN connector has s-video output on
> it) and use that to drive an s-video input or an s-video to VGA
> converter box. Others have claimed this works really well. From the
> pictures I've seen, I'd have to agree.
Not all Atari 8-bits have the signals going to the 5-pin DIN for S-Video
out. Mine does because I added it. :-) It looks like it's models
produced after August 1984 that have it.
--
Ryan 'Gozar' Collins