IIe Keyboard On A II Plus

[Bill Garber]

It's here everyone. The encoder that lets you use your
spare Apple IIe keyboards on your Apple II and II Plus.

Everything is available on it. Shifted Keys, Escape Keys,
and Control keys. I didn't give the option of RESET only,
you'll have to use Control-RESET, which most of you do
already.

We're taking preorders at the site for $29 in order to get
an idea of the interest there will be before we decide whether
we can get boards with Silkscreening and Soldermask, or
have to get them plain. The more people who want them,
the better the boards will be. So, come to the GarberStreet
web site and have a look at it.

Thanks,

Bill Garber from GS-Electronics
http://www.garberstreet.com

[Steven Hirsch]

Bill Garber wrote:
> It's here everyone. The encoder that lets you use your
> spare Apple IIe keyboards on your Apple II and II Plus.
>
> Everything is available on it. Shifted Keys, Escape Keys,
> and Control keys. I didn't give the option of RESET only,
> you'll have to use Control-RESET, which most of you do
> already.

Now, if someone would only produce a PS/2 or USB to IIe adapter...

[Bill Garber]

"Steven Hirsch" <snhi...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:_oCdne6CW8LOIMDV...@giganews.com...

I'm looking at it now actually. Would you like it yesterday? <[8o|)

[Bhopal BillY]

Does it require that magic "calibration" ;-)

[Bill Garber]

"Bhopal BillY" <nos-pam...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:210620082117414633%nos-pam...@gmail.com...

> Does it require that magic "calibration" ;-)

Well, all I do is plug it in, fire it up, and away I go. <[8o|)

[sfahey]

To: Bill Garber
On 6/21/08 7:44 PM, in article U6udnQXm187_PcDV...@comcast.com,
"Bill Garber" <will...@comcast.net> wrote:

>
> It's here everyone. The encoder that lets you use your
> spare Apple IIe keyboards on your Apple II and II Plus.

Will this work with the Replica-1?

[Bill Garber]

"sfahey" <sfa...@a2central.com.remove-e9u-this> wrote in message news:C4835198.698D%a2...@hotmail.com...

Yes, sir, it absolutely does. Thanks to you, I just tried it,
and although I was sure it would, I did need to test it and
it works, yes.

[Bryan Parkoff]

If you do Google search, you will find couple posts here. PS/2 or USB
keyboard will not work on neither Apple //e or Apple II+ unless you build a
printed circuit. The printed circuit is used to have encoder translation.
The encoder translation picks up all keys from PS/2 or USB and they convert
to Apple II's keyboard.

Bryan Parkoff

[sfahey]

To: Bill Garber
On 6/22/08 9:46 AM, in article fM2dnRm8Y7xU-MPV...@comcast.com,
"Bill Garber" <will...@comcast.net> wrote:

> Yes, sir, it absolutely does. Thanks to you, I just tried it,
> and although I was sure it would, I did need to test it and
> it works, yes.

I thought it would likely work too, but I was more concerned that it would
fit over both revisions of the Replica-1 without bumping into something.

I've been looking for a suitable case for my Replica's, with their expansion
cards... thought about scavenging ][/][+ cases, or using a clone case. I
haven't been willing to sacrifice the original gear or haven't found
something cheap and suitable online in the way of a clone.

But a //e case suits me fine. Thanks for making the adapter.

[Bill Garber]

"sfahey" <sfa...@a2central.com.remove-qaj-this> wrote in message news:C483F07A.69A1%a2...@hotmail.com...

My Replica-1 is marked 2006, and I will be posting a page of pictures
to the web site shortly that shows the adapter plugged in and monitor
with stuff typed in. Don't mind what I actually typed, it's been a while
since I used this thing. <[8o|)

[Steven Hirsch]

Yes, that's the whole point. What you are referring to as a "printed circuit"
is what I mean by "adapter".

[Bill Garber]

"Steven Hirsch" <snhi...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:IuSdnaDp9LVHWcPV...@giganews.com...

"Adapter" is a term meaning, 'to make one thing work with another'.

One example of this is the ROM socket to Eprom which can be purchased
at ReactiveMicro. The IIe KB For Apple II/II+ and Replica-1 is an adapter,
and an encoder.

[a2av...@gmail.com]

Thats freaking kinda cool actually..

I never would have thought that the AY3600 could contain code/be
emulated like that. Too bad that Atmel didn't exist back when.. heck..

[Bill Garber]

<a2av...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fffa1aca-f717-4dbd...@p25g2000pri.googlegroups.com...

> Thats freaking kinda cool actually..
>
> I never would have thought that the AY3600 could contain code/be
> emulated like that. Too bad that Atmel didn't exist back when.. heck..

Actually, this was possible for quite a long time, before Atmel.
Keyboard encoders are microcontrollers. The ATmega8515/L
can do much, MUCH more than encode a keyboard matrix.
This application only uses a little more than $0200 of the total
programming ram, then there is some sram, and eeprom, too.
Then you can add external components, as well.

As Michael Mahon put it, this thing makes the 6502 look like
a toy by comparison.

[Vince Briel]

> My Replica-1 is marked 2006, and I will be posting a page of pictures

Almost vintage!

Vince
Briel Computers
http://www.brielcomputers.com

[Bill Garber]

"Vince Briel" <vbr...@removethisspamdotohdotrr.net> wrote in message news:485f021c$0$3369$4c36...@roadrunner.com...

> > My Replica-1 is marked 2006, and I will be posting a page of pictures
>
> Almost vintage!

Yes, and original, too. I never installed the USB thingy you sent me. <[8o|)

[sfahey]

To: Bill Garber
How about it fitting on the new Replica-1 TE? Will it need a socket riser?

[a2av...@gmail.com]

/me hit me with a clue-by-four.

I never even bothered to think about those encoders as micro
controllers. Hell, and I have documentation not very many others have
even seen.. apparently I've not looked at all of it either.

...and if it's emulating a 16 pin keyboard it should work anywhere,
Franklins, clones, whatever.

Ironically.. those weird ass //e clones that had a 16 pin keyboard
connector instead of the 26 pin.. should be happy now.

I like the original //e keyboard still, the best. I have been clocked
at 110 WPM on that thing. Used to inspire school kids in a room full
of //e's that was at a nearby school, they used them for typing
lessons until about 6 years ago. I'd test keyboards after installing
them, take the lesson book, flip to the back side, and just go for it.
The whole class would gradually stop and be looking 'cause they hear
fast typing and then I'd say something like "if you stop paying
attention to me, instead of that book on your desk, you can type like
this too"

There were usually gasps and wows.. the teacher liked it, I was
convinced the service calls used to get done on 'purpose'.

[Bill Garber]

"sfahey" <sfa...@a2central.com.remove-zeh-this>
wrote in message news:C4852735.69F4%a2...@hotmail.com...

>
> To: Bill Garber
> How about it fitting on the new Replica-1 TE?
> Will it need a socket riser?

Yes, with the PS/2 connector right next to it, but, it shouldn't
cause any problems, I just added 2 machined pin sockets to
the underside of mine, and everything works fine. I buy these
sockets by the tube, so if there should be a need for it, I can
supply risers at no additional cost.

Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

[Bill Garber]

<a2av...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:ce1de9e0-d31d-48b8...@w5g2000prd.googlegroups.com...

> /me hit me with a clue-by-four.
>
> I never even bothered to think about those encoders as micro
> controllers. Hell, and I have documentation not very many others have
> even seen.. apparently I've not looked at all of it either.
>
> ...and if it's emulating a 16 pin keyboard it should work anywhere,
> Franklins, clones, whatever.

That's something I need to do. Test it in my Franklin, who also has
a keyboard that doesn't want to work. Need to dig out an extended
keyboard for that though.

> Ironically.. those weird ass //e clones that had a 16 pin keyboard
> connector instead of the 26 pin.. should be happy now.

Never saw one, but have heard of them. I'm trying to remember if
David Wilson told me that he had one of those. Heck, I'm lucky
that I even remembered who he is, let alone what he has.

> I like the original //e keyboard still, the best. I have been clocked
> at 110 WPM on that thing. Used to inspire school kids in a room full
> of //e's that was at a nearby school, they used them for typing
> lessons until about 6 years ago. I'd test keyboards after installing
> them, take the lesson book, flip to the back side, and just go for it.
> The whole class would gradually stop and be looking 'cause they hear
> fast typing and then I'd say something like "if you stop paying
> attention to me, instead of that book on your desk, you can type like
> this too"

Are you referring to the ones in my pictures? I love this one.

> There were usually gasps and wows.. the teacher liked it, I was
> convinced the service calls used to get done on 'purpose'.

One of my employers used to accuse me of breaking the machines
purposely so I could get service guys in, and have someone as smart
as myself to talk to. Really, the man thought that I was the smartest
guy in the shop. Boy, did I have him fooled. <[8>|)

[Michael J. Mahon]

a2av...@gmail.com wrote:
> /me hit me with a clue-by-four.
>
> I never even bothered to think about those encoders as micro
> controllers. Hell, and I have documentation not very many others have
> even seen.. apparently I've not looked at all of it either.

The older encoders really were just "encoders", not microcontrollers.

Not only were they not programmable (with anything other than a keycode
table), but they were very specialized matrix scanning hardware, made
of counters and decoders--no ALU.

Of course, any modern "encoder" that puts out serial codes, supports
a communication protocol, and has internal state, *is* a specialized
microcontroller.

-michael

AppleCrate: An Apple II "blade server"!
Home page: http://members.aol.com/MJMahon/

"The wastebasket is our most important design
tool--and it's seriously underused."

[Bill Garber]

"Bill Garber" <will...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:2aKdnQkD6ID-TsLV...@comcast.com...

>
> <a2av...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:ce1de9e0-d31d-48b8...@w5g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> > /me hit me with a clue-by-four.
> >
> > I never even bothered to think about those encoders as micro
> > controllers. Hell, and I have documentation not very many others have
> > even seen.. apparently I've not looked at all of it either.
> >
> > ...and if it's emulating a 16 pin keyboard it should work anywhere,
> > Franklins, clones, whatever.
>
> That's something I need to do. Test it in my Franklin, who also has
> a keyboard that doesn't want to work. Need to dig out an extended
> keyboard for that though.

Ok, I got out the Franklin, added 6 more socket extensions to clear
all of the lower case stuff, and whatever else is on that big riser board.

Anyway, it works, although there doesn't seem to be lower case, and
I think I know why, but due to the many uses for this device, I'm not
going to add it. The upper board may not be necessary in the Franklin,
but I'm not sure how easy it is to remove it. I'll have a look at it, and,
if anyone already knows (Michael or Tony or David, or anyone else),
please speak up before I wreck this thing. :o)

[Bill Garber]

"Bill Garber" <will...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:I5udnanzFbR2pf3V...@comcast.com...

Apparently, this has lots of stuff attached to it, because, nothing works
with it off. There are lots of empty sockets under it. Now that's a hack.
Anyway, put about 6-7 riser sockets on the Encoder and, it works ok
with the Franklin Ace 1000 v. 2.2.

[a2av...@gmail.com]

You need to have the capslock key that the Franklin has, otherwise
you're emulating softswitch lowercase.

If the lower case works as is on the //e keyboard with a ][+ and the
lowercase character ROM installed, then it shouldn't be much different
to have it send the right stuff to a Franklin.

[Michael J. Mahon]

But GETLN in the ][ and ][+ monitor converts lower case to upper case,
so BASIC won't see anything but upper case.

To see any lower case, you'll need an application that accepts it from
the keyboard (most will expect the shift key mod).

[Bill Garber]

"Michael J. Mahon" <mjm...@aol.com> wrote in message news:LcednTS2moWPJP3V...@comcast.com...

> a2av...@gmail.com wrote:
> > You need to have the capslock key that the Franklin has, otherwise
> > you're emulating softswitch lowercase.
> >
> > If the lower case works as is on the //e keyboard with a ][+ and the
> > lowercase character ROM installed, then it shouldn't be much different
> > to have it send the right stuff to a Franklin.
>
> But GETLN in the ][ and ][+ monitor converts lower case to upper case,
> so BASIC won't see anything but upper case.
>
> To see any lower case, you'll need an application that accepts it from
> the keyboard (most will expect the shift key mod).

I don't know about that, Mike. If the ROM has the upper 32 codes
defined, then why wouldn't it do it? When I type * PRINT CHR$(65+32)
on the Franklin, it displays "a", and also on my II+ with the Dan Paymar
ROM installed. It would be trivial to program those codes into the encoder.

[Michael J. Mahon]

If you have a lower case character generator ROM, then your machine
can display lower case, but you can't type it into a BASIC program
from the keyboard, even if the keyboard does deliver lower case,
because the monitor routine that BASIC (and a lot of other software)
uses folds lower case to upper case.

[Bill Garber]

"Michael J. Mahon" <mjm...@aol.com> wrote in message news:0aydnRAvsZqQovzV...@comcast.com...

> Bill Garber wrote:
> > "Michael J. Mahon" <mjm...@aol.com> wrote in message news:LcednTS2moWPJP3V...@comcast.com...
> >
> >>a2av...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >>>You need to have the capslock key that the Franklin has, otherwise
> >>>you're emulating softswitch lowercase.
> >>>
> >>>If the lower case works as is on the //e keyboard with a ][+ and the
> >>>lowercase character ROM installed, then it shouldn't be much different
> >>>to have it send the right stuff to a Franklin.
> >>
> >>But GETLN in the ][ and ][+ monitor converts lower case to upper case,
> >>so BASIC won't see anything but upper case.
> >>
> >>To see any lower case, you'll need an application that accepts it from
> >>the keyboard (most will expect the shift key mod).
> >
> >
> >
> > I don't know about that, Mike. If the ROM has the upper 32 codes
> > defined, then why wouldn't it do it? When I type * PRINT CHR$(65+32)
> > on the Franklin, it displays "a", and also on my II+ with the Dan Paymar
> > ROM installed. It would be trivial to program those codes into the encoder.
>
> If you have a lower case character generator ROM, then your machine
> can display lower case, but you can't type it into a BASIC program
> from the keyboard, even if the keyboard does deliver lower case,
> because the monitor routine that BASIC (and a lot of other software)
> uses folds lower case to upper case.

Even if it's between quotes in a PRINT command, say?

And, if so, then we would need to modify the monitor ROM.
Might turn out to be a lot of work, if there isn't a lot of space
in it to provide more firmware.

[Michael J. Mahon]

Bill Garber wrote:
> "Michael J. Mahon" <mjm...@aol.com> wrote in message news:0aydnRAvsZqQovzV...@comcast.com...
>
>>Bill Garber wrote:
>>
>>>"Michael J. Mahon" <mjm...@aol.com> wrote in message news:LcednTS2moWPJP3V...@comcast.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>a2av...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>You need to have the capslock key that the Franklin has, otherwise
>>>>>you're emulating softswitch lowercase.
>>>>>
>>>>>If the lower case works as is on the //e keyboard with a ][+ and the
>>>>>lowercase character ROM installed, then it shouldn't be much different
>>>>>to have it send the right stuff to a Franklin.
>>>>
>>>>But GETLN in the ][ and ][+ monitor converts lower case to upper case,
>>>>so BASIC won't see anything but upper case.
>>>>
>>>>To see any lower case, you'll need an application that accepts it from
>>>>the keyboard (most will expect the shift key mod).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I don't know about that, Mike. If the ROM has the upper 32 codes
>>>defined, then why wouldn't it do it? When I type * PRINT CHR$(65+32)
>>>on the Franklin, it displays "a", and also on my II+ with the Dan Paymar
>>>ROM installed. It would be trivial to program those codes into the encoder.
>>
>>If you have a lower case character generator ROM, then your machine
>>can display lower case, but you can't type it into a BASIC program
>>from the keyboard, even if the keyboard does deliver lower case,
>>because the monitor routine that BASIC (and a lot of other software)
>>uses folds lower case to upper case.
>
>
>
> Even if it's between quotes in a PRINT command, say?

Yes, because the GETLN routine has no knowedge of quotes.

> And, if so, then we would need to modify the monitor ROM.
> Might turn out to be a lot of work, if there isn't a lot of space
> in it to provide more firmware.

Actually, it's a single AND instruction that can be NOPed...
But most users do not have the flexibility of being able to
modify their monitor ROM. (It may also require checksum
compensation to keep picky software happy.)

[David Wilson]

On Jun 25, 1:46 pm, "Michael J. Mahon" <mjma...@aol.com> wrote:
> Actually, it's a single AND instruction that can be NOPed...
> But most users do not have the flexibility of being able to
> modify their monitor ROM. (It may also require checksum
> compensation to keep picky software happy.)

Correct. Looking at my copy of the Red Book, the conversion to
uppercase is labeled CAPTST and looks like:

FD7E C9 E0 CMP #$E0
FD80 90 02 BCC ADDINP
FD82 29 DF AND #$DF

So not only does it convert a-z to A-Z, it also maps `{|}~ and DEL to
@[\]^_

You can either convert FD83 to FF or FD82/3 to EA EA.

[Bill Garber]

"David Wilson" <mcs...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:3b732ccc-9d6d-4243...@a9g2000prl.googlegroups.com...

In the Franklin Ace 1000, FD7E thru FD83 are all EA, so,
that must be one of the things they did along with building
them with lower case. So, if I incorporate lower case into
the encoder, then I would also have to supply them with
modified Character Generator and Monitor ROMs, and
whatever adapters they'd need to make them work in their
Apples. Some revisions take CharGen eproms, but none
take eprom firmware ROMs. What a mess.

Of course, they could buy both a keyboard encoder and
a Dual ROM adapter, and have it all. 8>)