Modify a Mac external HD for a IIgs?
dca...@kearney.net
I have a couple of small Mac external HDs (20 meg & 50 meg) which are
SCSI ('course). Is it possible to get a SCSI card for a IIgs and is
there a way to format the HDs to ProDOS format for use with the IIgs?
(When I choose the ERASE DISK command on the Mac I see no options for
formatting to ProDOS as you do with a floppy. Or is there a
cheaper/better option? Right now the system has only a 3-1/2" disk drive
and a 5-1/4" floppy drive.
Thanks for any replies!
Darre
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---
W Stewart
the 2 most popular are the Apple Hi-Speed and the RamFast with
the Apple Rev C in third place. The Ramfast is still available from
Squential Systems(www.sequential.com), the Apple Hi-Speed you'd
have to find second hand,
You can format and partition a hard drive on a Mac for use on an
Apple II, however “erase disk” is the wrong way to go about it.
The program Drive Setup that came with your System Software
might work although some versions have difficulties with non Apple
brand drives. In a situation like that I much prefer third party software
such as Silverlining, FWB Hard Disk Toolkit, etc.
There’s also Apple II software for doing the same. I believe all the
SCSI cards originally came with software, some like the RamFast have
a built in program in ROM. If you have the IIgs System 6 disks you
have the IIgs Advanced Disk utilities.
Another solution is the Focus Hard Card from Alltech(www.allelec.com).
It's a 2.5" HD attached to an interface card. It'll come formatted with
system software installed and comes in a variety of sizes. Pro's: it's a
fast
fairly inexpensive internal drive. Cons: It's not SCSI, you can't attach
other peripherals.
A IIgs with a HD and a bit of memory is like getting a whole new computer
Wayne
David Empson
> Calling all IIgs experts,
>
> I have a couple of small Mac external HDs (20 meg & 50 meg) which are
> SCSI ('course). Is it possible to get a SCSI card for a IIgs and is
> there a way to format the HDs to ProDOS format for use with the
> IIgs?
Definitely. The main candidates are the RamFast (still being sold) and
the Apple High-speed SCSI card. There is also the older Apple SCSI
card, which is slower and less compatible.
There are also some other third-party which I would not recommend.
The RamFast has built-in firwmare for partitioning hard drives.
With Apple's cards you need to run a separate utility program (under
ProDOS-8). A really awful one is supplied with the card, but there is a
nicer third-party program (Chinook SCSI Utilities) which is now
freeware.
If you are already using the IIgs System Software (GS/OS), and you have
the full set of disks for System 5.0.4 or later, then you can use the
system software to set up the hard drive with either Apple card.
A 20MB drive can be used without partitioning, but if you want to use
the ProDOS file system then you must break a 50MB drive into at least
two partitions. (ProDOS is limited to 32MB per partition.)
> When I choose the ERASE DISK command on the Mac I see no options for
> formatting to ProDOS as you do with a floppy.
I suspect that PC Exchange doesn't support ProDOS partitions on a hard
drive, only on floppies, or they may have just not provided support for
formatting.
The IIgs uses the same partitioning scheme as the Mac, so you can set up
a disk which has both Mac (HFS) and ProDOS partitions. IIgs System 6.0
and 6.0.1 can support the HFS file system for every task except booting,
but only for native GS/OS software. ProDOS-8 is limited to accessing
ProDOS partitions.
> Or is there a cheaper/better option?
Another option is the Focus card sold by Alltech Electronics. See their
web page at <http://www.allelec.com>.
It is a controller card with a piggyback IDE drive mechanism. They are
available in a variety of capacities.
I think a SCSI card would be cheaper, assuming you can find a second
hand Apple or RamFast. A new RamFast is probably still reasonably
expensive. (I haven't seen prices recently - last time I was paying
attention, which was about 1993, they were in the region of US$120.)
--
David Empson
dem...@actrix.gen.nz
Snail mail: P.O. Box 27-103, Wellington, New Zealand
Marc Sira
>I suspect that PC Exchange doesn't support ProDOS partitions on a hard
>drive, only on floppies, or they may have just not provided support for
>formatting.
PC Exchange (File Exchange in Mac OS 8.x) does support ProDOS filesystems in
Inside Mac V partitions; I've used it for years. The partitions will need to
be marked automount by the Mac driver for the device, but this is usually the
case for most drivers. If they're not, you can still mount them using a more
aggressive SCSI tool than Drive Setup (say FWB HDT). Of course, you end up
with GS Finder droppings on the Mac side and Mac Finder droppings on the GS. ;)
Anyone have any suggestions for turning an old 2.5" Powerbook SCSI drive into
an internal GS drive connected to a RAMFast? The standard connector for little
drives seems to be slightly funky, with the power and SCSI lines all in one.
If it can be split up and turned into a normal ribbon cable it should be
straightforward, but I don't have a pinout nor a supplier for 2.5" drive SCSI
cable parts.
--
Marc Sira | t...@victoria.tc.ca
If you can't play with words, what good are they?
Marc Sira
>> PC Exchange (File Exchange in Mac OS 8.x) does support ProDOS filesystems in
>> Inside Mac V partitions; I've used it for years.
>
>original poster) when erasing the disk? I've seen it for floppies, but
>I've never needed to erase a Mac hard drive partition.
It looks as if some of the ProDOS functionality that was in PC Exchange is now
gone from File Exchange (as of Mac OS 8.6, and probably earlier). I can still
mount a ProDOS partition (there's even a nice modern hard disk icon with a
little multicolored "II" on it), but the "Erase Disk..." dialog no longer has
the option to initialise for ProDOS, and I can't even erase an existing ProDOS
partition (the menu option is undimmed but does nothing when selected, which
is rather bad manners and certainly not to HI spec).
>An obvious possibility, given the size of the drives quoted, is that
>Darre is running an older version of the Mac system software, which
>doesn't have PC Exchange. (It was definitely there in 7.5.3, but I'm
>not sure about 7.1.)
I believe PC Exchange came along (with ProDOS support) as of 7.5, and was
superseded by File Exchange (with better FAT support, but less ProDOS) in
8.5 (8.1 on certain machines). Offhand I'd say they're phasing out ProDOS
slowly, which is regrettable (but for that matter they're phasing out regular
HFS in favour of HFS Plus, which is a good thing).
7.1 or 8.5 Mac users can still create ProDOS partitions with an appropriate
tool (like an older third-party hard disk program), but it'd probably be
easier to just do it on the IIgs with a RAMFast or GSOS boot disk. It's also
possible to create a ProDOS partition just by sector-editing the partition
table ("Apple_HFS" becomes "Apple_ProDOS" - love that flexible partition
scheme :) but that still leaves the problem of creating a filesystem.
Finally, one could take the PC Exchange control panel from 8.1, 8.0, or 7.5.3
(which is freely available) and use it to temporarily replace File Exchange
for long enough to "Erase" (initialise) a new ProDOS partition. Should work,
though no guarantees are possible with 8.5 or later.
Marc Sira
>Because you don't use PC Exchange to erase/format/partition Mac hard
>drives. For that you use Apple's "Drive Setup" which comes with each Mac
>on the system disks or system CD-ROM.
The poster was using the Mac Finder's "Erase Disk" menu item, which provides
a choice of the filesystem type to create on a partition or device based on
the alternate filesystem drivers installed (via PC Exchange and the core OS).
Drive Setup creates partition tables as well as installing filesystems (the
latter mostly as a matter of convenience). So no, you don't use it directly
(except to mount fdisk-partitioned disks) but you need it present at boot time
to work with ProDOS.
>Before PC Exchange there was Apple File Exchange. It's on the system disks
>once again.
This was a different (and pretty horrible) sort of tool, but it's worth noting
since it'll probably create confusion with the newly rechristened File Exchange
(which incorporates PC Exchange).
David Empson
> In our last episode, dem...@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) said:
>
> >I suspect that PC Exchange doesn't support ProDOS partitions on a hard
> >drive, only on floppies, or they may have just not provided support for
> >formatting.
>
> PC Exchange (File Exchange in Mac OS 8.x) does support ProDOS filesystems in
> Inside Mac V partitions; I've used it for years.
In that case, why didn't it offer a ProDOS option (for Darre - the
original poster) when erasing the disk? I've seen it for floppies, but
I've never needed to erase a Mac hard drive partition.
An obvious possibility, given the size of the drives quoted, is that
Darre is running an older version of the Mac system software, which
doesn't have PC Exchange. (It was definitely there in 7.5.3, but I'm
not sure about 7.1.)
--
Randy Shackelford
:>Because you don't use PC Exchange to erase/format/partition Mac hard
:>drives. For that you use Apple's "Drive Setup" which comes with each Mac
:>on the system disks or system CD-ROM.
: The poster was using the Mac Finder's "Erase Disk" menu item, which provides
: a choice of the filesystem type to create on a partition or device based on
: the alternate filesystem drivers installed (via PC Exchange and the core OS).
: Drive Setup creates partition tables as well as installing filesystems (the
: latter mostly as a matter of convenience). So no, you don't use it directly
: (except to mount fdisk-partitioned disks) but you need it present at boot time
: to work with ProDOS.
And it comes in handy too if you want to empty a volume with a few thousand
files on it. Plus it's a better way since it'll shrink the desktop file back
down to size when you want an empty volume.
--
Offsite mail to this host gets nuked.
Randy Shackelford
: I believe PC Exchange came along (with ProDOS support) as of 7.5, and was
: superseded by File Exchange (with better FAT support, but less ProDOS) in
: 8.5 (8.1 on certain machines). Offhand I'd say they're phasing out ProDOS
: slowly, which is regrettable (but for that matter they're phasing out regular
: HFS in favour of HFS Plus, which is a good thing).
They won't ever get rid of normal HFS support though, too many CDs and other
disks that won't change format are out there. Plus it's a compatibility thing
with older stuff, although with Jobs running the show I doubt much thought
goes into that.
As far as losing functionality goes, one only need look at the file sharing
permissions from system 7 to 8. There used to be see files, see folders, and
make changes. As of 8.0 it's no access, read, and read/write.
: 7.1 or 8.5 Mac users can still create ProDOS partitions with an appropriate
: tool (like an older third-party hard disk program), but it'd probably be
: easier to just do it on the IIgs with a RAMFast or GSOS boot disk. It's also
: possible to create a ProDOS partition just by sector-editing the partition
: table ("Apple_HFS" becomes "Apple_ProDOS" - love that flexible partition
: scheme :) but that still leaves the problem of creating a filesystem.
I've never seen a way to edit partition names myself. And from what I've seen
the partition name for a ProDOS partition is the same as the volume name,
slash and all. But all HFS ones are APPLE_HFS. In any event, Apple's
formatters as far back as 7.3.5 put a ProDOS savvy driver on disks. Plus an
easy way to make partitions is to make 'em HFS on the Mac and erase 'em into
ProDOS on a IIgs.
I wanted an old driver on my hard disk since I don't care if the ProDOS volume
doesn't mount on a Mac and the APPLE_DRIVER43 partitions from newer formatters
give the finder fits. So I used HD SC Setup 7.3.2 or so and made a 32 mb HFS
and a 200 mb A/UX volume on my disk. Then on the IIgs I erased the HFS to
ProDOS and the A/UX to HFS.
: Finally, one could take the PC Exchange control panel from 8.1, 8.0, or 7.5.3
: (which is freely available) and use it to temporarily replace File Exchange
: for long enough to "Erase" (initialise) a new ProDOS partition. Should work,
: though no guarantees are possible with 8.5 or later.
I say easier to let the IIgs handle that chore.
Marc Sira
>They won't ever get rid of normal HFS support though, too many CDs and other
>disks that won't change format are out there. Plus it's a compatibility thing
>with older stuff, although with Jobs running the show I doubt much thought
>goes into that.
True and true, but I tend to agree with Jobs on that count - the benefit of
backward compatibility has been vastly overstated, and the cost is frequently
very high. Within a year most people have upgraded everything anyway (often
nonsensically, it's true).
>As far as losing functionality goes, one only need look at the file sharing
>permissions from system 7 to 8. There used to be see files, see folders, and
>make changes. As of 8.0 it's no access, read, and read/write.
Ah, but you've never tried to map these to a non-Mac server, like netatalk. ;)
The new ones actually make sense in terms of the eventual filesystem. I do
concede that the old ones were easier to work with, but most of what they did
can still be reproduced under the new scheme.
>I've never seen a way to edit partition names myself. And from what I've seen
>the partition name for a ProDOS partition is the same as the volume name,
>slash and all. But all HFS ones are APPLE_HFS. In any event, Apple's
>formatters as far back as 7.3.5 put a ProDOS savvy driver on disks. Plus an
>easy way to make partitions is to make 'em HFS on the Mac and erase 'em into
>ProDOS on a IIgs.
The only way I know of to edit partition names is to directly edit the
partition table on the (hopefully unmounted!) disk. But that is the ideal
solution, if you happen to have a IIgs.
Marc Sira
>>> PC Exchange (File Exchange in Mac OS 8.x) does support ProDOS filesystems in
>>> Inside Mac V partitions; I've used it for years.
Ok, my final word on this, after some experimentation (this always happens when
I venture into newsgroups I used to read). The problem appears to be with Mac
OS 8.x rather than File Exchange itself; switching back to PC Exchange provides
exactly the same support for ProDOS volumes. You can mount and work with
ProDOS filesystems, but the Mac Finder's "Erase Disk" command doesn't recognise
them, and you can't create one with it as you could in earlier Mac OS versions
(7.5 or possibly 7.6). However, you do still get the option to initialise as
ProDOS when an attempt is made to mount an unrecognised or zeroed filesystem,
with the "Eject or Initialise" dialog. You can also create a FAT filesystem
this way (if you're masochistic). This disparity is probably due to the former
code being in the Finder, and the latter in the System itself.
I haven't actually tested this with 8.1 or 8.0, but my expectation is that
people will eventually run either 7.x or the latest 8.x, and the major Finder
changes happened at 8.0 so that's probably the cutoff point.
Randy Shackelford
:>They won't ever get rid of normal HFS support though, too many CDs and other
:>disks that won't change format are out there. Plus it's a compatibility thing
:>with older stuff, although with Jobs running the show I doubt much thought
:>goes into that.
: True and true, but I tend to agree with Jobs on that count - the benefit of
: backward compatibility has been vastly overstated, and the cost is frequently
: very high. Within a year most people have upgraded everything anyway (often
: nonsensically, it's true).
I'm still using a six year old 840av myself, and am in no rush to upgrade.
It still remains to be seen whether older Pmacs will be dead ends soon and
the new stuff is godawful ugly.
Regardless, it's no big a chore to maintain compatibility with older file
systems, especially plain HFS. It makes more sense to use it over HFS+ until
you reach a gig or so.
:>As far as losing functionality goes, one only need look at the file sharing
:>permissions from system 7 to 8. There used to be see files, see folders, and
:>make changes. As of 8.0 it's no access, read, and read/write.
: Ah, but you've never tried to map these to a non-Mac server, like netatalk. ;)
: The new ones actually make sense in terms of the eventual filesystem. I do
: concede that the old ones were easier to work with, but most of what they did
: can still be reproduced under the new scheme.
There is a mapping which 8 uses. It's only in the file sharing software that
you get the reduced privileges. Presumably with real Appleshare it's the same.
I don't use 8.0/8.1 on anything since it got ugly and slow. And I don't have
anything which will run 8.5.
:>I've never seen a way to edit partition names myself. And from what I've seen
:>the partition name for a ProDOS partition is the same as the volume name,
:>slash and all. But all HFS ones are APPLE_HFS. In any event, Apple's
:>formatters as far back as 7.3.5 put a ProDOS savvy driver on disks. Plus an
:>easy way to make partitions is to make 'em HFS on the Mac and erase 'em into
:>ProDOS on a IIgs.
: The only way I know of to edit partition names is to directly edit the
: partition table on the (hopefully unmounted!) disk. But that is the ideal
: solution, if you happen to have a IIgs.
Didn't know you could block edit the tables, just the volumes. Cool if you can.
Stavros Robert Karatsoridis
> In our last episode, dem...@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) said:
>>> PC Exchange (File Exchange in Mac OS 8.x) does support ProDOS filesystems in
>>> Inside Mac V partitions; I've used it for years.
>>
>>original poster) when erasing the disk? I've seen it for floppies, but
>>I've never needed to erase a Mac hard drive partition.
> It looks as if some of the ProDOS functionality that was in PC Exchange is now
> gone from File Exchange (as of Mac OS 8.6, and probably earlier). I can still
> mount a ProDOS partition (there's even a nice modern hard disk icon with a
> little multicolored "II" on it), but the "Erase Disk..." dialog no longer has
> the option to initialise for ProDOS, and I can't even erase an existing ProDOS
> partition (the menu option is undimmed but does nothing when selected, which
> is rather bad manners and certainly not to HI spec).
You're forgetting something. I can still format 3.5" disks for ProDOS on
my Mac in 8.6, just tried, and it works like a charm. One never could
just erase a partition as ProDOS from the Finder. That has to be done
using Drive Setup. Last time I checked (which was last week, when I
rebuilt my hard drive for 8.6), you still had the option of creating one
or two 32 MB ProDOS partitions on the HD.
Stavros
Randy Shackelford
: You're forgetting something. I can still format 3.5" disks for ProDOS on
: my Mac in 8.6, just tried, and it works like a charm. One never could
: just erase a partition as ProDOS from the Finder. That has to be done
: using Drive Setup. Last time I checked (which was last week, when I
: rebuilt my hard drive for 8.6), you still had the option of creating one
: or two 32 MB ProDOS partitions on the HD.
You need to make sure you try the erase on a volume under 32 mb. It seems
that you can do that but I'd have to plug in an old 20 mb disk to try.
ChuckNewby
>Powerbook SCSI drive into an internal GS drive
>connected to a RAMFast? The standard connector for
>little drives seems to be slightly funky, with the power
You can attache such a drive to a RoadRunner Hard Card, and I think these are
still available. If interested, send an E-Mail to Chuck...@aol.com...
Another way would be to install it into an external case with a special
connector; I have a couple of those left. With this, you need an external data
cable as well, whereas the Roadrunner card can hook internally to the RamFAST,
but you loose the external connectivity of the RamFast.
Chuck Newby
Charlie's AppleSeeds
Chuck...@aol.com
ChuckNewby
Amen to that!
Labelas Enoreth
using disk utilities, especially when encountering a drive formatted with
a non-Apple utility, or a zip disk. The way I've ended up doing it is one
of two ways...
SilverLining, which is kludgy and sucks, in my opinion, because of the way
it seems to 'forget' settings and corrupt stuff...or...
Use HDT to delete any partitions on the disk, and then quit HDT, and quit
the finder (or reboot). You will be prompted if you want to format it
right before the finder finishes loading (right after the extensions
finish) and this will give you the full set of formatting options for it
(ProDOS, DOS, etc).
I believe (and this is just an assumption) that the reason you can't
format them from the finder as prodos is because of the way the MacOS
loads the disk driver when it mounts it...catching it at startup prevents
this.