Bilestoad
James Kyriannis
Well, this is a two-part post. The first part is a request: Does anyone
have the maps for Bilestoad? This game is so old now, I don't think
sending photocopies of the maps would infringe copyright laws, especially
since the company that published the game has probably gone out of
business long ago.
The second part is good news for all who are (have) migrating to PCs.
There's a program available (I >think< it's freeware), called APL2EM --
an Apple II Emulator for the PC. It offers excellent Apple II
emulation, and includes a utility for transfering Apple disks to PCs.
What's great is that all the classics, including Bilestoad, Bolo, Taipan,
etc., can now be played on the PC!
--
=============================================================================
|
Jimmy Kyriannis | +5 Chain Mail --- don't leave home without it.
m-jk...@cs.nyu.edu |
Andy McFadden
>
>Well, this is a two-part post. The first part is a request: Does anyone
>have the maps for Bilestoad? This game is so old now, I don't think
>sending photocopies of the maps would infringe copyright laws, especially
>since the company that published the game has probably gone out of
>business long ago.
This is a classic example of why copyrighted software should NEVER be
redistributed until it is legal to do so.
The author of Bilestoad (who has an Internet address) posted this a
few weeks back...
-----
A brief rundown for the folks in comp.sys.apple2:
I'm the author of The Bilestoad, originally published by Datamost
around 1982-1983. I recently learned on internet that Softdisk
realeased The Bilestoad without my knowledge or permission, and
without paying me any royalties. Datamost only sold about 1500
copies, and defaulted on $4000 of my royalty money at that, which is
why you haven't seen any other games from me over the last 10 years.
Anyways, a thread has started in c.s.m.g, because I'm working on a new
version of The Bilestoad for the Mac II. [...]
-----
The SoftDisk distribution was (probably) illegal. The author deserves to
get paid for his work, but won't if lots of free copies (and copies of the
maps) start floating around. He said he may do a new version for the //gs,
and I suspect he could be convinced to re-release the Apple II version.
(Please don't take this as a personal attack; I know you weren't aware of
this. I'm just throwing this out because of the huge "it's perfectly okay
to copy software from companies which don't exist" battle a month or two ago.)
>Jimmy Kyriannis | +5 Chain Mail --- don't leave home without it.
--
fad...@uts.amdahl.com (Andy McFadden)
[ Above opinions are mine, Amdahl has nothing to do with them, etc, etc. ]
Rich Payne
Wait a minute, he was robbed by the publisher. He did not profit from
the copy's that were -sold-. This is not a piracy issue.
As for the maps, unless they were published in the manual (which I rather
doubt), then they are the creations of whomever compiled them, and they
do have the right to post them. What good are the maps without the game?
I would think that if the game -were- available, then the existance of the
maps would enhance sales.
> He said he may do a new version for the //gs,
>and I suspect he could be convinced to re-release the Apple II version.
>
>(Please don't take this as a personal attack; I know you weren't aware of
>this. I'm just throwing this out because of the huge "it's perfectly okay
>to copy software from companies which don't exist" battle a month or two ago.)
>
>>Jimmy Kyriannis | +5 Chain Mail --- don't leave home without it.
>
>--
>fad...@uts.amdahl.com (Andy McFadden)
>[ Above opinions are mine, Amdahl has nothing to do with them, etc, etc. ]
Rich
Eric E Johnson
>Wait a minute, he was robbed by the publisher. He did not profit from
>the copy's that were -sold-. This is not a piracy issue.
When I talked with Marc via email, he said that there were only about
1600 copies sold. But, I would be willing to bet that there were over
20,000 copies out there. I know, I had one of them. I felt so guilty
about it, that I sent him a check for pirating the game. I suggest
others do the same.
>As for the maps, unless they were published in the manual (which I rather
>doubt), then they are the creations of whomever compiled them, and they
>do have the right to post them. What good are the maps without the game?
I got all the way to the uncharted islands without the maps...
--
Eric E Johnson | "For a successful technology, reality must
ejoh...@a.cs.uiuc.edu | take precedence over public relations, for
eej3...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu | Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Marc Goodman
>When I talked with Marc via email, he said that there were only about
>1600 copies sold. But, I would be willing to bet that there were over
>20,000 copies out there. I know, I had one of them. I felt so guilty
>about it, that I sent him a check for pirating the game. I suggest
>others do the same.
I agree :). The address is:
Marc Goodman
12 Hammond St.
Waltham, MA 02154
>>As for the maps, unless they were published in the manual (which I rather
>>doubt), then they are the creations of whomever compiled them, and they
>>do have the right to post them. What good are the maps without the game?
The maps weren't published in the manual. If people want to
distribute the maps, that would be OK with me. My only problem with
this is that the balance of the game depends on actually learning
where the various disks are located, and if you have a set of maps to
start with, that makes it too easy.
Other stuff: I'm considering sharewareing The Bilestoad. I haven't
decided positively yet, because I need to make sure my rights in the
new version aren't compromised. Also, frankly, the old version looks
kind of crusty and dinosaur-like to me. In still other news, it looks
like I'm probably going to have to take Softdisk to court to get any
money out of them. My position looks pretty clear though, my contract
with Datamost was pretty specific about the rights reverting to me
before they ``sold'' the rights to Softdisk...
For all you aspiring game writers out there, register your copyrights.
It turns out that if a copyright isn't registered, you can sue for
damages, but that's it. If a copyright is registered, however, you
can sue for damages PLUS statuatory damages (which could be as much as
10-20K), PLUS legal fees... And no, the copyright on The Bilestoad
was never registered *sigh*.
-Marc
Rich Payne
>In <+wdmzp_...@netcom.com> pay...@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>
>>Wait a minute, he was robbed by the publisher. He did not profit from
>>the copy's that were -sold-. This is not a piracy issue.
>
>When I talked with Marc via email, he said that there were only about
>1600 copies sold. But, I would be willing to bet that there were over
>20,000 copies out there. I know, I had one of them. I felt so guilty
>about it, that I sent him a check for pirating the game. I suggest
>others do the same.
You deleted the text that I was responding to. The publisher did not pay
the author for the copies of bilestoad that it sold. THIS is why he has
not written any more games for the A//. This is not a piracy issue.
You have changed the subject, and deleted the text that would make this
clear. And why is your 20,000 copy -guess- any better than the hundred
billion dollar losses claimed by the software industry? They have a vested
interest in making the number as high as possible, and I do not trust
their numbers. Now if you actually went out and counted them...
>>As for the maps, unless they were published in the manual (which I rather
>>doubt), then they are the creations of whomever compiled them, and they
>>do have the right to post them. What good are the maps without the game?
>
>I got all the way to the uncharted islands without the maps...
This says nothing about the value/problem of maps. Do you want to be
congratulated or what? Again you deleted the text whixh I was responding to
which claimed that the maps should not have been posted.
You and I are talking about completely different things. Why this
was posted as a response to my post is a mystery to me.
>--
>Eric E Johnson | "For a successful technology, reality must
>ejoh...@a.cs.uiuc.edu | take precedence over public relations, for
>eej3...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu | Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Rich
Eric E Johnson
>You deleted the text that I was responding to. The publisher did not pay
>the author for the copies of bilestoad that it sold. THIS is why he has
>not written any more games for the A//. This is not a piracy issue.
But it is. If the game would have not been pirated, much more money
would have been made for DataMost [I think that they are the ones who
published Bilestoad] and they might have stayed in business.
Regardless, someone lost money by a lot of piracy.
>You have changed the subject, and deleted the text that would make this
>clear. And why is your 20,000 copy -guess- any better than the hundred
>billion dollar losses claimed by the software industry? They have a vested
>interest in making the number as high as possible, and I do not trust
>their numbers. Now if you actually went out and counted them...
Did I count them? No. I did however, attend numerous summer computer
camps, and virtually everyone I met either had a copy of The Bilestoad
with them or had friends who had a pirated copy of it. The pirated
version I had had an incredibly quick load to it, whereas other pirated
versions had a different loading mechanism.
Even the people I talk to at school who had Apple II's said that had a
pirated version of The Bilestoad. If this is an accurate sample of the
status of The Bilestoad, and I believe it is, I don't think its
unreasonable to assume that there was an incredible number of copies
made.
>>>As for the maps, unless they were published in the manual (which I rather
>>>doubt), then they are the creations of whomever compiled them, and they
>>>do have the right to post them. What good are the maps without the game?
>>
>>I got all the way to the uncharted islands without the maps...
>This says nothing about the value/problem of maps. Do you want to be
>congratulated or what? Again you deleted the text whixh I was responding to
>which claimed that the maps should not have been posted.
I had assumed that you wanted the maps for achieving higher islands in
the game. For that purpose, they really aren't needed.
Rich Payne
>In <h5dmpaj...@netcom.com> pay...@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>
>>You deleted the text that I was responding to. The publisher did not pay
>>the author for the copies of bilestoad that it sold. THIS is why he has
>>not written any more games for the A//. This is not a piracy issue.
>
>But it is. If the game would have not been pirated, much more money
>would have been made for DataMost [I think that they are the ones who
>published Bilestoad] and they might have stayed in business.
>Regardless, someone lost money by a lot of piracy.
I do not believe that DataMost was in financial trouble when the Bilestoad
came out. Your assumption that piracy was a major cause is probably
wrong, but untestable, and therefore, not a meaningfull argument. The
lost profits argument -assumes- that everyone who pirates a program could
afford to buy is (no lost profits otherwise). I suspect that most of the
time, this is not the case. And I suspect that the claimed lost profits
exceed the expendable cash of the American public by an order of magnitude.
Note, I am not defending piracy, but I am attacking the lost profits
argument.
None of which has any bearing on the fact that the PUBLISHER screwed the
programs authur, they did not pay for the copies that they sold. Or do you
call this piracy also?
>>You have changed the subject, and deleted the text that would make this
>>clear. And why is your 20,000 copy -guess- any better than the hundred
>>billion dollar losses claimed by the software industry? They have a vested
>>interest in making the number as high as possible, and I do not trust
>>their numbers. Now if you actually went out and counted them...
>
>Did I count them? No. I did however, attend numerous summer computer
>camps, and virtually everyone I met either had a copy of The Bilestoad
>with them or had friends who had a pirated copy of it. The pirated
>version I had had an incredibly quick load to it, whereas other pirated
>versions had a different loading mechanism.
>
>Even the people I talk to at school who had Apple II's said that had a
>pirated version of The Bilestoad. If this is an accurate sample of the
>status of The Bilestoad, and I believe it is, I don't think its
>unreasonable to assume that there was an incredible number of copies
>made.
The problems start when "an incredible number" -becomes- a number, and
the number is used as a fact, and a basis for huge lost profits.
>>>>As for the maps, unless they were published in the manual (which I rather
>>>>doubt), then they are the creations of whomever compiled them, and they
>>>>do have the right to post them. What good are the maps without the game?
>>>
>>>I got all the way to the uncharted islands without the maps...
>
>>This says nothing about the value/problem of maps. Do you want to be
>>congratulated or what? Again you deleted the text whixh I was responding to
>>which claimed that the maps should not have been posted.
>
>I had assumed that you wanted the maps for achieving higher islands in
>the game. For that purpose, they really aren't needed.
You know, we are still talking about different things. Not just here,
but all through both posts. Probably the best thing to do is just to
drop the issue. Or post what you want, but not as a response to my post.
>--
>Eric E Johnson | "For a successful technology, reality must
Rich
Marc Goodman
>I do not believe that DataMost was in financial trouble when the Bilestoad
>came out. Your assumption that piracy was a major cause is probably
>wrong, but untestable, and therefore, not a meaningfull argument.
Datamost was in financial trouble by 1984. My contract with them was
signed on December 28th, 1982. At that point the claimed to be
getting out of the software business, because they couldn't make a go
of it (in spite of programs like Aztec and The Bilestoad).
The Bilestoad was voted one of the most popular games in 1983, in
spite of the fact that both previous games I wrote sold about four
times as many copies. This was IN SPITE OF the fact that by 1982 a
significantly larger customer base existed, since many more apples
were out in 1983-1984 than in 1980, when the first game was published.
This, coupled with the fact that MANY people have told me that there
were large numbers of pirated copies indicates that piracy WAS A
SIGNIFICANT FACTOR in reducing my income. Since I dropped out of the
market because I couldn't earn enough in it, we may therefore infer
that piracy was a contributing factor to me dropping out of the
market.
>The
>lost profits argument -assumes- that everyone who pirates a program could
>afford to buy is (no lost profits otherwise). I suspect that most of the
>time, this is not the case. And I suspect that the claimed lost profits
>exceed the expendable cash of the American public by an order of magnitude.
>Note, I am not defending piracy, but I am attacking the lost profits
>argument.
No, it doesn't assume that everyone who pirates a program would have
bought it. It assumes that SOME SIGNIFICANT FRACTION of the people
who pirated the program would have bought it if they COULDN'T GET IT
FOR FREE. Given the sales on the first two games I wrote, I certainly
believe this to be the case. If The Bilestoad had sold as many copies
as SpaceWarrior or Planetoids (and the very fact that you've probably
never heard of either of those would seem to indicate that it SHOULD
HAVE), then I could have at least paid off my mastercard and recouped
my investment of time in developing the game.
>None of which has any bearing on the fact that the PUBLISHER screwed the
>programs authur, they did not pay for the copies that they sold. Or do you
>call this piracy also?
Cute rhetorical point, but I'm afraid it fails on the facts. Softdisk
did not begin publication until 1986 or thereabouts, long after the
rights reverted back to me and also after ``normal'' sales of the game
had ceased. Datamost did default on $4000 in royalties, but even if
they had paid those, it STILL wouldn't have been as much money as the
previous games, nor enough to recoup the six months I spent developing
the game in the first place.
>You know, we are still talking about different things. Not just here,
>but all through both posts. Probably the best thing to do is just to
>drop the issue. Or post what you want, but not as a response to my post.
Well, now that you know the facts, I can't imagine that you'd want to
belabour your point any longer.
Daniel Demaggio
==========================================
Hi! Welcome to the comp.sys.apple2 newsgroup!
This article contains the answers to some Frequently Asked Questions
(FAQ) often seen in comp.sys.apple2. I am posting this article (once every
three weeks or so) to help reduce the volume in this newsgroup and to provide
hard-to-find information of general interest.
I hope it answers some of your questions. If you have other questions,
feel free to e-mail me.
Dan DeMaggio (dm...@caen.engin.umich.edu) June 9,1992
Table of contents
-----------------
Part I: The Net
- What is c.s.a2? What is INFO-APPLE? (Why is there air?)
- What is c.b.a2? (Binaries only please)
- FTP sites and e-mail servers (or How To Get Great Programs for Free!)
- File name extensions (How to ID a file)
- Archivers and decoders (What they are useful for)
- Downloading (Term programs and download protocols)
- Field guide to file formats (How to ID a file part II)
Part II: Apple stuff
- What is an Apple II? (common configurations and additions)
- Frequently Asked Questions (IBM+HFS disks, HD drives, computer versions)
- GS System 6.0 Notes (from the experts)
- What the Apple II can do (ideas for adding to your system)
- Apple II resources (Places supporting the II)
- troubleshooting (90% of problems can be solved with these hints)
- SCSI Notes (Notes on dealing with SCSI)
Topic: What is comp.sys.apple2? What is INFO-APPLE?
====================================================
Comp.sys.apple2 is a Usenet newsgroup that was created for the discussion
of the Apple II series of computers. This forum provides a way for interested
people to compare notes, ask questions, and share insights about Apple IIs.
Each message gets passed on to tens of thousands of systems around the world
that make up Usenet.
INFO-APPLE is a mailing list that is maintained on some networks other
than Usenet. Comp.sys.apple2 messages are sent to INFO-APPLE and INFO-APPLE
messages are sent to comp.sys.apple2. The central location of INFO-APPLE is
at apple.com.
Thank you, Apple Computer!
Comp.sys.apple2 is also accessed by users of ProLine bulletin board
systems. ProLine systems run, appropriately enough, on Apple II computers.
ProLine users account for a large group of participants on comp.sys.apple2.
Using ProLine's Conference System, users can read and reply to articles on
comp.sys.apple2, as well as many other Usenet newsgroups. And since ProLine
systems have UUCP/Internet access, users can also exchange electronic mail
with people world-wide.
To subscribe (or (sadly) unsubscribe) to INFO-APPLE, send your request to
the info-appl...@apple.com address. Please do not send subscription
requests to info-...@apple.com - it is doubtful that you will achieve what
you are attempting!!!! There is no need to subscribe to INFO-APPLE when you
are getting comp.sys.apple2, since the messages are identical.
To post a message to the thousands of readers of INFO-APPLE (and
comp.sys.apple2) subscribers send their messages to one of the following
addresses: info-...@apple.com OR comp-sy...@ucbvax.berkeley.edu. To
post programs to be used by thousands of grateful readers, send the
appropriately formatted mail to one of the following addresses:
comp-binar...@ucbvax.berkeley.edu. Source code in AAF format should go
to comp-sour...@ucbvax.berkeley.edu
[There is no need for comp.sys.apple2 users to do this - they can use the
standard posting features of Usenet.]
On BITNET, INFO-APP@NDSUVM1 (aka VM1.Nodak.Edu) is available through the
LISTSERV on NDSUVM1 to distribute the Apple II discussion mail and
APPLE2-L@BROWNVM distributes messages dealing with programs. They work by
maintaining a private list of users who wish to see the messages in their
mailbox.
The appropriate place for posting equipment for sale is in the Usenet
groups misc.forsale.computers, misc.forsale, or misc.wanted.
Topic: comp.binaries.apple2 and comp.sources.apple2
=====================================================
Comp.binaries.apple2 is a newsgroup used to distribute public domain,
freeware, and shareware Apple II software (executables, pictures, sounds,
etc...). Software distributed on comp.binaries.apple2 is expected to be a
BinSCII text file of ShrinkIt archives. [See later in the FAQ for information
on getting these programs.]
Comp.sources.apple2 is a newsgroup used to distribute public domain,
freeware, and shareware Apple II source code. The posts in
comp.sources.apple2 should be in Apple Archive Format. Contact
j...@paul.rutgers.edu for details.
Discussions concerning the software posted in these groups, or the
methods of locating, decoding, or accessing this software, or questions on
locating archive sites of this software, or any OTHER discussions are to be
held in comp.sys.apple2. If someone DOES either intentionally or accidentally
post to these groups, please respond only in Email - do not compound the
problem! We may switch to a moderated group eventually.
Note: Distributing commercial software on the net is a crime - just don't
do it!
Topic: e-mail to other services
==========================================
Compuserve: Enter the Compuserve address, replacing commas with periods,
and tack "@compuserve.com" to the end. America Online: Enter the America
Online address, followed by "@aol.com". Do not use uppercase letters in the
AOL name.
Topic: Anonymous FTP sites and e-mail servers
==========================================
FTP stands for File Transfer Protocol. It allows one Internet computer to
access files on another site. Many sites archive software and make it
available via Anonymous FTP. The following is a list of sites with Apple //
related files.
Site name Internet address Relevant Directory
--------- ---------------- ------------------
apple2.archive.umich.edu 141.211.164.153 /archive/apple2 ($)
bric-a-brac.apple.com ftp.apple.com
avalanche.berkeley.edu 128.32.234.22 /pub/Apple2 (IIe emulator)
brownvm.brown.edu 128.148.128.40 LISTSERV.193 ($) (*)
bull.cs.williams.edu 137.165.5.2 /pub/AppleII
cnam.cnam.fr 192.33.159.6 /pub/Archives/comp.binaries.apple2
/pub/Archives/comp.sources.apple2
cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu 128.59.40.129 KERMA
f.ms.uky.edu 128.163.128.6 /pub/appleII ($)
ftp.apple.com 130.43.2.3 /dts/aii
ftp.hawaii.edu 128.171.43.7 /incoming/apple2 (@)
ftp.cc.utexas.edu 128.83.136.13 /gifstuff/apple
ftp.tohoku.ac.jp 130.34.8.9 /pub/news/comp.binaries.apple2 (@)
grind.isca.uiowa.edu 128.255.19.233 //apple2 (@)
headcrash.berkeley.edu 128.32.234.31 /pub/Apple2
hp4nl.nluug.nl 192.16.202.2 /pub/newsarchive/comp/sources/apple2
isca02.isca.uiowa.edu grind.isca.uiowa.edu
j.cc.purdue.edu 128.210.9.2 /kermit/appleII
jyu.fi 128.214.7.5 /pub/apple2
mcsun.eu.net 192.16.202.1 /pub/newsarchive/comp/sources/apple2
methan.chemie.fu-berlin.de 130.133.2.81 /pub/doc/faq (@)
nic.funet.fi 128.214.6.100 /pub/archive/comp.sources.apple2
pindarus.cs.uiuc.edu 128.174.240.84 /pub/apple2
plains.nodak.edu 134.129.111.64 /pub/appleII ($)
relay.cs.toronto.edu 128.100.3.6 /pub/lists.1989 (@)
shark.nosc.mil 128.49.80.1 KER*MIT.
syr.edu 128.230.1.49 /software/kermit/appleII
tiberius.cs.uiuc.edu 128.174.240.8 /apple2
trantor.ee.msstate.edu 130.18.64.2 /files/appleII
tybalt.caltech.edu 131.215.139.100 /pub/apple2 ($)
ucrmath.ucr.edu 138.23.146.21 /PC/apple2
watsun.cc.columbia.edu 128.59.39.2 /kermit/a
wsmr-simtel20.army.mil 192.88.110.20 PD2:<ARCHIVES.APPLE>
wuarchive.wustl.edu 128.252.135.4 /systems/apple2 ($)
/usenet/comp.binaries.apple2
/usenet/comp.sources.apple2
[$] These are the "major" sites--those with many files.
[@] These are the "small" sites--those with few Apple II files.
[*] Files on brownvm.brown.edu are stored by serial number. For a
human-readable directory, send e-mail with the text "INDEX APPLE2-L" to
LIST...@brownvm.brown.edu.
Subtopic: A quick blurb on Anonymous FTP
------------------------------------------
You should be able to find some documentation on FTP at your site.
Anonymous FTP is just FTP, except you login as a guest on the remote system.
As a guest, you must not abuse your privileges: Only use the site at off peak
times: i.e. after 6pm their time. (Yes, these sites are all over the world:
fr=France, jp=Japan). Here's a summary of the main FTP commands.
What you see What you type Comment
-------------------- ------------------- -----------------------------
PROMPT% FTP (at your unix/VMS prompt)
FTP> open f.ms.uky.edu substitute the site name
username? anonymous to login as a guest
ident? dm...@engin.umich.edu type your e-mail address
FTP> type binary set binary mode to on
FTP> ls to list files
FTP> dir another way to list files
FTP> cd /pub/apple2 to go into a directory
FTP> get file.ext to get a file
FTP> close close connection
FTP> quit leave FTP
Subtopic: Apple II-related Electronic Mail servers
------------------------------------------
[users who have access to FTP should not need to use the e-mail servers]
APPLE2-L is an software archive of Apple II programs provided by a BITNET
mail server. To get help, send mail with a body of 'help' to
LIST...@BROWNVM.BITNET. You can also send the message 'INDEX APPLE2-L' for a
long listing of the Apple 2 archives. To get a program (BinSCII in this
example), send the message 'get APPLE2-L 89-01123'. The file will come by
return e-mail in text format. Most of the files come in BinSCII format
(except BinSCII, of course-- it's in EXE format). Note that many sites have a
maximum size on e-mail, so be sure to check the size of the file (the nrecs
column) before getting it. The server may break up files for you (and you
must piece them together before decoding them).
Chris Chung <CHRIS@BROWNVM> administers APPLE2-L. (Thanks Chris!)
There is also the server at plains.nodak. Send e-mail with the body
'help' or 'index appleII' to archive...@plains.nodak.edu for details.
Note that these e-mail servers must do more work than FTP servers, and
they can cause quite a bit of traffic on the networks. Do not abuse them by
requesting large files. For alternatives, check the 'Apple II resources' part
of the FAQ.
---------Internet------------- ----------BITNET--------
archive...@plains.nodak.edu FILESERV@PLAINS (BITNET)
KER...@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu KERMSRV@CUVMA (BITNET)
LIST...@brownvm.brown.edu LISTSERV@BROWNVM (BITNET)
LIST...@utarlvm1.uta.edu LISTSERV@UTARLVM1 (BITNET)
{umn-cs, ogicse, uunet}!plains!archive-server (UUCP)
Subtopic: Archie, the archive searcher
------------------------------------------
There is a program called archie that allows you to search many archives
quickly. Look for the program 'archie' or 'xarchie' at your site, or you can
telnet to archie.mcgill.ca, and login as archie (there is online help). If
you are not on the Internet, you can send mail to arc...@archie.mcgill.ca
with the subject of "Help".
Topic: Some common filename extensions
==========================================
Many times, people put filename extensions (extra characters at the end
of a filename) to denote what type of file it is. Please note that these are
just accepted standards. If a file does not indicate it's type, see the
'Field guide to file formats'. The following is a table of some common Apple
// filename extensions. See the section on 'Archivers and decoders' for
programs that will deal with these files.
Extension What is it? (What program do I use?)
--------- ---------------------------------------------------------------
.SHK NuFX archive. (Shrinkit)
.SDK NuFX with a shrunk disk image. (Shrinkit)
.exe Executioner file [TEXT]. May only work in DOS 3.3.
.Z Compressed file (GS Shrinkit or Unix uncompress)
.tar Unix Tape Archive (Unix tar [with -xvf option, GS EXE tar])
.txt [TEXT] An ASCII text file: usually english text.
.aaf [TEXT] Apple Archive Format for source code (aaf.unpacker)
.uu Unix uuencode file [TEXT] (uudecode or Unix uudecode)
.GIF Graphics Interchange Format: Compressed picture.
(IIGIF for //e, many programs for all other computers)
.LZH LZH Archive (IBM/Amiga LZH program)
.LHA LHA Archive (IBM/Amiga LZH program)
.QQ BLU archive. (Shrinkit)
.BSC BinScii file. [TEXT] (BinScii)
.BSQ BinScii'ed NuFX file. [TEXT] (BinScii, Shrinkit on the result)
.BXY NuFX archive with a Binary II header. (Shrinkit)
.BNY BLU archive. (Shrinkit)
.BQY NuFX with BLU header. (Shrinkit)
.BNX NuFX with BLU header. (Shrinkit)
.ACU NuFX (Shrinkit)
.HQX Mac BinHex file. [TEXT] (BinHex on Mac or GSCII+)
.SIT Mac StuffIt archive. (Stuffit on Mac or GS ShrinkIt)
GS Shrinkit will not decode StuffIt Deluxe files.
.CPT Compactor Pro archive (Compactor Pro on a Mac only)
.SEA Self-extracting archive (Mac only)
.ARC IBM Archive (GS Shrinkit or DeArc2E or IBM Arc program)
.ZOO IBM Zoo Archive (GS Shrinkit??? or IBM ZOO program)
.ZIP IBM Zip Archive (UNZIP [GS Shell EXE]or IBM PKUNZIP or Unix unzip)
.JPEG Newer graphics format. (only Unix/IBM/etc viewers)
.JPG Newer graphics format. (only Unix/IBM/etc viewers)
.TIFF Graphics format (GS SHR Convert)
All of these types, except the ones marked [TEXT] are BINARY files.
Binary files cannot be sent over e-mail, posted to the newsgroups or FTP'd in
text mode. You can FTP them if you set 'type binary'. You can also download
them using x,y or z-modem.
Generally, anything labeled as 'Archive' will contain multiple files, and
even subdirectories. Most archives are also in compressed format.
Sometimes you will find multiple filename extensions. Simply take the
filename extensions apart one at a time and you should be able to reconstruct
the original file. (i.e. file.bsq.tar.Z would mean: uncompress, untar,
unbinscii, unShrink to get the original file!)
Topic: Archivers and decoders
==========================================
Subtopic: BinSCII
------------------------------------------
BinScii converts binary files to text files and back. Binary files
contain pictures, computer programs, etc. Text files usually contain human
readable text (like this file), but a BinSCII file just looks like a jumble
of letters and symbols. A BinScii text file is larger than the original
binary file. Binscii is needed to transfer programs across the network when
there is no binary mode (like the Usenet newsgroups and e-mail).
When turning a binary file into text, BinSCII will output a series of
files. Each file contains a segment of the original program encoded in
BinSCII format. These segments are small enough to be posted or e-mailed
without clogging the network. (Actually, they are usually posted 3 at a time
to save bandwidth).
When re-creating a binary file from the BinScii segments, all one has to
do is collect ALL the segments and run them through BinScii. Each segment has
a header that tells BinScii which segment it is. BinScii is intelligent
enough to wade through all extraneous text (i.e. newsgroup headers, etc) and
find the segments. It does not matter what order the segments are in, and the
segments can be in different files. The only thing you have to remember is
that BinScii does not check to see if ALL of the segments have been accounted
for. If there are segments missing, the program will not work, or more likely
you will get a 'file corrupted' error when unshrinking.
GS users can use GSCII+, an NDA version of Binscii. GSCII+ can also
encode/decode several other formats.
[ Note that most files on the network are NuFX archives that have been
BinSCII'ed so they can be posted. After running Binscii, you will still need
to run ShrinkIt on the resulting file.]
For those of us on Unix boxes who are able to transfer binary files to
our Apple ][, SciiBin can reduce the time spend downloading. It is a
decode-only version of BinSCII written in C. The idea is that you compile
this on your Unix box, and run your BinScii files from comp.binaries.apple2
through it. It will re-create the original (smaller) file. This works great
if there is a NuFX archive in the BinSCII file, but can cause problems if
BinSCII was applied directly to ProDos executable files. (Unix has no way of
storing the ProDos file type and aux type of a file, so they simply get lost.
See the section on filetypes.
If you need a Unix BinSCII encoder, Bsc will do the trick. The source
code is in the file c.aaf ("Apple archive format") is in the various
comp.sources.apple2 archive sites as well as on tybalt in the directory
/pub/apple2/source.
Subtopic: ShrinkIt and NuFX archives
------------------------------------------
ShrinkIt is an Apple II program which takes one or more Apple II ProDOS
files or disks and 'archives' them into a single file (called a NuFX
archive). It also stores all the vital ProDos information, such as filetype
and auxtype. Usually these files are denoted by putting a ".SHK" extension on
the archive. ShrinkIt can also shrink an entire disk into a file (extension
".SDK"), but this is only used when the disk is not ProDos. ShrinkIt is also
a menu driven utility that compresses/extracts, but also formats disks,
copies files, etc. ShrinkIt can also extract programs with Binary II headers,
and files in BLU archives.
GShk is a version of ShrinkIt for GS computers. This is even more of a
wonder utility in that it extracts many different archive types (Unix
compress, PC Arc, Mac StuffIt, Apple Single). Files encoded with GShk are
usually smaller than those encoded with ShrinkIt, but can still be extracted
with ShrinkIt (except files with resource forks).
ShrinkIt+ and UnShrinkIt+ are programs for the Apple II+ that allow an
Apple II+ user to create NuFX archives and extract from them. Autounshrink is
a NuFX extractor that attempts to recover from errors within an NuFX file.
Subtopic: Executioner
------------------------------------------
Executioner was the standard program previous to BinSCII for converting
Apple II files into text to be mailed/posted. It is no longer considered the
standard for most transferals of Apple II binary files. Presently,
Executioner is typically only used to distribute BinSCII. Some older files in
the various archives may also be encoded with this program. Many of them will
not work under ProDos.
To translate an Executioner text file to an Apple II file required that
you delete the mail headers/trailers, translated the newlines into carriage
returns, download the file to your Apple II and from Applesoft Basic, type
the command 'EXEC <filename>' where <filename> is the name of the file you
downloaded.
Subtopic: Apple Archive Format (aaf)
------------------------------------------
Apple Archive Format was invented as a standard way to post source code
to comp.sources.apple2. The C and Basic source code to aaf unpackers are
available on the various FTP sites, in aaf format. Fortunately, files in aaf
format can be turned back into source code with a simple text editor. Just
break the file up into component files and remove the first character of each
line.
Subtopic: Net standard formats
------------------------------------------
There are several formats that are used widely on the Internet. The most
common in FTP sites are tar (.tar) and compress (.Z). To undo a Tape ARchive,
type 'tar -xvf filename.tar'. To undo a compress, type 'uncompress
filename.Z'. Since tar does not make the file smaller, and compress can only
compress 1 file, many times you will find files that are 'tarred an
feathered'. They have a '.tar.Z' extension. Just run uncompress then un-tar
the result.
To distribute binaries on the net, most other groups use uuencode (c.b.a2
uses BinSCII). To return them to normal, type 'uudecode filename'. Note that
uuencoded things were not meant to be split up and posted, so when getting
multiple parts, you will have to paste them together and run them through
uudecode. (BinSCII is a lot smarter, that's why we use it on c.b.a2.)
Most of these 'Unix' standard formats are available on the Apple. For
example, ShrinkIt GS will uncompress files, there is a uudecode for the //e,
and Tar is available as a GS shell executable.
Subtopic: A quick note about ProDos filetypes
------------------------------------------
ProDos keeps some information about a file's type. Files can be text
(TXT), binary (BIN), executable (SYS), fonts (FON), etc. Most other file
systems do not have a place to store this information, so it may get 'lost'
when you upload the file. Similarly, when you download a file, you may not
know the file type. Most comm programs will use some default. For NuFX
archives, this is not a big deal, since you can still unpack an archive if
the filetype is wrong (and the archive stores the filetype of the files
inside the archive). For other files, you may need to change the file's type.
One utility I recommend is File Attribute Zapper II.
All of the above programs are available via FTP (tybalt and/or
archive.umich) A quick author/version summary and compatibility chart:
Program Format Author
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nulib v3.21 C Andy McFadden (fad...@uts.amdahl.com)
SciiBin v1.30 C Marcel Mol, Dave Whitnet, Bruce Kahn
Bsc v1.1 C Neil Parker
Executioner A Glen Bredon
BinSCII v1.0.3 A David Whitney (dav...@microsoft.com)
ShrinkIt v3.3 A Andy Nicholas (shri...@apple.com)
(Un)ShrinkIt+ A Andy Nicholas (shri...@apple.com)
AutoUnShrink A Andy Nicholas (shri...@apple.com)
GShk v1.0.4 G Andy Nicholas (shri...@apple.com)
GSCII+ 2.3.1 G Darek Taubert ()
Format:
C - Distributed as source code written in C.
A - Executable, runs on most Apple //s.
G - Executable, runs on GS only.
|Type| NuFX | Bin | uuen-| com- | tar | Bin | LZH/| Stuff| ARC | aaf |
Program | | | SCII | code | press | | Hex | LHA | -It | | |
--------|-|------|------|------|-------|-----|-----|-----|------|-----|-----|
Nulib |C| X | | | | | | | | | |
SciiBin |C| | D | | | | | | | | |
Shrinkit|A| X | | | | | | | | | |
GShk |G| X | | | D | | | | D | D | |
BSC |C| | E | | | | | | | | |
GSCII+ |G| | X | X | | | D | | | | X |
(Key: E = Encode only, D = Decode only, X = Encode and Decode)
(Type: C = C Source code, A = Apple //e, G = GS Only, E = GS EXE file)
Topic: How to get stuff off the net:
==========================================
This is a tricky question. You will have to look around for what
resources you can get your hands on. You can break it down into two steps.
Step 1: Get the file to your online account. Step 2: get the file to your ][.
Step 1 depends on what type of account you have.
-Most people with Internet accounts will be able to do FTP. See the
section on FTP sites.
-If you get comp.binaries.apple2, you can use your newsreader to save the
articles to your account.
-BITFTP is a way of doing FTP by e-mail. See the section on FTP sites for
details.
-Somebody could e-mail you a file.
Once you have the file on your online account, you may want to run
uudecode, uncompress, tar, SciiBin, Nulib, etc on the file. See the section
on Decoders and archivers for details. By far, most Apple // files are
transferred around in either .SHK (NuFX) or .BSQ format. I recommend getting
SciiBin to turn your .BSQ files into .SHK files for 3 reasons: 1) The archive
is smaller than the original files, and a LOT smaller than BinScii files. 2)
One file can hold all the files and documentation for the program. 3) The
archive keeps the ProDos filetype information.
Step 2 also has a variety of options:
a) If your ][ has a modem, you may be able to download it directly. There are
a variety of downloading protocols (both sides must support the same
protocol). Kermit is slowest, but can work over a 7 bit network. X-modem
is faster and available just about everywhere. Y-modem and Z-modem are
even better. (the Unix command for zmodem is usually 'sz'). Sometimes
downloading can be tricky if you are not familiar with your terminal
program.
b) If you can get the files to a Mac (maybe it is on the net or has a modem):
If you have a GS, just use System 6's HFS FST directly on the Mac Disks.
If you have a //e with a 3.5" drive, you can do the same thing with the
program a2fx or HFSLink. If you can't find those, you can use the
Macintosh Apple File Exchange program to put the data onto a ProDos disk,
but it is SLOW.
c) If you can get the files to an IBM (maybe it is on the net or has a
modem): If you have a PC Transporter, you are all set. Otherwise, use
Apple File Exchange on the Mac to copy the files from MS/DOS directly
onto a ProDos disk.
Once you get the file to your Apple, you have to undo any encoding (i.e.
run ShrinkIt). Alternately, you may have to change the ProDos file type. One
easy to use program is File Attribute Zapper II (FAZII).
Subtopic: Communications programs
------------------------------------------
If you go for route (a) above, you will need a communications program on
your Apple //. Most of the time, the program is simply a 'dumb terminal'
putting characters on the screen and sending them out the serial port to the
modem. There are two areas where the program actually DOES something:
terminal emulation and downloading. Emulation is where your computer pretends
to be a certain type of terminal. By far, the standard is VT-100. This allows
the other computer to do nice effects on your screen, like clear it or move
text around. If your program doesn't support it, your screen may look funny,
and you will see ]'s and ;'s where the remote computer is trying to make the
screen look nice. IBM's use a special character set and variation of VT-100
called ANSI. ProTerm supports a subset of this (no graphics) and calls it
ProTerm Special Emulation (PSE).
The other time your term program matters is when you are trying to
download. By far, the Apple ][ standard is X-modem. It allows a file to be
sent across a modem with an error correction protocol. New variations are
Y-modem and Z-modem. These are very, very nice and should be used where
possible. Note that both sides have to support it in order to use it. There
is also a protocol called Kermit. You are probably better off using X-modem,
but sometimes it is useful.
Program Comp Emulations Protocols Note
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ProTerm E$ PSE, VT-100 Kermit, X,Y,Z-modem From InSync
Kermit-65 E VT-100 Kermit, X-modem Hard to use,Works on ][+
Z-Link E VT-100 X-modem Good.
CommSys E none X-modem Works on ][+
TIC E$ VT-52 (+) X-modem For hackers. From Q-Labs
Agate E mono ANSI X,(Y,Z rec'v only) Unpacks ZIP, Buggy
ColorTerm GS color ANSI X-modem Desktop based
MegaTerm GS color ANSI none ProDOS 8
ANSITerm GS$ color ANSI, PSE X,Y,Z-modem Haven't seen it.
SnowTerm GS VT-100 (+) none Desktop based
FreeTerm GS none X-modem Desktop based
GenComm GS none none Text, Shell Compat.
GSVT GS VT-100 none Desktop
GTerm GS color ANSI none Written in BASIC/ML
Telcom GS VT-100, PSE X, (Y rec'v only) Shell compat
----------Key:---------
Key: $ = A commercial program
Computer: E = works on GS and //e, GS = only works on GS
All of the non-commercial programs are available on the different FTP
sites. If you don't have a comm program already, your best bet is to have
someone mail you one on a disk.
Topic: A Field guide to file formats
==========================================
Here is a simple guide to help you identify a file. You should always go
by filename extension first, but not everybody uses those. In Unix, you can
use the 'head' command to look at the first couple of lines of a file. If it
turns out to be a binary file, you may be in for a nasty surprise. You may
want to use the Unix 'file' command to find out if it is a text file or not
first. Once you have identified the file, see the section on filename
extensions for how to deal with it.
If the first few lines of a file look like this:
FiLeStArTfIlEsTaRt
ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz0123456789()
GBINSCII AQhmAAAAA8)4MIAI02DA9ARMQEDtAQhmAIVZ
gYITA6u7xADA0MjM3YTNBlDOENkQwYURzITM2UDN5gzNDJUQGVERyEDM1QzM4cjN
CFUOFR0QxAjR0MjM3YTNBlDOENkQwAQRzITM2UDN5gzNDJUQGVERyEDM1QzM4cjN
..
then you've got something encoded by BinSCII. You must decode _all_ the
parts using BinSCII before attempting to extract using ShrinkIt.
On the other hand, if you have a binary file which resembles:
NuFilei][![/#NuFX_<:c[[[ H`F-fGSCII~[
cRJ0)fNN^P)3'A2p6SF6X#GPd<9#'LC^08N7n\NB7Dd!eMN&eYX0Am=fXp
d@PAsp7rh`I'NS0ALAfi2)2ysGEQ$k9CP%L9
...
then you have a NuFX file (note the key words NuFile and NuFX). You
should be able to extract the files it contains using ShrinkIt.
On the third hand, if you have a text file which resembles:
begin 666 nonsense.bny
M4W5N3U,@4F5L96%S92 T+C$@*%-$4U0V,"D@(S@Z(%1U92!/8W0@.2 Q,CHS
M...3HT.2!%1%0@,3DY, HT
then you have a uuencoded file.
On another hand, if you have a text file which begins with
(This file must be converted with BinHex 4.0)
:$&4)48C28N0&,P0*9!"6593K8dP8)3%!!!#L@!!!!!!Qie0*9#%!!3!!SPKb6'&
e!3!!!!!!!!!#!!P8D'8J4QpbBf9P)IN33)(4$N#"d4K!JG%S!!!!!`!'VfJ!"VP
then you have a BinHex file. The GSCII+ NDA by Derek Taubert decodes
BinHex files on an Apple IIGS. You can also use a variety of macintosh
programs to do the decoding. There is also a Unix implementation of BinHex
called mcvert.
On one more hand, if you have a text file which resembles:
CALL-151
E00:38 A5 FF D0 32 D8 20 8E FD AD 30 BF 8D 6A 0E 20 00 BF C7 6D 0E 0D 80 02
E18:D0 1D 20 00 BF C5 69 0E B0 15 AD 81 02 29 0F AA E8 8E 80 02 A9 2F 8D 81
and more lines like that, followed by a bunch of lines that look like:
A90885A420732090242039FB2058FCA200BD9220F00620EDFDE8D0F5200CFDA9
008DF2038DF3038DF4036CFCFFE6A4A5A4C96F90CFA9008DFCBFA9018DFDBFA0
A90885A420732090242039FB2058FCA200BD9220F00620EDFDE8D0F5200CFDA9
then you have an Executioner file.
======================================================================
[note: the umich archive is down now. Don't know how long tho.]
This FAQ will be available on-line at apple2.archive.umich.edu and via
AFS (in /afs/umich.edu/group/itd/archive/apple2). Permission granted to
copy portions into non-profit User Group newsletters.
This FAQ is also in transition. Any additions/corrections/suggestions
would be appreciated. Also, if this FAQ has helped you, e-mail me
and let me know!
FAQ Revised July 17,1992 by Dan DeMaggio (dm...@caen.engin.umich.edu)
--
-=- Dan DeMaggio -=- dm...@caen.engin.umich.edu -=-
"That is really incredible. That is truly incredible. That is so
incredibly incredible that I think I'd like to steal it." -Zaphod
Daniel Demaggio
==========================================
Excuse me while I wax a little philosophical, but the Apple II is one of
the computer that started the computer revolution because it is so flexible
and open--a pure hacker's machine, but also one that there is a lot of
software to allow novices to use it too. The following are the various models
of the Apple ][:
Apple ][
Apple ][+
Multitech MPF-II
Franklin Ace
Apple /// (w/emulation software)
][ In A Mac emulator
track emulator for IBM
Apple ][ Emulator for Unix
Apple ][e (Unenhanced)
E Multitech MPF-III (if enhanced)
E+ Laser 128
E Laser 128 EX/2
E+ Apple ][e Emulation card (and a Mac LC)
E Apple ][e (Enhanced)
E+ Apple //e (Platinum w/numeric keypad)
E Apple //c
E Apple //c+
E Apple IIGS (ROM 00/Woz edition.)
E Apple IIGS (ROM 01 with 256K built-in)
E+ Apple IIGS (ROM 03 with 1 MB built-in)
(E) = Emulates an Enhanced //e (+) = Still in Production
Apple ][+: Surprisingly, the ][+ can run some of today's software. For
instance, Davex and FredWriter. You can even run AppleWorks if you have more
than 128K and a program called PlusWorks. Recommended configuration: 16K
language card (in slot 0 with a ribbon cable running to the RAM), an
80-column video card (not the same as a //e 80-column card), shift key
modification (a wire running from shift key to game port).
Apple //e: The //e comes in two flavors: Enhanced and Unenhanced. The
Enhancement kit allows an upgrade path by replacing 4 chips. Most current
software requires an Enhanced //e, and sometimes 128K too. The current
operating system is ProDos. The Apple //e is still useful for three major
reasons: 1) It runs AppleWorks, a simple to use, yet sophisticated integrated
program. 2) There are many Apples in schools, so there is a ton of
educational software for it. 3) It is was and will always be a _Personal_
computer. You can learn as little or as much as you want, and nothing stops
you from learning about every nook and cranny in it. Ask any big name
programmer in MS/DOS or Mac where they learned to program. Most of them
taught themselves on a good ol' Apple //. Good programs for an Apple //e:
AppleWorks (from Claris) with TimeOut (Beagle Brothers), Copy ][+ (Central
Point), ProTerm (InSync), PrintShop (Broderbund). Recommended configuration:
80 extended column card, 512K to 1MB RAM, Enhanced, Hard Drive is nice.
//c and //c+: The //c and //c+ are 'luggable' versions of an Enhanced
//e, with many built-in 'cards'. Included are 2 serial ports, a mouse port, a
3.5" disk port and 128K of RAM. Even though they were supposed to be
unexpandable, you can still add extra memory (there's room under the
keyboard) and a hard drive (through the disk port--a bit slow by ordinary
standards, but usable). Some software that uses the mouse may get confused on
the //C+. The //C and //C+ cannot do AppleTalk or take any cards. Recommended
configuration: Not much you can add to it, except maybe extra RAM and a 3.5"
drive/Hard drive.
The Laser 128EX is a cross between the //c and an Enhanced //e. It is as
luggable as a //c and has built-in 'cards', but it also has a slot to expand.
If you want to add card, you may have to disable the internal UDC (for 3.5"
drives) or the internal 1MB memory expansion.
The Apple IIGS represents a giant leap in the Apple // line. It can still
run //e software, but has a better processor (16-bit), a new super-hires
graphics mode, a toolbox in ROM (just like the Mac) and a 32 oscillator
Ensoniq sound chip. It can not only run ProDos, but it can also run GS/OS, a
sophisticated operating system very much like the Macintosh's OS. The
original GS (I think they all have the Woz signature) must have a motherboard
upgrade to run the current software. The ROM 01 had 256K on the motherboard,
while the ROM 03 has 1 MB. Although there were a few ROM changes, the current
system software will work patch the toolbox ROMs to look identical.
Recommended configuration: 1.25 MB lets you boot up and launch programs. With
2 MB, you will have room for Desk Accessories. Go for 4 MB if you want a RAM
disk (useful if you don't have a hard drive) or do a lot of Graphics work.
Adding a hard drive is highly recommended.
The Apple ][e emulation card is a card that can only go into a Macintosh
LC, and lets one run Apple //e software. It is actually more like a //c
because it has no slots. Unfortunately, the emulation can be slower than a
real //e because the LC is slow at updating the screen. There is a place on
the back of the card to plug in a UniDisk 5.25" and a joystick.
Q: How do I get out of Basic (that little "]" prompt and flashing cursor?
A: Type the word "BYE" and press return. Now get out the Apple manual 'A Touch
of BASIC' and read it.
Q: Can the Apple II connect to SCSI devices?
A: Yes. See the section on SCSI in this FAQ.
Q: Can my Apple read IBM/MAC disks? What about High Density disks?
A quick chart for 3.5" compatibility:
Disk type | //e GS Mac W/DD Drive Mac W/HD drive
------------|------------------------------------------------------------
ProDos 800K | yes yes AFE AFE
ProDos 1600K| HD 3.5 HD 3.5 no AFE
HFS 800K | A2FX Sys 6 yes yes
HFS 1440K | not yet HD 3.5 + Sys 6 no yes
IBM 720K | somewhat somewhat AFE? AFE
IBM 1440K | somewhat somewhat no AFE
Key: yes = no problem no = impossible
not yet = possible, but no software available. Would need HD 3.5.
somewhat = software was written, but with limitations.
HD 3.5 = High Density Disk Drive _AND_ NEW 3.5" controller card
A2FX (and HFSLink) = PD/SW programs for the Apple II.
AFE = Apple File Exchange on the Macintosh. Very S-L-O-W.
[note: for those who don't know, HFS is the normal Macintosh format]
For 5.25" disks, the encoding method is completely different between IBM
and Apple. If you are really a glutton for punishment, you can get an Applied
Engineering PC Transporter to read IBM 3.5" or 5.25" disks.
Q: How do I get stuff from my Apple // to IBM (or Mac)?
A: there are two parts to this question. Physically, you can use AFE (see
above Q) or a null-modem cable. (a null-modem cable is really a printer
cable. You connect the 2 serial ports, and poof, they can send files back and
forth with any communications software) The other part to this question is
data conversion. Once you copy your file to the IBM, you may find there is no
software that can use it. Of course, converting an Apple program to IBM is
out of the question.
One helpful hint is that all computers can read text files. Most word
processors can save as text and import as text. But with text files, you will
loose all your formatting (font type, centering and so-forth). For
spreadsheets, saving as DIF will make conversion a breeze. Databases can be
saved as tab-delimited records. (Note that in AppleWorks, you have to go to
Print to save in these formats).
If you want to do better, there are several options available. For
example, AFE can convert between some kinds of documents (For example
AppleWorks Word Processor to MacWrite). The CrossWorks program can convert
between many Apple and IBM formats, and even comes with a universal null
modem cable. The program SuperWorks is an IBM clone of AppleWorks. It can
import AppleWorks files directly. SuperConvert can convert between all
Apple-specific graphics formats and many Mac, Amiga and IBM specific formats.
It can also save as GIF, which is a universal standard.
Q: What's the scoop on the new HD 3.5" drive?
A: In order to do High Density on the Apple //, you will need both the High
Density 3.5" drive and the new Apple 3.5" controller. If you don't have both,
you will only be able to do regular density. Of course, you will also need
High Density Disks.
Once you have collected the above items, you are in for a pleasant
surprise. ProDos 8 programs not only recognize it, but they can format HD
disks just fine. GS/OS has no problems either. You can even boot off of it,
giving extra room for Desk Accessories and such. Drawbacks: You cannot boot
copy-protected software or boot some FTA demos. Also, it takes up a slot on
the GS. If you are clever, you can get around this. You can put it in slot 5,
but then you will not be able to use a RAM disk (/RAM5). If you have a ROM 03
GS, you can put it in slot 4 and disable the mouse. Your GS/OS programs will
work, but your ProDos 8 programs won't be able to find the mouse. If you use
AppleTalk on a ROM 01, you may be able to put it in slot 1 (or 2), and use
the drive in the same slot as AppleTalk.
Q: AppleWorks won't print to my printer. What gives?
A: AppleWorks will refuse to print to a slot that has a disk device. In the
past, this worked well because if you try to print to a slot that has a disk
controller in it, you will re-boot. But now, this can cause problems when a
disk device is 'mapped' into your printer slot (due to a limitation in
ProDos, you can only have 2 drives per slot. Extra partitions on your hard
drive will be re-mapped to other slots). If you have a RamFast, you can
re-map the drives to different slots. Otherwise, there is a patch available
that will let you print anyway. (**I forget where this patch is located?**)
Q: Do third party 3.5" Macintosh disk drives work on the ][?
A: No. Apple's 3.5" drive has logic to sense which machine it is hooked up to
(Apple II or Macintosh) and it works accordingly.
Q: Can I hook up a LaserWriter, DeskJet, etc to my Apple //e?
A: Yes, all the above connections have regular serial or parallel connections.
The tricky part is getting them to do what you want. The DeskJet, for example
will print very nice looking text with regular old "PR#1". But if you want to
change the font or print graphics, you may have to purchase some software.
One excellent program for these types of printers is PublishIt 4. You won't
believe the output you can get from a //e. For AppleWorks fans, there is the
program called SuperPatch. Among it's patches is a cool DeskJet 500 printer
driver. You can print sideways, and change fonts with normal AppleWorks
commands.
Q: Can I hook up a LaserWriter, DeskJet, etc to my Apple IIGS?
A: On the GS, you can hook up a LaserWriter via AppleTalk or direct serial
connection. A GS program can typically print to a LaserWriter if it's
connected to the GS via AppleTalk. If you get a DeskJet, or PaintJet, etc,
you can hook them up via the serial port. But in order to use them
effectively, you will want Harmony from Vitesse (better) or Independence
(cheaper) from Seven Hills. They are new printer drivers for GS/OS programs
only. If you want to print from an 8-bit program, see the previous question.
Q: Can I hook up a scanner up to my //e? Can it do OCR (Optical Character
Recognition)?
A: Yes and Yes. Just pick up a Quickie scanner (by Vitesse) and InWords (by
WestCode Software). You can scan 4" columns (you must have 512K to 1 Meg) and
can even paste them together to make 8" scans. Then you can use InWords to
"read" text and put it into a text file or AppleWorks Word Processor file.
Q: What version is my computer?
A: Apple //e: The major division is between the Enhanced and unenhanced
models. Look at your computer while re-booting. If it says "APPLE ][", it is
not enhanced. The enhanced computers will say "Apple //e". You can upgrade it
yourself by getting the Apple //e Enhancement kit. (It contains 4 chips to
replace on your motherboard.) Many newer programs will not work unless you
have an Enhanced //e. If you have a //c or GS, or a Laser 128, you have
Enhanced //e compatibility. There are also some older //e's that are not
capable of double-hires. Check the serial number on the motherboard (in the
back, by the power-on led). If it ends in -A, you may need a motherboard swap
(unless you have the PAL version).
A: pple //GS: There are 3 major versions of the GS: Check the initial power-up
screen. It will say ROM 01, ROM 03. If it does not say either, you have the
Original (Woz Signature edition). You must upgrade it in order to run current
system software. The ROM 01 has 256K on the motherboard, while the ROM 03 has
1 MB on the motherboard. All the enhancements of the ROM 03 (except the 1MB,
of course) can be added to the ROM 01 simply by booting up with current
system software.
Apple //c: Go into Basic and type "PRINT PEEK (64447)" and press return.
If it says 255, you have a very old //c. See your dealer about getting an
upgrade. If it says 0, you can do 3.5" drives, but you don't have the memory
expansion connector. If it says 3 You have the memory expansion. If it says
4, you have the latest model of the //c. If it says 5, you have a //c+.
Q: I have a ][+/Franklin. Where can I get tech support?
A: Send a Self Addressed, Stamped Envelope to: TEBR, RFD #1, North Salem, NY
10560-9705 or call PH# (914)-669-5421
Q: My Applied Ingenuity drive died. Does anyone repair them?
A: Bill Heineman, Custom Software Inc, 7734 S. Broadway Rd, Whitter, CA 90606
PH# (213)-695-3966. He also does other types of drives.
Q: Can I get replacement chips for my Apple //c?
A: Alltech Electronics carries all the //c chips for $9 to $39 each (depending
on the chip). Pick up the latest A+ and look for their ad. You can them at
(619) 721-7733.
Q: Where can I find oscillator crystals?
A: Digi-Key Corp (Phone: 800-344-4539). They charge $3.75 per crystal and $5
for shipping an order. Here are the part #'s for a TransWarp GS: (TWGS speed
in parens) 32MHz (8MHz) SE1101, 36MHz (9MHz) SE1103, 40MHz (10MHz) SE1104.
Q: What programming languages are available for the Apple ][?
A: well..
Basic: Applesoft (built-in to your computer!), which can be extended
with several utilities in commercial and non-commercial form.
To speed it up: Beagle Brother's Applesoft Compiler.
TML Basic, Micol Basic, or Z-Basic, which are BASIC development
packages. Pecan Power System Basic.
GS-Basic, available through APDA.
Forth: Purple Forth+, Q Forth+, Mad Apple Forth+, GS Forth, GraForth
Full C: Orca C, APW C, and Manx Aztec C. The first 2 are GS only.
Small C: Hyper-C+ and a Small C that comes as an add-on
package with one of the assemblers.
Pascal: Complete (formerly TML) Pascal, Orca/Pascal, Apple UCSD Pascal
and Quick Pascal (via APDA) and Pecan Power System's Pascal.
Assembly: Orca/M, Orca/M GS, APW, Merlin 8/16 Plus, Lisa+, EDASM.
Other: Pecan Power Systems Fortran. Lisp, Logo, Promal. GS Scheme+
(+ = share/freeware [available via FTP])
Q: My GS control panel keeps resetting to the defaults and/or forgetting the
date.
A: It's probably your battery. If you have a ROM 03 GS, you just pop it out an
get another. On the ROM 01, you will need a Slide-On Battery Replacement Kit
from Night Owl Productions. See address in 'Resources' section.
Q: I want a Y-adapter for my GS keyboard.
A: Redmond Cable has an ADB Y-connector cable for separating your mouse from
the side of your keyboard (also can be used to work around a failing ADB port
on the keyboard). See the 'Resources' section of this FAQ.
Q: What programs are there for conversion of graphic images?
A: There are quite a few:
IIGIF is a freeware GIF converter for any Apple II (but there is a patch
needed for the Apple //c). It reads in GIF and saves as hires or
double-hires.
MACDOWN is also freeware and lets you do the same with MacPaint pics.
A ProDos 8 version of The Graphics Exchange (don't know much about it).
[The following software only work on an Apple IIGS]
The Graphics Exchange (with library disk 1 - and soon with library disk 2 and
The RGB Exchange) converts between many formats of graphics.
SuperConvert loads all GS formats, plus GIFS and other non-GS specific
formats and saves in all GS formats (including Finder Icon files). It has
more dithering options than most of the other programs, but you may have
to play with it to find the best one.
SHRConvert is the earlier, shareware, predecessor to SuperConvert. It does a
pretty good job on the types of graphics it supports.
Platinum Paint can import all GS formats (yes, even PrintShop) plus MacPaint.
It can only save in SHR and Apple Preferred. It can view (but not
make/edit) SHR animations.
ShowPic 6 is a shareware NDA that can display most GS formats. You can also
save the resulting graphic as a IIGS SHR painting.
Dream Grafix supports all 3200 color picture types and also 16 color and 256
color pictures. This is a very impressive paint program with its 3200
color support.
Note: 'All GS formats' includes Superhires (type $C1 and $C0), hires,
double-hires and PrintShop/PrintShop GS.
Q: I have an old CPM / PASCAL / DOS 3.3 disk. How do I get it into ProDos?
A: The //e system software, the GS/OS system 6 DOS3.3 HFS FST, and Copy ][+
can all convert Dos 3.3 files into ProDos. This is only helpful for text
files, graphics, and some Basic programs. For ProDos, CPM, Pascal, Dos 3.3,
try the program Chameleon. It's only drawback is that it does not recognize
hard disks. (just have a ProDos floppy disk handy.)
Q: How do you copy from a 5.25" disk to 3.5" disk?
A: ProDos has no problems with this, as long as you copy by files. Note that
ProDos can only have 51 files in the main directory. If you try to exceed
that, it will give you a cryptic 'Disk Full' error. If there really is space
left on the disk, you can copy all the files into a subdirectory to get
around the 51-file limit. In theory, you can put an unlimited number of files
in a Subdirectory, but in practice, you should limit them to 150 - 200 files
(to avoid problems with certain programs).
Q: Why does my Apple II lose characters when I'm using the modem?
A: Check the following: 1) Your software may need interrupts enabled. Examine
DIP Switch 2-6 on your Super Serial Card. 2) If you have an unenhanced //e,
you need to enhance your //e. 3) If you have a //c, it may be one of the ones
that had a serial port problem. Talk to your dealer about upgrading it for
2400 baud support.
Q: What happened to Beagle Brothers?
A: Beagle Brothers is alive and well, but concentrating on the Macintosh with
their BeagleWorks package. The Apple // distributing is being handled by
Quality Computers. That does not mean that it is the end. QC is supporting
current BB packages, and will be expanding the TimeOut line of AppleWorks
enhancements.
Q: Is the Apple // dead?
A: Old computers never die, they just get upgraded. Ok, ok, maybe not. But as
long as the computer is still useful to you, it is not dead. In fact, despite
the lack of advertising, there are some people at Apple supporting the II.
Consider that this year alone, we have a new GS/OS, an improved HyperCard, a
new ProDos (Don't expect V2.0, they said), a High Density 3.5" drive and
controller, and an announcement for an EitherTalk card. Hmmm...
Q: Yes, but isn't the Apple // wimpy? Isn't it old technology? Isn't 1 MHz
slow in today's computer world?
A: You don't always need a 50 MHz computer to do word processing, or a 3-D
relational spreadsheet to do checkbook balancing. Of course, I wouldn't use
my Apple to run Mathmatica. Use the right tool for the job. The other part of
it is that the Apple // is simple enough that one can take total control of
it. Write directly to to screen. Re-write the operating system. Do cool
hardware hacks with it. Write a simple basic 'guess-the-number' game.
Whatever. The point is that many programmers write software for the Apple //
because it is FUN as well as challenging.
As for the 'old' bit: the IBM PC was released well over a decade ago too.
The GS is to an Apple II+ as the IBM 486 is to the IBM XT. (Ok, so maybe
that's stretching it a bit). As for speed, you can't directly compare those
because the underlying processors are different. The Apple gets more done in
1 clock cycle than the IBM processor. Really, the only speed that matters is
REAL time. Windows and fancy graphics can really load a computer down. Even
though hardware is getting faster and better, software is getting larger and
slower. You can't win. Compare the time to start up the following word
processors: FrameMaker on a Sun SparcStation (30 seconds), M.S. Word on a Mac
(2 seconds) classic AppleWorks on my GS (instantly --I have a RamFast ;).
Topic: System 6.0 mini-FAQ
==========================================
Subtopic: Common Problems
------------------------------------------
Some programs are incompatible with CloseView. Symptoms are the mouse
wipes out everything it moves over. Remove CloseView or inactivate it in the
system folder. May still cause troubles if active, but set to 'off'. See GS
Technote #91.
EasyAccess is also incompatible with some applications, (especially on
ROM 01). Symptoms are a locked keyboard, and not being able to reboot. Remove
it or make it inactive.
Missing features of system 6? Perhaps you just used easy install, which
doesn't install all the bells and whistles. Try clicking on customize and add
the nifty things like Calculator, Find File, HFS FST, etc. You can also read
the Shortcuts file on SystemTools2 for some great keyboard shortcuts.
Finder icons that match by name and have a leading wildcard require
uppercase letters. For example, a name like "*.txt" never matches, but
"*.TXT" works fine (it matches regardless of a file's actual capitalization).
(This was accidental; the 5.0.4 Finder did not care about capitalization in
icon files.)
Two misconceptions about System 6: The A2.RAMCARD is not for the GS's
/RAM5. It only works with "slinky" (i.e. standard slot) cards. Also, the DOS
3.3 FST has nothing to do with MS-DOS.
Subtopic: Tips & Hints
------------------------------------------
The AppleShare logon programs have always looked for a folder named
"Mail" inside your user folder whenever you log onto a user volume. If
there's any items in there, they present a dialog that says "You have mail."
Under SSW 6.0, that also sends a SysBeep2 request so you can get the sound of
your choice.
If you don't want to see your icons on boot, set bit 1 (i.e. the 2nd LSB)
of BRAM Location $5F. Be sure not to mess with the other bits. Use the
toolbox calls!
The FinderExtras folder goes in the same folder as the Finder (generally
*:System).
If you don't like yellow folders in the Finder you can change the byte at
offset +65 in the Finder resource with type $C001 and ID 1. Change the $E0 to
whatever you want (the first digit is the default folder foreground color,
and the low nibble is for the outline color). Only folders that do *not*
already have a color recorded in a Finder.Data file get the default color.
Subtopic: If you have a RamFast
------------------------------------------
The RamFast and ProDos 2.0.1 both try to do re-mapping of drives to
unused slots. This can cause problems, mostly when launching and returning
from ProDos 8 applications (crashes or wants you to insert disk). Solution:
Configure the RamFast not to re-map. If you have a RamFAST with a ROM
revision less than 2.01a, you need to get a newer ROM from CVT. Otherwise,
V2.01c allows setting Slot Priority Allocations to 0 which will let ProDos
deal with them. V3.0 allows you to choose between RamFast mapping (works now)
and ProDos 8 mapping. If you can't wait, you can Patch ProDos 2.0 not to
re-map slots. Look for "10 BF C9 A5 D0 07" and change the $A5 to $00 (should
be byte $1A3 in the 5th block of the file). Hack at your own risk.
Subtopic: If you have a Vulcan or AE High Density disk
------------------------------------------
Due to problems with the Vulcan, when booting, it asks for your System
Disk. Just put the Vulcan driver on your boot disk, boot it, and then launch
the installer. Alternately, put the driver on the installer disk and boot it.
(but you have to delete some of the installer scripts first) For the AE High
Density Drive, be sure to remove Apple's 3.5" driver when putting on AE's.
Subtopic: If you have ProSel
------------------------------------------
Rename start to something else before running the installer, or else the
Finder won't be installed. Believe me, you don't want to miss out on Finder
6.0!
Subtopic: If you have an AMR 3.5"
------------------------------------------
If the computer hangs (mostly at the Standard File dialogue box) with no
disk in the drive, try putting one in. What's happening is that GS is reading
the status from the drive, and the drive won't return anything unless there
is a disk in the drive. Just stick a disk in and all will be fine. If it
really annoys you, either deactive the 3.5" driver (get IR so you can
double-click to re-activate it) or simply keep a disk in the drive at all
times. This is not a problem under ProDos 8.
Subtopic: GSCII+ & HFS Note
------------------------------------------
There is a problem with the HFS FST, but only GSCII seems to be affected.
When de-binscii-ing files, put the output onto a ProDos volume, not an HFS
one.
[ Mega-thanks to Dave Lyons & friends for these. ]
Topic: What to do with an Apple ][?
==========================================
Q: What can you hook up to an Apple ][?
A: Hard Drives, Scanners, Video Digitizers, Laser Printers, Video Overlay
Cards, Tape backups, Inkjet Printers, 24 pin Dot Matrix Printers, EPROM
Burners, AppleTalk Networks, High Density 3.5" drives, serial cards, parallel
cards, audio Digitizers, CP/M boards (Z-80 processor), an IBM-on-a-card, 9600
baud modems, D/A and A/D cards, joysticks, mice, graphics tablets, touch
screens, extended keyboards, track balls, several Megabytes of RAM, Real-time
clocks, and of course, Users!
This list is by no means exhaustive: This is just what I personally have
done. All of it is available NOW, and can be done on any Apple //e. In the
very near future, you will be able to hook up:
EitherTalk Networks, DSP boards, cheap IBM disk drives, and cheap FAX
modems.
Q: What can you do with an Apple ][?
A: As if the above weren't impressive, how about: Optical Character
recognition, Desktop publishing, Integrated Spread sheet, Database and Word
Processing, Interactive fiction adventure games, Arcade quality games,
Educational games, Programming, Telecommunications, Inventory, Accounting,
Money Management, and that's not even scratching the surface.
Q: What can the //e can "borrow" from other computers? (w/the right software)
A: GS bitmapped fonts, Mac Disks, MacPaint pictures, GIF pictures, just about
any Mac SCSI device (Hard Drives, Tape backup), Mac sounds?, many archive
formats (like uudecode), any serial device (EPROM burners, FAX modems,
mega-fast modems w/ MNP5), etc.
Q: What can the GS can "borrow" from other computers? (w/the right software)
A: Mac bitmapped fonts, Mac Icons, Mac and Windows TrueType fonts, Mac Disks,
Amiga Mod songs, MacPaint pictures, MacWrite documents, GIF pictures,
WordPerfect documents, just about any Mac SCSI or ADB device (including Hard
Drives, Pen Mice, etc), Mac sounds, Many archive formats (.uu, .zip, .arc,
.sit, .hqx, etc), any serial device (EPROM burners, FAX modems, mega- fast
modems w/hardware MNP-5), etc.
If you are interested in doing any of the above, feel free to e-mail me
(dm...@caen.engin.umich.edu). Someday, maybe I'll fill in the specific
software or hardware you need to do any of the above. If you have any
additions, let me know too!
Topic: Resources for the Apple II:
==========================================
Listed below are some places to get information about the Apple II.
Be sure and check your local user group (and the user group library).
There's also the FTP sites...
To find the closest Apple II (or Macintosh) User Group near you, contact:
The Apple User Group Connection Phone:
Apple Computer, Inc. (800) 538-9696, extension 500
20525 Mariani Avenue, MS:36-AA
Cupertino, CA 95014
InCider/A+ is a monthly Apple II/Macintosh magazine. Although their Apple
II coverage is shaky at best, you can find a lot of Apple II ads in there.
InCider/A+
P.O. Box 56818
Boulder, CO 80322-8618
A2-Central is a tiny monthly publication, but it is packed with
information. It has technical discussions and philosophical discussions. It
is also available on disk, with many PD/SW programs each month. They also
publish many monthly disks, including ones for HyperStudio users, TimeOut
users, HyperCard users, and probably others. All are on 3.5" disk only.
A2-Central (913) 469-6502
P.O. Box 11250 (913) 469-6507 (FAX)
Overland Park, KS 66207
GEnie: A2-CENTRAL, UNCLE-DOS, or DENNIS.DOMS
APDA (Apple Programmers and Developers) is the place to get the latest
and greatest from Apple and third party vendors. They have many programming
tools and debugging aids not available anywhere else. You can get their
catalog for free just by calling. They sell the Tool 35 docs w/SynthLab, the
Video Overlay Card Development Kit, GSBug and other debugging tools, d e v e
l o p (The Apple Technical Journal with developers help on a CD-ROM), and
many other wonderful products.
APDA (800) 282-2732 (U.S.)
Apple Computer, Inc. (800) 637-0029 (Canada)
20525 Mariani Avenue, Mail Stop 33G (408) 562-3910 (International)
Cupertino, California 95014-6299 (408) 562-3971 (FAX)
171-576 (Telex)
AppleLink: APDA GEnie: A.DEVELOPER3 Compuserve: 76666,2405 MCI: POSTROM
MacNet: APDA
You can become an associate in the Apple Developer Program for $350 (for
Mac and Apple II) or a mere $150 (for Apple II only) by calling
1-408-974-4897. That gets you Develop magazine, Apple Technical notes, the
Apple Developer CD, discounts on Apple products, and more! If you want to
license Apple Software for distribution with your product you can get
information by calling 1-408-974-4667. (Note: You need a license to
distribute Apple System Software, including ProDOS, and the Installer.)
Apple has a toll-free customer assistance line for handling sales
questions and user concerns. This toll-free line is not designed to be a
technical support hotline, but instead is an extension to the comprehensive
Apple customer relations effort. The Customer Assistance Center is open
Monday through Friday from 6 a.m. to 5 p.m. Pacific time by dialing
1-800-776-2333.
GS+ is published bi-monthly, as a magazine and as an accompanying disk.
They are a great source for shareware and PD programs, some which are not
available anywhere else. They also have reviews of new software. Of course,
it's GS specific.
GS+ Subscription Services (800) 662-3634 (orders only)
c/o EGO Systems (615) 870-4960
P.O. Box 15366 (913) 469-6507 (FAX)
Chattanooga, Tennessee 37415-0366
Email: JWAN...@UTCVM.BITNET
Hyperstudio Network is a quarterly newsletter about HyperStudio. They put
out an annual 'Best of HyperStudio' disk of stacks, and have discounts on
HyperStudio accessories. They even do some teacher-oriented stuff.
HyperStudio Network Phone:
Box 103 (609) 446-3196
Blawenburg, NJ 08504
II Sysops is a bi-monthly newsletter for Bulletin Board System Operators.
It explores every aspect of running a BBS, from the technical issues, to
legal issues, to sysop policy. They even have board-by-board news on the
major BBS's.
II Sysops
P.O. Box 720
Eldersburg, MD 21784
The Road Apple - An Apple // "End Users" Underground Newsletter.
Published bi-monthly.
1121 NE 177th, Suite B Phone:
Portland, OR 97230 (503) 254-3874.
Computist is a publication devoted to gathering and distributing
information on removing copy protection from Apple II software.
P.O. Box 110846
Tacoma, WA 98411
Softdisk and Softdisk GS - monthly disk magazines containing a variety of
software (PD/SW, clip art, reviews, etc). Softdisk is available on 5.25" or
3.5" disks. Softdisk GS is available only on 3.5" disks.
Softdisk Publishing Phone:
P.O. Box 30008 (800) 831-2694
Shreveport, LA 71130-0008 (318) 221-8718
USUS is an international non-profit organization dedicated to promoting
and influencing software standards to aid in the development of portable
software. They have a large software library including a lot of source code
(for almost every language or computer).
Keith Frederick (Secretary), USUS Inc.,
P.O. Box 1148
La Jolla, CA 92038
Night Owl makes a slide-on battery for ROM 01 GS's.
Nite Owl Productions Phone:
Slide-On Battery Dept. (913) 362-9898
5734 Lamar Street
Mission, KS 66202
Redmond cable makes and sells all sorts of custom cables.
Redmond Cable Corporation Phone:
17371-A1 NE 67th Ct (206) 882-2009.
Redmond, WA 98052,
Quality Computers not only sells Apple II products, but maintains a list
of user groups and publishes an informative newsletter geared towards
educators (called Enhance). To get a QC catalog and a free subscription to
Enhance, just call or write.
Quality Computers (800) 777-ENHAnce
20200 E. 9 Mile Road (313) 774-7200 (International)
Box 665 (313) 774-2698 (FAX)
St. Clair Shores, MI 48080 (313) 774-7740 (Technical Support)
NAUG, the National AppleWorks Users Group is a group devoted to that
wonder program, AppleWorks. You can get info by calling 313-454-1115
(Michigan). Anybody know their address?
(More resources to be added as I think of them. Email suggestions to
dm...@caen.engin.umich.edu. as always, let me know of any mistakes, updates,
corrections, additions, etc.)
Topic: General guidelines on How To Troubleshoot
==========================================
First, resist the temptation to install all your new toys at once. Take it
one step at a time and test everything after adding each item.
Leave the computer plugged in, but turned off when installing cards. Touch
the power supply before and often during your work. Better yet, use a
wrist strap tied to ground through a 1 Megaohm resistor.
When asking others for help, it is essential to know the EXACT error message
you are getting. Also, be as specific as possible. Saying "It did not
work" or "I could not get any farther" is not helpful. Exactly which
screen did it stop at? Does it respond to any input at all? What had you
done up to that point? Is it reproducible any other way?
Make sure you have the required components for the program. Does it require
an Enhanced //e? More RAM? A separate boot disk?
Never use your original disks. Make a backups and store the write-protected
originals in a safe place.
Be sure to keep your disks away from stray magnetic fields emanating from
phones, monitors and speakers.
If you have an accelerator, try to disable it or take it out entirely. It may
not be compatible with the new item.
Is the problem re-producible? If so, what are the MINIMUM actions to
reproduce it?
Check all your cable connections. Do not disconnect or connect any cables
with the computer on.
Try pulling out other cards and disconnect your joystick. If you have a lot
of cards, you might consider a Heavy-Duty Power Supply from A.E. It
supplies 6 Amps instead of a measly 2.5 Amps. Test the power supply with
a voltmeter while the computer is on.
Call the manufacturer to see if there is an upgrade or a fix.
Subtopic: Trouble shooting and good maintenance
------------------------------------------
Try the system test: hold down the Control key, the Open Apple key, and the
Option (or Solid Apple) key. Then press and release Reset. Lastly, let up
on the other keys. Sit back and 'Watchen Der Blinken Lighten.'
Most RAM cards come with a memory tester. Try running it in continuous mode
for several hours, even if your RAM seems to be working.
Write down your configuration when you have it working (for future
reference).
Verify your disk(s) with Copy ][+ or the Finder to see if you have any bad
blocks.
Subtopic: GS Trouble shooting
------------------------------------------
Check your control panel settings: What is the startup slot set to? Is the
slot set to "Your Card"? Check your RAM disk setting. Is it taking up all
your memory? Try setting the speed to normal if it's a non-GS program.
Take out or disable your INITS, CDAs, NDAs, and CDEVS. (With System 6, just
hold down Shift while booting).
If you have a hard disk, try booting from a System Disk and/or re-install the
latest system software. Many random problems can be traced to corrupted
or improperly installed system software.
Never connect/disconnect an ADB device when the computer is on.
AppleWorks GS comes with a memory tester (try it).
The TransWarp GS has a continuous test on the CDA (try it too).
Topic: SCSI
==========================================
SCSI is a protocol (kind of like serial or parallel) that lets you hook
up several devices (up to 8) on a SCSI bus (a bus is just a series of wires).
You must give each device it's own unique ID number from 0-7. The SCSI card
is usually set to 7. There are two types of SCSI cables: the 50 pin
Centronics-type (like on parallel printers) or the 25-pin "D" connector. The
50-pin is the SCSI standard, the 25-pin is the Apple standard. On a SCSI
chain, there must be a Terminator at each end. A Terminator is just a bunch
of resistors. Some drives have internal terminators (3 small yellow-orange
packs), and some drives come with an external terminator (a "plug" to put on
the back of the drive). Also, somebody on the bus must supply terminator
power (one of the SCSI lines). If There are any problems (multiple things
with the same ID, too much termination or not enough, or no terminator
power), you may be able to use the drive, but your data will get corrupted.
Most of the time, the computer will refuse to recognize the drive.
At first, there was the Apple Rev 'C' SCSI card (named after the final
ROM version--all previous versions MUST be upgraded to work with current
software). There were several clones from the likes of CMS and Chinook. Then
Apple came out with it's High Speed DMA SCSI card. This has the ability to do
Direct Memory Access to the RAM in your computer, which speeds things up.
This created a lot of problems with cards that were not DMA compatible. CV
Technologies also has a DMA SCSI card called the RamFast. This card has 256K
or 1MB of on-board RAM to make it even faster than Apple's card. It can also
supply terminator power if you drive does not supply it. Both of the new
cards support things like SCSI tape backup units, removable SCSI drives, SCSI
CD-ROM, and of course SCSI hard drives. Both the new cards also require an
Enhanced //e.
Subtopic: Tips on setting up a SCSI system:
------------------------------------------
You can have multiple drives on one SCSI card, just make sure you remove the
termination on all the drives but the last one. This is because the newer
SCSI cards are terminated (and they count as a SCSI device).
Always check that the cords are plugged in properly. Never connect/disconnect
anything when the computer is on.
The computer will boot the hard drive with the highest SCSI ID, which should
be ID 6.
Try letting the drive 'warm up' for 15 seconds before turning the computer
on. The SCSI cards look for drives only at startup, and may ignore any
drives that are not ready.
Try turning off DMA. If this helps, you may have a non-DMA compatible card,
such as the early versions of the TransWarp, early versions of the GS
RAM, or any 8-bit accelerator.
Check that each device has a unique ID. Most drives have a thumbwheel on the
back to set the ID. Your SCSI card (yes, it counts too) is probably ID 7.
Number your drives from 6 downwards for best compatibility. The IDs have
nothing to do with what slot the card is in.
Is there a terminator at each end of the SCSI bus? (the DMA cards are
terminated, and some drives are internally terminated.)
Try the software that came with the card. It may give helpful diagnostic
messages (I.E. the Apple DMA SCSI utilities-- Does it say "No Apple SCSI
card found" or "No SCSI devices found"?)
Do you get the message "Unable to Load ProDos"? If so, it's booting your
drive but you have no system software on it. Try hitting Control-Reset,
then PR#5 (or PR#6) to boot a floppy. Then install the system software
(i.e. ProDos or GS/OS).
In extreme cases, try reformatting the drive, repartitioning, and
re-installing the System software.
If the drive access light blinks in a regular pattern before the computer is
turned on, it is telling you that it has a hardware malfunction. It needs
to be serviced.
Did you try re-installing the System software? Many times, the data on a
drive will get corrupted if you run the drive with improper terminators
or conflicting SCSI ID's. Sometimes you will not notice the corrupted
data until after you fix the problem. If re-installing the System
software helps, it was probably a software problem, not a hardware
problem.
The Apple HS DMA SCSI card requires an Enhanced //e. It will not work on the
older //e without an Enhancement Kit.
To really put a drive through it's paces, copy a LOT of stuff from one
partition to another (copy the entire partition if you can). If there is
a problem with DMA or SCSI ID's, it will probably show up as a strange
GS/OS error. (GS only)
Make sure you do not have the Apple SCSI drivers installed if you have a
RamFast. It may cause random problems (they leave an interrupt handler
dangling if they can't find their card.) (GS only)
Make sure you are booting the right slot. If the card is in slot 7, you can
set the startup slot to Scan or 7. (GS only)
If you boot up and only 1 partition shows up, you need to install the SCSI
drivers. (GS only)
If you boot up and it says "Drive XXX is already on the desktop" over and
over: Probably a SCSI ID problem. (GS only)
Jawaid Bazyar
>In article <1992Jul21.2...@sunb10.cs.uiuc.edu> ejoh...@sparc3.cs.uiuc.edu (Eric E Johnson) writes:
>>In <h5dmpaj...@netcom.com> pay...@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>>
>>>You deleted the text that I was responding to. The publisher did not pay
>>>the author for the copies of bilestoad that it sold. THIS is why he has
>>>not written any more games for the A//. This is not a piracy issue.
>>
>>But it is. If the game would have not been pirated, much more money
>>would have been made for DataMost [I think that they are the ones who
>>published Bilestoad] and they might have stayed in business.
>>Regardless, someone lost money by a lot of piracy.
>I do not believe that DataMost was in financial trouble when the Bilestoad
>came out. Your assumption that piracy was a major cause is probably
>wrong, but untestable, and therefore, not a meaningfull argument. The
>lost profits argument -assumes- that everyone who pirates a program could
>afford to buy is (no lost profits otherwise). I suspect that most of the
>time, this is not the case.
Oh Rich, you are so wrong.
Pirates can afford huge hard drives (200MB and up).
Pirates can afford $700 USRobotics HST Modems.
Pirates can afford long distance phone bills.
Pirates can damned well affort to buy a game now and then.
You can justify if you wish, but piracy is a _crime_ punishable by
a $10,000 fine and up to *TEN* years in prison. Think about that
before you leap off and say that piracy doesn't hurt anyone.
> And I suspect that the claimed lost profits
>exceed the expendable cash of the American public by an order of magnitude.
>Note, I am not defending piracy, but I am attacking the lost profits
>argument.
The lost profits argument is valid. It's like saying, well, these
people now have this software. If they have it on their computer, and
use it, that's lost profits to the company whether the jackass pirate
had the money to pay for it or not.
>None of which has any bearing on the fact that the PUBLISHER screwed the
>programs authur, they did not pay for the copies that they sold. Or do you
>call this piracy also?
This is downright low, and I'm not defending DataMost. I'm attacking
your laxidaisical attitude towards one of the largest criminal operations
happening today.
>The problems start when "an incredible number" -becomes- a number, and
>the number is used as a fact, and a basis for huge lost profits.
But it _IS_, Rich. If all those people really loved that game, and
weren't scum-sucking pirate filth, they'd have paid for it. And guess
what? There'd have been a Bilestoad II, and other games by that
author. But, because 1) the publisher screwed over the author, and 2)
because noone paid for the game, the author left the II market.
I tell you what, Rich. You try being a software publisher sometime.
Piracy will become _very_ important you you when every illegal copy
means someone reaching into your pocket and stealing $20. Piracy is
not a game, piracy is not a 'ignore it and it will go away' problem,
piracy is a *crime* against those who are trying to keep the Apple IIgs
alive.
--
Jawaid Bazyar | Ask me about the GNO Multitasking Environment
Procyon, Inc. | for the Apple IIgs!
baz...@cs.uiuc.edu | P.O Box 620334
--Apple II Forever!-- | Littleton, CO 80162-0334 (303) 933-4649
Howard Huang
>>And why is your 20,000 copy -guess- any better than the hundred
>>billion dollar losses claimed by the software industry?
>>... I do not trust their numbers.
>>Now if you actually went out and counted them...
pay...@netcom.com (Rich Payne) also writes:
The
lost profits argument -assumes- that everyone who pirates a program could
afford to buy is (no lost profits otherwise). I suspect that most of the
time, this is not the case.
And I suspect that the claimed lost profits
exceed the expendable cash of the American public by an order of magnitude.
Before saying Eric Johnson's "guesses" are unfounded, have you counted
the numbers to support your "suspicions"?
--
____________________________________________________________________________
| |
| Howard C. Huang Internet: hhu...@husc.harvard.edu |
| 173 Morrison Avenue #1 Bitnet: hhu...@husc.BITNET |
| Somerville, MA 02144 UUCP: ...!harvard!husc!hhuang |
|____________________________________________________________________________|
Glenn Koproske
m-jk...@GRANNY.CS.NYU.EDU (James Kyriannis) writes:
>There's a program available (I >think< it's freeware), called APL2EM --
>an Apple II Emulator for the PC. It offers excellent Apple II
>emulation, and includes a utility for transfering Apple disks to PCs.
>What's great is that all the classics, including Bilestoad, Bolo, Taipan,
>etc., can now be played on the PC!
I doubt that software written for the 6502 and 65816 chips will run on the
80x86 series CPU chips.
-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-
ProLine: flash@pro-applejacks | AppleJacks
Internet: fl...@pro-applejacks.cts.com | Computer Club
UUCP: crash!pro-applejacks!flash | of St. Louis
GEnie: G.KOPROSKE | (314) 781-0143
-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-
Rich Payne
>pay...@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>>I do not believe that DataMost was in financial trouble when the Bilestoad
>>came out. Your assumption that piracy was a major cause is probably
>>wrong, but untestable, and therefore, not a meaningfull argument.
>
>Datamost was in financial trouble by 1984. My contract with them was
>signed on December 28th, 1982. At that point the claimed to be
>getting out of the software business, because they couldn't make a go
>of it (in spite of programs like Aztec and The Bilestoad).
Were they in trouble when you signed the contract? I have seen The
Bilestoad, but never played it. I loved Aztek though. Did their problems
stem from mismanagement or lack of sales?
>The Bilestoad was voted one of the most popular games in 1983, in
>spite of the fact that both previous games I wrote sold about four
>times as many copies. This was IN SPITE OF the fact that by 1982 a
>significantly larger customer base existed, since many more apples
>were out in 1983-1984 than in 1980, when the first game was published.
>This, coupled with the fact that MANY people have told me that there
>were large numbers of pirated copies indicates that piracy WAS A
>SIGNIFICANT FACTOR in reducing my income. Since I dropped out of the
>market because I couldn't earn enough in it, we may therefore infer
>that piracy was a contributing factor to me dropping out of the
>market.
OK, point taken. Piracy was a factor.
>>The
>>lost profits argument -assumes- that everyone who pirates a program could
>>afford to buy is (no lost profits otherwise). I suspect that most of the
>>time, this is not the case. And I suspect that the claimed lost profits
>>exceed the expendable cash of the American public by an order of magnitude.
>>Note, I am not defending piracy, but I am attacking the lost profits
>>argument.
>
>No, it doesn't assume that everyone who pirates a program would have
>bought it.
The numbers I have seen figure lost profits by (pirated copies) *
(price of software).
> It assumes that SOME SIGNIFICANT FRACTION of the people
>who pirated the program would have bought it if they COULDN'T GET IT
>FOR FREE. Given the sales on the first two games I wrote, I certainly
>believe this to be the case. If The Bilestoad had sold as many copies
>as SpaceWarrior or Planetoids (and the very fact that you've probably
>never heard of either of those would seem to indicate that it SHOULD
>HAVE), then I could have at least paid off my mastercard and recouped
>my investment of time in developing the game.
>
>>None of which has any bearing on the fact that the PUBLISHER screwed the
>>programs authur, they did not pay for the copies that they sold. Or do you
>>call this piracy also?
>
>Cute rhetorical point, but I'm afraid it fails on the facts. Softdisk
>did not begin publication until 1986 or thereabouts, long after the
>rights reverted back to me and also after ``normal'' sales of the game
>had ceased. Datamost did default on $4000 in royalties, but even if
>they had paid those, it STILL wouldn't have been as much money as the
>previous games, nor enough to recoup the six months I spent developing
>the game in the first place.
Maybe I misunderstood. Did you get paid for most copies sold, just not
$4K at the end, or did you not get paid at all for this game?
And it was not a rhetorical point, it was the pint which I brough
up which started this sub-thread. I know what I meant.
>>You know, we are still talking about different things. Not just here,
>>but all through both posts. Probably the best thing to do is just to
>>drop the issue. Or post what you want, but not as a response to my post.
>
>Well, now that you know the facts, I can't imagine that you'd want to
>belabour your point any longer.
Thanx for the update, although I am still unclear on some points.
Rich
Rich Payne
>pay...@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>
> >>And why is your 20,000 copy -guess- any better than the hundred
> >>billion dollar losses claimed by the software industry?
> >>... I do not trust their numbers.
> >>Now if you actually went out and counted them...
>
>pay...@netcom.com (Rich Payne) also writes:
>
> The
> lost profits argument -assumes- that everyone who pirates a program could
> afford to buy is (no lost profits otherwise). I suspect that most of the
> time, this is not the case.
>
> And I suspect that the claimed lost profits
> exceed the expendable cash of the American public by an order of magnitude.
>
>Before saying Eric Johnson's "guesses" are unfounded, have you counted
>the numbers to support your "suspicions"?
what is the value of making huge estimates that cannot be proved or
disproved?
And I do not have to have good numbers to question others numbers. How many
angles can dance on the head of as pin? I don't know, but if you were to
say 1,000,000, then I would question that. Where did this come from, how
do you know?
> ____________________________________________________________________________
>| |
>| Howard C. Huang Internet: hhu...@husc.harvard.edu |
>| 173 Morrison Avenue #1 Bitnet: hhu...@husc.BITNET |
>| Somerville, MA 02144 UUCP: ...!harvard!husc!hhuang |
>|____________________________________________________________________________|
Rich
Rich Payne
Wow, you know each and every pirate personally and can verify this?
Do they also drive Mercedies? You need to learn to read.
I am saying nothing at all about piracy, period. You are so wrong.
What I said that there were some problems with the "lost profits"
argument. This is all that I said. The rest you made up so that you
could attack the issue. You would seem to have a personal problem here.
>> And I suspect that the claimed lost profits
>>exceed the expendable cash of the American public by an order of magnitude.
>>Note, I am not defending piracy, but I am attacking the lost profits
>>argument.
>
> The lost profits argument is valid. It's like saying, well, these
>people now have this software. If they have it on their computer, and
>use it, that's lost profits to the company whether the jackass pirate
>had the money to pay for it or not.
I need to check some numbers, but I bet that the claimed lost profits
exceed the expendable income of America. If this is the case, the argument
cannot be valid.
>>None of which has any bearing on the fact that the PUBLISHER screwed the
>>programs authur, they did not pay for the copies that they sold. Or do you
>>call this piracy also?
>
> This is downright low, and I'm not defending DataMost. I'm attacking
>your laxidaisical attitude towards one of the largest criminal operations
>happening today.
You need to learn to read dude, and stop making things up.
>>The problems start when "an incredible number" -becomes- a number, and
>>the number is used as a fact, and a basis for huge lost profits.
>
> But it _IS_, Rich. If all those people really loved that game, and
>weren't scum-sucking pirate filth, they'd have paid for it. And guess
>what? There'd have been a Bilestoad II, and other games by that
>author. But, because 1) the publisher screwed over the author, and 2)
>because noone paid for the game, the author left the II market.
Supposition and loaded language presented as fact. You present a weak
argument. And it is not true that "noone paid for the game". Unless you
are calling the author a liar as well, which at this point would not
surprise me.
> I tell you what, Rich. You try being a software publisher sometime.
>Piracy will become _very_ important you you when every illegal copy
>means someone reaching into your pocket and stealing $20. Piracy is
>not a game, piracy is not a 'ignore it and it will go away' problem,
>piracy is a *crime* against those who are trying to keep the Apple IIgs
>alive.
And it is also your issue, not mine. If you want to talk about the lost
profits argument, I will be glad to. As for the rest, you go non-linear,
and seem to think that I said and implied tons of stuff that I absolutely
did not say or imply. You even went as far as to edit out the line where
I said that I am not defending piracy, just attacking the lost-profits
argument. And I did not mean in general, but as it is being used by the
software industry, specifically, and only.
Is this really Jawaid? This is the first time I have seen you rant. And
it is really sad that you went so far beyond what I had said to do so.
Take it easy...
>--
> Jawaid Bazyar | Ask me about the GNO Multitasking Environment
> Procyon, Inc. | for the Apple IIgs!
> baz...@cs.uiuc.edu | P.O Box 620334
> --Apple II Forever!-- | Littleton, CO 80162-0334 (303) 933-4649
Rich
T. Mike Howeth
a PC-type machine. If I can locate it, I'll post more info.
James P. H. Fuller
> The lost profits argument is valid. It's like saying, well, these
> people now have this software. If they have it on their computer, and
> use it, that's lost profits to the company whether the jackass pirate
> had the money to pay for it or not.
>
> ....
>
> I tell you what, Rich. You try being a software publisher sometime.
> Piracy will become _very_ important you you when every illegal copy
> means someone reaching into your pocket and stealing $20.
The lost profits argument is vapor, because you don't have any objec-
tive handle on what your stolen program is really worth (as opposed to the
price you arbitrarily stick on it.) There's nothing to keep you from
setting the price of your shareware program at one billion dollars U.S. per
copy, and then claiming one billion bucks of lost profit each time it gets
pirated. You can work yourself into a lather over this ("I could have been
as rich as Bill Gates! I could have been as rich as Scrooge McDuck! But the
damn pirates stole my fortune!") but this rests on two false assumptions:
1) You assume your program is in fact worth whatever you say it's worth,
so if you decide you're losing twenty bucks per piracy then you really
are, or if you decide you're losing a billion bucks per piracy then
that's your true economic loss also.
2) You assume that each piracy equates to a lost sale, at your arbitrary
price, and that in every case the program would have been purchased
if it hadn't been cloned.
The truth (to take the assumptions in reverse order) is that you have
*no idea* whether 1000 piracies cause 1000 lost sales, or 10 lost sales,
or no lost sales. You'd *like to think* that every piracy equals a lost
sale but we don't get to base rational arguments on wishful thinking (if
we don't want to attract smirks and giggles, anyway.)
The other truth is that the actual economic value of a pirated pro-
gram has virtually no relation to the program's arbitrary sticker price.
Do you want to know the *real* value of your shareware program? Just take
the amount of money the program has *actually earned for you* and divide
that by the number of copies floating around. *That* is the value of
each copy, and your true economic loss each time it gets cloned. In
the case of most shareware we're talking a few hundredths of a cent per
copy here: the *true* lost profit, as opposed to the author/publisher's
*imagined* lost profit.
-- jf
Dan Harkless
>In <+wdmzp_...@netcom.com> pay...@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>
>>Wait a minute, he was robbed by the publisher. He did not profit from
>>the copy's that were -sold-. This is not a piracy issue.
>
>When I talked with Marc via email, he said that there were only about
>1600 copies sold. But, I would be willing to bet that there were over
>20,000 copies out there. I know, I had one of them. I felt so guilty
>about it, that I sent him a check for pirating the game. I suggest
>others do the same.
I second the motion. I sent him a check as well.
>
>>As for the maps, unless they were published in the manual (which I rather
>>doubt), then they are the creations of whomever compiled them, and they
>>do have the right to post them. What good are the maps without the game?
>
>I got all the way to the uncharted islands without the maps...
Yeah, maps would take half the fun out of it - no uncertainty, no
searching for the right disk...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Dan Harkless | "The sore in my soul |
| d...@cafws1.eng.uci.edu | The mark in my heart -> Front 242, |
| dhar...@bonnie.ics.uci.edu | Her acid reign..." Tragedy >For You< |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ONG TAT-WEE
Debate. Whatever is said, piracy is killing the Apple II line! It's
small wonder the s/w publishers dropped the Apple II from their line.
Just think a minute:
There are around 1 million Apple IIGS systems in the world. If
only say 0.001% (?!!?) of 1 million pay for original s/w, the publisher
would get (say at $20 per game), 0.001 * 1,000,000 * 20 = $20,000! Now,
comparatively, on the IBM PC side, there are around 80 million clones +
Blues around the world. Even if only 0.001% pay for original s/w, the
publisher will be getting 0.001 * 80,000,000 * 20 = $1,600,000!!
Just ask yourself. If you're the publisher, which side would you go?!!
And I personally think that 0.001% of 1 million (= 1,000) IIGS users
paying for original s/w is quite a feat! Just ask Stephen Chiang how
many users actually bought his DreamGrafix or ask Jawaid/Tim Meekins how
many actually bought GNO!
So the final line is this: If we want our Apple IIGS to survive and
thrive in this Big Blue infested world, then stop pirating and start
paying for original s/w!
- DOTW -
Bryan Ogawa
see a GS version, I've seen the IIe version, and I think it's pretty cool.
(BTW: I used to have a copy of it, when I purchased my 2nd computer, I got
some disks w/ pirated software...the Bilestoad was one of the many I
deleted...)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bryan K. Ogawa Undergraduate Computer Science and Engineering Major, UCLA
Jesus has done great things for me! II Infinitum
bko...@pro-palmtree.socal.com <-School Yr. All Yr.-> bko...@pro-apa.cts.com
--------------> From Pro-APA BBS, (213) 463-9298 (D/CALAN) <-----------------
Eric D. Shepherd
that piracy wasn't all that bad. But now that I've distributed software
(only shareware), I feel otherwise -- especially since I'm involved in a
large project which will probably be sold commercially.
Piracy is _theft_, plain and simple. Not only is it illegal (which every-
body knows... I'm not gonna lecture on that), but it's downright rude. It's
like a kick in the face to the programmers who put their efforts into the
stolen program.
Um, I have this soapbox I'm not using anymore... anybody need it?
- Eric S.
--
Eric D. Shepherd | ACM Member | Apple II Alliance Charter Member |
----------------------------------+-----------------------------------
InterNet: uer...@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu | Use FahrWorks & watch the sparks
America Online: Sheppy | fly! - Fahr Corp. Slogan
Andrew Kass
TAT-WEE) writes:
|> There are around 1 million Apple IIGS systems in the world. If
|> only say 0.001% (?!!?) of 1 million pay for original s/w, the publisher
|> would get (say at $20 per game), 0.001 * 1,000,000 * 20 = $20,000! Now,
|> comparatively, on the IBM PC side, there are around 80 million clones +
|> Blues around the world. Even if only 0.001% pay for original s/w, the
|> publisher will be getting 0.001 * 80,000,000 * 20 = $1,600,000!!
|>
|>
Just a small math reality check here:
100% of 1,000,000 = 1.00 * 1,000,000 = 1,000,000
10% of 1,000,000 = 0.10 * 1,000,000 = 100,000
1% of 1,000,000 = 0.01 * 1,000,000 = 10,000
0.1% of 1,000,000 = 0.001 * 1,000,000 = 1,000
0.01% of 1,000,000 = 0.0001 * 1,000,000 = 100
0.001% of 1,000,000 = 0.00001 * 1,000,000 = 10
Andrew
James Kyriannis
Well, sorry, but you're wrong -- in part. In theory, a PC could be made to
emulate a GS, but you would need a way to get a Soundblaster card to handle
all the sound stuff. Too much of a pain. However, the guy who wrote
APL2EMU did a great job -- and it IS freeware. He uses ROM dumps and hooks
them into his code (he includes all the assembly sound code for you to
compile/modify it yourself). To prove it to you, I would be willing to
e-mail you a uuencoded copy of APL2EM just to show you that you're wrong.
--
=============================================================================
|
Jimmy Kyriannis | +5 Chain Mail --- don't leave home without it.
ONG TAT-WEE
Thanks for pointing that silly mathematical mistake. :) In
fact, I was thinking how on earth did I ever get that sort of
calculation....and just realised that I forgot to divide by 100!
Anyway, how you folks get the point that I was trying to raise. So
whatever it is, DON'T PIRATE and save the Apple IIgs!
BTW, does anybody have any news whatsoever on KansasFest?! We Apple
IIgs users over here at Singapore are VERY EAGERLY awaiting the news.
Can somebody kindly post some KansasGoodies here?
- DOTW - :)
Jawaid Bazyar
>In article <bazyar.711852801@teal> baz...@teal.csn.org (Jawaid Bazyar) writes:
>Wow, you know each and every pirate personally and can verify this?
>Do they also drive Mercedies? You need to learn to read.
I'm telling you from personal experience, and from talking with a number
of IIgs software pirates, many of whom run BBSs. Again, even if a
particular person is too poor to afford a $30 game (very unlikely),
does this mean that it is okay for him to pirate it?
>I need to check some numbers, but I bet that the claimed lost profits
>exceed the expendable income of America. If this is the case, the argument
>cannot be valid.
Why is that? Let's say that Microsoft has sold 5 million copies of Windows.
Let's say that there are 40 million pirates copies in use. That's $400mil
right there that morally and legally belongs to Microsoft. Now, start
adding up all of the other heavily pirated packages for machines and
yes, I can see how you might very well achieve a number that exceeds the
amount of money Americans have to spend. Does this mean then that since
technically it's not lost profits that these pirates aren't doing any harm
by pirating? In addition, there's still a lot of money that Americans
_do_ have to spend that isn't going where it belongs.
>And it is also your issue, not mine. If you want to talk about the lost
>profits argument, I will be glad to. As for the rest, you go non-linear,
>and seem to think that I said and implied tons of stuff that I absolutely
>did not say or imply. You even went as far as to edit out the line where
>I said that I am not defending piracy, just attacking the lost-profits
>argument. And I did not mean in general, but as it is being used by the
>software industry, specifically, and only.
Okay, fine.
>Is this really Jawaid? This is the first time I have seen you rant. And
>it is really sad that you went so far beyond what I had said to do so.
Yes, it's really me. I got off on a tangent, one that's becoming
very important to me. I apologize if I insinuated anything about you
in particular, but it's sad to see any IIgs enthusiast _not_ come
up in arms against piracy.
Jawaid Bazyar
>baz...@teal.csn.org (Jawaid Bazyar) writes:
>> The lost profits argument is valid. It's like saying, well, these
>> people now have this software. If they have it on their computer, and
>> use it, that's lost profits to the company whether the jackass pirate
>> had the money to pay for it or not.
> The lost profits argument is vapor, because you don't have any objec-
>tive handle on what your stolen program is really worth (as opposed to the
>price you arbitrarily stick on it.) There's nothing to keep you from
>setting the price of your shareware program at one billion dollars U.S. per
>copy, and then claiming one billion bucks of lost profit each time it gets
>pirated. You can work yourself into a lather over this ("I could have been
>as rich as Bill Gates! I could have been as rich as Scrooge McDuck! But the
>damn pirates stole my fortune!") but this rests on two false assumptions:
> 1) You assume your program is in fact worth whatever you say it's worth,
> so if you decide you're losing twenty bucks per piracy then you really
> are, or if you decide you're losing a billion bucks per piracy then
> that's your true economic loss also.
If someone doesn't think a program is worth the sticker price, that
*DOES NOT* give them the right to pirate it. Capitalism works because
someone either thinks a product is worth a certain amount, and purchases
it, or they think it _isn't_ worth a certain amount, and they don't
purchase it. If a particular company is having a hard time selling a
product, they lower the price to try to increase sales. Any Econ 101
textbook will tell you that.
It's simple- if you use software and do not pay for it, you're
committing a crime. Perhaps this personally incriminates you, causing
you discomfort. Not my problem, and not an excuse to pirate.
I tell you what. Everyone knows Porsches are overpriced. If you _truly_
believe what you're saying as regards to piracy, go out and steal
a Porsche. After all, it's got an arbitrary sticker price, right? After
all, it's not hurting Porsche Co because you'd never have paid them
anyway, right? No argument in favor of piracy can fly.
> 2) You assume that each piracy equates to a lost sale, at your arbitrary
> price, and that in every case the program would have been purchased
> if it hadn't been cloned.
Arbitrary price? I think not. We priced GNO *very* fairly, and any of
our customers will tell you that. Nintendo cartridges are (IMHO)
priced excessively. However, IIgs games that cost half what a NES
game does get pirated, simply because it's possible. THIS DOES NOT
MAKE IT RIGHT.
Rich Payne
>pay...@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>
>>In article <bazyar.711852801@teal> baz...@teal.csn.org (Jawaid Bazyar) writes:
>
>>Wow, you know each and every pirate personally and can verify this?
>>Do they also drive Mercedies? You need to learn to read.
>
> I'm telling you from personal experience, and from talking with a number
>of IIgs software pirates, many of whom run BBSs. Again, even if a
>particular person is too poor to afford a $30 game (very unlikely),
>does this mean that it is okay for him to pirate it?
I've said it several times, but you ignore it and edit it out every time.
I AM NOT AGRUING PIRACY AT ALL, you are. But not with me, with youreslf.
And you do it by taking my post out of context and misreading. Chill out.
>>I need to check some numbers, but I bet that the claimed lost profits
>>exceed the expendable income of America. If this is the case, the argument
>>cannot be valid.
>
> Why is that? Let's say that Microsoft has sold 5 million copies of Windows.
>Let's say that there are 40 million pirates copies in use. That's $400mil
>right there that morally and legally belongs to Microsoft. Now, start
>adding up all of the other heavily pirated packages for machines and
>yes, I can see how you might very well achieve a number that exceeds the
>amount of money Americans have to spend. Does this mean then that since
>technically it's not lost profits that these pirates aren't doing any harm
>by pirating? In addition, there's still a lot of money that Americans
>_do_ have to spend that isn't going where it belongs.
This is what I am arguing, the "lost profits" argument, as presented by the
software industry. Any agrument which claims losses beyond expendable
income in bogus. The money does not exist, and never did, how could it
be lost?
Piracy is another issue, which I will not argue about, and have -not- been
talking about.
And who the hell are -you- to judge that "there's still a lot of money that
Americans _do_ have to spend that isn't going where it belongs"? You have
every right to make your own financial decisions, and less than no right
to make them for others. It is none of your business.
>>And it is also your issue, not mine. If you want to talk about the lost
>>profits argument, I will be glad to. As for the rest, you go non-linear,
>>and seem to think that I said and implied tons of stuff that I absolutely
>>did not say or imply. You even went as far as to edit out the line where
>>I said that I am not defending piracy, just attacking the lost-profits
>>argument. And I did not mean in general, but as it is being used by the
>>software industry, specifically, and only.
>
> Okay, fine.
Do we have a connection? I do not want to argue this. Arguments have
in the past solved nothing, and caused a lot of bad feelings. Can we
just drop this?
>>Is this really Jawaid? This is the first time I have seen you rant. And
>>it is really sad that you went so far beyond what I had said to do so.
>
> Yes, it's really me. I got off on a tangent, one that's becoming
>very important to me. I apologize if I insinuated anything about you
>in particular, but it's sad to see any IIgs enthusiast _not_ come
>up in arms against piracy.
Yeah, just like the crusades. It is just as wrong to do evil in the name of
fighting piracy as is to pirate itself. BTW, piracy did not kill the Apple //,
Apple did.
>--
> Jawaid Bazyar | Ask me about the GNO Multitasking Environment
> Procyon, Inc. | for the Apple IIgs!
> baz...@cs.uiuc.edu | P.O Box 620334
> --Apple II Forever!-- | Littleton, CO 80162-0334 (303) 933-4649
Rich
Rich Payne
[...]
> It's simple- if you use software and do not pay for it, you're
>committing a crime.
It's simple, but absolutely wrong as stated. I use some freeware that
I have not paid for, and I have committed no crime. I have much software
that I have written for my own use, who the hell are you to tell me
that it is a crime to use it?
You've gone off the deep end Jawaid. Beyond reason, and beyond the law.
I think now that you might be wanting as a moderator. You are too
extreme, and you have stopped even trying to reason.
> Perhaps this personally incriminates you, causing
>you discomfort. Not my problem,
No, you have another problem.
> and not an excuse to pirate.
What you fail to see is that there is no connection whatsoever between
the morality/legality of piracy and the validity of the lost profits
argument.
> I tell you what. Everyone knows Porsches are overpriced. If you _truly_
>believe what you're saying as regards to piracy, go out and steal
>a Porsche.
And he has said as much about piracy as I have, nothing.
To defend the lost profits argument is _NOT_ defending piracy.
> After all, it's got an arbitrary sticker price, right? After
>all, it's not hurting Porsche Co because you'd never have paid them
>anyway, right? No argument in favor of piracy can fly.
>
>> 2) You assume that each piracy equates to a lost sale, at your arbitrary
>> price, and that in every case the program would have been purchased
>> if it hadn't been cloned.
>
> Arbitrary price? I think not. We priced GNO *very* fairly, and any of
>our customers will tell you that. Nintendo cartridges are (IMHO)
>priced excessively. However, IIgs games that cost half what a NES
>game does get pirated, simply because it's possible. THIS DOES NOT
>MAKE IT RIGHT.
Is it right to twist things around till you get something that makes
you red-faced angry? No it is not. And yet you keep doing it. You are
not arguing from the moral high-ground here, and you have the wrong
topic.
>--
> Jawaid Bazyar | Ask me about the GNO Multitasking Environment
> Procyon, Inc. | for the Apple IIgs!
> baz...@cs.uiuc.edu | P.O Box 620334
> --Apple II Forever!-- | Littleton, CO 80162-0334 (303) 933-4649
Rich
Jawaid Bazyar
^^^^^^^^^^
I thought we were going to chill out?
>Americans _do_ have to spend that isn't going where it belongs"? You have
>every right to make your own financial decisions, and less than no right
>to make them for others. It is none of your business.
It _is_ my business if Joe Schmoe buys three $10 CD's, then decides
he "doesn't have enough money" to buy a game, so he pirates it. But,
since I misread what you were saying earlier, we'll drop it.
>> Yes, it's really me. I got off on a tangent, one that's becoming
>>very important to me. I apologize if I insinuated anything about you
>>in particular, but it's sad to see any IIgs enthusiast _not_ come
>>up in arms against piracy.
>Yeah, just like the crusades. It is just as wrong to do evil in the name of
>fighting piracy as is to pirate itself. BTW, piracy did not kill the Apple //,
>Apple did.
I see. Apple killed the II with System 6.0. They killed the II with
the Ethernet card. They killed the II with the incredible, source-level
developer support from DTS. That doesn't fly. Developers left the II
for one reason: they couldn't make enough money on it. Now, whether
"enough money" means > $10M or not even enough to cover development,
piracy is a big part of this problem. DreamGrafix and Pick'n'Pile are
being sold, illegally, in France. By ex-members of the FTA and Toolbox.
These people are almost universally worshipped here in the states, but
they're hardcore pirates and just as responsible as Apple (along with all
the other pirates) for developers leaving the II. When new software is
distributed across the nation in two days, thousands upon thousands of
illegal copies, then there's a problem that needs to be addressed.
Apple is at this point giving third party developers the opportunity
to take over the IIgs, in spirit if not in name or in new hardware.
That's awfully hard to do with pirates running around all over the place.
Let me give you an example. I went to a user's group meeting in
Champaign, Illinois. Someone there asked if they could make a photocopy
of the AppleWorks 3.0 manual, since theirs was "slightly warm". It's
this kind of nonchalance, this kind of "well, piracy is bad, but it's
okay _sometimes_" that upsets me. Piracy is _never_ okay.
Marc Sira
>
> If someone doesn't think a program is worth the sticker price, that
>*DOES NOT* give them the right to pirate it. Capitalism works because
>someone either thinks a product is worth a certain amount, and purchases
>it, or they think it _isn't_ worth a certain amount, and they don't
>purchase it. If a particular company is having a hard time selling a
Actually, some of us would argue that capitalism (particularly consumer
capitalism with advertising/marketing for flavour) doesn't really work
at all. It appears to in the short term, if you're willing to readjust
your definition of "works". Of course, this has now gone off-topic.
> I tell you what. Everyone knows Porsches are overpriced. If you _truly_
>believe what you're saying as regards to piracy, go out and steal
>a Porsche. After all, it's got an arbitrary sticker price, right? After
>all, it's not hurting Porsche Co because you'd never have paid them
>anyway, right? No argument in favor of piracy can fly.
Oh, please...this is the classic misunderstanding. There are perfectly
good examples without corrupting your argument. Stealing a 911 is not at
all like stealing Windows...on the one hand, I can't copy the 911 and
distribute it to potential customers, and on the other hand a "stolen"
Windows is still saleable (particularly if I only keep it for personal
use). Traditional property law doesn't apply especially well to information
copyrights...for that matter traditional _copyright_ law doesn't really
apply to software very well. These laws are simply going to have to change,
and they will (as they have before).
I'm not advocating or denying piracy here, just pointing out a few
fallacies B-).
--
Marc Sira |
t...@micor.ocunix.on.ca | "Your god drinks...P-P-Peach nectar!"
'
Philip McDunnough
[ ]
>
> I see. Apple killed the II with System 6.0. They killed the II with
>the Ethernet card. They killed the II with the incredible, source-level
>developer support from DTS. That doesn't fly. Developers left the II
>for one reason: they couldn't make enough money on it. Now, whether
>"enough money" means > $10M or not even enough to cover development,
>piracy is a big part of this problem. DreamGrafix and Pick'n'Pile are
>being sold, illegally, in France. By ex-members of the FTA and Toolbox.
>These people are almost universally worshipped here in the states, but
>they're hardcore pirates and just as responsible as Apple (along with all
>the other pirates) for developers leaving the II. When new software is
>distributed across the nation in two days, thousands upon thousands of
>illegal copies, then there's a problem that needs to be addressed.
> Apple is at this point giving third party developers the opportunity
>to take over the IIgs, in spirit if not in name or in new hardware.
>That's awfully hard to do with pirates running around all over the place.
>Let me give you an example. I went to a user's group meeting in
>Champaign, Illinois. Someone there asked if they could make a photocopy
>of the AppleWorks 3.0 manual, since theirs was "slightly warm". It's
>this kind of nonchalance, this kind of "well, piracy is bad, but it's
>okay _sometimes_" that upsets me. Piracy is _never_ okay.
The GS has the opportunity of truly becoming the only real personal
computer around. The basics are all in place. The hardware needs updating,
but should the Avatar come to pass then things could be most interesting.
What is Pick'n'Pile?
Many months ago I dared say something semi-negative re FTA et al, and my
mailbox was flooded with idiotic messages for weeks. Hope you have a thicker
skin.
Piracy will stop on the GS once people realize (1) if it continues, noone
will write for the GS and (2) people have to feel secure that they are
purchasing software from developers who will stand behind their product.
As for AppleWorks3.0, I'm a registered user of the GS version, but while
I have manulas in excellent condition I the disks were lost during a recent
move. It would help if Claris was aware of the product!
While I generally agree with your views on piracy for the GS, I can help
looking at the thousands of dollars of sw I've spent for it and wondering
why much of it won't work properly ( after each System upgarde something
would break) and these companies don't seem to care.
While I'm at it I'm still trying to get the title page for DWGS to show.
Someone mentioned a patch on AoL. Do you know Bill H's e-mail address?
Don't let the ... get to you.
Philip McDunnough
phi...@utstat.toronto.edu
Rich Payne
>pay...@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>
>
>>This is what I am arguing, the "lost profits" argument, as presented by the
>>software industry. Any agrument which claims losses beyond expendable
>>income in bogus. The money does not exist, and never did, how could it
>>be lost?
>
>>Piracy is another issue, which I will not argue about, and have -not- been
>>talking about.
>
>>And who the hell are -you- to judge that "there's still a lot of money that
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^
>I thought we were going to chill out?
OK, sorry, lets do.
>>Americans _do_ have to spend that isn't going where it belongs"? You have
>>every right to make your own financial decisions, and less than no right
>>to make them for others. It is none of your business.
>
> It _is_ my business if Joe Schmoe buys three $10 CD's, then decides
>he "doesn't have enough money" to buy a game, so he pirates it. But,
>since I misread what you were saying earlier, we'll drop it.
This is not what you said. And I do not see that this neccessarily
follows, it is just one of a near-infinite number of possible situations.
Regardless, you have no right to judge how others should specd their
money. You have every right to judge for yourself.
>>> Yes, it's really me. I got off on a tangent, one that's becoming
>>>very important to me. I apologize if I insinuated anything about you
>>>in particular, but it's sad to see any IIgs enthusiast _not_ come
>>>up in arms against piracy.
>
>>Yeah, just like the crusades. It is just as wrong to do evil in the name of
>>fighting piracy as is to pirate itself. BTW, piracy did not kill the Apple //,
>>Apple did.
>
> I see. Apple killed the II with System 6.0. They killed the II with
>the Ethernet card. They killed the II with the incredible, source-level
>developer support from DTS.
Apple is doing some strange things. There was a long debate which asked
the quite reasonable question, why System 6.0?
Why Apple continues to do development on a computer that they refuse
to advertise and that most MAC dealers would probably be unable to order
is an open question.
BTW, the ethernet card has not been released, so is still vaporware.
And from what I hear, the support for the // development is nothing
compared to the support for the MAC software. And are not some of the
major DTS players working on the MAC now?
> That doesn't fly. Developers left the II
>for one reason: they couldn't make enough money on it. Now, whether
>"enough money" means > $10M or not even enough to cover development,
>piracy is a big part of this problem.
You don't think that it's possible that Apple //gs wares did not sell
because they were incredibly sluggish, the OS was an 8-bit OS with extensions
till long after the market had died, the computer came without enough memory
to run any reasonable programs till long after the market had died, Apple
fixed the //gs by breaking the entire software base with the ROM 3, etc...
There are a thousand reasons, and I do not think that piracy was a major
reason. In fact, I am positive that the ROM3 upgrade did more damage to
the //gs than piracy.
> DreamGrafix and Pick'n'Pile are
>being sold, illegally, in France. By ex-members of the FTA and Toolbox.
>These people are almost universally worshipped here in the states, but
>they're hardcore pirates and just as responsible as Apple (along with all
>the other pirates) for developers leaving the II. When new software is
>distributed across the nation in two days, thousands upon thousands of
>illegal copies, then there's a problem that needs to be addressed.
And piracy has killed the MAC markets and the PC markets as well, right?
It is no different there.
> Apple is at this point giving third party developers the opportunity
>to take over the IIgs, in spirit if not in name or in new hardware.
How so? Avatar is Burger Bill's idea, and it remains to be seen if
he will get to dance with Apples Legal department. Let's wait and see.
>That's awfully hard to do with pirates running around all over the place.
I think you have placed responsibility for the current situation in
the wrong area.
>Let me give you an example. I went to a user's group meeting in
>Champaign, Illinois. Someone there asked if they could make a photocopy
>of the AppleWorks 3.0 manual, since theirs was "slightly warm". It's
>this kind of nonchalance, this kind of "well, piracy is bad, but it's
>okay _sometimes_" that upsets me. Piracy is _never_ okay.
If IBM handled the PC like Apple handled the //, MAC would rule today.
And evil done in the name of fighting piracy is still evil.
>--
> Jawaid Bazyar | Ask me about the GNO Multitasking Environment
> Procyon, Inc. | for the Apple IIgs!
> baz...@cs.uiuc.edu | P.O Box 620334
> --Apple II Forever!-- | Littleton, CO 80162-0334 (303) 933-4649
Rich
Philip McDunnough
[More re piracy, etc...]
>
>Apple is doing some strange things. There was a long debate which asked
>the quite reasonable question, why System 6.0?
>
>Why Apple continues to do development on a computer that they refuse
>to advertise and that most MAC dealers would probably be unable to order
>is an open question.
Yes and an interesting one. There are, in my view, 2 very good reasons. The
first is the installed base in schools. That's probably the reason for
the Ethernet card, HCGS, etc...and in large part System6.0 . In addition
each system upgrade has tied the GS closer to the Mac to the point where
it makes more sense to complement GS's with LC's than with PC's.
Another reason, I feel, is that Apple does not want someone building a
system along the lines of the GS, but with improved graphics and speed etc...,
and keeping the GS on the price lists helps their case in going after any
clones.
The 65816 processor is taking on the 68k in game consoles and is in the
process of dominating the market. There has been an incredible surge of
SNES sales recently as compared to the Sega Genesis. Moreover, in January
Nintendo will release its joint ventured (with Philips) CD-I compatible
reader for around $200 [Note I did not say CD-ROM.]. Thus for $300 people
will have an amazing CD-I, Kodak Photo CD, etc...system which will also
play SNES games and sw. The initial run is said to be 300k units/month. This
has to have someone at Apple thinking. Basically, if the Avatar were to
come to be, why on earth would anybody get a Mac, PC, etc...
The Mac and the PC are general workhorse computers. They get the job done,
but they are basically dull. The gaming, entertainment, information, etc...
revolution that will come with the SNES CD-I drive has everyone thinking
twice. Forget about CD-ROM based stuff. It's never been successful
except for distributing OS's and causing my NeXT's M.O. to be obsolete, a
move which NeXT will one day regret.
The home market is potentially enormous. A computer such as the Avatar could
be an incredible success. What I'm saying is that CD's are going to enter
the home, but not via CDTV (which I have), CD-I from Philips (too expensive)
but via the SNES and its $200 CD-I compatible unit.
Apple messed up with the GS. The LC/LCII will never be an enormous success.
It will do well, but just think of developers with potential makets of
500,000+ for SNES games, and no pirating ( or very little).
The GS could ride the wave of success of the SNES CD-I unit. Apple knows
this. So does Bill H.
What I am saying is that virtually every home will have a SNES/CD-I unit.
Should they need a computer it could be an inexpensive clone or the
Avatar. It won't be a Mac.
[ ]
Philip McDunnough
phi...@utstat.toronto.edu
Joe Kohn
RE: FAQ
I think that we all should give a great big round of applause to Dan
Demaggio for the great job he's doing with the monthly FAQ.
Good job, Dan!! Keep it up.
Joe kohn
Matthew Curtin
> > 2) You assume that each piracy equates to a lost sale, at your arbitrary
> > price, and that in every case the program would have been purchased
> > if it hadn't been cloned.
>
> Arbitrary price? I think not. We priced GNO *very* fairly, and any of
> our customers will tell you that. Nintendo cartridges are (IMHO)
> priced excessively. However, IIgs games that cost half what a NES
> game does get pirated, simply because it's possible. THIS DOES NOT
> MAKE IT RIGHT.
As a Procyon customer, I feel I must speak my peace on this.
GNO, is, I believe, worth much more than its sticker price. Consider what
a similar product on an Intel box (eek!) would cost. However, Procyon has
made every effort to keep the price of their software from becoming too
much for the average GS user to buy. If I remember correctly, when the
announcement was made about the formation of Procyon, this was something
specifically stated. In any case, Procyon has given us a tremendous
product at a price that is more than reasonable.
Someone mentioned earlier that they are going to buy GNO now, because they
downloaded a copy from a pirate BBS and liked it. He then justified piracy
for the purpose of giving software the chance to be used and tested before
it's purchased. Some people don't seem to understand that a commercial
product is "shareware" for them just because it costs more money than they
have sitting in their wallet at the moment. The fact of the matter is
this: Pirates, regardless of their intent, are killing the machine they
claim to love. If they do not pay for the software they use WHEN THEY
SHOULD (in the case of Shareware, after they've tested it; in the case of
commercial software, before they take it home to use it), the developers
will not be able to get the money that is due to them for their efforts.
Please allow me to quote from the GNO documentation:
"...We are Apple II programmers born, bred, and raised in the spirit of
the machine; we love to program it, and probably always will. But if we
cannot make enough moeny to make it worthwhile to continue work on GNO,
then we won't; because by _worthwhile_, we mean not only food on the
table, but resources for expansion; the expansion of our IIgs product line
and support to IIgs owners being abandoned by the rest of the industry. In
short, support us and we'll support you."
We cannot expect great programmers who could make tremendous amounts of
money programming other machines to write great software for us IIgs users
out of the goodness of their hearts.
I think that a problem we might be having with this argument is this: Few
pirates are willing to come forward with any reasons why they steal
software. Many of us who speak about piracy do so against it, and,
therefore, do not understand the mindset of the pirate. The issues
involving piracy are many; perhaps we are not addressing the right ones to
cause pirates to think twice about what they're doing...
Thank you, Procyon, for continuing to support us with your great software.
(P.S. Do I get free upgrades on GNO from now on? ;-) )
product costs $80, and they don't have that money sitting in their wallet.
> --
> Jawaid Bazyar | Ask me about the GNO Multitasking Environment
> Procyon, Inc. | for the Apple IIgs!
> baz...@cs.uiuc.edu | P.O Box 620334
> --Apple II Forever!-- | Littleton, CO 80162-0334 (303) 933-4649
___________________________________________________________________________
| C. Matthew Curtin ! "But I am the enlightened one, they are |
| P.O. Box 27081 ! but mere sheep, following each other in |
| Columbus, OH 43227-0081 ! the name of compatibility." -B. Heineman |
| cmcu...@bluemoon.uucp ! Apple II Forever! |
|_cmcurtin%blue...@nstar.rn.com!_____________Support__Shareware!__________|
Shane M Zatezalo
>
>As a Procyon customer, I feel I must speak my peace on this.
>
>GNO, is, I believe, worth much more than its sticker price. Consider what
>a similar product on an Intel box (eek!) would cost. However, Procyon has
>made every effort to keep the price of their software from becoming too
>much for the average GS user to buy. If I remember correctly, when the
>announcement was made about the formation of Procyon, this was something
>specifically stated. In any case, Procyon has given us a tremendous
>product at a price that is more than reasonable.
>
>Someone mentioned earlier that they are going to buy GNO now, because they
>downloaded a copy from a pirate BBS and liked it.
That /might/ have been me. And yes, I did download the beta of GNO that got
out (quite a while ago), and was impressed, even though it did bomb out quite
a bit. (hey, it was a beta). (and, incase you are wondering, I have purchased
GNO)
Believe it or not, I think that beta of GNO getting out rather helped
Procyon. (I can see the heat from the flames coming :) ) Why would I think
that? From the people that I know that tried that beta out, all of them went
on to buy the product. (and most of them, for the most part, buy software
only after trying it out...) Granted, the beta hardly worked, but it was more
like a demo of what you'd get /after/ you paid for it... and it showed people
that GNO did infact exist, and work.
Besides, its not like anyone can /really/ use a pirated version of GNO. What
is someone going to do, call up and ask them questions about it if they
haven't bought it? Yeah, right. (that would take some stupidity or balls,
which I'm not sure) The same thing is probably true with packages such as
Proline and Metal... you will need support to use the product.
> He then justified piracy for the purpose of giving software the chance
> to be used and tested before it's purchased.
I see nothing wrong with this, as long as if its going to be used, it is
then purchased, or its deleted. (Yeah, I know, not many people do that, but
it'd be nice....)
> Some people don't seem to understand that a commercial product is
>"shareware" for them just because it costs more money than they
>have sitting in their wallet at the moment. The fact of the matter is
>this: Pirates, regardless of their intent, are killing the machine they
>claim to love.
Oh, give me a break. Apple killed the II, not pirates. And if it weren't
for the installed school base, Apple probably (IMHO) would have dropped the
II by now.
> If they do not pay for the software they use WHEN THEY SHOULD (in
>the case of Shareware, after they've tested it; in the case of
>commercial software, before they take it home to use it), the developers
>will not be able to get the money that is due to them for their efforts.
No way... so you are telling me you walk into a computer store, look at
the package of a program, read the description, and say "Oh, it sounds nice,
I'll buy it, open it (hence it can't be returned) and try it out then."
You're nuts! There is just too much software out there that isn't good.
Hey, if you're rich, you can do this, but I doubt the normal joe american
could ever afford to do it. (I know I can't)
>Please allow me to quote from the GNO documentation:
>
>"...We are Apple II programmers born, bred, and raised
>... In short, support us and we'll support you."
>We cannot expect great programmers who could make tremendous amounts of
>money programming other machines to write great software for us IIgs users
>out of the goodness of their hearts.
We can't???? :)
>I think that a problem we might be having with this argument is this: Few
>pirates are willing to come forward with any reasons why they steal
>software.
No... if people do come forward and say exactly why they do it (especially
here on csa2) they are /hounded/ and totally ridiculed, and basically driven
away from the discussion about it. (please, no opinions on whether or not
this should happen, ok?)
>Many of us who speak about piracy do so against it, and,
>therefore, do not understand the mindset of the pirate. The issues
>involving piracy are many; perhaps we are not addressing the right ones to
>cause pirates to think twice about what they're doing...
No, the normal "joe pirate" seems to be buying more these days. (IMHO)
>Thank you, Procyon, for continuing to support us with your great software.
here here!
_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
: Shane M. Zatezalo : i-net> szat...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu :
: CIS Eng Ohio State : Who'd ya expect, Elmer Fudd? - M. Jordan :
:GS:::: Apple II forever!! ::::::GO BUCKS!::::::: Play Lacrosse! :::::::GS:
Martin Georg
>In article <bazyar.712366903@teal> baz...@teal.csn.org (Jawaid Bazyar) writes:
>
>[...]
>
>> It's simple- if you use software and do not pay for it, you're
>>committing a crime.
>
>It's simple, but absolutely wrong as stated. I use some freeware that
>I have not paid for, and I have committed no crime. I have much software
>that I have written for my own use, who the hell are you to tell me
>that it is a crime to use it?
I followed this discussion for some time now and I think it's time to add
my own opinion to it. I think that Jawaid is absolutely right in term of
the piracy issue. And you, Rich, should accept that. Any software which
is either shareware (and used beyond the trial period) or commercial is
protected by the copyright law. And if someone uses this software without
being authorized to do so (by paying for it) he's doin'a crime (right gram-
mar???).
On the other hand there must be something wrong with the "lost profits" argu-
ment mostly big software companies are stating. Some people simply pirate
software because they are collecting (without ever using it), some other
are doin'it as a sport, and some other simply don't want to pay. And by this,
not every pirated copy of software would otherwise directly turn into a sold
software package.
>You've gone off the deep end Jawaid. Beyond reason, and beyond the law.
>I think now that you might be wanting as a moderator. You are too
>extreme, and you have stopped even trying to reason.
I think this is an extremely unfair argument (if it is an argument at all)
against Jawaid. His efforts to become a moderator on c.b.a2 have nothing to
do with this discussion and you know that very well. Your statement adds
nothing constructive to the debate.
[...]
>> Arbitrary price? I think not. We priced GNO *very* fairly, and any of
>>our customers will tell you that. Nintendo cartridges are (IMHO)
>>priced excessively. However, IIgs games that cost half what a NES
>>game does get pirated, simply because it's possible. THIS DOES NOT
>>MAKE IT RIGHT.
>
>Is it right to twist things around till you get something that makes
>you red-faced angry? No it is not. And yet you keep doing it. You are
>not arguing from the moral high-ground here, and you have the wrong
>topic.
This is another silly response, in my opinion. Personal attacks do not
help in any way.
Personally I think that the piracy problem in the Apple II world (and there
IS a piracy problem!!!) helped killing the Apple II very much. A lot of
software houses left the Apple II simply because they could not see any
way to make profit in this market with this high level of piracy. And this
gave Apple Computer Inc. the perfect opportunity to support this way by not
supporting further development of the CPU - internally in their company as
well as outside.
>>--
>> Jawaid Bazyar | Ask me about the GNO Multitasking Environment
>> Procyon, Inc. | for the Apple IIgs!
>> baz...@cs.uiuc.edu | P.O Box 620334
>> --Apple II Forever!-- | Littleton, CO 80162-0334 (303) 933-4649
>
>Rich
>
>pay...@netcom.com
Martin Georg
Leiter Apple IIgs AG, AUGE e.V., Germany
--
****************************************************************************
* Martin Georg - Frauenhofstrasse 31 - D-6000 Frankfurt am Main 71 *
* sp...@incom.de - FIDO: 2:249/8.0 or 2:243/100 *
*** ----> Ask me about Formulate GS - The FIRST IIgs formula editor <---- **
Rich Payne
>In article <avnmy+_...@netcom.com> pay...@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>>In article <bazyar.712366903@teal> baz...@teal.csn.org (Jawaid Bazyar) writes:
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>> It's simple- if you use software and do not pay for it, you're
>>>committing a crime.
>>
>>It's simple, but absolutely wrong as stated. I use some freeware that
>>I have not paid for, and I have committed no crime. I have much software
>>that I have written for my own use, who the hell are you to tell me
>>that it is a crime to use it?
>
>I followed this discussion for some time now and I think it's time to add
>my own opinion to it. I think that Jawaid is absolutely right in term of
>the piracy issue. And you, Rich, should accept that.
Why, you do not accept that I am not and was not talking about piracy.
My topic has been the "lost profits" argument, nothing more, nothing else.
[...]
>On the other hand there must be something wrong with the "lost profits" argu-
>ment mostly big software companies are stating. Some people simply pirate
>software because they are collecting (without ever using it), some other
>are doin'it as a sport, and some other simply don't want to pay. And by this,
>not every pirated copy of software would otherwise directly turn into a sold
>software package.
Here is the OTHER fallacy. That there is any connection between piracy
and the lost profits argument. If you think that stating that the "lost
profits" argument is bogus as used by the software industry is in any way
advocating or validating piracy, than you have gone beyond reading between
the lines and started writing stuff that was never there.
The first fallacy is that talking about the LPA is talking about piracy.
I have no wish to argue the piracy issue, I am only willing to argue
the "lost profits" argument (LPA).
[...]
>>You've gone off the deep end Jawaid. Beyond reason, and beyond the law.
>>I think now that you might be wanting as a moderator. You are too
>>extreme, and you have stopped even trying to reason.
>
>I think this is an extremely unfair argument (if it is an argument at all)
>against Jawaid. His efforts to become a moderator on c.b.a2 have nothing to
>do with this discussion and you know that very well. Your statement adds
>nothing constructive to the debate.
That does not give him the right to misread my words then all but flame me
for what he misread. And it does not give you the right either. BTW,
Jawaid and I have made peace via email. And I do not think that he would
need you to defend him if we had not.
>[...]
>
>>> Arbitrary price? I think not. We priced GNO *very* fairly, and any of
>>>our customers will tell you that. Nintendo cartridges are (IMHO)
>>>priced excessively. However, IIgs games that cost half what a NES
>>>game does get pirated, simply because it's possible. THIS DOES NOT
>>>MAKE IT RIGHT.
>>
>>Is it right to twist things around till you get something that makes
>>you red-faced angry? No it is not. And yet you keep doing it. You are
>>not arguing from the moral high-ground here, and you have the wrong
>>topic.
BTW, I did not post anything about "arbitrary price"s, this was from
something posted by someone else. So it is silly in a way, but not the
way you seem to think. Just how close were you following this thread?
>This is another silly response, in my opinion. Personal attacks do not
>help in any way.
Which part is personal, and why is it silly that I am upset at being
misrepresented? I would like to point out that caps=yelling.
>Personally I think that the piracy problem in the Apple II world (and there
>IS a piracy problem!!!) helped killing the Apple II very much.
And for this very same reason, no profit can be made in the MAC and MS-DOS
software markets. Why is it that every trip to the store denies that this
is the case?
> A lot of
>software houses left the Apple II simply because they could not see any
>way to make profit in this market with this high level of piracy. And this
>gave Apple Computer Inc. the perfect opportunity to support this way by not
>supporting further development of the CPU - internally in their company as
>well as outside.
And very few software houses re-wrote their progarms for the ROM3, or
wrote any more for the //gs after that. Apple broke the existing software
base. This (IMHO) is what killed software companies interest in the //gs,
and Apples MAC only approach did not help.
>>>--
>>> Jawaid Bazyar | Ask me about the GNO Multitasking Environment
>>
>>Rich
>>pay...@netcom.com
>
>Martin Georg
>Leiter Apple IIgs AG, AUGE e.V., Germany
Rich again
tuu
}I have not paid for, and I have committed no crime. I have much software
}that I have written for my own use, who the hell are you to tell me
}that it is a crime to use it?
You know, you are really off the deep end.. You're being
semantically picky, when you should know very well what Jawaid was talking
about.
Of COURSE freeware and software that you've written are legal to
use. Don't be a bonehead.
I'm staying out of the rest of this discussion mainly as I've been
on both sides of the issue and been in the discussion too many times before..
McFadden: You think you should make an addendum to your (infamous)
"Cycles of comp.sys.apple2"? Every 3 months: A big long boring piracy
debate.. unsolvable, just like convincing a priest that there is no god is.
--
/unk...@ucscb.ucsc.edu used ADB trackball WANTED Apple II Forever!\
\Mail me:Get INFOCOM GAMES RERELEASED,ULT VI GS done,for UNIX GS&CHEAP CD info/
What the world needs now is another folk singer like I need a hole in my head.
Rich Payne
>
>In article <avnmy+_...@netcom.com> pay...@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>}It's simple, but absolutely wrong as stated. I use some freeware that
>}I have not paid for, and I have committed no crime. I have much software
>}that I have written for my own use, who the hell are you to tell me
>}that it is a crime to use it?
>
> You know, you are really off the deep end.. You're being
>semantically picky, when you should know very well what Jawaid was talking
>about.
>
> Of COURSE freeware and software that you've written are legal to
>use. Don't be a bonehead.
I may be a bonehead, but I can read. You omitted the text where Jawaid
clearly said that if you did not -pay- for the software you are committing
a crime. I said that it's absolutely wrong as stated, and it is. I'd
rather be a bonehead that have a reading problem and be quoting impaired.
And BTW, I find your bonehead assertion rather a personal attack.
> I'm staying out of the rest of this discussion mainly as I've been
>on both sides of the issue and been in the discussion too many times before..
>
> McFadden: You think you should make an addendum to your (infamous)
>"Cycles of comp.sys.apple2"? Every 3 months: A big long boring piracy
>debate.. unsolvable, just like convincing a priest that there is no god is.
Add in also that many have such strong personal feelings that at the
first hint of piracy, they froth at the eyes and cannot read straight.
And that others must just jump in to make unwarrented personal attacks.
>--
>/unk...@ucscb.ucsc.edu used ADB trackball WANTED Apple II Forever!\
Rich
David....@bbs.actrix.gen.nz
>
> And very few software houses re-wrote their progarms for the ROM3, or
> wrote any more for the //gs after that. Apple broke the existing software
> base. This (IMHO) is what killed software companies interest in the //gs,
> and Apples MAC only approach did not help.
What is this "rewrote their programs for the ROM3" rubbish?
Any program written to follow Apple's guidelines for the IIgs should
work equally well on the ROM 01 or ROM 03.
Badly behaved programs that make assumptions about memory locations or
ROM routines won't work, but they shouldn't have been written with
those assumptions in the first place.
I have both a ROM 01 and ROM 03. So far I have found TWO programs
that don't work properly on a ROM 03. In one case, a newer version
fixed the problem. The other one isn't serious.
Would someone mind telling me which programs supposedly don't work on
a ROM 03 but do on a ROM 01?
I had more trouble going from ROM 00 to ROM 01 (mostly with old games).
--
David Empson
Internet: David....@bbs.actrix.gen.nz EMPS...@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
Snail mail: P.O. Box 27-103, Wellington, New Zealand
Philip McDunnough
>In article <z!rma1-....@netcom.com> pay...@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>>
>> And very few software houses re-wrote their progarms for the ROM3, or
>> wrote any more for the //gs after that. Apple broke the existing software
>> base. This (IMHO) is what killed software companies interest in the //gs,
>> and Apples MAC only approach did not help.
>
>What is this "rewrote their programs for the ROM3" rubbish?
This is very true. The problem was very few supported System5.0x and part of
that was in the ROM03 ROM's. I had a lot of problems with a lot of software.
It's taken years for most of the stuff to finally work properly. Just consider
PaintWorks Gold, Deluxe Paint II, Arts and Animatiom ( or some title I can't
remember- like SAP, but commercial and expensive), a lot of FTA stuff,
ShufflePuck Cafe which was never released, virtually all The Learning
Company products (expensive, nice and gone),...There were patches for some
of these, and of course the pirated copies generally worked fine which was
even more annoying for people who bought the program, Kids Time II,...Of
course programming things were upgraded, but it seemed as though each System
release broke a few more programs.
>
>Any program written to follow Apple's guidelines for the IIgs should
>work equally well on the ROM 01 or ROM 03.
Apple's guidelines for both the GS and Mac are not straightforward, which is
why people have trouble programming for each computer. Compare this to
OS/2 which went to great pains to make the development tools fairly
accessible to DOS programmers (as opposed to Windows which is a programming
nightmare, so I'm told).
Anyway, the point is it isn't easy to program either the Mac or the GS.
It wasn't worth it for companies to keep programming for a machine that
had such a small user base compared to other platforms [I'm talking of
big companies.].
>
>Badly behaved programs that make assumptions about memory locations or
>ROM routines won't work, but they shouldn't have been written with
>those assumptions in the first place.
Fine for you to say that. Perhaps you'd care to reimburse me for all those
programs which no longer work properly.
[ ]
Philip McDunnough
phi...@utstat.toronto.edu
Brian Tao
>
>You don't think that it's possible that Apple //gs wares did not sell
>because they were incredibly sluggish, the OS was an 8-bit OS with extensions
>till long after the market had died, the computer came without enough memory
>to run any reasonable programs till long after the market had died, Apple
>fixed the //gs by breaking the entire software base with the ROM 3, etc...
There isn't one single reason why the GS market isn't as vigorous as
the IBM/Mac/Amiga markets. As far as I can see, the two *major* reasons are
inadequate support from Apple and software piracy. The reasons you cited
above are all a direct result of Apple not doing enough to make the GS a
viable platform in the 80's when it was still a pretty hot item. Apple
COULD HAVE given us a 16-bit OS from the start, they COULD HAVE given us
1 megabyte of RAM on the ROM 01, they COULD HAVE used a faster '816 from
WDC, etc., etc. Of course, they did eventually get around to the first
two, but by that time it was a case of too little too late.
The few employees left working on the Apple II at Apple area bunch of
extremely talented and dedicated individuals, but they can only do so
much on their own. If Apple doesn't give them the R&D personnel and
budget, we won't see new models of the Apple II. Apple certainly isn't
going to promote the Apple II any longer. What good will the SuperDrive,
the SWIM disk controller, System 6.0.x and the EtherTalk card do if no one
knows about it?
>And piracy has killed the MAC markets and the PC markets as well, right?
>It is no different there.
You're comparing the two largest PC markets to the Apple II. There
seems to be a point where a market becomes "self-sufficient". There are
so many IBM/Mac users than 90% of them can pirate software while the
software companies still make enough money off the remaining 10% who pay
for the software. The Amiga, OTOH, may not have reached this level. If
Commodore suddenly decides to cancel (or reduce) support for the entire
Amiga line, it too will drop out of sight within five years. Piracy is
also rampant in the Amiga world. If software vendors suddenly realize
Commodore will no longer support it, they too will eventually switch their
focus to other markets.
>If IBM handled the PC like Apple handled the //, MAC would rule today.
At least we all seem to agree on something.
--
Brian T. Tao =*8-) | ::::::::> tcom...@chasm.scar.utoronto.ca <::::::::
Dept. of Exobiology | :::::> generic!terranet!ta...@zoo.toronto.edu <:::::
University of Toronto | "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't."
Philip McDunnough
>pay...@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes...
>>
>>You don't think that it's possible that Apple //gs wares did not sell
>>because they were incredibly sluggish, the OS was an 8-bit OS with extensions
>>till long after the market had died, the computer came without enough memory
>>to run any reasonable programs till long after the market had died, Apple
>>fixed the //gs by breaking the entire software base with the ROM 3, etc...
There's much to be said for this statement. The GS was not a viable
non-educational product until System5.0x/ROM03 and then things had
deteriorated badly.
>
> There isn't one single reason why the GS market isn't as vigorous as
>the IBM/Mac/Amiga markets. As far as I can see, the two *major* reasons are
>inadequate support from Apple and software piracy. The reasons you cited
>above are all a direct result of Apple not doing enough to make the GS a
>viable platform in the 80's when it was still a pretty hot item. Apple
>COULD HAVE given us a 16-bit OS from the start, they COULD HAVE given us
>1 megabyte of RAM on the ROM 01, they COULD HAVE used a faster '816 from
>WDC, etc., etc. Of course, they did eventually get around to the first
>two, but by that time it was a case of too little too late.
There are very good reasons why the PC and Amiga worlds are more vigorous.
The most important is the fact that most GS's are in schools. That leaves
maybe 250,000 GS's elsewhere. Compare that to 3,000,000 Amiga's and
zillions of PC's. The Mac market is vigorous in very specific areas. It
has hardly taken the home market by storm, it's too hard to program for,
few games of note, etc...Basically the desktop market in the Mac/PC area
for general computing has been won by the 486. It's not for nothing that
NeXt is moving its OS to the Intel platform. Same with Sun. Other major
vendors have also started selling Intel based solutions vigorously (DEC, HP).
There's always hope, I suppose, for the Power PC. However very few
collaborative efforts have ever brought anything of note to the world. Most
good results come from small teams. Not huge bureacratic entities that take
years to decide on management teams.
The Amiga has a very good niche market in desktop video. Their gaming side
will be really hurt by the upcoming SNES/CD-I unit.
The best hope for the GS is the Avatar.
And, yes, I do feel Apple deliberately did in the GS. Systems 5,6 and the
Ethernet/Ethertalk card and HCGS were done under pressure from the education
community. That community wanted a way to slowly ease out of the GS towards
the Mac LC (and/or move to PC's). There has been a systematic plot on the
part of Apple to discourage individuals from buying the GS for several
years. That's one reason developers left. There was no encouragement from
Apple that the GS would evolve, and many could not live off an educational
base that would dwindle over time. That leaves the small programmer and
Hyperstudio. Both should be encouraged. The GS can evolve into the Avatar
and become a great success without having Apple trying to stop it.
Piracy had very, very little effect in what happened. It will, however,
determine what will happen.
> The few employees left working on the Apple II at Apple area bunch of
>extremely talented and dedicated individuals, but they can only do so
>much on their own. If Apple doesn't give them the R&D personnel and
>budget, we won't see new models of the Apple II. Apple certainly isn't
>going to promote the Apple II any longer. What good will the SuperDrive,
>the SWIM disk controller, System 6.0.x and the EtherTalk card do if no one
>knows about it?
It will bring the GS closer to the Mac in schools. We will see new GS models,
but not from Apple.
>
>>And piracy has killed the MAC markets and the PC markets as well, right?
>>It is no different there.
>
> You're comparing the two largest PC markets to the Apple II. There
>seems to be a point where a market becomes "self-sufficient". There are
>so many IBM/Mac users than 90% of them can pirate software while the
>software companies still make enough money off the remaining 10% who pay
>for the software. The Amiga, OTOH, may not have reached this level. If
>Commodore suddenly decides to cancel (or reduce) support for the entire
>Amiga line, it too will drop out of sight within five years. Piracy is
>also rampant in the Amiga world. If software vendors suddenly realize
>Commodore will no longer support it, they too will eventually switch their
>focus to other markets.
Most of Commodore's revenue comes from the Amiga. They are committed to it,
and have brought out their A600 in an attempt to curb piracy on that
platform.
For the GS, it's all very simple. If people want to see it thrive and evolve
into the Avatar, then piracy should stop.
For the PC and Mac markets piracy has become a way of life, much like
lending people books, videos, SNES games, etc...A computer has to be
very special and the software very inexpensive in order for it to
survive under the assumption of no piracy. If people had to use their
own money to buy software, do you think they'd have PC's and Mac's and
NeXT's, etc...at home? You are in the world of the $300 program and $150
update. Remove piracy from the PC market and the number of units at home
would converge to zero.
>
>>If IBM handled the PC like Apple handled the //, MAC would rule today.
>
> At least we all seem to agree on something.
IBM is not in charge of the PC world. That world is dominated by clones
( kind of hardware piracy), software copying, etc...The Mac could never
rule. It would be like having a monopoly win out over a free system. The
reason the Mac will fail is simply because it no longer offers much of an
advantage and it can't compete with the Intel platform. The longer term
health of the Mac is worse than that of the GS.
Philip McDunnough
phi...@utstat.toronto.edu
Rich Payne
>>
>>You don't think that it's possible that Apple //gs wares did not sell
>>because they were incredibly sluggish, the OS was an 8-bit OS with extensions
>>till long after the market had died, the computer came without enough memory
>>to run any reasonable programs till long after the market had died, Apple
>>fixed the //gs by breaking the entire software base with the ROM 3, etc...
>
> There isn't one single reason why the GS market isn't as vigorous as
>the IBM/Mac/Amiga markets.
Not according to those who claim that piracy is -the- reason for the
decline of the //. But lets not forget that in todays market the //gs
is still a model T in a ferrari world. (It's slow, OK?)
> As far as I can see, the two *major* reasons are
>inadequate support from Apple and software piracy. The reasons you cited
>above are all a direct result of Apple not doing enough to make the GS a
>viable platform in the 80's when it was still a pretty hot item. Apple
>COULD HAVE given us a 16-bit OS from the start, they COULD HAVE given us
>1 megabyte of RAM on the ROM 01, they COULD HAVE used a faster '816 from
>WDC, etc., etc. Of course, they did eventually get around to the first
>two, but by that time it was a case of too little too late.
But they did none of these things till long after most vendors had stopped
writing software for the //. Even Claris is hard pressed to remember
Appleworks, a program that they have no intention of doing anything with.
> The few employees left working on the Apple II at Apple area bunch of
>extremely talented and dedicated individuals, but they can only do so
>much on their own. If Apple doesn't give them the R&D personnel and
>budget, we won't see new models of the Apple II. Apple certainly isn't
>going to promote the Apple II any longer. What good will the SuperDrive,
>the SWIM disk controller, System 6.0.x and the EtherTalk card do if no one
>knows about it?
No complaints about the 0.1% (or less) dedicated Apple // enthusiasts still
working at Macintosh Inc. And I have been placing the blame on Apple all
along..
>>And piracy has killed the MAC markets and the PC markets as well, right?
>>It is no different there.
>
> You're comparing the two largest PC markets to the Apple II. There
>seems to be a point where a market becomes "self-sufficient". There are
>so many IBM/Mac users than 90% of them can pirate software while the
>software companies still make enough money off the remaining 10% who pay
>for the software. The Amiga, OTOH, may not have reached this level. If
>Commodore suddenly decides to cancel (or reduce) support for the entire
>Amiga line, it too will drop out of sight within five years. Piracy is
>also rampant in the Amiga world. If software vendors suddenly realize
>Commodore will no longer support it, they too will eventually switch their
>focus to other markets.
The Apple // -was- at that point. This point is no more stable than the
support from the manufacturer. The Amiga is doing poorly (in America),
despite being a fine machine. But Commadore is supporting it only slightly
better than Apple supports the //.
>>If IBM handled the PC like Apple handled the //, MAC would rule today.
>
> At least we all seem to agree on something.
>--
>Brian T. Tao =*8-) | ::::::::> tcom...@chasm.scar.utoronto.ca <::::::::
>Dept. of Exobiology | :::::> generic!terranet!ta...@zoo.toronto.edu <:::::
>University of Toronto | "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't."
Rich
Rich Payne
>>
>> And very few software houses re-wrote their progarms for the ROM3, or
>> wrote any more for the //gs after that. Apple broke the existing software
>> base. This (IMHO) is what killed software companies interest in the //gs,
>> and Apples MAC only approach did not help.
>
>What is this "rewrote their programs for the ROM3" rubbish?
>
>Any program written to follow Apple's guidelines for the IIgs should
>work equally well on the ROM 01 or ROM 03.
In theory. But the original apple tools were sllllooowwwwww. I doubt that
any games would have been playable written by the "guidelines" on the
original software. And much of the other stuff is still unacceptably
sluggish. And from what I recall, Apple did not follow their own guidelines
in the original code they made available as programming examples.
>Badly behaved programs that make assumptions about memory locations or
>ROM routines won't work, but they shouldn't have been written with
>those assumptions in the first place.
Better that than an unusable program that follows the guidelines.
>I have both a ROM 01 and ROM 03. So far I have found TWO programs
>that don't work properly on a ROM 03. In one case, a newer version
>fixed the problem. The other one isn't serious.
I have only a ROM1, but I recall hundreds of problems being posted when
the ROM3 came out. Most were fixed by patches or updates as I recall.
And many were not fixable at all. What programs do you have?
>Would someone mind telling me which programs supposedly don't work on
>a ROM 03 but do on a ROM 01?
>
>I had more trouble going from ROM 00 to ROM 01 (mostly with old games).
If you were a vendor -this- would be a major concern. DEC did it right,
they suppotred the exceptions that made the VT100 usefull, even though
they were not part of the original design. It was not broke, they did not
fix it. To some degree, Apple broke the //gs with the ROM changes.
>--
>David Empson
>
>Internet: David....@bbs.actrix.gen.nz EMPS...@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
>Snail mail: P.O. Box 27-103, Wellington, New Zealand
Rich
Tero Sand
>"Cycles of comp.sys.apple2"? Every 3 months: A big long boring piracy
>debate.. unsolvable, just like convincing a priest that there is no god is.
God, no, let's not get into _that_...
--
-Tero Sand
EMail: cus...@cc.helsinki.fi Snail mail: Auroran Sairaala os. 6-1
(if that doesn't work, try Nordenskioldinkatu 20
cus...@kruuna.helsinki.fi) 00250 Helsinki 25, Finland
Philip McDunnough
[ ]
>
>Not according to those who claim that piracy is -the- reason for the
>decline of the //. But lets not forget that in todays market the //gs
>is still a model T in a ferrari world. (It's slow, OK?)
Put in a Zip for next to nothing and you have a very advanced computer with
an OS that ranks right up there. System 6.0 puts Windows3.1 to shame. The
access to NTSC is a big plus for the GS. On the other hand it does need computervideo upgrades.
[ ]
>
>The Apple // -was- at that point. This point is no more stable than the
>support from the manufacturer. The Amiga is doing poorly (in America),
>despite being a fine machine. But Commadore is supporting it only slightly
>better than Apple supports the //.
The US is only a small part of the computer market. The Amiga is doing rather
well in the world. The fact that it is not readily available to US users
may anger them, but the bottom line is that America made the "wise" choice
of standardizing on MS-DOS. As for Commodore, they are supporting the Amiga
just fine.
Philip McDunnough
phi...@utstat.toronto.edu
Rich Payne
>In article <v9rmj2d...@netcom.com> pay...@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>
>[ ]
>>
>>Not according to those who claim that piracy is -the- reason for the
>>decline of the //. But lets not forget that in todays market the //gs
>>is still a model T in a ferrari world. (It's slow, OK?)
>
>Put in a Zip for next to nothing and you have a very advanced computer with
>an OS that ranks right up there. System 6.0 puts Windows3.1 to shame. The
>access to NTSC is a big plus for the GS. On the other hand it does need computervideo upgrades.
in time when all gs' will have a zip. Vendors do not usually write software
which requires non-standard configurations. There are exceptions of course,
some DOS software requires a math co-processor, or audio cards.
My //gs runs fine with a 10/64 Zip, but it took the better part of a
year to get it working with my system. And all I have is a RAMFAST, a
memory card (4MB), and an Apple 5.25" drive card.
But while a zipped //gs does OK with a 320x200x16 screen, I suspect that
if higher resolutions were supported, it would still be sluggish.
>>The Apple // -was- at that point. This point is no more stable than the
>>support from the manufacturer. The Amiga is doing poorly (in America),
>>despite being a fine machine. But Commadore is supporting it only slightly
>>better than Apple supports the //.
>
>The US is only a small part of the computer market. The Amiga is doing rather
>well in the world. The fact that it is not readily available to US users
>may anger them, but the bottom line is that America made the "wise" choice
>of standardizing on MS-DOS. As for Commodore, they are supporting the Amiga
>just fine.
I am aware of this. And I am also aware of the good that this does the
local Amiga user. Damn little. I have just heard of the A600, I may just
visit HT and take a look at one.
Commadore could easily do better. But it has been clear fro quite some
time that Apple is doing exactly what they indend to do with regards to
the Apple2.
Gotta go...
>Philip McDunnough
>phi...@utstat.toronto.edu
Rich
Jeffrey T Berntsen
>In article <z!rma1-....@netcom.com> pay...@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>>
>> And very few software houses re-wrote their progarms for the ROM3, or
>> wrote any more for the //gs after that. Apple broke the existing software
>> base. This (IMHO) is what killed software companies interest in the //gs,
>> and Apples MAC only approach did not help.
>What is this "rewrote their programs for the ROM3" rubbish?
>Any program written to follow Apple's guidelines for the IIgs should
>work equally well on the ROM 01 or ROM 03.
>Badly behaved programs that make assumptions about memory locations or
>ROM routines won't work, but they shouldn't have been written with
>those assumptions in the first place.
>I have both a ROM 01 and ROM 03. So far I have found TWO programs
>that don't work properly on a ROM 03. In one case, a newer version
>fixed the problem. The other one isn't serious.
>Would someone mind telling me which programs supposedly don't work on
>a ROM 03 but do on a ROM 01?
I'll tell you mine if you tell me yours....
Honestly, though, I can add a couple to your list if they aren't already there:
Broderbund's Fantavision.
Apple's original IIgs demo (the one that opens with the nice sax music).
Jeff Berntsen
je...@world.std.com
David....@bbs.actrix.gen.nz
>
> I'll tell you mine if you tell me yours....
>
> Honestly, though, I can add a couple to your list if they aren't already there:
>
> Broderbund's Fantavision.
Never seen it (though I've _heard_ of it).
> Apple's original IIgs demo (the one that opens with the nice sax music).
Well, there's a prime example of a program not written to follow any
guidelines. Not to mention misleading! :-)
How many IIgs's AS ORIGINALLY BOUGHT could run the original demo? :-)
Mine certainly couldn't.
The two programs I'm thinking of are the "Animated Watch" INIT
(original version caused ROM 03 with System 6 to behave _very_ badly),
and Dave Lyons' "Screen Dimmer" CDA, released through Roger Wagner
Publishing. The only problem with Screen Dimmer is that it doesn't
recognise mouse movements on a ROM 03, so if you don't touch the
keyboard for ten minutes, the screen gets blanked!
Dan Sorenson
>> And piracy has killed the MAC markets and the PC markets as well, right?
>> It is no different there.
>I disagree. Look at the relative size of markets. I've heard it said that
>there are something to the tune of 50 million PCs around today. I do not
>know the number of Macs around, only that there are considerably more Macs
>than IIGSes. Additionally, on the PC and Mac markets, it generally isn't
>considered highway robbery to sell a piece of software for $500 or more.
You are confusing the selling at high cost to those who can afford
it and the selling at lower cost to those who would pirate it. Let's look
at the lab I work for. We bought 13 workstations (286 and 386 machines),
Novell Netware 3.11, and FoxPro/LAN. The total cost is well over $30K,
but it has paid for itself in time saved versus employee salaries. I
challenge you to save $30,000 for the home or school user, which is the
IIgs market to date. Similarly, the piracy of an IBM game will be along
the lines of piracy of Appleworks since these are home software, and
hence the big spenders won't touch it. Everything on the net I adminster
is bought with a network license, and it costs. On my IIgs, this is
not always the case. There is some shareware I haven't paid the fee on
yet (assumming I wish to keep it around -- I don't check everything on
a daily basis), and there is at least one software program ten of us went
in on because we felt the price was too high. Everything else was bought
originally. I'd say I cost somebody $500 in fees so far. On my network,
a single $20 game costs somebody ($13 x $500 = ) $6,500 by this logic.
It isn't so. I merely point this out, but I don't condone piracy as I
have software released under copyright.
>Let's hope that for the community, Burger Bill is able to pull this off
>without tremendous complications from Apple.
I know squat about Avatar, but I wish him luck. If you can do
it, you deserve to sell it. That's my motto.
>So, let's say IBM completely lost all interest in developing for the PC
>four or five years after its release. There would already be enough
>compatibles to support the PC market.
One needs only look at the Laser 128 market to show that the
market volume is more important than vendor ambitions, or even the
relative value of the product. Inertia is at work in the software
industry, and I'm much better off writing for the PC/AT than I am for
the Apple IIe or IIgs. It's economics. The IIgs may be a better
machine (and I think so, and I own one), but the IBM clone is where
the money is. No wonder I code for the clone.
<Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 |"There'll be angels on Ariels in leather>
<z1...@exnet.iastate.edu | and chrome, Ridin' down from heaven >
<vik...@iastate.edu | just to carry me home." -- R. Thompson >
< ISU thinks I need more education, which they provide for a fee. >
Bill Logsdon
If you install the Rom3 mouse fix init (available free) then the screen
dimmer will work properly....
Matthew Curtin
> In article <bazyar.712470809@teal> baz...@teal.csn.org (Jawaid Bazyar) writes
> > DreamGrafix and Pick'n'Pile are
> >being sold, illegally, in France. By ex-members of the FTA and Toolbox.
> >These people are almost universally worshipped here in the states, but
> >they're hardcore pirates and just as responsible as Apple (along with all
> >the other pirates) for developers leaving the II. When new software is
> >distributed across the nation in two days, thousands upon thousands of
> >illegal copies, then there's a problem that needs to be addressed.
>
> And piracy has killed the MAC markets and the PC markets as well, right?
> It is no different there.
I disagree. Look at the relative size of markets. I've heard it said that
there are something to the tune of 50 million PCs around today. I do not
know the number of Macs around, only that there are considerably more Macs
than IIGSes. Additionally, on the PC and Mac markets, it generally isn't
considered highway robbery to sell a piece of software for $500 or more.
So, if 50% of all the software in use today is pirated, the Mac and PC
markets would still show a larger number of legitimate users.
Additionally, they would have a larger return because of the relative
pricing of thier product. When was the last time you saw a $500 word
processor for the GS?
> > Apple is at this point giving third party developers the opportunity
> >to take over the IIgs, in spirit if not in name or in new hardware.
>
> How so? Avatar is Burger Bill's idea, and it remains to be seen if
> he will get to dance with Apples Legal department. Let's wait and see.
Let's hope that for the community, Burger Bill is able to pull this off
without tremendous complications from Apple.
> >Let me give you an example. I went to a user's group meeting in
> >Champaign, Illinois. Someone there asked if they could make a photocopy
> >of the AppleWorks 3.0 manual, since theirs was "slightly warm". It's
> >this kind of nonchalance, this kind of "well, piracy is bad, but it's
> >okay _sometimes_" that upsets me. Piracy is _never_ okay.
>
> If IBM handled the PC like Apple handled the //, MAC would rule today.
> And evil done in the name of fighting piracy is still evil.
Again, I'm going to disagree. The PC was cloned over and over again. The
genuine IBM PCs are practically nonexistant. There are too many people
buying clones that are often more sophisticated than the genuine IBM
article. Look at Dell, Compaq, etc...
So, let's say IBM completely lost all interest in developing for the PC
four or five years after its release. There would already be enough
compatibles to support the PC market.
> >--
> > Jawaid Bazyar | Ask me about the GNO Multitasking Environmen
> > Procyon, Inc. | for the Apple IIgs!
> > baz...@cs.uiuc.edu | P.O Box 620334
> > --Apple II Forever!-- | Littleton, CO 80162-0334 (303) 933-4649
>
> Rich
>
> pay...@netcom.com
>
>
Bill Logsdon
The average Pirate (or collector) has so much software he/she simply cannot
use what they have anyway....
Brian Tao
>In article <6...@generic.UUCP> ta...@generic.UUCP (Brian Tao) writes:
>>
>>Of course, they did eventually get around to the first
>>two, but by that time it was a case of too little too late.
>
>But they did none of these things till long after most vendors had stopped
>writing software for the //.
I know, that's what I mean by "too little too late". If the GS had
come with an 8-MHz CPU and 1 meg of RAM on board, things would probably be
very different now (most likely for the better).
>No complaints about the 0.1% (or less) dedicated Apple // enthusiasts still
>working at Macintosh Inc. And I have been placing the blame on Apple all
>along..
Well, I really don't see any point in continuing this discussion any
further. If I were one of the Apple II enthusiasts working at Apple, I'd
be pretty disgusted at this whole thread.
Rich Payne
>pay...@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>
>> In article <bazyar.712470809@teal> baz...@teal.csn.org (Jawaid Bazyar) writes
>> > DreamGrafix and Pick'n'Pile are
>> >being sold, illegally, in France. By ex-members of the FTA and Toolbox.
>> >These people are almost universally worshipped here in the states, but
>> >they're hardcore pirates and just as responsible as Apple (along with all
>> >the other pirates) for developers leaving the II. When new software is
>> >distributed across the nation in two days, thousands upon thousands of
>> >illegal copies, then there's a problem that needs to be addressed.
>>
>> And piracy has killed the MAC markets and the PC markets as well, right?
>> It is no different there.
>
>I disagree. Look at the relative size of markets. I've heard it said that
>there are something to the tune of 50 million PCs around today. I do not
>know the number of Macs around, only that there are considerably more Macs
>than IIGSes. Additionally, on the PC and Mac markets, it generally isn't
>considered highway robbery to sell a piece of software for $500 or more.
>So, if 50% of all the software in use today is pirated, the Mac and PC
>markets would still show a larger number of legitimate users.
>Additionally, they would have a larger return because of the relative
>pricing of thier product. When was the last time you saw a $500 word
>processor for the GS?
Actually, the issue was piracy. My statement was not about the
software market, but about piracy for those platforms. Feel free to
disagree, but it makes more sense when we both talk about the same
thing. And I knew better than to get involved in this <sigh>.
>> > Apple is at this point giving third party developers the opportunity
>> >to take over the IIgs, in spirit if not in name or in new hardware.
>>
>> How so? Avatar is Burger Bill's idea, and it remains to be seen if
>> he will get to dance with Apples Legal department. Let's wait and see.
>
>Let's hope that for the community, Burger Bill is able to pull this off
>without tremendous complications from Apple.
I hope so too. But Apple has been known to see things differently
from everyone else. Like when they sued MicroSoft for the supposed
"lost profits" caused by Windows. I recall that it was a multi-billion
dollar lawsuit for the crime of competing, or so it looked to me.
>> >Let me give you an example. I went to a user's group meeting in
>> >Champaign, Illinois. Someone there asked if they could make a photocopy
>> >of the AppleWorks 3.0 manual, since theirs was "slightly warm". It's
>> >this kind of nonchalance, this kind of "well, piracy is bad, but it's
>> >okay _sometimes_" that upsets me. Piracy is _never_ okay.
>>
>> If IBM handled the PC like Apple handled the //, MAC would rule today.
>> And evil done in the name of fighting piracy is still evil.
>
>Again, I'm going to disagree. The PC was cloned over and over again. The
>genuine IBM PCs are practically nonexistant. There are too many people
>buying clones that are often more sophisticated than the genuine IBM
>article. Look at Dell, Compaq, etc...
Yeah good point. Badly thought out example. Turn it around and it makes
more sense... "If IBM handled the PC like Apple handled the Apple//,
their would not be 50 million PC's out there now".
>So, let's say IBM completely lost all interest in developing for the PC
>four or five years after its release. There would already be enough
>compatibles to support the PC market.
Agreed.
>> >--
>> > Jawaid Bazyar | Ask me about the GNO Multitasking Environmen
>>
>> Rich
>> pay...@netcom.com
> ___________________________________________________________________________
>| C. Matthew Curtin ! "But I am the enlightened one, they are |
Rich again
Rich Payne
>pay...@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes...
>>In article <6...@generic.UUCP> ta...@generic.UUCP (Brian Tao) writes:
>>>
>>>Of course, they did eventually get around to the first
>>>two, but by that time it was a case of too little too late.
>>
>>But they did none of these things till long after most vendors had stopped
>>writing software for the //.
>
> I know, that's what I mean by "too little too late". If the GS had
>come with an 8-MHz CPU and 1 meg of RAM on board, things would probably be
>very different now (most likely for the better).
Even 512K would have helped.
>>No complaints about the 0.1% (or less) dedicated Apple // enthusiasts still
>>working at Macintosh Inc. And I have been placing the blame on Apple all
>>along..
>
> Well, I really don't see any point in continuing this discussion any
>further. If I were one of the Apple II enthusiasts working at Apple, I'd
>be pretty disgusted at this whole thread.
Perhaps you would. Although I am not sure why. I suspect that they do not
make marketing decisions. Upper management kinda likes to do that. They
have not shown any particular interest for the // since "Apple // forever".
Things are not all that bad, the new GS/OS is great. Except for the
graphics, and lack fo standard FPU support, the //gs is still more
usable than many (most) clones. My Unix system at work beats them all
(IMHO). But then, I do not yet have GNO. If I ever get tuition paid
off, this will probably be my first purchase.
Come to think of it, "blame" is a poor word choice. Make that responsibility
for the present situation, and you can make your own judgement as to what
that is.
>--
>Brian T. Tao =*8-) | ::::::::> tcom...@chasm.scar.utoronto.ca <::::::::
Rich
Bill Ung
|In article <15cv1a...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> unk...@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (tuu) writes:
||
||In article <avnmy+_...@netcom.com> pay...@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
||}It's simple, but absolutely wrong as stated. I use some freeware that
||}I have not paid for, and I have committed no crime. I have much software
||}that I have written for my own use, who the hell are you to tell me
||}that it is a crime to use it?
||
|| You know, you are really off the deep end.. You're being
||semantically picky, when you should know very well what Jawaid was talking
||about.
||
|| Of COURSE freeware and software that you've written are legal to
||use. Don't be a bonehead.
|
|I may be a bonehead, but I can read. You omitted the text where Jawaid
|clearly said that if you did not -pay- for the software you are committing
|a crime. I said that it's absolutely wrong as stated, and it is.
No, it is not. FREEWARE is paid for. The price tag is $0.00, paid in
full upon receipt. Software you have written you've paid for in terms
of time and effort. You can set the price tag at $0.00 or $1000.00, in
either case, I doubt you'll have a problem paying yourself whatever
price tag you choose ... and if you do, well, that probably belongs in
some psychotherapy newsgroup. So therefore, in both cases, the software
IS paid for. Just for the record, I'll have to agree that being a
bonehead is stupid. Argue intelligently and don't waste bandwidth on
things like picky semantics.
|I'd
|rather be a bonehead that have a reading problem and be quoting impaired.
Perhaps he was saving bandwidth? I'll agree, he probably should have
quoted it though.
|And BTW, I find your bonehead assertion rather a personal attack.
But not undeserved?
|Add in also that many have such strong personal feelings that at the
|first hint of piracy, they froth at the eyes and cannot read straight.
|And that others must just jump in to make unwarrented personal attacks.
You yourself agreed that you are a bonehead. That doesn't make it
unwarranted (note spelling), in fact, just the opposite.
|Rich
|
|pay...@netcom.com
Bill Ung
u...@filenet.com
Rich Payne
You can post the above twaddle and complain that I am being picky about
semantics in the same sentence? You pay nothing for freeware, if you
pay, it ain't free. And your hypocrisy is showing.
>|I'd
>|rather be a bonehead that have a reading problem and be quoting impaired.
>
>Perhaps he was saving bandwidth? I'll agree, he probably should have
>quoted it though.
>
>|And BTW, I find your bonehead assertion rather a personal attack.
>
>But not undeserved?
Completely, absolutely, 100% undeserved. Next...
>|Add in also that many have such strong personal feelings that at the
>|first hint of piracy, they froth at the eyes and cannot read straight.
>|And that others must just jump in to make unwarrented personal attacks.
>
>You yourself agreed that you are a bonehead. That doesn't make it
>unwarranted (note spelling), in fact, just the opposite.
You may be picky, but you are again wrong. I never admitted that I was
a bonehead, go back and reread. And is not there a rule that the first
person to complain about spelling errors automatically loses the debate?
>|Rich
>|pay...@netcom.com
>
>Bill Ung
> u...@filenet.com
Rich again
Amrit Chauhan
:In article <19...@fritz.filenet.com> u...@fritz.filenet.com (Bill Ung) writes:
:>In article <!frms1j...@netcom.com> pay...@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
:>||In article <avnmy+_...@netcom.com> pay...@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
: >But not undeserved?
[rest discounted]
: >|Rich
: >|pay...@netcom.com
: >Bill Ung
: > u...@filenet.com
: Rich again
Will the two of you take this personal attack war to e-mail? This totally
ridiculous. Rich, you're better than this. I think this has turned into who
can outwhit the other for personal attacks......STOP.
Thank you.
Amrit
--
< > --------------------------------------------- < >
< > Amrit Chauhan | cha...@ils.nwu.edu < >
< > GENIE: A.Chauhan | PL: amritc@pro-hindugods < >
< > --------------------------------------------- < >
Bill Ung
|In article <19...@fritz.filenet.com> u...@fritz.filenet.com (Bill Ung) writes:
||In article <!frms1j...@netcom.com> pay...@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
|||In article <15cv1a...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> unk...@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (tuu) writes:
||||
||||In article <avnmy+_...@netcom.com> pay...@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
||||}It's simple, but absolutely wrong as stated. I use some freeware that
||||}I have not paid for, and I have committed no crime. I have much software
||||}that I have written for my own use, who the hell are you to tell me
||||}that it is a crime to use it?
||||
|||| You know, you are really off the deep end.. You're being
||||semantically picky, when you should know very well what Jawaid was talking
||||about.
||||
|||| Of COURSE freeware and software that you've written are legal to
||||use. Don't be a bonehead.
|||
|||I may be a bonehead, but I can read. You omitted the text where Jawaid
|||clearly said that if you did not -pay- for the software you are committing
|||a crime. I said that it's absolutely wrong as stated, and it is.
||
||No, it is not. FREEWARE is paid for. The price tag is $0.00, paid in
||full upon receipt. Software you have written you've paid for in terms
||of time and effort. You can set the price tag at $0.00 or $1000.00, in
||either case, I doubt you'll have a problem paying yourself whatever
||price tag you choose ... and if you do, well, that probably belongs in
||some psychotherapy newsgroup. So therefore, in both cases, the software
||IS paid for. Just for the record, I'll have to agree that being a
||bonehead is stupid. Argue intelligently and don't waste bandwidth on
||things like picky semantics.
|
|You can post the above twaddle and complain that I am being picky about
|semantics in the same sentence? You pay nothing for freeware, if you
|pay, it ain't free. And your hypocrisy is showing.
All I'm saying is if something is free, then I consider it automatically
paid for. You did pay the full 0 dollars and 00 cents upon receipt, did
you not? Straight and simple logic: If $paid (0.00) == $owed (0.00)
then paid_for = TRUE. Heck, you even paid for the sales tax (also $0.00).
Also note that nobody would be quite this picky about semantics if you
weren't in the first place. Since you started in on it, we all have the
right to a rebuttal.
|||I'd
|||rather be a bonehead that have a reading problem and be quoting impaired.
||
||Perhaps he was saving bandwidth? I'll agree, he probably should have
||quoted it though.
||
|||And BTW, I find your bonehead assertion rather a personal attack.
||
||But not undeserved?
|
|Completely, absolutely, 100% undeserved. Next...
Difference of opinion. Next...
|||Add in also that many have such strong personal feelings that at the
|||first hint of piracy, they froth at the eyes and cannot read straight.
|||And that others must just jump in to make unwarrented personal attacks.
||
||You yourself agreed that you are a bonehead. That doesn't make it
||unwarranted (note spelling), in fact, just the opposite.
|
|You may be picky, but you are again wrong. I never admitted that I was
|a bonehead, go back and reread.
A quote from you (also see above): "I may be a bonehead, but I can read"
Sounds like an admission to me.
|And is not there a rule that the first
|person to complain about spelling errors automatically loses the debate?
Hah! You've gotta be kidding. If you can't win your debates by your
arguements, why bother having them? That's about the stupidest rules
I've ever heard of. "Oh, but I won because he complained about my
spelling!!!" ... yeah, right.
|||Rich
|||pay...@netcom.com
||
||Bill Ung
|| u...@filenet.com
|
|Rich again
Bill Ung
u...@filenet.com
Rich Payne
You cannot "pay" $0.00, you are mixing mutually exclusive concepts.
And you are both being pendantic, and complaining about it, ergo, you
are a hypocrite. Do one or the other, but not both. If it's a problem, then
you are just as wrong in doing it. If -you- are right in being pendantic,
then you have no basis for claiming that I am wrong.
>|||I'd
>|||rather be a bonehead that have a reading problem and be quoting impaired.
>||
>||Perhaps he was saving bandwidth? I'll agree, he probably should have
>||quoted it though.
>||
>|||And BTW, I find your bonehead assertion rather a personal attack.
>||
>||But not undeserved?
>|
>|Completely, absolutely, 100% undeserved. Next...
>
>Difference of opinion. Next...
>
>|||Add in also that many have such strong personal feelings that at the
>|||first hint of piracy, they froth at the eyes and cannot read straight.
>|||And that others must just jump in to make unwarrented personal attacks.
>||
>||You yourself agreed that you are a bonehead. That doesn't make it
>||unwarranted (note spelling), in fact, just the opposite.
>|
>|You may be picky, but you are again wrong. I never admitted that I was
>|a bonehead, go back and reread.
>
>A quote from you (also see above): "I may be a bonehead, but I can read"
>
>Sounds like an admission to me.
No, an admission would have used the word "am" instead of "may be". You
may be pendantic, but you ain't too sharp.
Since you do not understand it, let me spell it out for. Read it slowly!
I h a v e o n l y a d m i t t e d t o t h e p o s s i b i l i t y
t h a t I - m a y - b e a b o n e h e a d.
You, on the other hand are giving a good demonstration of how a bonehead
would actually post. I see no reason to belabor the obvious here.
>|And is not there a rule that the first
>|person to complain about spelling errors automatically loses the debate?
>
>Hah! You've gotta be kidding. If you can't win your debates by your
>arguements, why bother having them? That's about the stupidest rules
>I've ever heard of. "Oh, but I won because he complained about my
>spelling!!!" ... yeah, right.
At least it dosen't take me 3-4 weeks (whatever) to respond.
>|||Rich
>||Bill Ung
>|Rich again
>Bill Ung
> u...@filenet.com
Rich again
Ian Schmidt
who read c.s.a2 for useful info from the coolest DTS dept. at Apple.
So take it to e-mail if you wish to continue...sheesh!
--
_IanSchmidt(oINet+...@iastate.edu,oBITNET+twbv4@isuvax,$C000)
Apple IIgs: It's not just a computer, its a state of mind
"I will choose a path that's clear: I will choose free will" - Neil Peart
Michael Foegelle
>In article <19...@fritz.filenet.com> u...@fritz.filenet.com (Bill Ung) writes:
>>In article <m#4m!3l.p...@netcom.com> pay...@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>>|In article <19...@fritz.filenet.com> u...@fritz.filenet.com (Bill Ung) writes:
>>||In article <!frms1j...@netcom.com> pay...@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>>|||In article <15cv1a...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> unk...@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (tuu) writes:
>>||||
>>||||In article <avnmy+_...@netcom.com> pay...@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
Lord, I thought we were through with this! I think I probably speak for most
everyone on the net that this topic is more than a little out of date, and any
more flaming you two have to do to each other should be done in private E-mail
and not be wasting money and space on the net. (You'll notice the last 4 posts
have been just between Bill and Rich.) So take it to the E-mail or give it a
rest!
Michael Foegelle
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Foegelle | | foeg...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
____________ | You want it | foeg...@utaphy.ph.utexas.edu
| | GEnie: M.FOEGELLE2
University of | WHEN? | Wunderland BBS (512) 472-0544
Texas at Austin | | 14.4kbaud, v.32/bis: Sysop
Matthew Curtin
[ various flames about piracy deleted ... ]
> everyone on the net that this topic is more than a little out of date, and an
> more flaming you two have to do to each other should be done in private E-mai
> and not be wasting money and space on the net. (You'll notice the last 4 pos
> have been just between Bill and Rich.) So take it to the E-mail or give it a
> rest!
While I agree that personal flames should be taken to email or alt.flame,
I am going to take issue with your statment about this being a dead topic.
With the current state of the Apple II software market, it should be
obvious that software publishers don't stand to make the zillions of
dollars on other (inferior ;) ) platforms. SO, this issue is of special
interest to the Apple II community. Apple II software publishers are going
to be dependant upon each sale they make in order to cover their costs and
make a worthwhile return. If we steal their products, they will not be
able to continue to produce great software. They simply won't be able to
afford it.
If you're uninterested in continuing to read the piracy debate, then take
a clue from the header, figure it's something you're not interested in,
and move on.
__________________________________________________________________________
| C. Matthew Curtin ! "But I am the enlightened one, they are |
| P.O. Box 27081 ! but mere sheep, following each other in |
| Columbus, OH 43227-0081 ! the name of compatibility." -B. Heineman |
| cmcu...@bluemoon.uucp ! Apple II Forever! |
|_cmc...@bluemoon.rn.com______!_____________Support__Shareware!__________|
Michael Foegelle
>
>While I agree that personal flames should be taken to email or alt.flame,
>I am going to take issue with your statment about this being a dead topic.
>With the current state of the Apple II software market, it should be
>obvious that software publishers don't stand to make the zillions of
>dollars on other (inferior ;) ) platforms. SO, this issue is of special
>interest to the Apple II community. Apple II software publishers are going
>to be dependant upon each sale they make in order to cover their costs and
>make a worthwhile return. If we steal their products, they will not be
>able to continue to produce great software. They simply won't be able to
>afford it.
Well, I'm a programmer myself (at least part of the time) and I understand
the concern about piracy (don't have to worry about that on my private
contracts) and it is something that affects me too even though all of
my Apple releases have either been ShareWare or public domain.
My main point in that post was that the sequence of arguments about the
lost money policy was getting extremely old and was rather pointless. It
is a fact that its nonsense to think that every pirate copy means that the
author lost the market value of that copy, since not everyone with a pirate
copy would buy the original, but it is also nonsense to say that if the copy
weren't pirated, the author (or seller at least, since not all programmers
reap the rewards of the marketting company) would not make more money. At
any rate, the point was that we all KNOW this, and the bickering was getting
boring. (I'm kind of ashamed of myself for posting this now because it's
beginning to look just like what I was complaing about, but since I've
written it...)
I AM very concerned about developing our rights here in this electronic
domain to insure that everyone receives the fair shake they deserve. This
extends beyond just the topic of software piracy, of course. (I happen to
know Steve Jackson, though not more than through mere aquaintance, but the
thought of what happened to him and his company happening to me or anyone
else is of major concern. If you don't know the story, that's material
for another subject heading, and possibly a different base.) Of possible
interest to people here is the fact that over the summer, a consortium (sp)
of software companies put together a task force here in the Austin area
which has been given FEDERAL MARTIAL authority! They can walk into anyplace
and check your computers for illegal copies of software and take whatever
legal action they wish! The University of Texas publicly agreed to cooperate
with any investigations and you should have SEEN the flurry of people running
around saying "Get anything we didn't buy off the computer!" The idea is
especially annoying since we do research under private contracts and often
have data and programs we've written which are concidered confidential
property of the company who supplied the contract. (considered, but anyway).
I do welcome comments on the above, but let's at least change the subject
name! =)
>
>If you're uninterested in continuing to read the piracy debate, then take
>a clue from the header, figure it's something you're not interested in,
>and move on.
>
> __________________________________________________________________________
>| C. Matthew Curtin ! "But I am the enlightened one, they are |
>| P.O. Box 27081 ! but mere sheep, following each other in |
>| Columbus, OH 43227-0081 ! the name of compatibility." -B. Heineman |
>| cmcu...@bluemoon.uucp ! Apple II Forever! |
>|_cmc...@bluemoon.rn.com______!_____________Support__Shareware!__________|
Michael Foegelle