APPLE COLOR PLUS Display with Laser 128 (Apple IIc Clone) : Is it possible ?
Jose Carlos Lord Apple
I have a Laser 128 (Apple IIc Clone) that has a RGB port (50~60 Hz
ajustable). My question is: Can I use an Apple Color Plus Display with
it ? Is this display a RGB display ? Must I have to do any adapter or
special cable to use it ?
Thanks and sorry by my bad english.
José Carlos (Brazil)
Jeff Thomas
> Hi,
> I have a Laser 128 (Apple IIc Clone) that has a RGB port (50~60 Hz
> ajustable). My question is: Can I use an Apple Color Plus Display with
> it ? Is this display a RGB display ? Must I have to do any adapter or
> special cable to use it ?
If there is no mention on the back of the word "RGB" monitor, then its
likely to be a colour composite monitor, needing a single cable similar to
connecting a monochrome monitor on any Apple II. As far as, I know all
Apple RGB Colour monitors for Apple II have the word "RGB" in them.
Also, you'll need to find out, if the RGB port on Laser 128 or 128EX(?)
requires connection of Digital or Analog (also, known as TTL) RGB monitor,
hooking up the wrong one might damage it. That information is probably in
the user manual or FAQs somewhere.
The RGB port will require a different cable that ought to come with the
monitor or computer.
I hope that helps!
Cheers,
Jeff.
Roger Johnstone
Sorry José, the Apple Color Plus Display is a Macintosh monitor. It runs
at a horizontal line frequency of 35 kilohertz. The Laser 128, like the
IIgs, needs a monitor which can sync to 15kHz, the same frequency that
TVs run at.
--
Roger Johnstone, Invercargill, New Zealand
Apple II - FutureCop:LAPD - iMac Game Wizard
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~rojaws/
________________________________________________________________________
"Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons"
Popular Mechanics, forecasting the relentless march of science, 1949
Jose Carlos Lord Apple
> Sorry José, the Apple Color Plus Display is a Macintosh monitor. It runs
> at a horizontal line frequency of 35 kilohertz. The Laser 128, like the
> IIgs, needs a monitor which can sync to 15kHz, the same frequency that
> TVs run at.
>
> --
> Roger Johnstone, Invercargill, New Zealand
>
I right ? Is It possible to convert the CGA signal to composite signal
? I verified that the DB9 plug on CGA monitor only needs:
- Ground
- HSync
- VSync
Thanks for your help and sorry by my "terrible" English !!
José Carlos
Brazil
Michael J. Mahon
>> Sorry José, the Apple Color Plus Display is a Macintosh monitor. It runs
>> at a horizontal line frequency of 35 kilohertz. The Laser 128, like the
>> IIgs, needs a monitor which can sync to 15kHz, the same frequency that
>> TVs run at.
>>
>> --
>> Roger Johnstone, Invercargill, New Zealand
>>
>Humm, 15 kHz, that's means I can't use a CGA Mono Monitor with it. Am
>I right ?
No, CGA is 15.7 kHz horizontal sweep. The issue is that CGA is
TTL, not analog, RGB. Without an adapter, you won't be able
to couple the video, even though the monitor could sync to the
correct sweep rates.
> Is It possible to convert the CGA signal to composite signal
>? I verified that the DB9 plug on CGA monitor only needs:
>- Ground
>- HSync
>- VSync
I think you mean could you convert your Laser's composite
video to TTL RGB for the CGA monitor. This is not an easy
conversion, since it would be necessary to demodulate the
composite chroma signal (on a 3.58MHz subcarrier) and then
matrix it to obtain RGB, then threshold it to get discrete
TTL RGB colors that would be a poor approximation to the
analog composite colors that you desire.
Your best approach for displaying NTSC composite color
is an NTSC TV monitor.
>Thanks for your help and sorry by my "terrible" English !!
It's quite understandable. ;-)
-michael
Check out 8-bit Apple sound that will amaze you on my
Home page: http://members.aol.com/MJMahon/
Joel
15 pin video port on a //c.
Unlike the //c, it contains all the signals (R,G,B,I,VSync,HSync) you need
to drive a CGA color monitor.
Laser sold simple 15 to 9 pin adapters to do just that.
I have 2 or 3 in my basement.
That and the built-in parallel printer port were real improvements over
Apple's design.
Simon Williams
You may find this interesting: Ijust picked up a Laser branded monitor
adaptor cable, whose (very sparse) documentation says it will work on
not only a Laser 128, but also a //c or //e... it is intended for use
with an IBM RGB monitor. Since the //e obviously has no 15-pin video
out and the signal from the Laser and //c are different then they have
apparently left out some crucial data from the instructions.
SW
A.P.P.L.E. Webmaster
I would love to see one of those adapters as the one I have is 15 pin
to composite RCA type output, not 9 pin. That would definately go a
long ways.
Jose Carlos Lord Apple
I have a Mono CGA monitor (Samsung). It has a DB9 connector only with
the pins:
- Ground
- Intensity (I)
- VSync
- HSync
- Reserved (?)
I did a DB15 to DB9 cable (I have the Laser DB15 pin documentation)
with this signals. But it doesn't work !!!! I read that the CGA isn't
an analog RGB, so, it doesn't work. Do you know how can I do this work
?
Thanks,
Jose Carlos
Brazil
I,VSync,HSync
Jose Carlos Lord Apple
> No, CGA is 15.7 kHz horizontal sweep. The issue is that CGA is
> TTL, not analog, RGB. Without an adapter, you won't be able
> to couple the video, even though the monitor could sync to the
> correct sweep rates.
>
circuit diagram about this ? Can I make this one by myself ?
Thanks.
Jose Carlos
Joel
By Joel Buckley 11/7/2002
There have been a number of questions related to RGB video on the //e, //c,
and Laser 128.
I could only find limited info on these topics in the FAQs, so I thought I'd
add what I have in my notes and references. I offer no guarantee that this
is 100% accurate.
In the Apple // series of computers, there have been 15 pin video ports on
the Apple ///, Apple //e (option), Apple //c, Apple //c+, Laser 128, and
Apple IIgs. Despite all using a 15 pin connector, most of these ports are
different and incompatible!
RGB may provide crisper, higher resolution displays than televisions or
composite video displays.
But RGB is not one standard. RGB monitors may use different frequencies,
digital #s of colors (8 color, 16 color, or analog) and different sync
encoding (separate vertical and horizontal sync, or composite sync, or sync
mixed with the video signal).
Early IBM computer used a type of RGB display which they called CGA. It is
16 color, RGBI (Red,Blue,Green,Intensity) and runs at 60Hz vertical 15KHz
horizontal scan rate. These frequencies are the same as a regular TV set.
The Apple II family uses these same frequencies. Later, higher resolution
monitors, like EGA and VGA, use higher scan rates and generally are not
compatible with the Apple II series.
I think the Apple /// was one of the earliest versions of RGB for the Apple
II family.
Here's the pinout:
Apple ///
1. Shield Ground
2. Green
3. Comp Sync
4. N/C
5. Red
6. Ground
7. -5v
8. +12v
9. Blue
10. Intensity
11. NTSC B+W
12. NTSC Color
13. Ground
14. -12v
15. +5v
(I don't have an Apple /// and have not verified this myself.)
The Apple //e had an RGB option which was very similar to the Apple ///. I
actually have 2 of these boards (though I haven't hooked them up to an RGB
monitor.) I believe it was called the AppleColor 64k 80 column card. The
identical card was sold by a company called Video 7 (maybe they developed
it?) They were not that much different from the early big 64k/80 column
cards. They had a 16pin ribbon cable connector on top (which connected to a
DB-15 connector). The matching monitor was called AppleColor 100,
The pinout is basically a subset of the Apple ///.
Apple //e
1. Shield Ground
2. Green
3. Comp Sync
4. N/C
5. Red
6. Ground
7. N/C
8. N/C
9. Blue
10. Intensity
11. N/C
12. N/C
13. Ground
14. N/C
15. +5v
I believe some of the memory expansion cards for the //e made by Applied
Engineering also had an RGB option. I don't have any information on them.
The Apple //c and //c+
They also had a video expansion port which did not directly do RGB. The port
could drive an LCD display (very rare). It also carries composite video and
sound, so some adapter cables plug into it for those-but these are not RGB.
There was an adapter made by Telemax called the Peacock model CM2C that
converted these signals into RGB. I do not have one of these.
Apple //c, //c+
1. TEXT
2. F14M
3. COMP SYNC
4. SEGB
5. SOUND
6. LDPS
7. WNDW
8. +12v
9. PRAS
10. GR
11. CGSEROUT
12. NTSC (Composite video)
13. Ground
14. VIDD7
15. CREF
Laser 128
This was an Apple //c clone. But its video port differs from the //c. While
I believe it may work with the //c LCD display and with adapter cables that
split out composite video and sound, it also has the signals needed for an
RGB display without any extra circuitry.
Laser 128
1. INTEN
2. F14M
3. RED
4. BLUE
5. SOUND
6. LDPS
7. DSPEN
8. +12v
9. HSYNC
10. /CSYNC
11. CGSEROUT
12. NTSC (Composite video)
13. Ground
14. VSYNC
15. GREEN
Then there was the Apple IIgs. While it uses the same frequency monitor as
the others, it uses analog video signals with superimposed sync signals.
Besides its own monitor, it was compatible with a few other brands.
Apple IIgs
1 Signal ground (Red)
2 Analog RED with sync
3 Composite sync
4 No connection
5 Analog GREEN with sync
6 Signal ground (Green)
7 -5 volts DC
8 +12 volts DC
9 Analog BLUE with sync
10 No connection
11 Sound 1V peak-to-peak
12 NTSC/composite color video out
13 Signal ground (Blue)
14 No connection
15 No connection
In general Color monitors designed for the Macintosh have higher frequencies
and aren't compatible with Apple II computers. There are exceptions to this.
I believe there was a VGA board for the IIgs called Second Sight. Then there
are devices called scan doublers, which may let Apple II video be displayed
on some monitors which operate at twice the frequency as the Apple II.
IBM CGA RGB Monitors
I present this information because these monitors were once fairly common
and you may want to try to hook them up to your Apple. Sometimes the Apple
provides Composite Sync and the IBM wants separate Vertical and Horizontal.
You can build a circuit to split them apart. But first try running the
composite sync into both. Sometimes it will work. Trying to make one of
these work with a IIgs is probably more trouble than its worth, especially
with IIgs monitors from school surplus being a dime a dozen. Trying the
reverse, getting a Iigs monitor to work with a //e or Laser 128 is also
rather complicated. But wiring a CGA monitor to Apple ///, //e with RGB
output, or Laser 128 may be doable with just a cable.
Perhaps even more common than CGA monitors, were monochrome digital (MDA) or
TTL or Hercules compatible monitors. These used a 9 pin connector very much
like the CGA, with monochrome Video output on pin 7 (Red,Green,Blue unused).
Intensity was used. These monitors worked at 50Hz vertical, 18KHz horizontal
instead of 60/15Khz. Many PC clones could provide either of these video on
the same connector.
And I even have an odd hybrid, a CGA mono, which takes RGBI at 60/15K and
displays it greyscale on a mono monitor.
IBM CGA
1. Shield Ground
2. Ground
3. Red
4. Green
5. Blue
6. Intensity
7. Mono (not CGA)
8. Horizontal Sync
9. Vertical Sync
Some additional comments:
Improvement with the digital monitors may not be as much as you would
expect. The Apple does some tricky things with color and video in its high
res and double hi-res modes. These don't always translate well into digital.
The AppleColor composite monitor gives a pretty good picture. It also has a
black and white switch which can improve the display quality on text and
monochrome graphics. The Laser 128 has a mono/color switch which can often
improve the display for text and graphics when set to mono.
I believe the Apple digital monitors are a little bit different than the IBM
type. They use something called XRGB or linear-weighted summing. Standard
RGB actually has bright and dim versions of 8 colors. The Apple produces 16
(or 15) different colors. Many are the same on both, but not all.
Joel
"Simon Williams" <DONT...@luddite.ca> wrote in message
news:116161....@news.telusplanet.net...
Doesn't sound right.
While the Laser has RGB on its port, the //c doesn't.
I have some Laser to CGA cables.
The //c and Laser do have pins in common for LCD display and for Composite
video and sound.
See my comprehensive writeup on RGB and theApple ii.
Joel
"Jose Carlos Lord Apple" <agu...@onixinformatica.com.br> wrote in message
news:f57a920b.02110...@posting.google.com...
Jose,
see my post on RGB and the Apple ii
I suspect you don't actually have a mono RGB monitor.
While some may think that's a contradiction in terms (black and white color
monitor), they do exist-I have one.
It takes RGBI input and makes it greyscale.
Your don't have the pin #'s listed on your connector.
But an RGB mono needs to have the Red, Green and Blue signals.
If the one you have labeled Reserved is pin 7, then you actually have a
common MDA or monochrome TTL monitor.
This signal is for monochrome digital video input.
Also, this monitor runs at 50hz/18khz not 60 hz/15Khz that CGA does.
It's conceivable that such a monitor might be able to lock onto the CGA sync
signals.
But you have to run something into the video input.
For a test, just run the Green signal (Laser pin 15)
It should enable you to see text.
But trying to display the Apples 15 colors on a digital mono monitor (which
has effectively 3 colors black, white, and bright white) doesn't work.
Actual mono CGA monitors convert the 16 RGBI combinations into 16 grey
levels.
Joel
Michael J. Mahon
<excellent summary of Apple II/III video pinouts snipped>
>The AppleColor composite monitor gives a pretty good picture. It also has a
>black and white switch which can improve the display quality on text and
>monochrome graphics. The Laser 128 has a mono/color switch which can often
>improve the display for text and graphics when set to mono.
The function of the switch on the Laser 128 is to eliminate the color burst
from the composite signal. All Apples and compatibles incorporate color
burst supression for text modes, but, of course, the color burst is on for
all graphics modes.
The reason for this is that composite color is an "artifact" of isolated,
precisely timed graphic "dots", and text is made up primarily of just such
dots. As a result, a text display with color burst on will show lots of
distracting color fringes.
Since many applications and environments present text in a graphics
mode, having a manual switch to disable the color burst is quite handy.
The AppleColor Composite monitor is a very special case.
Virtually all composite monitors have a luminance (intensity) bandwidth
which is limited to about 3MHz, because the chrominance information
is carried on a suppressed-carrier 3.58MHz subcarrier signal. A better
(and more expensive) way to filter the subcarrier from the luminance
signal is to use a comb filter, but these are very unusual in older
composite color monitors.
Because of this luminance bandwidth limitation, most composite
color monitors display "fuzzy" text and graphics, and are incapable
of sharp 80-column text display.
The AppleColor Composite monitor has a special luminance filter
circuit which limits the luminance bandwidth to 3MHz _only_ when a
color burst is present. When the color burst is absent, or when the
monochrome button on the front panel is pressed, the luminance
bandwidth is increased to 6 or 7 MHz (IIRC--I can't find my manual).
This allows 80-column text to be cleanly, if not crisply, reproduced.
Jose Carlos Lord Apple
Yes, the reserved is the pin 7 !!!! I sent you a private message.
Thanks Joel,
Jose Carlos
Brazil