New GS OS?
smtr...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Eh, I don't want to get into the flamefest, but on the recent
thread about a new OS for the GS, Ihave to disagree... I *do*
think it'd be nice to have a sytem update, and I think it could
extend the GS' usefulness considerably. Furthermore, IMHO,
I think someone who could come up with a modified OS/OS system
patch would stand a *much* greater chance of making a few more
dollars than they would in the creation of another new game.
Obviously Brutal Deluxe can decide what project to work on when,
or even if to work on it all, and is under no obligation to
release it to everyone, even after beta testing. However, I can
say for myself that I would fork out some $$ for a OS revision,
but I can't see myself doing the same for another game. I think
its great BD is still working on software for this platform, and
they should be commended for even contemplating a 6.0.2 revision.
As far as what features the new OS would have to make it more
System 7ish, that aren't available via init, I also have to disagree &
say that there are a number of things I'd love to have on my
OS, not the least of which is the obvious:
-multitasking.
Yeah, there is MultiGS, and I heard about a MultiFinderGS that
was being developed in France some years back... anyone know about
this?
I also have to say that personally, the one thing I would *most*
love to have on my OS is
-ability to view content of nested directories
Given the limitations of the GS screen size, havingthe ability to view
the contents of a nested directory *without* opening another window
would be a lifesaver... It would be worth having paying for a new OS
just to get those silly little System 7 triangles on my menu 8-)
-Improved HFS.FST
I think this improvement is obvious. while we're at it, what about
Read/Write capabilities added to the DOS & MSDOS FSTs? And 5.25
disk support for the MSDOS FST? (While I'm dreaming, what about
HD 5.25 support for *any* Apple II format...
-Folder size automatically computed
It would be nice to see the size of folders displayed in the menu along
with apps with out Icon info *and* calculating... Yeah, you'd really need
to accelerate to 8-10 MHz for this feature, I know...
-ability to puts apps in the apple menu.
This is picky, especially since the are inits that allow you to put
aliass in the Finder Extras... but....
anyway, for what its worth...
Shawn
Geoff Weiss
In article <1996Oct...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>,
<smtr...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote:
>Eh, I don't want to get into the flamefest, but on the recent
>thread about a new OS for the GS, Ihave to disagree... I *do*
>think it'd be nice to have a sytem update, and I think it could
>extend the GS' usefulness considerably. Furthermore, IMHO,
I will not disagree with this statement, but there is only so much
that two people can do. Have you looked at the credits for all the
programmers who put together System 6.0 and earlier. There were
litterally teams of programmers working on it. If the future of the
operating system has boiled down to only two non-Apple employed
programmers, give them some slack. If they had 40 more programmers
also doing development work, then publicly releases would be a real
issue.
>its great BD is still working on software for this platform, and
>they should be commended for even contemplating a 6.0.2 revision.
They don't get as much gratitude as they deserve.
>As far as what features the new OS would have to make it more
>System 7ish, that aren't available via init, I also have to disagree &
>say that there are a number of things I'd love to have on my
>OS, not the least of which is the obvious:
>-multitasking.
>Yeah, there is MultiGS, and I heard about a MultiFinderGS that
>was being developed in France some years back... anyone know about
>this?
Seven Hills sells The Manager which is what came of this product.
This multitasking environment is great for what it can do, but don't expect
it to work with alot of older software. There is no way the GS can have
multitasking capability and work with all of older software. There are
programs being developed today that don't work with The Manager.
Multitasking is not a real option for the future of the GS/OS. Too many
people use older software and wouldn't upgrade their software to make
it work. Developers wouldn't spend time revamping their software since
there won't be any sales. It is a chicken and the egg issue.
>-ability to view content of nested directories
I like this idea. It wouldn't be too hard to implement as long as the
source code for the Finder is complete.
>-Improved HFS.FST
I don't know if Brutal Deluxe is up to the challenge of figuring out what
is causing the directory/file corruption. Others have expressed interest
in tracking this down. Someone who has time and an excellent understanding
of B+ trees should be able to figure out what is wrong. I went through
my computer science curriculum without learning how the B+ tree structure
really works.
>I think this improvement is obvious. while we're at it, what about
>Read/Write capabilities added to the DOS & MSDOS FSTs? And 5.25
>disk support for the MSDOS FST? (While I'm dreaming, what about
>HD 5.25 support for *any* Apple II format...
Doesn't the MS-DOS support 5.25" disks on the Blue Disk controller? Apple
5.25" drives can not access MFM encoded disks so I hope you weren't
assuming you could use the Apple 5.25" drive for IBM 5.25" disks.
>-Folder size automatically computed
>It would be nice to see the size of folders displayed in the menu along
>with apps with out Icon info *and* calculating... Yeah, you'd really need
>to accelerate to 8-10 MHz for this feature, I know...
I have a 9 MHz Zip and I would *hate* for automatic folder calculation
to take place on my *:system:fonts folder. Getting the folder calculation
from "Get Info" is good enough for the few times I need it. If the
standard IIgs was 20 Mhz, then I would say that auto-computed folder
sizes would be nice addition. The standard IIgs is still 2.8 MHz so
any system enhancements are still bound by this limitation.
>-ability to puts apps in the apple menu.
>This is picky, especially since the are inits that allow you to put
>aliass in the Finder Extras... but....
The Mac allows for applications in the desk accessories because it can
multitask applications. Since GS/OS isn't a multitasking environment this
seems useless. Why can't you put aliases on your desktop? That is what
my friend does. I like using the Extras menu in the Finder.
If you want the ability to launch programs from within a program, Seven
Hills sells TransProg III which can do that.
Geoff
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Dave Althoff
Geoff Weiss (ge...@the-hermes.net) wrote:
: <smtr...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote:
: >-ability to puts apps in the apple menu.
: >This is picky, especially since the are inits that allow you to put
: >aliass in the Finder Extras... but....
: The Mac allows for applications in the desk accessories because it can
: multitask applications. Since GS/OS isn't a multitasking environment this
: seems useless. Why can't you put aliases on your desktop? That is what
: my friend does. I like using the Extras menu in the Finder.
Just my story...
I've got an "Aliases" directory on my HFS volume (:Magnum) with aliases to
all of my major applications scattered across all five partitions of my drive
(/Gemini, /Thunderbolt, /Cyclone, /Tornado, :Magnum). The nice thing
about putting the aliases on the HFS volume is that I can use HFS
filenames for the aliases. And by putting them all in a single directory,
cleaning up the desktop is trivial. Most of the time, my :Magnum:Aliases
window is the only one I have open unless I'm doing Finder-based file
management, or running Applesoft programs.
As long as we're talking about GS/OS enhancements, how about an upgrade to
BASIC.SYSTEM...BASIC.SYS16. I can live with Applesoft programs being
limited to the same memory constraints as on a 48k machine even on my 5Mb
GS, and I really don't need a SHR graphics interface...I can live with the
standard complement of Applesoft outputs. But it would sure be nice to
have access to the GS/OS file system...for instance, the ability to
recover data from DOS, MS-DOS, or HFS volumes from within an Applesoft
program...
--Dave Althoff, ][.
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Marvin
smtr...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu wrote:
: -Folder size automatically computed
: It would be nice to see the size of folders displayed in the menu along
: with apps with out Icon info *and* calculating... Yeah, you'd really need
: to accelerate to 8-10 MHz for this feature, I know...
BTW, I think (but I am not sure) that EGO Systems sells a finder extension
which performs some automatical size calculation of folders if you select
an Icon info for them. If this helps you, you may ask for more info at
d...@genie.com
-Marvin-
Dark_Dude
In Article <1996Oct...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>,
<smtr...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote:
>-multitasking.
>Yeah, there is MultiGS, and I heard about a MultiFinderGS that
>was being developed in France some years back... anyone know about
>this?
You mean "the Manager"?? I have version 1.5...
-= Doede =-
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Apple II Forever! | 1WSW Member, and fanatic dancer!
Geoff Weiss
>As long as we're talking about GS/OS enhancements, how about an upgrade to
>BASIC.SYSTEM...BASIC.SYS16. I can live with Applesoft programs being
>limited to the same memory constraints as on a 48k machine even on my 5Mb
>GS, and I really don't need a SHR graphics interface...I can live with the
>standard complement of Applesoft outputs. But it would sure be nice to
The Applesoft BASIC that is located in the ROM of every IIgs is hard coded
to only operate in BANK 0. Since parts of GS/OS and the entire 16-bit
stack resides in this area, writing a 16-bit equivalent of BASIC.SYSTEM
is only a small fraction of the work needed. The Applesoft interpretor
would have to be rewritten as well so it would operate in any bank in
the GS. Since Applesofrt is partly (wholly?) copyright by Microsoft,
I wonder if the hassle to release such a program would be worth it.
If this would be written to 100% Applesoft compatible, you would have
a program that requires 1 meg of memory just to run a 35k
Applesoft BASIC program. Just thinking about the irony...
Nathan Mates
In article <53kbv3$n...@seeker.the-hermes.net>,
Geoff Weiss <ge...@the-hermes.net> wrote:
>>As long as we're talking about GS/OS enhancements, how about an upgrade to
>>BASIC.SYSTEM...BASIC.SYS16. I can live with Applesoft programs being
>>limited to the same memory constraints as on a 48k machine even on my 5Mb
>>GS, and I really don't need a SHR graphics interface...I can live with the
>>standard complement of Applesoft outputs. But it would sure be nice to
>If this would be written to 100% Applesoft compatible, you would have
>a program that requires 1 meg of memory just to run a 35k
>Applesoft BASIC program. Just thinking about the irony...
It's been a pet project of mine for a long while now to do some
sort of Applesoft minicompiler. [No real opts, and it'd just turn the
code into asm source which could then be fed to Orca/M (possibly also
requiring Orca/C libraries, but I think that may no longer be
necessary) and produce a EXE/S16 out of it.] Of course, with all the
other things I've been doing, this program hasn't gotten very far at
all.
No promises if/when this'll ever become halfway useable; I've got
enough GS projects I'd like to do that'd keep me busy for the next
year, even if I worked fulltime on them]
A Basic runtime interpreter might be simpler in a whole bunch of
ways (it's already parsed), but I'm interested in making things run
nicer.
Nathan Mates
--
<*> Nathan Mates http://www.visi.com/~nathan/ <*>
# What are the facts? Again and again and again-- what are the _facts_?
# Shun wishful thinking, avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors
# think-- what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? -R.A. Heinlein
Tilghman Lesher
Nathan Mates (nat...@visi.com) wrote:
: In article <53kbv3$n...@seeker.the-hermes.net>,
: Geoff Weiss <ge...@the-hermes.net> wrote:
: >>As long as we're talking about GS/OS enhancements, how about an upgrade to
: >>BASIC.SYSTEM...BASIC.SYS16. I can live with Applesoft programs being
: >>limited to the same memory constraints as on a 48k machine even on my 5Mb
: >>GS, and I really don't need a SHR graphics interface...I can live with the
: >>standard complement of Applesoft outputs. But it would sure be nice to
: >If this would be written to 100% Applesoft compatible, you would have
: >a program that requires 1 meg of memory just to run a 35k
: >Applesoft BASIC program. Just thinking about the irony...
: It's been a pet project of mine for a long while now to do some
: sort of Applesoft minicompiler. [No real opts, and it'd just turn the
: code into asm source which could then be fed to Orca/M (possibly also
: requiring Orca/C libraries, but I think that may no longer be
: necessary) and produce a EXE/S16 out of it.] Of course, with all the
: other things I've been doing, this program hasn't gotten very far at
: all.
What the heck for? It's already parsed... just do an interpreter...
If you make it into a S16 or EXE file, pretty soon people will want
extensions which will transform it into VB.
Say, this would be an opportunity to fix the THEN FLASH bug which
turns on TRACE.
--
__ __|_) | |
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_| _|_|\__, |_| _|_|_|_|\__,_|_| _|
____/
Nathan Mates
In article <53lthb$f...@news.vanderbilt.edu>,
Tilghman Lesher <lesh...@vuse.vanderbilt.edu> wrote:
>: It's been a pet project of mine for a long while now to do some
>: sort of Applesoft minicompiler.
>What the heck for? It's already parsed... just do an interpreter...
5 letters: 'speed'. [And I don't mean the bomb :]
Edhel Iaur
nat...@visi.com (Nathan Mates) wrote:
>In article <53lthb$f...@news.vanderbilt.edu>,
>Tilghman Lesher <lesh...@vuse.vanderbilt.edu> wrote:
>>: It's been a pet project of mine for a long while now to do some
>>: sort of Applesoft minicompiler.
>>What the heck for? It's already parsed... just do an interpreter...
> 5 letters: 'speed'. [And I don't mean the bomb :]
POP QUIZ! Your ZipGS goes 20 MHZ, the bomb is armed! Turn off the
fan, and the bomb goes off! Whatta ya do? (And if I see any RAM disk
files escaping to a Zip disk, I detonate the bomb immediately!)
:D
Nathan Mates
In article <53lthb$f...@news.vanderbilt.edu>,
Tilghman Lesher <lesh...@vuse.vanderbilt.edu> wrote:
>: It's been a pet project of mine for a long while now to do some
>: sort of Applesoft minicompiler
>What the heck for? It's already parsed... just do an interpreter...
The other reasons why I prefer compiling: Applesoft Basic already
allows stuff that really would be a major pain to implement in a
runtime interpreter (CALL, USR(), &, PEEK/POKE outside of the video
softswitch areas). By forcing things thru a compiler, you can catch
such things then rather than runtime exceptions-- and someone who owns
Orca/M would usually have the skills to integrate assembly/machine
language into the rest of the code.
Compiling also lets you determine variable usage (there are 37*26*6
([A-Z][A-Z0-9 ], %,$,float and arrays on those 3 types) once, rather
than lookup tables or other methods for allocation.
Given that this project's not getting much work done on it at all,
this is all rather academic.
Nathan
Edhel Iaur
nat...@visi.com (Nathan Mates) wrote:
>In article <53lthb$f...@news.vanderbilt.edu>,
>Tilghman Lesher <lesh...@vuse.vanderbilt.edu> wrote:
>>: It's been a pet project of mine for a long while now to do some
>>: sort of Applesoft minicompiler.
>>What the heck for? It's already parsed... just do an interpreter...
> 5 letters: 'speed'. [And I don't mean the bomb :]
POP QUIZ! Your ZipGS goes 20 MHZ, the bomb is armed! Turn off the
fan, and the bomb goes off! Whatta ya do? (And if I see any RAM disk
files escaping to a Zip disk, I detonate the bomb immediately!)
:D
--
| / / />___________________ +==Apple // Forever==+
|___ _____ M#M#M#||___________________---__ +-37th Wisest Wizard-+
| \ \ / #M#M#M||___________________--- +- Edhel Iaur -+
| / / \_/ \>
www.wco.com/~3d5d1wsw/US-A2WUG/FOUNDING.MEMBERS/HOME.PAGES/EDHEL
smtr...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Geoff wrote:
(clip)
>>-multitasking.
>>Yeah, there is MultiGS, and I heard about a MultiFinderGS that
>>was being developed in France some years back... anyone know about
>>this?
>
> Seven Hills sells The Manager which is what came of this product.
>
Aha... I always wondered about that.
(clip)
>>Read/Write capabilities added to the DOS & MSDOS FSTs? And 5.25
>>disk support for the MSDOS FST? (While I'm dreaming, what about
>>HD 5.25 support...
>
> Doesn't the MS-DOS support 5.25" disks on the Blue Disk controller? Apple
That's right, I forgot about the blue disk card...
> 5.25" drives can not access MFM encoded disks so I hope you weren't
> assuming you could use the Apple 5.25" drive for IBM 5.25" disks.
No, not with Apple Drives, again the Blue disk card slipped my mind.
However, I didn't think that the Blue Disk Card allowed access to Apple
drives... I thought the Blue Disk was solely for hooking up MFM drives
(720k & 1.44 MB... and even 2.88MB, right?). The limitation is therefore
that if you hook up an IBM drive, you can't read 800k GCR disks, which
are standard for the GS. You need a SuperDrive card & Superdrive for that..
However, if you've got a SuperDrive set-up, you can't use an MFM 5.25
drive, so no go on that. What I was thinking about was a revised
controller card and Drive that would essentially allow GCR/MFM access
from one drive, and a corresponding FST. It would be possible, but it
could never happen anymore. (like I said, I can *dream* can't I?) 8-)
>>-Folder size automatically computed
>>It would be nice to see the size of folders displayed in the menu along
>>with apps with out Icon info *and* calculating... Yeah, you'd really need
>>to accelerate to 8-10 MHz for this feature, I know...
>
> I have a 9 MHz Zip and I would *hate* for automatic folder calculation
> to take place on my *:system:fonts folder. Getting the folder calculation
> from "Get Info" is good enough for the few times I need it. If the
> standard IIgs was 20 Mhz, then I would say that auto-computed folder
> sizes would be nice addition. The standard IIgs is still 2.8 MHz so
> any system enhancements are still bound by this limitation.
Yeah, but it would be a nice *option* for those who can... like it is on the
Mac. there are times this would be a real timesaver for me.
Shawn
Sönke Behrens
smtr...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu wrote:
>No, not with Apple Drives, again the Blue disk card slipped my mind.
>However, I didn't think that the Blue Disk Card allowed access to Apple
>drives... I thought the Blue Disk was solely for hooking up MFM drives
>(720k & 1.44 MB... and even 2.88MB, right?). The limitation is therefore
>that if you hook up an IBM drive, you can't read 800k GCR disks, which
>are standard for the GS. You need a SuperDrive card & Superdrive for that..
>However, if you've got a SuperDrive set-up, you can't use an MFM 5.25
>drive, so no go on that. What I was thinking about was a revised
Actually, the BlueDisk has a _very_ smart feature insofar as, as long
as you keep within the confines of GS/OS, you will be able to use it
in Slot 5 _and_ keep Slot 5 set to internal. Don't ask me how the
GS/OS driver of the BlueDisk does that :). This means that I can use
my original 800k GCR Apple drive alongside a MFM 3.5" drive
(1.44/1.6MB in my case, 2.88MB doesn't tempt me) and don't even have
to sacrifice another slot for it. Neat :).
Soenke
--
If you declare love, what identifier scope does it have?
(Unknown C geek)
Philip Stephens
Sönke Behrens writes:
> Actually, the BlueDisk has a _very_ smart feature insofar as, as long
> as you keep within the confines of GS/OS, you will be able to use it
> in Slot 5 _and_ keep Slot 5 set to internal
Is the BlueDisk card still available, and if so where from, and for
how much?
Nathan Mates
In article <54lbjr$o...@bocanews.bocaraton.ibm.com>,
Philip Stephens <phi...@io.bocaraton.ibm.com> wrote:
>Soenke Behrens writes:
From the comp.sys.apple2 Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) posting at
http://www.visi.com/~nathan/a2/faq/csa2.html here's the answer:
---
Q#88 Fun hardware add-ons
SSH Systems, http://users.ids.net/~kerwood/shh.html (Write to: SHH
SYSTEME, Dipl. Ing. Joachim Lange, Bergstrasse 95, 82131 Stockdorf,
Germany) is selling a card, the Bluedisk, for your Apple that will
allow you to use cheap IBM drives for storage. Price is around
$100. Contact jla...@tasha.muc.de
---
Nathan Mates
Nathan Mates
In article <54lbjr$o...@bocanews.bocaraton.ibm.com>,
Philip Stephens <phi...@io.bocaraton.ibm.com> wrote:
I tried to cc my last reply to your mailbox, but your news software
is misconfigured and/or this email address is not valid. Care to fix
this?
Marvin
Philip Stephens (phi...@io.bocaraton.ibm.com) wrote:
: Is the BlueDisk card still available, and if so where from, and for
: how much?
Nathan, please allow me to quote this info from your page:
SSH Systems, http://users.ids.net/~kerwood/shh.html (Write to: SHH SYSTEME,
Dipl. Ing.Joachim Lange, Bergstrasse 95, 82131 Stockdorf, Germany) is
selling a card, the Bluedisk, for your Apple that will allow you to use
cheap IBM drives for storage. Price is around $100. Contact
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Philip Stephens
Nathan Mates writes:
> I tried to cc my last reply to your mailbox, but your news software
> is misconfigured and/or this email address is not valid. Care to fix
> this?
I'm working on it. The newsreader installed here is xrn, and it's
sitting behind a firewall. The address xrn puts into my posts is the
gateway rather than the machine I post from. No man pages were
installed so I'm looking around for some information on how to
configure xrn. Thanks for pointing it out, though.