Wikiwand Apple II character set errors?

[eri...@gmail.com]

This web page is driving me bonkers.
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Apple_II_character_set


Apple IIe
These characters are all completely in the wrong places.

Apple II/IIc
$80-9F Normal Uppercase (should be noted as control chars, not uppercase)
$E0-FF Normal Lowercase (II's don't have lowercase, but IIc's do)

Apple IIc alternate
$00-1F Control names are listed and not control characters?
$80-FF Inverse characters and MouseText present in High ASCII?

Apple IIgs
Looks okay.

Apple II+
This one has the low ASCII used in Applesoft, along with high ASCII being Applesoft tokens and error messages. This is all fine and dandy on how Applesoft interprets ASCII and TOKENS, but this is not II+ specific.
In addition:
$60-7F Normal lowercase (doesn't exist on II+)
$00-1F Control characters are all blanked out


I'm about ready to go in and make some changes. At the risk of sounding dumb here, am I wrong in my thinking that a lot of this page is wrong? I'm not familiar with telecommunications control characters. I am, however, very familiar with and confident on my understanding of the various systems screen values, along with the Applesoft ASCII/tokens and the Integer tokens/ASCII sets. Am I correct in my belief that this page has a lot of things wrong, or is there something I'm not aware of that's going to throw everything I know out the window? -_-

I'm 99% sure that I'm right. My 1% doubt is that someone obviously knew enough about Apple II's to publish some things that are correct, but I'm so perplexed on how they could have gotten so many things wrong. Did they know of something that I don't?

[D Finnigan]

eri...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I'm 99% sure that I'm right. My 1% doubt is that someone obviously knew
> enough about Apple II's to publish some things that are correct, but I'm
> so
> perplexed on how they could have gotten so many things wrong. Did they
> know of something that I don't?

The amount of erroneous information in this world is staggering, beyond
belief. It occurs in every conceivable field of human interest, and is
propagated the same way: by people who merely copy without verifying.

If you want to verify, I'd suggest looking at the Apple reference manuals
(for the original II, IIe, and so on). They usually had a character set
table toward the back in some appendix.

--
]DF$
The New Apple II User's Guide:
https://macgui.com/newa2guide/

[eri...@gmail.com]

Okay. Good enough for me. I made an ASCII screen code viewer program and checked it out on various systems in AppleWin, and even checked between primary and alternate character sets. Not sure about the IIc and IIc Plus because AppleWin doesn't support them, though I'm pretty sure they're the same as the IIe screen codes. But yeah, I'll definitely refer to the official reference manuals to verify everything. Thank you for the response and I'm glad to know I'm not going crazy. LOL.

[fadden]

On Friday, October 29, 2021 at 12:15:42 PM UTC-7, eri...@gmail.com wrote:
> This web page is driving me bonkers.
> https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Apple_II_character_set

A few years back I added some notes to the "talk" page for that entry:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Apple_II_character_set

Some related info here:
https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/q/8652

[eri...@gmail.com]

Thank you for pointing that out. One surprising thing I've learned so far is that the Platinum IIe has the revised MouseText character set (running man replaced) like on the IIgs, and not the original MouseText (running man present) like on all the IIc's and the Enhanced IIe. The original IIe didn't even have MouseText, but it did have inverse lowercase and a duplicate of the inverse uppercase. So this makes me wonder about the Apple IIe card. I found that the flashing text was replaced with red characters on black background, or black on red (depending on options settings), but I'm having difficulty finding anything on the MouseText characters for it, if it uses the original or revised versions. I'm guessing that if it doesn't specifically say "revised" or "updated", then it's probably the original. I will omit my findings on the IIe card since it's incomplete, unless someone here can point me to an authentic source that clarifies this. I'm still working on a plan of attack for updating the page. I don't want to be too hasty on this.

[Steve Nickolas]

On Thu, 4 Nov 2021, eri...@gmail.com wrote:

> One surprising thing I've learned so far is that the Platinum IIe has
> the revised MouseText character set (running man replaced) like on the
> IIgs, and not the original MouseText (running man present) like on all
> the IIc's and the Enhanced IIe.

That's not my experience.

-uso.

[eri...@gmail.com]

Could you please elaborate? Are you saying you've used a Platinum IIe and you haven't experienced the revised MouseText on it, or are you just saying you're not surprised it's there? If you have a source that says otherwise, please share. Also, I'm happy to list my source.

Apple IIe Owner's Guide (Platinum)(1986), p.133(pdf-151)
https://www.apple.asimov.net/documentation/hardware/machines/ > Apple IIe Owner's Guide.pdf
The original MouseText had the running man for characters F and G.  You can see for yourself in this official owner's guide that this has the newer characters, not the running man.

[Steve Nickolas]

On Sat, 6 Nov 2021, eri...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 9:38:41 PM UTC-5, Steve Nickolas wrote:
>> On Thu, 4 Nov 2021, eri...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> One surprising thing I've learned so far is that the Platinum IIe has
>>> the revised MouseText character set (running man replaced) like on the
>>> IIgs, and not the original MouseText (running man present) like on all
>>> the IIc's and the Enhanced IIe.
>> That's not my experience.
>>
>> -uso.
>
> Could you please elaborate? Are you saying you've used a Platinum IIe
> and you haven't experienced the revised MouseText on it, or are you just
> saying you're not surprised it's there? If you have a source that says
> otherwise, please share. Also, I'm happy to list my source.

I'm pretty sure that my old Platinum had the same MouseText as the
original Enhanced.

I no longer have it to check though.

-uso.

[eri...@gmail.com]

If that's the case...
Are there any current Platinum IIe owners in this forum that can confirm which version of MouseText theirs has? Could it be that some have version 1 and some had version 2?

[awanderin]

Just checked. My platinum IIe has the running-man characters in the 'F'
and 'G' positions. serial # 3A2S2 E711038A2S2128C, model # A2S2128

--
--
Jerry awanderin at gmail dot com

[awanderin]

In addition, the Video ROM part number is 342-0306-A, if that helps out
anyone.

[eri...@gmail.com]

It does, thank you. It's interesting though. My Enhanced IIe's Video ROM is 342-0265-A, and it has the same MouseText as yours. The thought occurred to search the web for Apple II Video ROM's, and I found some .bin files with most of them labeled with their parts number. By the way, does anyone know what that 4 digit number at the end of each file name means?

I looked at the first few bytes a few of the first half of some of the IIe/IIc files and found that it was all the screen characters from the alternate set with the pixel data being inverted. I have no idea about the second half of the file as it doesn't appear to be character data or even 6502 instructions. I'm thinking it may have something to do with video timing or the handling of primary/alternate character sets. Or maybe it's information on how the graphic screens work. Does anyone here know what it is?

There's also a file named "Apple IIe Video - Enhanced - IIgs F-G MouseText Fix- 2732.bin" with no part number. Shouldn't there be a part number with this?

https://wiki.reactivemicro.com/Apple_Chip_Designations
@Jerry - According to this source, your Video ROM is French. Is that what you have?

bin files:
https://downloads.reactivemicro.com/Apple%20II%20Items/ROM_and_JEDEC/IIe/Video%20ROM/
http://www.applelogic.org/APPLEASICs.html
https://macgui.com/downloads/?file_id=23998

[awanderin]

If you're referring to the 2716, 2732, or 2764, it's the type/size of
ROM/EPROM in which the contents are stored. 2716 chips are 2 kilobyte
EPROMs, 2732 are 4kB, and 2764 are 8kB.

> I looked at the first few bytes a few of the first half of some of the IIe/IIc files and
> found that it was all the screen characters from the alternate set with the pixel data
> being inverted. I have no idea about the second half of the file as it doesn't appear to
> be character data or even 6502 instructions. I'm thinking it may have something to do
> with video timing or the handling of primary/alternate character sets. Or maybe it's
> information on how the graphic screens work. Does anyone here know what it is?

All the video data goes through the character ROM: text, lo-res, and
hi-res, including double-res modes. Look for James Sather's
"Understanding the Apple IIe". It describes this ROM in detail in
chapter 8.

> There's also a file named "Apple IIe Video - Enhanced - IIgs F-G MouseText Fix- 2732.bin"
> with no part number. Shouldn't there be a part number with this?

There are lots of ROM files kicking around the web. I have quite a
collection of them. Perhaps, if you have the `sha1sum1` command-line
tool on your computer, computer the SHA1 hash of the file.

Here's a list of all the IIe-related ROM files I have collected and
their SHA1 sum:

0dc93e94a236f50aca92e3afff8e486dbfaf5fc3 IIEDBV6.BIN
127dd1fa955dbf85949e19e114d9ac235a802a0d 342-0284A-2716.bin
12a2e718f5f4acd69b6c33a45a4a940b1440a481 342-0132-C_iie-keyboard_2716.bin
3aecc56a26134df51e65e17f33ae80c1f1ac93e6 342-0304-A_iie-enhanced-CD_2764.rom
3aecc56a26134df51e65e17f33ae80c1f1ac93e6 apple-iie_cd-enhanced.rom
4043e0808af8be096660827445e41149d16c5c85 Apple_IIe_Video_French_Canadian-Enhanced-2732.bin
42afb02aab4146f781ac52803a2733adc4da834e Apple_IIe_Video_French_Canadian-Unenhanced-341-0168-A-2732.bin
47bb9608be38ff75429a989b930a93b47099648e 341-0150-A_iie-keyboard_2716.bin
48aafa9a72002c495bc1f3d28150630ff89ca47e 341-0160-A_iie-video-euro-enhanced_2764.rom
523838c19c79f481fa02df56856da1ec3816d16e 342-0135-B_iie-unenhanced-CD_2764.rom
523838c19c79f481fa02df56856da1ec3816d16e apple-iie_cd-orig.rom
58ad0008df72896a18601e090ee0d58155ffa5be 342-0133-A_iie-video-unenhanced_2732.rom
59ea6d22282c2554ee8a3da7faf095ff3b105eb3 Apple_IIe-IIc_TMG-341-0170-A-ABEL_Equations.txt
8895a4b703f2184b673078f411f4089889b61c54 342-0134-A_iie-unenhanced-EF_2764.rom
8895a4b703f2184b673078f411f4089889b61c54 apple-iie_ef-orig.rom
8e14e85c645187504ec9d162b3ea614a0c421d32 342-0132-D_iie-keyboard_2716.bin
a6cca6c569dba80aeb789c9cb7292f93dab00c29 341-0161-A_iie-video-deutsch-usa.rom
a6cca6c569dba80aeb789c9cb7292f93dab00c29 341-0161-A_iie-video-enhanced-german_2764.rom
afb09bb96038232dc757d40c0605623cae38088e 342-0303-A_iie-enhanced-EF_2764.rom
afb09bb96038232dc757d40c0605623cae38088e apple-iie_ef-enhanced.rom
b2b5d87f52693817fc747df087a4aa1ddcdb1f10 342-0265-A_iie-video-enhanced_2732.rom
b8ea90abe135a0031065e01697c4a3a20d51198b 342-0349-B_iie-platinum-CF_27128_c000-ffff_1985.rom
b8ea90abe135a0031065e01697c4a3a20d51198b apple2e-platinum-cf.bin
c0a4fa9e073f6466011502098a4275be39aaa813 Apple_IIe-IIc_TMG-341-0170-A-PAL16R8.jed
c17d5812d72211b71674a6faa03c34cc8ff967f1 Apple_IIe-IIc_TMG-341-0170-A-ABEL_Equations_Labeled.txt
c2f249589ee02121c27336af022bbca0cc9b2245 342-0132-B_iie-keyboard_2716.bin
c44809bbb017bfe3c07dc99e87a3a9fa7b9741c3 341-0151-A_iie-keyboard-deutsch-usa.rom
c44809bbb017bfe3c07dc99e87a3a9fa7b9741c3 341-0151-A_iie-keyboard-german_2716.rom
d0c9b008f87b1f5a06df3fc3bb0a8243036187f0 342-0284A-2732.bin
d756eba578a6c5a4807510dfee30ee585c63755e apple2e.rom
fa53db6c055960eb2f2eef7cd2827a426a70b945 Apple_IIe-IIc_TMG-341-0170-A-GAL16V8.JED

If your file matches one of these with a product number on it, you'll
know what it is. For example, one of the files in this list is
`apple-iie_ef-enhanced.rom`, and you'll see it has the same SHA1 as
`342-0303-A_iie-enhanced-EF_2764.rom`. This example is not enlightening
because both files do describe the contents as the enhanced EF ROM.

> https://wiki.reactivemicro.com/Apple_Chip_Designations
> @Jerry - According to this source, your Video ROM is French. Is that what you have?

My IIe is a Canadian model. It has a switch under the keyboard, at the
front, to switch between English and French characters. So, it's both
French and English.

> bin files:
> https://downloads.reactivemicro.com/Apple%20II%20Items/ROM_and_JEDEC/IIe/Video%20ROM/
> http://www.applelogic.org/APPLEASICs.html
> https://macgui.com/downloads/?file_id=23998
>

[Steve Nickolas]

On Wed, 17 Nov 2021, eri...@gmail.com wrote:

> It does, thank you. It's interesting though. My Enhanced IIe's Video
> ROM is 342-0265-A, and it has the same MouseText as yours. The thought
> occurred to search the web for Apple II Video ROM's, and I found some
> .bin files with most of them labeled with their parts number. By the
> way, does anyone know what that 4 digit number at the end of each file
> name means?
>
> I looked at the first few bytes a few of the first half of some of the
> IIe/IIc files and found that it was all the screen characters from the
> alternate set with the pixel data being inverted. I have no idea about
> the second half of the file as it doesn't appear to be character data or
> even 6502 instructions. I'm thinking it may have something to do with
> video timing or the handling of primary/alternate character sets. Or
> maybe it's information on how the graphic screens work. Does anyone
> here know what it is?
>
> There's also a file named "Apple IIe Video - Enhanced - IIgs F-G
> MouseText Fix- 2732.bin" with no part number. Shouldn't there be a part
> number with this?

I guess in that file, "2732" means burn to a 2732 chip?

-uso.