SAS/C technical support
Doug Walker
I regret to announce that as of December 23, 1994, SAS Institute Inc.
will terminate technical support for the SAS/C Development System
for AmigaDOS. Development has already been suspended, and there are
no plans to resume it.
The Amiga product has been fun, exciting, and challenging for those of
us on the development and technical support teams. We have tried very
hard to make the product succeed, but in the end it is a business
venture and must make money if it is to survive. Our sales figures,
both before and after the bankruptcy filing by Commodore International,
demonstrate that the product can't support its quite substantial
development and support costs.
I personally intend to continue reading the Amiga newsgroups, and
I suspect Jim Cooper and Steve Krueger will also be around. However,
we'll be reading and replying on our own time, so please don't
expect too much. We have also created a new patch release
(mostly on our own time) and will be releasing that before the
end of the year.
The Institute plans continue selling the Amiga product until our stock
is gone (and we have plenty right now), but we will make sure all
purchasers realize that technical support will soon be dropped. Given
the price drops from last summer, I think the compiler is still a
good deal if you plan to develop code on the Amiga.
It's been a great eight years. For me, it's the end of an era.
I wish the remaining Amiga developers the best of luck.
--
***** / wal...@unx.sas.com
*|_o_o|\\ Doug Walker< BIX, Portal: djwalker
*|. o.| || \ CompuServe: 71165,2274
| o |//
======
Any opinions expressed are mine, not those of SAS Institute, Inc.
Ron Charlton
<I regret to announce that as of December 23, 1994, SAS Institute Inc.
<will terminate technical support for the SAS/C Development System
<for AmigaDOS. Development has already been suspended, and there are
<no plans to resume it.
This is a great loss to the Amiga community. SAS/C is one of the best
products I've used on any computer in over twenty years.
I 'm sorry to see you quit the Amiga market; thanks to all the people at
SAS for the great work on the software, documentation and support.
< Doug Walker
Ron
--
A just machine to make big decisions | Ron Charlton
Programmed by fellows with compassion and vision | char...@cs.utk.edu
We'll be clean when their work is done ----------------------
We'll be eternally free yes and eternally young -- Donald Fagen, I.G.Y.
The Skeleton
>
>I regret to announce that as of December 23, 1994, SAS Institute Inc.
>will terminate technical support for the SAS/C Development System
>for AmigaDOS. Development has already been suspended, and there are
>no plans to resume it.
well what about after commodore is bought out and production is resumed in
full with the new owners of the company? Will SAS continue at that time?
Perhaps sales would go through the roof if the prices was not so high. Most
probably can't afford the $250. or so that it cost. $99. or so would probably
really increase the sales to an acceptable level. Those that can't afford SAS
are probably using the PD compilers and wishing they could afford the SAS
Compiler and a affordable price would probably push all of them to purchase it.
Also if that doesn't sound too good what about a scaled down version of the
compiler at a cheaper price, with an option to pay for an upgrade to get the
Also if that doesn't sound too good what about a scaled down version of the
compiler at a cheaper price, with an option to pay for an upgrade to get the
full version of sas.. that way people could buy a scaled down version to try
out and once they get hooked, which they will, they will want to pay for the
upgrade to the full package.. Well just some ideas on marketing. I feel that
leaving developement only because the company is in transition is not a very
good move. The Amiga's programmers are out there just like always, they didn't
go anywhere because of Commodore. After all who would want to code on crappy
ibm's or mac's. Once the Amiga is purchased and production/development
resumes, then it would be a good idea to continue SAS developement on Amiga too
I think.. Amiga has 060 cards now too.. Would be nice to have support for
060's in SAS C compilers. I know that I will be purchasing the 060 card as
soon as I gather money for it. There is really no competition for Commercial
C Compilers on Amiga, SAS has the market on it. I think it would be a bad move
to leave a market where you have the entire market there is. I think a simple
redesign in marketing and price would be the killer to push the product out the
door faster.
omue...@sunserver1.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de
: I regret to announce that as of December 23, 1994, SAS Institute Inc.
: will terminate technical support for the SAS/C Development System
: for AmigaDOS. Development has already been suspended, and there are
: no plans to resume it.
Shit. Thats what comes to my mind first. We all expected it, but no one
would have actually believed it. Are these the final flinches of the
Amiga ?
: The Amiga product has been fun, exciting, and challenging for those of
: us on the development and technical support teams. We have tried very
: hard to make the product succeed, but in the end it is a business
: venture and must make money if it is to survive. Our sales figures,
: both before and after the bankruptcy filing by Commodore International,
: demonstrate that the product can't support its quite substantial
: development and support costs.
: I personally intend to continue reading the Amiga newsgroups, and
: I suspect Jim Cooper and Steve Krueger will also be around. However,
: we'll be reading and replying on our own time, so please don't
: expect too much.
As long as there are Amigas out there ....
: We have also created a new patch release
: (mostly on our own time) and will be releasing that before the
: end of the year.
Thank you.
: The Institute plans continue selling the Amiga product until our stock
: is gone (and we have plenty right now), but we will make sure all
: purchasers realize that technical support will soon be dropped. Given
: the price drops from last summer, I think the compiler is still a
: good deal if you plan to develop code on the Amiga.
: It's been a great eight years. For me, it's the end of an era.
: I wish the remaining Amiga developers the best of luck.
Thank you very much for those eight years. Best of luck to you all.
: --
: ***** / wal...@unx.sas.com
: *|_o_o|\\ Doug Walker< BIX, Portal: djwalker
: *|. o.| || \ CompuServe: 71165,2274
: | o |//
: ======
: Any opinions expressed are mine, not those of SAS Institute, Inc.
In diesem Sinne,
Olav
omue...@sunserver1.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|GEEK: GM d-- -p+(+) c++(++++) !l u e+ m+(-) s/+ n- h+ f? g+ w+ t++ r+ y+|
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Blow your mind, smoke gunpowder. |
| GRAFFITI |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Matthias Scheler
> I regret to announce that as of December 23, 1994, SAS Institute Inc.
> will terminate technical support for the SAS/C Development System
> for AmigaDOS. Development has already been suspended, and there are
> no plans to resume it.
Sad, very sad ... *sigh*
But I hope we will get the 6.52 fix, won't we ?
> It's been a great eight years. For me, it's the end of an era.
> I wish the remaining Amiga developers the best of luck.
Thanks for your great program and the support.
--
Matthias Scheler
tr...@lyssa.owl.de
Jonas Flygare
It's sad to hear that one of the best compilers, not only for the
amiga, but best compared to many compilers in use on other computers
will be discontinued. I'll still use my compiler, and hope that the
market will one day become good enough for SAS to continue their
excellent work. Until then, cheers, and thanks for all the good work!
--
Safe PGP key fingerprint = A7 FA 4D 35 73 0E DB 65 69 D5 D4 E1 02 E6 91 E2
Unix PGP key fingerprint = 0D 22 64 4D 05 35 53 BA 83 56 7B 56 C6 61 D4 A7
DNA sequence fingerprint = 0E 21 45 FA 7A 11 34 FE ED DE AD BE EF 8F 10 71
DNA copyright 1962 - 1994 by Jonas Flygare, Copyright yours before IBM does.
Doug Walker
In article <35l1sf$b...@dsm6.dsmnet.com>, mikeb...@dsm1.dsmnet.com (The Skeleton) writes:
|> In article <CwDpw...@unx.sas.com>, wal...@chang.unx.sas.com (Doug Walker) writes:
|> >
|> >I regret to announce that as of December 23, 1994, SAS Institute Inc.
|> >will terminate technical support for the SAS/C Development System
|> >for AmigaDOS. Development has already been suspended, and there are
|> >no plans to resume it.
|>
|>
|> well what about after commodore is bought out and production is resumed in
|> full with the new owners of the company? Will SAS continue at that time?
|> Perhaps sales would go through the roof if the prices was not so high. Most
|> probably can't afford the $250. or so that it cost. $99. or so would probably
Thanks for your marketing ideas, but they just aren't realistic.
1. Prices have to be set based on development costs (not
production costs.) Development costs for a major release
of SAS/C run around a million dollars. Last summer's
price cuts pretty much cut the product to the bone. There
is absolutely nowhere else to go given the size of the
Amiga market.
2. Our recent price cuts dropped the full retail price to $200,
and the competitive upgrade/student price to $100. It had
a minor impact on the number of sales, but a negative
impact on the actual profits.
3. You seem to think that the Commodore liquidation caused us
to make this decision. This is not true. The liquidation
was a factor, but even before Commodore's demise, our sales
were not sufficient to justify a 7.0. From a pure business
perspective, 6.50 should never have been produced - 6.0 was
marginal at best.
Doug Walker
In article <37...@lyssa.owl.de>, tr...@lyssa.owl.de (Matthias Scheler) writes:
|> walker wrote in comp.sys.amiga.programmer about "SAS/C technical support":
|> > I regret to announce that as of December 23, 1994, SAS Institute Inc.
|> > will terminate technical support for the SAS/C Development System
|> > for AmigaDOS. Development has already been suspended, and there are
|> > no plans to resume it.
|>
|> Sad, very sad ... *sigh*
|>
|> But I hope we will get the 6.52 fix, won't we ?
|>
I mentioned the new patch release in that posting.
It will be provided, but it won't be called 6.52 thanks to some
scumbag pirates who have come out with their OWN 6.52 and 6.53
patches.
Let me take this opportunity again to warn SAS/C customers against
using any patch labelled "6.52" or "6.53". The latest SAS/C patch
is 6.51.
Marc Espie
Doug Walker <wal...@chang.unx.sas.com> wrote:
| 2. Our recent price cuts dropped the full retail price to $200,
| and the competitive upgrade/student price to $100. It had
| a minor impact on the number of sales, but a negative
| impact on the actual profits.
|
| 3. You seem to think that the Commodore liquidation caused us
| to make this decision. This is not true. The liquidation
| was a factor, but even before Commodore's demise, our sales
| were not sufficient to justify a 7.0. From a pure business
| perspective, 6.50 should never have been produced - 6.0 was
| marginal at best.
|
it would maybe be feasible to have Amiga Unlimited or whatever sponsor the
product. Paying part of the price, being a major contractor, bundling it with
ALL high-end machines.
I'm not quite certain about the way to go, but the future of the Amiga looks
very bleak without SAS/C, so IF Pleasance takes over, and IF he pushes the
amiga in the risc direction, he might be very interested in giving a big
push to help SAS keep an interest in amiga development.
>--
> ***** / wal...@unx.sas.com
> *|_o_o|\\ Doug Walker< BIX, Portal: djwalker
> *|. o.| || \ CompuServe: 71165,2274
> | o |//
> ======
>Any opinions expressed are mine, not those of SAS Institute, Inc.
>
--
[nosave]<http://acacia.ens.fr:8080/home/espie/index.html>
`Ayuka no koto... suki dayo.' (KOR, Ano Hi ni kaeritai)
`鮎川 のことー好きだよ。' (あの日に帰りたい)
Marc Espie (Marc....@ens.fr)
Roland Schwingel
> I regret to announce that as of December 23, 1994, SAS Institute Inc.
> will terminate technical support for the SAS/C Development System
> for AmigaDOS. Development has already been suspended, and there are
> no plans to resume it.
every day since about 4 years. I was always sure to have a reliable
compiler under my fingers.
> The Amiga product has been fun, exciting, and challenging for those of
> us on the development and technical support teams.
It is also exciting and fun for me to use it. It is a great work. One
of the best softwarepackages for the amiga (not only on the compiler
sector).
> I personally intend to continue reading the Amiga newsgroups, and
> I suspect Jim Cooper and Steve Krueger will also be around. However,
> we'll be reading and replying on our own time, so please don't
> expect too much. We have also created a new patch release
> (mostly on our own time) and will be releasing that before the
> end of the year.
Thank you for this.
> The Institute plans continue selling the Amiga product until our stock
> is gone (and we have plenty right now), but we will make sure all
> purchasers realize that technical support will soon be dropped. Given
> the price drops from last summer, I think the compiler is still a
> good deal if you plan to develop code on the Amiga.
Indeed it is. I wouldn't use any other compiler on the amiga.
> It's been a great eight years. For me, it's the end of an era.
> I wish the remaining Amiga developers the best of luck.
Thanks, and also good luck to you and the others at SAS.
Aren't there any good news left on earth ... ?
Bye,
Roland.
--
P.S.: ATTENTION! NEW EMAIL ADRESS. PLEASE DON'T USE THE OLD ONE ANY LONGER.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roland Schwingel, Lilienthalstrasse 9, 92421 Schwandorf, Germany
NEW Email:roland.s...@extern.uni-regensburg.de
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ted M. Troccola, x4721
Hello all,
I am writing a tool on a 2000HD with 3 Megs of Ram.
What I wanna do is figure out how to handle events in C.
I used the GadToolsBox (b.t.w Is this the best interface tool
around for free?) to make my buttons and menus etc.
I can get the stuff to work from here but don't know how
to tell it what to do when I hit button A or button B ...
I'm sure this is a pretty basic problem so maybe someone has a
little code fragment that makes it easy to understand. I do have
the ROM Kernel and Libraries books so if necessary you can refer to
them.
Thanks
TED
Fred E. Hayes X4669 {sun53}
Amiga product line. Among the various compilers that I have worked with
including Borland, Microsoft, Unix (Sun C), IBM OS/2, and others, The SAS/C product
was my favorite.
Possibly some maudlin favoritism is expected as the Lattice C 1.0 compiler was
the first C compiler I ever used.
Is there any way that some entrepreneurial 3rd party can take over the product
and continue support for AmigaDos?
Good luck and thanks.
Scott Stanchfield
on Mon, 19 Sep 1994 13:38:44 GMT,
Doug Walker <wal...@chang.unx.sas.com> writes:
>
>I regret to announce that as of December 23, 1994, SAS Institute Inc.
>will terminate technical support for the SAS/C Development System
>for AmigaDOS. Development has already been suspended, and there are
>no plans to resume it.
>
Let me start the chain of responses...
First, thanks for the great support! I don't know if I've seen a
product that has had such accessible (and friendly) support personnel.
Second, I'm disappointed at this announcement, but I think many of
us expected it at some point. It's a great product, and I'm sorry to
hear it won't be upgraded.
But...
Is there any chance that the source could be released into PD?
I realize that much of the compiler's code is used on other platforms
as well, but is there some way to release the code with a
"non-competition/non-profit" clause associated with it? This would
allow a group of developers to keep the product alive on the Amiga.
As you've seen, there has been much discussion about the "best"
compiler, and it seems that while each compiler has its advantages,
none of them seem to cover all the concerns. I think that if the
SAS Amiga compiler were to have templates/exceptions added and have
GSTs usable for C++, we'd be pretty well on the way to the ideal
Amiga C/C++ compiler.
Once again, thanks for the support guys, and you've really made a
great product! I hope to still see y'all on this group!
Scott Stanchfield
(These are not the opinions of Loral Federal Systems.)
Stefan Proels
>In article <CwDpw...@unx.sas.com>, wal...@chang.unx.sas.com (Doug Walker) writes:
>>
>>I regret to announce that as of December 23, 1994, SAS Institute Inc.
>>will terminate technical support for the SAS/C Development System
>>for AmigaDOS. Development has already been suspended, and there are
>>no plans to resume it.
Why now? Why? Couldn't you wait another month?
We still don't know what's going to happen to the Amiga - do you?
This is sad news, very sad... and this is the deathblow :-(
>well what about after commodore is bought out and production is resumed in
>full with the new owners of the company? Will SAS continue at that time?
I fear they wouldn't have canceled the project if they saw a chance to
resume development :-(
>Perhaps sales would go through the roof if the prices was not so high. Most
>probably can't afford the $250. or so that it cost. $99. or so would probably
>really increase the sales to an acceptable level. Those that can't afford SAS
>are probably using the PD compilers and wishing they could afford the SAS
>Compiler and a affordable price would probably push all of them to purchase it.
The compiler was worth every penny. When I purchased it I paid about DM 600
- I wasn't at university those days and I didn't know anything about the
student discount anyway - I could get it for less then a third today but I
never felt I have wasted a single penny. This compiler was definitely the
best program my Amiga ever saw.
>good move. The Amiga's programmers are out there just like always, they didn't
>go anywhere because of Commodore. After all who would want to code on crappy
I don't understand that either...
Everything is fading away... C= died and now there isn't even a compiler
to continue any development. Anyone knows a reason to believe there'll be
a future?
Anyway, thanks for all you have done the last years.
Without you the machine I'm using right now wouldn't exist and without
you it will probably cease to exist...
//
Stefan \X/ pro...@fmi.uni-passau.de
--
// Internet: pro...@fmi.uni-passau.de
Bye, Stefan \X/ Fido: 2:2494/22.13
Kev Digweed
> >
> >I regret to announce that as of December 23, 1994, SAS Institute Inc.
> >will terminate technical support for the SAS/C Development System
> >for AmigaDOS. Development has already been suspended, and there are
> >no plans to resume it.
>
>
> well what about after commodore is bought out and production is resumed in
> full with the new owners of the company? Will SAS continue at that time?
> Also if that doesn't sound too good what about a scaled down version of the
> compiler at a cheaper price, with an option to pay for an upgrade to get the
> full version of sas.. that way people could buy a scaled down version to try
> out and once they get hooked, which they will, they will want to pay for the
> upgrade to the full package.. Well just some ideas on marketing.
I've never understood why CBM insisted on only producing "game" and "serious"
(ie WP, spreadsheet) bundles. Why not a "programmer" bundle. I'm sure that a
lot of students who are taking (or embarking on) CS courses where learning C
is going to be a major part would take advantage (or get their parents to take
advantage :) of such a bundle - say an A1200 with a (possibly cut-down, though
I'm not sure what you could leave out - maybe only support 68000 code
generation and remove the global optimiser or something) version of SAS/C.
OK, so I'm sure the market would be less than a "game" market (I don't see
many kids browsing Dixons on a Saturday morning and getting turned on by a
C compiler), but that's fine - just make less of those bundles, and still push
the game bundles for the high-street market. It might not make for *great*
sales, but it's better than losing sales to PeeCees.
This would also let SAS shift all those packages in their warehouse, and open
up a bigger upgrade market etc etc.
> After all who would want to code on crappy ibm's or mac's.
People who don't know what they're missing - that's why it's so important to
get (potential) programmers of the future using Amigas to learn on. Let them
know how good things *could* be right from the start, then they will not put up
with second best. This is, of course, IMHO.
Cheers,
Kev.
--
Kevin. Micro Focus, Newbury, UK. (k...@mfltd.co.uk)
These views are strictly my own.
I doubt very much that anyone else would want them.
Hans Guijt
> Is there any chance that the source could be released into PD?
Please don't! Imagine, hundreds of hackers each hacking in their own
bullshit... SAS/C would become like soundtracker, I think.
Far better that the new (and as yet undecided) Amiga Inc. buys the compiler.
They need it for OS development, and the amiga NEEDS a compiler if it wants
to succeed.
Hans
Friedhelm Miottke
On 19.09.94 at 13:38 Doug wrote
w> I regret to announce that as of December 23, 1994, SAS Institute Inc.
w> will terminate technical support for the SAS/C Development System
w> for AmigaDOS. Development has already been suspended, and there are
-cut-
This is a very sad Message, because the SAS/C-System for the Amiga
is the best, what I ever get in my Hands. All the Pieces and Parts
(beginning with the very expensive Documentation und NOT ending
with the very usefull Online-Help) making this a Must for every
serious Programmer/Developer. Nevertheless, a "thank you very much"
to the Amigos of the SAS-Institute (especially Doug, Jamie and Steve,
of course ;-)
m.f.G. -Friedhelm- or -MAC-
-- THE ANSWER V2.03
Charles Wuethrich
Doug Walker <wal...@chang.unx.sas.com> wrote:
>
>I regret to announce that as of December 23, 1994, SAS Institute Inc.
>will terminate technical support for the SAS/C Development System
>for AmigaDOS. Development has already been suspended, and there are
>no plans to resume it.
What a pity. It's a great tool. Things *do* look dim, then.
>It's been a great eight years. For me, it's the end of an era.
>I wish the remaining Amiga developers the best of luck.
Thanks. Given the current state of things, I'm not sure there will
be many left by the end of the year. Time to start porting things,
huh?
Good luck to you too
Charles Wuethrich
James Cooper
In article <SHAFFER.94...@stribor.phyast.pitt.edu>, sha...@stribor.phyast.pitt.edu (C. David Shaffer) writes:
>Would someone like to elaborate just a tiny bit on this bug? I
>haven't heard of this. What's the problem and when do we have
>to worry?
Umm... what bug?
The passing a 4 byte structure bug? You should only see that when
calling a #pragma function in a shared library (which right now, only
seems to affect socket.library from the AS225r2 package).
If you're talking about a *different* bug, please give details...
--
---------------
Jim Cooper
(ja...@unx.sas.com) bix: jcooper
Any opinions expressed herein are mine (Mine, all mine! Ha, ha, ha!),
and not necessarily those of my employer.
Remember, "Euphemisms are for the differently brained."
Bill Kindel
> I regret to announce that as of December 23, 1994, SAS Institute Inc.
> will terminate technical support for the SAS/C Development System
> for AmigaDOS. Development has already been suspended, and there are
> no plans to resume it.
While I'm not surprised by the progression from suspending development to
termination of support, I must say that I *am* disappointed by the timing.
Just when we were starting to have hope for the rebirth of the Amiga, the
primary tool for its software development became unsupported.
Surely, SAS will honor warranty commitments on all sales prior to their
withdrawl of SAS/C from the marketplace (which they haven't yet done). If
not, they may legally be required to stamp "AS IS" on their entire stock
(and every sales invoice) and sell the remaining stock at "salvage" prices.
I think it would be reasonable for SAS to follow the lead of Soft-Logik in
providing free support for 90 days and charging a fee thereafter. At this
point, SAS is about to "write down" their investment in the Amiga version,
so such support could well generate a healthy cash flow without having to
recover the (sunk) costs of development.
There's a "disconnect" between Doug's thumbnail sketch of the economics of
SAS/C and the realities of the marketplace. I don't dispute SAS' point of
view, but the fact is that pricing a compiler at $250/user limits the
market to product developers and a few well-heeled hackers. The Amiga
marketplace has alwas been price-conscious, and "recreational programmers"
(like me) are unlikely to make that kind of an investment. SAS' June price
drop was MOST welcome, but most of us were hesitant to buy much of ANYTHING
until things became clearer.
The supported DICE compiler is $100, though it doesn't do C++. GNU C/C++
is free (but supported only through new releases) and is available on
virtually all platforms, though the only practical way to distribute it
seems to be on CD-ROM. Serious developers will now have to consider these
(will somebody PLEASE get gdb to work with AmigaDOS? 8^) as they move from
the Amiga's de-facto standard C compiler.
I would hope that SAS would find a way to continue support of SAS/C into
1995, even if on a subscription basis. (Please don't repeat the mistake
of pricing such support so that only the elite can afford it.)
===========================================================================
Bill Kindel Voice: 617/621-7395 | Happy, productive Amiga owner.
Research Institute FAX: 617/621-8696 | 90M MS-DOS users CAN be wrong!
Open Software Foundation kin...@osf.org | (They just don't know better.)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Standard Disclaimer: The opinions expressed above are my own and do
not necessarily represent those of my employer.
===========================================================================
Christoph Feck IRZ
> Would someone like to elaborate just a tiny bit on this bug? I
> haven't heard of this. What's the problem and when do we have
> to worry?
It is not really a bug, but a misconception. When you use
#pragmas, the library base can be any expression, and this
expression is evaluated when needed, not once at declaration.
So you can write:
#define IntuitionBase myclassdata->cd_IntuiBase
and all calls to Intuition are made with the library base
stored in a structure called 'myclassdata'.
But this scheme fails for the built-in LVO calls to utility
library (when you select the UtilLib option), or the math
libraries. It will always use a global variable.
The workaround is to use the library calls directly. For
math functions, I write such things as:
x = SPDiv(SPFlt(i), SPMul(y, z));
instead of just x = (y * z) / i;
Well, at least there IS a workaround :)
The only time to worry about this is when you need the
library bases local to a function (e.g. in a call-back
hook), which doesn't run in the same task context as your
program.
3k// Christoph Feck, TowerSystems - Custom Class Design
\X/ Amiga - It was a Way of Life.
Mike Dijkema
>Unfortunately, no. The compiler source is a "trade secret" and will
>be treated as such. There is no way to release code into the public
>domain on one system and retain copyright for another system. Once
>code is PD, it's PD, and it can be used for any purpose.
But then the SAS-C source code has a price. What would be the amount that
Amiga would have to pay to get the source and the rights for the Amiga part of
the compiler? I guess that source code is filled with #if AMIGA ... #if
MAINFRAME ... etc.. So it would be fairly easy to extract the only amiga
parts.
______________________________________________________________________
/// How boring
"No that is WORF madam, not WOOF. It is WORF." \\\ /// would my
\\\/// life be whithout
EMail:m.di...@rand.rug.nl \XX/ my Amiga
______________________________________________________________________
Dennis Lee Bieber
<deleted>
>expect too much. We have also created a new patch release
>(mostly on our own time) and will be releasing that before the
>end of the year.
No chance that patch will include Templates and Exceptions?
<deleted>
--
> ================================================================== <
> This | Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber KD6MOG <
> Space |------------------------------------ <
> Under | wulf...@netcom.com <
> Construction | D.Bi...@GEnie.GEIS.com <
> ================================================================== <
Lars Hecking
(will somebody PLEASE get gdb to work with AmigaDOS? 8^) as they move from
As soon as somebody adds ptrace() to ixemul.library ...
C. David Shaffer
Something related to library bases and the math library. I seem to
recall that someone from SAS replied that to fix the problem would
require moving something from sc2.library to sc1.library. Anyway,
hell if I know.
David Shaffer
Pelle Claesson
In a message of 21 Sep 94 you wrote to All:
KD> learn on. Let them know how good things *could* be right from the start,
KD> then they will not put up with second best. This is, of course, IMHO.
But a lot of people share those opinions with you.
/ *Pelle* *Claesson* (PGP public key available)
Ralf
>will terminate technical support for the SAS/C Development System
>for AmigaDOS. Development has already been suspended, and there are
>no plans to resume it.
>The Institute plans continue selling the Amiga product until our stock
>is gone (and we have plenty right now), but we will make sure all
>purchasers realize that technical support will soon be dropped. Given
>the price drops from last summer, I think the compiler is still a
>good deal if you plan to develop code on the Amiga.
Surely the best approach would be to see if anyone would be willing
to licence SAS/C, with you still keeping rights etc...... Although I intend
to purchase it next month, I consider it a great loss that the most widely
used and supremier compiler for the Amiga platform to just be discontinued
with no hope of it ever becoming available again.
Please, please, please try and find someone to licenc it off you...
____ ____ _ _ ____ __
_\__ \ _\__ \ / \ / \\__/ ///
/ \_/ /_ / \_/ \ / / / /___ Ranulf Doswell ///
\ __ \ \ __ \ \ \ _ \ \\_/ __ ///
\ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \__/ \ \ \ cst...@csv.warwick.ac.uk \\\///
\_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \______/ \_/ TEMPORARY ACCOUNT-CHANGES SOON \XX/
James Cooper
In article <wulfraedC...@netcom.com>, wulf...@netcom.com (Dennis Lee Bieber) writes:
>wal...@chang.unx.sas.com (Doug Walker) writes:
>
> <deleted>
>
>>expect too much. We have also created a new patch release
>>(mostly on our own time) and will be releasing that before the
>>end of the year.
>
> No chance that patch will include Templates and Exceptions?
None at all.
Adding Templates and Exceptions would require a *major* amount of work
to our C++, and the patch will be just that - a patch. Bug fixes. Only
one new feature, and that's in SE.
We *did* at least add error messages if you try to use the 'template' or
'exception' keywords in your code.
DAVID JAMES BROCKLEY
>> I regret to announce that as of December 23, 1994, SAS Institute Inc.
>> will terminate technical support for the SAS/C Development System
>> for AmigaDOS. Development has already been suspended, and there are
>> no plans to resume it.
Well, at least I don`t see the word permanently in there. I guess that if the
Amiga technology is bought out and goes back into production, and if the
market for the SAS C compiler picks up, we might see development started again?
I`m going to be buying the SAS C compiler next month anyway. Would there be
any way that you could license the Amiga only parts of the compiler out to
certain developers who would then develop it and distribute patches? The
developers would sign a NDA and SAS would keep full rights. The patches could
even go out a shareware with a portion of the profits going to SAS. I`d quite
happily spend some of my spare time to keep this great compiler alive.
Brock
Doug Walker
In article <m.dijkema.3...@rand.rug.nl>, m.di...@rand.rug.nl (Mike Dijkema) writes:
|> But then the SAS-C source code has a price. What would be the amount that
|> Amiga would have to pay to get the source and the rights for the Amiga part of
|> the compiler? I guess that source code is filled with #if AMIGA ... #if
|> MAINFRAME ... etc.. So it would be fairly easy to extract the only amiga
|> parts.
That kind of discussion would need to take place with SAS Institute's
management:
Richard Usanis
Director of Third-Party Relations
SAS Institute, Inc.
SAS Campus Drive
Cary, NC 27513
Doug Walker
In article <KINDEL.94S...@ghoti.osf.org>, kin...@osf.org (Bill Kindel) writes:
|> There's a "disconnect" between Doug's thumbnail sketch of the economics of
|> SAS/C and the realities of the marketplace. I don't dispute SAS' point of
|> view, but the fact is that pricing a compiler at $250/user limits the
|> market to product developers and a few well-heeled hackers. The Amiga
OK, I've heard this complaint that we're overcharging one time too
many. I'm dead tired of it.
Production cost (printing, duplication, etc) -> $25/package
Development/Support (amortized over # sold) -> $100/package
New Old
Retail price $200 $400
Distributor price $100 $200
Our profit -$25 $75
Now, it's true that a higher number of products sold == lower
amortized development cost, but a 50% increase in the number
sold still means that each product costs us $66 in amortized
development cost, meaning that our profit is only $9. A 100%
increase means that our profit is $25, which is enough to
interest upper management, but not really make them happy.
I was kind of hoping for that level of increase when we dropped
the price, but we didn't see it. You may argue that people were
skittish, but WHY they aren't buying matters less than the fact
that they aren't. If there ain't no water in the river, you
can't sail your boat, no matter whether it's a beaver dam upriver
or a 100-year drought.
Oh, by the way, our production costs for upgrades from 6.0 are $5
less than for full products, and of course the amortized development
costs are the same. Thus, we were about breaking even on upgrades
BEFORE the price dropped. This was OK since we could make money
on new sales and use upgrades to help pay for the development
costs, but when we dropped the retail, we had to drop the upgrade
price as well, so now we're losing money on upgrades.
There's a "disconnect" between your idea of what the Amiga marketplace
is like and reality. The market isn't there. We've sold less than
10,000 copies of SAS/C 6.50, counting both upgrades and new products.
Development and production costs were about $800,000 (estimated).
Considering that when you set a retail price, you only see 50% of the
money due to distributor pricing, WHAT PRICE WOULD YOU PICK?
And after you finish picking a price, tell me about the "realities of
the marketplace" again.
The answer is: YES, the product was priced too high for Amiga users.
YES, the product was priced too low to make a profit.
THEREFORE, the product was cancelled.
THAT'S the reality of the marketplace.
Quentin Barnes
In <CwDpw...@unx.sas.com> wal...@chang.unx.sas.com (Doug Walker) writes:
[...]
>I personally intend to continue reading the Amiga newsgroups, and
>I suspect Jim Cooper and Steve Krueger will also be around. However,
>we'll be reading and replying on our own time, so please don't
>expect too much. We have also created a new patch release
>(mostly on our own time) and will be releasing that before the
>end of the year.
[...]
Do you know (or willing to say) yet if you, Jim, and Steve will
be moving on to other projects within SAS or will you be looking
elsewhere?
> ***** / wal...@unx.sas.com
> *|_o_o|\\ Doug Walker< BIX, Portal: djwalker
> *|. o.| || \ CompuServe: 71165,2274
> | o |//
> ======
>Any opinions expressed are mine, not those of SAS Institute, Inc.
--
Quentin Barnes qba...@urbana.mcd.mot.com Speaking for myself.
Lauri Aalto
> Far better that the new (and as yet undecided) Amiga Inc. buys the compiler.
> They need it for OS development, and the amiga NEEDS a compiler if it wants
> to succeed.
And IMHO DICE isn't (yet) serious enough for professional usage. It's
enough for hobbyists though, but lacks some features required by
professional software developers... Let's just hope someone buys out the
SAS/C source, DICE gets more advanced and there will be some more
competition on the market forcing compiler developers to do their best for
an acceptable price - most 'normal' people (like me) are just too poor for
purchasing such a compiler. Currently I mainly use assembler for my
projects and the shareware DICE for some C experiements. A good friend of
mine has purchased the commercial DICE 3.0 and is rather satisfied with it
although it does need a lot of work.
--
(__) Lauri Aalto
w \@@/ ro...@spit.fipnet.fi
`/v/-e 2:228/507@fidonet
_/ \_ ...Intel inside--idiot outside...
Christer Gessler
Olaf Seibert
>In article <19940919....@lfs.loral.com>, sstanc...@lfs.loral.com (Scott Stanchfield) writes:
>|> Is there any chance that the source could be released into PD?
>
>be treated as such.
Funny you should mention trade secrets right now. Perhaps you read about
the "trade secret" rc4 algorithm of RSA Data Security, Inc. Some source
code was posted about a week ago that was claimed to be just that. Hmmm.
:)
-Olaf.
--
___ Olaf 'Rhialto' Seibert rhi...@mbfys.kun.nl Ooey-Gooey-Fluffy-Barfie
\X/ I'm not weird, I'm differently percepted. D787B44DFC896063 4CBB95A5BD1DAA96
Heinz Wrobel
: |> : I regret to announce that as of December 23, 1994, SAS Institute Inc.
Well, all the talk about the compiler. This decision does not mean that
you, Jim, or Steve need to find a new job then, I hope?!
--
Heinz Wrobel Edotronik GmbH: he...@edohwg.adsp.sub.org
Private Mail: he...@hwg.muc.de
My private FAX: +49 89 850 51 25, I prefer email
Jeff R Lindstrom
>|> amount that Amiga would have to pay to get the source and
>|> the rights for the Amiga part of the compiler? I guess that
>|> source code is filled with #if AMIGA ... #if MAINFRAME ...
>|> etc.. So it would be fairly easy to extract the only amiga
>|> parts.
>
>That kind of discussion would need to take place with SAS
>Institute's management:
>
> Richard Usanis
> Director of Third-Party Relations
> SAS Institute, Inc.
> SAS Campus Drive
> Cary, NC 27513
Seems to me that SAS could sub-contract the Amiga-specific
sections to some C whizzes who would do it for a royalty on
sales, plus the satisfaction of having the latest version of the
compiler available for development.
Regards,
Jeff Lindstrom
Technical Support
Prolific, Inc.
Philippe Brand
LH> (will somebody PLEASE get gdb to work with AmigaDOS? 8^) as they move
LH> from
LH> As soon as somebody adds ptrace() to ixemul.library ...
Well, work is being done now to BFD (Binary File Descriptor) so that's another
stone in the wall, but ptrace() is a major problem.
// Philippe Brand
\X/ P...@colombo.telesys-innov.fr
Lars Hecking
Lars Hecking writes:
LH> (will somebody PLEASE get gdb to work with AmigaDOS? 8^) as they
LH> move from
No, I did not write this ...
LH> As soon as somebody adds ptrace() to ixemul.library ...
... but this ;) Hint: gnus
Well, work is being done now to BFD (Binary File Descriptor) so that's
another stone in the wall, but ptrace() is a major problem.
// Philippe Brand
\X/ P...@colombo.telesys-innov.fr
--
Lars Hecking | National Microelectronics Research Centre
| Cork, Ireland
| lhec...@nmrc.ucc.ie
|-------------------------------------------
| "Victims are we all." -- Eric Draven
Doug Walker
In article <D94-CGE.94...@mumrik.nada.kth.se>, d94...@mumrik.nada.kth.se (Christer Gessler) writes:
|> What other platforms are SAS making compilers for?
We make commercial compilers for IBM MVS and CMS, and internal-use
compilers for HP700, Macintosh, Power Macintosh, and various Intel
chips and operating systems (Windows, NT, Chicago, 386, 486, Pentium,
etc.)
Doug Walker
In article <heinz...@hwg.muc.de>, he...@hwg.muc.de (Heinz Wrobel ) writes:
|> Doug Walker (wal...@chang.unx.sas.com) wrote:
|> : |> : I regret to announce that as of December 23, 1994, SAS Institute Inc.
|>
|> Well, all the talk about the compiler. This decision does not mean that
|> you, Jim, or Steve need to find a new job then, I hope?!
No, all three of us are still working at SAS Institute. We just have
different job responsibilities now.
James Cooper
In article <CwqL9...@unx.sas.com>, wal...@chang.unx.sas.com (Doug Walker) writes:
>In article <D94-CGE.94...@mumrik.nada.kth.se>, d94...@mumrik.nada.kth.se (Christer Gessler) writes:
>|> What other platforms are SAS making compilers for?
>
>We make commercial compilers for IBM MVS and CMS, and internal-use
>compilers for HP700, Macintosh, Power Macintosh, and various Intel
>chips and operating systems (Windows, NT, Chicago, 386, 486, Pentium,
>etc.)
HOWEVER, just to make certain...
The ONLY ones available outside SAS are the IBM MVS and CMS versions
(which are LEASED, not SOLD), and a cross-compiler which runs on various
UNIX platforms, and generates code for the IBM mainframes (which Doug
forgot to mention).
The various other versions (Mac, PowerMac, NT, etc.) are all IN-HOUSE
ONLY. They are NOT available to the public.
Christer Gessler
> ONLY. They are NOT available to the public.
Why make a compiler only for internal use?
(Forgive me if I'm ignorant. ;-))
James Cooper
In article <D94-CGE.94...@cyklop.nada.kth.se>, d94...@cyklop.nada.kth.se (Christer Gessler) writes:
>> The various other versions (Mac, PowerMac, NT, etc.) are all IN-HOUSE
>> ONLY. They are NOT available to the public.
>
>(Forgive me if I'm ignorant. ;-))
Because SAS Institute is not in the compiler writing business. SAS
makes a complete set of... let's see... what's the current buzzword...
Oh, yeah. "SAS System for Information Delivery." Executive Information
Systems, Order Entry, Graphics, Statistical Analysis, Clinical systems,
Pharmocology, etc., etc., etc.
How about some numbers:
- SAS Institute was recently ranked 6th largest independent
software developer (10th in 1993).
- SAS Systems are installed at over 26,000 sites in 119
countries.
- SAS employs approx 3,000 people worldwide.
- SAS posted a $420.3 million revenue in 1993, a growth of 15%
over the previous year, making the 17th consecutive year of
double-digit growth.
- SAS spends approx 34 percent of its revenue in R&D (most others
spend 20% or less).
Now, to put the compiler a little more in perspective:
- The Commercial compiler business at SAS accounts for less than
1% of SAS Institute's business.
- The Amiga compiler accounts for less than 1% of SAS's compiler
business.
So, why do we have compilers only for internal use? So we have complete
control of the product we use to create our other products...
Doug Walker
In article <D94-CGE.94...@cyklop.nada.kth.se>, d94...@cyklop.nada.kth.se (Christer Gessler) writes:
|> > The various other versions (Mac, PowerMac, NT, etc.) are all IN-HOUSE
|> > ONLY. They are NOT available to the public.
|>
|> Why make a compiler only for internal use?
|> (Forgive me if I'm ignorant. ;-))
|>
In order to handle custom extensions of the language, and in order
to provide better error-checking and portability checking than
the vendor's compiler.
Doug Walker
In article <CwqyH...@unx.sas.com>, ja...@cdevil.unx.sas.com (James Cooper) writes:
|> Now, to put the compiler a little more in perspective:
|>
|> - The Commercial compiler business at SAS accounts for less than
|> 1% of SAS Institute's business.
|>
|> - The Amiga compiler accounts for less than 1% of SAS's compiler
|> business.
Actually, that last figure should be more like 10% than 1%. The first
figure is accurate.
Roland - Hanson
: In article <D94-CGE.94...@cyklop.nada.kth.se>, d94...@cyklop.nada.kth.se (Christer Gessler) writes:
: |> > The various other versions (Mac, PowerMac, NT, etc.) are all IN-HOUSE
: |> > ONLY. They are NOT available to the public.
: |>
: |> Why make a compiler only for internal use?
: |> (Forgive me if I'm ignorant. ;-))
: |>
: In order to handle custom extensions of the language, and in order
: to provide better error-checking and portability checking than
: the vendor's compiler.
And you don't need to worry about your compiler vendor dropping the
product line and support!
Michael van Elst
> With revenue of $420 million (posted in another message), that
>works out to over $400,000 per year from sales of the Amiga C
>compiler.
> Geez... if you don't want it anymore, I think I can find some
>people who will take it off your hands and still be able to work
>with it.
If you believe that you can sell the compiler for 3 years unchanged
then this might be true.
Regards,
--
Michael van Elst
Internet: mle...@mpifr-bonn.mpg.de mle...@serpens.rhein.de
"A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."
Michael Schuldman
: >|> Now, to put the compiler a little more in perspective:
: >|>
: >|> - The Commercial compiler business at SAS accounts
: >|> for less than
: >|> 1% of SAS Institute's business.
: >|>
: >|> - The Amiga compiler accounts for less than 1% of
: >|> SAS's compiler business.
: >
: >Actually, that last figure should be more like 10% than 1%. The
: >first figure is accurate.
: With revenue of $420 million (posted in another message), that
: works out to over $400,000 per year from sales of the Amiga C
: compiler.
Think again. 10% (corrected by Walker) of 1% of $420,000,000.
Sligthly different I would say.
: Jeff Lindstrom
--
_ //
\X/ -- Michael Shuldman <mich...@ifi.uio.no>
Paul Kolenbrander
SAS's main source of income seems to be a superb statistical package.
Most likely written in C. Now how do you port a package if there is
no compiler for it? Simple, you write, cq. port one. :-)
Am I getting warm Doug?
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
| __ | Internet: pa...@serena.iaehv.nl |
| /_/ |/ |------------------------------------|
| /aul |\olenbrander | CBM adsp: pa...@ecl014.adsp.sub.org |
-----------------------------------------------------------
Eyvind Bernhardsen
[...]
> : >Actually, that last figure should be more like 10% than 1%. The
> : >first figure is accurate.
>
> : With revenue of $420 million (posted in another message), that
> : works out to over $400,000 per year from sales of the Amiga C
> : compiler.
>
> Think again. 10% (corrected by Walker) of 1% of $420,000,000.
> Sligthly different I would say.
OK. 1% of $420meg = $4.2meg. 10% of $4.2meg = $0.42meg = $420k.
$420,000 IS over $400,000... What are you trying to say?
--
// Eyvind Bernhardsen -- finger -l for PGP key -- eyv...@pvv.unit.no
\X/ This space unintentionally left blank. Stem JA 28. November!
Matt Pierce
Hmmm, 420,000,000 * 0.01 = 4,200,000
4,200,000 * 0.1 = 420,000
ANTHONY FRANCIS PRESTON
SUN and HP work.... The Amiga environment is 10 times better....
Robert Barton
Bernhardsen) writes:
> In article <369ju9$c...@baugi.ifi.uio.no> mich...@ifi.uio.no (Michael
>Schuldman) writes:
>
> > : With revenue of $420 million (posted in another message), that
> > : works out to over $400,000 per year from sales of the Amiga C
> > : compiler.
> >
> > Think again. 10% (corrected by Walker) of 1% of $420,000,000.
> > Sligthly different I would say.
>
> OK. 1% of $420meg = $4.2meg. 10% of $4.2meg = $0.42meg = $420k.
>
> $420,000 IS over $400,000... What are you trying to say?
He's saying they are "sligthly different", whatever that means.
-------------------------
rob...@cryo.cryogenic.com
Michael Rivers
JC> - The Commercial compiler business at SAS accounts for less than
JC> 1% of SAS Institute's business.
JC> - The Amiga compiler accounts for less than 10% of SAS's compiler
JC> business.
SAS must have been losing millions on the Amiga compiler, guess it could
very well have put them out of business, now I understand why they can't
support the Amiga.
JC> Jim Cooper
* Q-Blue v0.7 [NR] *
Jeff R Lindstrom
>|>
>|> - The Commercial compiler business at SAS accounts
>|> for less than
>|> 1% of SAS Institute's business.
>|>
>|> - The Amiga compiler accounts for less than 1% of
>|> SAS's compiler business.
>
>Actually, that last figure should be more like 10% than 1%. The
>first figure is accurate.
With revenue of $420 million (posted in another message), that
works out to over $400,000 per year from sales of the Amiga C
compiler.
Geez... if you don't want it anymore, I think I can find some
people who will take it off your hands and still be able to work
with it.
Regards,
Thomas Boerkel
In a message of 19-Sep-94 Doug Walker wrote:
DW> I regret to announce that as of December 23, 1994, SAS Institute Inc.
DW> will terminate technical support for the SAS/C Development System for
DW> AmigaDOS. Development has already been suspended, and there are no
DW> plans to resume it.
Is there ANY chance, that SAS will come back to the Amiga, if
Amiga gets a new owner and will be in production again?
DW> I personally intend to continue reading the Amiga newsgroups, and I
DW> suspect Jim Cooper and Steve Krueger will also be around. However,
DW> we'll be reading and replying on our own time, so please don't expect
DW> too much. We have also created a new patch release (mostly on our own
DW> time) and will be releasing that before the end of the year.
Thank you very much!
DW> The Institute plans continue selling the Amiga product until our stock
DW> is gone (and we have plenty right now), but we will make sure all
DW> purchasers realize that technical support will soon be dropped. Given
DW> the price drops from last summer, I think the compiler is still a good
DW> deal if you plan to develop code on the Amiga.
It is, really.
DW> It's been a great eight years. For me, it's the end of an era. I wish
DW> the remaining Amiga developers the best of luck. --
Thanks for a GREAT Amiga product and the best wishes to you, too.
Bye,
Thomas
Thomas Boerkel
In a message of 23-Sep-94 Christer Gessler wrote:
CG> What other platforms are SAS making compilers for?
Well, AFAIK, SAS` main business are not C-compiler, but
the SAS-language (which I learned a few weeks ago).
Bye,
Thomas
Eyvind Bernhardsen
What kind of a comment is that? SAS aren't into writing compilers for
charity, they want to make money. It's called capitalism. If they're
losing money on something, they stop doing it--is this a really tricky
concept or something?
Doug Walker
In article <paul...@serena.iaehv.nl>, pa...@serena.iaehv.nl (Paul Kolenbrander) writes:
|>
|> In article <D94-CGE.94...@cyklop.nada.kth.se> d94...@cyklop.nada.kth.se (Christer Gessler) writes:
|> > > The various other versions (Mac, PowerMac, NT, etc.) are all IN-HOUSE
|> > > ONLY. They are NOT available to the public.
|> >
|> > Why make a compiler only for internal use?
|> > (Forgive me if I'm ignorant. ;-))
|>
|> SAS's main source of income seems to be a superb statistical package.
|> Most likely written in C. Now how do you port a package if there is
|> no compiler for it? Simple, you write, cq. port one. :-)
|>
|> Am I getting warm Doug?
Pretty warm, but the SAS System is a lot more than just a statistical
package. It's a data entry/report generation/data access/statistical
analysis/operations research/graphing/etc/etc/etc/ system that
allows you to collect, process, and generate reports for all kinds
of data. Statistics are where we started, but the system is much
bigger than that now (in fact, S.A.S. used to stand for "Statistical
Analysis System", but we officially changed it to just "SAS" because
that was too limiting.)
Also, on all of the systems for which we have internal compilers,
there is a vendor-provided C compiler as well. We still use internal
compilers because
1. In some cases, we can generate better code than the vendor.
2. We can detect violations of ANSI or portability standards
that an individual compiler on an individual host won't.
(For example - use of "int" to hold values >64k on a host
with four-byte "int"s)
3. We can generate run-time checks for certain conditions that
will cause failures on another host, but don't fail on the
current host.
4. Our compilers run on HP700 workstations but generate code for
other systems, allowing us to use UNIX power to generate PC
or mainframe code, for example. (The Amiga V6 compiler was
generated cross from HP700's.)
5. We can generate customized code for certain applications that
allow us to implement the equivalent of a portable operating
system on top of the host's operating system. This code
handles things like automatically loading "appendages" (our
equivalent of shared libraries or DLLs), setting up near data
sections, etc.
Doug Walker
In article <123...@cup.portal.com>, Tony-P...@cup.portal.com (ANTHONY FRANCIS PRESTON) writes:
|> God, how I wish I had something like the SAS/C compiler and CPR for my
|> SUN and HP work.... The Amiga environment is 10 times better....
Write to SAS Institute marketing. CPR exists on both platforms, and
a UNIX equivalent of the Amiga compiler exists for the HP700. These
tools are internal-use only now because we don't believe there is
a sufficient market for them.
Actually, the CPR that exists on those platforms (as of this month) is
a generation beyond the Amiga version. It's much nicer, and is a
nearly complete rewrite.
Paul Kolenbrander
In article <123...@cup.portal.com> Prol...@cup.portal.com (Jeff R Lindstrom) writes:
> With revenue of $420 million (posted in another message), that
> works out to over $400,000 per year from sales of the Amiga C
> compiler.
>
> Geez... if you don't want it anymore, I think I can find some
> people who will take it off your hands and still be able to work
> with it.
Well, with the accepted price of a man-year being $100.000 it would
mean that development of the package may not take more than 4 manyears
per annum or they'd be losing money...
It's not that simple for a big company. A small one might get away with
it, but SAS is way to big...
Cya,
Doug Walker
Hmmm, so you're implying that because SAS Institute makes money on
other things, it's OK for them to lose money on the Amiga compiler?
What an interesting point of view. I suggest a career in economics.
Michael Schuldman
: : : With revenue of $420 million (posted in another message), that
: : : works out to over $400,000 per year from sales of the Amiga C
: : : compiler.
: : Think again. 10% (corrected by Walker) of 1% of $420,000,000.
: : Sligthly different I would say.
: Hmmm, 420,000,000 * 0.01 = 4,200,000
: 4,200,000 * 0.1 = 420,000
: works out to over $400,000 per year from sales of the Amiga C compiler.
*blush*
Eh.. I left my terminal without login out ? Or, someone posted a false
posting in my name ? Or, I goofed ? (Pick the third :-)
(Another valuable lesson of what can happen when you post without
thinking)
Joe Rumsey
: The supported DICE compiler is $100, though it doesn't do C++. GNU C/C++
: is free (but supported only through new releases) and is available on
: virtually all platforms, though the only practical way to distribute it
: seems to be on CD-ROM. Serious developers will now have to consider these
Nah, 14.4k modem is adequate. Ok, not everyone has access to ftp and
a high speed modem, but I suspect it's more common that CD-ROMs.
: (will somebody PLEASE get gdb to work with AmigaDOS? 8^) as they move from
: the Amiga's de-facto standard C compiler.
GDB is the biggest problem, yep. Other debuggers do work to some
extent(PowerVisor and Barfly). People are working on GDB(right,
people?)
Joe
Doug Walker
In article <123...@cup.portal.com>, Prol...@cup.portal.com (Jeff R Lindstrom) writes:
|> With revenue of $420 million (posted in another message), that
|> works out to over $400,000 per year from sales of the Amiga C
|> compiler.
|>
|> people who will take it off your hands and still be able to work
|> with it.
Remember our costs for a major release as well:
~2 developers full-time (~$200,000, incl salary, equipment, office, etc)
2 tech support people full-time (~$200,000)
1 technical writer, half-time (~$50,000)
~1 tester, half-time ($50,000)
~1 sales/warehouse person full time (~80,000)
production/shipping costs (~$300,000 for V6.50)
This buys you one major release in one calendar year. The above numbers
are very optimistic, since I don't count any time from the developers
working on portable code that gets ported to the Amiga (even if they
do some Amiga-specific work.)
Absolute, bare minimum would be three people working on the product -
one technical support and two developers/writers/testers - and progress
would be MUCH slower than what people are accustomed to. It would
probably take at least two years, thereby doubling technical support
costs, and wouldn't be anywhere near the quality or scope of the
current releases. To save production costs, you could start charging
extra for shipping and use cheaper materials to save perhaps $100k.
Or perhaps start leaving out documentation in order to decrease the
number of pages to be printed (that would go over big with the users
of the product). Or ship all documentation on disk only, and charge
extra for printed docs (good luck with the pirates.)
Heinz Wrobel
: works out to over $400,000 per year from sales of the Amiga C
: compiler.
: Geez... if you don't want it anymore, I think I can find some
: people who will take it off your hands and still be able to work
: with it.
Hmm. Revenue != business. While the business might be like 10% of the
1%, I am not sure that the profits were not more like 1% of 1%. Well,
I never understood anyway how they could afford to sell the 6.50
upgrades with newly printed manuals for ~$60. The price cuts as they
were done still feel like a strange management decision to me. I
baought it for the full 5.10 price at the time and I still don't
regret it at all.
: Jeff Lindstrom
: Technical Support
: Prolific, Inc.
--
Heinz Wrobel Edotronik GmbH: he...@edohwg.adsp.sub.org
Private Mail: he...@hwg.muc.de
My private FAX: +49 89 850 51 25, I prefer email
ANTHONY FRANCIS PRESTON
SAS/C for the Amiga and a longer time between releases versus the current
alternative. I wont argue the numbers posted(althought I hardly thing the
people mentioned in the list are all 100% Amiga related), the descision is
made. Nobody is happy with it.
Christian Stieber
> [Re: how much it costs to develop and market a release]
> I for one wouldn't mind keeping the higher prices if that meant
> continued support and development for the product, hell, comparing it
> to the other compilers available for Windows, various unixes etc, I'd
> take the SAS C compiler any day.
I second this, but unfortunately the Amiga market is a _lot_ smaller
than the IBM clone market. Even an extremely bad product sells more
copies in the clone market than a great product in the Amiga market.
Furthermore, most Amigas are found at home, not sitting in companies.
If you make software too expensive for that kind of market, people
will tend to pirate the product. There aren't hat many software
developers for the Amiga --- I believe that most Amigas are just
sitting around running games and, sometimes, a wordprocessor.
Of course, most of what I just said is what I _think_. I may be completely
wrong.
Christian
--
// Christian Stieber sti...@informatik.tu-muenchen.de
\// Certified Amiga Developer PGP public key available
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Life starts at '030, fun starts at '040, impotence starts at '86"
keyboard not connected -- press F1 to continue
The Skeleton
>Jonas Flygare (fl...@Krille.update.uu.se) wrote:
>
>> [Re: how much it costs to develop and market a release]
>
>> I for one wouldn't mind keeping the higher prices if that meant
>> continued support and development for the product, hell, comparing it
>> to the other compilers available for Windows, various unixes etc, I'd
>> take the SAS C compiler any day.
>
>I second this, but unfortunately the Amiga market is a _lot_ smaller
>than the IBM clone market. Even an extremely bad product sells more
>copies in the clone market than a great product in the Amiga market.
>Furthermore, most Amigas are found at home, not sitting in companies.
>If you make software too expensive for that kind of market, people
>will tend to pirate the product. There aren't hat many software
>developers for the Amiga --- I believe that most Amigas are just
>sitting around running games and, sometimes, a wordprocessor.
>
>wrong.
Yup I think you are, most Amigas are doing things that can't be done on ibm's
or mac's. And most people own Amiga's becoz ibm's and mac's are crap
computers. Nobody wants to wait around for the computer to process something,
don't want to just be stuck with one task at a time, don't want to have to buy
tons of ram just to boot the operating system, don 't want their computer
crashing every 5 minutes, don't want tons of hardware/software incompatiblity,
don't want to run patchs to make the computer work like it should in the first
place, don't want to spend time programming FIXER routines to patch/fix
problems with the computer that should never of been there. These are reasons
that People run AMigas. They don't want the problems listed above that exist
on mac's and ibm's. Don't try to tell me how good a mac or ibm is. I use all
3 formats every day and I know all 3 well. Amiga is by far the best of the 3
without a single doubt!
Dale L. Larson
In article <CwuBq...@unx.sas.com> wal...@chang.unx.sas.com (Doug Walker) writes:
current releases. To save production costs, you could start charging
> extra for shipping and use cheaper materials to save perhaps $100k.
> Or perhaps start leaving out documentation in order to decrease the
> number of pages to be printed (that would go over big with the users
> of the product). Or ship all documentation on disk only, and charge
> extra for printed docs (good luck with the pirates.)
Ship a CD only. Dirt cheap to produce, to warehouse and to ship.
If pirates matter, use an unlocking scheme like is used with some CDs that
distribute multiple apps or multiple fonts.
--
Dale L. Larson "That's the best part about being crazy.
Intangible Assets Manufacturing You see things no one else can see."
da...@iam.com -Dirk Pitt
for info about Dave Haynie's new video, mail in...@iam.com
Jonas Flygare
[Re: how much it costs to develop and market a release]
I for one wouldn't mind keeping the higher prices if that meant
continued support and development for the product, hell, comparing it
to the other compilers available for Windows, various unixes etc, I'd
take the SAS C compiler any day.
Sigh.
And do not give me any of the "I'm a student, I can't afford.."
either, I was a student, and did not have too much money, when I
ordered the compiler, and that was before SAS had special student
prices.. It just meant I had to find a part-time job, and save, for
quite a while. I still think it was worth the effort.
Sigh, again.
--
Safe PGP key fingerprint = A7 FA 4D 35 73 0E DB 65 69 D5 D4 E1 02 E6 91 E2
Unix PGP key fingerprint = 0D 22 64 4D 05 35 53 BA 83 56 7B 56 C6 61 D4 A7
DNA sequence fingerprint = 0E 21 45 FA 7A 11 34 FE ED DE AD BE EF 8F 10 71
DNA copyright 1962 - 1994 by Jonas Flygare, Copyright yours before IBM does.
Arno Eigenwillig
In article <CwqyH...@unx.sas.com>, James Cooper writes:
> Because SAS Institute is not in the compiler writing business. SAS
> makes a complete set of...
Anyway, despite identical names, SAS does not run airplanes, hotels,
or police squads. Wasn't there even a shoe brand "SAS"?
-- __
__/// Arno Eigenwillig <ar...@yaps.dinoco.de> \\ Stamp out patents
\XX/ MIME & any PGP V2 supported * V:+49-2225-5870 \\ for algorithms!
Common sense is the amount of prejudices acquired by the age of 18.
[Albert Einstein]
Christopher Naas
>Actually, the CPR that exists on those platforms (as of this month) is
>a generation beyond the Amiga version. It's much nicer, and is a
>nearly complete rewrite.
Will this version find its way in to the patch for 6.51?
What is better about this new version?
__ __
/_ /_ /\ Christopher Naas · Amiga Developer · Fusing the clear threat ·
__/__//_/ EMail: chri...@powertech.no · Amiga 4000/040, Emplant ·
Paul Kolenbrander
In article <1994Sep29.1...@iam.iam.com> da...@calvin.iam.com ("Dale L. Larson") writes:
> In article <CwuBq...@unx.sas.com> wal...@chang.unx.sas.com (Doug Walker) writes:
> Ship a CD only. Dirt cheap to produce, to warehouse and to ship.
>
> If pirates matter, use an unlocking scheme like is used with some CDs that
> distribute multiple apps or multiple fonts.
No way I'm going to wait until I get a note from a company unlocking my copy
of the program after I bought the CD and sent in the registration. Especially
not as it took U.S.Mail 32 days to mail some postcards from Florida to the
Netherlands. Very nice, buy a program and wait weeks before you can use it.
As bundling it with the CD would make it very easy on the pirates. If you
really want to see a flamewar about a weird way of copy-protecting, check the
OS/2 groups about the DeScribe WP. These want to time-expire all copies every
six months. And all non-US customers will have to pay $30.- extra to cover
the cost of sending those floppies outside the US. And when a floppy arrives
damaged or not at all you run the risk of yoru program expiring right when
you are against a deadline...
Just my $0.02. I don't think legal users of an application should suffer
because of copy-protection. Brilliance, although a very good program, did
not get purchased solely because of it being dongled. [Just try running
two dongled programs at the same time, it's a multitaksing machine,m isn't
it? :-)]
> da...@iam.com -Dirk Pitt
Michael Rivers
MR> very well have put them out of business, now I understand why they can't
MR> support the Amiga.
DW> Hmmm, so you're implying that because SAS Institute makes money on
DW> other things, it's OK for them to lose money on the Amiga compiler?
No. But if a company leaves it customers out in the cold, do you think
the customer will likely buy from that company again? Car companies lose money
on recalling/fixing/replacing vehicles, but if their customer is treated well
he/she will likely be a future customer again.
DW> What an interesting point of view.
I know :)
Jeff R Lindstrom
> > that works out to over $400,000 per year from sales of the
> > Amiga C compiler.
>
> > Geez... if you don't want it anymore, I think I can find
> > some people who will take it off your hands and still be
> > able to work with it.
>
> unchanged then this might be true.
No. I meant that I could find people to take over development
of the Amiga port of the compiler. I was not intending it to be
a static product, especially if the Amiga OS keeps changing.
Rostyk Lewyckyj
Is that close to the number of copies sold?
Christian Almgren
> No. But if a company leaves it customers out in the cold, do you think
> the customer will likely buy from that company again? Car companies lose money
> on recalling/fixing/replacing vehicles, but if their customer is treated well
> he/she will likely be a future customer again.
BUt car companies expects to sell a lot of cars. SAS have tried but we
did not buy the compiler (I did). So they did not make any money. I think
that the fact that SAS is discontinuing the compiler is terrible. But it is
also understandable.
--
-Christian Almgren Internet: d93...@nada.kth.se
Who am I? Why am I here? Forget the questions! Someone gimme another beer!
"Meatloaf"
Doug Walker
In article <1994Sep29.1...@iam.iam.com>, da...@calvin.iam.com ("Dale L. Larson") writes:
|>
|> In article <CwuBq...@unx.sas.com> wal...@chang.unx.sas.com (Doug Walker) writes:
|> current releases. To save production costs, you could start charging
|> > extra for shipping and use cheaper materials to save perhaps $100k.
|> > Or perhaps start leaving out documentation in order to decrease the
|> > number of pages to be printed (that would go over big with the users
|> > of the product). Or ship all documentation on disk only, and charge
|> > extra for printed docs (good luck with the pirates.)
|>
|> Ship a CD only. Dirt cheap to produce, to warehouse and to ship.
And those Amiga owners with no CD-ROM can at least listen to the
noise of the SAS/C Development System on their CD players.
Doug Walker
Believe me, all the job quantities I listed are 100% Amiga related,
to the best of my ability to seperate it, although not all of them
are actual people (some are composites). We have a sales staff of
some 10-15 people who all take calls, some of which are Amiga-related,
and a warehouse staff of about the same who ship things, including
Amiga products; I estimated that as one person for sales and
warehousing. I know exactly how much developer, tech support,
testing, and technical writing effort went in. I didn't list
portable work on GO, CPR, or C++ at all, and I probably should have
assigned a portion of that to Amiga costs.
I'm probably as unhappy with the decision as anyone, but it's the
only reasonable one.
Doug Walker
In article <36fvhv$10...@bigblue.oit.unc.edu>, urj...@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Rostyk Lewyckyj) writes:
|> $42,000 at $150/copy , thats about 2,800 copies of the compiler.
|> Is that close to the number of copies sold?
Remember, we've sold copies at many prices:
- Distributor price (50% of retail)
- Academic discount
- Competitive upgrade
- Previous version upgrades
- Subsidiary discounts on all of the above (SAS/Europe buys from
us at a substantial discount, and only the cash they pay
contributes to our sales/profit figures)
- The recent price drops affected all of the above
It's no use at all trying to figure out the number of copies sold
from the revenue generated.
ANTHONY FRANCIS PRESTON
I am definitely going to ask the people that do... I might even bring in
my Amiga to demo what I am talking about!
Ralph Schmidt
>|> Ship a CD only. Dirt cheap to produce, to warehouse and to ship.
>And those Amiga owners with no CD-ROM can at least listen to the
>noise of the SAS/C Development System on their CD players.
Could be quite entertaining for some techno fans:-B
--
Ralph Schmidt la...@uni-paderborn.de
University of Paderborn (Germany)
Christer Gessler
> portable work on GO, CPR, or C++
Isn't the C++ translator platform independent to a great extent?
Since it produces C code it can hardly be hardware dependent, so the programming
interface to the OS should be the only platform specific part?
--
< "Cynical" is what a perfectionist would call a realist. >
< Christer Gessler d94...@nada.kth.se >
< +46-8-753 65 52 Stockholm, Sweden >
Doug Walker
In article <1994Sep30.0...@powertech.no>, chri...@powertech.no (Christopher Naas) writes:
|> Doug Walker <wal...@chang.unx.sas.com> whispered:
|>
|> >Actually, the CPR that exists on those platforms (as of this month) is
|> >a generation beyond the Amiga version. It's much nicer, and is a
|> >nearly complete rewrite.
|>
|> Will this version find its way in to the patch for 6.51?
|> What is better about this new version?
It won't be in the last patch. Too much new stuff.
Keep in mind that the patch has very little new development
in it, mostly bug-fixes (and one or two nice LITTLE surprises).
Fred E. Hayes X4669 {sun53}
for CD-ROM distribution.
Having installed Visual C++ from a gizillion floppies on a
486, I can attest to how much easier it is to simply
insert a single CD-ROM.
BTW, I have an external CD-ROM player that allows me to
run CD-ROM based stuff on the PC or the Amiga.
Christian Stieber
> MR> SAS must have been losing millions on the Amiga compiler, guess it could
> MR> very well have put them out of business, now I understand why they can't
> MR> support the Amiga.
> DW> Hmmm, so you're implying that because SAS Institute makes money on
> DW> other things, it's OK for them to lose money on the Amiga compiler?
> No. But if a company leaves it customers out in the cold, do you think
> the customer will likely buy from that company again? Car companies lose money
> on recalling/fixing/replacing vehicles, but if their customer is treated well
> he/she will likely be a future customer again.
I don't think that SAS is worried about that. AFAIK, SAS makes really expensive
software that you don't buy/rent for your personal use at home. Okay, a
former Amiga user might be sitting in a company thinking about getting
SAS software, but I don't think that the SAS/C story will affect the
decision pro/contra SAS in any way.
Osma Ahvenlampi
>|> Ship a CD only. Dirt cheap to produce, to warehouse and to ship.
>
>And those Amiga owners with no CD-ROM can at least listen to the
>noise of the SAS/C Development System on their CD players.
At least mine just says E (for error) if given an ISO-9660 CD-ROM ;)
--
<A HREF="http://www.hut.fi/~oahvenla/">My home page</A>
DCAmiga
If the Amiga isn't going to be supported at all anymore, is there any chance
that the source code for any of the utilities could be released to the
public domain, SLINK for example - anything which is purely Amiga specific?
Andrew Dunbar - dca...@splat.paxnet.com.au
Jonas Flygare
The Amiga compiler certainly had to be more profitable than all of those
inhouse compilers.
As _compilers_ maybe, but do not forget that SAS uses their inhouse
compilers to generate revenue with their main product, and that the
compilers are needed for that.
Michael Rivers
D> chance
D> that the source code for any of the utilities could be released to the
D> public domain, SLINK for example - anything which is purely Amiga
D> specific?
D> Andrew Dunbar-...@splat.paxnet.com.au
might as well throw the whole thing into pd.
Doug Walker
In article <D94-CGE.94...@mumrik.nada.kth.se>, d94...@mumrik.nada.kth.se (Christer Gessler) writes:
|> > I didn't list
|> > portable work on GO, CPR, or C++
|>
|> Isn't the C++ translator platform independent to a great extent?
|> Since it produces C code it can hardly be hardware dependent, so the programming
|> interface to the OS should be the only platform specific part?
"portable" == "platform independent".
However, the OS interface is still a lot of work. We had to add
Amiga-specific keywords like __chip, __saveds, etc., we had to
modify the meaning of the __far and __near keywords (which differ
slightly from their meanings on PC and mainframe platforms), we
had to interface C++ with Amiga C registerized parameters, we had
to make the C++ compiler treat all .h files from INCLUDE: as
extern "C", we had to make the C++ compiler's behavior match that
of the C compiler on lots of little issues like preprocessor-only
output, error reporting/SCMSG interface, etc. If we had been able
to do another release, we would have had to implement GSTs, which
would be a lot of work...
So anyway, I counted all that work, but not the PORTABLE, PLATFORM-
INDEPENDENT work on C++ - i.e. implementing the actual parser and
C code generator.
Doug Walker
In article <1994Sep29.1...@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com>, mi...@umass.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Mike Danielsen) writes:
|> |> The various other versions (Mac, PowerMac, NT, etc.) are all IN-HOUSE
|> |> ONLY. They are NOT available to the public.
|> |>
|>
|>
|> The Amiga compiler certainly had to be more profitable than all of those
|> inhouse compilers.
What makes you say that? If the in-house compilers didn't improve
the bottom line, they would also be cancelled. Why would we go to
all the trouble to make a compiler otherwise?
It's true these compilers don't generate revenue directly, but the
groups internal to SAS Institute that use them DO generate revenue.
In some cases, it would be impossible to produce these products
without the internal compilers; in other cases, it's simply more
efficient. In addition, we save money that we don't have to pay
to the compiler vendors, which on some platforms is a big deal.
John C. Chu
Michael Rivers <mri...@tbag.tscs.com> wrote:
>No. But if a company leaves it customers out in the cold, do you think
>the customer will likely buy from that company again?
As an interesting side point, the reason they're dropping Amiga
support is because customers didn't buy the product in the first
place. So given that the customers weren't likely to buy in the first
place, I'm not sure how relevant the question of how likely they will
buy again is.
Personally, if, by some miracle, they resurrect the product and
release a new version, I'd definitely upgrade.
I'd like to thank the SAS guys for the great compiler, volunteering
their time on this newsgroup and for the last patch. It seems to be
almost too much to ask to ask for one last round of bug fixes
(especially as since the Amiga section must be in the process of being
shut down and people being reassigned as I write). The compiler is
worth every penny (and I think the user interface is great!)
Werther Pirani
(Paul Kolenbrander) writes:
> If you really want to see a flamewar about a weird way of
> copy-protecting, check the OS/2 groups about the DeScribe WP. These
> want to time-expire all copies every six months. And all non-US
> customers will have to pay $30.- extra to cover the cost of sending
> those floppies outside the US. And when a floppy arrives damaged or not
> at all you run the risk of yoru program expiring right when you are
> against a deadline...
If software houses, especially the likes of MicroSoft, would go as far
as to include time bombs or even trojan horses inside their programs to
keep users under their tight control I wouldn't be surprised! ;-)
> Just my $0.02. I don't think legal users of an application should suffer
> because of copy-protection. Brilliance, although a very good program, did
> not get purchased solely because of it being dongled. [Just try running
> two dongled programs at the same time, it's a multitaksing machine,m isn't
> it? :-)]
Is the same old story: there's nothing like a copy protection which won't
be cracked by a pirate if he really wants to. Copy protections are more
like a punishment to legitimate users and dongles are the worst and the
most detestable example.
Sincerely,
Werther 'Mircko' Pirani
--
e-mail: wer...@karunko.nervous.com
Fidonet: 2:335/602.12 (Mirko Pirani)
Amiganet: 39:102/1.12 (Mirko Pirani)
Quentin Barnes
Xref: courier.urbana.mcd.mot.com comp.sys.amiga.programmer:54144 comp.sys.amiga.applications:28612
In <CwqyH...@unx.sas.com> ja...@cdevil.unx.sas.com (James Cooper) writes:
>How about some numbers:
> - SAS Institute was recently ranked 6th largest independent
> software developer (10th in 1993).
What was ranked? Lines of code? Customer satisfaction? SEI level?
> - SAS Systems are installed at over 26,000 sites in 119
> countries.
> - SAS employs approx 3,000 people worldwide.
Wow! I didn't know your company did so much with so few.
> - SAS posted a $420.3 million revenue in 1993, a growth of 15%
> over the previous year, making the 17th consecutive year of
> double-digit growth.
> - SAS spends approx 34 percent of its revenue in R&D (most others
> spend 20% or less).
Wasn't SAS also ranked one of the 100 best U.S. companies to work for?
I think I saw that in U.S. News and World Report last year. Any more
info along that line?
>---------------
>Jim Cooper
>(ja...@unx.sas.com) bix: jcooper
>Any opinions expressed herein are mine (Mine, all mine! Ha, ha, ha!),
>and not necessarily those of my employer.
>Remember, "Euphemisms are for the differently brained."
--
Quentin Barnes qba...@urbana.mcd.mot.com Speaking for myself.
Doug Walker
In article <36q5jc$d...@courier.urbana.mcd.mot.com>, qba...@erie.urbana.mcd.mot.com (Quentin Barnes) writes:
|> -Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #21 (NOV)
|> Xref: courier.urbana.mcd.mot.com comp.sys.amiga.programmer:54144 comp.sys.amiga.applications:28612
|>
|> In <CwqyH...@unx.sas.com> ja...@cdevil.unx.sas.com (James Cooper) writes:
|>
|> >How about some numbers:
|>
|> > - SAS Institute was recently ranked 6th largest independent
|> > software developer (10th in 1993).
|>
|> What was ranked? Lines of code? Customer satisfaction? SEI level?
Revenue.
|> Wasn't SAS also ranked one of the 100 best U.S. companies to work for?
|> I think I saw that in U.S. News and World Report last year. Any more
|> info along that line?
Yes, it was. It also consistently places in Working Woman Magazine's
top ten places for working mothers, due to its aggressive on-site
day-care program.
(We get M&M's on Wednesdays, too 8^)
Neil Clark CS90
MUI and ixemul.library.... and saving up desparately for the $$$ for
the ram I will need.
Anyone thought about writing an MUI interface for gcc :-)
Neil.
Rad
>
>Remember our costs for a major release as well:
>
> ~2 developers full-time (~$200,000, incl salary, equipment, office, etc)
> 2 tech support people full-time (~$200,000)
> 1 technical writer, half-time (~$50,000)
> ~1 tester, half-time ($50,000)
> ~1 sales/warehouse person full time (~80,000)
> production/shipping costs (~$300,000 for V6.50)
>
>This buys you one major release in one calendar year. The above numbers
>are very optimistic, since I don't count any time from the developers
>working on portable code that gets ported to the Amiga (even if they
>do some Amiga-specific work.)
This is probably all true, but SAS also gets some minor benefits from the mass
market of their product. For example, how many of the bugs found in you're
other compilers where reported from the Amiga users? I suspect that the 1,000s
of Amiga users are likely to find a few bugs the "internal use" users wouldn't
have stumpled on so quickly. (Just food for thought.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Deken Graduate student in electrical engineering
PGP public key available Tennessee Technological University
Internet: rad...@gemini.tntech.edu Cookeville, TN, USA