CDTV and Kodak??
Joe Obrin
so, any idea when?
This seems to be a very popular feature on other CD type systems, including
CD-I. It looks like most people have just recently announced support.
-- Via DLG Pro v0.995
Paul Olson
The problem is that Philips signed some _very_ open agreements with Kodak and
other multimedia companies which are just killing the competition. You'll only
find the Philips machine able to read Kodak disks unless the agreements are
thrown out in U.S. courts as being too monopolistic.
__ Paul J. Olson - VAX Systems Manager & Resident Amiga Addict
C= /// Voice - 301/286-4246, 301725-5501
__ /// DECnet- DSTL86::OLSON
\\\/// Internet - ol...@dstl86.gsfc.nasa.gov
\XX/ Disclaimer: Statements in my messages are wholely my own.
AMIGA "[the universe originated] as a quantum fluctuation
of absolutely nothing." - Guth & Steinhardt
Harv R Laser
>The problem is that Philips signed some _very_ open agreements with Kodak and
>other multimedia companies which are just killing the competition. You'll onl
y
>find the Philips machine able to read Kodak disks unless the agreements are
>thrown out in U.S. courts as being too monopolistic.
>
> __ Paul J. Olson - VAX Systems Manager & Resident Amiga Addict
Huh? only the Phillips machine? Well that's odd 'cuz at COMDEX/Fall '92
in Vegas, both Atari and Apple were quite openly displaying their
machines (Falcon and Macs) accessing the images on Kodak Photo CD disks.
Commodore HAS shown CDTV working with Photo CD in the past at some
trade show... but at Vegas, nothing. I'm sure curious to learn as
to what the current status is concerning CBM and Kodak.
Harv
Marc N. Barrett
>Commodore HAS shown CDTV working with Photo CD in the past at some
>trade show... but at Vegas, nothing. I'm sure curious to learn as
>to what the current status is concerning CBM and Kodak.
Until an AGA CDTV becomes available, or until Commodore starts actively
supporting high-end Amigas with CD-ROM technologies, it will not matter
very much. The PhotoCD images are stored on the discs at exceedingly high
resolutions and in 24-bit TrueColor; I don't think people would be thrilled
at the results of scaling 10,000x10,000 images with 16,777,216 colors to
320x400 with 4096 colors. The HAM8 SuperHires mode would be perfect for
displaying PhotoCD images on an AGA CDTV or A4000 w/CD-ROM drive, but so far
Commodore has not developed either product.
>Harv
---
| Marc Barrett -MB- | email: bar...@iastate.edu
--------------------------------------------------
Steven Hurdle
wrote:
BNB> Until an AGA CDTV becomes available, or until Commodore starts
BNB> actively
BNB> supporting high-end Amigas with CD-ROM technologies, it will not
BNB> matter
BNB> very much. The PhotoCD images are stored on the discs at
BNB> exceedingly high
BNB> resolutions and in 24-bit TrueColor; I don't think people would be
BNB> thrilled
BNB> at the results of scaling 10,000x10,000 images with 16,777,216
BNB> colors to
BNB> 320x400 with 4096 colors. The HAM8 SuperHires mode would be perfect
BNB> for
BNB> displaying PhotoCD images on an AGA CDTV or A4000 w/CD-ROM drive,
BNB> but so far
BNB> Commodore has not developed either product.
Obviously, it would make the most sense if Commodore were to make Photo-CD
displayable through the AVM (DCTV) card for the CDTV, or through AGA were
that ever to become available in a CD-unit. Obviously the resolutions
would be in High-res too, which is fairly common on the CDTV anyway.
Also, your statement that "PhotoCD images are stored on the discs at
exceedingly high resolutions and in 24-bit TrueColor" is very misleading.
Each image is saved in a number of formats, of varying resolution and
quality, some being thumbnail sketches for catalogueing purposes, for
example. And the colour on the AVM card would MORE than suffice, as CD-I
outputs on a TV set which displays the same amount of colour as a DCTV/AVM
card so the effect is the same.
BNB> ---
BNB> | Marc Barrett -MB- | email: bar...@iastate.edu
BNB> --------------------------------------------------
-- Via DLG Pro v0.995
Steven Hurdle <==> The Swindler [public replies only please]
Writer of "Virtual Rumours", a rumour/news column in some club newsletters.
Marc N. Barrett
>In a message dated Sun 29 Nov 92 2:46, Bar...@iastate.edu (marc N. Barret
>wrote:
>
> BNB> Until an AGA CDTV becomes available, or until Commodore starts
> BNB> actively
> BNB> supporting high-end Amigas with CD-ROM technologies, it will not
> BNB> matter
> BNB> very much. The PhotoCD images are stored on the discs at
> BNB> exceedingly high
> BNB> resolutions and in 24-bit TrueColor; I don't think people would be
> BNB> thrilled
> BNB> at the results of scaling 10,000x10,000 images with 16,777,216
> BNB> colors to
> BNB> 320x400 with 4096 colors. The HAM8 SuperHires mode would be perfect
> BNB> for
> BNB> displaying PhotoCD images on an AGA CDTV or A4000 w/CD-ROM drive,
> BNB> but so far
> BNB> Commodore has not developed either product.
>
>Obviously, it would make the most sense if Commodore were to make Photo-CD
>displayable through the AVM (DCTV) card for the CDTV, or through AGA were
>that ever to become available in a CD-unit. Obviously the resolutions
>would be in High-res too, which is fairly common on the CDTV anyway.
Does the "AVM" card even exist? Even if it did, it would not be a very good
solution. DCTV has less than 1/4 the resolution of a CD-I and VIS players,
and less than 1/8 the resolution of the AGA SuperHiRes HAM8 mode. The adapted
DCTV card for the CDTV might have been an OK very-short-term solution had it
become available a year ago, but it's already too late for it. For the CDTV,
it's either AGA or nothing.
> Also, your statement that "PhotoCD images are stored on the discs at
>exceedingly high resolutions and in 24-bit TrueColor" is very misleading.
>Each image is saved in a number of formats, of varying resolution and
>quality, some being thumbnail sketches for catalogueing purposes, for
>example. And the colour on the AVM card would MORE than suffice, as CD-I
>outputs on a TV set which displays the same amount of colour as a DCTV/AVM
>card so the effect is the same.
The effect is not the same. CD-I uses the same DYUV color scheme as DCTV,
true, but at four times the resolution. So this AVM card would NOT suffice.
>Steven Hurdle <==> The Swindler [public replies only please]
>
>Writer of "Virtual Rumours", a rumour/news column in some club newsletters.
---
| Marc Barrett -MB- | email: bar...@iastate.edu
--------------------------------------------------
Paul Olson
It was the marketing agreement between Phillips and Kodak which caused C= to
stop displaying the Kodak disks in the CDTV. If you remember, at the trade
show where C= was displaying Kodak disks, Phillips stormed the C= booth and had
Kodak force C= to remove the disks. You haven't seen C= showing Kodak disks
since.
Perhaps the Phillips agreements only cover CD-I/CDTV type systems, whereas the
Atari and Apple people were just running the Kodak disk in an external CD-ROM
drive. I dunno, I wasn't there. Or perhaps Atari and Apple have signed
agreements with Phillips as well?
All I know is that I was told by a patent lawyer that the agreements Phillips
is writing are borderline monopolistic and hurting U.S. corporations.
__ Paul J. Olson - VAX Systems Manager & Resident Amiga Addict
Paula Lieberman
<28NOVE199...@dst.gsfc.nasa.gov> wrote words about Kodak-Philips
agreement regarding Photo CD. Except, Kodak is an Apple VAR and has been
showing Photo CD images off Photo CD discs on Apple CD-ROM drives, provides
full support for Photo CD including Kodak-labeled read/WRITE CD-ROM drives
with software that work with Macintoshes {price with software: $8000) to
write Photo CDs, and Kodak sells development software and does licensing
for BOTH Windows and Macintoshes as environments to read/write Photo CDs.
[in other words, if you have a Mac or Windows, and a CD-ROM drive, you have
access to images on Photo CD CDs. It seems to be only people with Amigas
and Ataris who are being #*$&^#I$ by the situation. -- support exists for
Suns, for example, also.
-- Via DLG Pro v0.992
Paul Olson
Someone from Commodore care to comment on this situation?
Marc N. Barrett
I think the situation would be different if Commodore showed that they
were serious about supporting the Amiga with CD-ROM technologies. But right
now, Commodore does not sell even one CD-ROM drives for the higher-end
Amigas that can display Photo CD images. The only CD-ROM drive that Commodore
sells is for the A500, which is limited to a 4096-color palette; and it is
clear that this CD-ROM drive is intended to allow the many, many people who
own A500s for games to play the games available for CDTV, and that this
CD-ROM drive is not intended for more professional purposes. With all of
this in mind, why should Kodak give Commodore the time of day? Commodore
has given every indication that they would not use any support given to them
by Kodak for displaying Photo CD's on Amigas with AGA chipsets.
David Culberson
> Does the "AVM" card even exist? Even if it did, it would not be a very good
> solution. DCTV has less than 1/4 the resolution of a CD-I and VIS players,
> and less than 1/8 the resolution of the AGA SuperHiRes HAM8 mode. The adapted
> DCTV card for the CDTV might have been an OK very-short-term solution had it
> become available a year ago, but it's already too late for it. For the CDTV,
> it's either AGA or nothing.
> The effect is not the same. CD-I uses the same DYUV color scheme as DCTV,
> true, but at four times the resolution. So this AVM card would NOT suffice.
Uhh, Mark? We are talking televisioon here. You won't get much more than
400 lines of resolution out of the common color television, if even that.
The DCTV does 320x400, more with overscan I believe. So there's very little
room for more resolution, no way could four times the resolution be placed
on the television unless you have one of those 800 line Sony's or something,
but that is not the standard. The AVM card has been out for some time, I
believe. (Correct me if I'm wrong, someone that knows about it.)
Why is it AGA or nothing for the CDTV? I think AGA should be put on all
machines, but if they just stuck something like the AVM card in all CDTV's,
the television-using consumers wouldn't notice the difference. I don't
think it will happen that way, I hope.
David
--
(- d...@dacami.cmhnet.org - cis.ohio-state.edu!n8emr!jcnpc!dacami!dac -)
(- David Culberson - Site available for BMS transactions! - DUUCP 1.16 -)
Michael van Elst
> I think the situation would be different if Commodore showed that they
>were serious about supporting the Amiga with CD-ROM technologies. But right
>now, Commodore does not sell even one CD-ROM drives for the higher-end
>Amigas that can display Photo CD images. The only CD-ROM drive that Commodore
Repeating something makes people learn something. In that case they learn how
annoying you can be.
Buying equipment from _one_ company might be interesting to companies and
institutions but most professionals and most home users have no problem to
buy equipment from third parties. Believe it.
>this in mind, why should Kodak give Commodore the time of day? Commodore
>has given every indication that they would not use any support given to them
>by Kodak for displaying Photo CD's on Amigas with AGA chipsets.
Sad to say that your conclusions have never been better...
Regards,
--
Michael van Elst
UUCP: universe!local-cluster!milky-way!sol!earth!uunet!unido!mpirbn!p554mve
Internet: p55...@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de
"A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."
Peter Sj|str|m
>In <ByLFx...@news.iastate.edu> bar...@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) writes:
>>this in mind, why should Kodak give Commodore the time of day? Commodore
>>has given every indication that they would not use any support given to them
>>by Kodak for displaying Photo CD's on Amigas with AGA chipsets.
>Sad to say that your conclusions have never been better...
You never heard about the show CBM *did* show CDTV running Photo-CD
discs? Philips actually had people go rip the Photo-CDs from the CDTV players
right in the CBM booth! It is not CBM's lack of will, it is Philips monopoly
threats and contracts. (see post in c.s.a.somewhere about it. a few days old)
/Peter
Marc N. Barrett
The question of how Apple and Atari have managed to be able to show
Photo CD discs on their systems has never been settled. If these companies
are able to do it because the Atari Falcon and Apple Macintosh systems are
not direct competitors with CD-I the way the CDTV is, then Commodore should
be able to get by in the same way by showing Photo CD discs on Amigas instead
of CDTVs. At any rate, it would be a bit hard for them to do that right now,
because Commodore does not have any CD-ROM drives for the models of the Amiga
that are best able to show Photo CD pictures.
> /Peter
jerry cullingford
>Commodore HAS shown CDTV working with Photo CD in the past at some
>trade show... but at Vegas, nothing. I'm sure curious to learn as
>to what the current status is concerning CBM and Kodak.
Well, I had a look at a Photo-CD developers licence agreement (for the
six or seven hundred pound kits), and it was interesting to see that
the wording appeared to specifically exclude things like CDTV and CD-I
(I think it was something like 'multimedia systems without a keyboard').
I suspect that may just be kodak protecting their photo-CD machines
against small developers though... They're supposed to have licensed
it for the CD-I machines, so it's possible CBM could too. But the
CD-I people might not like it..
--
+------------------------------------------------------------------+ |
| Jerry Cullingford #include <std.disclaimer> +44 442 230000 x3868| ,-|--
| j...@crosfield.co.uk (j...@cel.uucp) or j...@selune.demon.co.uk | \_|__
+-----(Work)---------------------------------(home)----------------+ \___/
Steven Hurdle
wrote:
BNB> I think the situation would be different if Commodore showed that
BNB> they
BNB> were serious about supporting the Amiga with CD-ROM technologies.
BNB> But right
BNB> now, Commodore does not sell even one CD-ROM drives for the higher-
BNB> end
BNB> Amigas that can display Photo CD images. The only CD-ROM drive that
BNB> Commodore
BNB> sells is for the A500, which is limited to a 4096-color palette; and
BNB> it is
BNB> clear that this CD-ROM drive is intended to allow the many, many
BNB> people who
BNB> own A500s for games to play the games available for CDTV, and that
BNB> this
BNB> CD-ROM drive is not intended for more professional purposes. With
BNB> all of
BNB> this in mind, why should Kodak give Commodore the time of day?
BNB> Commodore
BNB> has given every indication that they would not use any support given
BNB> to them
BNB> by Kodak for displaying Photo CD's on Amigas with AGA chipsets.
This argument is ridiculous and non-sensical. Do you think Kodak cares as
long as the licence money rolls in? It's in their interests to have as
many Kodak Photo-CD machines as is possible. More to the point, do you
think it bothered Kodak that Phillips at the time of adding Photo-CD
support was pushing CD-I as an entertainment machine? They long ago
stopped trying to push it as an "infotainment" multimedia box. Now that
they've failed to make it in the games arena as well, from all reports
Phillips is simply now pushing it as a Photo-CD display machine hoping that
later people will begin to exploit other features it has. But the point
remains that Phillips had already re-geared their marketing to make CD-I
into an entertainment machine by that point. And as a game machine, it's
sorely lacking. Granted that CD-I has great colour, as it's hard to go
wrong with a 24-bit palette, but it lacks even the barest of essentials in
so many ways. For one thing, the unit has NO internal sound/music
generation (as in: no sound chip). All sound, music, and speech MUST come
off the CD. This is fine from a storage stand-point, but this would make
RAM-intensive projects a living hell. Every click you hear when you select
an option, every shot or explosion in a game, as well as all music/voice,
must be grabbed off of the disc on demand or saved in RAM as digital audio
(which uses up RAM rather quickly). From a design standpoint, this strikes
me as being rather silly. Either you're wasting huge chunks of RAM, or
spending all your time accessing the disc. It certainly restricts what
else you're able to do concurrently with anything else.
BNB> ---
BNB> | Marc Barrett -MB- | email: bar...@iastate.edu
BNB> --------------------------------------------------
-- Via DLG Pro v0.995
Steven Hurdle <==> The Swindler [public replies only please]
Steven Hurdle
wrote:
DC> Uhh, Mark? We are talking televisioon here. You won't get much
DC> more than
DC> 400 lines of resolution out of the common color television, if even
DC> that.
DC> The DCTV does 320x400, more with overscan I believe. So there's very
DC> little
DC> room for more resolution, no way could four times the resolution be
DC> placed
DC> on the television unless you have one of those 800 line Sony's or
DC> something,
DC> but that is not the standard. The AVM card has been out for some
DC> time, I
DC> believe. (Correct me if I'm wrong, someone that knows about it.)
I don't know if it's already hit the streets in all parts of the world or
not, but it was officially announced in Canada, then later officially
announced at WOC Pasadena, and probably the European/Aus/NZ divisions have
gotten around to it by now. It either is or should be available very soon.
I don't think you meant it this way, but I think it's an important oint.
AVM has been around for quite some time, in its original form as DCTV.
This means that it has an established base of users and supporters, as well
as wares for it. Most importantly, you can use all the great DCTV
image-processing software with it.
DC> Why is it AGA or nothing for the CDTV? I think AGA should be put
DC> on all
DC> machines, but if they just stuck something like the AVM card in all
DC> CDTV's,
DC> the television-using consumers wouldn't notice the difference. I
DC> don't
DC> think it will happen that way, I hope.
Obviously AGA should go into future machines eventually, if for no reason
other than it doesn't cost a lot more to make an AGA ChipSet than to make
an ECS ChipSet. Right now CDTV has only taken off among computer
enthusiasts, but as prices of units continue to drop and CD-wares continue
to become more plentiful, possibly down the road consumer acceptance could
happen and it could become a major consumer product. If that happens then
AVM makes a lot of sense. As I see it, however, AVM makes sense just
because of the DCTV image processing capabilities. Also, adding AVM as
standard to units would replace the RF-modulator, which would make adding
the card a little less expensive. Though I don't like it, I'd live with
composite if there were AVM CD-wares to justify it. Between AGA and AVM,
all bases would be covered. Besides, the AVM card hopefully wouldn't add
more than a couple of hundred dollars, presuming it wouldn't come with the
DCTV-wares which, for some people, wouldn't be necessary.
DC> (- d...@dacami.cmhnet.org - cis.ohio-state.edu!n8emr!jcnpc!dacami!dac
DC> -)
DC> (- David Culberson - Site available for BMS transactions! - DUUCP
DC> 1.16 -)
Paul Olson
buying CD-I's from Philips and placing a Kodak label on them?
Mast RN
>Does anyone know if Kodak is making their own Photo-CD machine, or are they
>buying CD-I's from Philips and placing a Kodak label on them?
Both wrong... Philips is making the photo-cd machines for Kodak, which give
much better resolutions on tv-sets than CD-I's (CD-I resolution is ugly low)
Greetings,
Robert Mast
Michael van Elst
>of CDTVs. At any rate, it would be a bit hard for them to do that right now,
>because Commodore does not have any CD-ROM drives for the models of the Amiga
>that are best able to show Photo CD pictures.
It would be no problem. They just have to buy a standard CD-ROM that can
manage CD-XA.
MetaPope, Internet in a Day Tour.
>of CDTVs. At any rate, it would be a bit hard for them to do that right now,
>because Commodore does not have any CD-ROM drives for the models of the Amiga
>that are best able to show Photo CD pictures.
explain to me again, why cdtv doesn't function as a cd rom drive..
c.
>---
>| Marc Barrett -MB- | email: bar...@iastate.edu
>--------------------------------------------------
--
|V
|A
|------------------------| |T
|agent orange health club|------------------------------- |I
| lifetime member | csh...@crl.nmsu.edu is spamgod |C
|------P|----- |A
O| Silica Gell. Do Not Eat. Stays Crispy In Milk. --|N ------|
P| ----------------|vietnam theme park|
E| |------------------|
Tommy Petersson
: >>>>> On Wed, 2 Dec 1992 14:41:36 GMT, bar...@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) said:
:
: >of CDTVs. At any rate, it would be a bit hard for them to do that right now,
: >because Commodore does not have any CD-ROM drives for the models of the Amiga
: >that are best able to show Photo CD pictures.
:
: explain to me again, why cdtv doesn't function as a cd rom drive..
It does, by use of Parnet. The problem is, as was mentioned in an
earlier post, that it does a little to much and the base config doesn't
have a keyboard (doesn't fit into the licensing spec).
--
=============================================================================
Tommy Petersson to...@enea.se Enea Data AB, Sweden
=============================================================================
Bo Najdrovsky
:
: Does the "AVM" card even exist? Even if it did, it would not be a very good
: solution. DCTV has less than 1/4 the resolution of a CD-I and VIS players,
: and less than 1/8 the resolution of the AGA SuperHiRes HAM8 mode. The adapted
Who gives a sh*t how high the resolution is when 95% of the users will hook
it up to their fuzzy TV set that won't even handle 768x482 down to a pixel.
The fact is that the DCTV technology could add truecolor display and
animation technology to the unit.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Bo Najdrovsky b...@mndcrme.uoknor.edu b...@okcforum.uoknor.edu| // |
| | // |
| "I remember now, I remember how it started..." | \X/ AMIGA |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paula Lieberman
Tandy's "Sensation" was advertised on TV here; it's a mere $2000. That's
quite a ways above the $500 pricing point where significant consumer sales
volume is generated.