problems with Mr. Peake
Sjonnie
There is a discussion in alt.binaries.warez.amiga with Mr. Peake from
Amiga Inc. about complaints for copyright infringement he filed against
several people (including myself) who were posting old abandon-ware
games. I am a newbie in the Amiga newsgroups but it seems Mr. Peake has
been bulling people who post files in Amiga newsgroups for a long time
now.
I have written several messages to Mr. Peake but I get the feeling that
he just refuses to listen to me. Anyway, I am posting me latest reply to
Mr. Peake here so you know what is going on the newsgroup
alt.binaries.warez.amiga. Perhaps you can help me to make it clear to Mr.
Peake that we (Amiga fans) are not his enemy but potential customers.
Bye,
Sjonnie
Here is the latest message:
In article <47c5its0ths0tgpck...@4ax.com>, ga...@amiga.com
says...
> Anyone can complain about the posting of copyright software. No, we don't
> "own" it. Electronic Arts and others do. Would you prefer THEY come after
> you? You would like that even worse.
I am glad we cleared out this issue. So Amiga Inc. does NOT own the
copyright on these old games. But to my provider you wrote:
>Sirs:
>
>
>The following user is posting commercial and proprietary software to
>alt.binaries. warez.amiga
>
>
>This software is the commercial applications of some of our licensees.
>Please have this user cease and desist immediately or further actions
will
>be taken.
This means you have been LYING to my provider. I am very indignant about
you lying to my ISP calling me a pirate distributing software that is
owned by Amiga Inc when in fact you do not own these copyrights. I do not
take this matter lightly. If you ever pull a stunt like this again I will
sue you.
I will contact Electronic arts and the other publishers later this week
to get this copyright issue figured out once and for all. But if you
would take the time to check out the many abandon-ware websites you will
already see that the companies don't mind if you redistribute games that
were sold 10-15 years ago on a now obsolete platform.
> Developers who are coming back now to code for the AmigaOS 4.x and AmigaDe
> are the ones you are hurting. If they see rampant piracy, do you think they
> will come back? We are trying to re-establish the Amiga and transition
> users to a newer platform and piracy does not help us do that.
Mr. Peake, would you *please* take a look at the games I posted? These
are ALL games for the Amiga 500 platform. I am NOT posting new software
for the Amiga OS4.x platform. The stuff I post is at least ten years old.
There isn't a single company in the world who still uses the Amiga 500. I
am not hurting anyone by posting old games that cannot be purchased
anywhere anymore.
I make you a deal: I live in the Netherlands near Amsterdam. There are
over a hundred computer shops here. If you can direct me to one shop in
Amsterdam where I can legally buy games for the Amiga 500 (with Kickstart
1.3, one MB RAM memory and no harddisc) I will eat my computer mouse.
I am being sarcastic now but I wish you would try to understand that we
are not your enemy. We all love the Amiga. We are using an emulator to
still be able to use the old Amiga 500 platform on our PC's. We are
trying to keep the platform alive. If the software developers would take
a look at this newsgroup they would see that there are many people all
over the world who still believe in the Amiga concept. They would also
see that we are only exchanging very old games here. If, on the other
hand, they see an empty group they will most likely think that nobody is
interested in the Amiga concept anymore.
> > In stead of complaining that Amiga fans exchange old games and keep the
> >Amiga alive you could make a positive contribution here.
>
> I have. I have asked you guys to just simply email Electronic Arts and
> companies like that and ASK before you give away THEIR property.
Even though you can read on the many abandon-ware sites that it is OK to
post 10-15 year old games from an obsolete platform we will e-mail them.
If that will make you stop bulling everyone here than it is worth the
trouble.
Mr. Maverick wrote in his reply that you are the Marketing Director of
Amiga, Inc. I am sorry to say this but you are not doing a very good job.
Of all my questions you still have not answered one:
Are you willing to participate in a dialog with the newsgroup to work out
the copyright issues?
Right now you are acting very stubborn, you refuse to consider the
perspective of the Amiga fans here who want to keep working with the old
Amiga games on the PC. My impression of you is that you are thinking in
very rigid ideas. You believe that you are right and you refuse to think
about the viewpoints of other people. This might come as a shock to you
but you are not *always* right. People make mistakes. People learn from
mistakes. But you are simply refusing to open a dialog with us. You
simply repeat your arguments without responding to the things we say.
It's my opinion that you are behaving childish.
Since you are the Marketing Director of Amiga, Inc you must have
developed at least some basic social skills. Try to look at the situation
from the perspective of an Amiga 500 owner. Imagine you are me and you
still like playing old Amiga games, although you have a PC that is much
faster than your old Amiga. In this newsgroup you can contact other Amiga
owners all over the world to exchange thoughts, ideas and of course old
games. Now Mr. Peake comes along calling everyone a pirate and making
false accusations to ISP's about copyright infringements of Amiga Inc.
How would you respond in my position?
As the Marketing Director of Amiga, Inc you could use this newsgroup to
make a positive contribution to the Amiga cause. You could inform us here
about new products, new software and new hardware. You could post
information about future plans of Amiga Inc. You could explain about the
new features of the new Amiga OS, you could post post screenshots of this
OS. In short you could make a positive contribution to this group. If
*I* were the Marketing Director that is what I would do. This group is a
pool of potential customers. We are all Amiga fans. But in stead you are
only doing negative things. If fact I have never seen you post a positive
message about anything.
Many people have e-mailed me that it is useless arguing with you. I hope
they were mistaken and that you are willing to work WITH us in stead of
AGAINST us. Remember, we are your future customers. It would be foolish
to disappoint us.
Regards,
Sjonnie
towarzysz Vader
> This means you have been LYING to my provider. I am very indignant about
> you lying to my ISP calling me a pirate distributing software that is
Did the companies that own rights to the software you post allowed you
to do this? If not - you are pirate. And Gary is right here. If you were
allowed - simply say it and I'm sure Gary won't bother you again (if you
can prove it of course).
> I make you a deal: I live in the Netherlands near Amsterdam. There are
> over a hundred computer shops here. If you can direct me to one shop in
> Amsterdam where I can legally buy games for the Amiga 500 (with Kickstart
> 1.3, one MB RAM memory and no harddisc) I will eat my computer mouse.
I think that this is your problem. If you cannot get something because
of laziness of dealers (or any other reason) that is not that you can
steal it.
--
__ # towarzysz Vader # A12ooT 66MB
\\\ __ # de...@power-amiga.prv.pl # 6o3e/o6o
\\\/// # http://amiga.rzeszow.net # BVisionPPC
\XX/ # eXec - http://www.amiga.pl # AmigaOS 3.9
-----------------------------------------------------------
Manfred Bergmann
> Sjonnie wrote:
>> This means you have been LYING to my provider. I am very indignant about
>> you lying to my ISP calling me a pirate distributing software that is
>
> Did the companies that own rights to the software you post allowed you
> to do this? If not - you are pirate. And Gary is right here. If you were
> allowed - simply say it and I'm sure Gary won't bother you again (if you
> can prove it of course).
>
>> I make you a deal: I live in the Netherlands near Amsterdam. There are
>> over a hundred computer shops here. If you can direct me to one shop in
>> Amsterdam where I can legally buy games for the Amiga 500 (with Kickstart
>> 1.3, one MB RAM memory and no harddisc) I will eat my computer mouse.
>
> I think that this is your problem. If you cannot get something because
> of laziness of dealers (or any other reason) that is not that you can
> steal it.
>
I cannot imagine, that the companies care about someone, who posts old
Amiga500 games in a newsgroup.
So, be cool...
On the other hand. Guys like the ones of Back2Roots, who are
dealing with the game companies, so that they can provide the good old games
on their website. Hmm, what i mean is, this is a unfait thing...
But i think you can't call him (them) a pirate, only because he (or they)
post 10-15 year old games...
cya,
Manfred
Sjonnie
de...@poczta.nospam.onet.pl says...
> Sjonnie wrote:
> > This means you have been LYING to my provider. I am very indignant about
> > you lying to my ISP calling me a pirate distributing software that is
>
> Did the companies that own rights to the software you post allowed you
> to do this? If not - you are pirate. And Gary is right here. If you were
> allowed - simply say it and I'm sure Gary won't bother you again (if you
> can prove it of course).
The stuff I posted comes mainly from websites with old abandon-ware. Mr.
Peake wrote a complaint to my provider claiming I was infringing on the
copyright of Amiga Inc. This was a lie because Amiga Inc. does NOT own
the rights of these games. The publishers do and according to the FAQ of
the abandon-ware website they gave permission to freely distribute the
10-15 year old games from an now obsolete platform. However, since Mr.
Peake seems determined to destroy the concept of abandon-ware I am going
to contact these publishers myself in order to verify that their 10-15
year old Amiga games are indeed abandon-ware.
>
> > I make you a deal: I live in the Netherlands near Amsterdam. There are
> > over a hundred computer shops here. If you can direct me to one shop in
> > Amsterdam where I can legally buy games for the Amiga 500 (with Kickstart
> > 1.3, one MB RAM memory and no harddisc) I will eat my computer mouse.
>
> I think that this is your problem. If you cannot get something because
> of laziness of dealers (or any other reason) that is not that you can
> steal it.
>
>
I disagree with you that you call it "stealing". Most old Amiga games are
now abandon-ware which means it can be distributed freely. As far as I
know there is not a single computer shop in Amsterdam (I live near this
city) where Amiga 500 games are sold. To my knowledge there isn't even a
single company in the world that still sells Amiga 500 games. I am trying
to keep the Amiga 500 platform alive for nostalgic reasons. The
alternative is that we all forget about this magnificent computer and
than the Amiga will truly be dead.
Regards,
Sjonnie
Erik Trulsson
> towarzysz Vader wrote:
>> Sjonnie wrote:
>>> This means you have been LYING to my provider. I am very indignant about
>>> you lying to my ISP calling me a pirate distributing software that is
>>
>> Did the companies that own rights to the software you post allowed you
>> to do this? If not - you are pirate. And Gary is right here. If you were
>> allowed - simply say it and I'm sure Gary won't bother you again (if you
>> can prove it of course).
>>
>>> I make you a deal: I live in the Netherlands near Amsterdam. There are
>>> over a hundred computer shops here. If you can direct me to one shop in
>>> Amsterdam where I can legally buy games for the Amiga 500 (with Kickstart
>>> 1.3, one MB RAM memory and no harddisc) I will eat my computer mouse.
>>
>> I think that this is your problem. If you cannot get something because
>> of laziness of dealers (or any other reason) that is not that you can
>> steal it.
>>
> I cannot imagine, that the companies care about someone, who posts old
> Amiga500 games in a newsgroup.
Maybe not, but it is still illegal.
> So, be cool...
> On the other hand. Guys like the ones of Back2Roots, who are
> dealing with the game companies, so that they can provide the good old games
> on their website. Hmm, what i mean is, this is a unfait thing...
> But i think you can't call him (them) a pirate, only because he (or they)
> post 10-15 year old games...
You think wrong. If you distribute copyrighted software without
permission from the copyright holder then you are a pirate. It is as
simple as that. The age of the games and if somebody cares does not
matter.
> cya,
> Manfred
>
--
<Insert your favourite quote here.>
Erik Trulsson
ertr...@student.uu.se
th...@math.tu-berlin.de
> I disagree with you that you call it "stealing". Most old Amiga games are
> now abandon-ware which means it can be distributed freely.
This is a very interesting conclusion... and in fact not true. Most
likely, the companies wouldn't care about, and would even grant you the
right to re-distribute the games, but just because they are no longer sold
doesn't make redistribution legal. There's something like a copyright law,
you know?
So long,
Thomas
______________don't_cut_here,_it_could_damage_your_terminal____________________
_______ _____ _____
/ / / / / / / EMAIL: th...@einstein.math.tu-berlin.de
/ /____/ / / /____/ http://www.math.tu-berlin.de/~thor/thor/index.html
/ / / / / / \ PGP available on request, finger print:
/ / / /____/ / / 11 FC 46 B0 7F 42 43 AC 38 A4 78 9A 24 BC 77 BE
_______________________________________________________________________________
Luca Diana
>You think wrong. If you distribute copyrighted software without
>permission from the copyright holder then you are a pirate. It is as
>simple as that. The age of the games and if somebody cares does not
>matter.
I don't want to take anybody's side, but I hope you don't have a
single unregistered or pirated SW in your computer (any platform),
copy of a music CD, tape, videotape, etc.
Luca
Eelke Blok
"Erik Trulsson" <ertr...@student.uu.se> wrote in message
news:3b24f...@nowhere.special...
> You think wrong. If you distribute copyrighted software without
> permission from the copyright holder then you are a pirate. It is as
> simple as that. The age of the games and if somebody cares does not
> matter.
Ever heard of something called the letter and the spirit of the law (not
sure whether that is the proper translation, but I'm sure you know what I
mean)? This is one of those times when you need to be able to seperate the
two.
Cheers,
Eelke
Chris Young
in a bottle and sent it out to comp.sys.amiga.misc...
I'll start by saying that I'm on Gary's side here. There are some
holes in your argument that I've pointed out below:
> >This software is the commercial applications of some of our licensees.
>
> This means you have been LYING to my provider. I am very indignant about
> you lying to my ISP calling me a pirate distributing software that is
> owned by Amiga Inc when in fact you do not own these copyrights.
Gary said they were "commercial applications of some of our
licensees.". This means that Amiga has a connection to the
publisher/developer. It does NOT mean Amiga owns the copyrights.
> I will contact Electronic arts and the other publishers later this
week
> to get this copyright issue figured out once and for all.
You should do that *first*.
> But if you
> would take the time to check out the many abandon-ware websites you will
> already see that the companies don't mind if you redistribute games that
> were sold 10-15 years ago on a now obsolete platform.
There is nothing legal about Abandonware. If you got your information
from a legal Amiga download site, where they have got permission from
that particular publisher, then maybe your argument holds up. However,
you should still ASK FIRST, and keep hold of the information that
proves you are allowed to distribute it.
> Mr. Peake, would you *please* take a look at the games I posted? These
> are ALL games for the Amiga 500 platform. I am NOT posting new software
> for the Amiga OS4.x platform.
You would have a hard job to. Having said that, it is backwards
compatible with what you posted.
> The stuff I post is at least ten years old.
> There isn't a single company in the world who still uses the Amiga
> 500. I
> am not hurting anyone by posting old games that cannot be purchased
> anywhere anymore.
The software is still under copyright. If the company wants to re-use
the characters in the game, then it is better for them to not allow
free distribution of the game, as it could compromise the copyright on
the character.
Chris
--
Unsatisfactory Software - "because it is"
http://www.unsatisfactory.freeserve.co.uk
ICQ:28784166
Georg Steger
just have to give them "some" money, but also something
else, because Gateway did not sell/give away really everything.
Amiga Inc. going after certain sites has to do with this.
--
Georg Steger
Aram Iskenderian
wrote:
Hey dumbass, you posted Kickstart ROMS and others posted also Workbench
disks what would you expect Gary to do? Applaud you spreading their
property?
It is really funny that you complain about someone trying to protect his
assets.
If were Gary, not only I will complain to your ISP but will take it a
bit more high, ever seen what happens to people who Microsoft and Apple
go after for posting their software?
Get a clue.
--
Aram Iskenderian.
The email address is not valid.
To reply by email, look in the headers.
Rick Jones
>
> Perhaps you can help me to make it clear to Mr.
> Peake that we (Amiga fans) are not his enemy but potential customers.
You are the enemy. You and others like you. Contrary to the rest of
your posting, which I have snipped here, the age and availability of a
piece of software, just like the age and availability of a song
recording or a film video, has no bearing on the state of the copyright
of that software. To post, copy, trade, sell, etc. that software is
WRONG, and the people who do so without permission are EVIL.
Thank you for listening.
--
Rick Jones
Remove the Extra Dot to e-mail me
The only good pirate is a dead pirate, or at least one whose hands have
been amputated.
bassdude
> Hi fellow Amiga fans!
>
> There is a discussion in alt.binaries.warez.amiga with Mr. Peake from
> Amiga Inc. about complaints for copyright infringement he filed against
<Snip>
> Here is the latest message:
>
> In article <47c5its0ths0tgpck...@4ax.com>, ga...@amiga.com
> says...
>
> > Anyone can complain about the posting of copyright software. No, we don't
> > "own" it. Electronic Arts and others do. Would you prefer THEY come after
> > you? You would like that even worse.
>
> I am glad we cleared out this issue. So Amiga Inc. does NOT own the
> copyright on these old games. But to my provider you wrote:
>
> >Sirs:
> >
> >
> >The following user is posting commercial and proprietary software to
> >alt.binaries. warez.amiga
> >
> >
> >This software is the commercial applications of some of our licensees.
> >Please have this user cease and desist immediately or further actions
> will
> >be taken.
>
> This means you have been LYING to my provider. I am very indignant about
> you lying to my ISP calling me a pirate distributing software that is
> owned by Amiga Inc when in fact you do not own these copyrights. I do not
> take this matter lightly. If you ever pull a stunt like this again I will
> sue you.
The way I read this is that he is suggesting that you are infringing
3rd party copyright, i.e. "licensees" of Amiga Inc. So I wouldn't say
he is lying.
Stuart.
RaYzor
>--- SNIP ---<
> You are the enemy. You and others like you. Contrary to the rest of
> your posting, which I have snipped here, the age and availability of a
> piece of software, just like the age and availability of a song
> recording or a film video, has no bearing on the state of the copyright
> of that software. To post, copy, trade, sell, etc. that software is
> WRONG, and the people who do so without permission are EVIL.
> Thank you for listening.
Heh .. nonononono no no no no no....
Kaientai is EVIL!!!
RaYzor
Kirk Strauser
At 2001-06-12T00:33:21Z, Rick Jones <rick...@extra.lanset.com> writes:
> To post, copy, trade, sell, etc. that software is WRONG, and the people
> who do so without permission are EVIL. Thank you for listening.
Will I agree with 99% of what you've said, I would only go along with
"trade, etc, etc." if you are referring to unauthorized copies of the
software. Personally, regardless of what license comes with a piece of
software, if I paid money for it, it is mine to do with as I please (short
of distributing copies of it). Just as with a book, CD, videotape, or DVD,
I take no moral issue whatsoever with users trading their
legitimately-obtained copies, or selling them, or using them for birdcage
liners. Contrary to the SPA's position, I'm a firm believer in the "first
sale" doctrine, which means that the publisher's right to tell me what to do
with their products (once again - other than copying!) up until I buy it.
--
Kirk Strauser
Neil Williams
On Monday June 11 2001, Luca Diana said to Erik Trulsson:
LD> I don't want to take anybody's side, but I hope you don't have a single
LD> unregistered or pirated SW in your computer (any platform), copy of a
LD> music CD, tape, videotape, etc.
Are you admitting to being a pirate there?
-.
Neil Williams, ICQ UINs: 18223711 & 116110052, 2:442/107
Dauber
>I disagree with you that you call it "stealing". Most old Amiga games are
>now abandon-ware which means it can be distributed freely. As far as I
>know there is not a single computer shop in Amsterdam (I live near this
>city) where Amiga 500 games are sold. To my knowledge there isn't even a
>single company in the world that still sells Amiga 500 games.
Go to www.softhut.com and go to the "Cybershopper Specials" -- you'll find a
small heap of Amiga 500 games, most [if not all] of which haven't ever been opened.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Dauber * ICQ: 28677921 | "The Beatles won't go, Mr. Epstein. Guitar
dau...@wallnet.mike-love.com | groups are on the way out. You have a good
Ocean Grove, New Jersey | record business in Liverpool -- why not
www.wallnet.com/~dauber | stick to that?" -- Dick Rowe, Decca Records
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Manfred Bergmann
> Hey dumbass, you posted Kickstart ROMS and others posted also Workbench
> disks what would you expect Gary to do? Applaud you spreading their
> property?
ROMs and Workbench is in my sight an other thing than old games.
>
> It is really funny that you complain about someone trying to protect his
> assets.
>
> If were Gary, not only I will complain to your ISP but will take it a
> bit more high, ever seen what happens to people who Microsoft and Apple
> go after for posting their software?
> Get a clue.
Apple provides old OS versions for free. (e.g. MacOS 7.5.5).
Currently i bought a Amiga600HD that comes with a preinstalled AmigaOS2.x.
I have got no Workbench Disks in case of crash or a format.
And i've got no chance to get them for free, because then i am a pirate?
cya,
Manfred
wurzel
Sjonnie wrote something about *"problems with Mr. Peake".*
> In article <47c5its0ths0tgpck...@4ax.com>, ga...@amiga.com
> says...
> > Anyone can complain about the posting of copyright software. No, we don't
> > "own" it. Electronic Arts and others do. Would you prefer THEY come after
> > you? You would like that even worse.
> I am glad we cleared out this issue. So Amiga Inc. does NOT own the
> copyright on these old games. But to my provider you wrote:
> >Sirs:
> >The following user is posting commercial and proprietary software to
> >alt.binaries. warez.amiga
> >This software is the commercial applications of some of our licensees.
> >Please have this user cease and desist immediately or further actions
> will
> >be taken.
> This means you have been LYING to my provider. I am very indignant about
> you lying to my ISP calling me a pirate distributing software that is
> owned by Amiga Inc when in fact you do not own these copyrights. I do not
> take this matter lightly. If you ever pull a stunt like this again I will
> sue you.
Actually, he was not lying to your provider, you have misunderstood what is
written. Gary says "This software is the commercial applications of some of our
licensees." This does not say, this software is owned by us.
That is your 1st mistake.
> I will contact Electronic arts and the other publishers later this week
> to get this copyright issue figured out once and for all. But if you
> would take the time to check out the many abandon-ware websites you will
> already see that the companies don't mind if you redistribute games that
> were sold 10-15 years ago on a now obsolete platform.
You should have done this BEFORE distributing the copyrighted software. Mistake
no. 2.
> > Developers who are coming back now to code for the AmigaOS 4.x and AmigaDe
> > are the ones you are hurting. If they see rampant piracy, do you think they
> > will come back? We are trying to re-establish the Amiga and transition
> > users to a newer platform and piracy does not help us do that.
> Mr. Peake, would you *please* take a look at the games I posted? These
> are ALL games for the Amiga 500 platform. I am NOT posting new software
> for the Amiga OS4.x platform. The stuff I post is at least ten years old.
> There isn't a single company in the world who still uses the Amiga 500. I
> am not hurting anyone by posting old games that cannot be purchased
> anywhere anymore.
That is your opinion, one which many pirates use. "No-one is using it any more,
I'm not hurting anyone by passing it on". Can you imagine Sony Records letting
you pass on some of it's older, copyrighted, records, without stopping you?
That's your third mistake.
> I make you a deal: I live in the Netherlands near Amsterdam. There are
> over a hundred computer shops here. If you can direct me to one shop in
> Amsterdam where I can legally buy games for the Amiga 500 (with Kickstart
> 1.3, one MB RAM memory and no harddisc) I will eat my computer mouse.
> I am being sarcastic now but I wish you would try to understand that we
> are not your enemy. We all love the Amiga. We are using an emulator to
> still be able to use the old Amiga 500 platform on our PC's. We are
> trying to keep the platform alive. If the software developers would take
> a look at this newsgroup they would see that there are many people all
> over the world who still believe in the Amiga concept. They would also
> see that we are only exchanging very old games here. If, on the other
> hand, they see an empty group they will most likely think that nobody is
> interested in the Amiga concept anymore.
Old, rehashed arguments form the pirate community.
> > > In stead of complaining that Amiga fans exchange old games and keep the
> > >Amiga alive you could make a positive contribution here.
> >
> > I have. I have asked you guys to just simply email Electronic Arts and
> > companies like that and ASK before you give away THEIR property.
> Even though you can read on the many abandon-ware sites that it is OK to
> post 10-15 year old games from an obsolete platform we will e-mail them.
> If that will make you stop bulling everyone here than it is worth the
> trouble.
So, because it is posted on a usenet site, it MUST be true? Another mistake in
your argument.
> Mr. Maverick wrote in his reply that you are the Marketing Director of
> Amiga, Inc. I am sorry to say this but you are not doing a very good job.
> Of all my questions you still have not answered one:
> Are you willing to participate in a dialog with the newsgroup to work out
> the copyright issues?
> Right now you are acting very stubborn, you refuse to consider the
> perspective of the Amiga fans here who want to keep working with the old
> Amiga games on the PC. My impression of you is that you are thinking in
> very rigid ideas. You believe that you are right and you refuse to think
> about the viewpoints of other people. This might come as a shock to you
> but you are not *always* right. People make mistakes. People learn from
> mistakes. But you are simply refusing to open a dialog with us. You
> simply repeat your arguments without responding to the things we say.
> It's my opinion that you are behaving childish.
That is your opinion, to which you are entitled. However, Gary is a well known
campaigner against pirate & warez sites, and has succeeded in closing many
down. Therefore, it would appear that the law does not share your opinion.
> Many people have e-mailed me that it is useless arguing with you. I hope
> they were mistaken and that you are willing to work WITH us in stead of
> AGAINST us. Remember, we are your future customers. It would be foolish
> to disappoint us.
You come across here as "holier than thou", just because you are 100% certain
you are right & Gary is wrong. In what way is Gary disappointing you? Because
he does not support you view that you are "entitled" to pass on copyrighted
software.
Even though the companies may not sell that software anymore, they do OWN the
copyright to it. You therefore MUST get permission yourself, befoe you can pass
it on. Just because you believe it to be abandonware and it has been posted
that it is abandonware, does not give YOU the right to pass it on. If you
exchange the phrase "pass it on" for piracy, you will understand Gary's
position.
So, rather than he having to work with YOU, it should be you working with HIM
to achieve what you want. Don't you think?
--
Russell Butler Amiga A1200, 50mhz '060, 96mb RAM
wur...@itl.net Member, Team AMIGA The Amiga lives on!
wur...@psilink.co.je Past President, Jersey Junior Chamber (JCI)
ICQ 35310100 HydroSpa Portable Bath Spas - www.Hydrospajersey.net
Keith Blakemore-Noble
something about "Re: problems with Mr. Peake"...
> Heh .. nonononono no no no no no....
>
> Kaientai is EVIL!!!
Iiiiiiiindeeeeeed!
towarzysz Vader
>
> In article <3B24BA7C...@poczta.nospam.onet.pl>,
> de...@poczta.nospam.onet.pl says...
> > Sjonnie wrote:
> > > This means you have been LYING to my provider. I am very indignant about
> > > you lying to my ISP calling me a pirate distributing software that is
> >
> > Did the companies that own rights to the software you post allowed you
> > to do this? If not - you are pirate. And Gary is right here. If you were
> > allowed - simply say it and I'm sure Gary won't bother you again (if you
> > can prove it of course).
>
> The stuff I posted comes mainly from websites with old abandon-ware. Mr.
> Peake wrote a complaint to my provider claiming I was infringing on the
> copyright of Amiga Inc.
No, no, no... you misread it. Gary wrote that their licensees own
rights. This is quite different yhan you think (license != licensee).
And in this point he was right. You didn't asked license owner about
posting so when you post this soft without permision it was illegal.
> This was a lie because Amiga Inc. does NOT own
> the rights of these games. The publishers do and according to the FAQ of
> the abandon-ware website they gave permission to freely distribute the
> 10-15 year old games from an now obsolete platform. However, since Mr.
> Peake seems determined to destroy the concept of abandon-ware I am going
> to contact these publishers myself in order to verify that their 10-15
> year old Amiga games are indeed abandon-ware.
You should do this first. I don't think Gary has something against
abandonware. check Back2Roots page. They have lots of Amiga games. Why
Amiga Inc. don't contact them and force to close the page? Because they
(B2R) have permision to put the software on their page. So everythink is
legal here.
> I disagree with you that you call it "stealing". Most old Amiga games are
> now abandon-ware
But why are they abandonware? Because of they are old? NO! Because of
the companies who owns rights allows to download the games freely. But
you cannot be sure which game is free and which is not? Some abandonware
pages have games which never been released as free. And they call it
abandon just because they are old. If anywhere is sentence saying about
copyright - everybody should ask if owner have something against giving
it free.
> which means it can be distributed freely. As far as I
> know there is not a single computer shop in Amsterdam (I live near this
> city) where Amiga 500 games are sold.
When car company stops to produce some car you still have no rights to
stole that car from your neighbour :-)
> To my knowledge there isn't even a
> single company in the world that still sells Amiga 500 games. I am trying
> to keep the Amiga 500 platform alive for nostalgic reasons. The
> alternative is that we all forget about this magnificent computer and
> than the Amiga will truly be dead.
Ohhh... come on... A500 tells nothing about current Amiga situation.
Ican assure you that Amiga seems to grow stronger even if all A500 blows
up (or even A500+ and A600 together).
towarzysz Vader
> Apple provides old OS versions for free. (e.g. MacOS 7.5.5).
But Amiga is not Apple. The name begins with the same letter but the
rest of the name is completely different - read the word carefully to
the end (if uou can). I don't care about what Apple did - I have Amiga
and I listen to what they say.
towarzysz Vader
> There is a HUGE difference between infringing on Amiga's copyright and
> posting pirated applications of developers who coded or do code for the
> Amiga platform.
You see... I just told that "license" != "licensee" :-)))
Marcel DeVoe
> Aram Iskenderian wrote:
>> Hey dumbass, you posted Kickstart ROMS and others posted also Workbench
>> disks what would you expect Gary to do? Applaud you spreading their
>> property?
> ROMs and Workbench is in my sight an other thing than old games.
Whatever that means.
>> It is really funny that you complain about someone trying to protect his
>> assets.
>>
>> If were Gary, not only I will complain to your ISP but will take it a
>> bit more high, ever seen what happens to people who Microsoft and Apple
>> go after for posting their software?
>> Get a clue.
> Apple provides old OS versions for free. (e.g. MacOS 7.5.5).
Amiga is not Apple. Neither is Microsoft. AFAIK, they still own the
licences for their older software and don't offer them for free.
> Currently i bought a Amiga600HD that comes with a preinstalled AmigaOS2.x.
> I have got no Workbench Disks in case of crash or a format.
> And i've got no chance to get them for free, because then i am a pirate?
From whom did you buy this? If from an Amiga dealer, they *should* have
provided you with original disks also.
But I suspect you bought it from an individual. And that is typical.
That still doesn't give you the right to steal the OS, any more than
getting a PC without installation disks gives you the right to pirate the
Windows OS. And I understand PC's are sold quite often without disks.
--
Marcel J. DeVoe - mde...@shore.net - Team *AMIGA*
A4091scsi CV64 96 megs CDRW M1764-17" Catweasel FUSION/Emplant
A4000/060 CyberStorm MKII overclocked 66mhz - see "How to Overclock!"
and "DIY A4000 Tower for $45" @ http://www.shore.net/~mdevoe
Luca Diana
>Hihi
> On Monday June 11 2001, Luca Diana said to Erik Trulsson:
>
> LD> I don't want to take anybody's side, but I hope you don't have a single
> LD> unregistered or pirated SW in your computer (any platform), copy of a
> LD> music CD, tape, videotape, etc.
>
>Are you admitting to being a pirate there?
I'm saying that speaking against anti-piracy in generic terms is very
hypocritycal. I would like to know how many people have never
photocopied a page from a book they didn't own in school so not to buy
the book. I could go on with thousands of examples.
I don't condone piracy, but I don't like people who pretend to be
saint, because there are 99.9% chances that are not.
Luca
Anthony Becker
> >This software is the commercial applications of some of our licensees.
> >Please have this user cease and desist immediately or further actions
> will
> >be taken.
>
> This means you have been LYING to my provider. I am very indignant about
> you lying to my ISP calling me a pirate distributing software that is
> owned by Amiga Inc when in fact you do not own these copyrights. I do not
> take this matter lightly. If you ever pull a stunt like this again I will
> sue you.
Actually, you're a bit wrong there. No where does he say that Amiga Inc
holds the Copyright on those applications which would be untrue. He says
'licensees' which is certainly correct for some of them, and possibly all or
most held licenses from Commodore at one time or another to obtain
development materials.
Marcel Devoe
CB> Can't feel sorry for sjonnie.
CB>
CB> By posting all those games you take away any market for my used games.
CB> Maybe I should sue you too for loss of income from the used games I can
CB> no longer sell.
CB>
CB> Pirates always try to find some lame way to justifiy themselves but they
CB> are never legally correct ones.
CB>
CB> There is one site out there that got permission to post old Amiga games
CB> and it is doing quite well.
Yep, that one is called "Back to the Roots".
It was profiled in Amiga Active issue #18.
(Hey Angus, I'm surprised you don't have a link to that website from your
*own* AGDB website, http://www.agusm.demon.co.uk/AGDB , ALSO profiled in
Amiga Active issue #16. Good job ;)
Apparently they had quite a bit of trouble trying to get permission from the
publishers to post those old games on their website. I said "publishers", as a
lot of the original authors did not own the rights to the games released.
It sometimes took them *months* to get permission from the publishers and
authors for just one game.
I suggest that Mr. Sjonnie take a tip from that site and have a clue.
--
Marcel J. DeVoe - mde...@shore.net - Team *AMIGA*
CV64 64 megs A4091SCSI Emplant/Fusion Catweasel
Towered A4000 for $45 and overclocked CSMKII 66mhz
See how at http://www.shore.net/~mdevoe
Keith Blakemore-Noble
wrote something about "Re: problems with Mr. Peake"...
> I'm saying that speaking against anti-piracy in generic terms is very
> hypocritycal. I would like to know how many people have never
> photocopied a page from a book they didn't own in school so not to
> buy the book.
/me raises his hand.
Mind you, as we didn't have photocopiers, that would have made it
rather difficult :-)
Eelke Blok
"Keith Blakemore-Noble" <Ke...@Blakemore-Noble.net> wrote in message
news:68.38.7E2nGt...@Blakemore-Noble.net...
> /me raises his hand.
>
> Mind you, as we didn't have photocopiers, that would have made it
> rather difficult :-)
He wasn't talking about you old folk :)
Eelke
Keith Blakemore-Noble
wrote something about "Re: problems with Mr. Peake"...
>
/me rattles his Zimmer frame.
Come back here you young whippersnapper! I'll teach you to respect your
elders! Just as soon as I catch up with you again - stop walking so
quickly!!!
*grumble*
/me waves his walking stick.
/me overbalances and falls down.
*grumble*
Bill Hoggett
<mde...@NoSpam.shore.net> wrote:
>It sometimes took them *months* to get permission from the publishers and
>authors for just one game.
That's true, but usually down to the publishers not bothering to
respond to stuff they don't regard as important anymore. In most
cases any posts including the word "Amiga" will be automatically moved
to the folder marked "low priority" if not "Deleted items" and never
read.
--
Bill Hoggett
Neil Williams
On Tuesday June 12 2001, Luca Diana said to Neil Williams:
>> Are you admitting to being a pirate there?
LD> I'm saying that speaking against anti-piracy in generic terms is very
LD> hypocritycal. I would like to know how many people have never
As the police say, there's a world of difference between the home-thief,
pirating a couple of tapes from friends every-so-often, and a professional
thief making stuff available for mass-distribution.
It used to be racks of videos & tape decks in garages, now the same can be
done over the internet.
LD> photocopied a page from a book they didn't own in school so not to buy
LD> the book. I could go on with thousands of examples.
Bad example as many schools and certainly most universities will have a
license to permit this. At least, in the UK.
Timothy Rue
>Gary Peake
>Director - Developer Relations & Support
>http://www.amigadev.net
>http://www.amiga.com
>Never doubt that a group of highly motivated and
>dedicated individuals can change the world. In fact,
>this is the only thing that ever has.
for better or worse
>The Amiga Dream Team - Team AMIGA
>Member of the Amiga Family.
define "Amiga Family" as it applies here and in the current AmigaDE
pre-release partypak ad.
>Privileged and Confidential communication. You may
>not copy, or distribute this email. This email is not
>for public use or knowledge.
Does this mean I appear to be violating this? given you use the no archive
bit in your usenet postings (where this originated from).
---
*3 S.E.A.S - Virtual Interaction Configuration (VIC) - VISION OF VISIONS!*
*~ ~ ~ Advancing How we Perceive and Use the Tool of Computers!*
Timothy Rue What's *DONE* in all we do? *AI PK OI IP OP SF IQ ID KE*
Email @ mailto:tim...@mindspring.com >INPUT->(Processing)->OUTPUT>v
Web @ http://www.mindspring.com/~timrue/ ^<--------<----9----<--------<
Luca Diana
>As the police say, there's a world of difference between the home-thief,
>pirating a couple of tapes from friends every-so-often, and a professional
>thief making stuff available for mass-distribution.
Nobody here is condoning mass-pirates
>Bad example as many schools and certainly most universities will have a
>license to permit this. At least, in the UK.
When will you guys learn that the UK is not the rest of the world? ;-)
My university in the States just had a copyright warning on the
photocopier
Luca
Erik Trulsson
Who has pretended to be a saint? I merely said that pirating software
is illegal. I did not claim to be 100% legal myself. But I don't go
around claiming that pirating software is right or try to defend my
right to do so.
--
<Insert your favourite quote here.>
Erik Trulsson
ertr...@student.uu.se
Marcel DeVoe
Yes,
But back to the topic. I noticed your post in the *amiga.wares newsgroup
in support of Mr. Sjonnie "cause".
Normally, I myself don't have a problem with really old games and have
made those feelings known in csa.emulations many times (I just don't like
those PC people BEING there ;) but here is a post I found by the
originator of this thread in the newsgroup he mentions that I found which
makes public the REAL side of him,
forwarded message:
==============================================================
>From: Sjonnie <sjo...@NOSPAM.ziplip.com>
>Newsgroups: alt.binaries.warez.amiga
>Subject: Re: *Request Workbench 2.0 ADF*
>Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 20:10:54 +0200
>Organization: Altopia Corp. - Usenet Access - http://www.altopia.com
>Lines: 13
>Message-ID: <MPG.1589e219c...@news.alt.net>
>References: <OmLT6.173061$OB1.3...@nlnews00.chello.com>
>X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.30
>Xref: news.shore.net alt.binaries.warez.amiga:22589
>
>In article <OmLT6.173061$OB1.3...@nlnews00.chello.com>,
>Blood...@chello.nl says...
>> Hi, I need workbench 2.0
>> If you got it, please send it to me or here!!
>>
>
>
>--More--(88%) [710/798]> Many thx,
>>
>> William
>>
>
>I don't have version 2 but I can post 1.3 or 3.1
>
>Sjonnie
================================================================
end forwarded message
For what reason does one need Amiga OS 3.1 to play games?
Unless it is for newer games and useful applications still being
developed.
In case you have any doubts as that posting AOS 3.1 "still isn't so bad",
here is another post I found that proves his real INTENT,
forwarded message:
=================================================================
>From: Sjonnie <sjo...@NOSPAM.ziplip.com>
>Newsgroups: alt.binaries.warez.amiga
>Subject: Re: *i need OS 3.9*
>Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 19:51:17 +0200
>Organization: Altopia Corp. - Usenet Access - http://www.altopia.com
>Lines: 7
>Message-ID: <MPG.1589dd848...@news.alt.net>
>References: <9fmi8u$fre$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>
>X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.30
>Xref: news.shore.net alt.binaries.warez.amiga:22587
>
>In article <9fmi8u$fre$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, pa...@wardshome.fsnet.co.uk
>says...
>> any one have any ideas?
>>
>I don't know where you can download it :-( The latest version I have is
>3.1. Does anyone if 3.9 will run under WinUAE?
==================================================================
end forwarded message
That certainly makes it clear to me, especially by his disappointing
frowning emoticon not knowing where to *download* AOS3.9, that which
I myself only recently just PAID for besides the prior 3.5, that
Mr. Sjonnie is a *LIAR*.
And no different than any of the other pirates that frequent that group.
And some people say I'm too harsh in csa.emulations.
But sooner or later these people out themselves.
--
Marcel J. DeVoe - mde...@shore.net - Team *AMIGA*
Janne T Siren
: Hihih
As they do in Finland as well, and public libraries too.
In fact, at least here in Finland copying music or videos too I believe
from friends for reasonable personal use (and not distribution) is legal
and artists get a generic payment in the form of royalties from empty
casettes etc. I believe this is the case in many European countries. And
moral issues pretty much go out the window too in this case, as artits'
organizations do get money from casettes, cd-r's, etc., to distribute
amongst the copyright holders.
We can certainly differ on our opinion of royalties on empty casettes
etc., but I just wanted to point out that in some countries at least
(and yes, in countries where copyright is highly valued too) personal
copies of music etc. is legal. Copying software is not legal under this
scheme as far as I know. Naturally "professional" pirating and
mass-distribution are not legal here. Actually, just few weeks ago some
kid made headlines by getting a conviction for distributing copyrighted
MP3's here.
I do not wish to get into this piracy argument itself, I just wanted to
add a piece of information on local legislation to the discussion.
Janne Sirén
Janne T Siren
: On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 21:03:56 GMT, Neil Williams wrote:
:>As the police say, there's a world of difference between the home-thief,
:>pirating a couple of tapes from friends every-so-often, and a professional
:>thief making stuff available for mass-distribution.
: Nobody here is condoning mass-pirates
:>Bad example as many schools and certainly most universities will have a
:>license to permit this. At least, in the UK.
: When will you guys learn that the UK is not the rest of the world? ;-)
And when will you learn that the US is not the rest of the world. ;-)
Neil's point stands in quite a few European countries as far as I know.
At least it does in Finland.
You had I smiley on your post, but at in any case: If anything, this
point does show that varying practices are in exitance concerning the
limits of copyright infringement. And I do believe that the whole piracy
discussion could probably do well with some shades of gray anyway.
As does anything in life. The hard part is to decide when it's black
enough.
Janne Sirén
Luca Diana
>Who has pretended to be a saint? I merely said that pirating software
>is illegal. I did not claim to be 100% legal myself. But I don't go
>around claiming that pirating software is right or try to defend my
>right to do so.
I was speaking in general terms, no one in particular.
Luca
Luca Diana
>And when will you learn that the US is not the rest of the world. ;-)
I merely live in the US (now), I consider myself a world citizen :)
Luca
Bill Hoggett
wrote:
>But back to the topic. I noticed your post in the *amiga.wares newsgroup
>in support of Mr. Sjonnie "cause".
>
>Normally, I myself don't have a problem with really old games and have
>made those feelings known in csa.emulations many times (I just don't like
>those PC people BEING there ;) but here is a post I found by the
>originator of this thread in the newsgroup he mentions that I found which
>makes public the REAL side of him,
<snip>
>That certainly makes it clear to me, especially by his disappointing
>frowning emoticon not knowing where to *download* AOS3.9, that which
>I myself only recently just PAID for besides the prior 3.5, that
>Mr. Sjonnie is a *LIAR*.
>
>And no different than any of the other pirates that frequent that group.
>
>And some people say I'm too harsh in csa.emulations.
>But sooner or later these people out themselves.
Have you checked out my other messages there, say over the last couple
of days? I'd really appreciate it if you had a look, because they
make my position clear.
It may also help to qualify my "support for sjonnie's cause", if you
want to put it that way.
--
Bill Hoggett
Bill Hoggett
wrote:
>But back to the topic. I noticed your post in the *amiga.wares newsgroup
>in support of Mr. Sjonnie "cause".
<snip>
Seems my reply in c.s.a.emulations didn't make the journey to here, so
can I point you to Message-Id:
<asnbitkv5td92abg7...@4ax.com> in the
alt.binaries.warez.amiga newsgroup as that paints a clearer picture of
my position than that implied by Marcel in his post.
--
Bill Hoggett
Bill Hoggett
Grumble, grumble...
Blasted Usenet lag!
--
Bill Hoggett
fat tan stu
wrote:
>Gateway sold Amiga to Fleecy&Bill. But Amiga Inc. did not
>just have to give them "some" money, but also something
>else, because Gateway did not sell/give away really everything.
>
>Amiga Inc. going after certain sites has to do with this.
Why on earth would they care? As far as I can see, their only
interest is in the intellectual property. Piracy doesn't affect that
at all.
Perhaps, as a goodwill gesture to the emulation community,
Amiga/Gateway could release the kickstart 1.3 ROM as a free download.
afterall, it is of no worth whatsoever to their customer base as their
products run on 3.1. There are very few cleared abandonware games
that require higher than 1.3 to run.
You can't argue Amiga's right to defend their copyright, but they seem
a little stingy compared to other companies who have cleared older
versions of their essential software. It's true that piracy abuse is
rife in any emulation scene, but you can't kill the bad without
killing the good also.
stu
Bill Hoggett
<studafun...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On 11 Jun 2001 14:28:48 -0700, georg....@rolmail.net (Georg Steger)
>wrote:
>
>>Gateway sold Amiga to Fleecy&Bill. But Amiga Inc. did not
>>just have to give them "some" money, but also something
>>else, because Gateway did not sell/give away really everything.
>>
>>Amiga Inc. going after certain sites has to do with this.
>
>Why on earth would they care? As far as I can see, their only
>interest is in the intellectual property. Piracy doesn't affect that
>at all.
They're going after piracy too. In fact piracy is the image Amiga Inc
must try to disassociate the platform with before they can hope for
any serious corporate/developer support.
>Perhaps, as a goodwill gesture to the emulation community,
>Amiga/Gateway could release the kickstart 1.3 ROM as a free download.
>afterall, it is of no worth whatsoever to their customer base as their
>products run on 3.1. There are very few cleared abandonware games
>that require higher than 1.3 to run.
Why? What goodwill are the emulation community showing right now?
You do know an emulation user has just posted OS 3.9 in the warez ng
don't you? I hope the servers mangle up his post, damn him.
>You can't argue Amiga's right to defend their copyright, but they seem
>a little stingy compared to other companies who have cleared older
>versions of their essential software. It's true that piracy abuse is
>rife in any emulation scene, but you can't kill the bad without
>killing the good also.
The trouble is that the good ain't fighting the bad hard enough. It's
no good trying to bring the sides together when the place is infested
with assholes who want to spoil everything out of spite.
The emulation community needs to put its own house in order before it
can start talking about goodwill.
I should know. :(
/extremely pissed off.
--
Bill Hoggett
Eric Haines
> LD> the book. I could go on with thousands of examples.
>
> Bad example as many schools and certainly most universities will have a
> license to permit this. At least, in the UK.
>
>
> -.
> Neil Williams, ICQ UINs: 18223711 & 116110052, 2:442/107
In the U.S. as well. In fact, I worked for a university library once
and part of my job involved making photocopies of pages. This was
legal for us and we didn't need to ask permission from the publishers.
--Eric
Duncan Snowden
> On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:49:38 -0700, fat tan stu
> <studafun...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Perhaps, as a goodwill gesture to the emulation community,
>> Amiga/Gateway could release the kickstart 1.3 ROM as a free download.
>> afterall, it is of no worth whatsoever to their customer base as their
>> products run on 3.1. There are very few cleared abandonware games
>> that require higher than 1.3 to run.
>
> Why? What goodwill are the emulation community showing right now?
> You do know an emulation user has just posted OS 3.9 in the warez ng
> don't you? I hope the servers mangle up his post, damn him.
Which couldn't work with 1.3 ROMs. Releasing the 1.3 ROMs doesn't mean
Amiga should sit back and ignore piracy of later versions - quite the
reverse: once people have a legal way to play the older games which
*have* been released by their copyright holders, there's no longer any
reason (if there ever was) for piracy at all. It gives emulator fans a
legitimate path to take, and a simpler one than tracking down an old
A500 just for its ROMs.
I would suggest Amiga take a look at Amstrad's policy on the old
Sinclair Spectrum ROMs, including their terms of use (I'm afraid I don't
have a link to hand; I think the only place you'll get their full
statement is via a Google Usenet search - using Cliff Lawson's [of
Amstrad] name should narrow it down a bit). Amstrad's generosity has
led to the Spectrum emulation community being for the most part highly
responsible as regards copyright. I'm convinced that it would be less
so without their "blessing".
Releasing the 1.3 ROMs is hardly likely to cause AInc commercial damage;
neither 3.9 nor 4.x will work with them. As FTS said, it would be purely
a goodwill gesture towards people who once had an Amiga and would now
like to play the games on legal sites like B2R. Withholding them is only
stirring up ill-will towards Amiga Inc, which they can well do without.
--
Duncan Snowden.
fat tan stu
<bill_h...@lineone.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:49:38 -0700, fat tan stu
><studafun...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On 11 Jun 2001 14:28:48 -0700, georg....@rolmail.net (Georg Steger)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Gateway sold Amiga to Fleecy&Bill. But Amiga Inc. did not
>>>just have to give them "some" money, but also something
>>>else, because Gateway did not sell/give away really everything.
>>>
>>>Amiga Inc. going after certain sites has to do with this.
>>
>>Why on earth would they care? As far as I can see, their only
>>interest is in the intellectual property. Piracy doesn't affect that
>>at all.
>
>They're going after piracy too. In fact piracy is the image Amiga Inc
>must try to disassociate the platform with before they can hope for
>any serious corporate/developer support.
Well, understandable but who are we talking about here, Gateway?
That's who I was referring to. What is there interest in piracy of
Amiga products. They don't sell any. Are they Amiga's creditor or
something? I thought Amiga were wholly owned.
>>Perhaps, as a goodwill gesture to the emulation community,
>>Amiga/Gateway could release the kickstart 1.3 ROM as a free download.
>>afterall, it is of no worth whatsoever to their customer base as their
>>products run on 3.1. There are very few cleared abandonware games
>>that require higher than 1.3 to run.
>
>Why? What goodwill are the emulation community showing right now?
>You do know an emulation user has just posted OS 3.9 in the warez ng
>don't you? I hope the servers mangle up his post, damn him.
That's a warez group, not an emulation group. releasing 1.3 would
ensure emulation users don't have to subscribe to pirate groups to get
what they need. I'm not particularly suprised that OS3.9 has been
posted in a warez group.
>>You can't argue Amiga's right to defend their copyright, but they seem
>>a little stingy compared to other companies who have cleared older
>>versions of their essential software. It's true that piracy abuse is
>>rife in any emulation scene, but you can't kill the bad without
>>killing the good also.
>
>The trouble is that the good ain't fighting the bad hard enough. It's
>no good trying to bring the sides together when the place is infested
>with assholes who want to spoil everything out of spite.
well, true but the emulation folks will supply exactly the same
reasoning. They're right too. Amiga users have a real axe to grind
where emulation of their systems is concerned.
>The emulation community needs to put its own house in order before it
>can start talking about goodwill.
well, if they could legally distribute 1.3 ROMs on their site, or
direct users to where they could download them, that would be a start.
>I should know. :(
>
>/extremely pissed off.
well, sorry to hear that, but I really don't see why it has to be a
"them or us" type situation. bleh, it sux. nothing changes,
apparently...
stu
Marcel DeVoe
> On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 04:03:20 GMT, Marcel DeVoe <mde...@shore.net>
> wrote:
>>Bill Hoggett <bill_h...@lineone.net> wrote:
>>Hmm, don't know about "old" games. But there's this one.
>>
>>Applications in Development for Amiga
>>http://www.amiga.com/feature/about_amiga/apps.shtml
> I am aware of that list. Some of that was committed before the
> St.Louis announcement, so it remains to be seen how many of those
> titles will actually appear.
> However, "old" games were the subject here, because Robert said the
> old discontinued games were being ported to AmigaDE, and I must admit
> I have seen no announcement or declaration to this effect from anyone.
I think that was a mistake or interpretation of sorts from what Gary said,
that older developers who may have written those old games might see that
as a piracy threat to any "new" games they may make for the new Amiga and
change their minds.
Marcel DeVoe
> Perhaps, as a goodwill gesture to the emulation community,
> Amiga/Gateway could release the kickstart 1.3 ROM as a free download.
> afterall, it is of no worth whatsoever to their customer base as their
> products run on 3.1. There are very few cleared abandonware games
> that require higher than 1.3 to run.
> You can't argue Amiga's right to defend their copyright, but they seem
> a little stingy compared to other companies who have cleared older
> versions of their essential software.
Huh? What "other companies"? AFAIK, Apple was the only one to release
their OS version up to 7.5.3 for free download from their website, and
they put a stipulation that you are only allowed to distribute it with
their permission.
AFAIK, all previous Mickysoft OS's are still proprietary.
> It's true that piracy abuse is
> rife in any emulation scene, but you can't kill the bad without
> killing the good also.
--
Keith Blakemore-Noble
wrote something about "Re: problems with Mr. Peake"...
> >>Perhaps, as a goodwill gesture to the emulation community,
> >>>>Amiga/Gateway could release the kickstart 1.3 ROM as a free
> >>download.
> >Why? What goodwill are the emulation community showing right now?
> >>You do know an emulation user has just posted OS 3.9 in the warez
> >ng don't you? I hope the servers mangle up his post, damn him.
>
> That's a warez group, not an emulation group. releasing 1.3 would
> ensure emulation users don't have to subscribe to pirate groups to
> get what they need.
They don't have to now either.
They could always take the rather radical step of BUYING thesoftware
they "need". Just like the rest of us do.
But then, why buy when you can w4r3z it, eh? :-(
> I'm not particularly suprised that OS3.9 has been posted in a warez
> group.
QED.
> >The emulation community needs to put its own house in order before
> >it can start talking about goodwill.
>
> well, if they could legally distribute 1.3 ROMs on their site, or
> direct users to where they could download them, that would be a
> start.
WTF should they insist on teh right to freely redistribute COPYRIGHT
software, especially when such software is COMMERCIALLY available even
now should they wish to actually be honest for a change and PAY for it,
hmmm?
Marcel DeVoe
Bill Hoggett
wrote:
>I think that was a mistake or interpretation of sorts from what Gary said,
>that older developers who may have written those old games might see that
>as a piracy threat to any "new" games they may make for the new Amiga and
>change their minds.
I can see that, though I'd like to know which of the old departed
Amiga games developers are even planning a return. I do understand
that Gary is involved in a marketing exercise here as much as an
anti-piracy one.
However, if we don't like people defending piracy with the aid of
misinformation, we shouldn't try to fight it with the same weapon,
should we?
In attacking abandonware, Gary is defending an image, not someone's
profits.
--
Bill Hoggett
Bill Hoggett
<studafun...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Well, understandable but who are we talking about here, Gateway?
>That's who I was referring to. What is there interest in piracy of
>Amiga products. They don't sell any. Are they Amiga's creditor or
>something? I thought Amiga were wholly owned.
All Amiga copyrights are wholly owned by Amiga Inc., though Gateway
still hold some of the technology patents (most actually). Gateway
sold the Amiga rights to Amiga Inc (or Aminos, as they were then) and
now have nothing at all to do with the company.
We are not talking about Gateway, they are irrelevant. We are talking
Amiga Inc, and they have /licensed/ the Workbench and Kickstarts up to
3.1 to Cloanto for inclusion with Amiga Forever. If they were
suddenly to make some of these free for download, they would undermine
that license, and all other license agreements they are involved in.
It just can't be done.
>That's a warez group, not an emulation group.
Yea, yea, like I was born yesterday. The guy posting it is
representing the emulation community - even if they didn't appoint him
to. He didn't merely post OS3.9, which is indeed a warez issue, but
he posted it as a self extracting multipart Ace archive. Last I
checked, the Amiga didn't have an Ace archiver with those functions,
and I'm not sure if the unarchiver it does have could extract the
files from that self extracting batch of files either.
I'd say that makes it an emulation post, not just an amiga warez one.
>releasing 1.3 would
>ensure emulation users don't have to subscribe to pirate groups to get
>what they need.
They don't *have* to do anything of the sort. They can go to
http://cloanto.com , pay their dosh, and get the CD. What's the big
deal?
> I'm not particularly suprised that OS3.9 has been
>posted in a warez group.
Nor me, because the world is full of dickheads, but the timing
couldn't have been worse.
>well, true but the emulation folks will supply exactly the same
>reasoning. They're right too. Amiga users have a real axe to grind
>where emulation of their systems is concerned.
And with good reason. Most of the emulation crowd - though by no
means all - go around shouting that the Amiga is "dead" and that they
should be able to emulate everything for free because it's their
right?
Even limiting the issue to 1.3, why do you think anyone has a *right*
to emulation for free?
>well, if they could legally distribute 1.3 ROMs on their site, or
>direct users to where they could download them, that would be a start.
Why? What would the emulation community have to offer in exchange?
Nothing.
Emulator developers are another matter, but they're not the ones
shouting "gimme! gimme!" all the time.
>well, sorry to hear that, but I really don't see why it has to be a
>"them or us" type situation. bleh, it sux. nothing changes,
>apparently...
It won't change as long as the emulation community keep insisting they
don't have a problem and that Amiga users must change their attitude.
I don't have a problem with emulation. I SUPPORT it. I don't have a
problem with abandonware, and support that too, though it is currently
illegal and is a situation that needs a lot of work to resolve into
legality. I don't support piracy, and insisting that someone should
have something for free that they're not entitled to is piracy.
My message to the emulation community is this: if you're not prepared
to put anything back, don't expect any favours. Take take take and
shout shout shout won't win over any friends.
Accusing me of computer xenophobia isn't going to do it either,
because it couldn't be further off the mark.
--
Bill Hoggett
Luca Diana
>In the U.S. as well. In fact, I worked for a university library once
>and part of my job involved making photocopies of pages. This was
>legal for us and we didn't need to ask permission from the publishers.
I did too at my university, and yes, you can photocopy legally a
limited amount of pages, fact is that a lot of student photocopy whole
books (at some ridiculous prices who can blame them?)
Luca
Ross Vumbaca
Luca Diana wrote:
> >Are you admitting to being a pirate there?
>
> I'm saying that speaking against anti-piracy in generic terms is very
> hypocritycal. I would like to know how many people have never
> photocopied a page from a book they didn't own in school so not to buy
> the book. I could go on with thousands of examples.
You mean to use for assignments or something? (And not photocopying an
entire book) that's allowed by law (here in Aus. anyway) - it's not
breaking copyright/piracy ;)
Regards,
Ross..
--
*TO E-MAIL ME: Reverse the order of the domain name in my e-mail
address.*
Ross Vumbaca, a 'poor' Uni student at USyd.edu.au
http://www.fl.net.au/~rossv
Running an Amiga 3000 (030/25), GVP Spectrum, C= A2065,
12Mb Fast/2Mb Chip, HD FDD, SCSI HDD's (never mind their size),
Kickstart 3.1 (40.68), OS 3.9, Linux m68k 2.2 (Debian 2.2r0).
--
Tx
news:7cbhitsjj2jvba51j...@4ax.com...
[...]
> I did too at my university, and yes, you can photocopy legally a
> limited amount of pages, fact is that a lot of student photocopy whole
> books (at some ridiculous prices who can blame them?)
>
> Luca
At the per-page prices we had to pay to use the photocopiers at my
University, it was cheaper to buy the damn books!
Tx
fat tan stu
wrote:
>fat tan stu <studafun...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Perhaps, as a goodwill gesture to the emulation community,
>> Amiga/Gateway could release the kickstart 1.3 ROM as a free download.
>> afterall, it is of no worth whatsoever to their customer base as their
>> products run on 3.1. There are very few cleared abandonware games
>> that require higher than 1.3 to run.
>
>> You can't argue Amiga's right to defend their copyright, but they seem
>> a little stingy compared to other companies who have cleared older
>> versions of their essential software.
>
>Huh? What "other companies"? AFAIK, Apple was the only one to release
>their OS version up to 7.5.3 for free download from their website, and
>they put a stipulation that you are only allowed to distribute it with
>their permission.
commodore, amstrad, atari (TOS?), acorn. I've seen some or all of
these freely downloadable or even in the emulator archive.
>AFAIK, all previous Mickysoft OS's are still proprietary.
well, that's MS for ya :)
>> It's true that piracy abuse is
>> rife in any emulation scene, but you can't kill the bad without
>> killing the good also.
stu
fat tan stu
<Ke...@Blakemore-Noble.net> wrote:
>Hi there fat tan stu, on or around Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:15:54 -0700 you
>wrote something about "Re: problems with Mr. Peake"...
>
>> That's a warez group, not an emulation group. releasing 1.3 would
>> ensure emulation users don't have to subscribe to pirate groups to
>> get what they need.
>
>They don't have to now either.
>They could always take the rather radical step of BUYING thesoftware
>they "need". Just like the rest of us do.
oh come on. they aren't gonna use it for anything apart from booting
amiga games disks and demos. It isn't particularly useful for
anything else. the beauty of the emulation scene is that it's
non-profit. freebies are nice, huh?
>But then, why buy when you can w4r3z it, eh? :-(
>
>> I'm not particularly suprised that OS3.9 has been posted in a warez
>> group.
>
>QED.
perhaps I should have said that I'm not particularly suprised that
pirate software is being posted in a warez group :)
>>
>> well, if they could legally distribute 1.3 ROMs on their site, or
>> direct users to where they could download them, that would be a
>> start.
>
>WTF should they insist on teh right to freely redistribute COPYRIGHT
>software, especially when such software is COMMERCIALLY available even
>now should they wish to actually be honest for a change and PAY for it,
>hmmm?
well, if you want the 3.1 ROMS and the other cool stuff on the Amiga
Forever CD then that's cool. If just getting a working amiga emulator
together for playing old games is what you want, then it's kind of
annoying to have to order and pay for something, especially if your
interest is just a couple of hours of nostalgia.
I just feel that making people pay is to the detriment of a scene that
is otherwise based on the concept of everything being free.
stu
fat tan stu
<bill_h...@lineone.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:15:54 -0700, fat tan stu
><studafun...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>All Amiga copyrights are wholly owned by Amiga Inc., though Gateway
>still hold some of the technology patents (most actually). Gateway
>sold the Amiga rights to Amiga Inc (or Aminos, as they were then) and
>now have nothing at all to do with the company.
ah, so they are capable of making an executive decision!
>We are not talking about Gateway, they are irrelevant. We are talking
>Amiga Inc, and they have /licensed/ the Workbench and Kickstarts up to
>3.1 to Cloanto for inclusion with Amiga Forever. If they were
>suddenly to make some of these free for download, they would undermine
>that license, and all other license agreements they are involved in.
>It just can't be done.
well, that depends on the details of the license. Is it exclusive?
when's the expiry? etc.
and I was asking exactly who is concerned about amiga piracy and this
developer cash that was supposedly being offered, should it be seen
that something is being done about it. you said it was a condition of
the sale. That makes no sense. Did you mean that it was a condition
of the initial capital and further funding by investors? That was why
I mentioned Gateway.
>>That's a warez group, not an emulation group.
>
>Yea, yea, like I was born yesterday. The guy posting it is
>representing the emulation community - even if they didn't appoint him
>to. He didn't merely post OS3.9, which is indeed a warez issue, but
>he posted it as a self extracting multipart Ace archive. Last I
>checked, the Amiga didn't have an Ace archiver with those functions,
>and I'm not sure if the unarchiver it does have could extract the
>files from that self extracting batch of files either.
>
>I'd say that makes it an emulation post, not just an amiga warez one.
fair enough. It's warez in a form suitable for use on emulation
systems.
>>releasing 1.3 would
>>ensure emulation users don't have to subscribe to pirate groups to get
>>what they need.
>
>They don't *have* to do anything of the sort. They can go to
>http://cloanto.com , pay their dosh, and get the CD. What's the big
>deal?
having to pay for extra stuff with it that's nice but added expense to
a guy who just wants to play old games.
>> I'm not particularly suprised that OS3.9 has been
>>posted in a warez group.
>
>Nor me, because the world is full of dickheads, but the timing
>couldn't have been worse.
well, since, as you say, it's not in a form accessable to amiga
owners, it probably won't have much impact on OS3.9 sales, hmmm?
The next OS release is also tied to bundled hardware, for the moment,
so I wouldn't worry about that. That's a pretty good way to convince
investors that piracy is being combatted. This is the main
development focus, afterall.
>>well, true but the emulation folks will supply exactly the same
>>reasoning. They're right too. Amiga users have a real axe to grind
>>where emulation of their systems is concerned.
>
>And with good reason. Most of the emulation crowd - though by no
>means all - go around shouting that the Amiga is "dead" and that they
>should be able to emulate everything for free because it's their
>right?
well, I don't want to start that one up again, but no one could deny
that 1.3 systems are dead and of no interest to current amiga users,
bar being able to rekick their machines which, come to think of it, is
a way amiga users would benefit from a freeware release.
>Even limiting the issue to 1.3, why do you think anyone has a *right*
>to emulation for free?
well, it's nice!!! freebies rule.
>>well, if they could legally distribute 1.3 ROMs on their site, or
>>direct users to where they could download them, that would be a start.
>
>Why? What would the emulation community have to offer in exchange?
>Nothing.
that's just not true. Especially since UAE has been ported to the
amiga, meaning that amiga users benefit from the scene. Also, the
emulation scene is dedicated to keeping the past glory of the amiga
alive. emulator coders, users, and people who produce websites are
all contributing to this.
and see my above point regarding rekick utils. that's a direct
benefit for amiga users.
>Emulator developers are another matter, but they're not the ones
>shouting "gimme! gimme!" all the time.
>
>>well, sorry to hear that, but I really don't see why it has to be a
>>"them or us" type situation. bleh, it sux. nothing changes,
>>apparently...
>
>It won't change as long as the emulation community keep insisting they
>don't have a problem and that Amiga users must change their attitude.
>
>I don't have a problem with emulation. I SUPPORT it. I don't have a
>problem with abandonware, and support that too, though it is currently
>illegal and is a situation that needs a lot of work to resolve into
>legality. I don't support piracy, and insisting that someone should
>have something for free that they're not entitled to is piracy.
okay, well that's true. This is why releasing 1.3 as freeware is such
a good idea.
>My message to the emulation community is this: if you're not prepared
>to put anything back, don't expect any favours. Take take take and
>shout shout shout won't win over any friends.
I think the amiga community has become dismally unself-aware of how
bigotted, bitter, and anal retentive it's become. How do you think
this looks to outsiders?
>Accusing me of computer xenophobia isn't going to do it either,
>because it couldn't be further off the mark.
I don't think that gels with the statements you made. you're ignoring
all the good the emulation community has done for keeping the amiga
culture alive. I think giving them a basis for their scene, without
resorting to piracy would be for the good of all. I'm sorry if you
disagree.
stu
fat tan stu
>On Wednesday, Bill Hoggett wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:49:38 -0700, fat tan stu
>> <studafun...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Perhaps, as a goodwill gesture to the emulation community,
>>> Amiga/Gateway could release the kickstart 1.3 ROM as a free download.
>>> afterall, it is of no worth whatsoever to their customer base as their
>>> products run on 3.1. There are very few cleared abandonware games
>>> that require higher than 1.3 to run.
>>
>> Why? What goodwill are the emulation community showing right now?
>> You do know an emulation user has just posted OS 3.9 in the warez ng
>> don't you? I hope the servers mangle up his post, damn him.
>
>Which couldn't work with 1.3 ROMs. Releasing the 1.3 ROMs doesn't mean
>Amiga should sit back and ignore piracy of later versions - quite the
>reverse: once people have a legal way to play the older games which
>*have* been released by their copyright holders, there's no longer any
>reason (if there ever was) for piracy at all. It gives emulator fans a
>legitimate path to take, and a simpler one than tracking down an old
>A500 just for its ROMs.
Yeah, I know you can get the kick1.3 ROM on the Amiga Forever CD
but... well it's off-putting to people. emulation is always sweetest
when it's free. It's a basic principle of the scene.
>I would suggest Amiga take a look at Amstrad's policy on the old
>Sinclair Spectrum ROMs, including their terms of use (I'm afraid I don't
>have a link to hand; I think the only place you'll get their full
>statement is via a Google Usenet search - using Cliff Lawson's [of
>Amstrad] name should narrow it down a bit). Amstrad's generosity has
>led to the Spectrum emulation community being for the most part highly
>responsible as regards copyright. I'm convinced that it would be less
>so without their "blessing".
absolutely. once you've pirated the ROMs, the mind starts thinking in
terms of "I've done this so I might as well do this too". especially
if they've noticed one or two shiny things on the site they grabbed
the ROMs from, It's the magpie syndrome :)
so, offering 1.3 on the site they can get the emulator from, is not
only less hassle, but also a good way to keep the scene legal. i
agree entirely.
>Releasing the 1.3 ROMs is hardly likely to cause AInc commercial damage;
>neither 3.9 nor 4.x will work with them. As FTS said, it would be purely
>a goodwill gesture towards people who once had an Amiga and would now
>like to play the games on legal sites like B2R. Withholding them is only
>stirring up ill-will towards Amiga Inc, which they can well do without.
yep. BH reckons this is impossible though, due to cloanto's license
deal. Perhaps there would be a way around this, if all parties were
willing to participate. perhaps cloanto themselves could host the ROM
image as a freebie. they could at least make money off advertising
for each download, and advertise their own product at the same time.
This may be more profitable than flogging soley the commercial
version, when people prefer to pirate ROMs and not buy it anyway.
stu
Keith Blakemore-Noble
wrote something about "Re: problems with Mr. Peake"...
>
> On 14 Jun 2001 07:39:00 GMT, "Keith Blakemore-Noble"
> <Ke...@Blakemore-Noble.net> wrote:
>
> >Hi there fat tan stu, on or around Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:15:54 -0700
> >you wrote something about "Re: problems with Mr. Peake"...
> >
> >> That's a warez group, not an emulation group. releasing 1.3 would
> >> ensure emulation users don't have to subscribe to pirate groups to
> >> get what they need.
> >
> >They don't have to now either.
> >They could always take the rather radical step of BUYING
>
> oh come on. they aren't gonna use it for anything apart from booting
> amiga games disks and demos.
Either they are going to use it, in which case they ought to pay for it
just like everyone else who uses/d it did, or they are not going to use
it. You can't have it both ways.
> It isn't particularly useful for anything else.
If it isn't useful, then you won't mind not having it.
If it IS useful, then you won't mind paying for it.
Stealing is stealing, no matter how you or your pirate mates try to
pretend otherwise.
> the beauty of the emulation scene is that it's non-profit.
Bullshit.
Utter bullshit.
You'll find EVERYTHING you need there to emulate the Amiga on PC -
including LEGAL images of ROMs and the OS. So, quit your bitching and
start PAYING for what you use - join the real world for a change.
> >> well, if they could legally distribute 1.3 ROMs on their site, or
> >> direct users to where they could download them, that would be a
> >> start.
> >
> >WTF should they insist on teh right to freely redistribute
> >>software, especially when such software is COMMERCIALLY available
> >even now should they wish to actually be honest for a change and PAY
> >for it, hmmm?
>
> well, if you want the 3.1 ROMS and the other cool stuff on the Amiga
> Forever CD then that's cool. If just getting a working amiga
> emulator together for playing old games is what you want, then it's
> kind of annoying to have to order and pay for something, especially
> if your interest is just a couple of hours of nostalgia.
Tough.
I coudl apply your logic to a wide varieties of scenarios.
If I want to own a Countach then buyijng one is cool, but it's kind of
annoying to have to order and pay for something, especially if your
interest is just a couple of hours.
I guess that makes it alright for me to go out and steal one, huh?
> I just feel that making people pay is to the detriment of a scene
> that is otherwise based on the concept of everything being free.
You mean you feel that making people PAY for stuff is to the detriment
of a "scene" that is otherwise based on the concept of stealing what
you want.
fat tan stu
<Ke...@Blakemore-Noble.net> wrote:
>Either they are going to use it, in which case they ought to pay for it
>just like everyone else who uses/d it did, or they are not going to use
>it. You can't have it both ways.
I'm feeling some resistance to this concept. why not release the old
ROM for gamers? why not make it free? plenty of other old systems
don't have this problem.
>> It isn't particularly useful for anything else.
>
>If it isn't useful, then you won't mind not having it.
>
>If it IS useful, then you won't mind paying for it.
i would. it seems pretty ridiculous that it isn't.
>Stealing is stealing, no matter how you or your pirate mates try to
>pretend otherwise.
oh nice. branded a pirate by you, despite the fact that I own 2
amigas and thus 3.0 and 1.3 kickstarts. this is the mentality I'm
talking about. assumption and judgment.
>> the beauty of the emulation scene is that it's non-profit.
>
>Bullshit.
>Utter bullshit.
hands up who was delighted at downloading emulators and legal games
and roms for free. oh, a vertitable mexican wave, who would have
guessed it...
>http://cloanto.com
>
>You'll find EVERYTHING you need there to emulate the Amiga on PC -
>including LEGAL images of ROMs and the OS. So, quit your bitching and
>start PAYING for what you use - join the real world for a change.
er, I have an A1200 and an A500 so keep your abuse impersonal,
thankyou. I just feel it would be great for other people to be able
to enjoy the privelage of using a kick1.3 image legally, without
buying a second hand A500 or having to buy a CD-ROM just for one
frikkin 512k ROM image. that sux!!!
The amiga community, who have benefitted from legal downloads of mac,
c64 and spectrum ROMs for amigaOS emulators, would do well to be less
hypocritical when it comes to their own system.
>> >> well, if they could legally distribute 1.3 ROMs on their site, or
>> >> direct users to where they could download them, that would be a
>> >> start.
>> >
>> >WTF should they insist on teh right to freely redistribute
>> >>software, especially when such software is COMMERCIALLY available
>> >even now should they wish to actually be honest for a change and PAY
>> >for it, hmmm?
>>
>> well, if you want the 3.1 ROMS and the other cool stuff on the Amiga
>> Forever CD then that's cool. If just getting a working amiga
>> emulator together for playing old games is what you want, then it's
>> kind of annoying to have to order and pay for something, especially
>> if your interest is just a couple of hours of nostalgia.
>
>Tough.
>
>I coudl apply your logic to a wide varieties of scenarios.
>
>If I want to own a Countach then buyijng one is cool, but it's kind of
>annoying to have to order and pay for something, especially if your
>interest is just a couple of hours.
>
>I guess that makes it alright for me to go out and steal one, huh?
no, go and testdrive one. that was a piss poor analogy.
>> I just feel that making people pay is to the detriment of a scene
>> that is otherwise based on the concept of everything being free.
>
>You mean you feel that making people PAY for stuff is to the detriment
>of a "scene" that is otherwise based on the concept of stealing what
>you want.
No, I feel that the one thing missing in the scene is a legal and free
way to use the FREE emulators with the FREE games.
If you were happy paying for it, why are you so bitter about the
concept of other people not having to?
stu
Daniel Miller
Or did he post modern stuff like AWeb or Amiga OS 3.X?
Or stuff pertaining to "Amiga NG" handheld development?
If all he was posting was old games then Gary Peake needs to make more
productive use of his work time.
Duncan Snowden
> http://cloanto.com
>
> You'll find EVERYTHING you need there to emulate the Amiga on PC -
> including LEGAL images of ROMs and the OS. So, quit your bitching and
> start PAYING for what you use - join the real world for a change.
Never heard of shareware, Keith? Come on, there are plenty of people
who don't want everything - they just want to play a few old games. It
happens on other old systems, why not Amiga 1.3?
Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying anyone has a *right* to this. It's
Amiga's property, and they can do with it what they will. But it would
be a nice gesture. And it might foster some interest and so actually
help to sell the full Amiga Forever package and perhaps, in time, the
newer Amiga systems.
--
Duncan Snowden.
Duncan Snowden
That's a good point. The sort of people we're talking about don't want
the entire OS; only the (1.3) ROMs, so they can play some old games.
They're not going to go to all the hassle of buying Amiga Forever just
for that. However, it's possible that releasing the ROMs could work in
Cloanto's favour: once those users get "hooked", they might then decide
they *do* want AF, especially if they downloaded the ROMs from
Cloanto's site. Think of the ROMs+UAE as the shareware version of Amiga
Forever, if you like.
Of course, Bill's right on one thing: it does depend on the terms of
Cloanto's licence from Amiga. It may well not be possible, as he says.
--
Duncan Snowden.
Luca Diana
>I'm feeling some resistance to this concept. why not release the old
>ROM for gamers? why not make it free? plenty of other old systems
>don't have this problem.
AFAIK everything is still in the hands of GW and Amiga has the
exclusive right of use... I might be wrong, though
Luca
Patrick Ford
> On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 21:03:56 GMT, Neil Williams wrote:
>
> >As the police say, there's a world of difference between the home-thief,
> >pirating a couple of tapes from friends every-so-often, and a professional
> >thief making stuff available for mass-distribution.
>
> Nobody here is condoning mass-pirates
>
> >Bad example as many schools and certainly most universities will have a
> >license to permit this. At least, in the UK.
>
> When will you guys learn that the UK is not the rest of the world? ;-)
>
> My university in the States just had a copyright warning on the
> photocopier
What States?
--
--
My domain contains .co, not .com as appears in the header.
Patrick Ford Auckland, Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Patrick Ford
>
> I have written several messages to Mr. Peake but I get the feeling that
> he just refuses to listen to me.
Why should he engage in dialogue with someone who is requesting download
source for pirated AmigaOS3.9, and offering pirate copies of other
versions?
How many hundreds of copies of OS3.9 do you expect to distribute if you do
get it?
How are you going to like confiscation of your computer and thousands of
dollars in fines when you get nailed for your shameless piracy?
Marcel DeVoe
> On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 03:19:52 GMT, Marcel DeVoe <mde...@shore.net>
> wrote:
>>I think that was a mistake or interpretation of sorts from what Gary said,
>>that older developers who may have written those old games might see that
>>as a piracy threat to any "new" games they may make for the new Amiga and
>>change their minds.
> I can see that, though I'd like to know which of the old departed
> Amiga games developers are even planning a return. I do understand
> that Gary is involved in a marketing exercise here as much as an
> anti-piracy one.
Or possibly the same previous publishers are the same ones reluctant to
come back to the Amiga for the same reason.
> However, if we don't like people defending piracy with the aid of
> misinformation, we shouldn't try to fight it with the same weapon,
> should we?
> In attacking abandonware, Gary is defending an image, not someone's
> profits.
--
Patrick Ford
> In article <3B24BA7C...@poczta.nospam.onet.pl>,
> de...@poczta.nospam.onet.pl says...
> > Sjonnie wrote:
> > > This means you have been LYING to my provider. I am very indignant about
> > > you lying to my ISP calling me a pirate distributing software that is
> >
> > Did the companies that own rights to the software you post allowed you
> > to do this? If not - you are pirate. And Gary is right here. If you were
> > allowed - simply say it and I'm sure Gary won't bother you again (if you
> > can prove it of course).
>
> The stuff I posted comes mainly from websites with old abandon-ware.
How do you define abandon ware? Just something you want?
If a shop keeper goes out the back to get something does the money in the till
which you can reach become abandonware?
How did the AmigaOS3.9 that you were requesting in newsgroups become
abandonware? It's still for sale. I paid for mine. Can you please explain
why you should not pay for yours?
Patrick Ford
>
> I disagree with you that you call it "stealing". Most old Amiga games are
> now abandon-ware which means it can be distributed freely. As far as I
> know there is not a single computer shop in Amsterdam (I live near this
> city) where Amiga 500 games are sold. To my knowledge there isn't even a
> single company in the world that still sells Amiga 500 games. I am trying
> to keep the Amiga 500 platform alive for nostalgic reasons.
How does requesting a pirate copy of OS3.9 fit into that?
Patrick Ford
>
> Currently i bought a Amiga600HD that comes with a preinstalled AmigaOS2.x.
> I have got no Workbench Disks in case of crash or a format.
> And i've got no chance to get them for free, because then i am a pirate?
No you are a legal owner of WB. I suggest you make a set of floppies from
your HD installation.
Craig Blackman
>well, if you want the 3.1 ROMS and the other cool stuff on the Amiga
>Forever CD then that's cool. If just getting a working amiga emulator
>together for playing old games is what you want, then it's kind of
>annoying to have to order and pay for something, especially if your
>interest is just a couple of hours of nostalgia.
There are lots of "nostalgic" things that people have to pay for. This
is one of them. From what I have seen of the 'nostalgic' scene if the
1.3 ROMs were given away then they would just say 'Why not the 3.1 roms
too.'
As far as abandonware. Everytime someone steals a program that is one
less opportunity for me to sell my old programs. It does hurt someone,
me. I would say that every game made for the Amiga could be BOUGHT at
comp.sys.amiga.marketplace. I sure haven't seen these people who claim
they can't find the game asking about buying it there.
>I just feel that making people pay is to the detriment of a scene that
>is otherwise based on the concept of everything being free.
"Free" Give me a break. Free means someone is giving it away. The free
you are talking about is mostly theft. Far different from free.
Basically, we are talking about 'greed' here. There seems to be a
group that feels that they should be able to have anything they want. So
what if they don't have the money. Just steal it. Or even if they do
have the money steal it anyway. So what if it belongs to someone else.
Bottom line. If someone else owns something and you want it, you need to
pay them for it. The reason or the time period you want it for is
unimportant.
If you don't want to pay for it then leave it alone.
_____________________________________________________________
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion."
| mailto: (2cr...@home.com) |
Cheers from Craig of Tucson, Arizona, USA
--------------------------------------------------------------
Be reasonable. Let's do it my way.
Patrick Ford
> On 14-Jun-01 13:17:12, Re: problems with Mr. Peake, fat tan stu typed:
>
> >well, if you want the 3.1 ROMS and the other cool stuff on the Amiga
> >Forever CD then that's cool. If just getting a working amiga emulator
> >together for playing old games is what you want, then it's kind of
> >annoying to have to order and pay for something, especially if your
> >interest is just a couple of hours of nostalgia.
>
> There are lots of "nostalgic" things that people have to pay for.
That's something like what the judge told Napster isn't it. .
fat tan stu
wrote:
>On 14-Jun-01 13:17:12, Re: problems with Mr. Peake, fat tan stu typed:
>
>>well, if you want the 3.1 ROMS and the other cool stuff on the Amiga
>>Forever CD then that's cool. If just getting a working amiga emulator
>>together for playing old games is what you want, then it's kind of
>>annoying to have to order and pay for something, especially if your
>>interest is just a couple of hours of nostalgia.
>
>There are lots of "nostalgic" things that people have to pay for. This
>is one of them. From what I have seen of the 'nostalgic' scene if the
>1.3 ROMs were given away then they would just say 'Why not the 3.1 roms
>too.'
well, you can't account for everyone I suppose. From a personal
perspective, if I can't get the ROMs easily and legally for any
particular emu system, I just don't bother with it. If I was hit with
"pay $20 for what you need"... i just wouldn't bother with it. So,
how many people have been turned off Amiga emulation by this, is the
question.
they're also more likely to pirate 3.1 ROMs if they've had to resort
to a warez site to get 1.3, and see 3.1 sitting there also. did you
consider that?
>As far as abandonware. Everytime someone steals a program that is one
>less opportunity for me to sell my old programs. It does hurt someone,
>me. I would say that every game made for the Amiga could be BOUGHT at
>comp.sys.amiga.marketplace. I sure haven't seen these people who claim
>they can't find the game asking about buying it there.
that is blatant crap about every game being available second-hand.
maybe if you're only looking for mainstream classics, but there are
many titles that are nigh on impossible to find. Fortunately, some of
these have been cleared, or their presence on-line is at least
tolerated. these titles would be lost forever otherwise. it happens
all the time.
there are many amiga titles that are now unavailable, yet publishers
and authors make no attempt to release them as free or shareware.
They just sit on the copyright and do nothing with it. Every copy
sold on e-bay is one less copy for the next guy looking. also, you
run the risk of buying duff disks. they don't last forever, you know.
disk images, however, are nicely removed from their medium.
>>I just feel that making people pay is to the detriment of a scene that
>>is otherwise based on the concept of everything being free.
>
>"Free" Give me a break. Free means someone is giving it away. The free
>you are talking about is mostly theft. Far different from free.
where did i say that? I'm talking about legally distributing 1.3 for
free. UAE is distributed free and legally, so are many formally
commercial games. it would be nice if the casual emu user could pick
up everything legally on one or two sites, rather than having to trawl
the warez scene or give up $20.
>Basically, we are talking about 'greed' here. There seems to be a
>group that feels that they should be able to have anything they want. So
>what if they don't have the money. Just steal it. Or even if they do
>have the money steal it anyway. So what if it belongs to someone else.
well, I think the general reception I've had to this concept has been
stingy beyond belief. how much freeware have you downloaded in your
life-time? You deny other people the same right as for some reason,
in your mind, an ancient ROM file is apparently worth $20 and should
be for all eternity. I disagree. I say if it's at all possible,
freeware it, and give people a free and legal way to try amiga
emulation, without resorting to piracy or paying throught their nose
for it.
>Bottom line. If someone else owns something and you want it, you need to
>pay them for it. The reason or the time period you want it for is
>unimportant.
well, as a generalisation, that's fine. in this specific scenario, it
is IMO completely ridiculous and ultimately will only cause greater
levels of piracy in the emu scene.
>If you don't want to pay for it then leave it alone.
stu
Keith Blakemore-Noble
something about "Re: problems with Mr. Peake"...
>
>
> > http://cloanto.com
> >
> > You'll find EVERYTHING you need there to emulate the Amiga on PC -
> > including LEGAL images of ROMs and the OS. So, quit your bitching
> > and start PAYING for what you use - join the real world for a
> > change.
>
> Never heard of shareware, Keith?
Why, no. Please DO enlighten me? </sarcasm>
> Come on, there are plenty of people who don't want everything - they
> just want to play a few old games. It happens on other old systems,
> why not Amiga 1.3?
And so they can on AmigaOS 1.3 too. VERY easily. VERY cheaply.
But no, they can't be bothered to pay a FEW dollars for something they
want - they DEMAND it for free with no good justification.
> Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying anyone has a *right* to this.
> It's Amiga's property, and they can do with it what they will.
Exactly.
Something the pirates conveniently ignore.
> But it would
> be a nice gesture. And it might foster some interest and so actually
> help to sell the full Amiga Forever package and perhaps, in time, the
> newer Amiga systems.
Extremely unlikely.
Remember, we are talking about pirates refuse to PAY a small sum for
something already available. There is no way in hell those same scum
are going to pay for new Amiga systems in the future.
Keith Blakemore-Noble
wrote something about "Re: problems with Mr. Peake"...
>
> <Ke...@Blakemore-Noble.net> wrote:
>
> >Either they are going to use it, in which case they ought to pay for
> >it just like everyone else who uses/d it did, or they are not going
> >to use it. You can't have it both ways.
>
> I'm feeling some resistance to this concept. why not release the old
> ROM for gamers? why not make it free?
Over to you - why SHOULD they make it free?
If you want it, then you pay for it. It's an easy concept, surely?
They cxouldn't make it much easier than Amiga Forever - EVERYTHING you
need to get you gpoing.
But oh now, you want it all AND you want it for free, simply because
you are too tight to pay for it.
> plenty of other old systems don't have this problem.
And plenty of other old systems don't give their software for free;
plkenty of other old systems are not trying to make a comback either.
Your point?
> >> It isn't particularly useful for anything else.
> >
> >If it isn't useful, then you won't mind not having it.
> >
> >If it IS useful, then you won't mind paying for it.
>
> i would. it seems pretty ridiculous that it isn't.
If you object to paying a few dollars, then you really DON'T want it
that badly anyway.
Simple.
> >Stealing is stealing, no matter how you or your pirate mates try to
> >>pretend otherwise.
>
> oh nice. branded a pirate by you, despite the fact that I own 2
> amigas and thus 3.0 and 1.3 kickstarts. this is the mentality I'm
> talking about. assumption and judgment.
Please do point out where I called YOU a pirate?
I said "you and your pirate friends". Now, if you read that you will
not I am referring to your pirate friends as pirates, not you.
What was that you said about assumption and judgement, hmm?
Guilty conscience, perhaps?
>
> >> the beauty of the emulation scene is that it's non-profit.
> >
> >Bullshit.
> >Utter bullshit.
>
> hands up who was delighted at downloading emulators and legal games
> and roms for free. oh, a vertitable mexican wave, who would have
> guessed it...
>
> >http://cloanto.com
> >
> >You'll find EVERYTHING you need there to emulate the Amiga on PC -
> >>including LEGAL images of ROMs and the OS. So, quit your bitching
> >and start PAYING for what you use - join the real world for a
> >change.
>
> er, I have an A1200 and an A500
So use se instead of stealing software.
End of story.
> The amiga community, who have benefitted from legal downloads of mac,
> c64 and spectrum ROMs for amigaOS emulators, would do well to be less
> hypocritical when it comes to their own system.
You are fre to come and have a look at my system here and point out any
such software. Hint - you won't find any illegal software here, matey.
Oh, and where are these "legal downloads of MAC ROMS", hmmm? There
ain't none, because Apple have not released them.
fat tan stu
<Ke...@Blakemore-Noble.net> wrote:
>Hi there fat tan stu, on or around Thu, 14 Jun 2001 15:12:04 -0700 you
>wrote something about "Re: problems with Mr. Peake"...
>>
>> On 14 Jun 2001 21:00:19 GMT, "Keith Blakemore-Noble"
>> <Ke...@Blakemore-Noble.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Either they are going to use it, in which case they ought to pay for
>> >it just like everyone else who uses/d it did, or they are not going
>> >to use it. You can't have it both ways.
>>
>> I'm feeling some resistance to this concept. why not release the old
>> ROM for gamers? why not make it free?
>
>Over to you - why SHOULD they make it free?
cos Amiga have ported UAE, which was extensively used and bugtested by
these guys. how about something in return?
>If you want it, then you pay for it. It's an easy concept, surely?
>They cxouldn't make it much easier than Amiga Forever - EVERYTHING you
>need to get you gpoing.
I don't need to pay for it. I already have a right to it.
>But oh now, you want it all AND you want it for free, simply because
>you are too tight to pay for it.
I HAVE it already. I've mentioned this about 3 times now. I'm not a
representative of the emu scene, so don't address me as a group,
please.
If I didn't, I would be stoked if I could download it legally for
free.
>> plenty of other old systems don't have this problem.
>
>And plenty of other old systems don't give their software for free;
>plkenty of other old systems are not trying to make a comback either.
>Your point?
please tell me when 1.3 systems go back into production and I'll be
stoked at realising I'm in a lucid dream. get real, the amiga has
been making a "comeback" for the best part of a decade. perhaps you
could see why there are many people would feel that the old systems
belong firmly in the bracket of the retro era.
it's not like I'm demanding OS3.9 be released for free or anything. I
don't want it. I don't want to buy it. I don't want to copy it.
>> >> It isn't particularly useful for anything else.
>> >
>> >If it isn't useful, then you won't mind not having it.
>> >
>> >If it IS useful, then you won't mind paying for it.
>>
>> i would. it seems pretty ridiculous that it isn't.
>
>If you object to paying a few dollars, then you really DON'T want it
>that badly anyway.
no, nobody wants it that badly. that's why a lot of people just
pirate it. this doesn't need to happen...
>Simple.
>
>> >Stealing is stealing, no matter how you or your pirate mates try to
>> >>pretend otherwise.
>>
>> oh nice. branded a pirate by you, despite the fact that I own 2
>> amigas and thus 3.0 and 1.3 kickstarts. this is the mentality I'm
>> talking about. assumption and judgment.
>
>Please do point out where I called YOU a pirate?
>
>I said "you and your pirate friends". Now, if you read that you will
>not I am referring to your pirate friends as pirates, not you.
you said I was trying to pretend stealing isn't stealing! I don't
think I said anything of the sort. what pirate friends are these? as
far as I know I don't have any pirate friends. are you implying that
I socialise with criminals? tut tut. that's assuming quite a lot.
>What was that you said about assumption and judgement, hmm?
>
>Guilty conscience, perhaps?
lay off with your inuendo. I have every right to use both 3.0 and 1.3
with UAE so :p
>>
>> >> the beauty of the emulation scene is that it's non-profit.
>> >
>> >Bullshit.
>> >Utter bullshit.
>>
>> hands up who was delighted at downloading emulators and legal games
>> and roms for free. oh, a vertitable mexican wave, who would have
>> guessed it...
>>
>> >http://cloanto.com
>> >
>> >You'll find EVERYTHING you need there to emulate the Amiga on PC -
>> >>including LEGAL images of ROMs and the OS. So, quit your bitching
>> >and start PAYING for what you use - join the real world for a
>> >change.
>>
>> er, I have an A1200 and an A500
>
>So use se instead of stealing software.
what? I have a legal right to use those ROM images, whether I use my
machines or an emulator. emulator is more convenient these days, and
the games load sooooo much faster.
And, as far as I know, the cleared games are only cleared for emu use,
not for use on amigas. I mainly play games I own anyway. I don't see
a problem with downloading images of disks from games I already own.
unfortunately, due to piracy, disk-copy protection makes it impossible
to make images for the most part.
what exactly is wrong with this?
>End of story.
>
>> The amiga community, who have benefitted from legal downloads of mac,
>> c64 and spectrum ROMs for amigaOS emulators, would do well to be less
>> hypocritical when it comes to their own system.
>
>You are fre to come and have a look at my system here and point out any
>such software. Hint - you won't find any illegal software here, matey.
it's quite legal to use spectrum emulators without buying the ROM or a
spectrum as they were released by Amstrad. Acorn have released RISCOS
2.0 for free. I'll double check about the C64 ROM but I'm pretty
sure it's cleared or at least tolerated. C64 emus typically carry it
in the distro archive, which no sane emu writer would do, if it wasn't
legal.
>Oh, and where are these "legal downloads of MAC ROMS", hmmm? There
>ain't none, because Apple have not released them.
yes they did. It was covered in several amiga mags, in
emplant/shapeshifter articles. I don't know if they're still doing
it.
stu
Gary Beeton
> Yeah, I know you can get the kick1.3 ROM on the Amiga Forever CD
> but... well it's off-putting to people.
Off-putting?! Gosh, we wouldn't want to off-put any pirates now would
we?
> emulation is always sweetest
> when it's free. It's a basic principle of the scene.
Er, no. That is the basic principle of piracy. Or are you equating
"the scene" with piracy?
> so, offering 1.3 on the site they can get the emulator from, is not
> only less hassle, but also a good way to keep the scene legal.
But there is already a perfectly valid and simple way to keep the
"scene" legal, and yet you and your buddies choose theft. Why is
that?
I don't think you have a grasp of the way basic economics work. You
see, people sell there products and services in exchange for a means
of buying the goods and services that are required to keep them in
business. Cloanto sell OS 1.3 as a means of paying their bills. If
they gave it away for free they would lose that source of income and
would have to find another way of replacing it or face going out of
business. Without distributers like Cloanto, developers lose their
means of selling their products and therefore they lose their
incentive for developing new products. They are forced to leave in
order to survive. And without new products being developed, users
will move to other platforms that are better supported. And without
users a platform dies! Are you beginning to see why Amiga Inc. and
its user base (and Microsoft and Apple and everyone else for that
matter) are so strongly against the piracy "scene"?
Mind you, your utopian world in which everything is free *does* hold
some appeal. Imagine walking into a Ferrari dealership and being able
to just take what you wanted for free! The only problem is that
everyone has to contribute something in order for that system to work.
Somebody has to build that Ferrari after all. And what are the odds
of people like you sceners ever contributing anything?!
--
Gary Beeton
Bill Hoggett
wrote:
>In comp.sys.amiga.emulations Bill Hoggett <bill_h...@lineone.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 03:19:52 GMT, Marcel DeVoe <mde...@shore.net>
>> wrote:
>
>>>I think that was a mistake or interpretation of sorts from what Gary said,
>>>that older developers who may have written those old games might see that
>>>as a piracy threat to any "new" games they may make for the new Amiga and
>>>change their minds.
>
>> I can see that, though I'd like to know which of the old departed
>> Amiga games developers are even planning a return. I do understand
>> that Gary is involved in a marketing exercise here as much as an
>> anti-piracy one.
>
>Or possibly the same previous publishers are the same ones reluctant to
>come back to the Amiga for the same reason.
I think the reason why don't come back to the Amiga has a lot more to
do with the size of the market than the potential piracy.
On Windows piracy has reached a far greater level than it ever did on
the Amiga - and I'm talking proportionally, not just quantitatively -
yet no one is leaving that platform because of the pirates.
Why?
Because the market is bug enough anyway, and because the technology is
amongst the best around. Games, Amiga cannot compete now on either
front, and will not be able to compete in the foreseeable future
either.
That's why the publishers stay away, and why they will continue to
stay away.
--
Bill Hoggett
fat tan stu
>But there is already a perfectly valid and simple way to keep the
>"scene" legal, and yet you and your buddies choose theft. Why is
>that?
I'm not a thief. I have both 3.0 and 1.3 ROMs in my A1200 and A500
respectively. I just feel that $20 for a ROM image is a little steep,
that's all. I don't have to pay but some retro gamers do, and I think
that sux.
I've gone over pretty much everything in other posts. I've had the
car showroom analogy before , thankyou, and the patronising economics
lesson.
cheers
stu
Kelli Halliburton
> >Peake wrote a complaint to my provider claiming I was infringing on the
> >copyright of Amiga Inc. This was a lie because Amiga Inc. does NOT own
> >the rights of these games.
>
> Please don't tell stories. I complained that you were pirating
applications
> of licensees of Amiga.
>
> There is a HUGE difference between infringing on Amiga's copyright and
> posting pirated applications of developers who coded or do code for the
> Amiga platform.
Gary, you need to explain that a bootable floppy contains software that is
copyrighted not by the game vendor, but by Commodore-Amiga, devolving in
turn to Escom, Gateway2000, and finally Amiga Inc. (although I was under the
impression that the technology was still actually OWNED by Gateway, and that
Amiga Inc. merely licenses the technology, and only bought outright the NAME
"Amiga" -- that was the gist of Bill's first ExecUpdate, way back when. Has
that situation changed?), and so while the game vendors may have, through
explicit action or implicit inaction, abandoned their copyright, Amiga Inc.
has NOT abandoned the copyright to the code on those floppies/floppy images
that makes them bootable in an Amiga.
Chris Young
in a bottle and sent it out to comp.sys.amiga.misc...
> Gary, you need to explain that a bootable floppy contains software that is
> copyrighted not by the game vendor, but by Commodore-Amiga
Of course, this does not apply to custom ("NDOS") bootblocks, which
the majority of KS1.3 games are.
C
--
Unsatisfactory Software - "because it is"
http://www.unsatisfactory.freeserve.co.uk
ICQ:28784166
Aram Iskenderian
>Aram Iskenderian wrote:
>
>
>> Hey dumbass, you posted Kickstart ROMS and others posted also Workbench
>> disks what would you expect Gary to do? Applaud you spreading their
>> property?
>
>ROMs and Workbench is in my sight an other thing than old games.
>
That makes you equally pirate and I wont be surprised if your "sight"
gets shut down by Amiga.
>>
>> It is really funny that you complain about someone trying to protect his
>> assets.
>>
>> If were Gary, not only I will complain to your ISP but will take it a
>> bit more high, ever seen what happens to people who Microsoft and Apple
>> go after for posting their software?
>> Get a clue.
>
>Apple provides old OS versions for free. (e.g. MacOS 7.5.5).
>
Like others said, Amiga is not Apple, and Apple releases older an
obsolete versions that you can barely run anywhere, still they own the
whole product, Gateway still controls what Amiga has an exclusive access
to.
>Currently i bought a Amiga600HD that comes with a preinstalled AmigaOS2.x.
>I have got no Workbench Disks in case of crash or a format.
>And i've got no chance to get them for free, because then i am a pirate?
>
If you own an Amiga, contact a dealer, or go to Amibench.org, eBay,
..etc.
Your sorry excuse doesn't justify putting someone else's property on
your web site for everyone who don't own them to download.
--
Aram Iskenderian.
The email address is not valid.
To reply by email, look in the headers.
Aram Iskenderian
>And when will you learn that the US is not the rest of the world. ;-)
It's not?
Texas is the whole world. ;-)
Aram Iskenderian
>On Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:05:51 GMT, Neil Williams wrote:
>
>>Hihi
>> On Monday June 11 2001, Luca Diana said to Erik Trulsson:
>>
>> LD> I don't want to take anybody's side, but I hope you don't have a single
>> LD> unregistered or pirated SW in your computer (any platform), copy of a
>> LD> music CD, tape, videotape, etc.
>>
>>Are you admitting to being a pirate there?
>
>I'm saying that speaking against anti-piracy in generic terms is very
>hypocritycal. I would like to know how many people have never
>photocopied a page from a book they didn't own in school so not to buy
>the book. I could go on with thousands of examples.
>
>I don't condone piracy, but I don't like people who pretend to be
>saint, because there are 99.9% chances that are not.
>
Of course, and Napster and other services prove that right.
What were millions of people doing there?Exchange birthday wishes?
I am against piracy myself, but we all had that software(intentionally
or not) from time to time that was not supposed to be there.
Personally I had very little of those because of my job(s) that got me
almost any software package I wanted sent to me, or sold at a price that
can be labeled as steal, but still at couple of times I had software
that were there from someone else's computer that I purchased or
something like that.
I usually monitor hack/crack/warez newsgroup ( a habit that I can't get
rid of because at one of my jobs it was part or my job to monitor them),
and piracy is everywhere, but in this small tiny market that will be
very little tolerated because also the nature of us Amiga users who are
proud of our platform.
Neil Williams
On Monday June 18 2001, Aram Iskenderian said to Manfred Bergmann:
>> ROMs and Workbench is in my sight an other thing than old games.
AI> That makes you equally pirate and I wont be surprised if your "sight"
AI> gets shut down by Amiga.
With a spoon.
-.
Neil Williams, ICQ UINs: 18223711 & 116110052, 2:442/107
Gary Beeton
> On 15 Jun 2001 12:52:54 -0700, gbe...@home.com (Gary Beeton) wrote:
>
> >But there is already a perfectly valid and simple way to keep the
> >"scene" legal, and yet you and your buddies choose theft. Why is
> >that?
>
> I'm not a thief. I have both 3.0 and 1.3 ROMs in my A1200 and A500
> respectively.
I apologise for making that assumption. But why then whould you
support such a lame rationalization of theft if you have nothing to
rationalize?
> I just feel that $20 for a ROM image is a little steep,
> that's all. I don't have to pay but some retro gamers do, and I think
> that sux.
And if those gamers also feel that $20 is more than they wish to pay
for the ROM image then they have every right to walk away. That's
life!
> I've gone over pretty much everything in other posts. I've had the
> car showroom analogy before , thankyou, and the patronising economics
> lesson.
And yet it hasn't sunk in, has it? The car analogy and the
patronising economics lesson perfectly demonstrate why piracy is bad
for everyone involved. I have yet to see a rational arguement that
puts piracy in a good light.
--
Gary Beeton
Gl...@canit.se
+Manfred Bergmann <berg...@iis.fhg.de> wrote
>> If were Gary, not only I will complain to your ISP but will take it a
>> bit more high, ever seen what happens to people who Microsoft and Apple
>> go after for posting their software?
>> Get a clue.
>Apple provides old OS versions for free. (e.g. MacOS 7.5.5).
..But not the ROM..
>Currently i bought a Amiga600HD that comes with a preinstalled AmigaOS2.x.
>I have got no Workbench Disks in case of crash or a format.
>And i've got no chance to get them for free, because then i am a pirate?
All Amigas comes with a OS licence, so even if you don't have the media
you own the license, so it would be totally legal to copy them by a friend
or get a replacement media from Amiga inc.
..The same goes by for example SGI, all SGI machines[1] comes with an IRIX-license
and you can get a replacement media for the last registred version of that
machine.. but ofcoz SGI want money for it, but not as much as a standalone
copy of the OS.
[1] REAL MIPS-based SGI-machines, not the intel-based jokes..
| Apollo fastslot accelerators page - Http://www.canit.se/~glenn/apollo.html |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| ___ | Email 姣 Sha...@bay-watch.com |
| / __\ __ | Homepage 姣 http://www.canit.se/~glenn |
| __ / /__ / /__ ____ ____ __ | IRC 姣 XT600 @ IRC-net |
| (__/ /_ // / -_) _ ) _ )__) | Amiga - Silicon Graphics - 8bit comps. |
| \___//_/\__/_//_/_//_/ | T h e K i n g d o m o f S w e d e n |
Gl...@canit.se
+Sjonnie <sjo...@NOSPAM.ziplip.com> wrote
>In article <3B24BA7C...@poczta.nospam.onet.pl>,
>de...@poczta.nospam.onet.pl says...
>> Sjonnie wrote:
>> > This means you have been LYING to my provider. I am very indignant about
>> > you lying to my ISP calling me a pirate distributing software that is
>>
>> Did the companies that own rights to the software you post allowed you
>> to do this? If not - you are pirate. And Gary is right here. If you were
>> allowed - simply say it and I'm sure Gary won't bother you again (if you
>> can prove it of course).
>The stuff I posted comes mainly from websites with old abandon-ware. Mr.
>Peake wrote a complaint to my provider claiming I was infringing on the
>copyright of Amiga Inc. This was a lie because Amiga Inc. does NOT own
>the rights of these games. The publishers do and according to the FAQ of
But they DO own the copyright of KickROM's and the WB-disks.. so what are
your point ?
And since the rest of the stuff (games) actually was copyrighted OFCOZ
your provider shutted you down!
>the abandon-ware website they gave permission to freely distribute the
>10-15 year old games from an now obsolete platform. However, since Mr.
IF so, it's ok, but this wasn't the case here.. right ?
>Peake seems determined to destroy the concept of abandon-ware I am going
"concept of abandonware" <lol>
>to contact these publishers myself in order to verify that their 10-15
>year old Amiga games are indeed abandon-ware.
GOOD! That's the RIGHT thing to do.. if you did that in the first problem
you wouldn't have had any problems at all.
>> > I make you a deal: I live in the Netherlands near Amsterdam. There are
>> > over a hundred computer shops here. If you can direct me to one shop in
>> > Amsterdam where I can legally buy games for the Amiga 500 (with Kickstart
>> > 1.3, one MB RAM memory and no harddisc) I will eat my computer mouse.
>>
>> I think that this is your problem. If you cannot get something because
>> of laziness of dealers (or any other reason) that is not that you can
>> steal it.
>I disagree with you that you call it "stealing". Most old Amiga games are
>now abandon-ware which means it can be distributed freely. As far as I
The legal term "Abandonware" does NOT exist! "Abandonware" is a name commonly
used for software that are so old that the companys wouldn't put any effort
in hunting down the people spreading it.. but it 's NOT legal, if you really
belive it is you are either stupid or clueless..
There IS examples where the copyrightholder gave up their copyrights and
put the software out as freeware, but this is a completly different issue.
Abandonware CAN be free to copy, but normally this is not the case.
>know there is not a single computer shop in Amsterdam (I live near this
>city) where Amiga 500 games are sold. To my knowledge there isn't even a
>single company in the world that still sells Amiga 500 games. I am trying
..But you are not very informed about *anything*.. ..at least it seem like that.
I know at least two swedish companys that still sell A500-compatible
computergames (C.B.I and GGS-data) , They probably would sell to you by mail
too if you mail them..
>to keep the Amiga 500 platform alive for nostalgic reasons. The
>alternative is that we all forget about this magnificent computer and
>than the Amiga will truly be dead.
Yeah sure.. if you can't pirate games and put on your 3l1t3 4banD0nW4r3z page
everyone will forget about the Amiga.. Veeery likely.
Duncan Snowden
> studafun...@hotmail.com (fat tan stu) wrote in message
> news:<3b2a9d42...@news.pacbell.net>...
>
>> I've gone over pretty much everything in other posts. I've had the
>> car showroom analogy before , thankyou, and the patronising economics
>> lesson.
>
> And yet it hasn't sunk in, has it? The car analogy and the
> patronising economics lesson perfectly demonstrate why piracy is bad
> for everyone involved. I have yet to see a rational arguement that
> puts piracy in a good light.
You turned the argument towards piracy. Emulation != piracy. There are
plenty of responsible people in the emulation scene; see B2R for an
example. It would be helpful for them and those like them to widen the
appeal of legal emulation if the 1.3 ROMs were freely distributable. Of
course, as has been pointed out, it may not be legally safe for Amiga
to do this without jeapordising their patents. If that's the case, I for
one am certainly not going to argue.
--
Duncan Snowden.
Marcel DeVoe
> On 15 Jun 2001 18:17:58 GMT, "Keith Blakemore-Noble"
> <Ke...@Blakemore-Noble.net> wrote:
> cos Amiga have ported UAE, which was extensively used and bugtested by
> these guys. how about something in return?
Hmm? I thought Cloanto "licenced" UAE from these guys for inclusion on the
Amiga Foever CD?
>>If you object to paying a few dollars, then you really DON'T want it
>>that badly anyway.
> no, nobody wants it that badly. that's why a lot of people just
> pirate it. this doesn't need to happen...
That was very stupid. The more something is wanted, the more there is a
black market for it.
> it's quite legal to use spectrum emulators without buying the ROM or a
> spectrum as they were released by Amstrad. Acorn have released RISCOS
> 2.0 for free. I'll double check about the C64 ROM but I'm pretty
> sure it's cleared or at least tolerated. C64 emus typically carry it
> in the distro archive, which no sane emu writer would do, if it wasn't
> legal.
>>Oh, and where are these "legal downloads of MAC ROMS", hmmm? There
>>ain't none, because Apple have not released them.
> yes they did. It was covered in several amiga mags, in
> emplant/shapeshifter articles. I don't know if they're still doing
> it.
Not true. It was the MacOS 7.5.3 that was released and the Amiga mags had
to ask permission from Apple to include it on their CD's.
As as to the ROM images, they were nowhere to be found on it. You still
had to legally OWN a real Mac, even if it was a Classic or just the
real rom, in order to run the emulation. They are not free.
I have a Mac Classic someone gave me for free sitting in my room if you
want to look.
fat tan stu
>studafun...@hotmail.com (fat tan stu) wrote in message news:<3b2a9d42...@news.pacbell.net>...
>> On 15 Jun 2001 12:52:54 -0700, gbe...@home.com (Gary Beeton) wrote:
>>
>> >But there is already a perfectly valid and simple way to keep the
>> >"scene" legal, and yet you and your buddies choose theft. Why is
>> >that?
>>
>> I'm not a thief. I have both 3.0 and 1.3 ROMs in my A1200 and A500
>> respectively.
>
>I apologise for making that assumption. But why then whould you
>support such a lame rationalization of theft if you have nothing to
>rationalize?
where did I do this either?
>> I just feel that $20 for a ROM image is a little steep,
>> that's all. I don't have to pay but some retro gamers do, and I think
>> that sux.
>
>And if those gamers also feel that $20 is more than they wish to pay
>for the ROM image then they have every right to walk away. That's
>life!
they mostly do, or they pirate. How about a 3rd way?
>> I've gone over pretty much everything in other posts. I've had the
>> car showroom analogy before , thankyou, and the patronising economics
>> lesson.
>
>And yet it hasn't sunk in, has it? The car analogy and the
>patronising economics lesson perfectly demonstrate why piracy is bad
>for everyone involved. I have yet to see a rational arguement that
>puts piracy in a good light.
I challenge you to quote me where I advocated piracy. you may find
that difficult, BTW.
stu
fat tan stu
I would have thought releasing it under a freeware license wouldn't
harm their IP or copyright. perhaps as a further measure to protect
themselves, they could release it as a non distributable freeware
product, only obtainable from one site.
stu
fat tan stu
wrote:
>fat tan stu <studafun...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 15 Jun 2001 18:17:58 GMT, "Keith Blakemore-Noble"
>> <Ke...@Blakemore-Noble.net> wrote:
>
>> cos Amiga have ported UAE, which was extensively used and bugtested by
>> these guys. how about something in return?
>
>Hmm? I thought Cloanto "licenced" UAE from these guys for inclusion on the
>Amiga Foever CD?
maybe, maybe not. the archive is freely distributable. I don't know
if the authors benefit from royalties. given the number of
contributors, I doubt it. Without UAE, no next-gen "amiga" is even
going to be able to run kick1.3
>>>If you object to paying a few dollars, then you really DON'T want it
>>>that badly anyway.
>
>> no, nobody wants it that badly. that's why a lot of people just
>> pirate it. this doesn't need to happen...
>
>That was very stupid. The more something is wanted, the more there is a
>black market for it.
perhaps it would be more acurate to say, the more something is wanted
and the legal price of it is unreasonable, the more there is a black
market for it.
>> it's quite legal to use spectrum emulators without buying the ROM or a
>> spectrum as they were released by Amstrad. Acorn have released RISCOS
>> 2.0 for free. I'll double check about the C64 ROM but I'm pretty
>> sure it's cleared or at least tolerated. C64 emus typically carry it
>> in the distro archive, which no sane emu writer would do, if it wasn't
>> legal.
>
>>>Oh, and where are these "legal downloads of MAC ROMS", hmmm? There
>>>ain't none, because Apple have not released them.
>
>> yes they did. It was covered in several amiga mags, in
>> emplant/shapeshifter articles. I don't know if they're still doing
>> it.
>
>Not true. It was the MacOS 7.5.3 that was released and the Amiga mags had
>to ask permission from Apple to include it on their CD's.
ah. okay, my bad. The Acorn and Amstrad examples are vaild though,
as far as I know.
>As as to the ROM images, they were nowhere to be found on it. You still
>had to legally OWN a real Mac, even if it was a Classic or just the
>real rom, in order to run the emulation. They are not free.
>
>I have a Mac Classic someone gave me for free sitting in my room if you
>want to look.
looks like a small TV, with computery bits. what's your point? :)
you weren't being sarcastic... were you?
stu
Gary Beeton
> On 18 Jun 2001 10:18:41 -0700, gbe...@home.com (Gary Beeton) wrote:
>
> >studafun...@hotmail.com (fat tan stu) wrote in message news:<3b2a9d42...@news.pacbell.net>...
> >> On 15 Jun 2001 12:52:54 -0700, gbe...@home.com (Gary Beeton) wrote:
> >>
> >> >But there is already a perfectly valid and simple way to keep the
> >> >"scene" legal, and yet you and your buddies choose theft. Why is
> >> >that?
> >>
> >> I'm not a thief. I have both 3.0 and 1.3 ROMs in my A1200 and A500
> >> respectively.
> >
> >I apologise for making that assumption. But why then whould you
> >support such a lame rationalization of theft if you have nothing to
> >rationalize?
>
> where did I do this either?
You claim that emulation sceners have no choice but to pirate software
because the Amiga OS isn't available for free. Sorry but that's lame
B.S.
> >And yet it hasn't sunk in, has it? The car analogy and the
> >patronising economics lesson perfectly demonstrate why piracy is bad
> >for everyone involved. I have yet to see a rational arguement that
> >puts piracy in a good light.
>
> I challenge you to quote me where I advocated piracy. you may find
> that difficult, BTW.
You refuse to acknowledge that paying for a product is a legitimate
method of obtaining it. Don't you think that constitutes advocacy?
--
Gary Beeton
fat tan stu
>You claim that emulation sceners have no choice but to pirate software
>because the Amiga OS isn't available for free. Sorry but that's lame
>B.S.
no, I said they have the choice of paying money for what constitutes a
very small part of a commercial package, or pirate it. Again, for the
millionth time, I think it would aid what is after all a non-profit
enthusiast scene if the ROM was freewared. I'm not even suggesting
the workbench disks be included, just the absolute bare minimum for
playing 1.3 compatible games, which can be legally obtained for
emulation purposes from various emu sites. I don't believe that I am
the only one out there who believes that $20 is a little steep for the
1.3 ROM image, and the rampant piracy of said software would seem to
suggest so as well. If you are so keen on stamping out piracy, then
why are you so against this? I'm also not suggesting that the current
3.1 ROM is freewared, and it seems very fair that this software is
still being sold in the amiga forever package for a very reasonable
price. it is afterall the latest ROM version and the OS bundled with
it is still very useful.
I do hope this does much to break down the schism of pro/anti-piracy
rhetoric that seems to be masquerading for an intelligent debate here.
>> I challenge you to quote me where I advocated piracy. you may find
>> that difficult, BTW.
>
>You refuse to acknowledge that paying for a product is a legitimate
>method of obtaining it. Don't you think that constitutes advocacy?
so, you can't quote me. I thought so. okay, I am happy to
acknowledge that paying for a product is a legitimate method of
obtaining it. I think this is blatantly obvious by definition. Why
does not pointing out the screamingly obvious count as advocacy in
your book?
stu
Marcel DeVoe
Not at all. Just showing that I have a legally owned "real" Mac rom.
(although I /will/ admit I got it only after the fact ;)
In addition to that, I also have a legally owned generic MacOS 7.5.0
boxed package that I paid for, although it was part of the total used
A4000 system I bought from a student which included a Mac compatible
Emplant board.
Marcel DeVoe
> On 19 Jun 2001 11:20:23 -0700, gbe...@home.com (Gary Beeton) wrote:
>>You claim that emulation sceners have no choice but to pirate software
>>because the Amiga OS isn't available for free. Sorry but that's lame
>>B.S.
> no, I said they have the choice of paying money for what constitutes a
> very small part of a commercial package, or pirate it. Again, for the
> millionth time, I think it would aid what is after all a non-profit
> enthusiast scene if the ROM was freewared. I'm not even suggesting
> the workbench disks be included, just the absolute bare minimum for
> playing 1.3 compatible games, which can be legally obtained for
> emulation purposes from various emu sites. I don't believe that I am
> the only one out there who believes that $20 is a little steep for the
> 1.3 ROM image, and the rampant piracy of said software would seem to
> suggest so as well.
Steep? You're kidding? PLEASE give me a break!
$20 is worth very little today.
10 year old kids ask their moms for $20 to go to the movies today. ;)