500 Pound Atari Falcon? Re: Sydnes is gone?!!
Jeff Young
in America, Sydnes MUST know new information to make new Amigas!!
From: j...@its.bt.co.uk (John Trickey)
Keywords: falcon,68030
Message-ID: <1992Aug13.1...@its.bt.co.uk>
Date: 13 Aug 92 12:06:47 GMT
Organization: BT Group Computing Unix Support, Birmingham, UK
first models expected in UK September
to be shown at London trade show - September 6.
68030 @ 16 MHz
DSP56001
8 channel 16 bit digital DMA, sampling up to 50KHz
4 channel stereo with recording and playback
262,144 colour palette
Max res 640x480 16 bit mode (65,536 colours on screen)
SVGA modes up to 256 colours on screen
Overscan mode (no black border)
15bit overlay mode for video titling etc.
MultiTOS
1.44 MB Floppy
IDE port for internal 2.5in 44MB hard drive
RAM: 1,4 or 14 MB
Optional 68882
Expansion slot for 386PC emulators or JPEG and MPEG data compressors
Ports
SCSI II with DMA
stereo microphone
audio out
monitor
midi
hi speed LAN (no they don't say what)
Joystick & analog joystick
printer port ``more industry standard''
working name was Sparrow
50 machines worldwide many at top software houses in UK (I presume
others are in D :-) )
Atari Germany ``at least one model above and below Falcon030 including
68040''
price == 499 UK pounds
new case design next April
Sounds good if its accurate but some of the statements get me a little worried.
John
Gregory R Block
: People said these are true specs of Falcon! IF 500 Pound price == $500-$700
: in America, Sydnes MUST know new information to make new Amigas!!
Just a few backwards-compatible thoughts.
: first models expected in UK September
: to be shown at London trade show - September 6.
: 68030 @ 16 MHz
: DSP56001
: 8 channel 16 bit digital DMA, sampling up to 50KHz
: 4 channel stereo with recording and playback
Anyone notice there's no ST-compatible audio mode here??
And I'm going to be blunt, this is a MultiTos issue: Atari has three
ways they could have done this:
1)The OS owns the DSP, they can do what they want, possibly
giving OS routines for people to use it with. Under this, arbitration
isn't a problem, but you're limited to what the OS will let you do
with it. That would take care of pre-emptive multitasking well, but
it would be the LEAST capable option.
2)Nobody owns the DSP. This is a problem. Any application
can do what they want with the DSP, and that will be a problem under
pre-emptive multitasking. This offers a high degree of capabilities
through applications, and is the riskiest.
3)The correct thing. The DSP is treated as if it were another
processor, it has its own "OS". It handles multiple jobs and stuff on
its own. Not bloody likely on something as primitive as a 56001,
though newer, more advanced DSP's take this route.
I imagine you'll be seeing #1 in MultiTOS. Actually, I'd hope
so, because I'd hate to see two preemptive tasks trash each other over
the DSP.
: 262,144 colour palette
: Max res 640x480 16 bit mode (65,536 colours on screen)
: SVGA modes up to 256 colours on screen
: Overscan mode (no black border)
: 15bit overlay mode for video titling etc.
(None of which usable by available ST software, and how are they
handling palette translation? The ST had a 512-color palette, the STe
a 4096-color palette. Backwards-compatible screenmodes aren't listed
either. What will this do to ST/STe software? Try to fudge the
palette?)
And if the max res is 640x480, SVGA goes at least 800x600... But
they can say that, as there's no standard SVGA, so there's really
noone to dispute.
"Overscan mode" caught my eye. It's not selectable? One set size for
overscan? And they're sure this is a video machine?
"15-bit overlay". I'm curious. That's about it. Not much mention on
exactly what it's good for... Can you select any 15-bit value as
being transparent? (ECS allows any color register to be the
transparent value. See, that's technology. ;)
: MultiTOS
Which really says nothing, since nobody REALLY knows what it is. Just
that it "is like UNIX", which might mean it has 10 different functions
for the same operation and is lots larger than it should be, or that
it'll have lots of bugs for at least 5 versions and 4 releases. (SYSV
joke) And it's pre-emptive.
Doesn't really say much about the OS, does it?
: 1.44 MB Floppy
This is redeeming, while...
: IDE port for internal 2.5in 44MB hard drive
Remember this. Because later on...
: RAM: 1,4 or 14 MB
Anyone noticed how that's supposed to work? 1, 4, or _14_?
: Optional 68882
: Expansion slot for 386PC emulators or JPEG and MPEG data compressors
(Might as well just say "Expansion slot", because none of the boards
for it exist. Also notice, there's only one. Which means, if you
want a 386 and MPEG, you get two Falcons.)
: Ports
: SCSI II with DMA
And here's where I get curious. Why include IDE on the motherboard if
they've got a SCSI II chipset on-board? I have a feeling that it's
just another DMA port which has been designed to have enough bandwidth
for the information which would be passed by an external SCSI-II.
Also, it may not have FAST or WIDE SCSI-II implementation, not many
do. Actually, I'd say it's likely it doesn't have fast or wide.
: stereo microphone
It'll come with a little cheesy mike. Great. Audiophiles will blow
chunks and bolt. :) Seriously, it doesn't say whether this will get
any use. It may be up to the application to handle using the DSP to
get the information in.
: audio out
I'd hope so.
: monitor
What kind isn't mentioned. I'd imagine it would be a VGA-style, as
the specs for video look like a wish-me TSENG.
: midi
Naturally, it's Atari's trademark. Let's hope old midi software
doesn't break when trying to access the possibly relocated ports, I
don't imagine they'd be that stupid though. And lets hope this time
they gave proper ports. Anyone remember the hacks for an ST to have
MIDI-THRU ports? I sure do.
: hi speed LAN (no they don't say what)
It's been said that it's LAN through the joystick ports... I HOPE
that's not it. It also may not have good software support. I don't
expect it to be AppleTalk-like invisibility, but it may not even be
usable, who knows.
And again, the OS is up in the air with support for that feature.
Sounds like Atari isn't even done with it, to be honest.
: Joystick & analog joystick
Again, I'd hope so. And a question: How many? Is it one digital
joystick port and one analog joystick port? Is it two digital, one
analog, or did they do it right and give you two ports that support
digital and analog?
: printer port ``more industry standard''
"more" industry standard? Either you are, or you're not. Centronics
or RS-232 compliant would be good, but I wouldn't expect either from
Atari, to be honest, they've got a tradition with that.
: working name was Sparrow
Because it's going to be eaten by the panther. :)
: 50 machines worldwide many at top software houses in UK (I presume
: others are in D :-) )
Wow. 50 machines. Only 2,999,950 to go until it's where the Amiga
was about a year ago... ;)
: Atari Germany ``at least one model above and below Falcon030 including
: 68040''
I think going "one below" would be a bad idea. Don't remove any more
features from this relatively-featureless machine, to be honest. Did
you notice you listed more ports and video modes than you did features?
: price == 499 UK pounds
: new case design next April
Why release it with an ugly case design if they're going to put out a
system with the same features and a new case later? Sounds kind of
tacky.
Anyways, just thought I'd make that little commentary. The Falcon has
already lost much of the glory of the original posts with this one.
Not nearly as flashy as was thought, is it?
Greg
--
(: (: (: (: Have you overdosed on smileys today? Why NOT!?! :) :) :) :) :)
(: "Flesh-pressing: It's not just for politics anymore." :)
(: gbl...@csd4.csd.uwm.edu Gregory R. Block :)
(: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Jeff Young
>
>Just a few backwards-compatible thoughts.
>
>: DSP56001
>: 8 channel 16 bit digital DMA, sampling up to 50KHz
>: 4 channel stereo with recording and playback
>
>Anyone notice there's no ST-compatible audio mode here??
Many software like Pagestream is already running on Falcons!!!
Someone put up Delphi meeting with Atari president so this is TRUE
specs and Falcons SELLING NEXT WEEK at German show so now everyone
can see and buy machine. If Irving will meet with people then
C= can get good ideas from people too!
From: gwm...@iastate.edu (Jane Meyer)
Subject: DELPHI CO Trasnscript
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 07:39:47 GMT
*************************************************************************
Transcript of Formal Conference
August 13, 1992
Special Guest: Sam Tramiel
(copyright 1992, DELPHI's ST Advantage)
Tonight, we're pleased to be able to finally announce the Atari
Falcon 030 Computer. This computer will be unveiled to the
buying public at the Duesseldorf Atari Messe in Germany next
week. The Falcon is a machine that we're very excited about.
We think that it places us back in the forefront of the "Power
without the Price" place in the market.
Here's the specs on the Atari Falcon 030:
CPU: Motorola 68030 running at 16 Mhz
32-bit Bus
Optional 68881 or 68882 FPU
RAM: 1,4, or 14 megs
Standard Atari Cartridge Port
Motorola 56001 DSP chip
Expansion Bus:
Internal direct processor slot for 386SX PC emulation, or other
coprocessor
Graphics:
Super VGA graphics: 640x480 with 256 colors
True color 16 bit mode allowing a display of up to 65,536 colors
Accepts external video sync signal to allow high quality genlocking
Overlay mode for easy video titling and special effects
Overscan on TV's and ST Color monitors
262,144 possible colors
hardware-assisted horizontal fine scrolling
BLiTTER graphics co-processor
Sound features:
Eight 16 bit audio DMA record and playback channels
Stereo 16 bit digital DMA input
Stereo 16 bit DMA audio output
SDMA sound/DMA Coprocessor
Standard Ports
SCSI II port with DMA
High speed LocalTalk compatible LAN
Connector for analog RGB color (ST or VGA) or composite video
RS232C serial port
Bidirectional parallel port
MIDI IN/MIDI OUT
Stereo microphone input, miniature stereo plug
Stereo audio out, miniature stereo plug
Two joystick connectors
Two enhanced digital/analog controller/light pen connectors
Data Storage
1.44 Mbyte floppy disk drive
Optional internal IDE Hard Disk
System software
Pre-emptive Multitasking with memory potection (MultiTOS)
Inter process communication
NewDesk desktop and eXtensible control panel
Multiple window user interface; number of windows limited
only by memory or software in use.
Extensive testing with the Falcon has already been done on
existing software. We are very pleased with the high degree of
compatibility. For instance, PowerNet, a increasingly popular
LocalTalk networking solution works fine with no modifications.
Calamus SL, PageStream, WordFlair II, Cubase 3.0, STalker 3.0,
STeno, Arabesque, and many other well written applications will
work perfectly.
Any bundled software with the Falcon?
Yes, there will be a number of things packaged with the Atari
Falcon030. There will be a couple of games written especially
for the Atari Falcon030...LandMines, and a BreakOut kind of
game. We will also have a Rolodex type of application called
Cal/Apt, a calculator application called ProCalc, and a Talking
Clock desk accessory.
.Sam>
With plugging in optional third party coprocessor boards, you
will be able to run PC type software, and maybe even MacIntosh
software. ga
PIZZA_THIEF>
Is some sort of direct-to-disk recording/edit package under
development (or slated for released concurrent with) the
falcon? With the D/A converters it is reported to possess,
this should be relatively easy to write.
.Sam>
Yes, there are several direct to disk recording systems under
development. And we expect at least a few of them to be
debuted next week at the Atari Duesseldorf Messe.
JBWHIT:JB>
When will development tools that support the 68030, math
coprocessors and DSP56001 be available?
.Sam>
The developer machines that have been shipping to select
developers for the past few months, have all the tools. A
complete 56000 debugger will begin shipping next Thursday.
access memory at 32 bits wide at a time.
.Sam>
MultiTOS will indeed work with a 68040 platform. On the first
question regarding developers, there are too many to mention
now. And yes, some that were not working on our system are
now. Such as NeXT developers because of the DSP 56000 which
opens the world to really exciting software.
DIGISOFT>
Is there a true expansion bus or just a coprocessor slot, and
is 640x480 the highest standard resolution? ga
.Sam>
Yes, there is a true expansion bus. It is a direct processor
slot with all of the necessary goodies...interupts, etc.
768x480 in overscan is the highest standard rez.
Gregory R Block
: Ha ha! you sound like a worried amiga owner. - To me the falcon is
: sounding better every day! [I'm an A1000 owner "from the early days" btw].
Definitely not worried, as anyone here can tell you. I develop
software and hardware. Most, I keep for myself. Some I either have
or will put out as CopyLefted, source-released. Not worried in the
least bit.
: Look at it this way... the falcon is about 4x to 8x "bigger" [faster, screen
: modes etc..] than the old ST, and also has a higher degree of backward
: compatibility than you try and claim. If AA was even 4x "bigger" than old
I'm not "trying to claim" anything. I'm just interpreting what I've
seen, which isn't enough to make any kind of "truth" statement about
anything. The scrappy little details that have been given just aren't
enough to make me do anything, quake in fear OR laugh my head off.
And it's not hard to be 4-8x "bigger" to something which was
technologically comparative to a Mac Plus. In my humblest of
opinions, if this Falcon comes out, it will be the first Atari system
worth looking at. And I OWNED an ST.
: amiga chipset we would be getting at least a 320x200x24 bit mode, and
(Why on earth would anyone bother? What's the point of having 24-bits
in 320x200? Total waste of space, in my opinion. Sure, we'd have
some lovely games, but it's not something to revel over.)
8-bit ham is very nice.
: say 16, 8 bit sound channels or 8, 16 bit sound channels. Instead AA is
Who's to say it doesn't? Fact is, nobody knows anything. Well,
that's not true. Nobody knows anything they're going to tell you.
: little more than up to 8 bitplane mode graphics, and the same old blitter
: - except with no screen dma contention.
"little more than up to 8 bitplane mode graphics". Notice resolutions
weren't mentioned. You've got them ALL in 8-bit resolutions, if the
post that was posted is true. And from there, you can use the
programmability of ECS and probably the AA to alter the resolution's
size. Sounds worthwhile to me, at least.
And a lot of the questions I asked about the Falcon haven't been
answered, have they?
Gregory R Block
: Many software like Pagestream is already running on Falcons!!!
Wow. That's amazing. You've got this really ancient version of
Pagestream running, that's awesome.
: Here's the specs on the Atari Falcon 030:
:
: CPU: Motorola 68030 running at 16 Mhz
: 32-bit Bus
It's a good start. They're already ahead of Apple. ;)
: Optional 68881 or 68882 FPU
Note: It comes with neither. Does it have a socket for it?
Probably. Let's hope so.
: RAM: 1,4, or 14 megs
How is THIS accomplished. That's one HELL of a jump, 1->4->14.
: Standard Atari Cartridge Port
: Motorola 56001 DSP chip
(Not an awesome DSP... and no mention of how it's controlled.)
: Expansion Bus:
:
: Internal direct processor slot for 386SX PC emulation, or other
: coprocessor
That's the expansion bus??? You'd think they'd use a real bus
specification and not some "internal direct processor slot". The
processor slot on the Amiga is for exactly what it sounds like it's
for, a new processor... Suddenly theirs is a general-purpose bus?
Anyone wanna bet it looks like an AT bus? ;)
: Graphics:
:
: Super VGA graphics: 640x480 with 256 colors
: True color 16 bit mode allowing a display of up to 65,536 colors
: Accepts external video sync signal to allow high quality genlocking
: Overlay mode for easy video titling and special effects
: Overscan on TV's and ST Color monitors
: 262,144 possible colors
Nothing about overscan is mentioned, no details on overlay. Nothing
on the quality of the video, lets hope it at least matches the outputs
of an Amiga on a scope. (The Amiga has one of the cleanest signals around)
: hardware-assisted horizontal fine scrolling
: BLiTTER graphics co-processor
This, IMHO, is tacky. Their "blitter" does nothing but bitblt's,
might as well be an S3. Absolutely no competition for the Amiga's
Blitter (they should have stuck with the "Bimmer" notation, bit
manipulator is a more correct description)
: Sound features:
:
: Eight 16 bit audio DMA record and playback channels
: Stereo 16 bit digital DMA input
: Stereo 16 bit DMA audio output
How does this wash? 8 16-bit audio record/playback channels and only
stereo 16-bit output? Sounds like they're playing with your minds by
covering up the features. I wish specifics were mentioned.
: SDMA sound/DMA Coprocessor
Yup. Sounds like it's OS-only access to the DSP, definitely a waste
of resources. The 56001 is more than a cheap audio controller.
: Standard Ports
:
: SCSI II port with DMA
Again, no mention of whether the SCSI-II has fast or wide
implementations. (That CANNOT be inferred by stating "SCSI-II")
: High speed LocalTalk compatible LAN
Well, now we know the type. Now how's the software support for
invisible access, like AppleTalk protocol is envisioned to work?
: Connector for analog RGB color (ST or VGA) or composite video
: RS232C serial port
: Bidirectional parallel port
No mention of type. If they'll mention RS232C for the serial, then
they probably would have mentioned RS232C or Centronics if it was
compatible with either. Translation: It's another custom jobbie.
: MIDI IN/MIDI OUT
Again, we'd hope.
: Stereo microphone input, miniature stereo plug
: Stereo audio out, miniature stereo plug
These should have been RCA jacks, as any audiophile could tell you.
: Two joystick connectors
: Two enhanced digital/analog controller/light pen connectors
Separate. Great. Two "hack joysticks", and two "real joystick"
ports.
: Data Storage
:
: 1.44 Mbyte floppy disk drive
: Optional internal IDE Hard Disk
Pointless if they've got SCSI-II on the back. Kind of a waste of DMA,
isn't it?
: System software
:
: Pre-emptive Multitasking with memory potection (MultiTOS)
Good. Resource tracking?
: Inter process communication
No method specified. Pointer-pass? Copy message? Big difference in
speed. Then, of course, people wonder if it's got some system-wide
form of an IPC/script language like REXX is for OS/2 and AmigaOS.
: NewDesk desktop and eXtensible control panel
Says little. Sounds like a better metaphor than the GEM desktop, and
I've never been partial to the "control panel" gimmick.
: Multiple window user interface; number of windows limited
: only by memory or software in use.
It's about time, isn't it? (Curiosity: Why would it be limited by
"software in use"? That the software doesn't open any more, or
because if it's an old ST-compatible program that it can't open any
more than 4 because the OS is running that task in ST-compatibility
mode, thinking that it doesn't know it can open more?)
: Extensive testing with the Falcon has already been done on
: existing software. We are very pleased with the high degree of
: compatibility. For instance, PowerNet, a increasingly popular
: LocalTalk networking solution works fine with no modifications.
Does that mean you'll have no built-in software for LAN use? Kind of
dumb to add network support and then not give you the software to use
it, doesn't it?
: Calamus SL, PageStream, WordFlair II, Cubase 3.0, STalker 3.0,
: STeno, Arabesque, and many other well written applications will
: work perfectly.
Calamus is a nice package, I must say. But it will be in dire need of
a Falcon-specific version.
: Any bundled software with the Falcon?
:
: Yes, there will be a number of things packaged with the Atari
: Falcon030. There will be a couple of games written especially
: for the Atari Falcon030...LandMines, and a BreakOut kind of
: game. We will also have a Rolodex type of application called
: Cal/Apt, a calculator application called ProCalc, and a Talking
: Clock desk accessory.
Wow. That's just awesome. You know, there's about 10x that shipped
with 2.0 for the Amiga. That is REALLY sad. An address-keeper, a
rolodex, a clock, and Breakout MCMLXXVII, as if there haven't been
enough BreakOut games invented.
: With plugging in optional third party coprocessor boards, you
: will be able to run PC type software, and maybe even MacIntosh
: software. ga
And if it had been done right, it would have a real bus with more than
one slot that you could have put it into instead, thereby avoiding
opening your case each time you need to run something for the Mac or
PC. If you're going to do emulation, don't force the user into one
emulator like that.
: .Sam>
: Yes, there are several direct to disk recording systems under
: development. And we expect at least a few of them to be
: debuted next week at the Atari Duesseldorf Messe.
Sounds like non-arbitrated DSP use.
: .Sam>
: MultiTOS will indeed work with a 68040 platform. On the first
: question regarding developers, there are too many to mention
: now. And yes, some that were not working on our system are
: now. Such as NeXT developers because of the DSP 56000 which
: opens the world to really exciting software.
At least they wrote their code right this time. And the DSP would
open a lot of doors. Would, if done right. They still haven't
convinced me that they have.
What happens when you run 2 DSP-using programs? Or try to play a
sound while the DSP is recording something direct-to-disk by an
application?
: Yes, there is a true expansion bus. It is a direct processor
: slot with all of the necessary goodies...interupts, etc.
: 768x480 in overscan is the highest standard rez.
A "direct processor slot" is not a true expansion bus. Even Apple
got that one right, those technological, architectural geniuses.
Jeff Young
>jyo...@nyx.cs.du.edu (Jeff Young) writes:
>: Many software like Pagestream is already running on Falcons!!!
>
>Wow. That's amazing. You've got this really ancient version of
>Pagestream running, that's awesome.
MANY versions of many programs now running on Falcons. That is very
good because many people in England not buying A600s because big
percent of software not running on it. Falcon 030 is almost same
price as A600 with 2 megabyte chip so C= MUST force better compatable
software!
>It's a good start. They're already ahead of Apple. ;)
Amiga and Falcons WAY AHEAD of Apple!!
(new 3000T/40 too expensive but)
>
>: Optional 68881 or 68882 FPU
>
>Note: It comes with neither. Does it have a socket for it?
>Probably. Let's hope so.
YES!! Compare to A600 with no socket or 68030.
>
>: RAM: 1,4, or 14 megs
>
>How is THIS accomplished. That's one HELL of a jump, 1->4->14.
Maybe other people know? With A600 memory card has TERRIBLE price
for even small memory. A600 with 4 mb card will cost MUCH more
than Falcon!
>
>: Standard Atari Cartridge Port
>: Motorola 56001 DSP chip
>
>(Not an awesome DSP... and no mention of how it's controlled.)
You must be expert designer because Next, Sunrize, SGI, Turtle Beach
all use 56001 so maybe they do not have you knowledge! Turtle Beach
card is $800 (same price as Falcon!??). WHY Sunrize, SGI designers
so foolish and not follow you advice with better DSP??
C= does not even put DSP in A500, A2000, A3000 so maybe you are
right!
>
>: Expansion Bus:
>:
>: Internal direct processor slot for 386SX PC emulation, or other
>: coprocessor
>
>That's the expansion bus??? You'd think they'd use a real bus
>specification and not some "internal direct processor slot". The
>processor slot on the Amiga is for exactly what it sounds like it's
>for, a new processor... Suddenly theirs is a general-purpose bus?
>
With A600 PCMIA is REAL BUS and news said not even Apple following
standard! Maybe Atari designers need more input from expert like you.
IF 386 and video cards and ram cards fit in bus then it is good and
cheap bus.
>: Graphics:
>:
>: Super VGA graphics: 640x480 with 256 colors
>: True color 16 bit mode allowing a display of up to 65,536 colors
>: Accepts external video sync signal to allow high quality genlocking
>: Overlay mode for easy video titling and special effects
>: Overscan on TV's and ST Color monitors
>: 262,144 possible colors
>
>Nothing about overscan is mentioned, no details on overlay. Nothing
>on the quality of the video, lets hope it at least matches the outputs
>of an Amiga on a scope. (The Amiga has one of the cleanest signals around)
This is TRUTH!! Amiga has very good video and everyone hoping Falcon can
match up to even A600.
>
>: hardware-assisted horizontal fine scrolling
>: BLiTTER graphics co-processor
>
>This, IMHO, is tacky. Their "blitter" does nothing but bitblt's,
>might as well be an S3. Absolutely no competition for the Amiga's
>Blitter (they should have stuck with the "Bimmer" notation, bit
>manipulator is a more correct description)
Not sure about blitter. Amiga has very good blitter too.
>
>: Sound features:
>:
>: Eight 16 bit audio DMA record and playback channels
>: Stereo 16 bit digital DMA input
>: Stereo 16 bit DMA audio output
>
>How does this wash? 8 16-bit audio record/playback channels and only
>stereo 16-bit output? Sounds like they're playing with your minds by
>covering up the features. I wish specifics were mentioned.
Yes many millions of musicians waiting for more specs and next week
Falcon will show all.
>
>: SDMA sound/DMA Coprocessor
>
>Yup. Sounds like it's OS-only access to the DSP, definitely a waste
>of resources. The 56001 is more than a cheap audio controller.
Next week everyone will know truth. IF DSP is used very well
in Falcon then many millions will buy it for sure!
>: SCSI II port with DMA
>Again, no mention of whether the SCSI-II has fast or wide
>implementations. (That CANNOT be inferred by stating "SCSI-II")
Yes Atari MUST give more info to compare SCSI2 in Falcon with
IDE in A600! People can compare with A2000 and A3000 too.
>
>: High speed LocalTalk compatible LAN
>
>Well, now we know the type. Now how's the software support for
>invisible access, like AppleTalk protocol is envisioned to work?
Not sure but A600 has invisible Localtalk LAN I think!!
>
>: Connector for analog RGB color (ST or VGA) or composite video
>: RS232C serial port
>: Bidirectional parallel port
>
>No mention of type. If they'll mention RS232C for the serial, then
>they probably would have mentioned RS232C or Centronics if it was
>compatible with either. Translation: It's another custom jobbie.
But flicker fixer is $200-$300 custom jobbie too! Even DKB Megachip
is $300 custom jobbie so I hope Atari parallel port is FREE!
>
>: MIDI IN/MIDI OUT
>
>Again, we'd hope.
>
>: Stereo microphone input, miniature stereo plug
>: Stereo audio out, miniature stereo plug
>
>These should have been RCA jacks, as any audiophile could tell you.
Atari stuffing SO MANY things in case maybe not possible, but expert
designer like you would find a way and compete with A600 price!
>
>: Two joystick connectors
>: Two enhanced digital/analog controller/light pen connectors
>
>Separate. Great. Two "hack joysticks", and two "real joystick"
>ports.
??? Many people can find things to do with both types so it is very good.
>
>: Data Storage
>:
>: 1.44 Mbyte floppy disk drive
You forgot comment about 1.44 drive! People said 2.88 like in new PS/2
can be used too so this is very good feature.
>: Optional internal IDE Hard Disk
>
>Pointless if they've got SCSI-II on the back. Kind of a waste of DMA,
>isn't it?
You must be A600 designer! Many people will like option of using
SCSI or IDE. No choice with A600 but maybe C= will add $$$ option
later??
>
>: System software
>:
>: Pre-emptive Multitasking with memory potection (MultiTOS)
>
>Good. Resource tracking?
What is resource tracking? Millions of people want MultiTOS DIG
and memory protection so maybe resource tracking will be inlcuded
later!
>
>: Inter process communication
>
>No method specified. Pointer-pass? Copy message? Big difference in
>speed. Then, of course, people wonder if it's got some system-wide
>form of an IPC/script language like REXX is for OS/2 and AmigaOS.
This is short description..
MultiTOS allows as many processes to run concurrently, and as many
windows to be open, as memory permits. It can employ the 68030 Memory-
Management Unit's (MMU) hardware-based memory-protection capability to
prevent accidental memory trespass and restrict how much memory each
process occupies. Well-behaved applications can set their own boundaries,
using Malloc() and Mshrink() calls; while badly-behaved applications can
be restricted deliberately, by the user. Even in the absence of an MMU
(i.e., when MultiTOS is running on a 68000-based ST), features have been
incorporated to permit indentification and graceful shutdown of rogue
processes, avoiding system crashes in all but the most severe cases.
File- and record-locking is now automatic at the TOS level -- another
reason why current applications don't need to be rewritten to run under
MultiTOS. Output from TOS (i.e., non-GEM) applications is piped
automatically to the window-manager, and output is displayed in its own
window. A variety of Inter-Process Communication (IPC) facilities are
supported, including piping and forms of shared memory, as well as a
brace of options by which processes may "spawn" child-processes, and
control their operation.
>
>: NewDesk desktop and eXtensible control panel
>
>Says little. Sounds like a better metaphor than the GEM desktop, and
>I've never been partial to the "control panel" gimmick.
>
>: Multiple window user interface; number of windows limited
>: only by memory or software in use.
>
>It's about time, isn't it? (Curiosity: Why would it be limited by
>"software in use"? That the software doesn't open any more, or
>because if it's an old ST-compatible program that it can't open any
>more than 4 because the OS is running that task in ST-compatibility
>mode, thinking that it doesn't know it can open more?)
Not sure but you can ask Atari MultiTOS experts!
>
>: Extensive testing with the Falcon has already been done on
>: existing software. We are very pleased with the high degree of
>: compatibility. For instance, PowerNet, a increasingly popular
>: LocalTalk networking solution works fine with no modifications.
>
>Does that mean you'll have no built-in software for LAN use? Kind of
>dumb to add network support and then not give you the software to use
>it, doesn't it?
YES!! Sometimes Atari is doing very dumb things!
>
>: Calamus SL, PageStream, WordFlair II, Cubase 3.0, STalker 3.0,
>: STeno, Arabesque, and many other well written applications will
>: work perfectly.
>
>Calamus is a nice package, I must say. But it will be in dire need of
>a Falcon-specific version.
>
Many people said Calamus is best in the world and it is nice that
people can use Falcon when they buy it! If many software breaks
like on A600 many people will think money is wasted.
>: Any bundled software with the Falcon?
>:
>: Yes, there will be a number of things packaged with the Atari
>: Falcon030. There will be a couple of games written especially
>: for the Atari Falcon030...LandMines, and a BreakOut kind of
>: game. We will also have a Rolodex type of application called
>: Cal/Apt, a calculator application called ProCalc, and a Talking
>: Clock desk accessory.
>
>Wow. That's just awesome. You know, there's about 10x that shipped
>with 2.0 for the Amiga. That is REALLY sad. An address-keeper, a
>rolodex, a clock, and Breakout MCMLXXVII, as if there haven't been
>enough BreakOut games invented.
This is very true so Atari should sell Falcon for $2000 and include
over $1000 in FREE software!! You have very good idea!
>
>: With plugging in optional third party coprocessor boards, you
>: will be able to run PC type software, and maybe even MacIntosh
>: software. ga
>
>And if it had been done right, it would have a real bus with more than
>one slot that you could have put it into instead, thereby avoiding
>opening your case each time you need to run something for the Mac or
>PC. If you're going to do emulation, don't force the user into one
>emulator like that.
Yes real bus like A600 might be good but Atari is trying to sell
Falcons for very low price.
>
>: .Sam>
>: Yes, there are several direct to disk recording systems under
>: development. And we expect at least a few of them to be
>: debuted next week at the Atari Duesseldorf Messe.
>
>Sounds like non-arbitrated DSP use.
Maybe Atari experts can find out for sure next week.
>
>: .Sam>
>: MultiTOS will indeed work with a 68040 platform. On the first
>: question regarding developers, there are too many to mention
>: now. And yes, some that were not working on our system are
>: now. Such as NeXT developers because of the DSP 56000 which
>: opens the world to really exciting software.
>
>At least they wrote their code right this time. And the DSP would
>open a lot of doors. Would, if done right. They still haven't
>convinced me that they have.
>
>What happens when you run 2 DSP-using programs? Or try to play a
>sound while the DSP is recording something direct-to-disk by an
>application?
Not sure but with expert Next programers Falcon DSP might be
used very nice! Cannot compare with A600 because you said
56001 DSP is not so good so C= did not use it.
>
>: Yes, there is a true expansion bus. It is a direct processor
>: slot with all of the necessary goodies...interupts, etc.
>: 768x480 in overscan is the highest standard rez.
>
>A "direct processor slot" is not a true expansion bus. Even Apple
>got that one right, those technological, architectural geniuses.
>
>Greg
Yes if Atari designers consulted you on many things they would not
make so many mistakes! For many millions of people Atari Falcon 030
is very good value and many students can learn about DSP and 68030
and true color and Unix with it.
Gregory R Block
: MANY versions of many programs now running on Falcons. That is very
: good because many people in England not buying A600s because big
: percent of software not running on it. Falcon 030 is almost same
: price as A600 with 2 megabyte chip so C= MUST force better compatable
: software!
I THINK I've got what you said sorted out. Anyone ever tell you your
English is really, really bad? Yes, many versions of many programs
ARE now running on Falcons. However, they're all ST programs, and
will get no benefit from the Falcon besides running faster. For
instance, Calamus (DTP) could benefit greatly from a 256 color screen.
However, that will require a total rewrite, to be likely.
And I just don't think that's going to happen.
: Amiga and Falcons WAY AHEAD of Apple!!
: (new 3000T/40 too expensive but)
It was a joke referring to having a 68030 with a 32-bit bus.
: YES!! Compare to A600 with no socket or 68030.
Except the Falcon would still be more expensive. And no, of course it
doesn't have a socket for a 68881/2. It's not an 020/030 machine.
Makes sense, doesn't it?
: Maybe other people know? With A600 memory card has TERRIBLE price
: for even small memory. A600 with 4 mb card will cost MUCH more
: than Falcon!
Not necessarily. I've been looking into it, and it should be possible
to pull a "baseboard" idea with it, with a little work. And in the
short term, it'll be cheaper, much cheaper, then a 4mb ram card for
the PCMCIA connector.
But to make another comparison, the wish-me bus used by the Falcon
isn't anywhere near as nice as PCMCIA, which is at least a
cross-platform expansion system.
: You must be expert designer because Next, Sunrize, SGI, Turtle Beach
: all use 56001 so maybe they do not have you knowledge! Turtle Beach
You know very little. The 56001 is not some awesome DSP, there are
much better ones currently available.
: card is $800 (same price as Falcon!??). WHY Sunrize, SGI designers
: so foolish and not follow you advice with better DSP??
It doesn't make them foolish, I'm telling you it's not awesome. It's
nice, but nothing more.
: C= does not even put DSP in A500, A2000, A3000 so maybe you are
: right!
It's being used for sound generation on the Falcon. Sounds like the
Paula's handling that just fine. That's the point. It's filling a
function better left to other things, because anyone can tell you that
there are better uses for a DSP than to produce sound.
: With A600 PCMIA is REAL BUS and news said not even Apple following
: standard! Maybe Atari designers need more input from expert like you.
It doesn't MATTER if Apple follows it. It's got enough IBM backing
that Apple means next to nothing.
: IF 386 and video cards and ram cards fit in bus then it is good and
: cheap bus.
The way it sounds, it's not going to be likely you'll see this
"processor direct slot", and that's more or less what it is, with more
than one slot per system, as it's not a real bus. No arbitration, bus
mastering, etc. It's NOT a bus. It's access to motherboard signals.
And the fact that boards MAY exist doesn't MAKE it a good bus, ISA
being proof.
: This is TRUTH!! Amiga has very good video and everyone hoping Falcon can
: match up to even A600.
But Atari isn't giving any video specifications. No mention of
support for PAL/NTSC signals, no mention of signal quality, no mention
of specific features generalized by that post. Doesn't sound very
"video-oriented".
: Not sure about blitter. Amiga has very good blitter too.
The point is, the Atari blitter is a joke. It doesn't compare to the
Amiga's blitter, which is actually a bit manipulator.
: Yes many millions of musicians waiting for more specs and next week
: Falcon will show all.
At this rate, they could be waiting a long time. It looks like
they're trying to hide actual specifications with lots of generalizations.
: Next week everyone will know truth. IF DSP is used very well
: in Falcon then many millions will buy it for sure!
Not for sure. Because many millions of people don't have a use for a DSP.
: Yes Atari MUST give more info to compare SCSI2 in Falcon with
: IDE in A600! People can compare with A2000 and A3000 too.
Are you beginning to see how little information they actually gave?
They gave you lots of flashy catch-phrases with no hard facts. I'm
rather let down by this, I expected something more.
: Not sure but A600 has invisible Localtalk LAN I think!!
Except they mention the software for it being a separate package...
If they're going to put network HARDWARE on the system, then they
should put the SOFTWARE there too. It's kind of a weak, half-hearted
attempt at competing with Apple's built-in networking capabilities, if
this is "how it is".
: But flicker fixer is $200-$300 custom jobbie too! Even DKB Megachip
: is $300 custom jobbie so I hope Atari parallel port is FREE!
You don't seem to get it: First of all, the reason the Amiga flickers
is because it's the STANDARD. Televisions, those things you stare at
for hours on end, flicker. To generate video compatible with that of
your television, it must be PAL or NTSC compatible, depending on where
you are, which means it's going to FLICKER. More professionally, it's
referred to as "interlacing".
And having a "non-standard parallel port" is a bit different than
"flickery graphics". You can't really make claims about knowing
anything about video without knowing stuff like that, you know.
: Atari stuffing SO MANY things in case maybe not possible, but expert
Doubtful. RCA jacks aren't space-pigs, you know.
: designer like you would find a way and compete with A600 price!
All these compliments are just making me ooze. If I'm an expert
designer now, maybe by the time I graduate I'll be able to take DH's
job. :)
: ??? Many people can find things to do with both types so it is very good.
Having two "sets" of joystick ports is a hack. One set digital only,
the other digital/analog. Does it ring yet?
: You forgot comment about 1.44 drive! People said 2.88 like in new PS/2
: can be used too so this is very good feature.
It's a lovely feature, I'm sure. But I'd prefer a floptical or a hard
drive. That's why I have a hard drive now. I rarely use floppies.
: You must be A600 designer! Many people will like option of using
: SCSI or IDE. No choice with A600 but maybe C= will add $$$ option
: later??
Probably. However, I still don't see the point of putting BOTH in.
If low price is the objective, it would be cheaper to cut the throat
of the worst offender, which, in this case, would be IDE.
: What is resource tracking? Millions of people want MultiTOS DIG
: and memory protection so maybe resource tracking will be inlcuded
: later!
Resource tracking: The OS keeps track of what you allocate and use
and frees it for you upon exit. Or, if your task dies, you can free
everything it was using, and get everything back.
: This is short description..
: window. A variety of Inter-Process Communication (IPC) facilities are
: supported, including piping and forms of shared memory, as well as a
: brace of options by which processes may "spawn" child-processes, and
: control their operation.
Sounds pretty primitive. As if "spawning processes" was something
never seen outside the Amiga/Unix community since 1.3/whenever...
: Not sure but you can ask Atari MultiTOS experts!
Atari has experts? Who? Nobody who CAN talk WILL until after
release. If the release comes into existence.
: YES!! Sometimes Atari is doing very dumb things!
With that mistake, they ceased to follow in the footsteps of C=. They
now lead the way.
: Many people said Calamus is best in the world and it is nice that
Not. There are far better ones, as any professional could tell you.
However, it is probably the best for the ST.
: people can use Falcon when they buy it! If many software breaks
: like on A600 many people will think money is wasted.
Very little software breaks on the A600. VERY little.
: This is very true so Atari should sell Falcon for $2000 and include
: over $1000 in FREE software!! You have very good idea!
No, they should take the time to develop a few more applications, not
that I consider a rolodex and a clock to be "applications". The point
is that they should have done more work.
: Yes real bus like A600 might be good but Atari is trying to sell
: Falcons for very low price.
At the cost of future expansion capabilites. And they've just limited
their future products by creating a bus standard which isn't a bus,
and shouldn't be standard. Better for them that they support ISA than
support nothing.
: Maybe Atari experts can find out for sure next week.
Maybe. When you find out, do tell.
: Not sure but with expert Next programers Falcon DSP might be
: used very nice! Cannot compare with A600 because you said
: 56001 DSP is not so good so C= did not use it.
The Next doesn't arbitrate the 56001, either. Is that an answer? And
the fact that the DSP isn't the BEST doesn't mean it isn't good, nor
did I say it was the reason C= didn't use it. Using a DSP for audio
generation is a waste of resources. That's why I think Atari should
have done something else.
: Yes if Atari designers consulted you on many things they would not
: make so many mistakes! For many millions of people Atari Falcon 030
Mabye they wouldn't have. Who knows.
: is very good value and many students can learn about DSP and 68030
: and true color and Unix with it.
Why on earth would they learn about Unix? It's nothing like Unix.
Nothing. If you've ever programmed Unix, you'd know... It doesn't
RUN Unix. And "students" who would use the DSP and 68030 probably
already know what they are, correct?
Marc N Barrett
>jyo...@nyx.cs.du.edu (Jeff Young) writes:
>: MANY versions of many programs now running on Falcons. That is very
>: good because many people in England not buying A600s because big
>: percent of software not running on it. Falcon 030 is almost same
>: price as A600 with 2 megabyte chip so C= MUST force better compatable
>: software!
>
>I THINK I've got what you said sorted out. Anyone ever tell you your
>English is really, really bad?
Yes, it's kind of embarassing. I often see poor English on Usenet, but it
is usually from international readers who do not know English very well, but
this does not really mean that they are in any way lacking in intelligence
because I am positive that I would sound a million times worse if I were
forced to get around in a language that was not my native tongue! :-) However,
this Jeff Young guy is most likely an American, probably born and raised here,
which makes me embarassed to think of what the international readers must be
thinking about an American who cannot even speak his own language.
>(: (: (: (: Have you overdosed on smileys today? Why NOT!?! :) :) :) :) :)
>(: "Flesh-pressing: It's not just for politics anymore." :)
>(: gbl...@csd4.csd.uwm.edu Gregory R. Block :)
>(: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
---
| Marc Barrett -MB- | email: bar...@iastate.edu
--------------------------------------------------
"Beware the ides of September..."
Philip McDunnough
[ ]
>
>I THINK I've got what you said sorted out. Anyone ever tell you your
>English is really, really bad? Yes, many versions of many programs
>ARE now running on Falcons. However, they're all ST programs, and
>will get no benefit from the Falcon besides running faster. For
>instance, Calamus (DTP) could benefit greatly from a 256 color screen.
>However, that will require a total rewrite, to be likely.
Apart from saying that I really hope Atari pulls this off (if only to keep
everyone else honest), I must really object to this kind of personal attack
on someone's language skills. This is,in case you don't know, an international
forum (which means not only America) and many people don't have your
obvious shakespearean talents.
Philip McDunnough
University of Toronto
phi...@utstat.toronto.edu
George Francis McBay
>instance, Calamus (DTP) could benefit greatly from a 256 color screen.
>However, that will require a total rewrite, to be likely.
>And I just don't think that's going to happen.
Why? If enough people buy Falcons it will probably happen, one way
or another.
: You must be expert designer because Next, Sunrize, SGI, Turtle Beach
: all use 56001 so maybe they do not have you knowledge! Turtle Beach
>You know very little. The 56001 is not some awesome DSP, there are
>much better ones currently available.
Sure there are better DSP chips available, but the whole point of
the Falcon is low price, it seems obvious they'd use an entry level chip
, then.
>You don't seem to get it: First of all, the reason the Amiga flickers
>is because it's the STANDARD. Televisions, those things you stare at
This is true, but Commodore should support more high-resolution
graphics mode flicker-free, not everyone uses their Amiga for video.
(And don't even mention the ECS modes) I agree that having a non-standard
parallel port would be kind of stupid.
>Having two "sets" of joystick ports is a hack. One set digital only,
>the other digital/analog. Does it ring yet?
Hack? Maybe, but that's two extra digital-only ports that the Amiga
doesn't have. Such things may only be useful for games, but that's one of
the Amiga's biggest selling points. (I know about the '4 joystick adapter' but
I've already got 3 items fighting for my parallel port, thank you)
: You forgot comment about 1.44 drive! People said 2.88 like in new PS/2
: can be used too so this is very good feature.
>It's a lovely feature, I'm sure. But I'd prefer a floptical or a hard
>drive. That's why I have a hard drive now. I rarely use floppies.
I'm sure the Falcon will eventually support flopticals as well,
especially if it does have SCSI-II or at least a port that will make
adding it easy. Hard Drives are not a substitute for High Density Disks,
they are vastly different beasts and I'd love to see HDD on my Amiga.
If nothing else, they'd make it far easier to backup my HardDrive without
needing to buy a Tape drive.
: This is very true so Atari should sell Falcon for $2000 and include
: over $1000 in FREE software!! You have very good idea!
>No, they should take the time to develop a few more applications, not
>that I consider a rolodex and a clock to be "applications". The point
>is that they should have done more work.
How can you judge without having seen the Falcon's OS? A rolodex
program isn't a big deal, but I don't remember getting one with AmigaDOS (Then
again I doubt I'd get a package as powerful as ARexx with MultiTOS..)
>Why on earth would they learn about Unix? It's nothing like Unix.
>Nothing. If you've ever programmed Unix, you'd know... It doesn't
>RUN Unix. And "students" who would use the DSP and 68030 probably
>already know what they are, correct?
Rumor has it that MultiTOS is call-compatible with some unknown
(I've never heard it states..SYSV? BSD?) version of Unix. This really
wouldn't help them learn Unix, though. If anything it would make
a WIDE body of public domain software easily available.. Then again most
Unix programs (Not counting programs that use X or something such as that)
will compile with minimal modification on Amigas with a decent compiler.
Gregory R Block
: Apart from saying that I really hope Atari pulls this off (if only to keep
: everyone else honest), I must really object to this kind of personal attack
It wasn't MEANT to be a personal attack. I was telling him, nicely,
that his English is really, really bad. I often tell my friends they
look like crap if they look like crap, understand?
:on someone's language skills. This is,in case you don't know, an international
: forum (which means not only America) and many people don't have your
: obvious shakespearean talents.
(blush) I'm not that good. ;) Close, but not that good. I just know
a... few big words. ;D
Greg
--
Gregory R Block
: Sure there are better DSP chips available, but the whole point of
: the Falcon is low price, it seems obvious they'd use an entry level chip
: , then.
Yes, but the point is that it's being wasted. For sound generation.
Do you think that's what a DSP was designed to do? Since the system
is making use of it for audio, not many programs will be able to make
use of it without trashing the audio of the system, correct? (if
they're even allowed to use it, it may be OS only. Or, there may be
no arbitration or system functions to access it... etc.)
: This is true, but Commodore should support more high-resolution
: graphics mode flicker-free, not everyone uses their Amiga for video.
: (And don't even mention the ECS modes) I agree that having a non-standard
: parallel port would be kind of stupid.
I won't mention ECS, then. I won't mention that you can program
yourself a mode you're suited for, and I won't mention that the 3000
has a built-in de-interlacer for ~15KHz modes. Better to keep
de-interlaced video to high-end, 'cause the low-end stuff is designed
to be hooked up to a tv, right?
I don't believe "flickering" modes hurt the Amiga. Some do. Most
want it for professional uses. The 3000 is considered to be the
"professional" model, so that takes care of that, doesn't it...
: Hack? Maybe, but that's two extra digital-only ports that the Amiga
: doesn't have. Such things may only be useful for games, but that's one of
:the Amiga's biggest selling points. (I know about the '4 joystick adapter' but
: I've already got 3 items fighting for my parallel port, thank you)
I won't argue that two more ports is good. I'll argue that they
should have ALSO been digital/analog, however.
And as to parallel ports... Just go get a card. :) Fortunately, the
Falcon has no such worries... with one "processor direct slot", don't
plan on using much expansion.
: I'm sure the Falcon will eventually support flopticals as well,
: especially if it does have SCSI-II or at least a port that will make
: adding it easy. Hard Drives are not a substitute for High Density Disks,
: they are vastly different beasts and I'd love to see HDD on my Amiga.
: If nothing else, they'd make it far easier to backup my HardDrive without
: needing to buy a Tape drive.
That's true. :)
: How can you judge without having seen the Falcon's OS? A rolodex
:program isn't a big deal, but I don't remember getting one with AmigaDOS (Then
: again I doubt I'd get a package as powerful as ARexx with MultiTOS..)
2.04 Extras came with a few more apps than a rolodex and an address
book. It had MicroEmacs, pic displayers, etc...
: Rumor has it that MultiTOS is call-compatible with some unknown
: (I've never heard it states..SYSV? BSD?) version of Unix. This really
: wouldn't help them learn Unix, though. If anything it would make
: a WIDE body of public domain software easily available.. Then again most
: Unix programs (Not counting programs that use X or something such as that)
: will compile with minimal modification on Amigas with a decent compiler.
SAS/C 6.0 should be interesting. ;)
Thomas Darling
> : DSP56001
> : 8 channel 16 bit digital DMA, sampling up to 50KHz
> : 4 channel stereo with recording and playback
>
> Anyone notice there's no ST-compatible audio mode here??
Not in the quoted text, but ST (and STe) audio is supported. No, I don't
know the specifics.
> : 262,144 colour palette
> : Max res 640x480 16 bit mode (65,536 colours on screen)
> : SVGA modes up to 256 colours on screen
> : Overscan mode (no black border)
> : 15bit overlay mode for video titling etc.
>
> (None of which usable by available ST software, and how are they
> handling palette translation? The ST had a 512-color palette, the STe
> a 4096-color palette. Backwards-compatible screenmodes aren't listed
> either. What will this do to ST/STe software? Try to fudge the
> palette?)
Well, since Calamus SL, PageStream, WordFlair II, STalker 3.0, STeno, and
Arabesque all work unmodified on the Falcon, I guess they've figured it
out, haven't they?
> And if the max res is 640x480, SVGA goes at least 800x600... But
> they can say that, as there's no standard SVGA, so there's really
> noone to dispute.
This is true, and kind of a pisser, if you ask me.
> Anyone noticed how that's supposed to work? 1, 4, or _14_?
Sam Tramiel (who I wouldn't trust as far as I can throw him, but seems to
know about this stuff) says that those top 2 megs of standard 16 meg ram
have to be masked out in order to preserve ST/STe compatability.
> : Optional 68882
> : Expansion slot for 386PC emulators or JPEG and MPEG data compressors
>
> (Might as well just say "Expansion slot", because none of the boards
> for it exist.
Well, you're wrong. "A few" are being demonstrated along with the machine
at Atari Messe in Germany.
> : stereo microphone
>
> It'll come with a little cheesy mike.
No, it won't. It will come with stereo mike PORTS.
> : monitor
>
> What kind isn't mentioned. I'd imagine it would be a VGA-style, as
> the specs for video look like a wish-me TSENG.
Tramiel says you can use either a standard VGA monitor or one of Atari's
colour monitors with it.
> : midi
>
> Naturally, it's Atari's trademark. Let's hope old midi software
> doesn't break when trying to access the possibly relocated ports, I
> don't imagine they'd be that stupid though.
Cubase 3.0 and C-Lab's new Notator Logic both work on it, apparently.
> And lets hope this time they gave proper ports. Anyone remember the
> hacks for an ST to have MIDI-THRU ports? I sure do.
This is the kind of gripe you only see non-MIDI users haul out. There is
no, I repeat NO reason to have a MIDI THRU on your computer. In every
sequencing or patch-editing application you'd care to use, you want incoming
MIDI auto-chanellized to the sound source you're dealing with at the time.
I imagine some of you folks also think The Connection Machine sucks because
it has no joystick ports.
> : hi speed LAN (no they don't say what)
>
> It's been said that it's LAN through the joystick ports... I HOPE
> that's not it. It also may not have good software support. I don't
> expect it to be AppleTalk-like invisibility, but it may not even be
> usable, who knows.
The spec sheet reads "High speed LocalTalk compatible LAN," for whatever
it's worth. Personally, I'll be amazed if anyone uses it.
> And again, the OS is up in the air with support for that feature.
> Sounds like Atari isn't even done with it, to be honest.
>
> : Joystick & analog joystick
>
> Again, I'd hope so. And a question: How many? Is it one digital
> joystick port and one analog joystick port? Is it two digital, one
> analog, or did they do it right and give you two ports that support
> digital and analog?
Again, the spec sheet:
Two joystick connectors
Two enhanced digital/analog controller/light pen connectors
> : printer port ``more industry standard''
>
> "more" industry standard? Either you are, or you're not. Centronics
> or RS-232 compliant would be good, but I wouldn't expect either from
> Atari, to be honest, they've got a tradition with that.
It's RS-232C.
> Why release it with an ugly case design if they're going to put out a
> system with the same features and a new case later? Sounds kind of
> tacky.
Clearly, to save money and get the thing out the door. Although if they had
to use an existing case design, they could've gone with the Mega's box.
^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\\\^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
Thomas A. Darling \\\ Fact HQ Studio * record production * dance re-mixing
dar...@cellar.org \\\ music for film * The Cellar BBS:215/654-9184 * FACT
v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~\\\~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~
Stephenson Daniel A
nobody but music-o-philes and other nondescripts would care?
Not that I dislike competition form a new machine, but that I am
so surprised at all the posts about the 'Falcon'
--
*Dan Stephenson das...@usl.edu
*"It reminds me of something Cally said. 'He who trusts cannot be
*betrayed, only mistaken.' It was a saying of her people.... Cally is
*dead. So are most of her people." -Avon, from _Rescue_ (Blakes 7)
Jeff Young
>
>And I just don't think that's going to happen.
Sorry it is happening NOW with worldclass midi programs Notator and Cubase!!
>It was a joke referring to having a 68030 with a 32-bit bus.
>
>: YES!! Compare to A600 with no socket or 68030.
>
>Except the Falcon would still be more expensive. And no, of course it
>doesn't have a socket for a 68881/2. It's not an 020/030 machine.
>Makes sense, doesn't it?
NO! Advantage magazine said 68882 socket on board so you are wrong.
Falcon is AT LEAST 4 X faster than A600 and includes much much much
more so price of A600 is very poor value. Compare to Falcon then
A600 should be almost free.
>Not necessarily. I've been looking into it, and it should be possible
>to pull a "baseboard" idea with it, with a little work. And in the
>short term, it'll be cheaper, much cheaper, then a 4mb ram card for
>the PCMCIA connector.
YOU are looking into memory board now??! MANY months passing and
nobody selling cheaps boards for A600 yet? WHY??
IF 1993 comes and no boards come out then A600 is finished.
>
>But to make another comparison, the wish-me bus used by the Falcon
>isn't anywhere near as nice as PCMCIA, which is at least a
>cross-platform expansion system.
YES you wish you has fast Falcon direct slots that people said is
TWICE faster then PC EISA bus. You WISH A600 have anything but
memory cards with terrible price and slow 2400 modem card (high
priced too).
>
>: You must be expert designer because Next, Sunrize, SGI, Turtle Beach
>: all use 56001 so maybe they do not have you knowledge! Turtle Beach
>
>You know very little. The 56001 is not some awesome DSP, there are
>much better ones currently available.
??? What is price of awesome DSP you want??
>It doesn't make them foolish, I'm telling you it's not awesome. It's
>nice, but nothing more.
When you have $700 computer to sell tell everyone specs pleae!
>It's being used for sound generation on the Falcon. Sounds like the
>Paula's handling that just fine. That's the point. It's filling a
>function better left to other things, because anyone can tell you that
>there are better uses for a DSP than to produce sound.
Sorry Paula not doing 16 AND 8 bit stereo DMA like in Falcon. Paula
cannot even do 1.44 floppy!
>It doesn't MATTER if Apple follows it. It's got enough IBM backing
>that Apple means next to nothing.
Ok we are waiting for cheap memory card...WHERE IS IT??
>
>: IF 386 and video cards and ram cards fit in bus then it is good and
>: cheap bus.
>
>The way it sounds, it's not going to be likely you'll see this
>"processor direct slot", and that's more or less what it is, with more
>than one slot per system, as it's not a real bus. No arbitration, bus
>mastering, etc. It's NOT a bus. It's access to motherboard signals.
>And the fact that boards MAY exist doesn't MAKE it a good bus, ISA
>being proof.
Sorry you are wrong again! Advantage magazine said memory slot is
like other slot so ANY kind of 386 or 040 or huge memory board can
go in two slots.
C= waited 2 years to bring out 68040 board but it is ONLY for A3000T
and A3000 people still waiting for board from C=!!
>But Atari isn't giving any video specifications. No mention of
>support for PAL/NTSC signals, no mention of signal quality, no mention
>of specific features generalized by that post. Doesn't sound very
>"video-oriented".
Atari will tell all in few days then everyone will know truth!
>The point is, the Atari blitter is a joke. It doesn't compare to the
>Amiga's blitter, which is actually a bit manipulator.
Sorry you are wroing again!! Advantage magazine with Falcon and
said blitter is doing VERY SPECIAL things now and Atari will
show all at German show. Wait for truth.
>Not for sure. Because many millions of people don't have a use for a DSP.
Sorry you are wrong again!! Even C= said there is many millions of
music people who want powerful music and sound machine. Even in
stereo store almost EVERY thing is including DSP in it. So
entire world will look for low priced Falcons with DSP.
>: Not sure but A600 has invisible Localtalk LAN I think!!
>
>Except they mention the software for it being a separate package...
>If they're going to put network HARDWARE on the system, then they
>should put the SOFTWARE there too. It's kind of a weak, half-hearted
>attempt at competing with Apple's built-in networking capabilities, if
>this is "how it is".
??? IF Apple brags about networking then Atari will brag about MEMORY
PROTECTION and true multitasking and 32 BIT bus and DSP and SCSI @
and IDE and 16 bit stereo DMA and video overlay and ...!!!!!
Sorry Apple better not compare with Atari in commercials or people
will scratch heads and buy millions of Falcons!
>
>: But flicker fixer is $200-$300 custom jobbie too! Even DKB Megachip
>: is $300 custom jobbie so I hope Atari parallel port is FREE!
>
>You don't seem to get it: First of all, the reason the Amiga flickers
>is because it's the STANDARD. Televisions, those things you stare at
Falcon has overscan to TV too and people will not have to buy $200-$300
flicker fixer. A600 has HIDDEN price because if people add up
all things to FIX it then they will find poor value.
>And having a "non-standard parallel port" is a bit different than
>"flickery graphics". You can't really make claims about knowing
>anything about video without knowing stuff like that, you know.
Sorry you are wrong again! Advantage magazine said it is standerd
parallel but is SUPER port so it will be fast and great with
new things Atari will show at German show.
>Doubtful. RCA jacks aren't space-pigs, you know.
Many billions of people have Sony mini headphones so putting in mini
phone is very smart.
>All these compliments are just making me ooze. If I'm an expert
>designer now, maybe by the time I graduate I'll be able to take DH's
>job. :)
C= is looking for people with Falcon 56001 DSP talent!
>Having two "sets" of joystick ports is a hack. One set digital only,
>the other digital/analog. Does it ring yet?
Hello whatRyou? Olympic mascot?? A600 has more than 2 joystick?! WHEN?
>
>: You forgot comment about 1.44 drive! People said 2.88 like in new PS/2
>: can be used too so this is very good feature.
>
>It's a lovely feature, I'm sure. But I'd prefer a floptical or a hard
>drive. That's why I have a hard drive now. I rarely use floppies.
With A600 it is IMPOSSIBLE feature so you better save $$$ for hard drive.
>Probably. However, I still don't see the point of putting BOTH in.
>If low price is the objective, it would be cheaper to cut the throat
>of the worst offender, which, in this case, would be IDE.
Better ask C= what happenend to SCSI2 port in A600!!
>Resource tracking: The OS keeps track of what you allocate and use
>and frees it for you upon exit. Or, if your task dies, you can free
>everything it was using, and get everything back.
Better ask people what is wanted DIG and memory protection or
resource traking! Millions will take Falcon feature.
>Sounds pretty primitive. As if "spawning processes" was something
>never seen outside the Amiga/Unix community since 1.3/whenever...
How come you skip memory protection part??? Amiga community MOVING
TO PC community if 3.0 does not improve features soon.
>Atari has experts? Who? Nobody who CAN talk WILL until after
>release. If the release comes into existence.
German show August 21-23 so experts will tell all soon.
>: Many people said Calamus is best in the world and it is nice that
>
>Not. There are far better ones, as any professional could tell you.
>However, it is probably the best for the ST.
Pagestream on Amiga is better than Calamus?? How come you did
not name better ones? Too hard?!
>Very little software breaks on the A600. VERY little.
WHO is lieing you or Amiga Format magazine?? 30-40% is LITTLE?!
>No, they should take the time to develop a few more applications, not
>that I consider a rolodex and a clock to be "applications". The point
>is that they should have done more work.
You said 10X more on Amiga. OK NAME 40!!
>The Next doesn't arbitrate the 56001, either. Is that an answer? And
>the fact that the DSP isn't the BEST doesn't mean it isn't good, nor
>did I say it was the reason C= didn't use it. Using a DSP for audio
>generation is a waste of resources. That's why I think Atari should
>have done something else.
??? Advantage magzine said DSP in Falcon used for MANY things...cheap
fast modem, fax, IDSN..sorry Paula cannot handle in A600!
Atari is giving software to developers so DSP can be programed to
do many many things.
>: is very good value and many students can learn about DSP and 68030
>: and true color and Unix with it.
>
>Why on earth would they learn about Unix? It's nothing like Unix.
>Nothing. If you've ever programmed Unix, you'd know... It doesn't
>RUN Unix. And "students" who would use the DSP and 68030 probably
>already know what they are, correct?
Sorry you are wrong again!! MultiTOS is very much like unix and
Atari will tell everyone at German show soon.
Markus Juhani Aalto
>>Very little software breaks on the A600. VERY little.
>WHO is lieing you or Amiga Format magazine?? 30-40% is LITTLE?!
I recall that Amiga Format is a game magazine. It may be true that
many games don't work with A600, but I doubt that this is the case
with productivity software, such as text editors, compilers, WP's and
such.
And I suspect that many ST games will fail in Falcon too. Maybe
productivity software won't but games do.
--
**************************************************************************
* Markus Aalto | Helsinki University of Technology *
* | *
* EMail: s37...@vipunen.hut.fi | Faculty of Electric Engineering *
* Fax: 358-0-8746991 (Sometimes) | *
* | Undergraduate in Computer Science *
**************************************************************************
Stefan Taferner
>> It's being used for sound generation on the Falcon. Sounds like the
>> Paula's handling that just fine. That's the point. It's filling a
>> function better left to other things, because anyone can tell you that
>> there are better uses for a DSP than to produce sound.
> Sorry Paula not doing 16 AND 8 bit stereo DMA like in Falcon. Paula
> cannot even do 1.44 floppy!
Paula _can_ access 1.44MB drives, At least the one in the Amiga 3000 can !
The point is, that rarely anybody knows about it. C= even sold some A3000
with 1.44MB drives in them. But also with the older A3000 models (mine is
from July 1991) it's no problem to use 1.44MB drives instead of 720KB drives.
And Kick2.04 is able to handle them correct (so does CrossDOS).
And it's also my opinion, that using a DSP just for sound generation is like
shooting birds with cannons ! (Of course you hit, but what is it good for ?)
---
Stefan staf...@risc.uni-linz.ac.at (Stefan Taferner)
Philip McDunnough
>phi...@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) writes:
>: Apart from saying that I really hope Atari pulls this off (if only to keep
>: everyone else honest), I must really object to this kind of personal attack
>
>It wasn't MEANT to be a personal attack. I was telling him, nicely,
>that his English is really, really bad. I often tell my friends they
>look like crap if they look like crap, understand?
I understand that one doesn't do this before the whole world. I believe it's
called being polite, sensitive, etc...
[ ]
Marc N Barrett
>Paula _can_ access 1.44MB drives, At least the one in the Amiga 3000 can !
The Paula chip in the A3000 is exactly the same chip as the Paula chips in
the very earliest A1000s. The Paula chip cannot access 1.44MB drives in
general; IE: you cannot plug in any old IBM 1.44M drive and use it, as you
can plug in any IBM 720K drive and use it. You have to use special HD drives
that spin the motor at half-speed, so that the old Paula chip can keep up
with the data stream.
>The point is, that rarely anybody knows about it. C= even sold some A3000
>with 1.44MB drives in them. But also with the older A3000 models (mine is
>from July 1991) it's no problem to use 1.44MB drives instead of 720KB drives.
>And Kick2.04 is able to handle them correct (so does CrossDOS).
You are still implying that any 1.44M floppy drive can be plugged into an
A3000 and used. This is totally untrue. Reread what I said above.
>Stefan staf...@risc.uni-linz.ac.at (Stefan Taferner)
Michael van Elst
>NO! Advantage magazine said 68882 socket on board so you are wrong.
>Falcon is AT LEAST 4 X faster than A600 and includes much much much
>more so price of A600 is very poor value. Compare to Falcon then
>A600 should be almost free.
Make that 2.5-3 times as fast...
>YES you wish you has fast Falcon direct slots that people said is
>TWICE faster then PC EISA bus. You WISH A600 have anything but
>memory cards with terrible price and slow 2400 modem card (high
>priced too).
Maybe you can _think_ what cards for the direct slots will cost..
>Sorry you are wroing again!! Advantage magazine with Falcon and
>said blitter is doing VERY SPECIAL things now and Atari will
>show all at German show. Wait for truth.
The Falcon has the same blitter as the ST. BTW, the TT had no blitter
because the 68030 was faster.
>Sorry you are wrong again!! MultiTOS is very much like unix and
>Atari will tell everyone at German show soon.
MultiDOS has nothing more to do with UNIX than original TOS or MSDOS.
Regards,
--
Michael van Elst
UUCP: universe!local-cluster!milky-way!sol!earth!uunet!unido!mpirbn!p554mve
Internet: p55...@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de
"A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."
Gregory R Block
: Not in the quoted text, but ST (and STe) audio is supported. No, I don't
: know the specifics.
Oh well.
: Well, since Calamus SL, PageStream, WordFlair II, STalker 3.0, STeno, and
: Arabesque all work unmodified on the Falcon, I guess they've figured it
: out, haven't they?
I guess so. However, they don't really say how it's done. Do colors
get remapped? etc...
: Sam Tramiel (who I wouldn't trust as far as I can throw him, but seems to
: know about this stuff) says that those top 2 megs of standard 16 meg ram
: have to be masked out in order to preserve ST/STe compatability.
Hmm... (shrug) Whatever, Jack.
: Well, you're wrong. "A few" are being demonstrated along with the machine
: at Atari Messe in Germany.
That's good. At least you'll have something to put in that slot.
Know which ones, out of curiosity?
: No, it won't. It will come with stereo mike PORTS.
PORT. Singular. I think they should at least have used RCA.
And they're going to make peopple go out and buy a cheesy mike.
Great. ;)
: Tramiel says you can use either a standard VGA monitor or one of Atari's
: colour monitors with it.
Yeah, I guessed at that. So it doesn't sync down to 15.75. Sounds
like a _GREAT_ video machine. Not.
: Cubase 3.0 and C-Lab's new Notator Logic both work on it, apparently.
I didn't think they'd relocate the midi ports. :)
: This is the kind of gripe you only see non-MIDI users haul out. There is
: no, I repeat NO reason to have a MIDI THRU on your computer. In every
: sequencing or patch-editing application you'd care to use, you want incoming
: MIDI auto-chanellized to the sound source you're dealing with at the time.
That's not necessarily true, is it? If you don't WANT the computer as
part of the chain under certain circumstances (like you've got
something else) or you've got long midi chains, it can help.
: I imagine some of you folks also think The Connection Machine sucks because
: it has no joystick ports.
Oh, yeah. It doesn't suck. It looks so cool, it's worth buying just
to sit it in your living room. You could say it's modern art... ;)
: The spec sheet reads "High speed LocalTalk compatible LAN," for whatever
: it's worth. Personally, I'll be amazed if anyone uses it.
I wouldn't be surprised if people used it. If they CAN. He mentioned
testing software for AppleTalk protocol. Which probably means it
doesn't come with the Falcon. Like I said, it's STUPID.
: Again, the spec sheet:
:
: Two joystick connectors
: Two enhanced digital/analog controller/light pen connectors
And that's supposed to clear it up?
: It's RS-232C.
You're sure? Tramiel didn't even sound sure.
: Clearly, to save money and get the thing out the door. Although if they had
: to use an existing case design, they could've gone with the Mega's box.
Preferrably, the TT's. They should have lots of THOSE boxes sitting
around.
Gregory R Block
: Sorry it is happening NOW with worldclass midi programs Notator and Cubase!!
Oh, boy...
: NO! Advantage magazine said 68882 socket on board so you are wrong.
(I was referring to the A600 not having a socket for the 68881/2,
because it wouldn't work on a 68000 anyways...)
: Falcon is AT LEAST 4 X faster than A600 and includes much much much
: more so price of A600 is very poor value. Compare to Falcon then
: A600 should be almost free.
Or at least 1/2 the price. And it's there.
: YOU are looking into memory board now??! MANY months passing and
I, yes, I. I was looking at the schematics. Do I look like a
hardware manufacturer? I didn't think so. If _I_ had a 600, _I_
would consider designing a memory expansion board for _MY_ use. Did
you see the "personal" tone in there?
: nobody selling cheaps boards for A600 yet? WHY??
: IF 1993 comes and no boards come out then A600 is finished.
Not. Don't even assume that one little thing will mean the demise of
the A600 just because it's not cheap enough to make you happy. People
will still buy the 600. And boards DO exist, they just have to come
down in price, which happens over TIME. You know, the thing that
watches keep track of.
: YES you wish you has fast Falcon direct slots that people said is
: TWICE faster then PC EISA bus. You WISH A600 have anything but
You shallow idiot. Nearly EVERY personal computer sold by Apple and
the A2000/A3000/A3000T have a processor slot. They've had them for
years.
And they're NO EXCUSE for not having a real bus.
: memory cards with terrible price and slow 2400 modem card (high
: priced too).
The point is, only Falcon developers will develop for that "processor
slot". PCMCIA cards are being developed by IBM and PC-hardware
companies as WELL as Amiga developers.
See the differnce? PCMCIA also has a much larger market, which means
higher sales possibilities, hence more reason to get INTO the market.
: ??? What is price of awesome DSP you want??
Look at what some of the more advanced DSP's can do. Most hardware
mags have something on DSP's in them. Take a look at those.
: When you have $700 computer to sell tell everyone specs pleae!
Considering you really have no idea when it will be sold or how much
it will actually cost, you're AWFULLY confident.
: Sorry Paula not doing 16 AND 8 bit stereo DMA like in Falcon. Paula
: cannot even do 1.44 floppy!
And that suddenly means that it's not possible for a custom chip,
rather than wasting a DSP, couldn't handle audio fed from DMA? The
paula handles DMA just fine, all it needs is more bandwidth.
: Ok we are waiting for cheap memory card...WHERE IS IT??
You waited, what, all of 2 seconds for that? Give it a few months.
(Note: For a CHEAP one. Memory cards DO exist, they're just somewhat
expensive.)
: Sorry you are wrong again! Advantage magazine said memory slot is
: like other slot so ANY kind of 386 or 040 or huge memory board can
: go in two slots.
ARGH!!! You just don't get it, and I'm not going to explain.
: C= waited 2 years to bring out 68040 board but it is ONLY for A3000T
: and A3000 people still waiting for board from C=!!
Why wait? It's NOT C='s job to make a version of every little
peripheral that one could want. Their job is to design systems. It's
what they do. Their job is to design OSes. It's what they do.
: Atari will tell all in few days then everyone will know truth!
Don't forget to post it here so that us poor, unguided fools can see
the light.
: Sorry you are wroing again!! Advantage magazine with Falcon and
: said blitter is doing VERY SPECIAL things now and Atari will
: show all at German show. Wait for truth.
Sure. Whatever.
: Sorry you are wrong again!! Even C= said there is many millions of
: music people who want powerful music and sound machine. Even in
: stereo store almost EVERY thing is including DSP in it. So
: entire world will look for low priced Falcons with DSP.
You have GOT to be kidding. You're sounding more and more like Slu
Aspiks as this post goes on, you know? Suddenly it's gone from many
millions to the entire world. Do you have any idea how much of a jump
in logic that is?
: ??? IF Apple brags about networking then Atari will brag about MEMORY
: PROTECTION and true multitasking and 32 BIT bus and DSP and SCSI @
: and IDE and 16 bit stereo DMA and video overlay and ...!!!!!
They've GOT half of that. They've GOT the 32-bit bus. They've GOT
DSP's that get used for something other than audio. They've GOT SCSI
on board, and they've got no USE for IDE. They've GOT DMA on
higher-end models, and they've GOT 16-bit audio.
Of course, they've also got 24-bit graphics, and the Falcon doesn't.
They've got a matured and relatively well-designed OS, and the
Falcon's may be relatively well-designed, may not, but it is NOT
matured. As a matter of fact, compared to System 7, its relatively
featureless.
: Sorry Apple better not compare with Atari in commercials or people
: will scratch heads and buy millions of Falcons!
You'd have to be dumb to believe that. Besides, everyone knows that
Apple is best known for making indirect comparisons in their commercials.
: Falcon has overscan to TV too and people will not have to buy $200-$300
: flicker fixer. A600 has HIDDEN price because if people add up
: all things to FIX it then they will find poor value.
If the Falcon needs a VGA monitor, then it's not compatible with
video. Overscan will do little good, as will overlay.
: Sorry you are wrong again! Advantage magazine said it is standerd
: parallel but is SUPER port so it will be fast and great with
: new things Atari will show at German show.
Umm, "super port"?
: Many billions of people have Sony mini headphones so putting in mini
: phone is very smart.
Many "billions" of people do not. However, lots of people have stereo
systems they like to hook their systems up to. Professional audio
hardware often uses RCA jacks. Do you see the connection here? It
doesn't make the Falcon look very professional, does it?
: C= is looking for people with Falcon 56001 DSP talent!
First: it's not the "Falcon 56001". It's Motorola's puppy. And I
don't remember them looking for DSP programmers.
: Hello whatRyou? Olympic mascot?? A600 has more than 2 joystick?! WHEN?
Wake up, pal. I'm saying that there's no need for two digital only
ports and two digital/analog when you could have 4 digital/analog.
Especially if they're going to have 4 in there regardless.
: With A600 it is IMPOSSIBLE feature so you better save $$$ for hard drive.
No, it's not. HD drives exist.
: Better ask C= what happenend to SCSI2 port in A600!!
There's no point in putting a SCSI port into a machine targeted to hit
the lowest of low-ends.
: Better ask people what is wanted DIG and memory protection or
: resource traking! Millions will take Falcon feature.
Many would take resource tracking, though it does sound, through the
descriptions, like it has SOME amount of resource tracking. And there
are those who want fast graphics, where DIG would be more of a
limitation than a blessing. Others don't want to slow down message
passing by having memory protection.
: How come you skip memory protection part??? Amiga community MOVING
: TO PC community if 3.0 does not improve features soon.
Like hell. Where do you get off thinking that you somehow have some
"inner knowledge" of the workings of every Amiga owner? I care not
about DIG or MP. Resource tracking, for me, would be far more
valuable. If I want MP, I'll run Unix. Fortunately, if I DO decide
to run unix, we've got SysV.
: Pagestream on Amiga is better than Calamus?? How come you did
: not name better ones? Too hard?!
There are BETTER programs. FrameMaker comes to mind, and it's not
available for the ST OR the Amiga. It's available for Unix under X,
though. Then there's stuff such as Ventura Publisher.
: WHO is lieing you or Amiga Format magazine?? 30-40% is LITTLE?!
Probably Amiga Format. Considering the A600 is no different than my
2000+ECS+2.04. And I'm having nowhere near that much compatibility
problems. As a matter of fact, the only program I had problems with
was Pen Pal, and that was buggy under 1.3.
: You said 10X more on Amiga. OK NAME 40!!
Display
Clock
Say
Commodities Exchange
IHelp
More
AutoPoint
Blanker
HDToolBox
(various VideoAdjust programs)
PrintFiles
MicroEMACS
KeyShow
InitPrinter
IconEdit
GraphicDump
Colors
Calculator
CMD
Fountain
NoCapsLock
Preferences editors:
FONT
ICONTROL
INPUT
OVERSCAN
PALETTE
POINTER
PRINTER
PRINTERGFX
SCREENMODE
SERIAL
TIME
WBCONFIG
WBPATTERN
Is that a better list? And no, that isn't all of them. There are
lots of little programs available through PD, too.
For instance, this really neat program called ClipManager will let you
view any clipboard unit's FTXT CHRS, ANNO, and AUTH chunks, gives you
a list of all clipboard units that are "active", and gives you a scan
of each IFF file. It lets you load and save from IFF and ASCII files.
And it lets you copy data between units and between the clipboard and
HotLinks.
Better?
: ??? Advantage magzine said DSP in Falcon used for MANY things...cheap
: fast modem, fax, IDSN..sorry Paula cannot handle in A600!
: Atari is giving software to developers so DSP can be programed to
: do many many things.
But it can't do them ALL AT ONCE. To use the DSP as a modem you have
to give up having audio in OR out. To use it to modify audio in
realtime, you can't play it in realtime. Do you see its limitations
yet? One of the DSP's best uses is the modification of data, like
fast fourier transforms & stuff. If you want to put sound into the
machine, modify it in realtime, and put it out in realtime, you can't.
Because the modification, audio recording, and audio playback all
require use of the DSP.
: Sorry you are wrong again!! MultiTOS is very much like unix and
: Atari will tell everyone at German show soon.
Like and equal are two different things. Learning about MultiTos will
NOT teach them unix. Period.
Ed Brown
> >>Very little software breaks on the A600. VERY little.
> >WHO is lieing you or Amiga Format magazine?? 30-40% is LITTLE?!
Most European game programmers want to do the greatest whiz-bang software
possible, so they tend to be pretty lax in following CBMs programming
guidelines. When new hardware or OS versions come out, such software tends
to self destruct. This is NOT CBMs problem or doing. It is incumbent upon
the software authors to make their programs conform to minimum standards so
that their programs do not break with new OS versions or new hardware. CBM
can only prevent such probs from their end, not from the programming end.
Oh, well... wild and wooley programmers HAVE been warned many times. Some
STILL seem not to have gotten the message.
*======================================================================*
|Edward E. Brown II | Internet: e...@pro-freedom.cts.com |
|Chemist On A Mission From GOD! | UUCP: clark.edu!pro-freedom!eeb|
|Vancouver, WA, USA, N.Amer, Earth| FidoNet: 1:105/135 |
|---------------------------------|---//-------------------------------|
|"Back off man, I'm a scientist!" | \X/ A3000 - UNIX/MSDOS/MacDOS/ADOS |
*======================================================================*
Stefan Taferner
Marc Barrett writes:
---- including article ---------
>Stefan staf...@risc.uni-linz.ac.at (Stefan Taferner)
----- end of included article --------
A friend of mine bought his A3000 in may 1992. He got it with a hd-drive in
it. It is a Chinon drive, don't ask about the product number.
And this drive can simply be used on DD disks as on HD disks. Without any
switches or something like this. So, does this drive access HD disks on
halve rotational speed ?
---
Stefan Taferner
RISC, J.K. University of Linz, Austria
staf...@risc.uni-linz.ac.at (Stefan Taferner)
K30...@alijku11.bitnet
Yes, this Chinon-drive, is the only system-friendly way to use HD-Disks
on the Amiga| Chinon is the "main-diskdrive-manufacturer" for C=.
From what i know today, there is no other drive on the market, that is able
to run with half speed, so that Paula can handle the data-transfer|
The trick is: there are twice the numbers of sectores on a Amiga-HD-disk, and
when the disk spinns with half the speed, you get the same amount of data per
second, and so you can use the old Paula| But several problems caused C= not
to support or announce the new HD-drives| Kick 2.04 has problems to notice
it when you change from a DD to a HD disk| It doesn't recognice this every
time| But there is a PD-utility called HD-Fixer, that solves this problem,
it can be found on Fish-Disk 690| Run this tool in background, and it tells
the OS every time, the disk type (DD or HD) has changed, that it has to use
the new routines for HD-drives.
I think C= will officially support and include these Chinon-drives in ALL
Amiga-modells as soon as Kick2.04 (or wathever version will come) has been
corrected (maybe a new SetPatch??? Who knows?) to recognice the DD-HD disk
change|
rk :)
r...@gup.uni-linz.ac.at
P.S.: To Stefan: Ich hab Dir das alles doch schon mal erzaehlt, oder?
Oder wolltest Du einfach auch die Meinung anderer Leute zu dem Thema wissen,
oder vertraust Du mir einfach nicht? ;-)
Alan Braggins
> Apart from saying that I really hope Atari pulls this off (if only to keep
> everyone else honest), I must really object to this kind of personal attack
> on someone's language skills. This is,in case you don't know, an international
> forum (which means not only America) and many people don't have your
> obvious shakespearean talents.
jyo...@nyx.cs.du.edu (Jeff Young) is a pretty American looking address.
I think he's kind of fun - not as subtle as BLAZEMONGER, but he has a certain
naive charm. Then again this site (sdl.mdcbbs.com) isn't American, in spite of
the .com address.
I'm looking forward to seeing the Falcon, but think the steady drop in PC
prices is far more likely to kill off the Amiga in the long run if anything
does. I'm still glad I got mine not a PC though.
--
Alan Braggins, Shape Data (A Division of EDS Ltd), Cambridge, UK +44-223-316673
"Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
"My employer does not necessarily share my views - but I'm working on it."
Alan Braggins
> Rumor has it that MultiTOS is call-compatible with some unknown
> (I've never heard it states..SYSV? BSD?) version of Unix. This really
BSD would probably be easier since there is more freely usable source.
Might mean POSIX compliance, which is very different from Unix like.
> wouldn't help them learn Unix, though. If anything it would make
> a WIDE body of public domain software easily available.. Then again most
> Unix programs (Not counting programs that use X or something such as that)
> will compile with minimal modification on Amigas with a decent compiler.
And one of a number of Unix emulation libraries. However, an X server is
also available for the Amiga, so there is no need to rule out such programs.
Of course ones that make assumptions about the numbers of colors available
won't work - have to wait and see what the new chip set does about that :-)
Gregory R Block
: I understand that one doesn't do this before the whole world. I believe it's
: called being polite, sensitive, etc...
Polite, fine. But sensitive? Me? Next you'll be telling me to use
hand lotion and to keep myself prim and proper. Then you'll be
telling me that I should be married, I suppose...
Sensitive? NEVER!!!!! Men of the world, UNITE!!!!
(big grin)
Gregory R Block
: You are totally wrong on this one Greg. Video devices have VDI
: drivers (I am making the assumption you know what a driver is) for GEM.
It's a good assumption.
: Calamus and such are GEM applications so they can be run on any video
: board that has a driver. Calamus already works with 256 colors on the
: plain ol' ST if you have one of the 3rd party video boards like 'Crazy
: Dots' and such.
Thans for the info, despite the tone of it.
Howard Chu
>jyo...@nyx.cs.du.edu (Jeff Young) writes:
>: People said these are true specs of Falcon! IF 500 Pound price == $500-$700
>: in America, Sydnes MUST know new information to make new Amigas!!
>
>Just a few backwards-compatible thoughts.
According to some other reviews (article in Atari Advantage mag, for one) the
Falcon is fully backward-compatible, i.e., it still supports all the older
video and audio modes.
>
>: first models expected in UK September
>: to be shown at London trade show - September 6.
>
>: 68030 @ 16 MHz
>: DSP56001
>: 8 channel 16 bit digital DMA, sampling up to 50KHz
>: 4 channel stereo with recording and playback
>
>Anyone notice there's no ST-compatible audio mode here??
Both the Yamaha 2149 and the STe's 8-bit audio are supported.
>
>(None of which usable by available ST software, and how are they
>handling palette translation? The ST had a 512-color palette, the STe
>a 4096-color palette. Backwards-compatible screenmodes aren't listed
>either. What will this do to ST/STe software? Try to fudge the
>palette?)
All the old ST and STe graphics modes are still supported.
>
>And if the max res is 640x480, SVGA goes at least 800x600... But
>they can say that, as there's no standard SVGA, so there's really
>noone to dispute.
>
>"Overscan mode" caught my eye. It's not selectable? One set size for
>overscan? And they're sure this is a video machine?
I was wondering about that as well. But 800x600 in overscan mode has been
quoted in a number of places, so I'm not gonna argue that one.
>
>"15-bit overlay". I'm curious. That's about it. Not much mention on
>exactly what it's good for... Can you select any 15-bit value as
>being transparent? (ECS allows any color register to be the
>transparent value. See, that's technology. ;)
Dunno. Not explained in a way that I understood.
>
>: MultiTOS
>
>Which really says nothing, since nobody REALLY knows what it is. Just
>that it "is like UNIX", which might mean it has 10 different functions
>for the same operation and is lots larger than it should be, or that
>it'll have lots of bugs for at least 5 versions and 4 releases. (SYSV
>joke) And it's pre-emptive.
>
>Doesn't really say much about the OS, does it?
Based on MiNT, which a lot of us in ST land are already familiar with. MiNT
provides a number of BSD-style system calls, dynamically loadable filesystem
drivers, lots of other good stuff. And it's nowhere near as bloated as Unix.
All in all, it's a Good Thing.
>
>: 1.44 MB Floppy
>
>This is redeeming, while...
>
>: IDE port for internal 2.5in 44MB hard drive
>
>Remember this. Because later on...
>
>: RAM: 1,4 or 14 MB
>
>Anyone noticed how that's supposed to work? 1, 4, or _14_?
Yeah, seems a little cheesy to me. Like, mebbe they were still thinking of
living in a 24 bit 68000 address space. Dunno why.
>
>: Optional 68882
>: Expansion slot for 386PC emulators or JPEG and MPEG data compressors
>
>(Might as well just say "Expansion slot", because none of the boards
>for it exist. Also notice, there's only one. Which means, if you
>want a 386 and MPEG, you get two Falcons.)
Piggyback boards, just like certain piggyback cartridges for the Atari 800.
No big deal.
>
>: Ports
>: SCSI II with DMA
>
>And here's where I get curious. Why include IDE on the motherboard if
>they've got a SCSI II chipset on-board? I have a feeling that it's
>just another DMA port which has been designed to have enough bandwidth
>for the information which would be passed by an external SCSI-II.
>
>Also, it may not have FAST or WIDE SCSI-II implementation, not many
>do. Actually, I'd say it's likely it doesn't have fast or wide.
It's likely that it supports fast mode. Dunno about wide mode. Otherwise,
if it as you describe "enough bandwidth for ..." there is no distinction
from SCSI-1.
>
>: stereo microphone
>
>It'll come with a little cheesy mike. Great. Audiophiles will blow
>chunks and bolt. :) Seriously, it doesn't say whether this will get
>any use. It may be up to the application to handle using the DSP to
>get the information in.
>
>: audio out
>
>I'd hope so.
>
>: monitor
>
>What kind isn't mentioned. I'd imagine it would be a VGA-style, as
>the specs for video look like a wish-me TSENG.
Any currently existing Atari monitor, any multi-scan monitor. No hassles there.
>
>: midi
>
>Naturally, it's Atari's trademark. Let's hope old midi software
>doesn't break when trying to access the possibly relocated ports, I
>don't imagine they'd be that stupid though. And lets hope this time
>they gave proper ports. Anyone remember the hacks for an ST to have
>MIDI-THRU ports? I sure do.
>
>: hi speed LAN (no they don't say what)
>
>It's been said that it's LAN through the joystick ports... I HOPE
>that's not it. It also may not have good software support. I don't
>expect it to be AppleTalk-like invisibility, but it may not even be
>usable, who knows.
Nope, thru an additional serial port. They include the Zilog 8530 SCC, just
like Mega STe and TT.
>
>And again, the OS is up in the air with support for that feature.
>Sounds like Atari isn't even done with it, to be honest.
The hardware has been around for ages. Appletalk software, well ...
>
>: Joystick & analog joystick
>
>Again, I'd hope so. And a question: How many? Is it one digital
>joystick port and one analog joystick port? Is it two digital, one
>analog, or did they do it right and give you two ports that support
>digital and analog?
Two original ST ports, i.e., digital joystick/mouse ports. Two additional
STe compatible analog ports.
>
>: printer port ``more industry standard''
>
>"more" industry standard? Either you are, or you're not. Centronics
>or RS-232 compliant would be good, but I wouldn't expect either from
>Atari, to be honest, they've got a tradition with that.
Centronics, as before. Older STs only supported the Busy line, this port
also supports ACK and Select, as I recall. Still bi-directional, as before.
>
>: working name was Sparrow
>
>Because it's going to be eaten by the panther. :)
>
>: 50 machines worldwide many at top software houses in UK (I presume
>: others are in D :-) )
>
>Wow. 50 machines. Only 2,999,950 to go until it's where the Amiga
>was about a year ago... ;)
Developers' machines. Geeze, get a grip, eh? }-)
>
>: Atari Germany ``at least one model above and below Falcon030 including
>: 68040''
>
>I think going "one below" would be a bad idea. Don't remove any more
>features from this relatively-featureless machine, to be honest. Did
>you notice you listed more ports and video modes than you did features?
Hm. What is your distinction between "features" and all of these various
(for lack of a better word) features?
>
>: price == 499 UK pounds
>: new case design next April
>
>Why release it with an ugly case design if they're going to put out a
>system with the same features and a new case later? Sounds kind of
>tacky.
Yeah, I agree. Mebbe it was just the only case they had on hand.
>
>Anyways, just thought I'd make that little commentary. The Falcon has
>already lost much of the glory of the original posts with this one.
>Not nearly as flashy as was thought, is it?
Dunno, I still like the sound of it. Would prefer a better case design,
that's about all I'd take exception to for now. Certainly the "one below"
model better not be missing any features, nor should it run slower than
the current speed. I guess, given that constraint, I can't really picture
what a one below model would offer. Oh well.
--
-- Howard Chu @ Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
::To the owner of the blue Mazda, license 742-XLT, your headlights are on...::
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Gregory G Greene
>
> >WHO is lieing you or Amiga Format magazine?? 30-40% is LITTLE?!
>
>
>I recall that Amiga Format is a game magazine. It may be true that
>many games don't work with A600, but I doubt that this is the case
>with productivity software, such as text editors, compilers, WP's and
>such.
I think its safe to say that alot of A600's are going to be bought for
playing games, not running productivity software. So having a lot of
games break on the A600 doesn't make much sense.
G.Greene
Howard Chu
>The Falcon has the same blitter as the ST. BTW, the TT had no blitter
>because the 68030 was faster.
No, the Falcon's Blitter is a new 32 bit design. The ST's was only 16 bit.
The new blitter is supposed to have several new functions. We'll see.
>
>MultiDOS has nothing more to do with UNIX than original TOS or MSDOS.
Multi*TOS* is certainly not Unix. But it provides the same level of multi-
tasking control as Unix. Most BSD system calls exist in the same form, although
the weird DOSish PExec calls had to be preserved. This means that there are
about two dozen different ways to spawn a program now, oh joy. (Actually, it's
really not that bad, there are good reasons for each of the available modes,
really.)
Howard Chu
>jyo...@nyx.cs.du.edu (Jeff Young) writes:
>: YES you wish you has fast Falcon direct slots that people said is
>: TWICE faster then PC EISA bus. You WISH A600 have anything but
>
>You shallow idiot. Nearly EVERY personal computer sold by Apple and
>the A2000/A3000/A3000T have a processor slot. They've had them for
>years.
>
>And they're NO EXCUSE for not having a real bus.
Higher model will have VME bus, probably full 32/32, but might just be
A24/D16 like Mega STe and TT. Dunno.
>
>: memory cards with terrible price and slow 2400 modem card (high
>: priced too).
>
>The point is, only Falcon developers will develop for that "processor
>slot". PCMCIA cards are being developed by IBM and PC-hardware
>companies as WELL as Amiga developers.
>
>See the differnce? PCMCIA also has a much larger market, which means
>higher sales possibilities, hence more reason to get INTO the market.
There's also nothing stopping us from putting a VME master into the
processor-direct slot. I don't think this is a serious issue.
(O, btw, sorry for barging in on this little conversation.... }-)
>
>: Sorry Paula not doing 16 AND 8 bit stereo DMA like in Falcon. Paula
>: cannot even do 1.44 floppy!
>
>And that suddenly means that it's not possible for a custom chip,
>rather than wasting a DSP, couldn't handle audio fed from DMA? The
>paula handles DMA just fine, all it needs is more bandwidth.
Actually, the Falcon's 8-bit DMA stereo is just using the STe's sound chip.
Nothing new there.
>
>: Sorry you are wrong again!! Even C= said there is many millions of
>: music people who want powerful music and sound machine. Even in
>: stereo store almost EVERY thing is including DSP in it. So
>: entire world will look for low priced Falcons with DSP.
>
>You have GOT to be kidding. You're sounding more and more like Slu
>Aspiks as this post goes on, you know? Suddenly it's gone from many
>millions to the entire world. Do you have any idea how much of a jump
>in logic that is?
>
Well, truth maybe somewhere in between here. Given the choice between
spending $1300 on a hot new Yamaha DSP E-1000 dolby prologic processor with
8 channel digital surround, and a $700 Falcon with DSP, I'll take the
Falcon and write my own dolby decoder (if it comes to that. I'm sure someone
else will beat me to it.) it doesn't take much DSP horsepower to handle
dolby surround processing, I'm sure folks will find plenty of other good
uses for the thing easily enough.
>: ??? IF Apple brags about networking then Atari will brag about MEMORY
>: PROTECTION and true multitasking and 32 BIT bus and DSP and SCSI @
>: and IDE and 16 bit stereo DMA and video overlay and ...!!!!!
>
>They've GOT half of that. They've GOT the 32-bit bus. They've GOT
>DSP's that get used for something other than audio. They've GOT SCSI
>on board, and they've got no USE for IDE. They've GOT DMA on
>higher-end models, and they've GOT 16-bit audio.
Heh. Good ol' Apple, always giving ya half of what ya want. }-)
(Personally, I don't see why the IDE drive is there. It really makes no
sense at all to me, tho mebbe SCSI drives in that form factor and capacity
weren't available yet?) What else ya wanna use the DSP for - video? Floating
point number crunching? There's nothing *preventing* you from doing that in
the Falcon. I'm sure the sound capabilities are only being touted because
those are what most people will most easily identify with. Many people know
that the NeXT used the same system for their audio. Most people are being
exposed to the term in context of home audio. I don't think there's anything
wrong with riding on that recognition...
>
>Of course, they've also got 24-bit graphics, and the Falcon doesn't.
>They've got a matured and relatively well-designed OS, and the
>Falcon's may be relatively well-designed, may not, but it is NOT
>matured. As a matter of fact, compared to System 7, its relatively
>featureless.
Hm. I have always had a problem with what people have called "the Mac OS."
Or rather, bundling in features that are rightfully application-level into
the underlying operating system. I'm pretty certain that MultiTOS (Ok, MiNT,
which I've actually worked on) provides more operating-system level capabilities
than System 7. Things like subscribe/post etc. can be implemented on top of
that easily enough, but don't properly belong in the kernel, In My Opinion...
>
>: Falcon has overscan to TV too and people will not have to buy $200-$300
>: flicker fixer. A600 has HIDDEN price because if people add up
>: all things to FIX it then they will find poor value.
>
>If the Falcon needs a VGA monitor, then it's not compatible with
>video. Overscan will do little good, as will overlay.
Multiscan, VGA, composite, and even RF are all supported. Even on my circa-1987
Mega ST I get 832 horizontal resolution using overscan, even on my Sony TV.
(Granted, XBR TV, composite input. Not really feasible for RF...)
>
>: Many billions of people have Sony mini headphones so putting in mini
>: phone is very smart.
>
>Many "billions" of people do not. However, lots of people have stereo
>systems they like to hook their systems up to. Professional audio
>hardware often uses RCA jacks. Do you see the connection here? It
>doesn't make the Falcon look very professional, does it?
I'm undecided on this one. The STe has RCA audio jacks, but for all the
cables coming out of this box I think I'd prefer the single cable minijack.
I already have several mini-to-RCA adapters so it's not an issue to me.
>
>: Hello whatRyou? Olympic mascot?? A600 has more than 2 joystick?! WHEN?
>
>Wake up, pal. I'm saying that there's no need for two digital only
>ports and two digital/analog when you could have 4 digital/analog.
>Especially if they're going to have 4 in there regardless.
The digital ports are the old-style 9-pin ports. The analog ports are
15-pin. There's really no practical way to provide both on one port and
remain compatible with all the literally millions of digital joysticks
out there.
>
>: Better ask C= what happenend to SCSI2 port in A600!!
>
>There's no point in putting a SCSI port into a machine targeted to hit
>the lowest of low-ends.
Every machine oughta have room to grow, eh? Not like the MacPlus or PS/1...
>
>: Better ask people what is wanted DIG and memory protection or
>: resource traking! Millions will take Falcon feature.
>
>Many would take resource tracking, though it does sound, through the
>descriptions, like it has SOME amount of resource tracking. And there
>are those who want fast graphics, where DIG would be more of a
>limitation than a blessing. Others don't want to slow down message
>passing by having memory protection.
Full resource tracking. I can't conceive of even trying to multitask
without it. Geeze, what a nightmare.... Also, while message-passing can
be implemented simply enough, I think it's faster to go with shared
memory. (In MiNT, any process can mark a region of its memory as sharable,
or give it up outright to some other userID. I haven't quite figured out
when I would want to give some other process some of my memory and give
up my access rights to it, but the capability is there.)
>
>: You said 10X more on Amiga. OK NAME 40!!
>
<list of trivial software deleted>
This sounds pretty much like the stock set of entries in a Control Panel
desk accessory, with the exception of MicroEMACS. I'm not sure if I'd
package MicroEMACS (or any version of EAMCS, for that matter) with a low
end system, but it's readily available, as you say. As is the full GNU version.
>
>: ??? Advantage magzine said DSP in Falcon used for MANY things...cheap
>: fast modem, fax, IDSN..sorry Paula cannot handle in A600!
>: Atari is giving software to developers so DSP can be programed to
>: do many many things.
>
>But it can't do them ALL AT ONCE. To use the DSP as a modem you have
>to give up having audio in OR out. To use it to modify audio in
>realtime, you can't play it in realtime. Do you see its limitations
>yet? One of the DSP's best uses is the modification of data, like
>fast fourier transforms & stuff. If you want to put sound into the
>machine, modify it in realtime, and put it out in realtime, you can't.
>Because the modification, audio recording, and audio playback all
>require use of the DSP.
This remains to be seen. My impression was that audio input was not
dependent on the DSP, which frees up one sticking point. The rest does
seem like a difficult problem. It would certainly be of little use to
be unable to support ISDN in concert with various other operations.
>
>: Sorry you are wrong again!! MultiTOS is very much like unix and
>: Atari will tell everyone at German show soon.
>
>Like and equal are two different things. Learning about MultiTos will
>NOT teach them unix. Period.
Depends on what you mean by "teach them unix." If you mean, can I take
software off comp.sources.unix and compile and run it, the answer is "yes."
If you mean, can I use something like the Bourne shell or C shell, or ksh
or bash, the answer is also yes. Can I start up pipelines from the command
line, have BSD-style job control - yes. If you mean, can I look at the
MiNT source code and gain an understanding of 4.3 BSD internals, the answer
is, definitely not, things are obviously going to be very different. Of
course, I can already do all of the above on my current STs, running MiNT
and the suite of GNU utilities.
Gee. Atari may have a GNU system out before the FSF. What a hoot...
George Francis McBay
> I think its safe to say that alot of A600's are going to be bought for
> playing games, not running productivity software. So having a lot of
> games break on the A600 doesn't make much sense.
Yes, but this is in no way Commodore's fault. It is the fault of
all the lousy game programmers who do not listen to guidelines, and don't
mind having a target audience of 1.3 68000 A500 users (They are slowly coming
around as 1.3 A500s are becoming rarer and rarer)
Bo Najdrovsky
>
> : Here's the specs on the Atari Falcon 030:
> :
> : CPU: Motorola 68030 running at 16 Mhz
> : 32-bit Bus
I just find it a bit ironic, that while Atari is finally coming out with
a 16 MHz 68030 machine, Commodore is already droping the 16 MHz product in
favor of the 25 MHz machines.
I must say that I concur with Gregory on his assesment of the Falcon. I
don't think that the A4000 has anything to worry about. It seems to me
that Atari just rushed it to the market too fast (like the orig. ST) and
the product shows it. Also, how does a company expect to seriously compete
in the PROFESSIONAL market when their top of the line computer has
an OPTIONAL hard drive??? I don't think that any office would want to
run a computer off floppies these days. Imagine buying an A3000 without
a hard disk. Sort of a damper on performance, don't you think?
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Bo Najdrovsky b...@mndcrme.uoknor.edu b...@okcforum.uoknor.edu| // |
| | // |
| "I remember now, I remember how it started..." | \X/ AMIGA |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gregory R Block
: Higher model will have VME bus, probably full 32/32, but might just be
: A24/D16 like Mega STe and TT. Dunno.
That's really stupid of them. I'm not giving them a break on this
one. They're intro machine has practically zero bus, and they're
going to save a real general purpose bus for the higher end. If
they'd have a UNIVERSAL standard for a bus or something, it would be
much better. Look at the Amiga line. There's the 500, and there's
Zorro II. And the 500 can be made Zorro II compatible. Zorro III is
fully backwards-compatible with Zorro II.
It would be wiser to introduce an across-the-platform bus to help
their developers get as large a market as possible, as fast as
possible.
That "processor slot" may not be compatible across the line if
different motherboard designs, different chips, or different main
processors are used.
: There's also nothing stopping us from putting a VME master into the
: processor-direct slot. I don't think this is a serious issue.
: (O, btw, sorry for barging in on this little conversation.... }-)
No problem. It is a serious issue. Yes, I imagine you could put some
sort of backplane into the processor-direct slot, possibly. The point
is, it's not there. It's not being designed with that in mind. And
that could be a big mistake.
I sure as hell won't buy a computer without a bus. I didn't like the
fact that the 500 was pretty unexpandable. I wanted a general purpose
bus with a coupl'a slots. That's why I picked up the 2000 instead,
plunking down the extra dough.
A lot of people feel the same way.
: Actually, the Falcon's 8-bit DMA stereo is just using the STe's sound chip.
: Nothing new there.
So they DO have the old sound chip and the DSP. Well, at least I know
now.
: Well, truth maybe somewhere in between here. Given the choice between
: spending $1300 on a hot new Yamaha DSP E-1000 dolby prologic processor with
: 8 channel digital surround, and a $700 Falcon with DSP, I'll take the
: Falcon and write my own dolby decoder (if it comes to that. I'm sure someone
: else will beat me to it.) it doesn't take much DSP horsepower to handle
: dolby surround processing, I'm sure folks will find plenty of other good
: uses for the thing easily enough.
I'm sure they will. Provided there's some standard way to access the
DSP. Otherwise, every app will walk all over every other app. The OS
won't be able to use audio outputs because an application is using the
DSP, only the OS doesn't know it... Lots of things can go wrong. If
it's not done "right".
: Heh. Good ol' Apple, always giving ya half of what ya want. }-)
: (Personally, I don't see why the IDE drive is there. It really makes no
: sense at all to me, tho mebbe SCSI drives in that form factor and capacity
: weren't available yet?) What else ya wanna use the DSP for - video? Floating
: point number crunching? There's nothing *preventing* you from doing that in
: the Falcon. I'm sure the sound capabilities are only being touted because
For instance, let's say you have 8 samples you want to play through
one channel. You can do it. You have the DSP sum all the samples in
realtime and then have the OS play the summed data... Oops. That
doesn't work, because to do that requires that the OS own the dsp. Or
the OS tries and screws up your realtime-summing. So basically,
you're forced to having to do the summing AND to play it. And if any
other application, since this IS a pre-emptive multitasking system,
wants to use the DSP, say, an Engineering program that wants to use
the DSP for some FFT's, well, I don't know what happens.
But it might not be pretty.
: those are what most people will most easily identify with. Many people know
: that the NeXT used the same system for their audio. Most people are being
: exposed to the term in context of home audio. I don't think there's anything
: wrong with riding on that recognition...
Again, it all depends on how they do it. And there's already some
stiff limitations in it because it's being used for a main function of
the system: all audio output (that isn't forcing its way into using
ST-compatible sound chips).
: Hm. I have always had a problem with what people have called "the Mac OS."
: Or rather, bundling in features that are rightfully application-level into
: the underlying operating system. I'm pretty certain that MultiTOS (Ok, MiNT,
:whichI've actually worked on)provides more operating-system level capabilities
: than System 7. Things like subscribe/post etc. can be implemented on top of
: that easily enough, but don't properly belong in the kernel, In My Opinion...
No, but features like that DO belong in an operating system. For
instance, HotLinks is similar. You publish, and your other apps
subscribe, and they get updates. However, it's not a part of the OS.
It should be. Just like clipboards should be. Just like
interapplication communication should be. They're basic features that
allow communication between application and application and between
application and user. They belong in the OS.
The kernel is another story. ;)
:Multiscan,VGA, composite, and even RF are all supported. Even on my circa-1987
: Mega ST I get 832 horizontal resolution using overscan, even on my Sony TV.
: (Granted, XBR TV, composite input. Not really feasible for RF...)
So it handles at least 15.75-31.5. At least interesting. Are all
resolutions available in 15.75 and 31.5? Or just the old,
compatibility modes.
: I'm undecided on this one. The STe has RCA audio jacks, but for all the
: cables coming out of this box I think I'd prefer the single cable minijack.
: I already have several mini-to-RCA adapters so it's not an issue to me.
: The digital ports are the old-style 9-pin ports. The analog ports are
: 15-pin. There's really no practical way to provide both on one port and
: remain compatible with all the literally millions of digital joysticks
: out there.
It uses 15-pin analog? Well, that explains the extra two ports,
thanks. No more arguments from me except to say that it's pretty
brain damaged, you can get 9-pin analog. For instance, the Amiga's
9-pin offers analog/digital/light-pen input...
: Every machine oughta have room to grow, eh? Not like the MacPlus or PS/1...
Maybe: Nobody will deny the MacPlus had its place. However, if you
want to give a system room to grow, keep the features to the lowest
cost necessary ones, (IE probably throw out SCSI II and keep IDE) and
add a real expansion bus. With several slots. That way, they can ADD
whatever they want without having to use the One And Only Slot.
: Full resource tracking. I can't conceive of even trying to multitask
I can. :)
: without it. Geeze, what a nightmare.... Also, while message-passing can
: be implemented simply enough, I think it's faster to go with shared
: memory. (In MiNT, any process can mark a region of its memory as sharable,
: or give it up outright to some other userID. I haven't quite figured out
: when I would want to give some other process some of my memory and give
: up my access rights to it, but the capability is there.)
Oh, there's quite a few reasons... A certain Russell McOrmond found
out lots of good reasons to pass memory around back and forth and back
and forth... ;)
: This sounds pretty much like the stock set of entries in a Control Panel
: desk accessory, with the exception of MicroEMACS. I'm not sure if I'd
: package MicroEMACS (or any version of EAMCS, for that matter) with a low
:end system, but it's readily available, as you say. As is the full GNU version
Of course.
: This remains to be seen. My impression was that audio input was not
: dependent on the DSP, which frees up one sticking point. The rest does
: seem like a difficult problem. It would certainly be of little use to
: be unable to support ISDN in concert with various other operations.
Yes, I'd agree. Of course, the I'm Slow and Dumb network has problems
of its own... ;) (it's a joke, you pro-lifers. ;)
: Depends on what you mean by "teach them unix." If you mean, can I take
: software off comp.sources.unix and compile and run it, the answer is "yes."
It's "Most Likely". Because it's probably not 100% compatible with
BSD's calls... 99.5 at best. After all, it's not BSD. :)
Though it does sound rather interesting, I still refute that the
Falcon has lost much of the glory it was first given...
Greg
Dr Peter Kittel Germany
>
> A friend of mine bought his A3000 in may 1992. He got it with a hd-drive in
> it. It is a Chinon drive, don't ask about the product number.
> And this drive can simply be used on DD disks as on HD disks. Without any
> switches or something like this. So, does this drive access HD disks on
> halve rotational speed ?
Simple answer: Yes.
--
Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions...
Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
or pet...@public.sub.org
Skip Sauls
>h...@hanauma.jpl.nasa.gov (Howard Chu) writes:
>: Higher model will have VME bus, probably full 32/32, but might just be
>: A24/D16 like Mega STe and TT. Dunno.
>
>That's really stupid of them. I'm not giving them a break on this
>one. They're intro machine has practically zero bus, and they're
>going to save a real general purpose bus for the higher end. If
>they'd have a UNIVERSAL standard for a bus or something, it would be
>much better. Look at the Amiga line. There's the 500, and there's
>Zorro II. And the 500 can be made Zorro II compatible. Zorro III is
>fully backwards-compatible with Zorro II.
Then there's the A600 which has a bus from a PC. :-)
>It would be wiser to introduce an across-the-platform bus to help
>their developers get as large a market as possible, as fast as
>possible.
Zorro III is nice, too bad it is not popular. Until there are enough
machines with the Zorro III bus we'll probably see more Zorro II cards
than anything else.
>That "processor slot" may not be compatible across the line if
>different motherboard designs, different chips, or different main
>processors are used.
Uh, I hope that I'm wrong but the A3400/A4000 or whatever may not
have an A3000/A3000T compatible CPU slot. It may have the same
number of pins, but the form factor has certainly changed.
>: There's also nothing stopping us from putting a VME master into the
>: processor-direct slot. I don't think this is a serious issue.
>: (O, btw, sorry for barging in on this little conversation.... }-)
>
>No problem. It is a serious issue. Yes, I imagine you could put some
>sort of backplane into the processor-direct slot, possibly. The point
>is, it's not there. It's not being designed with that in mind. And
>that could be a big mistake.
With the goofy 1040ST case you'd need a Bodega-Bay like contraption for
that backplane.
>I sure as hell won't buy a computer without a bus. I didn't like the
>fact that the 500 was pretty unexpandable. I wanted a general purpose
>bus with a coupl'a slots. That's why I picked up the 2000 instead,
>plunking down the extra dough.
>
>A lot of people feel the same way.
Let's hope that Commodore can convince lots more to feel that way.
>: Actually, the Falcon's 8-bit DMA stereo is just using the STe's sound chip.
>: Nothing new there.
>
>So they DO have the old sound chip and the DSP. Well, at least I know
>now.
The old voice chip appears to be in there also.
>: Well, truth maybe somewhere in between here. Given the choice between
>: spending $1300 on a hot new Yamaha DSP E-1000 dolby prologic processor with
>: 8 channel digital surround, and a $700 Falcon with DSP, I'll take the
>: Falcon and write my own dolby decoder (if it comes to that. I'm sure someone
>: else will beat me to it.) it doesn't take much DSP horsepower to handle
>: dolby surround processing, I'm sure folks will find plenty of other good
>: uses for the thing easily enough.
>
>I'm sure they will. Provided there's some standard way to access the
>DSP. Otherwise, every app will walk all over every other app. The OS
>won't be able to use audio outputs because an application is using the
>DSP, only the OS doesn't know it... Lots of things can go wrong. If
>it's not done "right".
I don't think that the NeXT allows more than one app to use the DSP at
the same time either. Of course, the Amiga is also guilty in this case.
Try running MED and another module player and see what happens.
>: Heh. Good ol' Apple, always giving ya half of what ya want. }-)
>: (Personally, I don't see why the IDE drive is there. It really makes no
>: sense at all to me, tho mebbe SCSI drives in that form factor and capacity
>: weren't available yet?) What else ya wanna use the DSP for - video? Floating
>: point number crunching? There's nothing *preventing* you from doing that in
>: the Falcon. I'm sure the sound capabilities are only being touted because
>
>For instance, let's say you have 8 samples you want to play through
>one channel. You can do it. You have the DSP sum all the samples in
>realtime and then have the OS play the summed data... Oops. That
>doesn't work, because to do that requires that the OS own the dsp. Or
>the OS tries and screws up your realtime-summing. So basically,
>you're forced to having to do the summing AND to play it. And if any
>other application, since this IS a pre-emptive multitasking system,
>wants to use the DSP, say, an Engineering program that wants to use
>the DSP for some FFT's, well, I don't know what happens.
Ah, but the Falcon has MultiTOS! As Jeff Young and others have told
us over and over again, MultiTOS and the Falcon will rule the world!
Surely a world leader can multitask a DSP!
>But it might not be pretty.
Nothing about the Falcon is, but then again consider its lineage.
>: those are what most people will most easily identify with. Many people know
>: that the NeXT used the same system for their audio. Most people are being
>: exposed to the term in context of home audio. I don't think there's anything
>: wrong with riding on that recognition...
>
>Again, it all depends on how they do it. And there's already some
>stiff limitations in it because it's being used for a main function of
>the system: all audio output (that isn't forcing its way into using
>ST-compatible sound chips).
>
>:Hm. I have always had a problem with what people have called "the Mac OS."
>:Or rather, bundling in features that are rightfully application-level into
>:the underlying operating system. I'm pretty certain that MultiTOS (Ok, MiNT,
>:whichI've actually worked on)provides more operating-system level
>:capabilities than System 7. Things like subscribe/post etc. can be
>:implemented on top of that easily enough, but don't properly belong in the
>:kernel, In My Opinion...
>
>No, but features like that DO belong in an operating system. For
>instance, HotLinks is similar. You publish, and your other apps
>subscribe, and they get updates. However, it's not a part of the OS.
>It should be. Just like clipboards should be. Just like
>interapplication communication should be. They're basic features that
>allow communication between application and application and between
>application and user. They belong in the OS.
Too bad the Falcon doesn't really have an OS. Hacks layered upon a stupid
program launcher hardly qualify as an OS, but it should be enough to fool
the suckers who already have STs and don't know any better.
>The kernel is another story. ;)
>
>:Multiscan,VGA, composite, and even RF are all supported. Even on my circa-
>:1987 Mega ST I get 832 horizontal resolution using overscan, even on my
>:Sony TV. (Granted, XBR TV, composite input. Not really feasible for RF...)
>
>So it handles at least 15.75-31.5. At least interesting. Are all
>resolutions available in 15.75 and 31.5? Or just the old,
>compatibility modes.
I'd just like to see an Atari change video modes without rebooting. :-)
>: I'm undecided on this one. The STe has RCA audio jacks, but for all the
>: cables coming out of this box I think I'd prefer the single cable minijack.
>: I already have several mini-to-RCA adapters so it's not an issue to me.
I'm sure that Radio Shack will be happy to supply the adapters.
>: The digital ports are the old-style 9-pin ports. The analog ports are
>: 15-pin. There's really no practical way to provide both on one port and
>: remain compatible with all the literally millions of digital joysticks
>: out there.
>
>It uses 15-pin analog? Well, that explains the extra two ports,
>thanks. No more arguments from me except to say that it's pretty
>brain damaged, you can get 9-pin analog. For instance, the Amiga's
>9-pin offers analog/digital/light-pen input...
>
>: Every machine oughta have room to grow, eh? Not like the MacPlus or PS/1...
>
>Maybe: Nobody will deny the MacPlus had its place. However, if you
>want to give a system room to grow, keep the features to the lowest
>cost necessary ones, (IE probably throw out SCSI II and keep IDE) and
>add a real expansion bus. With several slots. That way, they can ADD
>whatever they want without having to use the One And Only Slot.
Hey, if they threw out SCSI, kept IDE, added an expansion bus, put the
CPU on a card, and put the whole thing into a baby-AT style case they'd
have an A3400 look-alike. :-)
>: Full resource tracking. I can't conceive of even trying to multitask
>
>I can. :)
>
>: without it. Geeze, what a nightmare.... Also, while message-passing can
>: be implemented simply enough, I think it's faster to go with shared
>: memory. (In MiNT, any process can mark a region of its memory as sharable,
>: or give it up outright to some other userID. I haven't quite figured out
>: when I would want to give some other process some of my memory and give
>: up my access rights to it, but the capability is there.)
>
>Oh, there's quite a few reasons... A certain Russell McOrmond found
>out lots of good reasons to pass memory around back and forth and back
>and forth... ;)
>
>: This sounds pretty much like the stock set of entries in a Control Panel
>: desk accessory, with the exception of MicroEMACS. I'm not sure if I'd
>: package MicroEMACS (or any version of EAMCS, for that matter) with a low
>:end system, but it's readily available, as you say. As is the full GNU version
>
>Of course.
I wonder if Atari's version is non-standard like the one that ships with
the Amiga.
>: This remains to be seen. My impression was that audio input was not
>: dependent on the DSP, which frees up one sticking point. The rest does
>: seem like a difficult problem. It would certainly be of little use to
>: be unable to support ISDN in concert with various other operations.
>
>Yes, I'd agree. Of course, the I'm Slow and Dumb network has problems
>of its own... ;) (it's a joke, you pro-lifers. ;)
>
>: Depends on what you mean by "teach them unix." If you mean, can I take
>: software off comp.sources.unix and compile and run it, the answer is "yes."
>
>It's "Most Likely". Because it's probably not 100% compatible with
>BSD's calls... 99.5 at best. After all, it's not BSD. :)
If you want to learn UNIX, get a Sun-3 for ~$1000. You get real machine
from a real company with a real keyboard and a real OS.
>Though it does sound rather interesting, I still refute that the
>Falcon has lost much of the glory it was first given...
Did anyone really expect anything else?
>Greg
>
>--
>(: (: (: (: Have you overdosed on smileys today? Why NOT!?! :) :) :) :) :)
>(: "Flesh-pressing: It's not just for politics anymore." :)
>(: gbl...@csd4.csd.uwm.edu Gregory R. Block :)
>(: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Skip Sauls
sk...@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu
BTW, if I sound harsh on the ST, Falcon, etc. good! As long as bozos keep
ranting about the Falcon I'll continue to flame them. It amazes me that
any Amiga owners would consider a machine from a company with a record that
makes Commodore look great.
Jeffrey Grimmett 9999
> I think its safe to say that alot of A600's are going to be bought for
> playing games, not running productivity software. So having a lot of
> games break on the A600 doesn't make much sense.
It appears that there is a slight conflict here. On the one hand are game
programmers that use ever nook and cranny of the hardware to do whatever
they want, damn the consequences, and thier programs fail upon the first
change to the hardware. On the other hand, in order to advance the machine
C= has to change the hardware, usually in areas where they've clearly put an
"off limits" warning, and which the game makers usually ignore the warnings.
I really hope the A600 stays in Europe and drive the point home to game
developers over there. Maybe the next wave of Euro software will actually
last past the next hardware upgrade... but I'm not holding my breath.
So... what do we want to see? Awesom game machines with '85 technology, or
just plain awesome machines? I really hope the game designers don't win this
vote...
--
*******************************************************************************
Jeff Grimmett [SuperBitMap BBS] | fido!1:202/1401.0 [619-460-7290]
NCR -- Torrey Pines Development Center | Jeffrey....@TorreyPinesCA.ncr.com
========== "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain." =============
*******************************************************************************
Kent Dalton
Glen> Nntp-Posting-Host: falcon.natinst.com
Glen> You are totally wrong on this one Greg. Video devices have VDI
Glen> drivers (I am making the assumption you know what a driver is) for GEM.
This is correct. Having a "Virtual Device Interface" in GEM is the one
(and only) thing that Atari got right in their OS that C= did not. The
Amiga could really benefit from such a software interface seeing as how
the number of gfx boards available for it is about 10x that for the
Atari (probably due to the base models' complete lack of expandability.)
--
/**************************************************************************/
/* Kent Dalton * EMail: Kent....@FtCollinsCO.NCR.COM */
/* NCR Microelectronics * Phone: (303) 223-5100 X-319 */
/* 2001 Danfield Ct. MS470A * FAX: (303) 226-9556 */
/* Fort Collins, Colorado 80525 * */
/**************************************************************************/
Why don't you ever enter and CONTESTS, Marvin??
Don't you know your own ZIPCODE?
Thomas Darling
> > : CPU: Motorola 68030 running at 16 Mhz
> > : 32-bit Bus
>
> I just find it a bit ironic, that while Atari is finally coming out with
> a 16 MHz 68030 machine, Commodore is already droping the 16 MHz product in
> favor of the 25 MHz machines.
Atari is not "finally coming out" with 16MHz 68030. The Atari TT, a 32MHz
68030, has been around for two years. This new machine is for a different
price range and user base.
> I must say that I concur with Gregory on his assesment of the Falcon. I
> don't think that the A4000 has anything to worry about.
Do you think the Falcon is supposed to compete with the A4000? Couldn't you
buy 2-3 Falcons for the price of a 4000?
> Also, how does a company expect to seriously compete in the PROFESSIONAL
> market when their top of the line computer has an OPTIONAL hard drive???
How many professional USERS do you think want to be stuck with a
pre-packaged hard drive? The Falcon is designed for (ex.) DTP and pro music
applications. If you're doing DTP on it, you might want an 80 Meg drive.
If you're doing digital audio recording/editing, you might want 660 Megs
and/or an external SCSI 88Meg removeable.
Are you actually criticizing Atari for not making the decision for you?
^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\\\^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
Thomas A. Darling \\\ Fact HQ Studio * record production * dance re-mixing
dar...@cellar.org \\\ music for film * The Cellar BBS:215/654-9184 * FACT
v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~\\\~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~
Gregory G Greene
>> don't think that the A4000 has anything to worry about.
>
>Do you think the Falcon is supposed to compete with the A4000? Couldn't you
>buy 2-3 Falcons for the price of a 4000?
You may be able to get 6 or more of them, if the 040 A3000T is any
indication of what Commodore is going to charge for the A4000.
G.Greene
James McCoull
>Too bad the Falcon doesn't really have an OS. Hacks layered upon a stupid
>program launcher hardly qualify as an OS, but it should be enough to fool
>the suckers who already have STs and don't know any better.
Please tell me when the Amiga gets an OS, i bought mine in 1986
and am still waiting for an OS.
Dariusz Bolski
>As for A3000s without hard-drives, probably not a great idea. But given
>the prices of large IDE drives, I'd like to be able to purchase an A3400
>(or whatever they call it) sans hard-drive. An A3400 without hard-drive
>and CPU card could be a cheap way for users to get an AA machine and would
>leave room for the third-party folks to supply CPU boards, hard-drives, etc.
Commodore should at least give the possibility to buy A3000 without HD.
When we were trying to buy A3000s for our new Amiga Lab we wanted A3000s with
Ethernet instead of HD. They wouldn't let us. Thus we had to reduce the
number of Amigas we could buy (fixed amount of money).
HDs will be mostly useless (we relied on a fileserver) but we will not be
able to educate as many new students on Amigas as we wanted.
All in all, fewer people will get to know Amiga :-(
> Skip Sauls
Dariusz Bolski
--
Dariusz Bolski Ohio Supercomputer Center, IBM POWER Visualization System
Systems Programmer Ohio State University , Columbus U.S.
The Advanced Computing Center For The Arts And Design
e-mail: de...@cgrg.ohio-state.edu de...@osc.edu
Skip Sauls
>sk...@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls) writes:
>: Then there's the A600 which has a bus from a PC. :-)
>
>At least it's a BUS. ;)
The funny thing is that C= has this bus in a real product now, but we'll
probably hear more about its use in the Apple Newton. :-)
>: Zorro III is nice, too bad it is not popular. Until there are enough
>: machines with the Zorro III bus we'll probably see more Zorro II cards
>: than anything else.
>
>It's popular to own, it just doesn't appear popular to develop for.
>:) Lots of people have 3000's with unrealized potential...
Like me. I've had the machine for over a year now and the only board that
I have is a Zorro II Ethernet board. It is a nice board, but it cannot
keep up with the 486-33 and 486-50 ISA machines I use at work. :-( I'd
love to buy a video board, especially a Zorro III board, but I can't see
spending more than I paid for the A3000 itself. Not to knock the A2000,
but I don't think it is helping any that C= continues to sell the thing.
If they would go to Zorro III and 020 or better in all machines except
for the A500/A600 class we'd probably begin to see more Zorro III boards.
Of course, this is assuming that C= pulls its head out of its rear-end
and can price the things right and do a little marketing.
>: Uh, I hope that I'm wrong but the A3400/A4000 or whatever may not
>: have an A3000/A3000T compatible CPU slot. It may have the same
>: number of pins, but the form factor has certainly changed.
>
>Undobtedly: The processor slots change from cpu to cpu, from system
>to system. Such is true of those slots both on Amigas AND Mac
>systems. Can't say anything about the IBM, I'm not sure, though I
>believe those changed too.
C='s track record with regard to the CPU slots is certainly better than
Apple's, but then again there have only been 5 different Amigas with a
CPU slot (A1000, A500, A2000, A3000, A600) while Apple often introduces
that many models in a single year. Whether or not this is a good thing
is certainly debatable, but it certainly gives the illusion that Apple
is actually developing new hardware.
There are several different clones with CPU slots now, many offering
low-end 386sx chips on up to the fastest 486 chips. The problem is that
each clone-builder has their own CPU slot and you're stuck with their
boards. It could be argued that the Amiga is in the same boat, but for
all their problems I'd bet C= will be around longer than most of the
clone makers.
>When motherboard signals change, so do the processor slots.
Hey, if the new CPU slot has been changed to make it work better with
the AA chipset, I'm all for it. I just hope that the 040 boards for
the new machines are cheaper to build than those for the A3000. I
just switched over to a 486-50DX (not the clock-doubler hack) and the
motherboard was less than $800. The thing has 16M RAM, Tseng SVGA,
2 235M IDE drives, Ethernet board, 1.44M and 1.2M floppies, SVGA monitor,
keyboard and mouse. All for $3500. It's not an Amiga, but it makes for
a really nice development platform and makes my poor A3000 feel like
my old A1000 did after I Powered Up. :-(
>: With the goofy 1040ST case you'd need a Bodega-Bay like contraption for
>: that backplane.
>
>IS THAT WHAT THEY'RE PUTTING IT IN?????? OHMYGOD. I owned one of
>those little buggers, thought it was the UGLIEST thing to ever grace
>(or grease) my desk.
Yep, and the joystick ports are still on the bottom of the thing. I think
that they are going to be the same dark gray as the ST Book and the old
STacy. Maybe they'll use stealth paint so no one will notice them and
start laughing. :-)
>: Let's hope that Commodore can convince lots more to feel that way.
>
>:)
>
>: The old voice chip appears to be in there also.
>
>Not much of a cost reduction, they're throwing everything from three
>computer systems into it... I guess that's one way to maintain
>compatibility.
Almost as if they are layering the hardware to make up for their mistakes
like they are for the software. :-)
>: I don't think that the NeXT allows more than one app to use the DSP at
>: the same time either. Of course, the Amiga is also guilty in this case.
>: Try running MED and another module player and see what happens.
>
>Those hack the hardware, specifically against OS rules. If they were
>to "obtain" those, like my Mod player does, you'd see there's no
>problems.
I didn't mean to imply that they crashed the machine or anything like that,
but only 4 voices are allowed at one time. I don't know how easy or how
hard it would be, but a system that allowed an infinite number of programs
to access the sound would be nice. I realize that there would be some
limitations, but a hardware or software "mixer" could allow several apps
to output sound without having to wait for free channels.
>I'm not sure how the NeXT does it: Does it require that you "obtain"
>the dsp before use?
I'm not really certain. I almost bought one and spent several hours at
the Stanford bookstore and computer center playing with them and recall
seeing requesters indicating that the DSP was busy, so I'd guess that
it does.
>: Ah, but the Falcon has MultiTOS! As Jeff Young and others have told
>: us over and over again, MultiTOS and the Falcon will rule the world!
>: Surely a world leader can multitask a DSP!
>
>Yeah, sure. :) Unless they developed an operating system to work
>within that itty-bitty amount of memory they're giving that DSP, I
>doubt it.
As they can't seem to develop an OS to work in the memory given to the
CPU, I don't think they'd have much luck developing one for the DSP. :-)
>: Nothing about the Falcon is, but then again consider its lineage.
>
>Boo, hiss, low blow. :) I'm trying to be factual and give a real
>critique of what I really think of the thing, and here you are
>spouting Real and Whole Truths of the Universe. :)
Sorry, but bashing the Atari is great therapy for my depression due to
the lack of visible progress at C=.
>: Too bad the Falcon doesn't really have an OS. Hacks layered upon a stupid
>: program launcher hardly qualify as an OS, but it should be enough to fool
>: the suckers who already have STs and don't know any better.
>
>Unless they rewrote, which I hope they did. If it is truly all
>"hacked on top, layer after layer", I'll be rather disappointed.
>Moreso than I already am.
My roommate worked on a few utilities for MiNT and knows something about
it. He is not planning to buy a Falcon depsite the hype although he has
been a die-hard ST fan for several years now. What does that tell you?
>: I'd just like to see an Atari change video modes without rebooting. :-)
>
>:D
>
>: I'm sure that Radio Shack will be happy to supply the adapters.
>
>If we're talking about professional image, what would YOU think about
>mini-headphone jacks being there? if they were real headphone jacks,
>the big ones, I'd think differently. At least SOMEWHAT differently.
>But it looks DAMNED unprofessional for something touted as having
>professional quality sound to have HEADPHONE jacks.
Agreed. I guess Atari is just copying the Mac. I believe that you
mentioned in an earlier article that RCA jacks don't take up that
much space, so why not use them? Of course, I wouln't mind at all if
the new Amigas had microphone jacks for sound input...
>: Hey, if they threw out SCSI, kept IDE, added an expansion bus, put the
>: CPU on a card, and put the whole thing into a baby-AT style case they'd
>: have an A3400 look-alike. :-)
>
>Boo. :) Actually, that would look pretty damned ugly. ;)
Maybe. As nice as the A3000's case is, it really is a pain in the butt
to upgrade the thing.
>: I wonder if Atari's version is non-standard like the one that ships with
>: the Amiga.
>
>(the one for the ST is. non-standard, I mean)
>
>: If you want to learn UNIX, get a Sun-3 for ~$1000. You get real machine
>: from a real company with a real keyboard and a real OS.
>
>A real buggy OS, that is. ;)
But think of all the great practice you'll get while re-writing all of
the buggy code. :-)
>: Did anyone really expect anything else?
>
>Honestly, yes.
A co-worker and fellow Amiga owner was telling me yesterday how he hopes
that Atari really gets on the ball and the Falcon takes off. I asked him
what he was smoking and he replied that it seems that the only thing that
can spur C= to release new Amigas is the release of new Ataris. While
this may not be true, it certainly seems like it when one considers the
release dates of the repsective machines. I just wish that C= would set
their sights on Apple and the clones instead of something like Atari.
>: BTW, if I sound harsh on the ST, Falcon, etc. good! As long as bozos keep
>: ranting about the Falcon I'll continue to flame them. It amazes me that
>: any Amiga owners would consider a machine from a company with a record that
>: makes Commodore look great.
>
>I'm not considering it. I haven't been. I was thinking that maybe
>Atari would be changing. That maybe this would be the computer system
>that changes Atari's reputation. Unfortunately, I seem to have been
>wrong.
C= may still have a chance to survive, but Atari is dead in the US. I
live in one of the poorest states in the country (only Clinton's Arkansas
can compete :-) with a population of ~2 million. There is only one
Amiga dealer left and they are now selling more clones than Amigas.
Despite this, there are quite a few Amigas in the state. The problem is
that most people own A500s and A2000s and many want to upgrade to keep
up with the competition, primarily clones. If C= does not do something
to satisfy these folks, these Amigas will end up in the closets along
with the Apple ][s, C64s, Atari 800s, etc. Given the total number of
Amigas sold worldwide, I don't think that C= can really afford to lose
even a few supporters.
>Greg
Skip Sauls
sk...@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu
Skip Sauls
>In article <1992Aug19.1...@ra.msstate.edu> sk...@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls) writes:
>>As for A3000s without hard-drives, probably not a great idea. But given
>>the prices of large IDE drives, I'd like to be able to purchase an A3400
>>(or whatever they call it) sans hard-drive. An A3400 without hard-drive
>>and CPU card could be a cheap way for users to get an AA machine and would
>>leave room for the third-party folks to supply CPU boards, hard-drives, etc.
>
>Commodore should at least give the possibility to buy A3000 without HD.
>When we were trying to buy A3000s for our new Amiga Lab we wanted A3000s with
>Ethernet instead of HD. They wouldn't let us. Thus we had to reduce the
>number of Amigas we could buy (fixed amount of money).
>HDs will be mostly useless (we relied on a fileserver) but we will not be
>able to educate as many new students on Amigas as we wanted.
>All in all, fewer people will get to know Amiga :-(
Agreed. The bundled systems are great for some folks, but C= should let
the dealer do the bundling to make the prices more competitive. I wish
that C= would offer an A3000 with no HD and a socketed EC030. Let the
dealer add the HD, 881/882, true 030, monitor, RAM, etc. C= could
simplify their production lines, the price for a bare system would be
lower, and the third-party companies could benefit by supplying the rest
of the components. Apple has taken this approach somewhat and seems to
be doing well with it.
>Dariusz Bolski
Skip Sauls
sk...@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu
Matthias Meixner
Try KS 2.0
-Matthias
Skip Sauls
>In article <1992Aug15.0...@uwm.edu> gbl...@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) writes:
>>
>> : Here's the specs on the Atari Falcon 030:
>> :
>> : CPU: Motorola 68030 running at 16 Mhz
>> : 32-bit Bus
>
>I just find it a bit ironic, that while Atari is finally coming out with
>a 16 MHz 68030 machine, Commodore is already droping the 16 MHz product in
>favor of the 25 MHz machines.
Commodore's new machines are dropping the CPU altogether. :-)
>I must say that I concur with Gregory on his assesment of the Falcon. I
>don't think that the A4000 has anything to worry about. It seems to me
>that Atari just rushed it to the market too fast (like the orig. ST) and
>the product shows it. Also, how does a company expect to seriously compete
>in the PROFESSIONAL market when their top of the line computer has
>an OPTIONAL hard drive??? I don't think that any office would want to
>run a computer off floppies these days. Imagine buying an A3000 without
>a hard disk. Sort of a damper on performance, don't you think?
Atari is really going to push the Falcon as the ultimate video game console,
so why bother with a hard drive? If they really intended to market it as
a professional machine they would have not only included a hard drive but
also put it into something other than a toy case.
As for A3000s without hard-drives, probably not a great idea. But given
the prices of large IDE drives, I'd like to be able to purchase an A3400
(or whatever they call it) sans hard-drive. An A3400 without hard-drive
and CPU card could be a cheap way for users to get an AA machine and would
leave room for the third-party folks to supply CPU boards, hard-drives, etc.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>| Bo Najdrovsky b...@mndcrme.uoknor.edu b...@okcforum.uoknor.edu| // |
>| | // |
>| "I remember now, I remember how it started..." | \X/ AMIGA |
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skip Sauls
sk...@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu
Kent Dalton
Thomas> b...@mndcrme.uoknor.edu (Bo Najdrovsky) writes:
> > : CPU: Motorola 68030 running at 16 Mhz
> > : 32-bit Bus
>
> I just find it a bit ironic, that while Atari is finally coming out with
> a 16 MHz 68030 machine, Commodore is already droping the 16 MHz product in
> favor of the 25 MHz machines.
Thomas> Atari is not "finally coming out" with 16MHz 68030. The Atari
Thomas> TT, a 32MHz 68030, has been around for two years. This new
Thomas> machine is for a different price range and user base.
Calling the TT a 32MHz machine is pretty inaccurate. It's a machine that
has a 32MHz CPU in a 16MHz system design. The decision to put a 32MHz
CPU was made after the machine had been designed as a 16MHz system.
But don't take my word for it, here's a snippet from an old post by our
very own Dave Haynie:
From da...@cbmvax.commodore.com Tue Apr 7 10:36:13 1992
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Atari Falcon (wasn't: Amiga Falcon)
<preceding claim about TT memory access deleted>
The TT (I dunno anything about any SST) ran a 32MHz processor connected
to a 16MHz memory design (in fact, the original TTs had this hacked in
as a tower, though eventually they put the circuitry on the
motherboard). Even if they had managed 4/1/1/1 at 16MHz, that would
translate to 8/2/2/2 at 32MHz. A 2-clock burst is about the best you
can do with a single bank of 80ns DRAM at 32MHz, unless you go to nybble
mode DRAM (most vendors don't, because you can then only upgrade in 4MB
chunks; some of the GVP boards used this, as did the NeXT '030 system).
However, 8 clocks is downright pitiful for a 32MHz system, which is why
the TT runs most benchmarks slower than the A3000, even though it has,
on paper, a faster clock.
<comments about other reasons why the TT is a poor system deleted...>
-- end of quote --
--
/**************************************************************************/
/* Kent Dalton * EMail: Kent....@FtCollinsCO.NCR.COM */
/* NCR Microelectronics * Phone: (303) 223-5100 X-319 */
/* 2001 Danfield Ct. MS470A * FAX: (303) 226-9556 */
/* Fort Collins, Colorado 80525 * */
/**************************************************************************/
My life is a patio of fun!
Howard Chu
>In article <1992Aug20.0...@uwm.edu> gbl...@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) writes:
>>sk...@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls) writes:
>>: With the goofy 1040ST case you'd need a Bodega-Bay like contraption for
>>: that backplane.
>>
>>IS THAT WHAT THEY'RE PUTTING IT IN?????? OHMYGOD. I owned one of
>>those little buggers, thought it was the UGLIEST thing to ever grace
>>(or grease) my desk.
>
>Yep, and the joystick ports are still on the bottom of the thing. I think
>that they are going to be the same dark gray as the ST Book and the old
>STacy. Maybe they'll use stealth paint so no one will notice them and
>start laughing. :-)
>
last I saw. Funny how folks arrive at the same ideas like that... (Anyone
remember Bell & Howell Apple ][ clones?)
>>: The old voice chip appears to be in there also.
>>
>>Not much of a cost reduction, they're throwing everything from three
>>computer systems into it... I guess that's one way to maintain
>>compatibility.
>
>Almost as if they are layering the hardware to make up for their mistakes
>like they are for the software. :-)
None of this multilayered vector stealing crap any more. That was one of the
first things changed for the better in MiNT. There's a real live jump table
for replacing individual functions, instead of the godawful trap-handler
juggling that TOS forced ya into.
>
>>: I don't think that the NeXT allows more than one app to use the DSP at
>>: the same time either. Of course, the Amiga is also guilty in this case.
>>: Try running MED and another module player and see what happens.
>>
>>Those hack the hardware, specifically against OS rules. If they were
>>to "obtain" those, like my Mod player does, you'd see there's no
>>problems.
>
>I didn't mean to imply that they crashed the machine or anything like that,
>but only 4 voices are allowed at one time. I don't know how easy or how
>hard it would be, but a system that allowed an infinite number of programs
>to access the sound would be nice. I realize that there would be some
>limitations, but a hardware or software "mixer" could allow several apps
>to output sound without having to wait for free channels.
>
>>I'm not sure how the NeXT does it: Does it require that you "obtain"
>>the dsp before use?
>
>I'm not really certain. I almost bought one and spent several hours at
>the Stanford bookstore and computer center playing with them and recall
>seeing requesters indicating that the DSP was busy, so I'd guess that
>it does.
In the OS releases up to 1.0, there were no interlocks in the OS. I haven't
played with the 2.0 or newer stuff, but I recall running their mandelbrot
demo and some music programs at the same time. It was pretty spectacular.
Likewise with trying to run two different music players, or playing music
and getting a printer alert. But with such a glaring problem, I'd expect that
it's done better in the current OS.
>
>>: Ah, but the Falcon has MultiTOS! As Jeff Young and others have told
>>: us over and over again, MultiTOS and the Falcon will rule the world!
>>: Surely a world leader can multitask a DSP!
>>
>>Yeah, sure. :) Unless they developed an operating system to work
>>within that itty-bitty amount of memory they're giving that DSP, I
>>doubt it.
>
>As they can't seem to develop an OS to work in the memory given to the
>CPU, I don't think they'd have much luck developing one for the DSP. :-)
Well, thankfully, MultiTOS is based on MiNT, which was written by a guy
outside of Atari who actually knows what he's doing...
>
>>: Too bad the Falcon doesn't really have an OS. Hacks layered upon a stupid
>>: program launcher hardly qualify as an OS, but it should be enough to fool
>>: the suckers who already have STs and don't know any better.
Or the suckers who own DOS machines...
>>
>>Unless they rewrote, which I hope they did. If it is truly all
>>"hacked on top, layer after layer", I'll be rather disappointed.
>>Moreso than I already am.
The goal of the MiNT project has always been to be a complete replacement
for TOS. I'd say it's been pretty largely successful, even though current
releases still rely on TOS in some areas.
>
>My roommate worked on a few utilities for MiNT and knows something about
>it. He is not planning to buy a Falcon depsite the hype although he has
>been a die-hard ST fan for several years now. What does that tell you?
Not very much. I'd really like to get something similar to the Falcon, but
I'd prefer to wait for one in an expandable case...
>>: Hey, if they threw out SCSI, kept IDE, added an expansion bus, put the
>>: CPU on a card, and put the whole thing into a baby-AT style case they'd
>>: have an A3400 look-alike. :-)
>>
>>Boo. :) Actually, that would look pretty damned ugly. ;)
>
>Maybe. As nice as the A3000's case is, it really is a pain in the butt
>to upgrade the thing.
I would throw out the IDE and keep the SCSI, much more useful overall.
Heck, they should have thrown out the floppy controller too; just go
for a SCSI floptical for floppy compatibility.
>>: If you want to learn UNIX, get a Sun-3 for ~$1000. You get real machine
>>: from a real company with a real keyboard and a real OS.
>>
>>A real buggy OS, that is. ;)
>
>But think of all the great practice you'll get while re-writing all of
>the buggy code. :-)
I wouldn't mind getting hold of a Sun 3-80, but they're not exactly cheap,
nor too terribly impressive as far as audio or video.
>
>A co-worker and fellow Amiga owner was telling me yesterday how he hopes
>that Atari really gets on the ball and the Falcon takes off. I asked him
>what he was smoking and he replied that it seems that the only thing that
>can spur C= to release new Amigas is the release of new Ataris. While
>this may not be true, it certainly seems like it when one considers the
>release dates of the repsective machines. I just wish that C= would set
>their sights on Apple and the clones instead of something like Atari.
Mebbe it's a self-confidence thing, the Commodore execs "know" they can
lick Atari, but don't really feel up to tackling Apple head-on? Silly
sounding notion, but ya never know...
>
>>: BTW, if I sound harsh on the ST, Falcon, etc. good! As long as bozos keep
>>: ranting about the Falcon I'll continue to flame them. It amazes me that
>>: any Amiga owners would consider a machine from a company with a record that
>>: makes Commodore look great.
>>
>>I'm not considering it. I haven't been. I was thinking that maybe
>>Atari would be changing. That maybe this would be the computer system
>>that changes Atari's reputation. Unfortunately, I seem to have been
>>wrong.
>
Ok, taking the "realistic" viewpoint - how can you expect a particular
computer system to be the key? When the ST was introduced in '85 it was
leaps and bounds ahead of the Mac, as a hardware system. Higher screen
rez, sharper video (higher refresh rate), DMA, more peripheral ports,
expandable to up to 4M of RAM compared to the wimpy 128K Mac, etc. etc.
It was at least 3 years before Apple had anything comparable, hardware-wise.
The low-end machines still don't have DMA, etc... Despite the whiz-bang
cool stuff in the ST, the machine has languished. Atari's problem isn't
with designing cool hardware, it's all in the follow-thru. Or lack thereof.
As if they expect to be able to say "here's this obviously superior piece
of hardware, everyone in the world will recognize its obvious superiority
and buy it solely on that consideration." (Of course, if they *had* been
right, they would still have lost when the Amiga came out shortly thereafter.
Isn't life interesting. Really makes ya wonder what the marketing guys on
top are thinking about...)
[It suddenly occurred to me that, hey, maybe they really *were* so deluded
into thinking that their stuff was so revolutionary that it would just
sweep up the developers and consumers alike. Frightening... Especially
since this new system is also being touted as a revolutionary new personal
multi-media machine...]
I'm certainly looking for a change for the better, but this simple
Falcon announcement doesn't imply that *anything* has changed yet. They
could very well just say "here it is" and walk away again, like they did
before. I recall all the rumors of all the software developers that were
drooling after the original ST, and here again we're being told about all
the new developers signing up to write for this Falcon. I think the
developer support has certainly been better in the past couple years than
it was before, just hope they keep it up and don't do anything silly to
alienate this new crop. (I myself let my developer status expire a year
or so ago, but that wasn't 'cause of them really, just that I needed to
refocus...)
Howard Chu
the advocacy and misc groups. There are a lot of people with short fuses who
don't appreciate the followups appearing in comp.sys.amiga.misc. (To say the
least...) For the sake of reduced blood pressures in various corners, I'd
advise anyone continuing this thread to edit their Newsgroups/Followup
headers accordingly.
To those of you reading the misc group, who have been offended by the
cross-traffic - any trespass you may have perceived was purely unintentional.
Those of you who feel it is your duty to attack after such an affront should
go back and ask your parents to give you a refresher on manners. Accusing
folks of slinging crap is neither a polite nor expedient way of effecting a
change, in any situation.
Gregory R Block
: Stealth paint, that's got a nice ring to it. }-) The Falcon case is black,
: last I saw. Funny how folks arrive at the same ideas like that... (Anyone
: remember Bell & Howell Apple ][ clones?)
Now I feel old. ;) Yeah, I remember. As a matter of fact, I had
one. I had my IIc with a full 256k extra ram (wow!) and clock, and my
Bell & Howell. I used my IIc mostly for terminal stuff & wp, and my
B&H was hooked up to a color monitor, and for a long time ran Bard's
Tale II and III night and day for hours on end. ;)
I miss those games, to be honest. ;)
: None of this multilayered vector stealing crap any more. That was one of the
: first things changed for the better in MiNT. There's a real live jump table
: for replacing individual functions, instead of the godawful trap-handler
: juggling that TOS forced ya into.
That's good. But hardware-wise it sounds pretty awful. They've got
the hardware of several different systems incorporated into one
redundant system.
: In the OS releases up to 1.0, there were no interlocks in the OS. I haven't
: played with the 2.0 or newer stuff, but I recall running their mandelbrot
: demo and some music programs at the same time. It was pretty spectacular.
: Likewise with trying to run two different music players, or playing music
: and getting a printer alert. But with such a glaring problem, I'd expect that
: it's done better in the current OS.
What would you consider "spectacular"? What happened? I'm curious.
Details, details! ;)
: Well, thankfully, MultiTOS is based on MiNT, which was written by a guy
: outside of Atari who actually knows what he's doing...
It would have to be from outside of Atari. Of course, the fact that
it's only based on MiNT might mean that they screwed it up. ;)
: The goal of the MiNT project has always been to be a complete replacement
: for TOS. I'd say it's been pretty largely successful, even though current
: releases still rely on TOS in some areas.
But this is only the OS. I'm more disappointed by the actual
hardware, which seems to be getting less and less spectacular as it
gets closer and closer to release (if it makes it that far).
: Not very much. I'd really like to get something similar to the Falcon, but
: I'd prefer to wait for one in an expandable case...
I seriously believe that they've shot themselves in the foot by not
giving the users a real bus from the start.
: I would throw out the IDE and keep the SCSI, much more useful overall.
: Heck, they should have thrown out the floppy controller too; just go
: for a SCSI floptical for floppy compatibility.
:) Talk about wishful thinking... No, I imagine the low-end model
will have IDE only, the high-end model... well, I don't know.
I don't think they can DO much.
: I wouldn't mind getting hold of a Sun 3-80, but they're not exactly cheap,
: nor too terribly impressive as far as audio or video.
Yeah, but it's a Sun. ;)
: Mebbe it's a self-confidence thing, the Commodore execs "know" they can
: lick Atari, but don't really feel up to tackling Apple head-on? Silly
: sounding notion, but ya never know...
I've given up on guessing what executives are going to do. It's like
playing a role-playing game and not knowing who your PC is. :)
: Ok, taking the "realistic" viewpoint - how can you expect a particular
: computer system to be the key? When the ST was introduced in '85 it was
: leaps and bounds ahead of the Mac, as a hardware system. Higher screen
: rez, sharper video (higher refresh rate), DMA, more peripheral ports,
: expandable to up to 4M of RAM compared to the wimpy 128K Mac, etc. etc.
The DMA was done poorly, in my opinion. The ST was obviously a
single-tasking system. That's why I see it lacking in so many places
today.
: It was at least 3 years before Apple had anything comparable, hardware-wise.
: The low-end machines still don't have DMA, etc... Despite the whiz-bang
: cool stuff in the ST, the machine has languished. Atari's problem isn't
: with designing cool hardware, it's all in the follow-thru. Or lack thereof.
I disagree. I think it exists in both. Their hardware, while not
blah like original Mac's, are not spectacular. There was nothing
architecturally nifty about it. Not that I remember, correct me if
I'm wrong.
: As if they expect to be able to say "here's this obviously superior piece
: of hardware, everyone in the world will recognize its obvious superiority
: and buy it solely on that consideration." (Of course, if they *had* been
: right, they would still have lost when the Amiga came out shortly thereafter.
: Isn't life interesting. Really makes ya wonder what the marketing guys on
: top are thinking about...)
Going home to their husbands/wives/lovers/hookers... ;) Pick one or
all of the above, eh?
Alan Braggins
> In article <bn....@mndcrme.uoknor.edu> b...@mndcrme.uoknor.edu (Bo Najdrovsky) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug15.0...@uwm.edu> gbl...@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) writes:
>>>
>>> : Here's the specs on the Atari Falcon 030:
>>I just find it a bit ironic, that while Atari is finally coming out with
>>a 16 MHz 68030 machine, Commodore is already droping the 16 MHz product in
>>favor of the 25 MHz machines.
>>I must say that I concur with Gregory on his assesment of the Falcon. I
>>don't think that the A4000 has anything to worry about.
[...]
> Atari is really going to push the Falcon as the ultimate video game console,
> so why bother with a hard drive?
Since (from the review in ST format I just glanced through) its a lot closer in
price to an A600 than an A3000, its competing against a 8MHz 68000 machine with
an optional hard drive, no CPU slot, no internal expansion bus (and limited
products available so far for the card slot).
It will need higher end models to be taken seriously for many purposes, but that
doesn't make it useless, any more than the A600 is.
--
Alan Braggins, Shape Data (A Division of EDS Ltd), Cambridge, UK +44-223-316673
"Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
"My employer does not necessarily share my views - but I'm working on it."
Dave Haynie
>sk...@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls) writes:
>>Too bad the Falcon doesn't really have an OS.
>Please tell me when the Amiga gets an OS, i bought mine in 1986
>and am still waiting for an OS.
You should have read the manuals. The OS is on those funny looking 3.5"
roughly squarish things that fit in the front slot of the A1000. But you
really don't want those, you want some updated ones. Or perhaps a couple
of CS courses so that you at least understand the basic concepts of "OS",
"kernel", "DOS", "program loader", and other such technoid banter.
--
Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests"
{uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh BIX: hazy
"Work like a horse, drink like a fish" - Psychefunkapus
James McCoull
>In article <u894776.714264773@bruny> u89...@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au (James McCoull) writes:
>>sk...@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls) writes:
>>>Too bad the Falcon doesn't really have an OS.
>>Please tell me when the Amiga gets an OS, i bought mine in 1986
>>and am still waiting for an OS.
Read my statement again Dave. In light of the line above it.
>You should have read the manuals. The OS is on those funny looking 3.5"
>roughly squarish things that fit in the front slot of the A1000.
Whoops! the cat ate one of them - and was sick on another. I managed
to find two of them: One is labelled "Kickstart v1.1 50Hz Pal" or so, the
other is labelled "Kaleidoscope: Free Software from Electronic Arts(tm)".
Managed to slip the second disk in the slot on my 8th attempt - having
exhausted all the possible configurations/rotations. Anyway nothing
changed... so I had a brain wave! Why not try the other disk... *whammo*
action. Then out with that and in with the KaleiDOScope (dos?) disk: cool
sure beats the 6+1/2 years I have spent looking at the "hand + disk" image.
> But you
>really don't want those, you want some updated ones.
Yeah I rushed straight into the bit town (all on my own), and
went to a local computer shop and asked the assistant for help.
I held out my disks at arms length - and asked "Update disks please".
She said "Sorry we don't support the Commodore-Amiga, we only support the
Apple Macintosh and IBM PC compatible range, we have a wide range of
upgrades available for these machines, including System 7.0, Windows 3.1,
and OS/2.". I then asked "How do these upgrade things work? Do I have to
open up a computer or anything?". She replied "Of course not! You
should only need to open the case of a computer when the hardware changes -
no company would put a complete OS on rom inside the machine - except
maybe in the case of machines which can almost be used without disks
[on power up] such as the Acorn Archimedes range. Any company that put
a complete OS on a rom would be foolish - especially if you still needed
much floppy disk access to get anywhere! Also it is not good for the company
when they release new machines - if OS development stumbles in certain areas
..." - at this stage she started babbling way out of my league! She was
talking about strange things like digging a hole, and paying memory protection
so the criminals don't get you or something; She said it would be possible
to ship machines without these features, and then add them later as totally
new OS upgrades - she explained how if the OS was on ROM, it would develop
at a much slower pace, and if all my programs broke on a new ROM there
is very little I could do about it!.
Anyway... I left the shop [after some parting shots from her,
suggesting that people like me really ought to think about the Macintosh line
of computers (whatever that meant!)], I was happy in spirit however because
I new my computer had come with `OS' on disk and not ROM!
Eventually I found my way to another computer store - I guessed
it was the right kind of shop (even thought the computers looked different
than mine!), because of the Commodore-Amiga sign in the window. I repeated
the actions of requesting an OS upgrade from the salesman.
...To cut a long story short...
To my horror I found that the OS was now on ROM, and furthermore I would
have to pay a lot of money to add new ROMS to my machine, because it did
not have the right "connectors" on the mother/daugherboard. Also it
was possible to load the OS from disk, but I would have to break the law
to do it!!!?!
> Or perhaps a couple
>of CS courses so that you at least understand the basic concepts of "OS",
>"kernel", "DOS", "program loader", and other such technoid banter.
I did one of these once! The lecturer wrote the letters
RTG DIG MP VM, on the board.
and the whole class had fun spelling the letters out loud!
We even covered things like: BSD4.3 and Mach. Of course I didnt understand
what monolithic kernel of BSD, versus multiple processes with message passing
of Mach - meant. Nor did I reackonize the monotonic-(structure) inheritance
of exec.library (with respect to lists etc...) when I dissasembled it in
1987-88. Nor did I notice that before KS1.3 there wasnt a circle drawing
primitive, because there was no blitter BLT_STRT_DRAW_ELLIPSE register (if
you get my drift). I didnt even notice that the trackdisk.device wont
work without the graphics.library present...
+++
NO CARRIER
moci.uucp
: : I understand that one doesn't do this before the whole world. I believe it's
: : called being polite, sensitive, etc...
I think he wants you to become a GIRLY-MAN! :')
:
: Polite, fine. But sensitive? Me? Next you'll be telling me to use
: hand lotion and to keep myself prim and proper. Then you'll be
: telling me that I should be married, I suppose...
:
: Sensitive? NEVER!!!!! Men of the world, UNITE!!!!
:
: (big grin)
:
: --
: (: (: (: (: Have you overdosed on smileys today? Why NOT!?! :) :) :) :) :)
: (: "Flesh-pressing: It's not just for politics anymore." :)
: (: gbl...@csd4.csd.uwm.edu Gregory R. Block :)
: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
--
| // | |
| // Jerry Ponko | ICOM, Inc. (414) 321-8000 |
| \\ // (jerry, root, postmaster) | 2424 S. 102nd St. |
| \X/ UUCP: ...uwm!moci!root | West Allis, WI 53227 |
Mike Uhing
>
> Yes, it's kind of embarassing. I often see poor English on Usenet, but it
>is usually from international readers who do not know English very well, but
>this does not really mean that they are in any way lacking in intelligence
>because I am positive that I would sound a million times worse if I were
>forced to get around in a language that was not my native tongue! :-) However,
>this Jeff Young guy is most likely an American, probably born and raised here,
>which makes me embarassed to think of what the international readers must be
>thinking about an American who cannot even speak his own language.
>
No, actually, Mr. Young does not have the writing style of a poorly skilled
American. The mistakes are not typical of what I have seen, at least.
His style is more in the vein of a caricaturized foreigner. It also seems
somewhat deliberate. I would guess that Mr. Young is actually an assumed
identity, probably of an otherwise respectable (if only tenuously so)
regular amiga.advocacy contributor.
Given the guys specmania, constant magazine referals, edge-of-stridency
attitude, the subtle ambiguity in regards to which system he actually
supports (he seems interested in whether commodore will have something to
challenge atari with), as well as his knowledge of CBM/Atari stuff and
history, and etc... I have formed my own opinion of who Mr. Young actually
is. In any case, he is providing needed comic relief to this newsgroup...
Mike
>
>---
>| Marc Barrett -MB- | email: bar...@iastate.edu
>--------------------------------------------------
> "Beware the ides of September..."
--
The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
internet: bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
George Francis McBay
>An A3000 without HD, '030 and 881/882 (and no (much) RAM) ?
>--> Buy an A2000 !
It isn't the same. The 2000 has no SCSI built in (So if you have a
SCSI drive already you don't need to pay for the Quantum that Commodore
supplies by default), The 2000 has a 68000, the original poster suggested
an EC030 as the CPU...The 2000 has no flicker fixer built in, the 2000 has
a 16 bit bus, the 2000 has no room for memory expansion on the motherboard
, etc, etc...I agree with the original poster, I have lots of addons to my
dinky little A500 that I could use in a stripped down lower cost A3000
if Commodore offered such a thing.
Alan Braggins
> sk...@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu writes:
>>the dealer do the bundling to make the prices more competitive. I wish
>>that C= would offer an A3000 with no HD and a socketed EC030. Let the
>>dealer add the HD, 881/882, true 030, monitor, RAM, etc. C= could
>>simplify their production lines, the price for a bare system would be
>>lower, and the third-party companies could benefit by supplying the rest
>>of the components. Apple has taken this approach somewhat and seems to
>>be doing well with it.
> An A3000 without HD, '030 and 881/882 (and no (much) RAM) ?
> --> Buy an A2000 !
And if you wanted the ZorroIII bus??
Skip Sauls
>>>>>> On 24 Aug 92 11:41:30 GMT, stoc...@ztivax.UUCP (Klaus Stockamp) said:
>
>> sk...@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu writes:
>>>the dealer do the bundling to make the prices more competitive. I wish
>>>that C= would offer an A3000 with no HD and a socketed EC030. Let the
>>>dealer add the HD, 881/882, true 030, monitor, RAM, etc. C= could
>>>simplify their production lines, the price for a bare system would be
>>>lower, and the third-party companies could benefit by supplying the rest
>>>of the components. Apple has taken this approach somewhat and seems to
>>>be doing well with it.
>
>> An A3000 without HD, '030 and 881/882 (and no (much) RAM) ?
>
>> --> Buy an A2000 !
>
>And if you wanted the ZorroIII bus??
The original suggestion goes back to discussions both here and in other groups
a few months ago. The idea was for C= to offer a machine which had the potential
of being expanded into a full A3000, but which started off "bare". It would allow
C= to advertise a stripped machine at low price, say around $1000 for the EC030
motherboard with 1M chip, 1M fast, and a floppy. By adding a true 030, an 882,
and a hard drive they would then have an A3000 equivalent. Some also suggested
that the PC-AT slots be left off and using only 2 Zorro III slots with the video
slot inline.
Would a machine like this sell? I don't know, but there is a huge gap in the
product line in the $1000-$2000 range that the A2000 just doesn't fill. If
the rumors of the A3400/A4000 are close to the truth, C= may just be trying
this sort of thing.
Skip Sauls
sk...@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu
Don Robert DeCosta
>one. I had my IIc with a full 256k extra ram (wow!) and clock, and my
>Bell & Howell. I used my IIc mostly for terminal stuff & wp, and my
>B&H was hooked up to a color monitor, and for a long time ran Bard's
>Tale II and III night and day for hours on end. ;)
You feel old!!! I'm (ahem) "Upgrading my skills" by taking a Networking/
Data Comm course and my instructor thinks he's been in computers a long time
because he used to play with a VIC-20!!! I was on my 3rd computer related
job by the time I came across a VIC-20!!! Even funnier, somebody has set up
a sort of "relic" display in the computer center (nice glass case with brass
plaques) the oldest "relic" in the case is an Apple ][e!!! My god I have an
Apple ][ (not even plus) around here somewhere... And people complain because
they feel their A1000 is unsupported! The Apple ][e is only 3 years older than
an A1000 and it's a museum piece!
Don DeCosta |The nice thing about sanity is| VM/Nomad2
Do...@cup.portal.com |you can lose it more than once| Amiga/Imagine
Don Robert DeCosta
>>>and am still waiting for an OS.
>
[Ton's of drivel deleted]
You know, if you had spent money on an IBM or Mac in 1986 instead of an Amiga
you couldn't even buy a stupid shoot em up game for your computer.
Latest game offerings:
"12mhz 286 or better recommended" (couldn't buy one of these in 1986)
"1 meg Required" (Can't cram a Meg into that 1986
Fat Mac)
"Apple ][gs required" (Couldn't buy one yet in 1986 and
can't buy one anymore today!)
Come on!! The Amiga 1000 is the best supported 6 year old computer in existence
Evan Torrie
>You know, if you had spent money on an IBM or Mac in 1986 instead of an Amiga
>you couldn't even buy a stupid shoot em up game for your computer.
> "1 meg Required" (Can't cram a Meg into that 1986
> Fat Mac)
The Mac Plus was released in January 1986, and has no problems holding
4MB of memory.
Evan. (who now has to bow down to Redmond's direction every morning
because Bill is paying for my office).
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? tor...@cs.stanford.edu
Embrace rationalism, reject superstition. Break away from the past.
Crystal
>Do...@cup.portal.com (Don Robert DeCosta) writes:
>: You feel old!!! I'm (ahem) "Upgrading my skills" by taking a Networking/
>: Data Comm course and my instructor thinks he's been in computers a long time
>: because he used to play with a VIC-20!!! I was on my 3rd computer related
>: job by the time I came across a VIC-20!!! Even funnier, somebody has set up
>: a sort of "relic" display in the computer center (nice glass case with brass
>: plaques) the oldest "relic" in the case is an Apple ][e!!! My god I have an
>: Apple ][ (not even plus) around here somewhere... And people complain because
>:they feel their A1000 is unsupported! The Apple ][e is only 3 years older than
>: an A1000 and it's a museum piece!
>Oh my god. :) Even I remember the Apple II. Hell, I remember the
>Apple I. Of course, I was really young, then. ;)
>Greg
>--
>(: (: (: (: Have you overdosed on smileys today? Why NOT!?! :) :) :) :) :)
>(: "...and here's Clinton giving the correct spelling of bong-resin..." :)
>(: gbl...@csd4.csd.uwm.edu Gregory R. Block :)
>(: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
I have very low serial number on my Apple ][ (it's *sort of* a plus, but
I'm not really sure. It wasn't a Plus when we got it in 1979....
(yeah, I'm old, too... :<)
Crystal
;>
(I even played on a black Apple at the local Community college as late as
1986! It was an ordinary Apple...just the case was black....)
Spumoni the Fat Wok
>
>I have very low serial number on my Apple ][ (it's *sort of* a plus, but
>I'm not really sure. It wasn't a Plus when we got it in 1979....
>(yeah, I'm old, too... :<)
>
>Crystal
> ;>
>
>(I even played on a black Apple at the local Community college as late as
>1986! It was an ordinary Apple...just the case was black....)
I've got an *OLD* Apple II+--it was purchased in early 78,
I think. They made games for the Apple computers until '88, I
believe. Ten years is not too bad...which means that the Amiga 1000
still has until 1995!!
I think.
Crystal
>In article <crystal.714977696@glia> cry...@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Crystal) writes:
>I believe the black apples a Bell and Howell badged version made by Apple
>in an effort to sell computers through camera stores.
> andy
>--
>andy finkel {uunet|rutgers|amiga}!cbmvax!andy
>"Some people think MS-DOS is a necessary evil. They are wrong. MS-DOS
> is _not_ necessary."
>Any expressed opinions are mine; but feel free to share.
>I disclaim all responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors.
Yes, that's correct. The Bell and Howell name was on them, and they were
pure apples, and pure black. (Thanks for the correct company name - Honeywell
was dashing through my mind, and I *KNEW* that wasn't correct!)
Crystal
;>
__
///
__ ///=====================================================================
\\\/// Amiga | Great spirits have always encountered violent | To *KNOW* it
\XX/ 2000 | opposition from mediocre minds. -- A. Einstein | Is to LOVE it!
============================================================================
BTW, I got chastized for this being cross-posted to another newsgroup. I
can't tell when that happens, so could someone please change whatever it is
that needs changing and keep this thread in the ADVOCACY group?
Thanks...
And please stop cross-posting out of Advocacy???
(I hate being a victim of another's incompetence - I'm incompetent enough
WITHOUT their help!)
Crystal
;>
Jim Pritchett
> (I even played on a black Apple at the local Community college as late as
> 1986! It was an ordinary Apple...just the case was black....)
Weren't the Bell & Howell Apples black? I don't remember for sure...
Jim Pritchett
UUCP: rwsys.lonestar.org!caleb!jdp
or utacfd.uta.edu!rwsys!caleb!jdp
Bob Proffitt
>
>I believe the black apples a Bell and Howell badged version made by Apple
>in an effort to sell computers through camera stores.
>
> andy
>--
>andy finkel {uunet|rutgers|amiga}!cbmvax!andy
>
>"Some people think MS-DOS is a necessary evil. They are wrong. MS-DOS
> is _not_ necessary."
>
>
>Any expressed opinions are mine; but feel free to share.
>I disclaim all responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors.
I always thought the "Bell and Howell" Apple ][ was produced so that
educators could buy it through their audio-visual distributor.
--
Bob Proffitt, KH6C uunet.uu.net!pegasus!bpamiga!bob
Pearl City, Hawaii Voice (808) 456 2777
Mike Meyer
> In article <crystal.714977696@glia>, Crystal writes:
>
> > (I even played on a black Apple at the local Community college as late as
> > 1986! It was an ordinary Apple...just the case was black....)
>
> Weren't the Bell & Howell Apples black? I don't remember for sure...
Yes, they were. I was part owner of an outlet that sold them in the
early '70s.
Of course, I also worked with a MITS Altair 8800. Friend I went to
school with bought one. 256 _bytes_ of RAM, and a front panel for IO.
Not a very useful machine, but a great teaching device.
For those feeling old, I'm just barely entering my late youth.
<mike
linda ream fox
where he can get/go for information on using it?
LRFox
GEORGE PHILIP BLUHM
>m...@contessa.palo-alto.ca.us (Mike Meyer) writes:
>
>>> Weren't the Bell & Howell Apples black? I don't remember for sure...
>
>>Yes, they were. I was part owner of an outlet that sold them in the
>>early '70s.
>
>1977... ;-)
>
> -jack-
>
The mind is the second thing to go!!!!!!!!!
Phyl Thee McNasty