kickstart eprom?
warezandstuff
selfmade Eproms? and how to burn them?
I want to upgrade my A2000 from kick2.0 to kick31, but with eproms.
TIA
Angelo Vigliotti
"warezandstuff" <WAS...@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:acosvp$1o0$02$1...@news.t-online.com...
Well since you need the 3.1 rom data to begin with to even make a 3.1
eprom. Your plans are moot and obvious.
Also the Amiga Forever 3.1 image cannot be burned into a rom if that's
your source.
Note: Try changing your tagname to something less obvious. ;-)
Jim
Burt
> selfmade Eproms? and how to burn them?
> I want to upgrade my A2000 from kick2.0 to kick31, but with eproms.
What you are asking for is illegal. This product is still commercially
available from softhut, eyetech and other amiga dealers. More importantly
it's copyrighted by Amiga Inc. So don't expect a reply to this... Sorry.
--
___
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warezandstuff
"Burt" <c64du...@nospamyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3CF030AD...@nospamyahoo.com...
Oh, that makes it a lot easier to me! I just did'nt thought that there's
still the possibility to buy ROMs for an 'ancient' A2000... maybe I was
influenced by my IBM PC surroundings... can anybody tell me where I can get
3.1 ROMs in Germany?
amiganewbie
"Burt" <c64du...@nospamyahoo.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3CF030AD...@nospamyahoo.com...
Hi! I just read this and the thread about 'softkicking'. Is that illegal,
too, then?
Angelo Vigliotti
"amiganewbie" <m...@home.com> wrote in message
news:acpc6j$eh9$01$1...@news.t-online.com...
If you own a license to the image and ONLY use it on one computer running,
then
no it is not illegal. This is how the Amiga forever package works.
Essentially a "softkicked" clone machine. ;-)
Jim
Mark
illegal,
> > too, then?
> >
> >
> >
>
> If you own a license to the image and ONLY use it on one computer running,
> then
> no it is not illegal. This is how the Amiga forever package works.
> Essentially a "softkicked" clone machine. ;-)
Well, then what's the difference if he burns the rom to an eprom and only
uses his 2000 when he's not using the machine it came from?
Ross Vumbaca
Mark wrote:
> > If you own a license to the image and ONLY use it on one computer running,
> > then
> > no it is not illegal. This is how the Amiga forever package works.
> > Essentially a "softkicked" clone machine. ;-)
> Well, then what's the difference if he burns the rom to an eprom and only
> uses his 2000 when he's not using the machine it came from?
The AmigaForever image is encrypted.
Regards,
Ross..
--
*TO E-MAIL ME: Reverse the order of the domain name in my e-mail
address.*
Ross Vumbaca, a 'poor' Uni student at USyd.edu.au
http://members.optushome.com.au/rossv1
Flagship: Amiga 3000 (030/25), GVP Spectrum, C= A2065,
12Mb Fast/2Mb Chip, HD FDD, 9.1G-UW-SCSI (connected to A3000 SCSI),
Kickstart 3.1 (40.68), OS 3.9, Linux m68k 2.2 (Debian 2.2r0).
A pc.
--
PaSha
> Oh, that makes it a lot easier to me! I just did'nt thought that there's
> still the possibility to buy ROMs for an 'ancient' A2000... maybe I was
> influenced by my IBM PC surroundings... can anybody tell me where I can
get
> 3.1 ROMs in Germany?
>
>
They should have these chips, as well as loads of other amiga hardware.
PaSha
only
> > uses his 2000 when he's not using the machine it came from?
>
> The AmigaForever image is encrypted.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ross..
>
But if he rips the kick 40.63 from an A500/A600/other A2000 that he owns,
burns this to a eprom and only uses one machine at the time, would this be
legal? Just wondering... software-laws are rather confusing sometimes :)
-Paul
Ross Vumbaca
PaSha wrote:
> But if he rips the kick 40.63 from an A500/A600/other A2000 that he owns,
> burns this to a eprom and only uses one machine at the time, would this be
> legal? Just wondering... software-laws are rather confusing sometimes :)
People would say that it is, if one at a time is used.
But who knows for sure? *shrug*
Richard R. Johnson
Ross Vumbaca wrote:
> Hi,
>
> PaSha wrote:
>
> > But if he rips the kick 40.63 from an A500/A600/other A2000 that he owns,
> > burns this to a eprom and only uses one machine at the time, would this be
> > legal? Just wondering... software-laws are rather confusing sometimes :)
>
> People would say that it is, if one at a time is used.
>
> But who knows for sure? *shrug*
No it is not legal. It is only legal to have the Kickstart or the OS installed
on one machine at a time. It makes no difference if the machines are on or off.
Please go buy the rom and the OS disks.
Thanks, rich
Team *AMIGA*
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Angelo Vigliotti
"Ross Vumbaca" <ros...@au.com.optushome> wrote in message
news:3CF0648A...@au.com.optushome...
> Hi,
>
> Mark wrote:
>
> > > If you own a license to the image and ONLY use it on one computer
running,
> > > then
> > > no it is not illegal. This is how the Amiga forever package works.
> > > Essentially a "softkicked" clone machine. ;-)
>
> > Well, then what's the difference if he burns the rom to an eprom and
only
> > uses his 2000 when he's not using the machine it came from?
>
> The AmigaForever image is encrypted.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ross..
The ROM's are also machine specific. Certain functions are not present
on some roms, also the Amiga Forever image is not just encrypted but
machine specific items are stripped since the emulation replaces
them. You could always "try" but that's an expensive try to burn when
you could just buy the 3.1 roms for $39.00
Jim
Mark
"Richard R. Johnson" <mech...@mwt.net> wrote in message
news:3CF0D687...@mwt.net...
>
>
> Ross Vumbaca wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > PaSha wrote:
> >
> > > But if he rips the kick 40.63 from an A500/A600/other A2000 that he
owns,
> > > burns this to a eprom and only uses one machine at the time, would
this be
> > > legal? Just wondering... software-laws are rather confusing sometimes
:)
> >
> > People would say that it is, if one at a time is used.
> >
> > But who knows for sure? *shrug*
>
> No it is not legal. It is only legal to have the Kickstart or the OS
installed
> on one machine at a time. It makes no difference if the machines are on or
off.
> Please go buy the rom and the OS disks.
> Thanks, rich
> Team *AMIGA*
Copyright laws dictate that you are allowed to make a backup of *any*
software, in any way you see fit, be it dumping the rom to disk or burning
it to an eprom. The stipulation is that both copies of said software can not
be used at the same time. In fact, the biggest software ogres out there,
(Microsoft, of course) also have provisions for MOST of their software
products that you are allowed to install and use one extra copy on a laptop,
whether both are running at once or not. Sorry, but your argument doesn't
pan out, it just sounds like propaganda designed to sell 512K of 9 year old
code on a $2 rom chip for $39
Thanks, Mark
Team *STOP THE BS*
Burt
> too, then?
Yeah I suppose so... Either way I can't get this going anyway and don't have
the time to figure it out... BTW, I own the kickstart 1.3 and 2.04 so it makes
it less illegal. :-)
Burt
If you buy OS 3.9 (then resell it) you get the ROMs for $25 :-)
Paul Gable
Paul
Richard R. Johnson
Mark wrote:
You are welcome to leave anytime. I will not debate this. You are allowed to
make a backup copy for archival purposes only. You are not allowed to install
the software on more than one machine. Anyone doing otherwise will be reported
to the proper authorities. And don't give me this garbage that piracy doesn't
hurt anyone. It hurts all of us in a big way.
Richard R. Johnson
Burt wrote:
> > Hi! I just read this and the thread about 'softkicking'. Is that illegal,
> > too, then?
>
> Yeah I suppose so... Either way I can't get this going anyway and don't have
> the time to figure it out... BTW, I own the kickstart 1.3 and 2.04 so it makes
> it less illegal. :-)
No such thing as less or more illegal. If is illegal it is illegal. Period.
PaSha
> > Yeah I suppose so... Either way I can't get this going anyway and don't
have
> > the time to figure it out... BTW, I own the kickstart 1.3 and 2.04 so
it makes
> > it less illegal. :-)
>
> No such thing as less or more illegal. If is illegal it is illegal.
Period.
> rich
> Team *AMIGA*
>
in not installed in any amiga, would it then be legal to softkick that
particular version of kickstart?
-Paul
Gl...@canit.se
+warezandstuff <WAS...@gmx.net> wrote
>> What you are asking for is illegal. This product is still commercially
>> available from softhut, eyetech and other amiga dealers. More importantly
>> it's copyrighted by Amiga Inc. So don't expect a reply to this... Sorry.
>Oh, that makes it a lot easier to me! I just did'nt thought that there's
>still the possibility to buy ROMs for an 'ancient' A2000... maybe I was
>influenced by my IBM PC surroundings... can anybody tell me where I can get
>3.1 ROMs in Germany?
The A2000 share ROM with A500 and A600, so it's a huge market :)
Unfortunatly i don't know any german dealers.
--
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| \___//_/\__/_//_/_//_/ | T h e K i n g d o m o f S w e d e n |
Gl...@canit.se
+Richard R. Johnson <mech...@mwt.net> wrote
>> > But if he rips the kick 40.63 from an A500/A600/other A2000 that he owns,
>> > burns this to a eprom and only uses one machine at the time, would this
>> > be legal? Just wondering... software-laws are rather confusing sometimes
>> > :)
>>
>> People would say that it is, if one at a time is used.
>>
>> But who knows for sure? *shrug*
>No it is not legal. It is only legal to have the Kickstart or the OS
>installed on one machine at a time. It makes no difference if the machines
>are on or off.
Depends on your local laws.. in Sweden for example you are allowed to make
as many copies of your software (and CD's and DVD's and..) as you want,
as long as you don't spread it.. the "using the same licence on several
computers at the same time" is a greyzone.. but if you only use one
at a time it should be fine. (here at least)
>Please go buy the rom and the OS disks.
I agree on that one.
Gl...@canit.se
+Ross Vumbaca <ros...@au.com.optushome> wrote
>> > If you own a license to the image and ONLY use it on one computer
>> > running, then no it is not illegal. This is how the Amiga forever
>> > package works. Essentially a "softkicked" clone machine. ;-)
>
>> Well, then what's the difference if he burns the rom to an eprom and only
>> uses his 2000 when he's not using the machine it came from?
>The AmigaForever image is encrypted.
..Wich is extremly easy to get around if you want to.
Mark Stewart
"PaSha" <pma...@nospam.online.no> wrote in message
news:lSvI8.6144$fG3.2...@news2.ulv.nextra.no...
How about if it is a bad rom that is useless. It was paid for and now
doesn't
function. Shouldn't he be able to use a burned image of a good rom to
replace
his defective one? Provided of course they are the same versions
Mark
Mark
to
> make a backup copy for archival purposes only. You are not allowed to
install
> the software on more than one machine. Anyone doing otherwise will be
reported
> to the proper authorities. And don't give me this garbage that piracy
doesn't
> hurt anyone. It hurts all of us in a big way.
> rich
> Team *AMIGA*
Well, if you don't want to debate it, then ignore this post. If you want to
hear an opinion of a long-time Amiga user, then read on. I believe in open
and honest (and polite) debates, myself.
I have to ask- *why* does the rom cost $39? After all, it's only a little
black chip (or two) with 9 year old code on it. Not really cutting edge or
modern, in fact if one want's to bring up SETPATCH, one could argue that
it's also buggy as hell. Don't get me wrong- I don't advocate software
piracy. But when I see modern, cutting edge OS's such as Linux and BeOS, and
even QNX being offered up for download *completely free* for personal use,
it makes me wonder who exactly is getting "protected" here- Sure, Amiga Inc
owns the rights to the software. I think the thing that bothers me the most
is that Amiga Inc. has ZERO to do with the actual development of the rom
kernel. It's the same one that was around in 1993, and I highly doubt AI
could do a rom update, after all they had to license out development of
3.5/3.9.. and the rom update on that is a PATCH, let's be clear about it.
The original poster says he was not aware that the roms could still be
bought. Maybe that was a copout, maybe not. Regardless, I can find
unencrypted roms (all versions) in about 2 minutes of searching on the
internet. As I said before, I do not advocate software piracy, therefore
when someone naively asks where to get them, I don't say anything. On the
other hand, I do not think the 3.1 roms should be sold commercially, that's
just my opinion, but I think the Amiga community, who's suffered enough
already doesn't need to be ripped off yet again. Come on, what is the real
world value for 512Kb of (heavily padded, BTW), 9 years out of date code? We
already have to pay 100 or so dollars for an ethernet card which can be had
on the PC platform for 20 bucks. We already have to pay upwards of $800 for
an accelerator card which might have been modern and cutting edge on other
platforms 5 years ago.... people threw away PC video cards with chipsets
that drive $500 Amiga video cards. It's ridiculous. Amiga Inc. owns Amiga.
Maybe they should do something for *Amigans* for once.
Kickstart 3.1 should be free. If Amiga Inc. wants to do something for the
Amiga community, they should re-write the kernel from scratch, instead of
whining and cringing about people pirating a 9 year old kernel. If for
nothing else, to allow people to "try before they buy". Do you think
Microsoft worries about people "sharing" Windows 3.1?
-Mark
John Burns
Then return it for a good one if it came damaged. If you broke it yourself
then guess what, you have to pay for a new one. It ain't difficult ROMs are
like anything else you buy and subject to the same laws regarding being
suitable for use.
Ville Jouppi
>Oh, that makes it a lot easier to me! I just did'nt thought that there's
>still the possibility to buy ROMs for an 'ancient' A2000...
I just ordered a _new_ 060 turbo for one of my "ancient" A2000s.. :-)
--
CBM, Amiga and PEZ-nut, Scout, Glider pilot, Administrator
Email: vjo...@sci.fi, URL: http://www.sci.fi/~vjouppi/
GSM: +358-40-5679999, IRCNet: Jope
**** COMMODORE BASIC V2 ****
Angelo Vigliotti
"Mark" <mark...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:E3CI8.148734$GG6.12...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca...
<big snip to get to the meat>
> Maybe they should do something for *Amigans* for once.
> Kickstart 3.1 should be free. If Amiga Inc. wants to do something for the
> Amiga community, they should re-write the kernel from scratch, instead of
> whining and cringing about people pirating a 9 year old kernel. If for
> nothing else, to allow people to "try before they buy". Do you think
> Microsoft worries about people "sharing" Windows 3.1?
>
> -Mark
And isn't that exactly what they are doing with OS4? ;-)
Amiga legacy dependence is gone finally. All the 3.1
kickstart rom is good for is older legacy Amigas and
emulators.
Should it be free? The code maybe, but the chip?
You're talking physical hardware and time here.
All in all it really doesn't matter. Amiga Inc. owns
it and is in their rights to see how it is distributed.
Jim
Paul Gable
argue that the code should be free but really to compare AmigaOS to some
fo those free Linux systems is kind of silly. Amiga users do not use
Amigas because they are the best system out there. Please!!! Who are we
trying to kid? I can now
buy a PC with1 ghz, 20 gig HD and 128 meg of RAM for less than $300.
Surely, that PC is "better" than any Amiga no matter how much it is
accelerated. Right? We use Amigas because we want to
be different. We use Amigas because it is pretty amazing that hardware
that is this old can do what it does. I am listening to MP3s right now
on my Amiga with my web browser open and the newsreader and my financial
program and my Email program. I can switch between these programs and
you know what, the MP3 doesn't skip. My 250Mhz Mac G3 skips. Have a
friend with a Pentium 3, 1.2 Ghz. It can't run the MP3 player at the
same time as a little graphics display called "Whitecaps." It skips and
then crashes. Go figure.
Now which is the better hardware again? If you are worried about cost,
go buy a PC. Hmmm, Windows XP and OS X are free for those other
computers right? BTW, try running OS X on a 68K Mac. Try running XP on a
386. What? It doesn't work?
Paul
Mark
I thought they were making a slick-looking version of Linux for an Intel
based PC (oh, wait. It's a PPC now) and calling it "Amiga"? But I'm cynical
by nature, so take that for what it's worth :) I'm not really interested in
the "Next-Gen" Amiga. I have a PC already, and it does everything I want it
to. My "legacy" A4000 does some things that my PC can't do, and it's
interesting and intriguing. But it's just a hobby, and I have no plans of
switching back full time to Amiga. (in any form)
> Amiga legacy dependence is gone finally. All the 3.1
> kickstart rom is good for is older legacy Amigas and
> emulators.
And that's exactly why the code (not the chips themselves, of course) should
be free. Kickstart 3.1 has had it's day in the sun. It was (and still is, to
some extent) a great kernel, but it's past it's commercially viable
lifespan. Everyone knows it, and only the ridiculously honest emulator users
actually pay for it. And regarding UAE- There's detailed instructions on how
to transfer roms, systems disks, software, etc, from your Amiga to your PC
to use in UAE, so does anyone REALLY care about software laws where that's
concerned? "I think I'll just go out and buy an extra set of roms and
another copy of 3.9 because I feel SO GUILTY running the same copy on UAE
and my Amiga at the same time." Give me a break.
>
> Should it be free? The code maybe, but the chip?
> You're talking physical hardware and time here.
The crux of this conversation is about the actual code, not the medium it's
stored on. The original poster asked for advice on burning the rom to an
eprom himself, remember?
> All in all it really doesn't matter. Amiga Inc. owns
> it and is in their rights to see how it is distributed.
And helpful "suggestions" from the community may someday steer them in the
right direction. But as long as they're leeching money off diehard Amigans
for an outdated rom and screaming "PIRATE" at everyone who wants to run
3.5/9 and doesn't want to throw away that extra 40 bucks, I get the feeling
they're not listening to us. The rom should be included, in software form,
along with a softkicker and/or instructions on burning it yourself, with
every dist of 3.5/9
Just my opinion.
-Mark
Mark
"Paul Gable" <greml...@bbigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:891214...@ip68-7-2-213.sd.sd.cox.net...
<====SNIP==========>
> Now which is the better hardware again? If you are worried about cost,
> go buy a PC. Hmmm, Windows XP and OS X are free for those other
> computers right?
No, but I bet you can update your flash bios for free. You know, the "rom
kernel" on your motherboard?
>BTW, try running OS X on a 68K Mac. Try running XP on a
> 386. What? It doesn't work?
> Paul
>
Try running OS3.9 on an unexpanded A1000. What's your point?
-Mark
Richard R. Johnson
Mark wrote:
> > You are welcome to leave anytime. I will not debate this. You are allowed
> to
> > make a backup copy for archival purposes only. You are not allowed to
> install
> > the software on more than one machine. Anyone doing otherwise will be
> reported
> > to the proper authorities. And don't give me this garbage that piracy
> doesn't
> > hurt anyone. It hurts all of us in a big way.
> > rich
> > Team *AMIGA*
>
> Well, if you don't want to debate it, then ignore this post. If you want to
> hear an opinion of a long-time Amiga user, then read on. I believe in open
> and honest (and polite) debates, myself.
Ok, I wasn't going to this, but if I can help you to understand why, then it is
worth it.
>
>
> I have to ask- *why* does the rom cost $39? After all, it's only a little
> black chip (or two) with 9 year old code on it. Not really cutting edge or
> modern, in fact if one want's to bring up SETPATCH, one could argue that
> it's also buggy as hell. Don't get me wrong- I don't advocate software
> piracy.
Well Amiga Inc. paid a lot of money to Gateway to get the rights to the AmigaOS.
They have a right and a need to recoup that expense. If they were to do as you
suggest, they would have to close their doors and then there would be no Amiga
at all.
> But when I see modern, cutting edge OS's such as Linux and BeOS, and
> even QNX being offered up for download *completely free* for personal use,
> it makes me wonder who exactly is getting "protected" here- Sure, Amiga Inc
> owns the rights to the software.
Yep, and I praise the people who are donating their time and money to develop
these OSs. But Amiga Inc. is a commercial concern that is in the business of
making a profit. So they have to charge for the IP that they hold.
> I think the thing that bothers me the most
> is that Amiga Inc. has ZERO to do with the actual development of the rom
> kernel. It's the same one that was around in 1993, and I highly doubt AI
> could do a rom update, after all they had to license out development of
> 3.5/3.9.. and the rom update on that is a PATCH, let's be clear about it.
Well there are a lot of things that we all pay for that was developed by someone
else, but it is now marketed by someone who had nothing to do with its
development. Take an automobile. Most of the components on today's cars were not
developed by the manufacturer, but by someone else. I believe that with time and
as Amiga Inc. is able to improve their cash flow, we will see an R&D team come
on board. But it really doesn't matter, if the R&D is done in house or if it is
done by a sub-contractor. In fact most modern businesses done have their R&D
done out of house.
>
> The original poster says he was not aware that the roms could still be
> bought. Maybe that was a copout, maybe not. Regardless, I can find
> unencrypted roms (all versions) in about 2 minutes of searching on the
> internet. As I said before, I do not advocate software piracy, therefore
> when someone naively asks where to get them, I don't say anything.
I think it was a cop-out also. And those sites are being shut down and the ones
that are ignoring the cease and desist orders are finding the authorities on
there front porches.
> On the
> other hand, I do not think the 3.1 roms should be sold commercially, that's
> just my opinion, but I think the Amiga community, who's suffered enough
> already doesn't need to be ripped off yet again.
Well as I said above, Amiga Inc. needs to recover their investment. I don't feel
like I am being ripped off. The Amiga has always been a good price value
machine. The ones that ripped us off were those crooks that took over C= and
then raped the company. I truly believe that Amiga Inc. has our best interests
at heart, but it is going to take time for them to get going again after all the
things that have happened.
> Come on, what is the real
> world value for 512Kb of (heavily padded, BTW), 9 years out of date code? We
> already have to pay 100 or so dollars for an ethernet card which can be had
> on the PC platform for 20 bucks. We already have to pay upwards of $800 for
> an accelerator card which might have been modern and cutting edge on other
> platforms 5 years ago.... people threw away PC video cards with chipsets
> that drive $500 Amiga video cards.
The prices are because of the quantity that are being produced or not produced.
This is supply and demand at work. When you make a few thousand cards you are
going to have to charge a lot more per card than if you produced several million
cards.
> It's ridiculous. Amiga Inc. owns Amiga.
> Maybe they should do something for *Amigans* for once.
> Kickstart 3.1 should be free.
They are, be patient and hang in there.
> If Amiga Inc. wants to do something for the
> Amiga community, they should re-write the kernel from scratch, instead of
> whining and cringing about people pirating a 9 year old kernel.
They are, it is called OS4.0.
> If for
> nothing else, to allow people to "try before they buy". Do you think
> Microsoft worries about people "sharing" Windows 3.1?
Well if you were to start pirating Win3.1 or any of the others you would find
the federal authorities breaking down your front door. MS wouldn't even brother
to issue a cease and desist order.
Thanks, rich
Richard R. Johnson
Paul Gable wrote:
Well said Paul and thank-you.
Richard R. Johnson
Mark wrote:
> "Paul Gable" <greml...@bbigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:891214...@ip68-7-2-213.sd.sd.cox.net...
> <====SNIP==========>
>
> > Now which is the better hardware again? If you are worried about cost,
> > go buy a PC. Hmmm, Windows XP and OS X are free for those other
> > computers right?
>
> No, but I bet you can update your flash bios for free. You know, the "rom
> kernel" on your motherboard?
You can't compare the BIOS to the kickstart. The kickstart is lot more than
just a bios. It has a large portion of the OS on board.
>
>
> >BTW, try running OS X on a 68K Mac. Try running XP on a
> > 386. What? It doesn't work?
> > Paul
> >
>
> Try running OS3.9 on an unexpanded A1000. What's your point?
Not a fair comparison. But OS 3.9 will run on an A2000 or A500.
Mark I'm sorry that you feel so jilted and there are a few others like
yourself, but most of us don't feel that way. The Amiga is still a good buy.
Thanks, rich
Richard R. Johnson
Mark wrote:
> > And isn't that exactly what they are doing with OS4? ;-)
>
> I thought they were making a slick-looking version of Linux for an Intel
> based PC (oh, wait. It's a PPC now) and calling it "Amiga"? But I'm cynical
> by nature, so take that for what it's worth :) I'm not really interested in
> the "Next-Gen" Amiga. I have a PC already, and it does everything I want it
> to.
Fine, don't buy one. But don't complain when there is no development. If you
want Amiga development you need to spend money on the Amiga.
> My "legacy" A4000 does some things that my PC can't do, and it's
> interesting and intriguing. But it's just a hobby, and I have no plans of
> switching back full time to Amiga. (in any form)
Yep, it does and that is why I have my Amiga and why I invest money in it. It is
more than a hobby to me and many others like myself.
>
>
> > Amiga legacy dependence is gone finally. All the 3.1
> > kickstart rom is good for is older legacy Amigas and
> > emulators.
>
> And that's exactly why the code (not the chips themselves, of course) should
> be free. Kickstart 3.1 has had it's day in the sun. It was (and still is, to
> some extent) a great kernel, but it's past it's commercially viable
> lifespan. Everyone knows it, and only the ridiculously honest emulator users
> actually pay for it. And regarding UAE- There's detailed instructions on how
> to transfer roms, systems disks, software, etc, from your Amiga to your PC
> to use in UAE, so does anyone REALLY care about software laws where that's
> concerned?
Yes, a lot of us do care and the ones who are doing as you suggest are hurting
the rest of us. If these UAE users were buying Amigas and the software and
stuff, the Amiga would be in better shape than it is now.
> "I think I'll just go out and buy an extra set of roms and
> another copy of 3.9 because I feel SO GUILTY running the same copy on UAE
> and my Amiga at the same time." Give me a break.
Please go do this and you will being helping the whole Amiga community.
>
>
> >
> > Should it be free? The code maybe, but the chip?
> > You're talking physical hardware and time here.
>
> The crux of this conversation is about the actual code, not the medium it's
> stored on. The original poster asked for advice on burning the rom to an
> eprom himself, remember?
>
> > All in all it really doesn't matter. Amiga Inc. owns
> > it and is in their rights to see how it is distributed.
>
> And helpful "suggestions" from the community may someday steer them in the
> right direction. But as long as they're leeching money off diehard Amigans
> for an outdated rom and screaming "PIRATE" at everyone who wants to run
> 3.5/9 and doesn't want to throw away that extra 40 bucks, I get the feeling
> they're not listening to us.
You aren't throwing away forty dollars and they are pirates and they are hurting
the whole Amiga community. They are listening. Do you think MS listens to there
users. NOT. What do you think the DOJ lawsuit was all about.
> The rom should be included, in software form,
> along with a softkicker and/or instructions on burning it yourself, with
> every dist of 3.5/9
Well your opinion doesn't fit reality. Buy the Hardware and the software,
support the Amiga community.
Richard R. Johnson
PaSha wrote:
> particular version of kickstart?\
Yes, that would be legal. One kickstart, one machine.
Richard R. Johnson
Mark Stewart wrote:
you would have to check with Gary at Amiga Inc. I don't know.
Paul Gable
"Mark" <mark...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 222 143490 <OwGI8.151403$xS2.12...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca>
>
> "Paul Gable" <greml...@bbigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:891214...@ip68-7-2-213.sd.sd.cox.net...
> <====SNIP==========>
the computer that was out at the time of the 1000. You can run 3.9 on
any Amiga with just a 68020 with 14 Mhz. Now what is the requirements
for bloated Windows XP? Oh yeah, 400 Mhz. That means the oldest hardware
you can have is about 3 years old. Hmm, whos cheating who here. Oh yeah
and try flashing the ROM of that PCjr while you're at it. BOOOM!!!
Paul
Sean
> Can somebody tell me where to find plans to change the kickstart roms to
> selfmade Eproms? and how to burn them?
You need an image file of the ROM that is mapped to the original $F80000
address range, and an eprom programmer that can take 40 pin 16 bit
eproms (like the EMP-10, EMP-20,etc). You then need to find a 512kbyteX
16 eprom and burn it.
It would probably be cheaper to just buy a prefab ROM.
...Sean.
Sean
>
> Yes, a lot of us do care and the ones who are doing as you suggest are hurting
> the rest of us. If these UAE users were buying Amigas and the software and
> stuff, the Amiga would be in better shape than it is now.
The reason they're using UAE in the first place is because they are not
committed enough to spend money on actual gear. You can't expect mere
Amiga appreciators to live by the same credo as Amiga enthusiasts.
...Sean.
Sean
>> How about this: If you have a kickstart-chip just lying around by itself,
> as
>> in not installed in any amiga, would it then be legal to softkick that
>> particular version of kickstart?
The same thing applies to other media. If you bought a CD which was
subsequently stolen or destroyed, is it okay to download the MP3's?
Is the license tied to the IP itself or the media?
...Sean.
Ant
> > based PC (oh, wait. It's a PPC now) and calling it "Amiga"? But I'm
cynical
> > by nature, so take that for what it's worth :) I'm not really interested
in
> > the "Next-Gen" Amiga. I have a PC already, and it does everything I want
it
> > to.
>
> Fine, don't buy one. But don't complain when there is no development. If
you
> want Amiga development you need to spend money on the Amiga.
Umm... If he isn't going to actually own one, why would he moan about lack
of development? I don't own an Atari Jaguar, and I certainly don't complain
that no-one makes games for it any more. Do you worry about the lack of
development for the ZX-81?
Ant
> then guess what, you have to pay for a new one. It ain't difficult ROMs
are
> like anything else you buy and subject to the same laws regarding being
> suitable for use.
Don't you buy the licence to use the ROM code, not the ROM itself (thinking
with my Microsoft head on at the moment). If so, even if the hardware is
faulty, you should still be able to use the code it contains? And
therefore, you can legally copy that code (that you have paid to use) to
another chip?
Mark
> > "Paul Gable" <greml...@bbigfoot.com> wrote in message
> > news:891214...@ip68-7-2-213.sd.sd.cox.net...
> > <====SNIP==========>
> Try running OS3.9 on an unexpanded A1000. What's your point?
> Now that is just silly. I didn't say run Windows XP on an 8086 which is
> the computer that was out at the time of the 1000. You can run 3.9 on
> any Amiga with just a 68020 with 14 Mhz. Now what is the requirements
> for bloated Windows XP? Oh yeah, 400 Mhz.
Not so at all. I had an old Cyrix/IBM PR200 running at 166MHz and I tried
installing XP on it. It worked fine. You do, however, need 64MB of ram. I'm
not saying it ran *fast*, but it ran. How fast does 3.9 run on a 1200 with
it's '020 @ 14 MHz? Not even usable. And let's not forget the fact that the
PC-clone platform runs many different OS's.. one is not required to run
Windoze if one does not want to.
>That means the oldest hardware
> you can have is about 3 years old. Hmm, whos cheating who here. Oh yeah
> and try flashing the ROM of that PCjr while you're at it. BOOOM!!!
> Paul
>
Now *that's* silly.
-Mark
John Oyler
*snipped*
> It's ridiculous. Amiga Inc. owns Amiga.
> Maybe they should do something for *Amigans* for once.
> Kickstart 3.1 should be free. If Amiga Inc. wants to do something for the
> Amiga community, they should re-write the kernel from scratch, instead of
> whining and cringing about people pirating a 9 year old kernel. If for
> nothing else, to allow people to "try before they buy". Do you think
> Microsoft worries about people "sharing" Windows 3.1?
>
> -Mark
Actually, I agree with you, but think it's unrealistic to expect them to
ever do anything for us. What we should do, is forget about them as a
company, and work on AROS. Make our own rom, and instruct people how to
burn it. Wish I was able to help on such a project...
John
Henrik Berglund SdU
>
> Actually, I agree with you, but think it's unrealistic to expect them to
> ever do anything for us. What we should do, is forget about them as a
> company, and work on AROS. Make our own rom, and instruct people how to
> burn it. Wish I was able to help on such a project...
You are welcome to help us with AROS.
John Oyler
Thank you for welcoming me, but I doubt that I'd be able to help in any
significant way. "No talent" describes me much better than I'm
comfortable admitting.
Thanks,
John
John Oyler
>
> Fine, don't buy one. But don't complain when there is no development. If you
> want Amiga development you need to spend money on the Amiga.
>
I'm sorry, but this is just so ***WRONG***. Honestly, do you expect us
to believe that any money made off this rom in the last year or two, has
actually funded further amiga development? The truth is, with very few
high-priced exceptions, has any money spent on amiga hardware went to
develop amiga products. And certainly none of those european companies
is Amiga Inc. It is beyond the pale of ludicrous to suggest that if the
original poster had burned the rom, that it would have affected anyone's
bottom line even a single nickle. Are you still cranking out 3.1 roms
that I don't know about, and using this as the financial foundation for
AmigaOne?
> > And that's exactly why the code (not the chips themselves, of course) should
> > be free. Kickstart 3.1 has had it's day in the sun. It was (and still is, to
> > some extent) a great kernel, but it's past it's commercially viable
> > lifespan. Everyone knows it, and only the ridiculously honest emulator users
> > actually pay for it. And regarding UAE- There's detailed instructions on how
> > to transfer roms, systems disks, software, etc, from your Amiga to your PC
> > to use in UAE, so does anyone REALLY care about software laws where that's
> > concerned?
>
> Yes, a lot of us do care and the ones who are doing as you suggest are hurting
> the rest of us. If these UAE users were buying Amigas and the software and
> stuff, the Amiga would be in better shape than it is now.
Unfair. It wouldn't be helping you, it would be increasing demand for a
limited amount of vintage hardware, driving up the already priced-gouged
prices. It wouldn't generate a nickel of revenue for Amiga Inc, or any
third party vendors. And no matter how you look at it, the classic Amiga
is dead. I myself hope for some type of ressurection, but it is
undeniably dead. How could it be in better shape, no matter what was
done?
> > "I think I'll just go out and buy an extra set of roms and
> > another copy of 3.9 because I feel SO GUILTY running the same copy on UAE
> > and my Amiga at the same time." Give me a break.
>
> Please go do this and you will being helping the whole Amiga community.
No, that will be one less 3.1 rom that someone else can buy, and in a
supply and demand system, that means someone else has to pay more for
theirs. That's help I could personally do without...
> You aren't throwing away forty dollars and they are pirates and they are hurting
> the whole Amiga community. They are listening. Do you think MS listens to there
> users. NOT. What do you think the DOJ lawsuit was all about.
That's strange, anytime I have something to say about what a new Amiga
should be, I'm ignored, or even verbally attacked by McEwen sycophants.
As far as I'm aware, you've embraced every single failing strategy that
Be Inc. ever had. It would be fun to see you fail spectacularly, except
that I know that this truly was the last rally. And yet, the
bastardizations that you claim will become a next-gen amiga almost
deserve to die. Even the Atari ST is more alive than the amiga, at least
the Hades and Milan are true descendants of the original machine.
> > The rom should be included, in software form,
> > along with a softkicker and/or instructions on burning it yourself, with
> > every dist of 3.5/9
>
> Well your opinion doesn't fit reality. Buy the Hardware and the software,
> support the Amiga community.
No, his opinion doesn't fit the close-minded unnecessarily stingy
attitudes of those like yourself. Apple gives away it's legacy OS, and
I've never heard of financial analysts suggesting that it was committing
some kind of fiscal suicide.
Buy the amiga hardware and software, and support the price-gouging
bastards who generally never even used the stuff themselves (Think I'm
kidding? Check on ebay sometime, the prices that original owners set is
easily 15-30% lower than the "dealers" that probably buy this stuff up
for chump change at auctions and yard sales.)
John O.
John Oyler
>
>
> > How about if it is a bad rom that is useless. It was paid for and now
> >doesn't
> >function. Shouldn't he be able to use a burned image of a good rom to
> >replace
> >his defective one? Provided of course they are the same versions
>
> Then return it for a good one if it came damaged. If you broke it yourself
> then guess what, you have to pay for a new one. It ain't difficult ROMs are
> like anything else you buy and subject to the same laws regarding being
> suitable for use.
Sorry, but the intellectual property nazi's can't have it both ways. If
it is only hardware that can be broken, then there are no moral concerns
to get in the way of him making his own new one. And if it is some sort
of intellectual property that he licenses, but doesn't own, then the
owner has the moral obligation of replacing the media for a nominal fee.
Probably something along the lines of $5 for the chip, and shipping.
Of course, intellectual property nazi's want it both ways anyway,
because that maximizes profits even when they aren't morally entitled to
it. And since there are plenty of rich IPnazi's lobbying congress, guess
what, they soon will have it both ways.
But I'll be damned if I let them play mindgames with me, making me
believe it's immoral.
John O.
Gl...@canit.se
+Sean <Stalk...@excite.com> wrote
Probably depending on your local laws.. and in the stolen case i have no clue,
but if I destroy a CD, I'm still allowed to have it on tape, CD or MP3 or
whatever I want..
I also have alot of old vinyl LP's, and downloaded the whole albums as
MP3 and then burned them to CD.. fully legal at least in Sweden.
--
| Apollo fastslot accelerators page - Http://www.canit.se/~glenn/apollo.html |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| ___ | Email 姣 Sha...@bay-watch.com |
| / __\ __ | Homepage 姣 http://www.canit.se/~glenn |
| __ / /__ / /__ ____ ____ __ | IRC 姣 XT600 @ IRC-net |
| (__/ /_ // / -_) _ ) _ )__) | Amiga - Silicon Graphics - 8bit comps. |
| \___//_/\__/_//_/_//_/ | T h e K i n g d o m o f S w e d e n |
Ant
> significant way. "No talent" describes me much better than I'm
> comfortable admitting.
I would argue that, based on recent postings, you have a talent for talking
sense. :)
John Oyler
I'd trade it in a second, for some solid EE skills. Or if that were
unavailable, enough kernel hacking skill to be able to contemplate
porting AROS to PPC.
John O.
Mike Leavitt
> Not so at all. I had an old Cyrix/IBM PR200 running at 166MHz and I tried
> installing XP on it. It worked fine. You do, however, need 64MB of ram. I'm
> not saying it ran *fast*, but it ran. How fast does 3.9 run on a 1200 with
> it's '020 @ 14 MHz? Not even usable. And let's not forget the fact that the
> PC-clone platform runs many different OS's.. one is not required to run
> Windoze if one does not want to.
Then an 030/25 makes one heck of a difference. I run it on my spare
machine with 16 fast, 2 chip and no graphics card in ECS, and it looks
quite good, and runs quite fast. No comparison to the 060/50 and EGS
Spectrum here, but quite serviceable. It certainly is not like Win 3.1
on PCTask with an 030/25. Both machines are A3000's, BTW.
--
Mike Leavitt ac...@lafn.org + team Amiga +
Paul Gable
This discussion about the Kickstarts has really been a heated one. I
think that it is time that we sat back and realized the answer to the
simple question. What do we need computers to do for us? Since I have
had a computer, the first one being a C64 BTW, I used my computer for
five primary things:
1. Composing text with a Word Processor
2. Keeping track of my finances(Check book)
3. Games
4. Organizing(Database)
5. and as if my first PC, an IBM Aptiva in 1993, Internet Email, Web,
News,
etc.
Believe it or not, that old C64 did a great job with the first 4 things.
And what CPU did it have? DId it even have a Mhz? I don't know. I know
that it only had 64K of memory. All the programs it had, it was able to
run them using just 64K of memory. Of course you ran only one program at
a time but you get the idea. Now fast forward to the present. A person
goes out to buy their first computer. So what are they going to do with
it? Probably the five things that I have listed above. Now what system
do they need to do this? The salesperson is going to tell them that
he/she is going to NEED at least a Ghz with 256 megs of RAM and a 40 gig
HD. That is the starter system of today. How much of that power are they
going to use? Probably about 100 Mhz and 64 megs of RAM. The most
advanced games out there require no more than a 400 Mhz processor. So
tel me now, why do we need so much power?
I have an answer but I am sure that some will not agree with me and
that is fine. That is the whole point of these groups anyway, right? I
think we need that much power because that is what everyone else has. It
is a simple case of keeping up with the Joneses. You don't think that I
have caught my share of crap from my buddies at work that my computer
only has 50Mhz? Sure I do but that is not going to make me go out and
spend any money on a computer that will be "out of date" in one year.
That is just silly. Don't think that we as Amiga users are immune to
this however because we settle for this out of date hardware. No way!! We do
more boasting about our hardware than anyone else. When was the last
time that you got an Email from someone else that has his complete
computer setup as a signature. We all do that!! Unless we have a base
500 but of course if we had that we probably wouldn't be on this
newgroup now would we? And to end this big long ramble I'd
like to say that here is the setup of my computer:
Amiga 2000, Rev. 6.2, ECS
MegaChip 2 meg Chip RAM
Phase 5 Blizzard 2060, 68060 50 Mhz with 128 Meg of RAM
Spectrum Video card 800x600 at 16 Bit
Delfina Lite Soundcard
Hydra AmigaNet Ethernet Board running Cable Modem Internet
Cat Weasel with HD PC drive working as Amiga HD
9 gig Quantum IDE drive attached to CW
9 gig Micropolis SCSI drive attached to 2060
4x4x16 CDRW attached to CW running MasterISO 2.5
BTW, I am looking for a CHEAP Bigfoot 300W power supply to run all this junk!!
So there
Paul
John Burns
>>
>>
>> > How about if it is a bad rom that is useless. It was paid for and now
>> >doesn't
>> >function. Shouldn't he be able to use a burned image of a good rom to
>> >replace
>> >his defective one? Provided of course they are the same versions
>>
>> Then return it for a good one if it came damaged. If you broke it yourself
>> then guess what, you have to pay for a new one. It ain't difficult, ROMs are
>> like anything else you buy and subject to the same laws regarding being
>> suitable for use.
>Sorry, but the intellectual property nazi's can't have it both ways. If
No one is saying this read the text before responding.
To reiterate for the hard of reading amongst us....
"It was paid for and now doesn't function"
"It was" implies that the item at one point fuctioned "and now" implies that
it no longer does so. No reason why or length of time is given hence the phrasing
of my reply
>it is only hardware that can be broken, then there are no moral concerns
>to get in the way of him making his own new one. And if it is some sort
>of intellectual property that he licenses, but doesn't own, then the
>owner has the moral obligation of replacing the media for a nominal fee.
>Probably something along the lines of $5 for the chip, and shipping.
I'll make it simple for you, if you buy something and it doesn't work then you
are entitled to a refund or replacement. If you buy something and after a period
of use it fails then usually you will have to bear the cost of replacement on your
own (an exception being if it breaks almost immediately).
[SNIPPED some deranged rant about IP and Nazi's]
Please stick to the subject and forget about IP. It's not relevant to the thread
Angelo Vigliotti
"John Oyler" <john....@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3CF5515E...@attbi.com...
Sorry John, Goodwin's LAW.
;-)
Jim
John Oyler
>
> I'll make it simple for you, if you buy something and it doesn't work then you
> are entitled to a refund or replacement. If you buy something and after a period
> of use it fails then usually you will have to bear the cost of replacement on your
> own (an exception being if it breaks almost immediately).
>
> [SNIPPED some deranged rant about IP and Nazi's]
>
> Please stick to the subject and forget about IP. It's not relevant to the thread
Then he is in luck, bearing the cost of replacing it himself will only
cost a few bucks and some time burning the rom. Glad that we can leave
IP out of it for once.
Oh, another thing. If you're actually that dense that you believe it's
neither relevaant to this thread or the most recent postings to it, then
I don't know what to say. Maybe you need to learn to read?
John O.
John Oyler
>
> Sorry John, Goodwin's LAW.
> ;-)
>
> Jim
So? Besides, can't help it, been posting to slashdot too much lately, to
be able to avoid it.
Besides, I noticed you didn't exactly disagree with me.
John O.
Gl...@canit.se
+Mark <mark...@hotmail.com> wrote
>> Try running OS3.9 on an unexpanded A1000. What's your point?
>> Now that is just silly. I didn't say run Windows XP on an 8086 which is
>> the computer that was out at the time of the 1000. You can run 3.9 on
>> any Amiga with just a 68020 with 14 Mhz. Now what is the requirements
>> for bloated Windows XP? Oh yeah, 400 Mhz.
>Not so at all. I had an old Cyrix/IBM PR200 running at 166MHz and I tried
>installing XP on it. It worked fine. You do, however, need 64MB of ram. I'm
>not saying it ran *fast*, but it ran. How fast does 3.9 run on a 1200 with
>it's '020 @ 14 MHz? Not even usable. And let's not forget the fact that the
Have you tried ?
I tried OS 3.5 on my A3000/030-25 16meg and it ran pretty ok.. probably it felt
faster than XP on yor 166Mhz cyrix at least. ..and this is with 16meg
memory, I don't even think you can start XP with anything under 64meg ?
>PC-clone platform runs many different OS's.. one is not required to run
>Windoze if one does not want to.
..but yiu still have to pay for it :/
Mark
little
> > black chip (or two) with 9 year old code on it. Not really cutting edge
or
> > modern, in fact if one want's to bring up SETPATCH, one could argue that
> > it's also buggy as hell. Don't get me wrong- I don't advocate software
> > piracy.
>
> Well Amiga Inc. paid a lot of money to Gateway to get the rights to the
AmigaOS.
> They have a right and a need to recoup that expense. If they were to do as
you
> suggest, they would have to close their doors and then there would be no
Amiga
> at all.
?? By making the 3.1 ROM kernel free, they would go bankrupt? That seems to
be what you're saying. So, minus the resellers cut, AI makes what, maybe a
few bucks on each rom sold? That adds up to exactly diddly squat for AI
anyway.
I don't want to hear about "every dollar counts" either. And Gateway is an
IBM clone reseller who happened to have a surplus cashflow at the time, and
bought up a bankrupt company. Consider yourself lucky that it was them and
not Microsoft. They at least kept it alive and sold it to AI.
> > But when I see modern, cutting edge OS's such as Linux and BeOS, and
> > even QNX being offered up for download *completely free* for personal
use,
> > it makes me wonder who exactly is getting "protected" here- Sure, Amiga
Inc
> > owns the rights to the software.
>
> Yep, and I praise the people who are donating their time and money to
develop
> these OSs. But Amiga Inc. is a commercial concern that is in the business
of
> making a profit. So they have to charge for the IP that they hold.
So are the above mentioned companies. (Yes, even Linux sells their various
dists.) It's called market share, which equals developer interest, which
equals actual software written for the platform, which equals investor
interest, advertising dollars, etc.... How does Redhat or Mandrake make
money?
> > I think the thing that bothers me the most
> > is that Amiga Inc. has ZERO to do with the actual development of the rom
> > kernel. It's the same one that was around in 1993, and I highly doubt AI
> > could do a rom update, after all they had to license out development of
> > 3.5/3.9.. and the rom update on that is a PATCH, let's be clear about
it.
>
> Well there are a lot of things that we all pay for that was developed by
someone
> else, but it is now marketed by someone who had nothing to do with its
> development. Take an automobile. Most of the components on today's cars
were not
> developed by the manufacturer, but by someone else. I believe that with
time and
> as Amiga Inc. is able to improve their cash flow, we will see an R&D team
come
> on board. But it really doesn't matter, if the R&D is done in house or if
it is
> done by a sub-contractor. In fact most modern businesses done have their
R&D
> done out of house.
So, what exactly *does* AI do? I'll tell you what they do- own the rights,
and leech the users. That is lazy (think slumlord) and it makes me want to
see them fail.
> > On the
> > other hand, I do not think the 3.1 roms should be sold commercially,
that's
> > just my opinion, but I think the Amiga community, who's suffered enough
> > already doesn't need to be ripped off yet again.
>
> Well as I said above, Amiga Inc. needs to recover their investment. I
don't feel
> like I am being ripped off. The Amiga has always been a good price value
> machine. The ones that ripped us off were those crooks that took over C=
and
> then raped the company. I truly believe that Amiga Inc. has our best
interests
> at heart, but it is going to take time for them to get going again after
all the
> things that have happened.
"good price value"? Here's an exaple of "good price value" as you describe
it- A4000/040/18MB ram/1GB system drive/Video Toaster-Flyer/4GB video
drive/2GB audio drive...... actual retail price, in 1996, about $20,000,
current market value, about $1500. Compare that to- IBM clone with more
power than you need, and a vidcap card- maybe $700. Where's the value?
>
> > Come on, what is the real
> > world value for 512Kb of (heavily padded, BTW), 9 years out of date
code? We
> > already have to pay 100 or so dollars for an ethernet card which can be
had
> > on the PC platform for 20 bucks. We already have to pay upwards of $800
for
> > an accelerator card which might have been modern and cutting edge on
other
> > platforms 5 years ago.... people threw away PC video cards with chipsets
> > that drive $500 Amiga video cards.
>
> The prices are because of the quantity that are being produced or not
produced.
> This is supply and demand at work. When you make a few thousand cards you
are
> going to have to charge a lot more per card than if you produced several
million
> cards.
Yes, I understand *that*, but you avoided the real question- what is the
real-world value for a 9 year old kernel? If your answer is "As much as we
can get out of desperate Amigans clinging to their platform", then you are a
Nazi. It should be free.
>
> > It's ridiculous. Amiga Inc. owns Amiga.
> > Maybe they should do something for *Amigans* for once.
> > Kickstart 3.1 should be free.
>
> They are, be patient and hang in there.
(Where have I heard that before?)
>
> > If Amiga Inc. wants to do something for the
> > Amiga community, they should re-write the kernel from scratch, instead
of
> > whining and cringing about people pirating a 9 year old kernel.
>
> They are, it is called OS4.0.
So, OS4.0 will run on my 4000, and not require me to have Kick3.1 rom
installed?
Richard R. Johnson
Mark wrote:
>
> >
> > Well Amiga Inc. paid a lot of money to Gateway to get the rights to the
> AmigaOS.
> > They have a right and a need to recoup that expense. If they were to do as
> you
> > suggest, they would have to close their doors and then there would be no
> Amiga
> > at all.
>
> ?? By making the 3.1 ROM kernel free, they would go bankrupt? That seems to
> be what you're saying. So, minus the resellers cut, AI makes what, maybe a
> few bucks on each rom sold? That adds up to exactly diddly squat for AI
> anyway.
And every little bit helps. I don't know how much AI makes on each rom and on
the OS, but they do make something and they have the right to do so.
>
> I don't want to hear about "every dollar counts" either. And Gateway is an
> IBM clone reseller who happened to have a surplus cashflow at the time, and
> bought up a bankrupt company. Consider yourself lucky that it was them and
> not Microsoft. They at least kept it alive and sold it to AI.
Well actually Gateway buying the Amiga rights hurt the Amiga market and pushed
up the costs of the IP.
>
>
> > > But when I see modern, cutting edge OS's such as Linux and BeOS, and
> > > even QNX being offered up for download *completely free* for personal
> use,
> > > it makes me wonder who exactly is getting "protected" here- Sure, Amiga
> Inc
> > > owns the rights to the software.
> >
> > Yep, and I praise the people who are donating their time and money to
> develop
> > these OSs. But Amiga Inc. is a commercial concern that is in the business
> of
> > making a profit. So they have to charge for the IP that they hold.
>
> So are the above mentioned companies. (Yes, even Linux sells their various
> dists.) It's called market share, which equals developer interest, which
> equals actual software written for the platform, which equals investor
> interest, advertising dollars, etc.... How does Redhat or Mandrake make
> money?
Not relevant, we are discussing the Amiga kickstart and OS here. Amiga Inc. owns
the IP and has the right to charge for it. I support that right.
>
>
>
> come
> > on board. But it really doesn't matter, if the R&D is done in house or if
> it is
> > done by a sub-contractor. In fact most modern businesses done have their
> R&D
> > done out of house.
>
> So, what exactly *does* AI do? I'll tell you what they do- own the rights,
> and leech the users. That is lazy (think slumlord) and it makes me want to
> see them fail.
Well I disagree completely and frankly we don't need people like you. So take a
hike and go climb back under the rock that you came out from under.
>
>
> > like I am being ripped off. The Amiga has always been a good price value
> > machine. The ones that ripped us off were those crooks that took over C=
> and
> > then raped the company. I truly believe that Amiga Inc. has our best
> interests
> > at heart, but it is going to take time for them to get going again after
> all the
> > things that have happened.
>
> "good price value"? Here's an exaple of "good price value" as you describe
> it- A4000/040/18MB ram/1GB system drive/Video Toaster-Flyer/4GB video
> drive/2GB audio drive...... actual retail price, in 1996, about $20,000,
> current market value, about $1500. Compare that to- IBM clone with more
> power than you need, and a vidcap card- maybe $700. Where's the value?
Yes good price-value, because I don't have to go buy new software and then need
new hardware to support that software every year or two. Yes I will have to pay
more in the short run, but a lot less in the long run.
>
>
>
> > This is supply and demand at work. When you make a few thousand cards you
> are
> > going to have to charge a lot more per card than if you produced several
> million
> > cards.
>
> Yes, I understand *that*, but you avoided the real question- what is the
> real-world value for a 9 year old kernel? If your answer is "As much as we
> can get out of desperate Amigans clinging to their platform", then you are a
> Nazi. It should be free.
Boy, you are really a hateful person aren't you. You sound like a communist. I
want it for free. I deserve it free because I was put on this planet by some
people who wish I wasn't around. Poor me, boo, hoo, I'm so mistreated. Get off
your butt and start contributing to the world, instead of trying to tear it
down. BTW, get a life. I really pity you, you poor decrepit soul.
>
>
> >>
> > > If Amiga Inc. wants to do something for the
> > > Amiga community, they should re-write the kernel from scratch, instead
> of
> > > whining and cringing about people pirating a 9 year old kernel.
> >
> > They are, it is called OS4.0.
>
> So, OS4.0 will run on my 4000, and not require me to have Kick3.1 rom
> installed?
I'm afraid you will have to buy new hardware. Great suns of MS. Well this is
what you people wanted. I'll stick with my Amiga. I am going to get a Mediator
through.
Mark
rights,
> > and leech the users. That is lazy (think slumlord) and it makes me want
to
> > see them fail.
>
> Well I disagree completely and frankly we don't need people like you. So
take a
> hike and go climb back under the rock that you came out from under.
Oh my, I think I've hit a nerve.
> > Yes, I understand *that*, but you avoided the real question- what is the
> > real-world value for a 9 year old kernel? If your answer is "As much as
we
> > can get out of desperate Amigans clinging to their platform", then you
are a
> > Nazi. It should be free.
> Boy, you are really a hateful person aren't you. You sound like a
communist. I
> want it for free. I deserve it free because I was put on this planet by
some
> people who wish I wasn't around. Poor me, boo, hoo, I'm so mistreated. Get
off
> your butt and start contributing to the world, instead of trying to tear
it
> down. BTW, get a life. I really pity you, you poor decrepit soul.
Take note- I haven't abused this Rich guy *once* in the entire course of
this discussion. I wasn't looking for a flame war at all, I was stating a)
some facts b) some opinions. When he get's backed into a corner a bit, he
comes out flaming. Real classy, Rich. That's how disagreements are won- by
calling the other person names. Note I said *If your answer is* and *then
you are a Nazi*. I did NOT say you were one, unless that was your answer to
my question. (Which, BTW, you STILL didn't answer)
> > > > If Amiga Inc. wants to do something for the
> > > > Amiga community, they should re-write the kernel from scratch,
instead
> > of
> > > > whining and cringing about people pirating a 9 year old kernel.
> > >
> > > They are, it is called OS4.0.
> >
> > So, OS4.0 will run on my 4000, and not require me to have Kick3.1 rom
> > installed?
>
> I'm afraid you will have to buy new hardware. Great suns of MS. Well this
is
> what you people wanted. I'll stick with my Amiga. I am going to get a
Mediator
> through.
> rich
> Team *AMIGA*
I guess you've made my point better than I ever could myself. Thank you.
-Mark
Paul Gable
> I'm afraid you will have to buy new hardware. Great suns of MS. Well this is
> what you people wanted. I'll stick with my Amiga. I am going to get a Mediator
> through.
Amen Rich. Why does this guy who thinks that the Amiga is such a weak
imferior system doing wasting his time talking to us rabble after all. I
can't believe he's wasted this much time whining about a ROM that only
costs $40. How many PC GAMES are there that cost more than that. Just one
game and he's whining about an entire OS. BTW, even DOS and Windows 3.1
are not
freeware STILL . Microsoft knocked a couple sites off recently that were trying to offer
downloads of the software. I bet even if you look now, you are not going
to find any sites offering downloads of this "I think it should be free"
software. As for Apple. agreed they do allow downloading of 7.5.3 which
there is almost no demand for. Apple still charges for 7.1 though as it
is required for certain older 68K Macs and they ain't stupid over at
Apple. They know when they got ya by the short hairs.
Peace
Paul
John Oyler
>
> Boy, you are really a hateful person aren't you. You sound like a communist. I
> want it for free. I deserve it free because I was put on this planet by some
> people who wish I wasn't around. Poor me, boo, hoo, I'm so mistreated. Get off
> your butt and start contributing to the world, instead of trying to tear it
> down. BTW, get a life. I really pity you, you poor decrepit soul.
Funny. You weren't so viscious when I was letting you name your own
price on some hardware you needed and I didn't.
It's also sad that you admitted you (and by extension, AInc.) neither
need nor want Mark as a customer. That's just so... there are no words.
Like I said, sooner or later, hopefully the amiga community will realize
that we can't rely on companies to give us what we want. We should all
be working on AROS, including a free kickstart.
John O.
Angelo Vigliotti
heehee, ok ya got me there, guilty. ;-)
Jim
Mark
> "Richard R. Johnson" <mech...@mwt.net> wrote:
> > I'm afraid you will have to buy new hardware. Great suns of MS. Well
this is
> > what you people wanted. I'll stick with my Amiga. I am going to get a
Mediator
> > through.
>
> Amen Rich. Why does this guy who thinks that the Amiga is such a weak
> imferior system doing wasting his time talking to us rabble after all. I
> can't believe he's wasted this much time whining about a ROM that only
> costs $40. How many PC GAMES are there that cost more than that. Just one
> game and he's whining about an entire OS. BTW, even DOS and Windows 3.1
> are not
> freeware STILL . Microsoft knocked a couple sites off recently that were
trying to offer
> downloads of the software. I bet even if you look now, you are not going
> to find any sites offering downloads of this "I think it should be free"
> software. As for Apple. agreed they do allow downloading of 7.5.3 which
> there is almost no demand for. Apple still charges for 7.1 though as it
> is required for certain older 68K Macs and they ain't stupid over at
> Apple. They know when they got ya by the short hairs.
> Peace
> Paul
BAH HA HA HA HA! You're so full of shit I can smell it from here. I was
going to say that I'm more of an Amigan than you could ever dream of being,
but after reading some of the garbage that comes out of rich's and your
mouth, I'm not so sure I want to be affiliated with the likes of you. I
haven't gotten *one* question answered yet- WHAT IS THE REAL WORLD VALUE OF
NINE YEAR OLD CODE? All either of you have done is agree with each other and
try to avoid the topic. Oh, and rich called me a bunch of names, and you've
babbled on about big bad Microsoft a bit. Do you two always agree on
everything? Awww, how nice. What a cute couple!
-Mark
Ant
> NINE YEAR OLD CODE?
Game Boy Advance version of Mario World? Doom? Speedball 2? Wings? Mario
2? Donkey Kong? Desert Strike? Golden Axe? Columns? Puyo Puyo? Mario
Kart? Game Boy Colo(u)r versions of Cannon Fodder, Mario 1, etc?
I'd say, for Nintendo and their retailers at least, it's worth between
£30-35 a unit, depending on where you buy your cartridges from. And you
won't get DOS6.22/Win3.1 free from Microsoft, either, but I think that's
been covered already (cannae be arsed to check).
Have you ever tried Amstrad PCW emulation? The system disks (Locoscript,
CP/M, etc) are still commercially available; in fact, the PCW's intellectual
property is more closely guarded than the Amiga ROMs (which can be download
from any of a multitude of badly-made emulation sites). And that system's
been gone a lot longer than the Amiga. The company that made WordStar seems
to be relying entirely upon current PCW software sales and services
(particularly copying data from those stupid Amstrad-specific 3" disks).
On the subject of Amstrad, there's the e-Mailer Plus, which enables you to
download Speccy games at 12p a pop; some of those are nearly as old as I am,
especially some of the better ones (Attic Attack, 1984; Speccy games go back
to 1982; I go back a bit further). Sky currently charge 50p for a go on a
digital recreation of Space Invaders, and that *is* older than I am.
If you can find some fool to pay for it, then it (*it* being old code) then
it obviously has a real-world value.
Paul Gable
> BAH HA HA HA HA! You're so full of shit I can smell it from here. I was
> going to say that I'm more of an Amigan than you could ever dream of being,
> but after reading some of the garbage that comes out of rich's and your
> mouth, I'm not so sure I want to be affiliated with the likes of you. I
> haven't gotten *one* question answered yet- WHAT IS THE REAL WORLD VALUE OF
> NINE YEAR OLD CODE? All either of you have done is agree with each other and
> try to avoid the topic. Oh, and rich called me a bunch of names, and you've
> babbled on about big bad Microsoft a bit. Do you two always agree on
> everything? Awww, how nice. What a cute couple!
> -Mark
>
>
>
Calm down Mark,
Geez, some people like to spout opinions but can't take them. I don't
see how the age of code really matters. I'm missing your point here.
Isn't there such a thing as Copyrights in your "let's get everything for
free" world? Also, if you noticed, I mentioned both Apple and Microsoft.
I wasn't bashing either company. I was just saying that they also
protect their code. Another thing. Remember all those old Atari games
from the 80s? You can't even download those ancient 20 year old ROMs
without going through Gnutella or Wares sites. In addition, arcade
machine ROMs are also impossible to download from reputable sites and
those games aren't making ANYONE any money anymore. I'm sure "Donkey
Kong" is going to make a comeback in arcades around the nation. All I am saying is that
Amiga Inc. isn't alone in protecting their intellectual property.
Drink a glass of warm milk and call me in the morning, kay Mark?
Paul
Mark
comments, and re-read it in a kinder tone. But the jist of what I'm saying
is still what I think. And think for yourself a bit, eh? You suddenly bring
up old games, co-incidentally right after Ant mentions old Nintendo games,
etc... I'm not talking about games or operating systems- I'm talking about
code which is required to make a machine even *function*... here's the way I
see it: AI produces a major update to an operating system (OS3.5) charges
about 80 bucks for it. Fine, I can use the AmigaOS 3.0 that my 4000 came
with, download a bunch of patches/enhancements (most of which are free, BTW)
and get a very similar "look and feel"... but 3.5 comes like that out of the
box, so maybe, to save the hassle, I give it a try. My first stepping stone-
requires the 3.1 roms. Which are 40 bucks from Centsible or Softhut, plus
shipping to Canada. Say 50 bucks US. There's $130 US out of pocket for an OS
that STILL REQUIRES WORKBENCH 3.1 INSTALLED to install... are they assuming
that every Amiga user owns 3.1 already? As I said before, the rom should be
included on the 3.5/9 CD along with a softkicker. You can talk about old
Atari games till you're blue in the face, that will not change my opinion.
I've never ever *suggested* that any part of the Workbench should be free.
And regardless of some opinions that a major part of the OS is in rom, if
you boot without an OS installed, you get a plain Amigados prompt with
almost zero functionality, unless you insert a disk and don't mind typing
explicit path names and a lot of assigns. In fact, it has a lot less
functionality than a bog-minimal installation of Linux, which is..... free.
If AI wants to make it as expensive and difficult as possible for users to
run their (update) OS, they deserve to have their IP pirated.
Paul Gable
There's $130 US out of pocket for an OS
> that STILL REQUIRES WORKBENCH 3.1 INSTALLED to install... are they assuming
> that every Amiga user owns 3.1 already?
OS 3.5 includes WB 3.1 on the disk. 3.9 doesn't require any Workbench to
be installed.
Peace
Paul
Angelo Vigliotti
"Mark" <mark...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:OiTJ8.165725$GG6.14...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca...
> BAH HA HA HA HA! You're so full of shit I can smell it from here. I was
> going to say that I'm more of an Amigan than you could ever dream of
being,
> but after reading some of the garbage that comes out of rich's and your
> mouth, I'm not so sure I want to be affiliated with the likes of you. I
> haven't gotten *one* question answered yet- WHAT IS THE REAL WORLD VALUE
OF
> NINE YEAR OLD CODE? All either of you have done is agree with each other
and
> try to avoid the topic. Oh, and rich called me a bunch of names, and
you've
> babbled on about big bad Microsoft a bit. Do you two always agree on
> everything? Awww, how nice. What a cute couple!
> -Mark
Price for 9 year old code?
PRICELESS if you "need" it to run something. ;-)
If you can figure out the difference between need and want
let me know.
Jim
Raj
wrote:
>> support the Amiga community.
>
>No, his opinion doesn't fit the close-minded unnecessarily stingy
>attitudes of those like yourself. Apple gives away it's legacy OS, and
>I've never heard of financial analysts suggesting that it was committing
>some kind of fiscal suicide.
Well said John! I have run into this many times with a few of the
individuals here. *sigh*
>Buy the amiga hardware and software, and support the price-gouging
>bastards who generally never even used the stuff themselves (Think I'm
>kidding? Check on ebay sometime, the prices that original owners set is
>easily 15-30% lower than the "dealers" that probably buy this stuff up
>for chump change at auctions and yard sales.)
VERY true. I can believe the prices Software Hut charges. i.e.
@ 16mb simm ------ $ 39.95 USD
@ 2mb simm ------ $ 64.95 USD
What?!?! I can (and have) buy four (4) 16mb simms on eBay for $15 USD
@ VooDoo III 3000 PCI w/16mb Graphics Card for Mediator -- $ 74.95
Absolutely LUDICROUS! I found the exact same card on eBay for $20 USD
@ External Disk Drive 880k -- $69.00
Crazy!!! Call Centsible and order it from them for $20 USD
@ Cybervision 64 3D A2/3/4000 $ ---- 239.95
Ouch! Even on eBay you might pay $150 for this.
@ Cyberstorm MK III 060/50MHz 3/4000 ---- $635.00
HAHAHA! A top of the line Pentium 4 Xeon 2.2GHz only costs $296 USD!!!
@ A3640 Accelerator card w/040-25MHz CPU for A3000/A4000 -- $159.95
I picked up my second one of these on eBay for $80 USD (From
Centsible)
@ A2091 SCSI Controller Rev 7 OK -- $74.95
Found these for $10 USD on eBay
I'm sorry but I will *not* support Amiga resellers who charge so much
for hardware that can be purchased for so much less elsewhere. This is
just plain old price gouging. A very sad situation indeed. :(
/*Raj*/
Paul Gable
> 222 143631 <1fghfuohmesru5lnq...@4ax.com>
> VERY true. I can believe the prices Software Hut charges. i.e.
>
> @ 16mb simm ------ $ 39.95 USD
> @ 2mb simm ------ $ 64.95 USD
>
> What?!?! I can (and have) buy four (4) 16mb simms on eBay for $15 USD
>
> @ VooDoo III 3000 PCI w/16mb Graphics Card for Mediator -- $ 74.95
>
> Absolutely LUDICROUS! I found the exact same card on eBay for $20 USD
>
> @ External Disk Drive 880k -- $69.00
>
> Crazy!!! Call Centsible and order it from them for $20 USD
>
> @ Cybervision 64 3D A2/3/4000 $ ---- 239.95
>
> Ouch! Even on eBay you might pay $150 for this.
>
> @ Cyberstorm MK III 060/50MHz 3/4000 ---- $635.00
>
> HAHAHA! A top of the line Pentium 4 Xeon 2.2GHz only costs $296 USD!!!
>
> @ A3640 Accelerator card w/040-25MHz CPU for A3000/A4000 -- $159.95
>
> I picked up my second one of these on eBay for $80 USD (From
> Centsible)
>
> @ A2091 SCSI Controller Rev 7 OK -- $74.95
>
> Found these for $10 USD on eBay
>
> I'm sorry but I will *not* support Amiga resellers who charge so much
> for hardware that can be purchased for so much less elsewhere. This is
> just plain old price gouging. A very sad situation indeed. :(
>
> /*Raj*/
>
Yeah, but where are you going to go when you REALLY need something. Sure
the 2630 rev. 7 ROMs cost $29. Outrageous!! But I need to put a 2630
into a 2000 with 3.1 Kickstart. Now what do I do. Wait around for that
once in a year auction featuring that particular EPROM? NOT!! In
addition, the 3.1 Kickstart ROMs can be had for $25 for the A500/2000 on
Software Hut. On Ebay, often you will pay more than $30 for these ROMs.
Go figure.
Paul
Mark
require anything to be installed, that's at least a step in the right
direction, BUT... it still requires the 3.1 ROM. Remember how Commodore used
to ship it's new OS with rom chips? Why won't AInc. do the same? Why haven't
they made Kickstart 4.0? Because they own the rights to 3.1, and they'd
rather leech a bit of money off that than actually make an effort and write
a new bootstrap. (They can put a Rom Update on the disk, why not a new rom
altogether?) Lazy, I tell you.
-Mark
Raj
wrote:
>company, and work on AROS. Make our own rom, and instruct people how to
>burn it. Wish I was able to help on such a project...
I can and will burn any AROS ROMs if the project needs help. No, I
will not copy the Amiga Kickstart ROMs. :) I haven't followed AROS at
all but I have heard of it.
C-ya!
/*Raj*/
Paul Gable
You're right and I'm wrong. You win and I lose. This conversation has gotten really
dull. Let's talk about something that really matters. No matter what
either of us think. AI is going to do what it feels like and as long as
they own the rights, why shouldn't they? Amiga is Dead. Long live the
Amiga!!!
Paul
Raj
Gable) wrote:
>Yeah, but where are you going to go when you REALLY need something. Sure
WHAT?!?! YOU'RE ACTUALLY DEFENDING PRICE GOUGING!?!?!?!
>the 2630 rev. 7 ROMs cost $29. Outrageous!! But I need to put a 2630
>into a 2000 with 3.1 Kickstart. Now what do I do. Wait around for that
>once in a year auction featuring that particular EPROM? NOT!! In
>addition, the 3.1 Kickstart ROMs can be had for $25 for the A500/2000 on
>Software Hut. On Ebay, often you will pay more than $30 for these ROMs.
That's the main reason I did *not* print the price of the EPROMs or
any of the custom chips. They are pretty much the sole source of those
products and can charge whatever they want. Besides, I could be wrong,
but I think, like Sony does with the PS2, Amiga Inc. sets the price of
the Kickstart ROM.
Bah! I can't believe I'm even continuing this thread... price gouging
is just wrong. :( Software Hut's prices are just wrong...
/*Raj*/
Raj
>You need an image file of the ROM that is mapped to the original $F80000
>address range, and an eprom programmer that can take 40 pin 16 bit
>eproms (like the EMP-10, EMP-20,etc). You then need to find a 512kbyteX
>16 eprom and burn it.
Yep... I have the EMP-11. That with some adapters I ordered cost me
over $400 and some change.
>It would probably be cheaper to just buy a prefab ROM.
>...Sean.
The blank ROMs were $10 a piece. Did I save any money? Hell NO! HAHA!
But it is fun and now I can experiment with the Kickstart code. :)
It's just a hobby.
And before any Amiga zealots attack me... I am only copying them and
burning them for *my* own use for experimentation. I only have one
A3000D and one set of original 3.1 ROMs so I am within my legal
rights.
/*Raj*/
Paul Gable
>
> /*Raj*/
>
the stuff that you are mentioned, then you deserve what you get. It is only price
gouging if you can't get the item elsewhere for less. You , yourself
said that you can get these items for cheaper on Ebay. As a retailer, you
have the right to charge whatever you feel like for the items you sell.
I think you would agree with me that Software Hut is probably not
exactly a high-volume dealer. How do you make up for your high operating
costs as the volume drops? Simple, you raise the prices. I am glad that
Software Hut is out there. They are invaluable for us Amiga owners and
let'd face it. No one said owning an Amiga was going to be cheap. I said my peace, end of story.
Paul
Raj
No reason to start with the name calling... *sigh* Another close
minded person. No wonder Amiga stuff costs so much. Anyone who
supports price gouging is just another zealot. What a hopeless world
the Amiga had slipped into. :(
/*Raj*/
Paul Gable
> 222 143647 <tq0jfus0aemi34nt1...@4ax.com>
> On Sun, 02 Jun 2002 01:08:33 GMT, greml...@bbigfoot.com (Paul
> Gable) wrote:
> >I don't see that, I'm sorry. If you are stupid emough to pay their prices for
> >the stuff that you are mentioned, then you deserve what you get.
> minded person. No wonder Amiga stuff costs so much. Anyone who
> supports price gouging is just another zealot. What a hopeless world
> the Amiga had slipped into. :(
>
> /*Raj*/
>
Reread what I wrote!! I was not calling you any names. I was just
agreeing with you that some of the stuff Software Hut sells, especially
the used stuff is overpriced. I was saying that a person is stupid if
they pay 60 bucks for a floppy drive! I think that part of the problem
of this newgroup is that people jump to conclusions about what people
are saying even before reading it. I may not agree with everything that
is posted here but I do try to read it and understand it before posting
a reply.
Also, the overpriced stuff also exists on Ebay! There is a guy there
that sells STRIPPED Amiga 2000s that he says are "barely used"(which is
total bull BTW) for $100 and he sells probably two or three a month.
There is a sucker born every minute as they say.
Paul
Paul
Raj
Very true... "realpix" IIRC. I have found that Centsible Software is
not that over priced but they do not have the hardware selection that
Software Hut has.
/*Raj*/
Thanks,
/*Raj*/
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Henrik Berglund SdU
>
> I can and will burn any AROS ROMs if the project needs help. No, I
> will not copy the Amiga Kickstart ROMs. :) I haven't followed AROS at
> all but I have heard of it.
Dont think the amiga version of aros works as a rom at the moment
though. But in the future maybe.