The Amiga 1200 Specs - From CBM
Mark....@bbs.actrix.gen.nz
regarding the Amiga 1200. I am a Commodore dealer, I have never signed an
NDA and they don't seem to mind me talking about it. I have a few customers
who use the net and they can verify that this ain't bull. Read on...
Introduction
The A1200 is the most significant product Commodore has released since we
introduced the Amiga 500. The A1200 is seen as the A500 of the 90's. We
should
view the A600 as the entry home computer and the A1200 as a power machine
for
all home hobbyists.
Positioning
The A1200 is much more powerful than the A500 or A600. It is the first
keyboard
integrated machine with the AA chip set and a 32 bit processor.
This will permit 256 colours from a palette of 16.8 million compared to the
A500 and
A600's 32 colours from a palette of 4096. This new chip set also supports
an
enhanced HAM mode allowing near photo realistic image in all resolutions
with up to
256,000 colours. The new A1200 chip set will support VGA productivity
screen (640
x 480 256 colours) at refresh rates up to 72khz interlaced. Sprite sizes
have been
increased from 16bit to 32 and 64 bits wide. Also sprites can be displayed
in screen
borders and have resolutions independent of play fields. The A1200 will
come with 2
megabytes of chip RAM, thus chip RAM expansion is not needed.
The A1200 is a true 32 bit system, with 32 bit RAM, and ROM using the 14Mhz
(2 x
A500/A600) clock speed 32 bit 68E020 processor. This processor not runs at
twice
the speed of the A500/A600 but also has a 256 byte instruction cache. These
capabilities enable the A1200 to achieve performance that is up to 5 times
that of the
A500/A600.
The A1200 is packaged in the new style case, but will support the addition
of a
numeric keypad, as in the A500+. This package also supports the addition of
an
internal 2.5" IDE hard drive, as in the A600.
The A1200 retains the PCMCIA card port for memory and I/O expansion, but
also
adds a 32 bit processor bus expansion port accessible via a door on the
bottom of
the unit. This port is similar to the A500 expansion port, but is not
compatible. This
port is enhanced to 32 bits and 14Mhz operation. Cards/Adapters can have
access
to the port allowing:
- Accelerator processors
- DSP Processors
- SCSI Adapters
- Fast RAM expansion
- Bridge Cards
Boards added to the expansion bus can have external cable connector access
via a
rear panel knock out.
With the new package, AA chip set, better expansion and high speed 32 bit
processor, the A1200 is a very exciting and competitive product.
The new A1200's are shipped with Amiga DOS 3.0 a backward compatible
extension
to the industry stanard 2.0 which provides full support for the new chip
set enhanced
graphics, and is "localised" for over 14 countries and languages.
All this means is that we have without doubt the most power home computer
in the
world even after our competitors recent launches. With the increase in
colour depth
and screen resolution combined with Amiga's graphics perfomance, the A1200
will
provide better video performance than PC386 systems.
provide better video performance than PC386 systems.
This document is quite interesting, it does not address what hard drive
size will be standard, nor if the HD floppies are used. Its also pretty
hard to say whether the case is an A500 or A600 style. Oh well, thats the
way it goes I suppose...
Tim Ciceran
>The A1200 is the most significant product Commodore has released since we
>introduced the Amiga 500.
Sounds familiar. (A4000?)
>The A1200 is much more powerful than the A500 or A600. It is the first
>keyboard integrated machine with the AA chip set and a 32 bit processor.
Keyboard-integrated... ack!
>The A1200 will come with 2 megabytes of chip RAM, thus chip RAM expansion
>is not needed.
Good stuff.
>The A1200 is a true 32 bit system, with 32 bit RAM, and ROM using the 14Mhz
>(2 x A500/A600) clock speed 32 bit 68E020 processor.
Fair enough.
>The A1200 is packaged in the new style case, but will support the addition
>of a numeric keypad, as in the A500+. This package also supports the addition
>of an internal 2.5" IDE hard drive, as in the A600.
This sounds a little muddled to me. What exactly is the case configuration.
>The A1200 retains the PCMCIA card port for memory and I/O expansion, but
>also adds a 32 bit processor bus expansion port accessible via a door on the
>bottom of the unit.
Interesting. This should spawn low-cost accelerators.
>Cards/Adapters can have access to the port allowing:
> - Accelerator processors
> - DSP Processors
> - SCSI Adapters
> - Fast RAM expansion
Yes!
> - Bridge Cards
Here it is again.
>Boards added to the expansion bus can have external cable connector access
>via a rear panel knock out.
Good idea.
Tommy Petersson
:
.lots deleted
:
: This document is quite interesting, it does not address what hard drive
: size will be standard, nor if the HD floppies are used. Its also pretty
: hard to say whether the case is an A500 or A600 style. Oh well, thats the
: way it goes I suppose...
hard drive:
"This package also supports the addition of an internal 2.5" IDE hard
drive, as in the A600." - no standard HD - no standard HD size...
case style:
"The A1200 is packaged in the new style case, but will support the addition
of a numeric keypad, as in the A500+" - a grown-up A600.
floppies:
880K floppies, sorry...
--
=============================================================================
Tommy Petersson to...@enea.se Enea Data AB, Sweden
=============================================================================
K.T. Wieringa
>The following is a copy of information I received from Commodore NZ
>regarding the Amiga 1200.
>The A1200 is much more powerful than the A500 or A600. It is the first
>keyboard integrated machine with the AA chip set and a 32 bit processor.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sorry. Wrong answer. I, for one, refuse to buy a machine with a fixed
keyboard. Going to have to pass on this one.
Where's the 800-1500 dollar, 32 bit, 1000/2000/3000 style case machine with
scsi potential that we've all been waiting for?
---
| K.T. Wieringa UUCP: k...@tcsi.appleton.mil.wi.us |
| Shawano, WI, USA Fido: K.T. Wieringa @ 1:238/105.3 |
Charles E Rick Taylor IV
>Mark....@bbs.actrix.gen.nz writes:
>>The following is a copy of information I received from Commodore NZ
>>regarding the Amiga 1200.
>>The A1200 is much more powerful than the A500 or A600. It is the first
>>keyboard integrated machine with the AA chip set and a 32 bit processor.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Sorry. Wrong answer. I, for one, refuse to buy a machine with a fixed
>keyboard. Going to have to pass on this one.
What's the big deal about a detatchable keyboard anyway? (or is it that I'm
used to a huge desk? :) )
--
+ Rick __ + EMAIL:cha...@hubcap.clemson.edu + //\ + /|\ It's +
| /aylor | IRC : Tomalek / The Romulan | \X/--\miga 500 | J rainy |
+-------------+----------------------------------+----------------+----------+
+ "Every Girl Already Has A Boyfriend" --- Murphy's Law Of Dating... +
Brian Gragg
|> wand...@tcsi.appleton.mil.wi.us (K.T. Wieringa) writes:
|>
|> >Mark....@bbs.actrix.gen.nz writes:
|>
|> >>The following is a copy of information I received from Commodore NZ
|> >>regarding the Amiga 1200.
|> >>The A1200 is much more powerful than the A500 or A600. It is the first
|> >>keyboard integrated machine with the AA chip set and a 32 bit processor.
|> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|>
|> >Sorry. Wrong answer. I, for one, refuse to buy a machine with a fixed
|> >keyboard. Going to have to pass on this one.
|>
|> What's the big deal about a detatchable keyboard anyway? (or is it that I'm
|> used to a huge desk? :) )
|> --
Well, my 2 and 3 year old daughters use my amiga and I know the hard disk would
not stand the abuse the keyboard would get. (The keyboard doesn't sit still
often) ...(my turn..no my turn..no my turn)...
Also, I keep the keyboard on a pull out shelf. My old A500 did fine, but once
again, I worried about the hard disk.
Brian.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Gragg bri...@sdd.hp.com hp-sdd!briang uunet!ucsd!hp-sdd!briang
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven Hurdle
M> The A1200 retains the PCMCIA card port for memory and I/O expansion,
YAH!!!! They kept the PCMCIA smart-card slot! Good for them. I was very
upset to see it lost on the A4000. For some reason Commodore is looking at
PCMCIA as only a method of RAM expansion and interfacing hardware add-ons
for the A600. Pathetic, really. Other parts of the computer industry are
getting VERY excited about the prospects of PCMCIA and are VERY enthused,
so it's certainly to the Amiga's advantage to be well-established here with
this industry standard. I just hope that Commodore redesignes the PCMCIA
slot on the CDTV to be industry-standard (the CDTV was shipped before the
standard was finalised). Hopefully some sort of adapter for existing CDTV
owners can be worked out, but obviously if we have to get a bit of a bloody
nose here then that's what will have to happen. CDTV would be that much
more of a hot product with proper PCMCIA. Since many laptops and (more
importantly) MIDI-keyboards are starting to use it, the combo of PCMCIA and
MIDI ports all coming standard on the CDTV is a powerful selling point.
M> This document is quite interesting, it does not address what hard
M> drive
M> size will be standard, nor if the HD floppies are used. Its also
M> pretty
M> hard to say whether the case is an A500 or A600 style. Oh well, thats
M> the
M> way it goes I suppose...
It refers to the case as in the "new style" which presumably means the
A600-style, backed up by the PCMCIA port being there and the LACK of an
inbuilt numeric keypad. Silly, personally. I hate inbuilt keyboards in
general. How much can it possibly really save off the cost of a machine to
give it an inbuilt keyboard? I can't image it's really that much. I'd pay
$50 extra, maybe even a bit more, to get a detached keyboard.
-- Via DLG Pro v0.992
George Robbins
> Presuming that the post I'm replying to is true.....
>
> A600-style, backed up by the PCMCIA port being there and the LACK of an
> inbuilt numeric keypad. Silly, personally. I hate inbuilt keyboards in
> general. How much can it possibly really save off the cost of a machine to
> give it an inbuilt keyboard? I can't image it's really that much. I'd pay
> $50 extra, maybe even a bit more, to get a detached keyboard.
I'm not real fan of the "console" design, but the fact that we've sold
maybe 15 MILLION units in this form factor, including VIC-20, C64, A500
and A600 indicates that there is reasonable customer acceptance, as a
personal/home computer.
I've always wondered how a little "micro cube" (pre NeXT please) with a
detached keyboard would sell, but a the lower end of the product line,
your "$50" is not trivial either in manufacturing costs or the effect of
retail price on sales volume.
--
George Robbins - now working for, work: to be avoided at all costs...
but no way officially representing: uucp: {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
Commodore, Engineering Department domain: g...@cbmvax.commodore.com
Jeff Easton
>
>I'm not real fan of the "console" design, but the fact that we've sold
>maybe 15 MILLION units in this form factor, including VIC-20, C64, A500
>and A600 indicates that there is reasonable customer acceptance, as a
>personal/home computer.
>
>I've always wondered how a little "micro cube" (pre NeXT please) with a
>detached keyboard would sell, but a the lower end of the product line,
>your "$50" is not trivial either in manufacturing costs or the effect of
>retail price on sales volume.
Give me a call some time. We'll discuss sales of my Z-LS/20... :-)
(14"x15"x2.75" 2 slot ISA box)
>George Robbins - now working for, work: to be avoided at all costs...
--
___ ___ Jeff Easton eas...@zds-oem.zds.com
(__ (__ Zenith Data Systems j.ea...@mi04.zds.com
___) ___) Saint Joseph, Mich. eas...@andrews.edu
Monte Carlo Z-LS/20 - Choice of a quiet generation
K.T. Wieringa
>wand...@tcsi.appleton.mil.wi.us (K.T. Wieringa) writes:
>> I, for one, refuse to buy a machine with a fixed keyboard.
>
>What's the big deal about a detatchable keyboard anyway? (or is it that I'm
>used to a huge desk? :) )
My desktop is sufficiently large (28"x78"). My lap isn't (12"x14").
The mouse and keyboard are user interfaces. They should be flexible
and mobile enough to fit any user's style.
UUCP: wand...@tcsi.appleton.mil.wi.us
Markus Juhani Aalto
In article <Steven_Hu...@amusers.UUCP> Steven...@amusers.UUCP (Steven Hurdle) writes:
> Presuming that the post I'm replying to is true.....
>
> It refers to the case as in the "new style" which presumably means the
> A600-style, backed up by the PCMCIA port being there and the LACK of an
> inbuilt numeric keypad. Silly, personally. I hate inbuilt keyboards in
> general. How much can it possibly really save off the cost of a machine to
> give it an inbuilt keyboard? I can't image it's really that much. I'd pay
> $50 extra, maybe even a bit more, to get a detached keyboard.
I'm not real fan of the "console" design, but the fact that we've sold
maybe 15 MILLION units in this form factor, including VIC-20, C64, A500
and A600 indicates that there is reasonable customer acceptance, as a
personal/home computer.
I've always wondered how a little "micro cube" (pre NeXT please) with a
detached keyboard would sell, but a the lower end of the product line,
your "$50" is not trivial either in manufacturing costs or the effect of
retail price on sales volume.
George Robbins - now working for, work: to be avoided at all costs...
Well maybe they buy it because there really wasn't much choise. Here in
Finland A2000 costed over $2000 bucks more that A500 about five years ago
when I bought my Amiga.
What I would like to see is AGA machine with
A3000 styled case and either 020 or 030 (030 with MMU would be best), but
for a low end machine 020 would propably be fine. Add 1 video slot
+ 2-3 other expansion slots. Maybe even SCSI interface in motherboard for
easy CD-ROM etc.. addition and you would have a real killer machine.
This is what I would like to buy next. Not A600 styled machines with very
limited expansion.
The "$50" bucks seems trivial to me if I get real a3000 styled case and
detachable keyboard. I would even pay $200-$300 more.
--
**************************************************************************
* Markus Aalto | Helsinki University of Technology *
* | *
* EMail: s37...@vipunen.hut.fi | Faculty of Electric Engineering *
* Fax: 358-0-8746991 (Sometimes) | *
* | Undergraduate in Computer Science *
**************************************************************************
Charles E Rick Taylor IV
>My desktop is sufficiently large (28"x78"). My lap isn't (12"x14").
>The mouse and keyboard are user interfaces. They should be flexible
>and mobile enough to fit any user's style.
The mouse is fine ... except it should have a middle button. The keyboard,
IMHO, would be fine if it came out like the 500's is. (Hey, I'm *used*
to my 500's keyboard and I type *worse* if I put a detatchable keyboard
in my lap!)
And if it drops the price by any significant amount ... BY ALL MEANS MAKE
AN INTEGRATED KEYBOARD!
I wonder how much costs would be increased by making an external keyboard
an option ... that way if you *want* the keyboard in your lap, you can have
it. (i.e. keep the integrated keyboard but have a connector for an external
one?)
George Robbins
> In article <36...@cbmvax.commodore.com> g...@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins) writes:
> >
> >I'm not real fan of the "console" design, but the fact that we've sold
> >maybe 15 MILLION units in this form factor, including VIC-20, C64, A500
> >and A600 indicates that there is reasonable customer acceptance, as a
> >personal/home computer.
> >
> >I've always wondered how a little "micro cube" (pre NeXT please) with a
> >detached keyboard would sell, but a the lower end of the product line,
> >your "$50" is not trivial either in manufacturing costs or the effect of
> >retail price on sales volume.
>
> Give me a call some time. We'll discuss sales of my Z-LS/20... :-)
> (14"x15"x2.75" 2 slot ISA box)
Hmmm... That sounds more like the dreaded "pizza box" profile. I was
thinking more along the lines of a 4x6x8 "cube", i.e. something no bigger
than a pair or 3.5" drives...
The problem with the "2-slot" systems is you have most of the pain and cost
of an N-slot sytem, sans the heavy-duty power supply, *and* have to stick all
kinds of "optional" stuff on the main board to make it look like two slots are
really enough.
We've looked at this approach a number of times and they always seem to get
pregnant and acquire a few more slots, the utility of the slots out-weighing
the cost difference and pretty profile.
A few years back, there was a company selling AT's or something around that
level as multi-user business systems, using a relatively small "cube" profile.
They looked pretty at COMDEX, but I suspect the company has since vanished
without a trace.
--
George Robbins - now working for, work: to be avoided at all costs...
George Robbins
> Well maybe they buy it because there really wasn't much choise. Here in
> Finland A2000 costed over $2000 bucks more that A500 about five years ago
> when I bought my Amiga.
>
> What I would like to see is AGA machine with
> A3000 styled case and either 020 or 030 (030 with MMU would be best), but
> for a low end machine 020 would propably be fine. Add 1 video slot
> + 2-3 other expansion slots. Maybe even SCSI interface in motherboard for
> easy CD-ROM etc.. addition and you would have a real killer machine.
>
> This is what I would like to buy next. Not A600 styled machines with very
> limited expansion.
>
> The "$50" bucks seems trivial to me if I get real a3000 styled case and
> detachable keyboard. I would even pay $200-$300 more.
Well, you have to keep in mind that (hypothetical) systems in an A3000 styled
case are likely to be within a few hundred dollars of the price of an A3000,
not neccessarily a few hundered dollars more than an A500.
--
George Robbins - now working for, work: to be avoided at all costs...
Jochen Wiedmann
>The A1200 is a true 32 bit system, with 32 bit RAM, and ROM using the 14Mhz
>(2 x
>A500/A600) clock speed 32 bit 68E020 processor. This processor not runs at
>twice
>the speed of the A500/A600 but also has a 256 byte instruction cache.
What does that mean?
Jochen
--
Jochen Wiedmann E-Mail: wied...@mailserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de
Markus Juhani Aalto
In article <S37732V.92...@lk-hp-10.hut.fi> s37...@snakemail.hut.fi (Markus Juhani Aalto) writes:
> Well maybe they buy it because there really wasn't much choise. Here in
> Finland A2000 costed over $2000 bucks more that A500 about five years ago
> when I bought my Amiga.
>
> What I would like to see is AGA machine with
> A3000 styled case and either 020 or 030 (030 with MMU would be best), but
> for a low end machine 020 would propably be fine. Add 1 video slot
> + 2-3 other expansion slots. Maybe even SCSI interface in motherboard for
> easy CD-ROM etc.. addition and you would have a real killer machine.
>
> This is what I would like to buy next. Not A600 styled machines with very
> limited expansion.
>
> The "$50" bucks seems trivial to me if I get real a3000 styled case and
> detachable keyboard. I would even pay $200-$300 more.
Well, you have to keep in mind that (hypothetical) systems in an A3000 styled
case are likely to be within a few hundred dollars of the price of an A3000,
not neccessarily a few hundered dollars more than an A500.
George Robbins - now working for, work: to be avoided at all costs...
but no way officially representing: uucp: {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
Commodore, Engineering Department domain: g...@cbmvax.commodore.com
Well I suspect that they are. But I meant that I would be glad to pay
1 to 3 hundred dollars more from a system that comes in a a3000 styled
box. So for example this hypothetical a1200 system would be true, and
it would come in a3000 styled box with similar similar expansion
capabilities compared to a600 styled a1200. I would buy a3000 styled
version even if it costed more. This a600 styled case just isn't
something that I want.
That above machine configuration I specified was my dream machine. I
never intended that it should be only few hundred dollars more expensive
than a500 or a600. It could fairly well be in a range of A3000's
current prices. Here in Finland about $2500 to $3000.
Hey maybe next time you bring two versions. One in A600 styled case
and one in A3000 styled case. :^)
C. Taylor Sutherland III
I just have to say . . .
Who gives a SH*T about what it LOOKS like?!?!?!
I couldn't care less, as long as it works fine!
--
We're not hitchhiking anymore. We're riding!
-the immor(t)al Ren & Stimpy
The Fly Boy <| E-MAIL: tay...@hubcap.clemson.edu |>
+--<| My life is a math question with one equation and 42 unknowns. |>--+
Jeff Easton
>In article <1992Oct24.0...@zds-oem.zds.com> eas...@zds-oem.zds.com (Jeff Easton) writes:
>> In article <36...@cbmvax.commodore.com> g...@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins) writes:
>> >I've always wondered how a little "micro cube" (pre NeXT please) with a
>> >detached keyboard would sell, but a the lower end of the product line,
>> >your "$50" is not trivial either in manufacturing costs or the effect of
>> >retail price on sales volume.
>>
>> Give me a call some time. We'll discuss sales of my Z-LS/20... :-)
>> (14"x15"x2.75" 2 slot ISA box)
>
>Hmmm... That sounds more like the dreaded "pizza box" profile. I was
>thinking more along the lines of a 4x6x8 "cube", i.e. something no bigger
>than a pair or 3.5" drives...
yum, yum. care for a slice? :-)
With the "brick" method you have to be pretty ASIC happy to fit every
thing on a pcb thats the same form factor as a 3.5" drive. Also your
power supply almost certainly winds up on the floor in one of those
infernal brick deals. You also have no hope for any type on "standard"
slot expansion, either Zorro or ISA.
>The problem with the "2-slot" systems is you have most of the pain and cost
>of an N-slot sytem, sans the heavy-duty power supply, *and* have to stick all
>kinds of "optional" stuff on the main board to make it look like two slots are
>really enough.
Somewhat true. Cost reductions over a 4 or 5 slot "standard" system are
minimal. You can take a few bucks out of the power supply (lower wattage)
and maybe economize on sheet metal. Thats about all you can milk out of it
and still have a slotted PC.
I wouldnt say that you have to stick all kinds of optional stuff on the
motherboard. We had VGA, serial, parallel, mouse, keyboard ports all
on the MB. The two slots came from the need for a network card (1 slot)
and the option of your choice (2nd slot). This system began life
as a diskless workstation btw.
>We've looked at this approach a number of times and they always seem to get
>pregnant and acquire a few more slots, the utility of the slots out-weighing
>the cost difference and pretty profile.
Unless your customer is screaming "pizza box!" and understands the
limited functionality this gives him. If you get the right mix of
stuff on the motherboard, two slots is more than adequate.
>A few years back, there was a company selling AT's or something around that
>level as multi-user business systems, using a relatively small "cube" profile.
>They looked pretty at COMDEX, but I suspect the company has since vanished
>without a trace.
Yeah, I remember them from a spring Comdex a couple of years ago. Didnt
they call it the Ergo Brick or some such?
>George Robbins - now working for, work: to be avoided at all costs...
--
Juergen Weinelt
>detached keyboard would sell, but a the lower end of the product line,
>your "$50" is not trivial either in manufacturing costs or the effect of
>retail price on sales volume.
But why don't you just add an external keyboard connector? That would
probably cost no more than $5 (yes, I'm just guessing), but it would
give your customers the _option_ of adding an external keyboard if they
really wanted one... That might make a "console type" computer much
more attractive.
-- Juergen
o _ Juergen Weinelt, Germany (ECG116)
| (_) \/\/ UUCP: swb.de!imart!hcast!jow
' CBMNET: j...@hcast.adsp.sub.org
George Robbins
> In article <36...@cbmvax.commodore.com> g...@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins) writes:
> >
> >I've always wondered how a little "micro cube" (pre NeXT please) with a
> >detached keyboard would sell, but a the lower end of the product line,
> >your "$50" is not trivial either in manufacturing costs or the effect of
> >retail price on sales volume.
>
> But why don't you just add an external keyboard connector? That would
> probably cost no more than $5 (yes, I'm just guessing), but it would
> give your customers the _option_ of adding an external keyboard if they
> really wanted one... That might make a "console type" computer much
> more attractive.
Well, the general notion would be that such a small percentage of users
would really use the detached keyboard that it would simply be money
wasted. This might or might not be true, but the pain threshold for
"extra cost" on something like an A500/A600 is much less than $1, so
something like an additional connector would have to be expected to
"add value" to a fair percentage of the customers.
Also, finding space for another connector on the A500/A600 products
without enlarging the PCB ($$$) or making significant modifications to
the multiple sets of plastic molds ($$$) makes adding a connector as
an afterthought unlikely.
Dr Peter Kittel Germany
>A3000 styled case and either 020 or 030 (030 with MMU would be best), but
>for a low end machine 020 would propably be fine. Add 1 video slot
>+ 2-3 other expansion slots. Maybe even SCSI interface in motherboard for
>easy CD-ROM etc.. addition and you would have a real killer machine.
>The "$50" bucks seems trivial to me if I get real a3000 styled case and
>detachable keyboard. I would even pay $200-$300 more.
Hey, stop dreaming! You can't get >A3000 features (only replacing the
processor doesn't give you much) for $300 more than such a console
machine! Never! (Uh, well, perhaps in 5 years...)
--
Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions...
Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
Dave Williams
>
>What I would like to see is AGA machine with
>A3000 styled case and either 020 or 030 (030 with MMU would be best), but
>for a low end machine 020 would propably be fine. Add 1 video slot
>+ 2-3 other expansion slots. Maybe even SCSI interface in motherboard for
>easy CD-ROM etc.. addition and you would have a real killer machine.
You guys have missed the obvious - How about a A1000-style case!
Not just like the original 1000, but something like it - Picture a
case with a keyboard garage, and room for two internal cards. I took
a close look at a Northgate "slimline" machine a few days back, and it
looks doable. You could pack space for a couple of internal drives in
there, and give us the option for external drives.
I'd ditch the PC slot connectors on a machine of this class, since
there's no way you'd have room for any serious bridgeboard applications.
I, personally, am not a fan of any of the newer case designs after the
A1000. The A2000 was just butt-ugly, the A500 takes up way too much desk
space, especially if you start adding stuff on the side (not to mention
the keyboard is part of the unit - bleah.), and the A3000 case is too
cramped for what that machine is trying to do.
The problem with this approach is the fact that the A1000 case is made
of plastic, which means you have to enclose the system board in an RF shield
to keep the FCC (and your neighbor's TV) happy. The A2000, A3000, and so
on are made of metal, and the case acts like the RF shield. If you want
expansion slots in the machine, this is the only way to go, since you can't
require the user to remove and replace an RF shield every time they have to
do something with one of the cards. Unfortunately, metal cases costs more.
So, what do I propose? Something like the Northgate slimline cases.
these machines have an expansion tree like the A3000. You get space for
three cards, with a case not much higher than the original A1000. Drive
expansion space is limited to (I think) one 5.25" HH, and one 3.5" HH.
We could get along with two 3.5 HH spaces, and an internal space for a
harddrive.
With an '030 and an AGA chipset, this would make a great replacement
machine for us old A1000 holdouts. :-)
>The "$50" bucks seems trivial to me if I get real a3000 styled case and
>detachable keyboard. I would even pay $200-$300 more.
I would, too. I don't think that the machine case I've outlined above
would sell for a very competitive price, since it's kinda cramped and
presents some real engineering problems. Oh well, one can wish, can't
one?
Dave Williams | I'm lucky if I can
dwil...@jabba.ess.harris.com | even spell opinion,
"Huh? What? Could you repeat the question?" | much less have them.
--
Dave Williams | I'm lucky if I can
dwil...@jabba.ess.harris.com | even spell opinion,
"Huh? What? Could you repeat the question?" | much less have them.
Martin P. Ibert
> What I would like to see is AGA machine with
> A3000 styled case and either 020 or 030 (030 with MMU would be best), but
> for a low end machine 020 would propably be fine. Add 1 video slot
> + 2-3 other expansion slots. Maybe even SCSI interface in motherboard for
> easy CD-ROM etc.. addition and you would have a real killer machine.
Maybe you should trade in your A3000-style case for a A3000T style case. Now
THAT's nice. Sufficiently stylish, quite a number of drive bays, a hefty
power supply, and no space requirement on the desktop (mine is crowded with
four CRTs, four keyboards and one desktop-case machine -> I'm going to through
that desktop machine out so that I can pile up some paperwork on my desk.
To my mind, SCSI is an absolute must. IDE is just plain horrible, a kluge that
doesn't deserve to live.
> The "$50" bucks seems trivial to me if I get real a3000 styled case and
> detachable keyboard. I would even pay $200-$300 more.
... but I'd expect a tower design for that kind of $$$.
--
___*___ Martin P. Ibert - Westendallee 100 d, D-1000 Berlin 19 - +4930-3056541
======= E-mail to martini@{heaven7.{in-berlin.de|sub.org}|cloud9.in-berlin.de}
||| ||| ----------------------------------------------------------------------
||| ||| ------ Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die ------
Chris Elliott
You guys have missed the obvious - How about a A1000-style case!
Not just like the original 1000, but something like it - Picture a
case with a keyboard garage, and room for two internal cards. I took
[stuff deleted]
I, personally, am not a fan of any of the newer case designs after the
A1000. The A2000 was just butt-ugly, the A500 takes up way too much desk
space, especially if you start adding stuff on the side (not to mention
the keyboard is part of the unit - bleah.), and the A3000 case is too
cramped for what that machine is trying to do.
I, with my A500, really miss an external keyboard and on my father's A2000 the
keyboard garage. I am dissapointed in comodore for dropping this design
feature.
[stuff deleted]
expansion slots in the machine, this is the only way to go, since you can't
require the user to remove and replace an RF shield every time they have to
do something with one of the cards. Unfortunately, metal cases costs more.
Why can't the inside of the plastic case be coated with enough metal to act as
RF shielding (spray-on or leaf, which ever has the better efficiency/cost
rating)? (I am ignorant in this area of hardware engineering so please don't
flame me if this is a stupid idea...)
With an '030 and an AGA chipset, this would make a great replacement
machine for us old A1000 holdouts. :-)
Nice upgrade for those of us with A500's too! I already have something planned
to fill one slot (a SCSI board for my HardDrive....) ;-)
What is the concencus on this by the local Commodore Gurus? Good idea, or
just a pipedream?
-WatchDog
Markus Juhani Aalto
In article <S37732V.92...@lk-hp-10.hut.fi> s37...@snakemail.hut.fi (Markus Juhani Aalto) writes:
>
>What I would like to see is AGA machine with
>A3000 styled case and either 020 or 030 (030 with MMU would be best), but
>for a low end machine 020 would propably be fine. Add 1 video slot
>+ 2-3 other expansion slots. Maybe even SCSI interface in motherboard for
>easy CD-ROM etc.. addition and you would have a real killer machine.
Hmm, sounds like a machine that would cost even more than a 3000!
Yes I know that. This was just an example of MY dream machine. Something I would like
to get. Not something sold for under $2000 (Atleast here in Finland anyway).
>The "$50" bucks seems trivial to me if I get real a3000 styled case and
>detachable keyboard. I would even pay $200-$300 more.
Hey, stop dreaming! You can't get >A3000 features (only replacing the
processor doesn't give you much) for $300 more than such a console
machine! Never! (Uh, well, perhaps in 5 years...)
Argh. Should have made my post little more clearer. :^) Here I ment that I would pay
about 200$ more from a system similar to the rumoured A1200 but with better case
design. Sorry about the confusion.
Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions...
Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
Magnus Byne
>In article <36...@cbmvax.commodore.com> g...@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins) writes:
> I'm not real fan of the "console" design, but the fact that we've sold
> maybe 15 MILLION units in this form factor, including VIC-20, C64, A500
> and A600 indicates that there is reasonable customer acceptance, as a
> personal/home computer.
> I've always wondered how a little "micro cube" (pre NeXT please) with a
> detached keyboard would sell, but a the lower end of the product line,
> your "$50" is not trivial either in manufacturing costs or the effect of
> retail price on sales volume.
These 'console' machines sold as there was little option. I think many people
would be prepared to pay an extra $50 just to have a detached keyboard,
For a1200 it would also be a good idea to have a couple of drive bays, for
3.5 ide drives and then the $50 would be well worth it.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Magnus Byne, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland. Email: jhb...@unix1.tcd.ie |
| I used to be indecisive, now I`m not so sure. |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Mancini
Yo Mamma. My deseart camo scheme A2000 looks positivly leathal.
Pizza Boxes are for twits. Perhaps you like to step outside and
'discuss' your adversion to my beautiful computers looks?
--Pete
"There there my 2500/30, I'll kick his ass and it'll be all right, you
see"
:-)
Scott D Nolan
|> I'm not real fan of the "console" design, but the fact that we've sold
|> maybe 15 MILLION units in this form factor, including VIC-20, C64, A500
|> and A600 indicates that there is reasonable customer acceptance, as a
|> personal/home computer.
Gee guys, I would have thought the reason why to be painfully obvious.
Price, and availability.
Was there ever a VIC-20, or C64 released that had a separate
keyboard? If not, then don't count them in this question.
The 128D was pretty nice compared to the 128, but it did not come
out until the end of the 64/128 market span, so don't count sales
of them for much either.
The reason so many A500s have sold over A2000s is only price,
when the effective difference between case styles is $1000 WHO
is going to spend it unless they have money to burn, or NEED
a periphial that will not fit in a 500. What insane reason is
there for the extra $1000 in price?
Same issue and question applies to the A3000. Is there really a
$1500 increase in cost to make a 3000T ? Come on guys, great
machines, but the cases should not be priced so differently.
Scott Nolan
Consistancy is the hobgoblin of small minds.
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Chris Hooper
> Was there ever a VIC-20, or C64 released that had a separate
> keyboard?
From memory, the only other Commodore 8-bit with detached keyboard was
the SX-64. The "executive" transportable. As I remember, the machine
never really sold enough to warrant extended production.
> The reason so many A500s have sold over A2000s is only price,
> when the effective difference between case styles is $1000 WHO
> is going to spend it unless they have money to burn, or NEED
> a periphial that will not fit in a 500. What insane reason is
> there for the extra $1000 in price?
Is this an argument, statement, or question? Of coure price is
a factor in the decision of what to purchase. If ALL computers
cost the same, would you choose the C-64 or the Amiga?
Price is not the only factor, however. Consider if all were the
same price. Would you buy the Amiga or opt for an IBM-3090?
IBM:
1. Can (today, anyway) process data faster than the Amiga
2. Can handle more simultaneous online users
3. Is recognized as a "professional" computer
Amiga:
1. Can fit in a dorm room
2. Has a "sexier" look
3. Runs on conventional current in non-airconditioned space
I choose the Amiga. How about you? Price is not the only factor.
As for the $1000 difference in price:
1. It's more like $850
2. It *IS* going to cost more to make a bigger machine (ie: slots,
drive bays, internal expansion)
3. You have confused the cost of producing said hardware to the
end consumer cost. You're barking up the wrong tree.
Write a letter to Commodore marketing.
> Same issue and question applies to the A3000. Is there really a
> $1500 increase in cost to make a 3000T ?
You have to pay off research and development of the hardware somehow.
New computing hardware always costs more when it is introduced. I think
it has to do with the fact it gets cheaper as it gets older. ;)
- Chris Hooper CS Senior at Michigan Technological University fax=2787
c...@mtu.edu Programmer, MTU Telecom Group (906) 487- voice=2800
Martin P. Ibert
that is), things like processor/speed (obviously), memory/hard disk size
being equal. And I don't regret it. There it sits, beside my knee, tape drive
and dual hard disk at the ready, running Unix, with just four managable
cables (mouse, keyboard, monitor data/power) dangling off my already crowded
desk. I have a A2232 multi-serial, so a LOT of cables come from the machine
UNDER the desk.
Edward Swatschek
>
>+ Scott Nolan asks:
>+ Was there ever a VIC-20, or C64 released that had a separate keyboard?
>
> From memory, the only other Commodore 8-bit with detached keyboard was
> the SX-64. The "executive" transportable. As I remember, the machine
> never really sold enough to warrant extended production.
Actually, you could consider the VIC-20 and C64 to be (rather fat)
detached keyboards on their own (though adding too many cables to the back
ruins the effect). :)
--
Edjs _
------ _ // CI$ : 76427,662
Edward_S...@mindlink.bc.ca \X/ GEnie: E.SWATSCHEK
Trin Yuthasastrackosol
>
>I just have to say . . .
>
>Who gives a SH*T about what it LOOKS like?!?!?!
>I couldn't care less, as long as it works fine!
HEAR! HEAR! This discussion is just so much nitpicking and such! I, for one,
am GLAD that Commodore is coming out with a low-end AGA machine that I can
afford!
George Robbins
> In article <BwurG...@jabba.ess.harris.com> dwil...@jabba.ess.harris.com (Dave Williams) writes:
>
> You guys have missed the obvious - How about a A1000-style case!
> Not just like the original 1000, but something like it - Picture a
> case with a keyboard garage, and room for two internal cards. I took
> [stuff deleted]
> I, personally, am not a fan of any of the newer case designs after the
> A1000. The A2000 was just butt-ugly, the A500 takes up way too much desk
> space, especially if you start adding stuff on the side (not to mention
> the keyboard is part of the unit - bleah.), and the A3000 case is too
> cramped for what that machine is trying to do.
Which is why the A600 and A1200 have little things like more memory and a
hard drive internal and support little petite PCMCIA cards for external
plug-in. This leaves the real problem all the cables coming out the back,
which we can't do much about without losing compatibility with standard
perhipherals.
> I, with my A500, really miss an external keyboard and on my father's A2000 the
> keyboard garage. I am dissapointed in comodore for dropping this design
> feature.
It was kind of dead from day one, and I'm not certain that even the original
Amiga crowd were going to include it in their Ranger/"super A1000" concept
that they had sketched out, but which lost out to the A2000 design concept.
The fundamental problem is that there is *always* pressure for a smaller
more compact system and only occasionally interest in smaller keyboards.
The european market, especially the Germans are facinated by lots of keys.
Notice how even Apple has had to accomodate at least a full ASCII keyboard
with extended numeric keypad after pushing baby keyboards and mice.
> expansion slots in the machine, this is the only way to go, since you can't
> require the user to remove and replace an RF shield every time they have to
> do something with one of the cards. Unfortunately, metal cases costs more.
>
> Why can't the inside of the plastic case be coated with enough metal to act as
> RF shielding (spray-on or leaf, which ever has the better efficiency/cost
> rating)? (I am ignorant in this area of hardware engineering so please don't
> flame me if this is a stupid idea...)
These techniques are expensive and only adopted when either all other
options fail or as part of a comprehensive design aimed at low overall
cost of manufacturing in a particular environment - say Robotic US plant.
For our non-metal box products and manufacturing environment, the design
using PCB+tinplate shield+platic makes for the most affordable systems.
--
George Robbins - now working for, work: to be avoided at all costs...
George Robbins
> George Robbins writes:
> |> I'm not real fan of the "console" design, but the fact that we've sold
> |> maybe 15 MILLION units in this form factor, including VIC-20, C64, A500
> |> and A600 indicates that there is reasonable customer acceptance, as a
> |> personal/home computer.
>
> Gee guys, I would have thought the reason why to be painfully obvious.
>
> Price, and availability.
>
> Was there ever a VIC-20, or C64 released that had a separate
> keyboard? If not, then don't count them in this question.
Alternate packaging for the C64 included an educational model
packaged in a "PET" case (integrated monitor and keyboard)
and the SX-64, a "portable" version with a detachable keyboard
and built-in 5" color monitor.
The final sales channel for the SX-64 was the COMB liquidators,
so I don't know that you'd call this a successful product. Of
course the real problem wasn't the keyboard, but that the thing
was just too expensive for the C64 market. The interior was
like an old stereo, with several circuit boards wired together,
complex metal casework and a monitor too small to be useful but
still expensive.
> The 128D was pretty nice compared to the 128, but it did not come
> out until the end of the 64/128 market span, so don't count sales
> of them for much either.
The 128D was done by our German engineering group, becuase they
thought that a C128 packaged with an integral floppy drive and
a detachable keyboard would appeal to the C128 as a small business
computer marketplace. They also that an integrated drive package
would give a lower system price than the traditional C64/C128
"cheap computer/expensive drive" combination in the era when amost
every customer was finally buying both a CPU and a floppy drive.
I guess it met their expectations, but didn't do anything really
significant to the notion of whehter or not the integrated keyboard
was approriate for low-end systems.
> The reason so many A500s have sold over A2000s is only price,
> when the effective difference between case styles is $1000 WHO
> is going to spend it unless they have money to burn, or NEED
> a periphial that will not fit in a 500. What insane reason is
> there for the extra $1000 in price?
Volume begets price. Price begets volume. The A500 owner is
not paying for anything that he is not using. The A2000/A3000
owner is paying for the casework, power, components and cooling
to allow those expansion cards. Since A2000/A3000 volumes are
much lower than A600/A500 volumes, enconomies of scale are less.
> Same issue and question applies to the A3000. Is there really a
> $1500 increase in cost to make a 3000T ? Come on guys, great
> machines, but the cases should not be priced so differently.
Bigger case, bigger power supply, more slots and connectors,
different configurations, much lower volume than the nice petite
A3000...
> Scott Nolan
>
> Consistancy is the hobgoblin of small minds.
Economics is often the only consistancy of business behavior.
Dana B Bourgeois
Just got a used A2000 to replace my A1000. Nice to have internal slots
instead of SOTS. More reliable. Higher noise is a drawback. And the
garage is a cool solution to the combo use of computer and pen/paper
on a desk top.
I have to say I do like the A2000. I don't understand the comments about
ugly. It is bigger. And It could use some new internal sheet metal to
better use the internal space for drives (modern drives are all 3.5" and
1.25" or less in size - 'cept maybe for the cutting edge stuff like
floptical and CD). So I'm pretty happy with it.
Pizza box cases are kinda neat. My SPARC 2 at work is a sexy looking
machine. Until I remember that even a plain vanilla I/O card in SBus
is about $800. On a $20K machine OK but for my $800 home computer, I
want to keep cards in the $200-500 range. And even on a SPARC 2, I
ran out of SBus slots so guess what? Another piaaz box to expand the
SBus: $2500 for 6 more slots and now the CPU/expansion is (blare of
trumpets) about the same size as an A2000. AND the whole thing has
*3* (three!) fans to keep it cool. Much louder than an A2000!!
So the point I am sneaking up on is that space design is a trade-off
between marketing and engineering with cost on one axis and availability
on another...and probably more things on a few more axis' too. The
ultimate being a 6 foot tall 19" rack!
My dream machine would be small. Mini-tower size. It would include a
motherboard that had 3 or more slots. SCSI, ethernet, 2 serial and
2 parallel ports would be on board. Inside the case there would be
room for 4 3.5" drives, 1 or these spaces expandable for a 5.25" half-height
device. Three of these drive spaces would have openings available for
removable media drives. For those (like me) who dont care to listen to
fans and have enough money for several drives, there would be an
expansion box: The box would be designed to hold 4 removable media drives
which means it would have both floppy and SCSI connectors in the back.
It would include 4 LEDs to monitor drives in the main unit and connectors
for the mouse and keyboard. This unit and the monitor would go on the desk-
top while the main unit would go underneath. Including cables, this
expansion unit should sell for about $150. And *it* should be pretty.
Dana Bourgeois @ cup.portal.com
Jim Pritchett
> Well, my 2 and 3 year old daughters use my amiga and I know the hard disk would
> not stand the abuse the keyboard would get. (The keyboard doesn't sit still
> often) ...(my turn..no my turn..no my turn)...
Well, you might try bolting the computer to the desk.
Jim Pritchett
UUCP: rwsys.lonestar.org!caleb!jdp
or utacfd.uta.edu!rwsys!caleb!jdp
Jim Pritchett
> > - Bridge Cards
>
> Here it is again.
Could we apply "truth in advertising" and call the bridgeboards "Decellerator
Cards"?
8^)
Jay Brown
w/detachable keyboard.
SHogun
Matthew Storch
>Volume begets price. Price begets volume. The A500 owner is
>not paying for anything that he is not using. The A2000/A3000
>owner is paying for the casework, power, components and cooling
>to allow those expansion cards. Since A2000/A3000 volumes are
>much lower than A600/A500 volumes, enconomies of scale are less.
>> Same issue and question applies to the A3000. Is there really a
>> $1500 increase in cost to make a 3000T ? Come on guys, great
>> machines, but the cases should not be priced so differently.
>Bigger case, bigger power supply, more slots and connectors,
>different configurations, much lower volume than the nice petite
>A3000...
I usually stay out of such discussions, but this point I can't
stand to ignore.
I agree with Scott. The case issue is one of the reasons why I am
migrating from Amiga to PC clones. Having a case with a reasonable
number of drive bays (at least 2 5.25" half height and 2 3.5" bays
with the fronts exposed) is a must for me. It REALLY frustrates me to
look in Computer Shopper and see any number of places selling IBM
clone tower cases for $100 INCLUDING 250W power supplies. Damn it,
I should be able to move my Amiga motherboard to one of those $100
tower cases!
So, ok, George, let's say that it really does cost Commodore a small
fortune to make a bigger case, because of the difference in sales
volume. Clearly we have PC clone guys who can make a heavy-duty tower
case (I have one, and it is NOT cheesy in any way), I can buy them
quantity 1 retail for $100, and they make a PROFIT. That means that
all the overhead costs, the extra cost for a metal case, the cost for
the hefty power supply, all distributor/retailer markups are INCLUDED
in the $100 price. The same outfits sell A2000-sized desktop cases
for $60. That's a difference of $40, maybe $50. Now why won't
Commodore do something like MAKE A DEAL with one of the case
manufacturing companies, and put Amiga motherboards in those cases???
Remember, the RETAIL price difference of the types of cases (A2000
desktop vs. tower) is < $50. The price difference in adding slots to
the motherboard is another matter, but IT SHOULD BE AN ORTHOGONAL
ISSUE.
Go ahead and make a massively cost-reduced A600-style motherboard with
it's one slot and harddrive interface (IDE, is it?). JUST PLEASE make it
a standard form factor so it can be put in a real case. The RETAIL price
difference from the low-end keyboard machine should be no more than $100;
maybe $75 for the case upgrade and $25 for miscellaneous costs like the
cost of giving the keyboard it's own case, the extra connector, etc. Don't
tell me that the seperate keyboard is a major expense, whole PC keyboards
cost $30 retail. And Commodore could SAVE and lot of engineering, costs, and
headache by having a single type of external keyboard plug compatible with
the entire Amiga line.
Anyone want to argue about physical engineering costs? If you use a
STANDARD case form factor then you don't have to do all the fancy case
redesign Commodore does EVERY time they release a machine with yet another
different case.
Don't tell me about how many C64's and A500's were sold in their micro
cases. First, there is nothing wrong with having such a machine at
the very low end, AS LONG AS other alternative cases are offered for
NOT TOO MUCH more, as outlined above. By far the greatest number of
computers sold have been IBM clone types, despite the fact that they
have all kinds of horrible problems (like MSDOS, a painful-configure
architecture, etc.) compared to the Amiga. But they almost all have
detachable keyboards, real cases, and in general interchangeable
parts. And if given a choice for a modest price increase, Commodore
would find that most people would pay $100 more for a real case.
Here's something for you to think about. With all the millions of PC
clones sold, why hasn't some PC clone company been "bright" enough to
make a semi-expandable PC in a cost reduced keyboard case, and blown the
rest of the clone makers out of the low-end market? Because
no one would be stupid enough to buy it since full sized machines are
not that expensive to start with. For all I know, maybe some companies
have tried this "ingenious" trick and have gone out of business with it,
but the fact that I never enen heard of such a company tells the whole story.
Why keep fighting the PC standards on topics where there is nothing
wrong with the standards, like cases. I LOUDLY APPLAUD the decision
to go with IBM standard connectors for the serial and parallel, and
lately, video ports. The convenience of buying a printer, modem, etc. and
just getting an IBM standard cable instead of some special cable for $25
extra cannot be overstated. Commodore desperately needs to understand that a
large part of the appeal of IBM clones is the advantage of
interchangeable parts and the serious economies of scale in the clone
world. Commodore should take advantage of whatever clone parts they
can (maybe even keyboards, though I understand that the electronics
are completely different), without compromising on what makes an Amiga
an Amiga. How about it, George and the rest of Commodore engineering?
What do you say?
As far as the A1200 is concerned, I agree with the various people who
said that it is a good machine. Except that it should have, and
easily could have, been brought out about 4 years ago (possibly
without some of the AGA features, but also WITH some of them). I LOVE
the Amiga architecture and operating system, but I think the A1200 is
too little too late at the low end; the IBM clones have an
overwhelming share of the market, and as Jay Miner has said, should
have been taken on more strongly years ago, before it was too late.
PC clones now are very fast, very cheap, have reasonable though not
great video, have SoundBlasters which give them standardized, good
sound for < $100, and EVERYONE makes software for them. As soon as a
real operating system becomes standard on PCs (OS/2 2.0 or Windows NT)
-- I KNOW this will take a few more YEARS -- but eventually it WILL
happen, and there will be very little advantage in an Amiga, except
for the video niche market, which I and most people could care less
about. With an Amiga I must fight the standards on both
interchangeable parts (I know, not in all cases; SCSI is a great
standard on the Amiga), and on software. I'm tired of fighting the
industry. Commodore, you're losing customers like me. I am keeping
my A2000 for now but will most likely never buy another Commodore machine.
But I want to. Come on Commodore, give me a good reason. Blow the clones
out of the water, by playing their own game when it doesn't matter and
staying ahead on the hardware were it does matter.
Matt Storch (sto...@cs.uiuc.edu)
Greg Hilton
>Commodore desperately needs to understand that a
>large part of the appeal of IBM clones is the advantage of
>interchangeable parts and the serious economies of scale in the clone
>world. Commodore should take advantage of whatever clone parts they
>can (maybe even keyboards, though I understand that the electronics
>are completely different), without compromising on what makes an Amiga
>an Amiga. How about it, George and the rest of Commodore engineering?
>What do you say?
Hear, hear, Exactly the reason I'm seriously looking at going the PC
route. There is less pain in me moving my SIMMS and SCSI drive from my
500 to a PC, then from my 500 to a 1200. I really like my Ami, but
Commodore are really stretching customer loyalty.
Thomas &
:
: The fundamental problem is that there is *always* pressure for a smaller
: more compact system and only occasionally interest in smaller keyboards.
: The european market, especially the Germans are facinated by lots of keys.
Not all Germans! I really liked the small A1000 (or NCD's X-Terminal)
keyboard. Now what about a Brick-Amiga in a nice design case with the
ability to add a second brick for expansion cards (or something you can
put the Monitor onto)? (and a small keyboard !!)
Good design sells well in Europe (especially France,Italy and Germany)!
: George Robbins - now working for, work: to be avoided at all costs...
thomas
==============================================================================
fet...@dfki.uni-sb.de fet...@cs.uni-sb.de
History is an Angel being blown backwards into the Future.
Martin Black
As discussed earlier you can't have amiga and mac simms work on a ibm period.
But you can bring both over to you next amiga. You will need to a a4000 for
the cards for a 16bit simms. But on the a1200 there will be a scsi/ram card
out lickety split, that is what that knockout panel on it is for.
And do you really want 16bit ram slowing you down. Hell when
you bought you first amiga, you couldn't simply plug in simms into it. And
You didn't have a scsi controller either. And if it is true what they say
it is going to be about $400. And we aren't talking about a piece of crapt
ibm here. And on most ibm's they don't even use scsi drives, so that is
useless to.
Martin
Erik Funkenbusch
>In article <1c9ig9...@hpsdlss3.sdd.hp.com>, Brian Gragg writes:
>
>> Well, my 2 and 3 year old daughters use my amiga and I know the hard disk would
>> not stand the abuse the keyboard would get. (The keyboard doesn't sit still
>> often) ...(my turn..no my turn..no my turn)...
>
Actually, from a recent Seagate ad (or was it an article on their new line of
drives?) it states that commodore is using Seagates new line of high impact
drives that can witstand up to 150 g's or something like that..
.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------.
| UUCP: {crash tcnet petrus quest}!orbit!pnet51!chucks | Amiga, IBM, and any |
| ARPA: crash!orbit!pnet51!chu...@nosc.mil | system you let me |
| INET: chu...@pnet51.orb.mn.org | get my grubby mind |
|------------------------------------------------------| into. |
| Programmer at large, employment options welcome, inquire within. |
Harri Juhani Holopainen
>j...@caleb.UUCP (Jim Pritchett) writes:
>>In article <1c9ig9...@hpsdlss3.sdd.hp.com>, Brian Gragg writes:
>>
>>> Well, my 2 and 3 year old daughters use my amiga and I know the hard disk would
>>> not stand the abuse the keyboard would get. (The keyboard doesn't sit still
>>> often) ...(my turn..no my turn..no my turn)...
>>
>
>Actually, from a recent Seagate ad (or was it an article on their new line of
>drives?) it states that commodore is using Seagates new line of high impact
The name 'Seagate' associated with hard drives gives me itchy warts. Of course
my experiments with two 20 & 40M SCSI drives is not anything you'd call a
representative sample, so it's merely an emotional thing. FFS floppies are almost
faster than the 20M, there are known to be chain saws that are more quiet and
an old 42M Quantum ProDrive is twice as fast as the 40M Seagate. The retail price
for the 40M Seagate was 2 yrs ago 3600 FIM (~900 or so $ back then) in the local
Mac (official) dealer.
>drives that can witstand up to 150 g's or something like that..
Well there mast be SOME reason why they manage to sell the drives... :)
>
>..-----------------------------------------------------------------------------.
>| UUCP: {crash tcnet petrus quest}!orbit!pnet51!chucks | Amiga, IBM, and any |
>| ARPA: crash!orbit!pnet51!chu...@nosc.mil | system you let me |
>| INET: chu...@pnet51.orb.mn.org | get my grubby mind |
>|------------------------------------------------------| into. |
>| Programmer at large, employment options welcome, inquire within. |
--
.sig transit gloria mundi.
Skip Sauls
>In article <86...@orbit.cts.com> chu...@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Erik Funkenbusch) writes:
>>j...@caleb.UUCP (Jim Pritchett) writes:
>>>In article <1c9ig9...@hpsdlss3.sdd.hp.com>, Brian Gragg writes:
>>>
>>>> Well, my 2 and 3 year old daughters use my amiga and I know the hard disk
>>>> would not stand the abuse the keyboard would get. (The keyboard doesn't
>>>> sit still often) ...(my turn..no my turn..no my turn)...
>>
>>Actually, from a recent Seagate ad (or was it an article on their new line of
>>drives?) it states that commodore is using Seagates new line of high impact
>
>The name 'Seagate' associated with hard drives gives me itchy warts. Of course
>my experiments with two 20 & 40M SCSI drives is not anything you'd call a
>representative sample, so it's merely an emotional thing. FFS floppies are
>almost faster than the 20M, there are known to be chain saws that are more
>quiet and an old 42M Quantum ProDrive is twice as fast as the 40M Seagate.
>The retail price for the 40M Seagate was 2 yrs ago 3600 FIM (~900 or so $
>back then) in the local Mac (official) dealer.
Well, things seem to have changed a bit. I've been using a couple of 245M
Seagates on my 486 at work and have been delighted with them. They are as
fast or faster than the Quantum 52M that used to be in my A3000 and the
Maxtor 210M which is in it currently. As I've never had trouble with any
of the drives, all seem to be equally reliable. The Seagates were actually
less expensive than the Maxtor, but they are also IDE instead of SCSI. I'll
probably be purchasing one of these beasts to supplement the tiny 120M drive
in the stock A4000. :-)
>>drives that can witstand up to 150 g's or something like that..
>
>Well there mast be SOME reason why they manage to sell the drives... :)
Well, the same thing can be said about Commodore managing to sell Amigas. :-)
Skip Sauls
sk...@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu
Dana B Bourgeois
I looked into the $100 cases available for Intel motherboards and it
is not a drop-in replacement. Most of the case manufacturers have
engineered the metal around the Intel motherbaord form-factor which
means there is usually something in the way when you try to fit the
larger Amiga motherboard in the case. This is not to say it can't
be done. Lots of people have done it. I see home-brew tower Amigas
for sale in the marketplace all the time. But what makes sense for
a one-off usually does NOT make sense in volume. For fit, finish,
quality, reliability, economy of scale, stockability, and lots of
other *ilities, engineering a tower for the Amiga line of machines
and making them as needed is (my guess here, guys) far and away
the smart thing to do even if the cost for the bare case is higher.
Even if the cost for the case, engineering, and assembly is higher.
Hopefully, this case will be reused in many other products and the
price difference will come down to the $60-100 of DOS hardware.
That out of the way, the next question is:
"when will commodore put together a Tower Kit for converting non-
tower machines to the tower case? It would be a tower case, cables,
and hardware. Price for case, power supply and hardware should be
under $200 (actual price not SRP). All I have is an A2000 so I
dont know if this is even doable. How would you handle lining up
the tracks that hold card edges? The A2000 is different from the
A3000 which is different from the A4000, right? Drives up cost.
Clones have standardized the slot spacing and location.
Dana Bourgeois
felin...@cup.portal.com
Tommy Petersson
: In article <1992Nov4.1...@nntp.hut.fi> hur...@niksula.hut.fi (Harri Juhani Holopainen) writes:
: >In article <86...@orbit.cts.com> chu...@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Erik Funkenbusch) writes:
: >>j...@caleb.UUCP (Jim Pritchett) writes:
: >>>In article <1c9ig9...@hpsdlss3.sdd.hp.com>, Brian Gragg writes:
: >>>
: >>>> Well, my 2 and 3 year old daughters use my amiga and I know the hard disk
: >>>> would not stand the abuse the keyboard would get. (The keyboard doesn't
: >>>> sit still often) ...(my turn..no my turn..no my turn)...
: >>
: >>Actually, from a recent Seagate ad (or was it an article on their new line of
: >>drives?) it states that commodore is using Seagates new line of high impact
: >
: >The name 'Seagate' associated with hard drives gives me itchy warts. Of course
: >my experiments with two 20 & 40M SCSI drives is not anything you'd call a
: >representative sample, so it's merely an emotional thing. FFS floppies are
: >almost faster than the 20M, there are known to be chain saws that are more
: >quiet and an old 42M Quantum ProDrive is twice as fast as the 40M Seagate.
: >The retail price for the 40M Seagate was 2 yrs ago 3600 FIM (~900 or so $
: >back then) in the local Mac (official) dealer.
:
: Well, things seem to have changed a bit. I've been using a couple of 245M
: Seagates on my 486 at work and have been delighted with them. They are as
: fast or faster than the Quantum 52M that used to be in my A3000 and the
: Maxtor 210M which is in it currently. As I've never had trouble with any
: of the drives, all seem to be equally reliable. The Seagates were actually
: less expensive than the Maxtor, but they are also IDE instead of SCSI. I'll
: probably be purchasing one of these beasts to supplement the tiny 120M drive
: in the stock A4000. :-)
Well, Seagate has bought Imprimis (a couple of years ago, former a
division of Control Data) and has not had the time to destroy the good
work done by Imprimis.
Seagate drives has to withstand 150G due to the traditional "throw-the-
shit-out-the-window" reaction many users get (apart from itchy warts:-).
--
=============================================================================
Tommy Petersson to...@enea.se Enea Data AB, Sweden
=============================================================================