NewTek unveils "Flyer" at NAB
Harv R Laser
and LightWave mailing lists, comp.sys.amiga.graphics and
comp.sys.amiga.misc on Usenet).
------
I attended NewTek's NAB Press reception in a large balloom
at Ceaser's Palace in Las Vegas, NV this afternoon. What follows (after
my comments) is one of the press releases (probably the most
significant one) from the press kit I received there.
(Time permitting I'll type in and post the others as well)
Some of the people I noticed in attendance at this standing-room-only
reception were: Brad (brother of Dana) Carvey (Toaster
pioneer/hardware nice guy), Jeff Porter (Commodore Engineering),
Lou Wallace & Linda LaFlamme (Desktop Video World magazine),
Jim Plant (Video Toaster User), Don Hicks (Amazing Computing),
Scott Thede (Axiom Software), Mitch Lopes, Tony Gomez, Ben Fuller,
Arnie Cachelin, and quite a few other long-time Amiga developers,
boosters, authors, dealers, and high priests. :) and, of course
reporters and editors from just about every computer/video/graphics
magazine you'd care to name. Toaster Guru Lee Stranahan was
spotted running around in and out of the area behind the big
projection screen in his trademark baggy shorts.
The same presentation was given three times - first for the press,
then for dealers, and thirdly for the general NAB attendee audience.
Ceaser's palace has very opulent meeting/ballrooms. I can only
imagine what it must cost to rent one for an afternoon, plus
catering for over 1000 people.
Tim Jenison, NewTek's head honcho, handled most of the duties at
the microphone, describing the new products which were illustrated
on a huge projection screen by a technician at the controls of a
nearby Toaster system.
A video was shown first, which was a parody of NewTek's typical
promo tape - the dulcent tones of Ken Nordine describing how the
Toaster is the most siginificant invention in the history of the
universe, etc., and teasing the audience with "you'll have to wait
till tomorrow to find out what this is blah blah etc." Then the
voice of Penn (& Teller) Jillette took over for some humorous
"that was all baloney" relief and introduced the new product:
the Video Toaster Flyer, a tapeless "non-linear" editing system
which integrates into and becomes part of a Toaster/Amiga.
Press release follows. Any typing errors are mine. All
superlatives are NewTek's :)
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
contact: Jud Alford, NewTek Inc. (913) 228-8000
NEWTEK STUNS NAB WITH THE INTRODUCTION OF THE VIDEO TOASTER FLYER
TAPELESS EDITING SYSTEM
Las Vegas, March 20, 1994 - NewTek, Inc., the pioneers of the desktop
video industry, announce the Video Toaster Flyer, the first D2 quality
tapeless editing system. With the Flyer priced at $3995, NewTek once
again shatters the price/performance standards for broadcast
quality video production just as they did with the release of the
Video Toaster in 1990.
"When we originally conceived the idea for the Video Toaster it was
to provide all the tools necessary to create broadcast quality
television at a price almost anyone could afford." said Tim
Jenison, NewTek President. "With the introduction of the
Video Toaster Flyer we have made the tools even more accessible,
reducing the cost of production by an order of magnitude."
The Video Toaster Flyer is the result of more than seven years of
intense research and development. The Video Toaster Flyer
offers D2 quality video and CD quality audio editing in a tapeless, non-
linear environment. The Video Toaster Flyer tapeless editor
allows the user to dial in the video quality, up to lossless
D2 quality. All video data is stored on computer hard drives
that allow the user to access particular segments instantaneously
without having to shuttle from one point to another as in
traditional tape editing. The system employs an easy to use, drag and
drop storyboard interface.
The breakthrough technology in the Video Toaster Flyer is NewTek's
revolutionary new VTASC compression algorithm. VTASC sets a
new standard for hard disk based video compresson by combining
D2, broadcast quality video with unprecedented compression ratios.
NewTek is currently in discussion with a number of vendors looking
to license VTASC and Video Toaster Flyer technology.
The Video Toaster Flyer continues NewTek's tradition of providing
easy to use, broadcast quality video production tools, at
unbelivevably low prices.. The complete Video Toaster Flyer
system provides the ability to incorporate all of the tools from
the Video Toaster; digital video effects, paint graphics,
titles and animations directly into productions edited from one
simple interface. For Toaster LightWave 3D users, the tapeless
editor will allow the blending of moving video easily and
seamlessly into animated video prouctions.
NewTek will be demonstrating the Video Toaster Flyer at the
National Association of Broadcasters Convention, March 21-24
in Booth #11050.
###
Jenison explained that the system using the Flyer should be
equipped with two _large_ hard drives (at least 1Gigabyte each
was his minimum recommendation). He also explained that no
video tape was used in his presentation to the audience
(described above) as everything was being played directly off
hard disk by the Toaster/Flyer system. Among other claims,
he touted their VTASC compression scheme as "better than
JPEG or MPEG".
By the way, 1 Gig of disk space is enough to hold about six
minutes of combined video/audio using the Flyer. The Flyer interface,
as shown, looks quite nice. It uses little thumbnail miniatures (similar
to Toaster "croutons") which can be dragged and dropped in any
order, with transitions dropped between them - basically it's
as simple as mousing a little picture from one part of the
Flyer's screen (storage) into another part (storyboard) - looked
like something the complete video editing novice/idiot could handle.
No confusing intersecting timelines or long strings of numbers
to muck with. Each video or still clip's crouton also has a
detail menu which can be called up to tweak different parameters,
such as the start/end time of a clip if using the whole clip
is not desired. Now, mind you, I've never done any video editing
but this thing makes it look absolutely painless.
An appx 3 minute "video clip" of LightWave scenes was shown
towards the end of the presentation and it was totally impressive.
To a driving rock soundtrack synced perfectly with the cuts,
we viewed short samples of dozens of mainstream professional
productions (Babylon 5, seaQuest, the Shasta commercial,
Todd Rundgren music videos, tons of stuff from The Post Group, etc.
etc.) all of which were created in LightWave.
The Video Toaster Flyer, according to Jenison, should be in mass
production in July '94, and be on dealers' shelves by the Fall.
Lastly, for the "advocates" out there, I did not hear the word
"Amiga" uttered once during the presentation.
Harv
ha...@cup.portal.com
Jeff Walkup
"$3995" and "available in the Fall".
You'd think they'd have learned their lesson ... ;^)
Harv, please post more about it when you see it at the show. Especially
the compression methods -- can they really mean "lossless D2"? I
estimate that would have to mean frame sizes of 722K, can they really
record & playback at that rate?
Does it have component (BetaCam) in/out?
--
Jeff Walkup <jwa...@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu> Computer Graphics, Animation, Video
Thomas Strauss
->If all this is true, it's time for another revolution!
Thank you for this mere amount of information...
Hmpf....
SO WHAT DOES IT SAY ????
->--
-> cout << "cm...@netcom.com" << endl;
;-) very interested ...
CU
Thomas
-- .:
Thomas Strauss| You can reach me via: | .:::
Josefstr.64 | Internet : th...@coli.uni-sb.de | .;' ::
66809 Nalbach | UseNet : th...@outsite.saar.de | .;' ::
06838/85218 | Z-Netz : t...@outworld.zer | .:::::::::
06838/84739 <-@-local BBS : SY...@OUTSIDE.ZER | .::. .::.
Michael van Elst
>In article <1994Mar21.1...@mpifr-bonn.mpg.de>, Michael van Elst wrote:
>: They talked about 6 Minutes per Gigabyte which is the same compression
>: ratio as is achieved by Motion-JPEG.
>What's that, 8:1?
The common JPEG encoders handle pictures of 768x288 in real-time and
use 4:1:1 subsampled data. A frame therefore takes 331776 Bytes. At
50 fps you need about 5.6 GBytes for 6 minutes. With this 1:5.6 compression
you still need to move nearly 3 MByte/s to and from your hard disk and
(usually twice) over the I/O bus.
Regards,
--
Michael van Elst
Internet: mle...@mpifr-bonn.mpg.de mle...@serpens.rhein.de
"A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."
Michael van Elst
> Why the need for _two_ drives?
Probably to get real-time transfers when you actually _edit_ a sequence
instead of just playing back or recording one.
> BTW, how much are multi gig drives these days?
Hmm. 4GB for $2000 ?
ba...@admin1.memphis.edu
using S-VHS and don't need that high a quality.
I saw an I-Mix system with 5gig and they got 1hour of video and 2 hours
of sound; how does this compare to the Flyer????
Mike Austin
--
cout << "cm...@netcom.com" << endl;
Mike Powell
6 miuntes/gig sounds pretty low compared to what I've heard
on PC's (around 15 mins/gig). Unless I'm missing something,
6 mins/gig is not "unprecidented compression".
Am I missing something here?
-Mike-
Michael van Elst
>Harv, please post more about it when you see it at the show. Especially
>the compression methods -- can they really mean "lossless D2"? I
>estimate that would have to mean frame sizes of 722K, can they really
>record & playback at that rate?
They talked about 6 Minutes per Gigabyte which is the same compression
ratio as is achieved by Motion-JPEG. So the "lossless" was a pure
"marketing lossless".
Media-Flex Technology
: Sounds interesting, but two things bug me:
: "$3995" and "available in the Fall".
DBC32 avail NOW for less than $3500 or so
: Does it have component (BetaCam) in/out?
DBC32 = composite/YUV/SVIDEO in & out
RAUL
Media-Flex Technology
: The common JPEG encoders handle pictures of 768x288 in real-time and
: use 4:1:1 subsampled data. A frame therefore takes 331776 Bytes. At
which is what the DigitalBroadCaster-32 does (NEW ONE)
: 50 fps you need about 5.6 GBytes for 6 minutes. With this 1:5.6 compression
: you still need to move nearly 3 MByte/s to and from your hard disk and
: (usually twice) over the I/O bus.
Works well with Z3fastlane SCSI-II DMA
Raul
Michael van Elst
>What is the time per Gig at lower compression rates? Some of us are
>using S-VHS and don't need that high a quality.
Well, you just have to divide. You have roughly one Gigabyte per Minute
of raw data. 1:4 compression yields very good quality, 1:15 compression
is acceptable. This then gives a bit more than 15 minutes of video on a
Gigabyte disk.
>I saw an I-Mix system with 5gig and they got 1hour of video and 2 hours
>of sound; how does this compare to the Flyer????
5 Gig for 1 hour means a compression ratio of about 1:11. I don't know
wether the flyer supports this kind of operation but the common motion-
JPEG boards have no problem with it.
Jeff Walkup
: They talked about 6 Minutes per Gigabyte which is the same compression
: ratio as is achieved by Motion-JPEG.
What's that, 8:1?
: So the "lossless" was a pure "marketing lossless".
Figured something like that... Or "virtually lossless", or
"perceptibly lossless". ;-)
Michael van Elst
The minutes/gig ratio depends on the compression. The higher the
compression the more fits on the disk and the lower is the quality.
Professionals usually need the quality of low compression ratios.
That's why people try to get the smallest compression ratios that
are high enough to reduce the amount of data to what the disks
and busses can handle.
Mike Powell
Ok...
how does the video get _on_ to the HD in the first place?
I assme that Flyer has 'spigot' type hardware to allow
'recording' to the drive(s).
Why the need for _two_ drives? I am assuming that two
drives are used together to get around some xfr rate or
seek limitations... or maybe to separate audio/visual
recording....
BTW, how much are multi gig drives these days?
-Mike-
Bill Mills
>Jeff Walkup (jwa...@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu) wrote:
>: Sounds interesting, but two things bug me:
>
>: "$3995" and "available in the Fall".
>
>DBC32 avail NOW for less than $3500 or so
>
costs around $1400 additional to add a Studio 16 card to the DB32 (when
it is finally supported) bringing the cost of the DB32 up to $4900 or
so.
As to all this conjecture about can they really do D2, and will it
really take xxx minutes per gig. Since they are using their own
Audio/Video compression scheme, and not wavelet or JPEG, all this
conjecture is meaningless. Just because jpeg is lossy at cetain levels
and not at others and yeilds certain compression ratios does not mean it
is the best possible method of lossless/acceptable loss compression. If
that were so, there are a lot of Fortune 500 companies wasting their
time and millions if not billions of dollars investing in compression
research.
IMHO the biggest advantage I see is that they say it is using the
Toaster for its transitions (through digital I/O to the Toaster). All
other non-linear systems (AVID, etc.) make you sit and wait while a
transition (wipe, dissolve, DVE, etc.) is rendered as an animation.
Using an actual swither means is is totally real-time.
Be seeing you...
-Bill "Hoping this product ships before my CD32 project starts so I can
buy a flyer instead of a DB32" Mills
Bill_...@CSUFresno.edu
---------------------------------------------------------------------
(=====) Corinthian Media Services Video
| | | (209)277-8150 Multimedia
| | | 2562 N. Dewey Ave. Touch Screen Info Centers
| | | Fresno, CA 93722 Production/Consultation
| | |
(=====) This is a guest account, CMS is not affiliated with CSUF
Michael van Elst
>Michael van Elst (mle...@specklec.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de) wrote:
>: The common JPEG encoders handle pictures of 768x288 in real-time and
>: use 4:1:1 subsampled data. A frame therefore takes 331776 Bytes. At
>Sorry standard CCIR601 is 720x288 fields at 4:2:2
I didn't say anything about CCIR601. The 768 pixel figure is from the
chip, it is no problem to use 'just' 720 pixel. As for 4:2:2, it is
always a bit confusing to me. I was thinking about full res luminance
and quarter size chroma information.
>: 50 fps you need about 5.6 GBytes for 6 minutes. With this 1:5.6 compression
>: you still need to move nearly 3 MByte/s to and from your hard disk and
>: (usually twice) over the I/O bus.
>Works well with Z3fastlane SCSI-II DMA
I was just pointing out the requirements. People with A2000s will know
that they need a new computer when they want to get best results.
Regards,
--
Michael van Elst
UUCP: universe!local-cluster!milky-way!sol!earth!uunet!unido!mpirbn!p554mve
Internet: p55...@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de
Richard
wrote:
> how does the video get _on_ to the HD in the first place?
>
Good question.
Hopefully Newtek has a few more announcements to make. If so, Harv
may have a lot of typing to do. ;-) We'll see.
> Why the need for _two_ drives?
Good question.
> BTW, how much are multi gig drives these days?
It is under a dollar a meg, but it depends on other things.
Micropolis(sp?) has some special drives that address the thermal
recalibration issue for sustained high data rates for video.
The external version has a pretty snazzy case so I imagine the
price tag is snazzy too ;-(
<<<<===========================================================
Richard Norman nor...@eisner.decus.org
AMIGA --- Amazing Multitasking Interactive Graphics & Animation
===========================================================>>>>
Michael Wolf
NAB":
HRL> I attended NewTek's NAB Press reception in a large balloom
HRL> at Ceaser's Palace in Las Vegas, NV this afternoon. What follows (after
HRL> my comments) is one of the press releases (probably the most
HRL> significant one) from the press kit I received there.
HRL> (Time permitting I'll type in and post the others as well)
Did the mention whether there will be a PAL Version ?
HRL> Harv
HRL> ha...@cup.portal.com
(hoping and praying...)
Michael Wolf // Fido: 2:246/1115.10
\X/ UUCP: Mike...@bonebag.tynet.sub.org
"I will wear my hair long, an extension of my soul" - dreamtime
Mark Thompson
|> Michael van Elst wrote:
|> : They talked about 6 Minutes per Gigabyte which is the same compression
|> : ratio as is achieved by Motion-JPEG.
|>
|> Figured something like that... Or "virtually lossless", or
|> "perceptibly lossless". ;-)
No, they meant truely lossless. We are NOT talking about JPEG, MPEG, or
something like it. The VTASC compression that NewTek is using is capable
of true lossless compression with amazingly high compression ratios.
That is why the quality of the output of this product can completely
blow away the Avid, Media 100, DBC32, PAR, Imix, etc. Do not confuse this
technology with typical motion JPEG systems. Note that the Flyer can be
used as a lossy device as well.
%~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~%
% ` ' Mark Thompson CONCURRENT COMPUTER %
% --==* RADIANT *==-- ma...@westford.ccur.com Principal Graphics %
% ' Image ` ...!uunet!masscomp!mark Hardware Architect %
% Productions (508)392-2480 (603)424-1829 & General Nuisance %
% %
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Stuart Ferguson
| Why the need for _two_ drives? I am assuming that two
| drives are used together to get around some xfr rate or
| seek limitations... or maybe to separate audio/visual
| recording....
A/B roll. Just like an A/B roll tape editing system needs two
videotape players, Flyer needs two drives. A one drive system
might be possible, but it would be cuts-only, and there might be
a visible seek time between clips. Audio and video are recorded
together on a drive.
--
Stuart Ferguson (s...@netcom.com)
"How do you compute that? Where on the
graph do `must' and `cannot' meet?"
Sean C. Cunningham
: 6 miuntes/gig sounds pretty low compared to what I've heard
: on PC's (around 15 mins/gig). Unless I'm missing something,
: 6 mins/gig is not "unprecidented compression".
: Am I missing something here?
Yeah, what you're missing is the quality. Those PC editers provide NOWHERE
near "online" quality. "Online" quality will cost you big, 'till now I guess.
: -Mike-
--
DD-land: pockets@arcadia
// RealWorld: Sean C. Cunnigham "chmod this!"
\X/ cyberspace: poc...@netcom.com
DISCLAIMER: What, you think I speak for Cameron?
Sean C. Cunningham
I'd be interested in how they are getting information in and out of the
Toaster digitally...NewTek themselves have told us that the fabled "D2-port"
does not exist on the Toaster.
It would have been nice if they'd announced a truely digital (D1) or at least
component Toaster as well...composite sucks.
Michael van Elst
>something like it. The VTASC compression that NewTek is using is capable
>of true lossless compression with amazingly high compression ratios.
Well, it is very simple to get lossless compression.. simply do not
count the bits that come in.
Anyway, you will not tell me that the flyer gets comparable
compression ratios (1:5..1:15) which is needed for affordable
storage devices (like GB disks) using a _lossless_ compression
scheme.
There is a specific amount of information in a picture, there
is even more important a specific amount of _noise_ in a picture
that you have to _reproduce_ if you want to be truly lossless.
The flyer might use something completely different from JPEG and
might also produce better subjective visual results than JPEG, but
the result will be as lossy as JPEG (in terms of information).
J Eric Chard
>
>"$3995" and "available in the Fall".
Why does this bug you?
***********************************************************************
* (OOOOO) Je...@cup.portal.com | Synergy Graphix & Animation *
* (OOOOOOO) Welcome to Seattle! | Film and Video *
* \\\\\\ Have a latte'! | 2D, 3D, Morphing, Etc. *
***********************************************************************
"All I know is what I see on the monitors."
Jeff Walkup
: No, they meant truely lossless. We are NOT talking about JPEG, MPEG, or
: something like it. The VTASC compression that NewTek is using is capable
: of true lossless compression with amazingly high compression ratios.
Amazing! I wish I was there to see it. Will they be demo'ing it in the
S.F. area soon?
Jeff Walkup
: >"$3995" and "available in the Fall".
: ^^^^^^^^
: Why does this bug you?
Actually, the price alone doesn't bug me. The second part, and
especially the combination of the two are what bug me.
Stuart Ferguson wrote:
> A/B roll. Just like an A/B roll tape editing system needs two
> videotape players, Flyer needs two drives.
What does it record the edited video to? Does it use the Toaster for
effects? I assume it can run digital video thru software for effects,
in order to get a cleaner image. ? When it comes time for final dumping
to tape, what are the output options? Toaster composite / component /
digital / optical / AM radio?? For that matter, what are the input
options?
PTHORN
mle...@speckled.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst) writes:
>Anyway, you will not tell me that the flyer gets comparable
>compression ratios (1:5..1:15) which is needed for affordable
>storage devices (like GB disks) using a _lossless_ compression
>scheme.
>There is a specific amount of information in a picture, there
>is even more important a specific amount of _noise_ in a picture
>that you have to _reproduce_ if you want to be truly lossless.
Just about anything is possible at the hardware level! Much of the speed
from these CODECS is due to chip level compression algos. JPEG and MPEG as a
standard are lossy but it is conceivable that you could compress video and
audio without loss. We do it all the time when we LHARC or Zip files. The
custom
chips do the work so the cpu just moves the compressed data and the CODEC
handles the rest.
Michael van Elst
>standard are lossy but it is conceivable that you could compress video and
>audio without loss. We do it all the time when we LHARC or Zip files. The
>custom
>chips do the work so the cpu just moves the compressed data and the CODEC
>handles the rest.
Try to compress 24bit pictures with LHARC or Zip. Try to do this
with different kinds of 24bit pictures. You will get low compression
rates for most and high compression rates on a few pictures, and you
get no compression at all for other pictures.
BTW, the 'custom chips doing the rest' is the same for JPEG boards.
Richard
> options?
>
Don't know for sure, BUT the Passport 4000 device that Newtek and
Prime Image announced may be a required "breakout" box. It does
more than just PAL. news release also said something about additional
slots. If true, this would help the existing 4000 owners since
the VT takes up two slots.
just a guess. I wish Newtek would spit out some more specs.
Thomas Setzer
>jwa...@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu (Jeff Walkup) writes:
>|> Michael van Elst wrote:
>|> : They talked about 6 Minutes per Gigabyte which is the same compression
>|> : ratio as is achieved by Motion-JPEG.
>|> : So the "lossless" was a pure "marketing lossless".
>|>
>|> Figured something like that... Or "virtually lossless", or
>|> "perceptibly lossless". ;-)
>
>No, they meant truely lossless. We are NOT talking about JPEG, MPEG, or
>something like it. The VTASC compression that NewTek is using is capable
>of true lossless compression with amazingly high compression ratios.
>That is why the quality of the output of this product can completely
>blow away the Avid, Media 100, DBC32, PAR, Imix, etc. Do not confuse this
>technology with typical motion JPEG systems. Note that the Flyer can be
>used as a lossy device as well.
How many minutes per Gig are they getting in lossless mode? The report
didn't say whether 6min/G was lossless or lossy. What is the compression
ratio of the lossless scheme?
Also, on another Newtek related issue... Why Windows NT? Why not Unix. Seems
to me that Unix is much more accepted in the industry, can be found in more
places and on more platforms, etc etc. Does this have to do with the
way Windows NT works, or was it a guess as to how the future is going to go?
What was the basis of this decision? (I'd love to see LightWave cranking
away on all these SPARC 10s we have laying around doing nothing at night!)
Geez, don't wanna start a flame war, but Microsoft hasn't been a company
I've looked to for amazing innovative ideas in the past(good marketing maybe,
but....)
Tom Setzer
set...@ssd.comm.mot.com
"And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery
intellect. Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" - Calvin
Jeffrey Goldman
: >Sounds interesting, but two things bug me:
: >
: >"$3995" and "available in the Fall".
: ^^^^^^^^
: Why does this bug you?
I wasn't the original poster, but...
Screamer --- "$10000" and "available 4th quarter of '93"
'Nuff said...
J.----->
E-Mail: jgol...@asc.bu.edu
Stuart Ferguson
| Stuart Ferguson wrote:
| > A/B roll. Just like an A/B roll tape editing system needs two
| > videotape players, Flyer needs two drives.
| What does it record the edited video to?
What'a ya got? Seriously, it's just a video source and can record
to anything. Since it is a fully non-linear, high quality A/B roll
system, your finished product comes out the back. You can record it
on anything.
There's three SCSI-2 busses on the board, and each bus can handle up
to 7 drives for a total of 21 hard drives if you want that many.
With drives available today, that's 36 Gigabytes of storage which
could hold about two and a half hours of high-quality video (4Meg/sec
with typical at 3Meg and peak of 5Meg).
| Does it use the Toaster for effects?
Yes. It hooks to inputs 1 and 2 on the Toaster.
| When it comes time for final dumping
| to tape, what are the output options? Toaster composite / component /
| digital / optical / AM radio??
Since the effects are done by the Toaster, I assume that the output
is whatever you can get out of a Toaster. Composite, usually. And
stereo audio, of course.
| For that matter, what are the input options?
The block diagram shows composite and S-Video inputs. Tape sources
will need a TBC. The Flyer board has 5 BNC's on the back, which would
account for three composite channels (1 in , 2 out) and one S-Video
channel (in). That last bit is a guess on my part.
(* I'm not speaking officially for NewTek on this product. I was just
another interested spectator at the show. *)
Richard
> on anything.
This is the primary question. Out the back of WHAT?
> Since the effects are done by the Toaster, I assume that the output
> is whatever you can get out of a Toaster.
This makes sense because there would be no need for a second encoder.
But most folks would rather have a better encoder with more output options.
So how does the Passport 4000 fit into all of this?
> (* I'm not speaking officially for NewTek on this product. I was just
> another interested spectator at the show. *)
Did they show the passport 4000?
Thanks for info Stuart.
Paul_-_...@cup.portal.com
Digital Broadcaster 32 = cool hardware - no software
Video Toaster Flyer = cool hardware, good software, NewTek
For the record, the Video Toaster Flyer as a full blown system will run
approx. $12,000 - this is directly from NewTek.
The DB32 is a hodge podge of equipment - the DMI Jpeg board for video, the
Sunrize Audio board for Audio, and ADPro for transitions.
The VTF is an all in one system. You will be able to buy an entire
assembled system directly from any NewTek dealer. This is a BIG plus for
the Amiga since one of the problems with the Amiga is that the user is
expected to build his own system a lot of the time. Most people just want
something that they take home (or to the office) and just turn on. The DB32
looks fantastic, but no average film/video person is going to want to have
to put together all of that equipment and have to learn how to program AREXX
to do a transition.
BTW - from what I hear the 2 hard drives are used to do real-time
transitions. This is something that not even our $200,000 Avid Media
Composer 8000 can do!
Paul
**************************************************************************
* My opinions are my own. They do not
Paul Griswold * necessarily represent the views of
Director * FilmSmith International, or its
FilmSmith International Inc. * subsidiaries.
*
**************************************************************************
Jeff Walkup
: What'a ya got?
BetaCam SP.
: Seriously, it's just a video source and can record to anything.
... anything that you can connect to it's _____ outputs.
(Please fill in the blank.)
: your finished product comes out the back.
Okay, but how many layers are possible in your "finished" product?
As in, I have two images I want to thrown in. Fine, one comes from the
A drive, the other from the B drive. Now I'd like to take that and
throw in two more images. Can this be done all-digitally, or must I
record the first pass to tape (whatever format) and run it back thru?
: Since the effects are done by the Toaster, I assume that the output
: is whatever you can get out of a Toaster. Composite, usually.
Composite, only -- right?
: The block diagram shows composite and S-Video inputs. Tape sources
: will need a TBC. The Flyer board has 5 BNC's on the back, which would
: account for three composite channels (1 in , 2 out) and one S-Video
: channel (in). That last bit is a guess on my part.
If it stores "D2" quality video, how do we get D2 quality video IN?
S-Video?
: (* I'm not speaking officially for NewTek on this product. I was just
: another interested spectator at the show. *)
Well thank you for any info you can provide!
Joel Edward Swan
>
> Ok...
>
> how does the video get _on_ to the HD in the first place?
>
> I assme that Flyer has 'spigot' type hardware to allow
> 'recording' to the drive(s).
>
> Why the need for _two_ drives? I am assuming that two
For A/B rolls mainly. It helps if the video can be read from two drives
instead of one.
> drives are used together to get around some xfr rate or
> seek limitations... or maybe to separate audio/visual
> recording....
>
>
> BTW, how much are multi gig drives these days?
>
> -Mike-
>
-Joel
-------
========================================================================
/ Joel E. Swan....Pres./...Media Specialties, Ltd., Oak Forest, IL. USA /
/ & Senior Producer..../...Moody Broadcasting Network, Chicago, IL. USA /
/ Portal ID: joeles..../...joe...@cup.portal.com / Cert. Dev. for CBM /
========================================================================
Joel Edward Swan
b
>onn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst) writes:
>> In <2mkk0i$c...@news.csus.edu> jwa...@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu (Jeff Walkup) writes
:
>>>In article <1994Mar21.1...@mpifr-bonn.mpg.de>, Michael van Elst wrot
e
>:
>>>: They talked about 6 Minutes per Gigabyte which is the same compression
>>>: ratio as is achieved by Motion-JPEG.
>>
>>>What's that, 8:1?
>>
>> use 4:1:1 subsampled data. A frame therefore takes 331776 Bytes. At
>> you still need to move nearly 3 MByte/s to and from your hard disk and
>> (usually twice) over the I/O bus.
>>
>> --
>> Michael van Elst
>>
>> Internet: mle...@mpifr-bonn.mpg.de mle...@serpens.rhein.de
>> "A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."
>using S-VHS and don't need that high a quality.
>I saw an I-Mix system with 5gig and they got 1hour of video and 2 hours
>of sound; how does this compare to the Flyer????
>
>ba...@admin1.memst.edu
NewTek says their D2 quality will give you about 6minutes per gig. I'll try
to find out about other schemes.
I'll also try to find time to tell all about the totally awesome things the
OpalVision suite can do. Really makes the Toaster look cheap in a number of
ways.
Oh, one more thing - NewTek says you'll need a CDROM drive to load the
software for the Flyer/Toaster system. They will sell one with there
systems (an NEC if I recall correctly from the info sheet I left at work).
Joel Edward Swan
> 6 miuntes/gig sounds pretty low compared to what I've heard
> on PC's (around 15 mins/gig). Unless I'm missing something,
>
> Am I missing something here?
Yes, you certainly are. :-) The important "breakthrough" is not high
compression ratios, but the quality of the video after compression.
Sure, you can get huge ratios on the other systems, but you also get the
crummy jpeg "blotchies." NewTek's compression scheme claims to maintain a D2
quality. They also offer higher ratios like you are talking about - only the
quality degrades. The difference is (they say) that their's is based on the NT
SC
signal and so as it degrades, it looks more natural, like what you are used
to seeing with HF roll-off, noise, etc.
> -Mike-
Joel Edward Swan
>: Sounds interesting, but two things bug me:
>
>: "$3995" and "available in the Fall".
List. It will be much less on the street - just like the Toaster. I would
guess around $2500.
>DBC32 avail NOW for less than $3500 or so
Available now, but still not working enough to do serious work. I
saw it crash a number of times as I watched at NAB.
Oh, BTW- how much to add audio? Hmm, $1400 or so more? Looks like the
price just went up to almost $5000. The Flyer has it built in - though not
as flexible as the Sunrize board. The Flyer doesn't understand SMPTE - YET.
>: Does it have component (BetaCam) in/out?
I don't recall. I believe not.
>DBC32 = composite/YUV/SVIDEO in & out
Which isn't worth much is you use jpeg compression :-( NewTek "claims"
their's looks equivalent to D2 (whatever they base that on???).
>RAUL
DBC32 currently relies on ADPro to do transistions. It takes a long time to
render these transitions. The Flyer integrates with the Toaster and does
the playback QUICKLY in REALTIME. It also has its own SCSI ports (3 for up
to 21 drives).
Doesn't the DBC32 also require a 3rd party video card and SCSI port?
Joel Edward Swan
>>: Sounds interesting, but two things bug me:
>>
>>: "$3995" and "available in the Fall".
>>
>>DBC32 avail NOW for less than $3500 or so
>>
>>: Does it have component (BetaCam) in/out?
>>
>>
>>DBC32 = composite/YUV/SVIDEO in & out
>>
>>RAUL
>>
>
>
>Digital Broadcaster 32 = cool hardware - no software
Hardware? Standard industry and 3rd part stuff. Not super hard to do.
Software? Hmm, tough to pull off, and it shows.
>Video Toaster Flyer = cool hardware, good software, NewTek
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Certainly not yet. As THEY kept stating, it's not finished. Sure could
tell too - it crashed every few minutes :-o It was missing a number of the
features too.
>For the record, the Video Toaster Flyer as a full blown system will run
>approx. $12,000 - this is directly from NewTek.
And that was using pretty high list prices as well (Amiga 400 for $3600,
etc.)
>The DB32 is a hodge podge of equipment - the DMI Jpeg board for video, the
>Sunrize Audio board for Audio, and ADPro for transitions.
Yep, a hodge podge.
>The VTF is an all in one system. You will be able to buy an entire
>assembled system directly from any NewTek dealer. This is a BIG plus for
>the Amiga since one of the problems with the Amiga is that the user is
>expected to build his own system a lot of the time. Most people just want
>something that they take home (or to the office) and just turn on. The DB32
Very true.
>looks fantastic, but no average film/video person is going to want to have
>to put together all of that equipment and have to learn how to program AREXX
>to do a transition.
They claim to be adding there own support for this - ie. supplying abunch of
premade arexx scripts!! Aaarg.
>BTW - from what I hear the 2 hard drives are used to do real-time
>transitions. This is something that not even our $200,000 Avid Media
True, but it's using the Toaster to do the transitions. Not hard on the
other systems as well, if they are hooked to a switcher. No big deal.
>Composer 8000 can do!
>
>Paul
>
>
>**************************************************************************
> * My opinions are my own. They do not
> Paul Griswold * necessarily represent the views of
> Director * FilmSmith International, or its
> FilmSmith International Inc. * subsidiaries.
> *
>**************************************************************************
-Joel
Matt Pierce
Are you sure? I mean if this were the case then you would have to make sure
that you put your edit sequences on alternate drives as you sent your tape
do the drive - doesn't make much sense to me. I think the second drive is
more likely to be used as the record drive so that you can play back the
edited version without glitches and without losing a generation.
Just my .02,
Matt Pierce
WEEKS, THOMAS WILLIAM
>In article <Cn182...@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>, mi...@sr.hp.com (Mike Powell)
>wrote:
>
>> how does the video get _on_ to the HD in the first place?
>>
>Good question.
>Hopefully Newtek has a few more announcements to make. If so, Harv
>may have a lot of typing to do. ;-) We'll see.
>
>> Why the need for _two_ drives?
>
>Good question.
Probably becasue their hardware interface is an IDE interface and
the largest IDE's available are 1Gig (two 500Meggers slapped together),
and since you can only ADDRESS TWO IDE's via conventional means, THEY
SUGGEST 2 1GIG drives!
><<<<===========================================================
>Richard Norman nor...@eisner.decus.org
>AMIGA --- Amazing Multitasking Interactive Graphics & Animation
>===========================================================>>>>
Tom D Tek 7Bv)
__________________________________________________________________________
/ Thomas W. Weeks | __ Commodore Amiga 500/030 40MHz\
| Authorized C= Technician | /// 5M RAM, SyQuest 44M, 160M SCSI|
| Full Time EET Student | __ /// IBM 286 Hardware Emulator, |
| Texas A&M University | \\\/// Home Brew Audio A/D, HP48GX |
| tww...@venus.tamu.edu | \XX/ "Only Amiga makes it possible!" |
\______________________________|___________________________________________/
Jean-Marc Porchet
>
> >For the record, the Video Toaster Flyer as a full blown system will run
> >approx. $12,000 - this is directly from NewTek.
How many minutes of video are you getting for $12'000, 6 or 12 ????
--
PS : forgive my bad English, I'm still trying to learn it
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jean-Marc "JUMP" Porchet Phone : (41) 22-754-1758
EMAIL : ...{uunet,rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmehq!cbmswi!dynam!jmpor
or try mcsun!cbmswi!dynam!jmpor
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Simple things should be simple & complex things should be possible' Alan Kay
Sean C. Cunningham
: In article <pocketsC...@netcom.com>, Sean C. Cunningham writes:
: >
: > Yeah, what you're missing is the quality. Those PC editers provide NOWHERE
: > near "online" quality. "Online" quality will cost you big, 'till now I guess.
: >
: > : -Mike-
: >
: Then the question is what's more usefull an online non-linear editor
: or an offline non-linear editor ????
Either will do the job, one lets you walk away with the finished product in
your hands.
: If you shoot with film (most of the good TV series are still done this way
: ), you just need an off-line editor that output an KeyCode list and then
: you cut your original negatif.
I doubt that it's common to do it that way nowadays. The film is transfered
to D1, this gets you your final editing material as well as frames to play
with on the non-linear system.
: Even if you shoot in HDTV (Some european TV series are done this way),
: you can't use your non-linear online system (HDTV bitrate is 140 MB/s
: instead of 20 MB/s).
So what's your point, don't buy a square if you really need a circle? Of
course none of the current online systems would be "online" in an HD
environment. You'd need something like FLAME running on an Onyx, or it's
INFERNO on a PVS.
: --
: PS : forgive my bad English, I'm still trying to learn it
: -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
: Jean-Marc "JUMP" Porchet Phone : (41) 22-754-1758
: EMAIL : ...{uunet,rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmehq!cbmswi!dynam!jmpor
: or try mcsun!cbmswi!dynam!jmpor
: -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
: 'Simple things should be simple & complex things should be possible' Alan Kay
Scott - Maxwell
>: Sounds interesting, but two things bug me:
>
>: "$3995" and "available in the Fall".
>
>DBC32 avail NOW for less than $3500 or so
>
some info from them. I already ordered a Flyer information package last
week.
>RAUL
/===============================================================\
|Scott Maxwell * Q: How many Newtons does it tak to |
|sco...@cup.portal.com * screw in a lightbulb? |
|Amiga 1000, 2000, 1200 * A: Foux! Three to eat lemons, axe |
|Pet, SuperPET, Vic, 64 * gravy soup. |
|128D, 800XL, TI, //e * Just got my CD^32, Way Cool! |
\===============================================================/
Joel Edward Swan
>: >Sounds interesting, but two things bug me:
>: >
>: >"$3995" and "available in the Fall".
>: ^^^^^^^^
>
>: Why does this bug you?
>
> I wasn't the original poster, but...
>
> Screamer --- "$10000" and "available 4th quarter of '93"
>
> 'Nuff said...
No, not really, What do you mean? When was the Screamer displayed for 4
days with constant demos and lots of printed flyers? Was the screamer a
recent idea, or part of the original NewTek scheme for a "complete desktop
solution?"
The screamer was only a proposed product in answer to some of the pressure
from Holywood producers, not a long term goal.
> J.----->
>
> E-Mail: jgol...@asc.bu.edu
ba...@admin1.memphis.edu
> J Eric Chard (Je...@cup.portal.com) wrote:
> : >
> : >I'd be interested in how they are getting information in and out of the
> : >Toaster digitally...NewTek themselves have told us that the fabled "D2-port"
> : >does not exist on the Toaster.
> : >
> : >It would have been nice if they'd announced a truely digital (D1) or at least
> : >component Toaster as well...composite sucks.
>
>
>
> That wasn't a very accurate statement on my part. D2 is digital, but it's
> composite. D1 is component digital, which is better. D2 is kinda like
> "poorman's digital." I don't understand why they aren't at least doing a
> component analog out version of the Toaster (BetaCam SP & MII). At least
> that would be useful.
>
Look, a standard cable used in video can handle 100mhz of bandwidth. That
is much more than any current video standard but maybe HDTV. The
reason for the component outputs are for you people who want a pretty
picture on your cheap monitors. If you edit in digital you don't have
the crosstalk problem that you have with even the best analog video
decks. If you are working digital all you need as input is what
you are going to output anymore than that is going to be filtered
off by the recording deck when you output. Maybe some of you video
people should go back to school an get some electronics knowledge.
Mark Thompson
|> I just wonder what your opinion would be on this assumption. I am assuming
|> that since the Flyer directly ties into the Toaster and has lossless D2
|> video that the Flyer is basically a Toaster Framestore realtime decoder. It
|> just seems to make sense that the compression scheme that they are using is
|> the same that is used to compress framestores. What do you think?
An interesting assumption but not likely. At least not using the current
Framestore compression which would be inadequate to maintain reasonable
data bandwidth. In other words, Framestore compression would have to get
file sizes down around 100K per frame rather than the 500K that is typical
today. Besides, the Flyer output to the Toaster is really just raw
uncompressed video (presumeably either analog or digital composite).
%~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~%
% ` ' Mark Thompson CONCURRENT COMPUTER %
% --==* RADIANT *==-- ma...@westford.ccur.com Principal Graphics %
% ' Image ` ...!uunet!masscomp!mark Hardware Architect %
% Productions (508)392-2480 (603)424-1829 & General Nuisance %
% %
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J Eric Chard
>
>| I think the second drive is
>| more likely to be used as the record drive so that you can play back the
>| edited version without glitches and without losing a generation.
This kinda negates the idea of a non-linear editor. The whole
point is there IS no "edit master", only an EDL.
Alen Koebel
>
>Well one thing is for sure, Video Toaster competition was out in FULL force!
>I hear one of the big attractions was Pinicale's Aladdin system for the Pc,
>my partners claim its a TOASTER killer (thats bad casue we're Toaster
>dealers!!) Also OpalVision has teamed up with AmiLink makers RGB to product
>they're own ToasterKiller!! But is it VAPROWARE? Like the Screamer? Who
>knows, also it seems hardware developers of the once famed Screamer have
>released ready to oder Screamer called the Raptor! Just under 15k! Ten hour
>rendering in one hour! Matrox, Fast, Sony's Destiny, Quantel NonLinear,
>and even the makers of Billiance hit the scene with the V Machine! And to
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Well, it took them long enough. I remember seeing advertisements for this
vapourware product in 1988! Tell us more about it. What does it do?
>think AVId let release they're hard earned crown, I bet now... it will be a
>frighting year of new products... but alas thats what NAB is all about...
>
--
al...@electro.electro.com is Alen Koebel at Electrohome Ltd.,
Kitchener, ON, Canada Tel: (519) 744-7111 Fax: (519) 749-3136
Jean-Marc Porchet
>
> Look, a standard cable used in video can handle 100mhz of bandwidth. That
> is much more than any current video standard but maybe HDTV. The
> reason for the component outputs are for you people who want a pretty
> picture on your cheap monitors. If you edit in digital you don't have
> the crosstalk problem that you have with even the best analog video
> decks. If you are working digital all you need as input is what
> you are going to output anymore than that is going to be filtered
> off by the recording deck when you output. Maybe some of you video
> people should go back to school an get some electronics knowledge.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but D2 is a 14.xx MHz 8 bit video signal
(with a serial digital interface, the bit rate is 143 Mb/s). On the other
end you have D1 which is a 13.xx MHz 16 bit signal (The bite rate is 270 Mb/s)
Now guess which version will looks better a D1 or D2 signal( my guess and
my visual expericence tell me that D1 is far superior to D1).
PS : All the bitrate data are from the SMPTE 259M standard.
My conclusion : Digital 4Fsc (D2) is better than composite,
but Digital component (D1) is far superior to D2.
Eric J Fleischer
>>
>>Good question.
>
>
>Probably becasue their hardware interface is an IDE interface and
>the largest IDE's available are 1Gig (two 500Meggers slapped together),
>and since you can only ADDRESS TWO IDE's via conventional means, THEY
>SUGGEST 2 1GIG drives!
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________________________
> / Thomas W. Weeks | __ Commodore Amiga 500/030 40MHz\
>| Authorized C= Technician | /// 5M RAM, SyQuest 44M, 160M SCSI|
And also someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. I echo the
comment made a few days ago. If you don't know what you are talking about,
don't post foolish misinformation such as this.
FYI, the Flyer has three SCSI-2 controllers onboard. You can have drives
as big as you like, up to 21 separate drives.
<ELF> - Eric J Fleischer,MD - Dr Gandalf
DrGa...@cup.portal.com
Suraj Gulrajanai
> >
> >| I think the second drive is
> >| more likely to be used as the record drive so that you can play back the
> >| edited version without glitches and without losing a generation.
> This kinda negates the idea of a non-linear editor. The whole
> point is there IS no "edit master", only an EDL.
I wonder if the Flyer thing will be both PAL /NTSC or NTSC only? Since
most other offline editors allow input in PAL output in NTSC or vice
versa, if the Flyer were also able to convert back and forth between the
formats, this would allow us PAL users to use the Toaster in PAL.. Any
ideas??
thanks
Paul_-_...@cup.portal.com
>
>If you shoot with film (most of the good TV series are still done this way
>), you just need an off-line editor that output an KeyCode list and then
>you cut your original negatif.
>
>Even if you shoot in HDTV (Some european TV series are done this way),
>you can't use your non-linear online system (HDTV bitrate is 140 MB/s
>instead of 20 MB/s).
>
>
>--
>
>PS : forgive my bad English, I'm still trying to learn it
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Jean-Marc "JUMP" Porchet Phone : (41) 22-754-1758
>
>EMAIL : ...{uunet,rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmehq!cbmswi!dynam!jmpor
> or try mcsun!cbmswi!dynam!jmpor
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>'Simple things should be simple & complex things should be possible' Alan Kay
>
I only know of ONE television show that actually cuts film. (and actually
I'm not sure if they still do) The show is LA Law, and the way they would
edit is exactly as you said.. They edit on video with the edge numbers
burned in and then they conform the negative and transfer the negative back
to video. EVERY OTHER SHOW EDITS ON VIDEO... I don't care what format they
shoot on, they edit video. I know what I'm talking about here... Our
company owns a post production facility called The Loft and we edit
everything from TV series' to commercials to music videos. NOTHING is
edited on film for television.
Scott - Maxwell
>HRL> at Ceaser's Palace in Las Vegas, NV this afternoon. What follows (after
>HRL> my comments) is one of the press releases (probably the most
>HRL> significant one) from the press kit I received there.
>HRL> (Time permitting I'll type in and post the others as well)
>
>Did the mention whether there will be a PAL Version ?
>
AmigaMan is advertising a PAL Toaster. So guess there is or will soon be a
PAL Toaster.
>(hoping and praying...)
>Michael Wolf // Fido: 2:246/1115.10
> \X/ UUCP: Mike...@bonebag.tynet.sub.org
Joel Edward Swan
i
>tes:
>>>>Jeff Walkup (jwa...@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu) wrote:
>[Lots of unrelated stuff deleted]
>>
>>>BTW - from what I hear the 2 hard drives are used to do real-time
>>>transitions. This is something that not even our $200,000 Avid Media
>>
>>True, but it's using the Toaster to do the transitions. Not hard on the
>>other systems as well, if they are hooked to a switcher. No big deal.
>>
>>>Composer 8000 can do!
>>>
>>>Paul
>>> FilmSmith International Inc. * subsidiaries.
>>> *
>>>**************************************************************************
>>
>>-Joel
>>-------
>> ========================================================================
>> / Joel E. Swan....Pres./...Media Specialties, Ltd., Oak Forest, IL. USA /
>> / & Senior Producer..../...Moody Broadcasting Network, Chicago, IL. USA /
>>/ Portal ID: joeles..../...joe...@cup.portal.com / Cert. Dev. for CBM /
>>========================================================================
>
>true video bus (they achieve multilayer effects by rendering animations)
>you would need two complete systems hooked to a switcher, and some
>program to time/control both systems and the switcher. Lets see, two
>Avids and a switcher, or one Toaster Flyer system, which sounds more
>effective and inexpensive?
>
>Be seeing you...
>-Bill Mills
>
>Bill_...@CSUFresno.edu
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> (=====) Corinthian Media Services Video
> | | | (209)277-8150 Multimedia
> | | | 2562 N. Dewey Ave. Touch Screen Info Centers
> | | | Fresno, CA 93722 Production/Consultation
> | | |
> (=====) This is a guest account, CMS is not affiliated with CSUF
Bill, you may want to get your news reader fixed. I didn't say any of the
above statements and yet they were attributed to me - even with my sig.
I've talked about the flyer, but not using ANY of the word ascribed above.
:-)
Joel Edward Swan
a
>rd) writes...
>>In article <Cn182...@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>, mi...@sr.hp.com (Mike Powell)
>>wrote:
>>
>>> how does the video get _on_ to the HD in the first place?
>>>
>>Good question.
>>Hopefully Newtek has a few more announcements to make. If so, Harv
>>may have a lot of typing to do. ;-) We'll see.
>>
>>> Why the need for _two_ drives?
>>
>>Good question.
>
>
>Probably becasue their hardware interface is an IDE interface and
>the largest IDE's available are 1Gig (two 500Meggers slapped together),
>and since you can only ADDRESS TWO IDE's via conventional means, THEY
>SUGGEST 2 1GIG drives!
Gee, don't you read before you post? ;-) As has been stated a dozen times,
the flyer has 3 (count 'em) _SCSI_ buses.
Nicholas Merrill
ndom-access, and inserts are possible it is non-linear..
Bill Mills
It will not, the flyer is an NTSC device. It would be kind of pointless
to add PAL to it since it relies on the Toaster (output passes through
the Toaster) which is an NTSC only device. NewTek's point of view on
the PAL issue (or at leas what I gather of it) is that they don't need
to make PAL hardware because of Prime Image's high quality
NTSC/PAL/SECAM converyters (with a flyer system you would need only one,
hook it up to record your footage to HD, then re-configure it to convert
your output to PAL.
The following is quoted (without permission) from a Video Toaster User
Interview with Tim Jennison (NewTek President)....
Since we started showing the Toaster in the late 1980s, the demand for a
PAL Toaster has been as strong as the demand for an NTSC Toaster. The
way the Toaster works made it difficult for us to make an equivalent PAL
version, so for years we have been looking longingly at the PAL market.
When I first heard that Bill Hendershot (Prime Image president) was
attempting to solve that problem, I was skeptical....
[He goes on about broblems with common NTSC/PAL transcoding more than
I care to type about]
...However when I found out what he was really doing I got very excited
about it because with a clever frame interleaving technique he solved
the motion judder problem.
Richard
(Bill Mills) wrote:
>
>
> It will not, the flyer is an NTSC device. It would be kind of pointless
> to add PAL to it since it relies on the Toaster (output passes through
> the Toaster) which is an NTSC only device. NewTek's point of view on
> the PAL issue (or at leas what I gather of it) is that they don't need
> to make PAL hardware because of Prime Image's high quality
> NTSC/PAL/SECAM converyters
>
Thank goodness somebody else heard of the Passport 4000. How about
telling us more about it. Like how much?
Scott - Maxwell
>>
>>Good question.
>
>
>Probably becasue their hardware interface is an IDE interface and
>the largest IDE's available are 1Gig (two 500Meggers slapped together),
>and since you can only ADDRESS TWO IDE's via conventional means, THEY
>SUGGEST 2 1GIG drives!
>
> / Thomas W. Weeks | __ Commodore Amiga 500/030 40MHz\
>| Authorized C= Technician | /// 5M RAM, SyQuest 44M, 160M SCSI|
>| Full Time EET Student | __ /// IBM 286 Hardware Emulator, |
>| Texas A&M University | \\\/// Home Brew Audio A/D, HP48GX |
>| tww...@venus.tamu.edu | \XX/ "Only Amiga makes it possible!" |
/===============================================================\
J Eric Chard
>Look, a standard cable used in video can handle 100mhz of bandwidth. That
>is much more than any current video standard but maybe HDTV. The
>reason for the component outputs are for you people who want a pretty
>picture on your cheap monitors. If you edit in digital you don't have
>the crosstalk problem that you have with even the best analog video
>decks. If you are working digital all you need as input is what
>you are going to output anymore than that is going to be filtered
>off by the recording deck when you output. Maybe some of you video
>people should go back to school an get some electronics knowledge.
>
>ba...@admin1.memst.edu
>
So, still in school eh? Maybe you should go out into the
real world, and get some real world experience.
You're either an engineering or video student, or just incredibly
naive about the difference between theory and practice.
J Eric Chard
>composite. D1 is component digital, which is better.
I'm sure I could survive with just D2 quality.
>I don't understand why they aren't at least doing a
>component analog out version of the Toaster (BetaCam SP & MII). At least
>that would be useful.
No kidding! Maybe Tim Jennison is so big-hearted that he couldn't
stand the idea of putting all those 3rd party s-video guys out of biz.
Parts of the Toaster are very cool: Why they continue to output
composite only is beyond the ken of rational beings.
> DD-land: pockets@arcadia
John Benn
>I only know of ONE television show that actually cuts film. (and actually
>I'm not sure if they still do) The show is LA Law, and the way they would
>edit is exactly as you said.. They edit on video with the edge numbers
>burned in and then they conform the negative and transfer the negative back
>to video. EVERY OTHER SHOW EDITS ON VIDEO... I don't care what format they
>shoot on, they edit video. I know what I'm talking about here... Our
>company owns a post production facility called The Loft and we edit
>everything from TV series' to commercials to music videos. NOTHING is
>edited on film for television.
TWO: Babylon-5 edits on film.
Bill Mills
>In article <CnHoF...@zimmer.CSUFresno.EDU>, bil...@zimmer.CSUFresno.EDU
>(Bill Mills) wrote:
>>
>> It will not, the flyer is an NTSC device. It would be kind of pointless
>> to add PAL to it since it relies on the Toaster (output passes through
>> the Toaster) which is an NTSC only device. NewTek's point of view on
>> the PAL issue (or at leas what I gather of it) is that they don't need
>> to make PAL hardware because of Prime Image's high quality
>> NTSC/PAL/SECAM converyters
>>
>
>Thank goodness somebody else heard of the Passport 4000. How about
>telling us more about it. Like how much?
No problem. Prime image already had a single channel standards
converter/TBC card on the market. Since you would need 3 of these on an
A/B roll system, you'd be kinda stuck finding enough slots in an A400
with a toaster (2 imput conversions and one output conversion).
The Passport 4000 is Prime Image's answer. The list price is $6750 (I
will probably be retailing them around $5900-$6K). It is an external
box with 3 transcoders (two for Toaster Inputs, one for the Toaster's
output). There are also AT bus expansion slots for adding additional
transcoders for the remaining 2 Toaster inputs. Each TBC/Transcoder
channel has full proc-amp control either from the front panel, or via
software. They also provide either composite or Y/C (for SVHS/Hi8)
inputs and outputs (with user controlable 3 way comb filter). There is
also a strobe feature provided by the TBCs, and the PAL/NTSC transcoding
is supposed to be one of the best available, due to an innovative new
approach, that removes the motion 'judder' artifacts common to other
transcoding systems.
However, with a Flyer, the Pasport 4000 may be a bit of overkill. The
flyer really only needs a PAL->NTSC conversion when the video is
digitized, and then an NTSC->PAL conversion later, when playing out the
edited product. Thus a Prime Image single channel transcoder (if memory
serves there run somewhere between $1500 and $2000) could be used,
swapping cable configurations in the back between the digitizing and
editing steps.
So yes, there are even more ways to use a Toaster in a PAL environment
available now. One must still remember that the Toaster must run in an
NTSC Amiga as well, so that must be a part of the cost considerations
for someone looking to set up a PAL Toaster edit suite.
ba...@admin1.memphis.edu
You just said it again. It's the size of the signal not that it
is compontent that gives you quality. The guys selling you don't
want to tell you this because they make money selling you an
extra connection. D1 is better then D2 but it is because of the
amount of information recorded.
sa69...@ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg
>> composite. D1 is component digital, which is better. D2 is kinda like
>> "poorman's digital." I don't understand why they aren't at least doing a
>> component analog out version of the Toaster (BetaCam SP & MII). At least
>> that would be useful.
>>
>
> Look, a standard cable used in video can handle 100mhz of bandwidth. That
> is much more than any current video standard but maybe HDTV. The
> reason for the component outputs are for you people who want a pretty
> picture on your cheap monitors. If you edit in digital you don't have
> the crosstalk problem that you have with even the best analog video
> decks. If you are working digital all you need as input is what
> you are going to output anymore than that is going to be filtered
> off by the recording deck when you output. Maybe some of you video
> people should go back to school an get some electronics knowledge.
>
> ba...@admin1.memst.edu
Then some others may need to look up what is composite video and why there is
component video while they are still in school.
Anyway, I still find Newtek's claim of "D2" ambiguous. By this definition, I'm
having a "D1" Amiga back at home. If Toaster processes composite video
internally, then any transcoder will be a waste of money (less your setup has
only component out (but by then, you should be rich enough to get something
better)). Any clean YUV or RGB will be "composited". This doesn't sound
impressive.
P.S. As I'm nowhere near U.S. nor have I been to NAB, the impression I got from
the postings here is that Newtek made the claim on D2. please excuse me.
Kent Kalnasy
(Jean-Marc Porchet) wrote:
> Think about a "normal" 1 hour of storage system, with the flyer you will
> need 10 GB of harddisk space. at $1500 per Gb, that make $15k for the
> drives, $2500 for the toaster, $4000 for the flyer and let say $3000 for
> the amiga +monitor then the price of the system is: $25000 that's cheaper
> than a digital betacam, but not in the same price range as the toaster was
> when it was introduced.
I think you're quite a bit high on your pricing estimate for disk space.
These days, even given the recent turnaround in the downward pricing trend,
large hard disks are about 60 cents (US) per meg, so your 1GB drive will
run around $600. Of course, the high-spindle speed, latest technology
drives will be close to $1.00 per meg, but you pay for having the latest.
Anyway, your $15K drops to about $6K at today's prices.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kent Kalnasy (speaking only for me) kkal...@bvu-lads.loral.com
Loral Advanced Distributed Simulation Bellevue, Washington, USA
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kent Kalnasy
(WEEKS, THOMAS WILLIAM) wrote:
>In article <Cn182...@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>, mi...@sr.hp.com (Mike Powell)
>wrote:
>> Why the need for _two_ drives?
> Probably becasue their hardware interface is an IDE interface and
> the largest IDE's available are 1Gig (two 500Meggers slapped together),
> and since you can only ADDRESS TWO IDE's via conventional means, THEY
> SUGGEST 2 1GIG drives!
Not true. Micropolis was the first company to break 1GB for IDE drives
with their IDE version of the 2217, a 3.5" drive which provides 1.7GB of
storage. Many other companies are coming out or have come out with
similar (>1GB) drives.
Scott Ashdown
In a previous article, DrGa...@cup.portal.com (Eric J Fleischer) says:
>>>> Why the need for _two_ drives?
>>>
>>>Good question.
>>
>>
>>Probably becasue their hardware interface is an IDE interface and
>>the largest IDE's available are 1Gig (two 500Meggers slapped together),
>>and since you can only ADDRESS TWO IDE's via conventional means, THEY
>>SUGGEST 2 1GIG drives!
>
> And also someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. I echo the
>comment made a few days ago. If you don't know what you are talking about,
>don't post foolish misinformation such as this.
>
> FYI, the Flyer has three SCSI-2 controllers onboard. You can have drives
>as big as you like, up to 21 separate drives.
And who said that cool hardware is taking a backseat to software these days?!
Three SCSI-2 controllers. J*sus.
--
Scott Ashdown | Carleton University Transputer Lab
Computer Systems | ash...@sce.carleton.ca
Engineering Year IV | ac...@freenet.carleton.ca
Paul_-_...@cup.portal.com
They SHOOT on film... They don't EDIT on film. They CAN'T edit on film
because the graphics are transfered to VIDEO not FILM! How can you edit on
FILM if all of your special effects are on VIDEO???
If you doubt me, feel free to send email to the shows director/producer. If
you want his email address, email me and I'll send it to you. I don't want
to post it because I'm sure that he gets enough email as it is.
John Benn
>> TWO: Babylon-5 edits on film.
>>
>
>
>They SHOOT on film... They don't EDIT on film. They CAN'T edit on film
>because the graphics are transfered to VIDEO not FILM! How can you edit on
>FILM if all of your special effects are on VIDEO???
>
>If you doubt me, feel free to send email to the shows director/producer. If
>you want his email address, email me and I'll send it to you. I don't want
>to post it because I'm sure that he gets enough email as it is.
>
>Paul
My mistake. Take a downer.
