Team17 Leaving
D.J.Davies
to leave them well alone too ... and not buy AB3D (although I
want to).
I'll spend my money with companies such as OTM, Black Magic (Hi
Alex), Field of Visions (writers of doom clone Breathless)
This is the stance I have taken with Microprose.. When they
gave the lame excuse that the Amiga was'nt capable of Formula
One Grand Prix II (which I would have loved to buy)
It seems like other teams are writing full screen texturemapped
games for the Amiga (that work on a unexpanded A1200) with
320x200 1x1, 1x2, 2x1, 2x2. (1x1 on A1220/28 or A1230/50 only)
It seems like Microprose and Team17 are affraid of a little
more hard work. It's easy when you have a 46 mip 486 as your
base machine to write for.
What I can't understand is why not just increase profits by
writing for PC platforms AND Amiga. You could use all the
resources developed for the PC versions data in the Amiga. I.e.
pictures, textures, sounds, music, animations, rendered video
it's so easy to convert, if the code is written in C with
assembler for the core thats been hand crafted the work
involvled is minimal.
Microprose & it seems Team 17 just want to be in on the easy
money. If later on the two companies decide to return to the
Amiga market, their company image might be damaged irevocobly.
Of course it could go either way..... Would anyone at team17
sit up and take notice if for instance, almost every A1200
owner bought AB3D?
I Will buy AB3D, in the hope that Team17 will produce games not
only for the Amiga but PC, Mac, Jaguar, Playstation, & saturn
... so that everyone can enjoy Team17's great games.
Message to pirets, please If you are planning to HAVE AB3D then
buy it. don't steal it.
--
____ __ ____ ____ ____ _ _ ____ __ _ _ ____ ____ ___
( _ \ /__\ ( _ \( _ \( ___)( \( ) ( _ \ /__\( \/ )(_ _)( ___)/ __)
)(_) )/(__)\ ) / ) / )__) ) ( )(_) )/(__)\\ / _)(_ )__) \__ \
(____/(__)(__)(_)\_)(_)\_)(____)(_)\_) (____/(__)(__)\/ (____)(____)(___/
I.T. Technician, School of Education - Exeter University /\/\/\/\/\/\///OO,
Marcus 'Dr' Dee
>to leave them well alone too ... and not buy AB3D (although I
>want to).
There seems to be a twisted logic in this Darren. I'm not arguing, because
I'm a bloody minded bastard myself. But I always say, if you want
something, buy it (assuming that you can afford it). By not buying AB3D,
you will only be confirming our suspicions that there isn't sufficient
Amiga market.
>I'll spend my money with companies such as OTM, Black Magic (Hi
>Alex), Field of Visions (writers of doom clone Breathless)
I agree, companies who are still supporting the Amiga deserve support, and
thanks.
>This is the stance I have taken with Microprose.. When they
>gave the lame excuse that the Amiga was'nt capable of Formula
>One Grand Prix II (which I would have loved to buy)
This is just cognitive dissonance. To refuse to buy games by a software
house because your machine is not capable of running all their games is
ridiculous. It's this sort of attitude that causes companies to stop
supporting a machine.
>It seems like other teams are writing full screen texturemapped
>games for the Amiga (that work on a unexpanded A1200) with
>320x200 1x1, 1x2, 2x1, 2x2. (1x1 on A1220/28 or A1230/50 only)
It seems like it!!! Let's see em then. 320x200 1x1 texture mapped,
reasonable speed on a unex A1200. That'll be the day.
>It seems like Microprose and Team17 are affraid of a little
>more hard work. It's easy when you have a 46 mip 486 as your
>base machine to write for.
Sure. OK. We never did anything that was any good? None of our machines
pushed the Amiga at all. We weren't the first games company to stop
supporting 1/2 Mb A500s.
>What I can't understand is why not just increase profits by
>writing for PC platforms AND Amiga. You could use all the
>resources developed for the PC versions data in the Amiga. I.e.
>pictures, textures, sounds, music, animations, rendered video
>it's so easy to convert, if the code is written in C with
>assembler for the core thats been hand crafted the work
>involvled is minimal.
This simply isn't possible. 256 colour graphics created for the PC would
cause an A1200 to crawl. MIDI sound files from PC games can't be used on
the Amiga. Rendered Video can't be delivered on the Amiga because both
machine don't have a CD drive.
>Microprose & it seems Team 17 just want to be in on the easy
>money. If later on the two companies decide to return to the
>Amiga market, their company image might be damaged irevocobly.
We're not in it for our image. We're in it because we love computer games,
and because we want to produce great computer games. If we can't afford to
pay decent programmers decent wages to write for a platform we can't
support it. We're not going to do (hideously) cut down version, and we're
not going to release shovelware. Sorry!
>
>Of course it could go either way..... Would anyone at team17
>sit up and take notice if for instance, almost every A1200
>owner bought AB3D?
Yeah! We would. We really would.
>I Will buy AB3D, in the hope that Team17 will produce games not
>only for the Amiga but PC, Mac, Jaguar, Playstation, & saturn
>... so that everyone can enjoy Team17's great games.
>
>Message to pirets, please If you are planning to HAVE AB3D then
>buy it. don't steal it.
Thanks for the sentiments in both these closing paragraphs. I'm tired of
saying it, not because I'm tired of saying it, but because it's not a
pleasant thing to have to say.
I've given 6 years of my life to the Amiga (not just give, I've gotten a
lot out of it too. Some great friend, a few great discussions here on
c.s.a.g, a few brilliant shows, a few decent issues of my old rag, and a
lot of great games). It hurts to kiss it all goodbye, but at present,
there doesn't seem to be any option.
There'll never be anopther computer (unless the Mig comes back) that
unties people in the same way that the Amiga did. I have friends all
around the world now that I have met through Amiga Format and Team 17, all
sharing one thing in common. It shouldn't die, it shouldn't be overtaken
by that soul-less bag of bollocks - the PC.
>--
> ____ __ ____ ____ ____ _ _ ____ __ _ _ ____ ____ ___
> ( _ \ /__\ ( _ \( _ \( ___)( \( ) ( _ \ /__\( \/ )(_ _)( ___)/ __)
> )(_) )/(__)\ ) / ) / )__) ) ( )(_) )/(__)\\ / _)(_ )__) \__ \
> (____/(__)(__)(_)\_)(_)\_)(____)(_)\_) (____/(__)(__)\/ (____)(____)(___/
>
> I.T. Technician, School of Education - Exeter University /\/\/\/\/\/\///OO,
--
----------------------------------------------------
This email starred Marcus Dyson as Doc...@team17.com
----------------------------------------------------
Keurentjes
> only for the Amiga but PC, Mac, Jaguar, Playstation, & saturn
> ... so that everyone can enjoy Team17's great games.
If they manage to get it released before Breathless, I'll buy it as well.....
But as some may have noticed I'm not so sure anymore whether it'll ever be re-
leased..... Come on T17, perhaps it's time for a ETA update???
Niels
__ \\
/// Marco Keurentjes Musix, Midi. \\ Mail to:
__ /// --------------------------------------------*>
\\\/// Niels Keurentjes Guitar, Programming. // ma...@sandman.iaehv.nl
\/// //
James McArthur
: If Team17 leaves the Amiga market after AB3D, I'm half tempted
: to leave them well alone too ... and not buy AB3D (although I
: want to).
Go further then that; If T17 leave the Amiga after the release of AB3D
(if it is ever released) then I'll never buy one of their games ever
again on any other platform. And I'll tell all of my mates to do the same.
There arent very many of us doing this, but every little bit helps..
: I'll spend my money with companies such as OTM, Black Magic (Hi
: Alex), Field of Visions (writers of doom clone Breathless)
: This is the stance I have taken with Microprose.. When they
: gave the lame excuse that the Amiga was'nt capable of Formula
: One Grand Prix II (which I would have loved to buy)
: It seems like other teams are writing full screen texturemapped
: games for the Amiga (that work on a unexpanded A1200) with
: 320x200 1x1, 1x2, 2x1, 2x2. (1x1 on A1220/28 or A1230/50 only)
: It seems like Microprose and Team17 are affraid of a little
: more hard work. It's easy when you have a 46 mip 486 as your
: base machine to write for.
: What I can't understand is why not just increase profits by
: writing for PC platforms AND Amiga. You could use all the
: resources developed for the PC versions data in the Amiga. I.e.
: pictures, textures, sounds, music, animations, rendered video
: it's so easy to convert, if the code is written in C with
: assembler for the core thats been hand crafted the work
: involvled is minimal.
: Microprose & it seems Team 17 just want to be in on the easy
: money. If later on the two companies decide to return to the
: Amiga market, their company image might be damaged irevocobly.
Who would support a company that is only in it for the money - they'd have
the image that they just want to take your money and run.
: Of course it could go either way..... Would anyone at team17
: sit up and take notice if for instance, almost every A1200
: owner bought AB3D?
: I Will buy AB3D, in the hope that Team17 will produce games not
: only for the Amiga but PC, Mac, Jaguar, Playstation, & saturn
: ... so that everyone can enjoy Team17's great games.
Hear hear, I'll second that!
: Message to pirets, please If you are planning to HAVE AB3D then
: buy it. don't steal it.
Yeah pirates, if you are going to pirate something then pirate Microproses PC
games instead, or any other companies games that have deserted the Amiga
for the money of the PC. Hell, if they are on the PC only, then they must be
rich..
: --
Marcus 'Dr' Dee
(James McArthur) wrote:
>D.J.Davies (DJDa...@exeter.ac.uk) wrote:
>: If Team17 leaves the Amiga market after AB3D, I'm half tempted
>: to leave them well alone too ... and not buy AB3D (although I
>: want to).
>
>Go further then that; If T17 leave the Amiga after the release of AB3D
>(if it is ever released) then I'll never buy one of their games ever
>again on any other platform. And I'll tell all of my mates to do the same.
>There arent very many of us doing this, but every little bit helps..
If you take this to its logical conclusion, and take the same attitude
with all companies, it means you'll only ever be able to buy games by
companies who never supported the Amiga in the first place. Nice one.
We're getting the stick now for being one of the last companies to support
the Amiga.
Thanks a bundle D.J.
Marcus 'Dr' Dee
pp...@giaec.cc.monash.edu.au (Need Sleep) wrote:
>Hahaha this is a laugh. Kingpin, Bodyblows, Overdrive and all the other
special
>edition games T17 released arent shovelware? Go figure.
>
>
Go fuck yourself.
Peteroo
That's a really profound response, Marcus. The fellow had a point.
Consider: Body Blows, Body Blows Galactic, Ultimate Body Blows, Body Blows
AGA.
I suspect there's a shovel in there somewhere.
Joshua Galun
: We're getting the stick now for being one of the last companies to support
: the Amiga.
I have to agree with Marcus on this one. I'm not saying that you
have to like that Team 17 is leaving the Amiga, but remember that they
will be one of the last to leave. Ok, it is quite annoying when
companies like Psygnosis make their name and money on the Amiga and then
leave it once they hit it big; for me Team 17 doesn't quite seem as bad.
For one, Team 17 stayed with it longer, and I don't think, or atleast, I
don't perceive, that Team 17 made huge gobs of money off the Amiga.
Besides, at this points, it is extremely hard for companies to justify
being in such a small market, what with games costing more and more to
produce. Also remember that Team 17 has said that if Amiga sell well
they would come back, and that they want to, which is more than most
companies told us. Most simply said, "The Amiga is dead, you can't do
anything about it. What's that? You made us what we are? Too bad."
In comparison to that, Team 17 is heaven. :-/
/// Joshua Galun \\\
/// Business Manager for Creative Edge Software \\\
\\\/// Check out our WWW page at http://outland.cyberwar.com/~zool \\\///
\\\/ The Amiga, JRR Tolkien, and The Simpsons. 'Nuff said. \///
john enger
: reasonable speed on a unex A1200. That'll be the day.
I believe I read that a 1200 will do 2x2 fullscreen, or 1x1 with a 50Mhz
'030 or better - is this right? Its sounds more reasonable I think?
: >Of course it could go either way..... Would anyone at team17
: >sit up and take notice if for instance, almost every A1200
: >owner bought AB3D?
: Yeah! We would. We really would.
I'm gonna buy AB3D... I think a goodly proportion of Amiga owners are,
mainly because the `feel' of the AB games was so much better than Doom,
and thats what we're looking for. Doom was *fabulous* on a 'net mind...
Anyway, is there some magic sales figure that would encourage you to make
more Amiga games? Say, 50k sales one more game, 100k sales two more games, etc
Although I believe 10k sales is good on any platform these days (for the UK)?
(Remember `They sold a Million' on the Speccy and C64? Amy needs one them! )
Also, I've been wondering, what proportion of sales from Uk games companies
are overseas, roughly?
: There'll never be anopther computer (unless the Mig comes back) that
: unties people in the same way that the Amiga did. I have friends all
: around the world now that I have met through Amiga Format and Team 17, all
: sharing one thing in common. It shouldn't die, it shouldn't be overtaken
: by that soul-less bag of bollocks - the PC.
I agree - the Amiga is the only computer that provokes such a strong emotional
response. Its weird, its more like a favourite pet than a tool or a toy.
And it has a great story of how it came to be - maybe escom should get
someone to write a piece on `The Amiga Story' with the late great Padre et al,
so that new users can get the bug too... A major h/w upgrade would be nice
too! 8^)
========================= john....@bbsrc.ac.uk ===========================///===
A1200, 40 Mhz '030, 2+4Mb RAM, 80Mb HD, 1960 MSync Monitor. ///
-------------------------------------------------------------------------\XX/-----
Christian Mumenthaler
>Anyway, is there some magic sales figure that would encourage you to make
>more Amiga games? Say, 50k sales one more game, 100k sales two more games, etc
>
>Although I believe 10k sales is good on any platform these days (for the UK)?
>(Remember `They sold a Million' on the Speccy and C64? Amy needs one them! )
I'm not an expert in this, but as far as I remember from an interview
with some Amiga game producer, selling only 10'000 is very bad. 30k
is average, 50k is a hit (I'm talking about world wide sales, not only UK).
I hope somebody from Team 17 will be able to give us reliable numbers.
Remember that only a fraction (30%?) of the price you pay in the shops
actually goes to the software house and they have to pay disks, manual,
package, graphic artists, sound artists, one or more programmers for
a few months, update in the equipment, offices, P&R guys and
managers! ;-)
With 10k times a few bucks you go nowhere...
Regards,
Christian
Marcus 'Dr' Dee
<mu...@mol.biol.ethz.ch> wrote:
>en...@arco7.cc.bbsrc.ac.uk (john enger) wrote:
>
>>Anyway, is there some magic sales figure that would encourage you to make
>>more Amiga games? Say, 50k sales one more game, 100k sales two more games, etc
>>
>>Although I believe 10k sales is good on any platform these days (for the UK)?
>>(Remember `They sold a Million' on the Speccy and C64? Amy needs one them! )
>
>I'm not an expert in this, but as far as I remember from an interview
>with some Amiga game producer, selling only 10'000 is very bad. 30k
>is average, 50k is a hit (I'm talking about world wide sales, not only UK).
>I hope somebody from Team 17 will be able to give us reliable numbers.
Well, think aboui it this way.
If a game, like an Amiga game, sells for £25. The VAT man takes 17.5%
Leaving £20.63.
The retailer and distributor margin reduce this to around £9.28 coming
into Team 17.
But reproducing the disk and printing the box and manuals take around £2
of this.
Leaving £7.28
If we sell 10,000 games, that means that we get £72,800 coming in. Now
that sounds like a lot of money. But that has to pay the wages of one or
two coders and an artist for around a year, plus the musician. It has to
pay for all the magazine advertising at about £900 a page. It has to pay
for all the posters that you see in shops, and the wages of our press guy
who goes round the magazines demonstrating the games to them. It has to
pay the wages of the guy who designs the boxes. Our receptionist, our
marketing department.
10,000 games is (just about) enough to keep going with. But *only* just.
>Remember that only a fraction (30%?) of the price you pay in the shops
>actually goes to the software house and they have to pay disks, manual,
>package, graphic artists, sound artists, one or more programmers for
>a few months, update in the equipment, offices, P&R guys and
>managers! ;-)
>With 10k times a few bucks you go nowhere...
Erm,. I just said that :-)
You're right Chris!
It's so nice to see that someone out there understands that it's not about
big cars, long lunchbreaks and fat paycheques.
Need Sleep
says...
>
>>If Team17 leaves the Amiga market after AB3D, I'm half tempted
>>to leave them well alone too ... and not buy AB3D (although I
[Stuff Deleted]
>
>We're not in it for our image. We're in it because we love computer games,
>and because we want to produce great computer games. If we can't afford to
>pay decent programmers decent wages to write for a platform we can't
>support it. We're not going to do (hideously) cut down version, and we're
>not going to release shovelware. Sorry!
Hahaha this is a laugh. Kingpin, Bodyblows, Overdrive and all the other special
MARC EDWARD FORRESTER
>Hahaha this is a laugh. Kingpin, Bodyblows, Overdrive and all the other
>special edition games T17 released arent shovelware? Go figure.
Kingpin was the best you could expect from a tenpin bowling game,
and I think you'll find the Bodyblows series(?) has a fair following.
Overdrive.. Well, yes, that was crap, but one crap game does not
constitute shovelware.
Marcus 'Dr' Dee <Doc...@team17.com> replied:
>Go fuck yourself.
Or I suppose you could put it that way, yes.
john enger
: Leaving £20.63.
: The retailer and distributor margin reduce this to around £9.28 coming
: into Team 17.
: But reproducing the disk and printing the box and manuals take around £2
: of this.
: Leaving £7.28
Since you start out with the finshed package, and send it off to be
distributed, couldn't you take direct 'phone orders, and take a bigger cut?
Maybe an experiment would be in order? Like, put a direct order number on the
bottom of the advertising pages, so people can phone up and get the game
styraight from you? Employ an out-of-work student for 6 weeks to see the
response, and if the phone melts keep doing it. Sell the direct version
for a fiver less, say 20 quid. we'll pretend VAT is 20% (cos I dont want
to fiddle with a calculator.) that leaves 16 quid. take of 6 quid for the
box and postage and everything, and that leaves a tenner - 2.80 more per
copy, or 28k quid on 10k sales. AND I'm using exagerated costs... Or have I
forgotten something? If I have, just sell it full-price for an extra fiver...
But it can't be *that* simple, surely? Just a thought. 8^)
========================= john....@bbsrc.ac.uk =====================///===
A1200, 40 Mhz '030, 2+4Mb RAM, 80Mb HD, 1960 MSync Monitor. ///
-------------------------------------------------------------------\XX/-----
Need Sleep
says...
>
>In article <44e214$u...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au>,
>pp...@giaec.cc.monash.edu.au (Need Sleep) wrote:
>
>>Hahaha this is a laugh. Kingpin, Bodyblows, Overdrive and all the other
>special
>>edition games T17 released arent shovelware? Go figure.
>>
>>
>
>
Did I rattle your cage Marcus? Remember folks this is Team17's PR man. A wise
choice for choosing him I say. Get a clue, I remember reading one of your
earlier posts and you were saying that Kingpin's sales were dissapointing. Why?
Who the fuck wants to play bowling games? There is much more, better
and original software out there worth getting than crap like Kingpin.
Oh and one more thing Marcus, learn how to flame properly. I was on the net in
the days when you were kissing ass at Amiga Format. If you cant handle the fact
that some people dont agree with you then usenet ain't no place for you.
Marcus 'Dr' Dee
The public wanted them. The public bought them.
Your example only identifies two unique games. Body Blows and Body Blows
Galactic. And galactic has al new backgrounds and characters.
On one hand the people in here are complaining about the lack of AGA
games. Then when we release them (Bodyblows AGA) they are accusing us of
shovelware for releasing AGA games.
Ultimate was CD32 only. What are you saying, we shouldn't release CD32
versions of games we previously released on floppy Amiga? What about all
the people with CD32s?
All our SE games were *budget* re-releases. Where other software houses
just bunged out the same stuff again at a cheaper price, we re-mixed and
(where possible) impproved for budget re-release. Now we're getting
accused fo shovelwaring for it.
C'mon. Do me a favour.
Marcus 'Dr' Dee
enger) wrote:
>Since you start out with the finshed package, and send it off to be
>distributed, couldn't you take direct 'phone orders, and take a bigger cut?
>
>Maybe an experiment would be in order? Like, put a direct order number on the
>bottom of the advertising pages, so people can phone up and get the game
>styraight from you? Employ an out-of-work student for 6 weeks to see the
>response, and if the phone melts keep doing it. Sell the direct version
>for a fiver less, say 20 quid. we'll pretend VAT is 20% (cos I dont want
>to fiddle with a calculator.) that leaves 16 quid. take of 6 quid for the
>box and postage and everything, and that leaves a tenner - 2.80 more per
>copy, or 28k quid on 10k sales. AND I'm using exagerated costs... Or have I
>forgotten something? If I have, just sell it full-price for an extra fiver...
>
>But it can't be *that* simple, surely? Just a thought. 8^)
As soon as we do it, the shops that *do* stock our product point the
finger, say, "You're undercutting us!" and stop stocking our software.
We have to spend *far* more on advertising to make people aware of the
games... fewer people buy them, and... back (more or less) where we
started.
We were thinking of giving it a go (you might have seen the DPS advert in
Amiga Format. Somewhere at the bottom it said something like (and we have
to be careful about this wording) 'If you have difficulty getting these
games, you can buy them directly from us by Visa Access etc'. but the
phone didn't get warm. Then again, none of the games are actually released
yet :-/
James McArthur
: In article <44dc08$o...@pellew.ntu.edu.au>, jam...@morinda.it.ntu.edu.au
: (James McArthur) wrote:
: >D.J.Davies (DJDa...@exeter.ac.uk) wrote:
: >: If Team17 leaves the Amiga market after AB3D, I'm half tempted
: >: to leave them well alone too ... and not buy AB3D (although I
: >: want to).
: >
: >Go further then that; If T17 leave the Amiga after the release of AB3D
: >(if it is ever released) then I'll never buy one of their games ever
: >again on any other platform. And I'll tell all of my mates to do the same.
: >There arent very many of us doing this, but every little bit helps..
: If you take this to its logical conclusion, and take the same attitude
: with all companies, it means you'll only ever be able to buy games by
: companies who never supported the Amiga in the first place. Nice one.
Well, if thats the case then, as a stupid as it sounds, then thats the case.
After all, I happen to like DOOM, and id software never wrote a thing on the
Amiga. (AFAIK)
: We're getting the stick now for being one of the last companies to support
: the Amiga.
That was a good way of putting it.
: Thanks a bundle D.J.
: --
Richard Baguley
>>
>>Go fuck yourself.
>>
>
>Did I rattle your cage Marcus? Remember folks this is Team17's PR man.
I would suggest that if you're going to criciticise people in a public
forum like this you learn what the f***k *YOU* are talking about.
Marcus isn't our PR bloke. That's Alan Bunker's job. Marcus is the
head of the multimedia division and general odd-job man...
I'd definitely say that you Need Sleep. You're obviously ranting
through lack of it...
> A wise
>choice for choosing him I say. Get a clue,
I thin you should be the one getting a clue. You obviously know
nothing about this company except for what you've cooked up in your
own fevered imagination...
>I remember reading one of your
>earlier posts and you were saying that Kingpin's sales were dissapointing. Why?
>Who the fuck wants to play bowling games? There is much more, better
>and original software out there worth getting than crap like Kingpin.
Well, quite a lot of people obviously wanted to play bowling games,
but not as many as we'd hoped...
Obviously you are the fount of all knowledge about gameplay. What have
you ever written? Apart from a few rather banal and silly messages?
>Oh and one more thing Marcus, learn how to flame properly. I was on the net in
>the days when you were kissing ass at Amiga Format. If you cant handle the fact
>that some people dont agree with you then usenet ain't no place for you.
Kissing Ass? You must be joking. Kicking it maybye, but kissing it?
Naw. You obviously didn't even read the mag....
This is the problem with Usenet. It's full of people (like yourself)
who post before thinking. Marcus doesn't do that. If he tells you to
go fuck yourself you can be sure he means it....
Yuo are the one who is accusing us of producing shovelware. We are
certainly guilty of a few things, but putting stuff out purely for the
sake of making cash is definitely one of them. We produce games
because we think they are cool.
I really am amazed by this thread. Team 17 have worked hard to produce
great games on whatever platform and all we seem to get is grief. We
work bloody hard to produce good stuff. Sad little individuals like
yourself really make me wonder whether it's worth the effort...
Richard Baguley
Team 17
Keurentjes
In article <Doctor-2809...@spong.team17.co.uk> Doc...@team17.com (Marcus 'Dr' Dee) writes:
> In article <44e214$u...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au>,
> pp...@giaec.cc.monash.edu.au (Need Sleep) wrote:
>
> >Hahaha this is a laugh. Kingpin, Bodyblows, Overdrive and all the other
> special
> >edition games T17 released arent shovelware? Go figure.
> >
> >
>
> Go fuck yourself.
Now, now Marcus, that's not a subtle answer...... I don't agree with the original
poster, in the games he's mentioned, but I must admit I also feel the Alien Breed
idea was too exploited before AB3D was announced.... How many AB Special Editions,
Christmas packs, Easter collections and Bar Mitzwa gift boxes have there been???
Too many..... And well, in my humble opinion, that's called 'cashing in'....
Niels
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions expressed above are probable opposite to our employer's, but we don't
give a fuck 'coz we've never seen him on the Net anyway..... :)
__ \\
/// Marco Keurentjes Musix, Midi. \\ Homepage barely noticeable,
__ /// ---------------------------------------*> but can still be found at:
\\\/// Niels Keurentjes Guitar, Coding. // http://www.iaehv.nl/users/marco
\/// //
Keurentjes
> big cars, long lunchbreaks and fat paycheques.
>
> This email starred Marcus Dyson as Doc...@team17.com
> ----------------------------------------------------
Hey Marcus, you've ever considered a career as a rockstar??? If you wish you can
buy my 'leccy guitar for only £300!!!
Paul Chan
>Since you start out with the finshed package, and send it off to be
>distributed, couldn't you take direct 'phone orders, and take a bigger cut?
>
>Maybe an experiment would be in order? Like, put a direct order number on the
>bottom of the advertising pages, so people can phone up and get the game
>styraight from you? Employ an out-of-work student for 6 weeks to see the
>response, and if the phone melts keep doing it. Sell the direct version
>for a fiver less, say 20 quid. we'll pretend VAT is 20% (cos I dont want
>to fiddle with a calculator.) that leaves 16 quid. take of 6 quid for the
>box and postage and everything, and that leaves a tenner - 2.80 more per
>copy, or 28k quid on 10k sales. AND I'm using exagerated costs... Or have I
>forgotten something? If I have, just sell it full-price for an extra fiver...
>
>But it can't be *that* simple, surely? Just a thought. 8^)
By doing that, you`d probably alienate the shop guys who have to sell the game
at full price. Plus, Special Reserve and other mail order companies already
discount games to that degree (or less).
One method I would suggest for the distribution of AB3D-II (and a particularly
apt one if I don`t say so myself :) is to do what id software did with Doom -
go shareware and release 3 levels at a time on one disk - each with on-disk
instructions etc. to reduce packaging costs etc. You could release the first 2
or 3 levels as shareware/magazine coverdisk and then charge 3 pounds for each
extra "episode" or bunch of 3 levels delivered on one extra disk.
This method should easily earn you maximum money at low impact on the buyers
wallet - Pay as you play. Include the usual: "please pay your shareware fee or
we can`t afford to code the next levels without you" plea in the packaging.
You get cheap playtesting and feedback from the shareware version allowing you
to code a definitive release version with extras like multiplayer/network,
extra levels, hidden features, etc. by tweaking the code from the shareware
release.
Keurentjes
> >Go fuck yourself.
> >
>
> Did I rattle your cage Marcus? Remember folks this is Team17's PR man. A wise
> choice for choosing him I say. Get a clue, I remember reading one of your
> Who the fuck wants to play bowling games? There is much more, better
> and original software out there worth getting than crap like Kingpin.
>
> the days when you were kissing ass at Amiga Format. If you cant handle the fact
> that some people dont agree with you then usenet ain't no place for you.
I doubt whether you're on the net that long, for someone with your netiquette
probably gets kicked by his provider within half a year. Or at least I hope so.
Or I could just forward this message to postmaster@(insert provider)....
Now sod off and get manners before you get the whole csa.games to show YOU how
to flame properly. Or even better, how to MAILBOMB properly..... I happen to
have a 1Mb Mac ROM sitting on my HD.... Would you like to have it...? FROM
EVERYONE HERE???????
Niels
btw. Note that I left Marcus' remark quoted 'coz I like it so much.... :)
Joshua Galun
: Did I rattle your cage Marcus? Remember folks this is Team17's PR man. A wise
: earlier posts and you were saying that Kingpin's sales were dissapointing. Why?
: Who the fuck wants to play bowling games? There is much more, better
: and original software out there worth getting than crap like Kingpin.
He's the PR man? I thought he had a different position. Oh
well, either I'm wrong, or your an imbecile. I can live with that.
Also, just because bowling doesn't work very well on the computer (it is
not a good sport to make for computer) doesn't mean the game itself
wasn't good.
: Oh and one more thing Marcus, learn how to flame properly. I was on the net in
: the days when you were kissing ass at Amiga Format. If you cant handle the fact
: that some people dont agree with you then usenet ain't no place for you.
You're incredibly pathetic, you know that? Marcus Dyson is
practically the only employee of an Amiga company to come on Usenet, and
you flame him because you don't like what his company's doing. Not only
that, but your flame was based on "well I don't like you so your software
sucks." Good premise there.
Angus Manwaring
: I *honestly* don;t think it was a cash in. I believe AB-TA was a great
: conclusion tot he 2D series. But these are just my opinions. if you think
: we were cashing in, you were under no obligation to buy them.
Good point, well made. But really, you Team 17 chaps shouldn't get
too upset with people. On usenet they'll often be idiots disagreeing
with you, and sometimes they'll be idiots agreeing with you, but
there'll always be idiots. I worry when you get upset, that you'll
slam down the modem, and we'll lose the benefit of your presence,
because although I don't always agree with you, it wouldn't be the
same without you.
Erm.....bend like the willow in the wind....or something.
--
Cheers,
Angus.
unless you're alive you can't play,
an...@angusm.demon.co.uk and if you can't play.......
Need Sleep
>
>pp...@giaec.cc.monash.edu.au (Need Sleep) wrote:
>
>I would suggest that if you're going to criciticise people in a public
>forum like this you learn what the f***k *YOU* are talking about.
>Marcus isn't our PR bloke. That's Alan Bunker's job. Marcus is the
>head of the multimedia division and general odd-job man...
>
>I'd definitely say that you Need Sleep. You're obviously ranting
>through lack of it...
Ok fine, mistake on my behalf.But then having Marcus coming on Usenet and
plugging Team17 software isnt PR anyway?
>>I remember reading one of your
>>earlier posts and you were saying that Kingpin's sales were dissapointing.
Why?
>>Who the fuck wants to play bowling games? There is much more, better
>>and original software out there worth getting than crap like Kingpin.
>
>Well, quite a lot of people obviously wanted to play bowling games,
>but not as many as we'd hoped...
Yeah right. Sure you did.
>
>Obviously you are the fount of all knowledge about gameplay. What have
>you ever written? Apart from a few rather banal and silly messages?
>
Gameplay? There is only so much you can take of Kingpin after it becomes
boring as batshit.
Remember,I am the general public. I am the one who buys software. And yes , I
have got some Team17 software as well. So you would think I know what im
talking about. I played the Kingpin demo and it was shit and thus I never got
it. Does that make me a bad person for not supporting Team17 and the Amiga?
Cant you see it? you guys say "how can we support the Amiga after such
dissapointing sales", but if you release crap what do you expect?
Look at DMA design. They made such a killing out of Lemmings, cos it was
original and fun. If you go through the list of Team17 releases, there isnt
one original title in there. All rehashes of other games.
>Kissing Ass? You must be joking. Kicking it maybye, but kissing it?
>Naw. You obviously didn't even read the mag....
Nah I didnt, thats what I got a pile here since Issue 3. And you reckon I was
quick to pass judgement.
>
>This is the problem with Usenet. It's full of people (like yourself)
>who post before thinking. Marcus doesn't do that. If he tells you to
>go fuck yourself you can be sure he means it....
What do you expect? Coming on usenet and getting heaps of fan mail?
>
>Yuo are the one who is accusing us of producing shovelware. We are
>certainly guilty of a few things, but putting stuff out purely for the
>sake of making cash is definitely one of them. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Oh I get it now. Your just in it for the cash? Im sure everyone will love to
hear that.
>I really am amazed by this thread. Team 17 have worked hard to produce
>great games on whatever platform and all we seem to get is grief. We
>work bloody hard to produce good stuff. Sad little individuals like
>yourself really make me wonder whether it's worth the effort...
But thats the problem, It isnt good stuff. Most of it is utter trash. And if
you continue to release trash expect more grief.
Callum Chau
>Well, think aboui it this way.
>If a game, like an Amiga game, sells for £25. The VAT man takes 17.5%
>Leaving £20.63.
>The retailer and distributor margin reduce this to around £9.28 coming
>into Team 17.
>But reproducing the disk and printing the box and manuals take around £2
>of this.
>Leaving £7.28
>If we sell 10,000 games, that means that we get £72,800 coming in. Now
>that sounds like a lot of money. But that has to pay the wages of one or
>two coders and an artist for around a year, plus the musician. It has to
>pay for all the magazine advertising at about £900 a page. It has to pay
>for all the posters that you see in shops, and the wages of our press guy
>who goes round the magazines demonstrating the games to them. It has to
>pay the wages of the guy who designs the boxes. Our receptionist, our
>marketing department.
>10,000 games is (just about) enough to keep going with. But *only* just.
Do you not think that releasing further games for the Amiga which
'only just' cover costs is a worthwhile risk until the Amiga picks up
which it may well do.
Having certain software whethere it is games or applications or
whatever for a specific format is part of the incentive for purchasing
that computer and without it people will consider other options.
I can well understand that you want ever game to be a bestseller but
from a purely selfish point of veiw I want your company to continue
supporting the Amiga.
Callum Chau
Email 9403...@udcf.gla.ac.uk
James McArthur
: pp...@giaec.cc.monash.edu.au (Need Sleep) wrote:
: >>
: >>Go fuck yourself.
: >>
: >
: >Did I rattle your cage Marcus? Remember folks this is Team17's PR man.
: I would suggest that if you're going to criciticise people in a public
: forum like this you learn what the f***k *YOU* are talking about.
: Marcus isn't our PR bloke. That's Alan Bunker's job. Marcus is the
: head of the multimedia division and general odd-job man...
: I'd definitely say that you Need Sleep. You're obviously ranting
: through lack of it...
: > A wise
: >choice for choosing him I say. Get a clue,
: I thin you should be the one getting a clue. You obviously know
: nothing about this company except for what you've cooked up in your
: own fevered imagination...
: >I remember reading one of your
: >earlier posts and you were saying that Kingpin's sales were dissapointing. Why?
: >Who the fuck wants to play bowling games? There is much more, better
: >and original software out there worth getting than crap like Kingpin.
: Well, quite a lot of people obviously wanted to play bowling games,
: but not as many as we'd hoped...
: Obviously you are the fount of all knowledge about gameplay. What have
: you ever written? Apart from a few rather banal and silly messages?
: >Oh and one more thing Marcus, learn how to flame properly. I was on the net in
: >the days when you were kissing ass at Amiga Format. If you cant handle the fact
: >that some people dont agree with you then usenet ain't no place for you.
: Kissing Ass? You must be joking. Kicking it maybye, but kissing it?
: Naw. You obviously didn't even read the mag....
: This is the problem with Usenet. It's full of people (like yourself)
: who post before thinking. Marcus doesn't do that. If he tells you to
: go fuck yourself you can be sure he means it....
: Yuo are the one who is accusing us of producing shovelware. We are
: certainly guilty of a few things, but putting stuff out purely for the
: sake of making cash is definitely one of them. We produce games
: because we think they are cool.
: I really am amazed by this thread. Team 17 have worked hard to produce
: great games on whatever platform and all we seem to get is grief. We
: work bloody hard to produce good stuff. Sad little individuals like
: yourself really make me wonder whether it's worth the effort...
: Richard Baguley
: Team 17
If anyone needs to use profanities to get their point across, then they
are in need of sleep.
And if this topic has gotten you annoyed, then start making games that
people will buy - if all the people here say that they have high spec
machines, then give them a high-spec game; if it doesnt sell, then call
us all liars; if it does sell, then produce more.
Hell, you're leaving the Amiga scene anway, so why not go out with a bang?
(Sorry for not snipping this, but the UNIX's are going hay-wire, and I'm
stuck with no cursor controls :-< )
James McArthur
: In article <8123948...@dream.team17.co.uk>, bag...@team17.co.ukR says...
: >
: >pp...@giaec.cc.monash.edu.au (Need Sleep) wrote:
: >
:
: >forum like this you learn what the f***k *YOU* are talking about.
: >Marcus isn't our PR bloke. That's Alan Bunker's job. Marcus is the
: >head of the multimedia division and general odd-job man...
: >
: >I'd definitely say that you Need Sleep. You're obviously ranting
: >through lack of it...
: Ok fine, mistake on my behalf.But then having Marcus coming on Usenet and
: plugging Team17 software isnt PR anyway?
In an adverse sort of way, this discussion is giving T17 publicity..
.
.
: Remember,I am the general public. I am the one who buys software. And yes , I
: have got some Team17 software as well. So you would think I know what im
: talking about. I played the Kingpin demo and it was shit and thus I never got
: it. Does that make me a bad person for not supporting Team17 and the Amiga?
: Cant you see it? you guys say "how can we support the Amiga after such
: dissapointing sales", but if you release crap what do you expect?
: Look at DMA design. They made such a killing out of Lemmings, cos it was
: original and fun. If you go through the list of Team17 releases, there isnt
: one original title in there. All rehashes of other games.
:
Alien Breed? That was the best series of games that they ever released IMO,
and it was money well spent.
.
.
.
: >
: >This is the problem with Usenet. It's full of people (like yourself)
: >who post before thinking. Marcus doesn't do that. If he tells you to
: >go fuck yourself you can be sure he means it....
: What do you expect? Coming on usenet and getting heaps of fan mail?
Yeah, these are the last people supporting the Amiga; we are supposed to
kiss their rears, even if they release rubbish.
: >I really am amazed by this thread. Team 17 have worked hard to produce
: >great games on whatever platform and all we seem to get is grief. We
: >work bloody hard to produce good stuff. Sad little individuals like
: >yourself really make me wonder whether it's worth the effort...
: But thats the problem, It isnt good stuff. Most of it is utter trash. And if
Richard Baguley
>>I'd definitely say that you Need Sleep. You're obviously ranting
>>through lack of it...
>Ok fine, mistake on my behalf.But then having Marcus coming on Usenet and
>plugging Team17 software isnt PR anyway?
Marcus is, like any other person at Team 17, free to use the Internet
resources that have been provided. You'll find other Team 17 peoples
popping up in a wide range of groups. You know, the really wierd thing
is that Marcus isn't working on any Amiga projects, yet he's still in
here and you are still slagging him off. I think the fact that he's
still here says something. It says that he cares about what happens to
the Amiga even though he isn't directly involved...
>>Obviously you are the fount of all knowledge about gameplay. What have
>>you ever written? Apart from a few rather banal and silly messages?
>>
Still no answer to this question, I note...
>Gameplay? There is only so much you can take of Kingpin after it becomes
>boring as batshit.
>Remember,I am the general public. I am the one who buys software.
No, you are one (rather silly) individual wo occasionally buys
software. You are not the general public any more than I am a typical
Yorkshireman because I live in Yorkshire.
>And yes , I
>have got some Team17 software as well. So you would think I know what im
>talking about. I played the Kingpin demo and it was shit and thus I never got
>it.
Fine. That's your decision. Good for you. It's good to see that you
are actually capable of making a decision...
>Does that make me a bad person for not supporting Team17 and the Amiga?
>Cant you see it? you guys say "how can we support the Amiga after such
>dissapointing sales", but if you release crap what do you expect?
Sigh. The thing is the games we have released over the last year or
two have not been crap. Some of them haven't been as good as some we
have done, but they certainly weren't crap.
The situation is simple : they haven't sold as much as our games were
doing a couple of years back. This isn't down to the quality of the
games, so it must be to do with the market... Dealers aren't selling
much Amiga stuff whoever publishes it, so it's obviously not a problem
with us...
>Look at DMA design. They made such a killing out of Lemmings, cos it was
>original and fun. If you go through the list of Team17 releases, there isnt
>one original title in there. All rehashes of other games.
Oh, for flips sake. I think Marcus was right in his intiial reply to
your post. You have obviously decided that you know more than any of
us will ever know. you obviously know so much about gameplay that I'm
surprised you even bother posting in here. After all,we obviously know
so little and you know so much....
Fine. Let's look at DMA. What are they doing for the Amiga now?
Nothing. They were one of the first companies to get out of the Amiga
software market, and you are holding them up as such a great example
of the future of games?
>
>>Kissing Ass? You must be joking. Kicking it maybye, but kissing it?
>>Naw. You obviously didn't even read the mag....
>Nah I didnt, thats what I got a pile here since Issue 3. And you reckon I was
>quick to pass judgement.
I pass judgement as a reader since issue 5 and as an ex-staff writer
on Amiga Format and ex-editor of Amiga Shopper. I'm not overly
interested in your piles.
I know how Marcus works, and how much work he put into that mag
because he believed in the Amiga. To accuse him of "ass kissing" is
being grossly economic with the truth...
If you don't like his attitiude, that's your problem.
>>
>>This is the problem with Usenet. It's full of people (like yourself)
>>who post before thinking. Marcus doesn't do that. If he tells you to
>>go fuck yourself you can be sure he means it....
>What do you expect? Coming on usenet and getting heaps of fan mail?
No, but I do get sick of people who think it's allright to make all
sorts of accusations merely because we read this group. I don't see
people slagging off Jonathan Davies because he moved from Amiga Power
to PC Gamer or Steve Bradley because he moved over to the Playstation
mag from Amiga Format...
>>
>>Yuo are the one who is accusing us of producing shovelware. We are
>>certainly guilty of a few things, but putting stuff out purely for the
>>sake of making cash is definitely one of them. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Oh I get it now. Your just in it for the cash? Im sure everyone will love to
>hear that.
It was a tryping mistake. I'm sure you know what that is. Or perhaps
you have evolved beyond keyboards and designed your own direct neural
interface?
>But thats the problem, It isnt good stuff. Most of it is utter trash. And if
>you continue to release trash expect more grief.
No, the only trash around here is your posts. Kindly go forth and
multiply.
Richard Baguley
Head of The Games Room
Team 17 Software
Keurentjes
> Amiga Format. Somewhere at the bottom it said something like (and we have
> to be careful about this wording) 'If you have difficulty getting these
> games, you can buy them directly from us by Visa Access etc'. but the
> phone didn't get warm. Then again, none of the games are actually released
> yet :-/
Well, I can help you with why the phone didn't ring constantly: all English
customers have access to mail order companies who seem to sell the games
cheaper than you do (AB3D: you=£29.99 mailorder £19.99) and ppl from other
countries (like the Netherlands :) aren't going to call an English company,
for fear of rocketing phone bills..... (Still 12 customers before you....)
So that's where my mail came in..... Perhaps the next advert should say:
'If you have difficulty getting these games, mail: doc...@team17.co.uk'
Then you do have to allow Euro/Mastercard users to utilize the service as well
though, and you'd have to set a more realistic price point...... £19.99 sounds
great (price quoted from Post Haste's advert in CU Amiga).
And don't forget to get the game out before any others do (Breathless springs to
the mind.... ;) We're not rich (despite the A1230/50/8.... :-) and we can't
spend TOO much a month on games..... (subtle hint....)
btw. It's now 30-9-'95 23:37:34 CET..... Which means that you've still got one
hour and 20 minutes to release AB3D....... Or you guys forgot you promised that?
Niels
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions expressed above are probably opposite to our employer's, but we don't
Callum Chau
>>Obviously you are the fount of all knowledge about gameplay. What have
>>you ever written? Apart from a few rather banal and silly messages?
>Gameplay? There is only so much you can take of Kingpin after it becomes
>boring as batshit.
I have to agree. A bowling sim simply doesn't have enough variation
for it to have any sort of long life.
>Remember,I am the general public. I am the one who buys software. And yes , I
>have got some Team17 software as well. So you would think I know what im
>talking about. I played the Kingpin demo and it was shit and thus I never got
>it. Does that make me a bad person for not supporting Team17 and the Amiga?
>Cant you see it? you guys say "how can we support the Amiga after such
>dissapointing sales", but if you release crap what do you expect?
>Look at DMA design. They made such a killing out of Lemmings, cos it was
>original and fun. If you go through the list of Team17 releases, there isnt
>one original title in there. All rehashes of other games.
>
>>Kissing Ass? You must be joking. Kicking it maybye, but kissing it?
>>Naw. You obviously didn't even read the mag....
>Nah I didnt, thats what I got a pile here since Issue 3. And you reckon I was
>quick to pass judgement.
>>
>>This is the problem with Usenet. It's full of people (like yourself)
>>who post before thinking. Marcus doesn't do that. If he tells you to
>>go fuck yourself you can be sure he means it....
>What do you expect? Coming on usenet and getting heaps of fan mail?
>>
>>Yuo are the one who is accusing us of producing shovelware. We are
>>certainly guilty of a few things, but putting stuff out purely for the
>>sake of making cash is definitely one of them. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Oh I get it now. Your just in it for the cash? Im sure everyone will love to
>hear that.
Well it really is always the case but the thing is that supporters
don't want to hear that.
>>I really am amazed by this thread. Team 17 have worked hard to produce
>>great games on whatever platform and all we seem to get is grief. We
>>work bloody hard to produce good stuff. Sad little individuals like
>>yourself really make me wonder whether it's worth the effort...
>But thats the problem, It isnt good stuff. Most of it is utter trash. And if
>you continue to release trash expect more grief.
That is uncalled for. They produce good games although I have to say
not many kind of games that I like although i'm interested in Speirs
Legacy and AB3D.
Callum Chau
Email 9403...@udcf.gla.ac.uk
NIGEL HUGHES
> In article <Doctor-2809...@spong.team17.co.uk>, Doc...@team17.com
> says...
> >
> >pp...@giaec.cc.monash.edu.au (Need Sleep) wrote:
> >
> >>Hahaha this is a laugh. Kingpin, Bodyblows, Overdrive and all the other
> >special
> >>edition games T17 released arent shovelware? Go figure.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
> Did I rattle your cage Marcus? Remember folks this is Team17's PR man. A wise
> choice for choosing him I say. Get a clue, I remember reading one of your
> Who the fuck wants to play bowling games? There is much more, better
> and original software out there worth getting than crap like Kingpin.
Although I am sure you have been involved in many successful
games releases that have never been critised by some ambling half wit,
other have. I don't like Kingpin, not my style but I just didn't buy it, rather
than being rather blatently rude.
T17 PR man he may be, but I don't think he needed to impress you. I found
his comment rather succint myself.
> Oh and one more thing Marcus, learn how to flame properly. I was on the net in
> the days when you were kissing ass at Amiga Format. If you cant handle the fact
> that some people dont agree with you then usenet ain't no place for you.
Considering the increasing number of complaints about wasted bandwidth,
I would have thought it was a perfect flame. I am sure we have all bowed down
to you for your long net experience. I think rather than "he couldn't handle it"
it is more a case of "I can't be bothered dealing with complete prats". Of course
that is pure speculation.
A lot of us have been here a long time, I know I have. It does not make us
some kind of demi-gods. Just like you, Marcus is allowed to say what he
wants.
Nigel Hughes
NIGEL HUGHES
> In article <8123948...@dream.team17.co.uk>, bag...@team17.co.ukR says...
> >
> >pp...@giaec.cc.monash.edu.au (Need Sleep) wrote:
> >
>
> plugging Team17 software isnt PR anyway?
Rantity, rantity rant.
> >Well, quite a lot of people obviously wanted to play bowling games,
> >but not as many as we'd hoped...
>
> Yeah right. Sure you did.
My god, you are pathetic. Why lie? No bloody point. Sweet J.
> >
> >Obviously you are the fount of all knowledge about gameplay. What have
> >you ever written? Apart from a few rather banal and silly messages?
> >
>
> Gameplay? There is only so much you can take of Kingpin after it becomes
> boring as batshit.
In your opinion, mine too BUT I don't see any reason to dribble and rant about
it.
> Remember,I am the general public. I am the one who buys software. And yes , I
> have got some Team17 software as well. So you would think I know what im
> talking about. I played the Kingpin demo and it was shit and thus I never got
> it. Does that make me a bad person for not supporting Team17 and the Amiga?
> Cant you see it? you guys say "how can we support the Amiga after such
> dissapointing sales", but if you release crap what do you expect?
Nono. You are a member of the general public. You are not THE general
public. Yes your opinions count. However, in order to make onesself heard,
one usually constructs a more careful comment. You're ranting, therefore
no-one is taking your point on board.
> Look at DMA design. They made such a killing out of Lemmings, cos it was
> original and fun. If you go through the list of Team17 releases, there isnt
> one original title in there. All rehashes of other games.
Well T17 are not, and have NEVER claimed to be, the last bastion of originality.
They take a genre and produce the best possible version they can. An admirable
cause. Project X was far and away the best shoot-em-up I have played.
Alien Breed (apart from number 2 IMHO) was an excellent series of gauntlet
type games.
> Nah I didnt, thats what I got a pile here since Issue 3. And you reckon I was
> quick to pass judgement.
I also presumed you just looked at the pictures.
> Oh I get it now. Your just in it for the cash? Im sure everyone will love to
> hear that.
Richard made a typing mistake because he was p*ssed at you. Do you have
to be SO purile as to pick it out like that. Anybody could have seen what
he meant. Mind you, you're not anyone, you're THE general public!
> But thats the problem, It isnt good stuff. Most of it is utter trash. And if
> you continue to release trash expect more grief.
Stop it. Stop stop stop. You're far too tedius. Not funny, not interesting.
There are only a couple of T17 games I really like, and consequently own,
but I see no reason to slag them off in the infintile way you do.
Nigel Hughes
D.J.Davies
> >If Team17 leaves the Amiga market after AB3D, I'm half tempted
> >to leave them well alone too ... and not buy AB3D (although I
> >want to).
>
> I'm a bloody minded bastard myself. But I always say, if you want
> something, buy it (assuming that you can afford it). By not buying AB3D,
> you will only be confirming our suspicions that there isn't sufficient
> Amiga market.
True, I am a bloody minded bastard.... And you'll be pleased to
know that I intend to buy AB3D.
>
> >I'll spend my money with companies such as OTM, Black Magic (Hi
> >Alex), Field of Visions (writers of doom clone Breathless)
>
> I agree, companies who are still supporting the Amiga deserve support, and
> thanks.
>
> >This is the stance I have taken with Microprose.. When they
> >gave the lame excuse that the Amiga was'nt capable of Formula
> >One Grand Prix II (which I would have loved to buy)
>
> This is just cognitive dissonance. To refuse to buy games by a software
> house because your machine is not capable of running all their games is
> ridiculous. It's this sort of attitude that causes companies to stop
> supporting a machine.
The company is full of lame programmers, If they were'nt I'd
buy their products... it's as simple as that... I am the
consumer I have the money , and I'll buy what I want....
I don't want another scrolling shoot em up.. or little people
scroller.. I want impressive games from programmers that can
clearly write for the platform - and arn't just bad ports from
PC. Look at SimCity 2000 from Maxis as an example of a great
product killed by morons that can't program.
>
> >It seems like other teams are writing full screen texturemapped
> >games for the Amiga (that work on a unexpanded A1200) with
> >320x200 1x1, 1x2, 2x1, 2x2. (1x1 on A1220/28 or A1230/50 only)
>
> It seems like it!!! Let's see em then. 320x200 1x1 texture mapped,
> reasonable speed on a unex A1200. That'll be the day.
If you read the above it says 1x1 on A1220/28 or A1230/50 ONLY
the limit on Unexpanded machines is 320x200 2x2......
with a frame rate of 15 - 18 fps
>
> >It seems like Microprose and Team17 are affraid of a little
> >more hard work. It's easy when you have a 46 mip 486 as your
> >base machine to write for.
>
> Sure. OK. We never did anything that was any good? None of our machines
> pushed the Amiga at all. We weren't the first games company to stop
> supporting 1/2 Mb A500s.
I did'nt say T17 games were bad, they are great. Why not
continue pushing the bounderies
The Amiga has'nt yet been pushed to it's limit... Especailly
A1230/50`s, I would just like to see T17 produce some more
great games.
>
> >What I can't understand is why not just increase profits by
> >writing for PC platforms AND Amiga. You could use all the
> >resources developed for the PC versions data in the Amiga. I.e.
> >pictures, textures, sounds, music, animations, rendered video
> >it's so easy to convert, if the code is written in C with
> >assembler for the core thats been hand crafted the work
> >involvled is minimal.
>
> This simply isn't possible. 256 colour graphics created for the PC would
> cause an A1200 to crawl. MIDI sound files from PC games can't be used on
> the Amiga. Rendered Video can't be delivered on the Amiga because both
> machine don't have a CD drive.
What!? What are you on! For stills 256 cols is fine... In
game why not just use a blitterscreen technique or the new very
fast c2p techniques ... anyway it wouldn't take long to dither
a games set of graphics down to 128 cols or 64. many PC games
dont use all of 256 cols anyhow!!!!
Midi files cannot be used stright away from the file..... but
It's extreamly easy to convert to tracker.
On the subject of video - I converted a PC 320x240 24 bit Anim
of 100 frames -to Ham8 This played as fast as our 486DX50.
To cap it all the Amiga and PC cd formats are the same.
^^
(Rendered Video cant be delivered on the Amiga because both
machine don`t have a cd drive)????? - what the fuck does that
mean?
>
> >Microprose & it seems Team 17 just want to be in on the easy
> >money. If later on the two companies decide to return to the
> >Amiga market, their company image might be damaged irevocobly.
>
> We're not in it for our image. We're in it because we love computer games,
> and because we want to produce great computer games. If we can't afford to
> pay decent programmers decent wages to write for a platform we can't
> support it. We're not going to do (hideously) cut down version, and we're
> not going to release shovelware. Sorry!
So what your saying is that you can't make any money out of the
current Amiga market.... Numbers of 1200's are small I suppose,
but why now... why not just wait to the end of Christmas to see
how escoms machines sell.
>
> >
> >Of course it could go either way..... Would anyone at team17
> >sit up and take notice if for instance, almost every A1200
> >owner bought AB3D?
>
> Yeah! We would. We really would.
>
Good, Good.... I plan to buy AB3D. and hope you stay in the
market.
> >I Will buy AB3D, in the hope that Team17 will produce games not
> >only for the Amiga but PC, Mac, Jaguar, Playstation, & saturn
> >... so that everyone can enjoy Team17's great games.
> >
> >Message to pirets, please If you are planning to HAVE AB3D then
> >buy it. don't steal it.
>
> Thanks for the sentiments in both these closing paragraphs. I'm tired of
> saying it, not because I'm tired of saying it, but because it's not a
> pleasant thing to have to say.
>
> I've given 6 years of my life to the Amiga (not just give, I've gotten a
> lot out of it too. Some great friend, a few great discussions here on
> c.s.a.g, a few brilliant shows, a few decent issues of my old rag, and a
> lot of great games). It hurts to kiss it all goodbye, but at present,
> there doesn't seem to be any option.
> There'll never be anopther computer (unless the Mig comes back) that
> unties people in the same way that the Amiga did. I have friends all
> around the world now that I have met through Amiga Format and Team 17, all
> sharing one thing in common. It shouldn't die, it shouldn't be overtaken
> by that soul-less bag of bollocks - the PC.
Ah! spoken like a true Amiga owner (once!) ... Basically it all
boils down to money .... By all means make as much money as you
can writing for the PC, I wish you all the luck in the world.
But I still can't understand that you have to drop the Amiga.
I don't think if you make severe amounts of cash from the PC
that it would cost TOO MUCH - to develop the same product (with
lots of shared resources for the Amiga too.)
good luck in your newly chosen market.
> >--
> > ____ __ ____ ____ ____ _ _ ____ __ _ _ ____ ____ ___
> > ( _ \ /__\ ( _ \( _ \( ___)( \( ) ( _ \ /__\( \/ )(_ _)( ___)/ __)
> > )(_) )/(__)\ ) / ) / )__) ) ( )(_) )/(__)\\ / _)(_ )__) \__ \
> > (____/(__)(__)(_)\_)(_)\_)(____)(_)\_) (____/(__)(__)\/ (____)(____)(___/
> >
> > I.T. Technician, School of Education - Exeter University /\/\/\/\/\/\///OO,
>
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------
> This email starred Marcus Dyson as Doc...@team17.com
> ----------------------------------------------------
--
____ __ ____ ____ ____ _ _ ____ __ _ _ ____ ____ ___
( _ \ /__\ ( _ \( _ \( ___)( \( ) ( _ \ /__\( \/ )(_ _)( ___)/ __)
)(_) )/(__)\ ) / ) / )__) ) ( )(_) )/(__)\\ / _)(_ )__) \__ \
(____/(__)(__)(_)\_)(_)\_)(____)(_)\_) (____/(__)(__)\/ (____)(____)(___/
I.T. Technician, School of Education - Exeter University /\/\/\/\/\/\///OO,
Marcus 'Dr' Dee
>(Rendered Video cant be delivered on the Amiga because both
>machine don`t have a cd drive)????? - what the fuck does that
>mean?
Means I was thinking faster then I can type :-)
both = most.
Sorry!
Marcus 'Dr' Dee
enger) wrote:
>I *can* see how that would be a problem, but surely the `mail-order already
>does it' argument carries some weight? And you could always sell at retail,
>and just make do with a bigger cut from each sale. 8^) Of course, people
>aren't gonna exactly rush to the phone for that I guess...
Yeah, but though the retailers get pissed of about mail order, they know
that the MO guys are paying the same distributor prices as they are, just
running with lower costs and lower margins.
The original publisher on the other hand isn't... And the retailers
would take an entirely different view!
>Maybe the shareware route would be worth a try? Put out a level editor for
>one of your more popular releases, such as AB3D (yeah! do it!) or Worms or
>whatever, with a shareware fee of 5 or 10 quid. Post it to aminet, stick it
>on coverdisks, whatever, and see what happens. If it works, its another
>possible marketing route, and if it doesn't, so what, you never expected it
>to in the first place! ;^)
I'm with you on this one. If you guys really believe that there are enough
people wanting an AB3D level editor, email Spa...@team17.com and ask him
for one. If enough of you mail, he may well get Andy to do one.
And the direct sell to owners of AB3D for £9.99 sounds good to me!
>I think I may be hoping a bit here, but hey its monday morning and I can't
>think properly on mondays!!!
>
>Oh yeah, there's alot of crap in this thread about T17, and I'd just like to
>say that I'm on your side. (creep!) 8^) There are a *couple* of your
>releases I think were... optimistic, but hey, I don't buy *all* your games
>anyway, just the ones that interest me. If people don't like your games,
>they don't *have* to buy them. Erm... Release AB3D NOW!!!
We're not asking for blind support, and we're not asking everyone to like
everything we do (God knows, I don't!!!). But, by and large, most of the
things we have done were pretty good, and a few of them were fucking
superb.
I don't care whether people 'support' or 'dis' us as long as the criticism
(or praise) are justified and reasonable. I'm not here to PR Team 17 as
our Antipodean friend suggests. I'm just as happy to PR Gloom (Go out and
buy it, Mark Sibly's a top bloke and its a top game!!!) or Virocop (Steve
Turner and Andy Braybrook are top blokes too, and IT'S a great game) or
Colonization (Never met Syd Meyer) or Super Skid Marks (Simon Armstrong -
Top bloke Etc. Etc...)
I'm here cos I give a shit about the Amiga. I can't help it if the company
I work for (who I came to work for because of how much they supported the
Amiga) are thinking about stopping doing so.
And I'm not whinging about the bad stuff some people are saying about Team
17. If I was in your position, I might say the same things, hell, we can
take it.
When the dust settles down, I hope the Amiga recovers, I hope that Team 17
are tempted back to it. I hope other people, like Mark Sibly, keep
creating great games for the Amiga. I hope if any of you buy a
PlayStation, you buy some of our games (if you like them) and I hope you
buy some of Mark Sibly's, and Andy Braybrook's and Simon Armstrong's (if
they ever do PlayStation stuff). Oh, anmd most of all... I hope none of
you ever buy a PC :-)
Best regards
Marcus 'Dr' Dee
>btw. It's now 30-9-'95 23:37:34 CET..... Which means that you've still got one
>hour and 20 minutes to release AB3D....... Or you guys forgot you
promised that?
>
>
> Niels
I posted the other day explaining what happened to AB3D (last minute
memory problem and all that). But I haven't seen the post on my own news
server, so I doubt that it got to any of yours!!!
Anyway. It has now gone to duplication! It takes about 10 days to get into
the shops here in the UK, a little longer elsewhere. Late - yes! But it's
on its way.
Enjoy. I'll be waiting here for the flames. Send any kudos to Andy Clitheroe!
john enger
: enger) wrote:
: >Since you start out with the finshed package, and send it off to be
: >distributed, couldn't you take direct 'phone orders, and take a bigger cut?
: >
: >Maybe an experiment would be in order? Like, put a direct order number on the
: >bottom of the advertising pages, so people can phone up and get the game
: >styraight from you? Employ an out-of-work student for 6 weeks to see the
: >response, and if the phone melts keep doing it. Sell the direct version
: >for a fiver less, say 20 quid. we'll pretend VAT is 20% (cos I dont want
: >to fiddle with a calculator.) that leaves 16 quid. take of 6 quid for the
: >box and postage and everything, and that leaves a tenner - 2.80 more per
: >copy, or 28k quid on 10k sales. AND I'm using exagerated costs... Or have I
: >forgotten something? If I have, just sell it full-price for an extra fiver...
: >
: >But it can't be *that* simple, surely? Just a thought. 8^)
: As soon as we do it, the shops that *do* stock our product point the
: finger, say, "You're undercutting us!" and stop stocking our software.
I *can* see how that would be a problem, but surely the `mail-order already
does it' argument carries some weight? And you could always sell at retail,
and just make do with a bigger cut from each sale. 8^) Of course, people
aren't gonna exactly rush to the phone for that I guess...
Maybe the shareware route would be worth a try? Put out a level editor for
one of your more popular releases, such as AB3D (yeah! do it!) or Worms or
whatever, with a shareware fee of 5 or 10 quid. Post it to aminet, stick it
on coverdisks, whatever, and see what happens. If it works, its another
possible marketing route, and if it doesn't, so what, you never expected it
to in the first place! ;^)
I think I may be hoping a bit here, but hey its monday morning and I can't
think properly on mondays!!!
Oh yeah, there's alot of crap in this thread about T17, and I'd just like to
say that I'm on your side. (creep!) 8^) There are a *couple* of your
releases I think were... optimistic, but hey, I don't buy *all* your games
anyway, just the ones that interest me. If people don't like your games,
they don't *have* to buy them. Erm... Release AB3D NOW!!!
I think that'd better do...
D.J.Davies
> In article <44dc08$o...@pellew.ntu.edu.au>, jam...@morinda.it.ntu.edu.au
> (James McArthur) wrote:
>
> >D.J.Davies (DJDa...@exeter.ac.uk) wrote:
> >: to leave them well alone too ... and not buy AB3D (although I
> >: want to).
> >
> >(if it is ever released) then I'll never buy one of their games ever
> >again on any other platform. And I'll tell all of my mates to do the same.
> >There arent very many of us doing this, but every little bit helps..
>
>
> If you take this to its logical conclusion, and take the same attitude
> with all companies, it means you'll only ever be able to buy games by
> companies who never supported the Amiga in the first place. Nice one.
>
> the Amiga.
>
Read the whole post.... I am discussing wheather it is possible
for a company to make products for the pc AND port them to all
platforms once the design work and resources are made.
I think it is'nt on to make software for the PC ONLY!
It's only because I think that T17 are a nice talented bunch of
programmers, That I am rattled when they suddenly announce they
arn't going to make games for the Amiga any more.
I am advocating everyone to buy AB3D if you want more games
like it - it's as simple as that. Marcus has said that as a
Company T17 - will take notice if all A1200 owners buy this
game. And after all - it is a good game!
Good sales will make a difference if we want T17 to stay. Which
is why I for one will be buying AB3D..
>
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------
> This email starred Marcus Dyson as Doc...@team17.com
> ----------------------------------------------------
D.J.Davies
> : the Amiga.
>
> I have to agree with Marcus on this one. I'm not saying that you
> have to like that Team 17 is leaving the Amiga, but remember that they
> will be one of the last to leave. Ok, it is quite annoying when
> companies like Psygnosis make their name and money on the Amiga and then
> leave it once they hit it big; for me Team 17 doesn't quite seem as bad.
> For one, Team 17 stayed with it longer, and I don't think, or atleast, I
> don't perceive, that Team 17 made huge gobs of money off the Amiga.
> Besides, at this points, it is extremely hard for companies to justify
> being in such a small market, what with games costing more and more to
> produce. Also remember that Team 17 has said that if Amiga sell well
> they would come back, and that they want to, which is more than most
> companies told us. Most simply said, "The Amiga is dead, you can't do
> anything about it. What's that? You made us what we are? Too bad."
>
D.J>
I aggree with most of what you say although I don`t think we
should give up on such a great platform. I can't think of
another mahcine that I wan't to use.
And I applaud T17 for Staying in the market as long as they
have. I know lots of publishers are thinking of leaving. But
this becomes a downward spiral. The more companies leave, the
less people have quality software to buy, sales reduce and more
companies leave.
It's just very sad... especially if you know that a lot of the
products people want (Daytona - Virtual fighter etc...) is
possible on the Amiga.
On A1230/50 machines Daytona is possible - and will work with
blitterscreen techniques on an unexpanded machine at 10-12 fps
with a reduced screen size.
This is just what Happens with doom, the worse your machine the
worse the game.... Go and try and play Doom II on a 386sx16 if
you don't belive me.
I'm just about to buy a A1230/50 board and want some games for
it.
Hell, if I ran Shapshifter with a graphics card I can run Dark
Forces on CD. If I can do it with the emulator - I can do it
without
> In comparison to that, Team 17 is heaven. :-/
>
>
>
> /// Joshua Galun \\\
> /// Business Manager for Creative Edge Software \\\
> \\\/// Check out our WWW page at http://outland.cyberwar.com/~zool \\\///
> \\\/ The Amiga, JRR Tolkien, and The Simpsons. 'Nuff said. \///
>
Paul Shandi
M'd> something, buy it (assuming that you can afford it). By not buying AB3D,
M'd> you will only be confirming our suspicions that there isn't sufficient
M'd> Amiga market.
I've always wondered: what would happen if a company like Team 17 sold
their software via Mail-Order ONLY, and each purchaser's name was encoded
into the program? Surely this would scare some would-be piraters into not
spreading the game?
Regards, Paul (paul_...@comlink.mpx.com.au)
__
__/// Windows95: A multitasking 32-bit Operating System. In other words, I
\XX/ guess you could call it the first "Amiga Emulator" for the IBM-PC...
Paul Shandi
M'd> that sounds like a lot of money. But that has to pay the wages of one or
M'd> two coders and an artist for around a year, plus the musician. It has to
M'd> pay for all the magazine advertising at about #900 a page. It has to pay
M'd> for all the posters that you see in shops, and the wages of our press guy
M'd> who goes round the magazines demonstrating the games to them. It has to
M'd> pay the wages of the guy who designs the boxes. Our receptionist, our
M'd> marketing department.
Hmmm... well, do you REALLY need posters in shops for a start? I live in
Australia and the only advertising I've seen for AB3D is in UK mags. So
what good does money spent on posters do for me? Nothing.
Why do you need to hire a press guy? Again, I'm buying AB3D based on the
aforementioned UK advertisements. If the press guy demonstrates the game
to magazines, so what? Sure, they give a review, but I don't care. I've
read the blurb in your mag ad, I can see the screenshots. That's all I
need. So the press guy is again more wasted money.
This is just my own personal speculation, and no offence is intended. I'm
just airing my thoughts, and I think Team 17 have done GREAT things for the
Amiga. I sincerely hope you keep it up! :)
D.J.Davies
> : Leaving £20.63.
>
> : The retailer and distributor margin reduce this to around £9.28 coming
> : into Team 17.
>
> : But reproducing the disk and printing the box and manuals take around £2
> : of this.
>
> : Leaving £7.28
>
> distributed, couldn't you take direct 'phone orders, and take a bigger cut?
>
> Maybe an experiment would be in order? Like, put a direct order number on the
> bottom of the advertising pages, so people can phone up and get the game
> styraight from you? Employ an out-of-work student for 6 weeks to see the
> response, and if the phone melts keep doing it. Sell the direct version
> for a fiver less, say 20 quid. we'll pretend VAT is 20% (cos I dont want
> to fiddle with a calculator.) that leaves 16 quid. take of 6 quid for the
> box and postage and everything, and that leaves a tenner - 2.80 more per
> copy, or 28k quid on 10k sales. AND I'm using exagerated costs... Or have I
> forgotten something? If I have, just sell it full-price for an extra fiver...
>
> But it can't be *that* simple, surely? Just a thought. 8^)
I'll send 30-40 pound myself to T17 per game if it means I get
qualty software. hell if there is less of a market for the
Amiga why not just put the price up to compensate. or am I
oversimplifying things.
I'll spend 40 pounds on a game like a tmap f1gp2, or daytona.
For my new A1230/50
>
> ========================= john....@bbsrc.ac.uk =====================///===
> A1200, 40 Mhz '030, 2+4Mb RAM, 80Mb HD, 1960 MSync Monitor. ///
> -------------------------------------------------------------------\XX/-----
D.J.Davies
> In article <44gkml$j...@is.bbsrc.ac.uk>, en...@arco7.cc.bbsrc.ac.uk (john
> enger) wrote:
>
> >distributed, couldn't you take direct 'phone orders, and take a bigger cut?
> >
> >Maybe an experiment would be in order? Like, put a direct order number on the
> >bottom of the advertising pages, so people can phone up and get the game
> >styraight from you? Employ an out-of-work student for 6 weeks to see the
> >response, and if the phone melts keep doing it. Sell the direct version
> >for a fiver less, say 20 quid. we'll pretend VAT is 20% (cos I dont want
> >to fiddle with a calculator.) that leaves 16 quid. take of 6 quid for the
> >box and postage and everything, and that leaves a tenner - 2.80 more per
> >copy, or 28k quid on 10k sales. AND I'm using exagerated costs... Or have I
> >forgotten something? If I have, just sell it full-price for an extra fiver...
> >
> >But it can't be *that* simple, surely? Just a thought. 8^)
>
> finger, say, "You're undercutting us!" and stop stocking our software.
>
> games... fewer people buy them, and... back (more or less) where we
> started.
>
> We were thinking of giving it a go (you might have seen the DPS advert in
> Amiga Format. Somewhere at the bottom it said something like (and we have
> to be careful about this wording) 'If you have difficulty getting these
> games, you can buy them directly from us by Visa Access etc'. but the
> phone didn't get warm. Then again, none of the games are actually released
> yet :-/
I applauded that little line. And will send off my cheque for
AB3D when it is released.
Some of the difficulty is in actually being able to buy any
companies games..... I live in exeter. There is only one shop
that sells Amiga games. Future Zone. But this is probably the
smallest selection of games anyone has seen. they are all old,
being pushed to the back of the shop. Except Gloom of course, I
nearly fell off my mushroom. I did buy a copy.
If it has'nt got the word Microsoft in it the Games stockists
don't want it. It's either old 8bit console junk... Playstation
at 50 quid a go, or PC. Even the Mac does'nt get a look in.
What is wrong with this industry?
>
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------
> This email starred Marcus Dyson as Doc...@team17.com
> ----------------------------------------------------
Angus Manwaring
: I'm with you on this one. If you guys really believe that there are enough
: people wanting an AB3D level editor, email Spa...@team17.com and ask him
: for one. If enough of you mail, he may well get Andy to do one.
: And the direct sell to owners of AB3D for 9.99 sounds good to me!
This is Zeta squadron, going in.....
Cheers,
Angus.
"We are both men of action," Westley replied. "Lies do not become us."
"Well spoken."said the Count, and with one sudden swing, he clubbed Westley
into insensitivity.
an...@angusm.demon.co.uk
Neil Clark
>
>(Sorry for not snipping this, but the UNIX's are going hay-wire, and I'm
>stuck with no cursor controls :-< )
I've you're using vi, then the keys h,j,k,l in command mode will act
as the cursor keys left, down, up and right respectively. Reminds me of
using the keys 5,6,7,8 to play games on my old speccy.
Told you I was a smarty-pants :-P
--
"If *everybody* says something is a Good Thing, avoid it like the plague"
And other useless pearls of wisdom.
Keurentjes
In article <44jio2$h...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au> pp...@giaec.cc.monash.edu.au (Need Sleep) writes:
> In article <8123948...@dream.team17.co.uk>, bag...@team17.co.ukR says...
>
> original and fun. If you go through the list of Team17 releases, there isnt
> one original title in there. All rehashes of other games.
You're right about that, but then you must also say that Team17 produced the best of
every kind of game . Project-X was done before but not that good. Superfrog was just
a simple platform-game. But Team17 really kicked the Amiga's ass and made it the best
platform-game. And now we're all arguing: "Oh my Lord, Team17 made Kingpin, how
could they ever make such a bad game." Come on, everyone and especially you, makes
mistakes. I work in a supermarket and have to order the products we sell. If I order
something which don't sell, I'm sorry, I'm just human. So shut up about Kingpin,
forget it and wait for AB3D and Worms, which will be definitely worth waiting for.
> What do you expect? Coming on usenet and getting heaps of fan mail?
According to your text you prefer bombmail?
> >
> >Yuo are the one who is accusing us of producing shovelware. We are
> >certainly guilty of a few things, but putting stuff out purely for the
> >sake of making cash is definitely one of them. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Oh I get it now. Your just in it for the cash? Im sure everyone will love to
> hear that.
We're living in Western Europe. Remember? Not in some ancient communist country. The
only way for a company to survive is to make cash.
> But thats the problem, It isnt good stuff. Most of it is utter trash. And if
> you continue to release trash expect more grief. ^^^^^
You were talking about yourself, I guess.
Marco
Jamie Willmott
: It's just very sad... especially if you know that a lot of the
: products people want (Daytona - Virtual fighter etc...) is
: possible on the Amiga.
:
: On A1230/50 machines Daytona is possible - and will work with
: blitterscreen techniques on an unexpanded machine at 10-12 fps
: with a reduced screen size.
For the price of a A1230/50 I could buy a Playstation/Saturn
and run those type of games anyway. Why should people put
up with an inferior computer version just to show that their
machine could just about handle it?
Most people buy accelerators for reasons other than
games playing - I know I did.
BTW - I have a A1200 with Blizzard 1220/4 and 250MB HD.
I also have a Playstation, so I can see both sides
of the coin.
Jamie...
--
_______ ______ ______ __ ______
/__ __/| / __ /| / /| / /| / ____/| @puddytat.
_|_/ /|_|// __ / // / / / // / // ____/|/ demon.
/____/ / /_/|/_/ //_/_/_/ //_/ //_____/|/ co.
|____|/ |_|/|_|/ |_|_|_|/ |_|/ |_____|/ uk
Given that God is infinite, and that the universe is
also infinite....would you like a toasted teacake?
James McArthur
: >btw. It's now 30-9-'95 23:37:34 CET..... Which means that you've still got one
: >hour and 20 minutes to release AB3D....... Or you guys forgot you
: promised that?
: >
: >
: > Niels
: I posted the other day explaining what happened to AB3D (last minute
: memory problem and all that). But I haven't seen the post on my own news
: server, so I doubt that it got to any of yours!!!
: Anyway. It has now gone to duplication! It takes about 10 days to get into
: the shops here in the UK, a little longer elsewhere. Late - yes! But it's
: on its way.
How long to get Down Under? Any chance of putting a rocket up its bum? :-)
: Enjoy. I'll be waiting here for the flames. Send any kudos to Andy Clitheroe!
: --
Keurentjes
In article <DFvqI...@exeter.ac.uk> DJDa...@exeter.ac.uk (D.J.Davies) writes:
> I'll send 30-40 pound myself to T17 per game if it means I get
> qualty software. hell if there is less of a market for the
> Amiga why not just put the price up to compensate. or am I
> oversimplifying things.
>
> I'll spend 40 pounds on a game like a tmap f1gp2, or daytona.
> For my new A1230/50
Me too.
Marco
--
Marcus 'Dr' Dee
>What is wrong with this industry?
An insider's view? LOTS!
Paul Chan
>
>In article <DFvqI...@exeter.ac.uk> DJDa...@exeter.ac.uk (D.J.Davies) writes:
>> I'll send 30-40 pound myself to T17 per game if it means I get
>> qualty software. hell if there is less of a market for the
>> Amiga why not just put the price up to compensate. or am I
>> oversimplifying things.
>>
>> I'll spend 40 pounds on a game like a tmap f1gp2, or daytona.
>> For my new A1230/50
>
>Me too.
>
> Marco
Putting prices up may just drive more Amiga games buyers away...
However, I want PC class games on my Amiga, therefore I am AM willing to pay PC
class prices for them, so count me in.
G.Nath
By PC class games i assume you mean graphics & CPU wise, PC games
are a hell of a lot bigger than standard Amiga stuff which means
the need for HD storage, extra CPU strength, memory etc.
You must remember that you will not only be paying the same
price as PC software but the machine specs needed to run it.
Take Breathless for example, if you have high spec equipment you
will reap the benefits of this game. If you have a stock 2MB
1200.. well the breathless screen shots look a little tough
for an std 020.
Some of us already have decent spec systems, so this need for PC
class system requirements comes easily into are stride.
If a game was to need extra 4 meg, or faster CPU *I* would find
it acceptable because I use my machine for stuff besides games,
the upgrades wouldn`t be wasted for the sake of a game.
Anyway Team17 thanks for staying with Amiga while you could.
GVN
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Keyboard Missing: Press F1 to cotinue...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
D.J.Davies
> Paul Chan <paul> writes:
>
> >ma...@sandman.iaehv.nl (Keurentjes) wrote:
> >>
> >>In article <DFvqI...@exeter.ac.uk> DJDa...@exeter.ac.uk (D.J.Davies) writes:
>
> >However, I want PC class games on my Amiga, therefore I am AM willing to pay PC
> >class prices for them, so count me in.
>
>
> By PC class games i assume you mean graphics & CPU wise, PC games
> are a hell of a lot bigger than standard Amiga stuff which means
> the need for HD storage, extra CPU strength, memory etc.
I have:
A1200 A1230/50Mhz 4Mg Ram, 420Mg HD Colour Ink jet, High
density Power Drive - Therefore I think I have a good enough
system to run Breathless.... All I want to do now is buy it.
Although these sort of power games might not produce enough
bread & butter for software developers to carry on.
If the software is'nt there people won't upgrade their systems,
if the hardware is'nt there developers can't sell their
software.
>
> You must remember that you will not only be paying the same
> price as PC software but the machine specs needed to run it.
>
> Take Breathless for example, if you have high spec equipment you
> will reap the benefits of this game. If you have a stock 2MB
> 1200.. well the breathless screen shots look a little tough
> for an std 020.
But you see if you look at Doom on the PC it is exactly the same
if you play doom on a 386sx16 = crap, if you play doom on a
486DX = good, if you play doom on a Pentium p60 = fucking
amazing.
>
> Some of us already have decent spec systems, so this need for PC
> class system requirements comes easily into are stride.
> If a game was to need extra 4 meg, or faster CPU *I* would find
> it acceptable because I use my machine for stuff besides games,
> the upgrades wouldn`t be wasted for the sake of a game.
Ditto!
>
>
>
> Anyway Team17 thanks for staying with Amiga while you could.
Double Ditto! >: D.J.
>
> GVN
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Keyboard Missing: Press F1 to cotinue...
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
____ __ ____ ____ ____ _ _ ____ __ _ _ ____ ____ ___
( _ \ /__\ ( _ \( _ \( ___)( \( ) ( _ \ /__\( \/ )(_ _)( ___)/ __)
)(_) )/(__)\ ) / ) / )__) ) ( )(_) )/(__)\\ / _)(_ )__) \__ \
(____/(__)(__)(_)\_)(_)\_)(____)(_)\_) (____/(__)(__)\/ (____)(____)(___/
I.T. Technician, School of Education - Exeter University /\/\/\/\/\/\///OO,
Keurentjes
> >I would suggest that if you're going to criciticise people in a public
> >forum like this you learn what the f***k *YOU* are talking about.
> >Marcus isn't our PR bloke. That's Alan Bunker's job. Marcus is the
> >head of the multimedia division and general odd-job man...
> >
> >I'd definitely say that you Need Sleep. You're obviously ranting
> >through lack of it...
>
> Ok fine, mistake on my behalf.But then having Marcus coming on Usenet and
> plugging Team17 software isnt PR anyway?
He's not plugging, he's providing service. He's asked us what we thought of the
game, how we thought they could improve the game, and he's been more or less
a great discussion participant, unlike you.
> >Well, quite a lot of people obviously wanted to play bowling games,
> >but not as many as we'd hoped...
>
> Yeah right. Sure you did.
Cut the crap 'bout Kingpin. Ok, I don't like it either, and I said so, but for
some reason you must always make a fool of yourself by writing it a zillion
times. Get some sleep.
> >Obviously you are the fount of all knowledge about gameplay. What have
> >you ever written? Apart from a few rather banal and silly messages?
>
> Gameplay? There is only so much you can take of Kingpin after it becomes
> boring as batshit.
>
> Remember,I am the general public. I am the one who buys software. And yes , I
> have got some Team17 software as well. So you would think I know what im
> talking about. I played the Kingpin demo and it was shit and thus I never got
> it. Does that make me a bad person for not supporting Team17 and the Amiga?
> Cant you see it? you guys say "how can we support the Amiga after such
> dissapointing sales", but if you release crap what do you expect?
>
> Look at DMA design. They made such a killing out of Lemmings, cos it was
> original and fun. If you go through the list of Team17 releases, there isnt
> one original title in there. All rehashes of other games.
Yeah, but they were the BEST rehashes. And AB3D is innovative in my opinion as
well.
btw. Could you name 3 games the last 5 years that were really innovative (NEW).
1. Lemmings
2. Doom
I can't think of a third......
> >This is the problem with Usenet. It's full of people (like yourself)
> >who post before thinking. Marcus doesn't do that. If he tells you to
> >go fuck yourself you can be sure he means it....
>
> What do you expect? Coming on usenet and getting heaps of fan mail?
Some people do. You don't this way.
> >I really am amazed by this thread. Team 17 have worked hard to produce
> >great games on whatever platform and all we seem to get is grief. We
> >work bloody hard to produce good stuff. Sad little individuals like
> >yourself really make me wonder whether it's worth the effort...
>
> But thats the problem, It isnt good stuff. Most of it is utter trash. And if
> you continue to release trash expect more grief.
Go fuck yourself.
Niels
Keurentjes
> I *can* see how that would be a problem, but surely the `mail-order already
> does it' argument carries some weight? And you could always sell at retail,
> and just make do with a bigger cut from each sale. 8^) Of course, people
> aren't gonna exactly rush to the phone for that I guess...
The company'd have to match the lowest mail-order price then, and they'd also
have to support EMail then..... Not all Amiga's are located in Britain you know!
And if I can order from a mail-order company that DOES support Eurocard AND is
cheaper, I'll order from them! If T17 uses the lowest price they'll still get
a bigger cut than if I'd buy it from someone else.
> Maybe the shareware route would be worth a try? Put out a level editor for
> one of your more popular releases, such as AB3D (yeah! do it!) or Worms or
> whatever, with a shareware fee of 5 or 10 quid. Post it to aminet, stick it
> on coverdisks, whatever, and see what happens. If it works, its another
> possible marketing route, and if it doesn't, so what, you never expected it
> to in the first place! ;^)
Shareware wouldn't work..... The iD-way is great though: make it Crippleware!
Give us 10% or less of the game, just enough so one can't use it properly but
ppl can still get addicted.... Then ask 20 quid for the full boxed game with
manual.
> I think I may be hoping a bit here, but hey its monday morning and I can't
> think properly on mondays!!!
>
> Oh yeah, there's alot of crap in this thread about T17, and I'd just like to
> say that I'm on your side. (creep!) 8^) There are a *couple* of your
> releases I think were... optimistic, but hey, I don't buy *all* your games
> anyway, just the ones that interest me. If people don't like your games,
> they don't *have* to buy them. Erm... Release AB3D NOW!!!
YES!!! FULLY AGREED!!!
> ========================= john....@bbsrc.ac.uk =====================///===
> A1200, 40 Mhz '030, 2+4Mb RAM, 80Mb HD, 1960 MSync Monitor. ///
> -------------------------------------------------------------------\XX/-----
A1200, 50 Mhz '030, 2+8Mb RAM, 540Mb HD, 1942 MSync Monitor.... ;-)
Keurentjes
> I'm with you on this one. If you guys really believe that there are enough
> people wanting an AB3D level editor, email Spa...@team17.com and ask him
> for one. If enough of you mail, he may well get Andy to do one.
Consider it done! Why has Martyn left this newsgroup anyway?
> And the direct sell to owners of AB3D for £9.99 sounds good to me!
Hmmm.... I guess for that price you'd better bundle it with some extra levels!
> I'm here cos I give a shit about the Amiga. I can't help it if the company
> I work for (who I came to work for because of how much they supported the
> Amiga) are thinking about stopping doing so.
>
> And I'm not whinging about the bad stuff some people are saying about Team
> 17. If I was in your position, I might say the same things, hell, we can
> take it.
>
> When the dust settles down, I hope the Amiga recovers, I hope that Team 17
> are tempted back to it. I hope other people, like Mark Sibly, keep
> creating great games for the Amiga. I hope if any of you buy a
> PlayStation, you buy some of our games (if you like them) and I hope you
> buy some of Mark Sibly's, and Andy Braybrook's and Simon Armstrong's (if
> they ever do PlayStation stuff). Oh, anmd most of all... I hope none of
> you ever buy a PC :-)
Fully agreed on everything. I must honestly say I think you're a great guy
(unlike Cha...@team17.co.uk...), but I'm arguing 'coz I can't think of a good
reason to drop the Amiga..... Hell, on this newsgroup you've already got your-
self 100 sales for AB3D!!!
Oh, and I'll NEVER NEVER EVER buy a PC..... Ask Charlie about some weird Sauron
guy..... ;-)
Keurentjes
In article <Doctor-0210...@spong.team17.co.uk> Doc...@team17.com (Marcus 'Dr' Dee) writes:
> In article <marco...@sandman.iaehv.nl>, ma...@sandman.iaehv.nl wrote:
>
> >btw. It's now 30-9-'95 23:37:34 CET..... Which means that you've still got one
> >hour and 20 minutes to release AB3D....... Or you guys forgot you
> promised that?
> >
> >
> > Niels
>
> I posted the other day explaining what happened to AB3D (last minute
> memory problem and all that). But I haven't seen the post on my own news
> server, so I doubt that it got to any of yours!!!
We got the message.... ;-)
> Anyway. It has now gone to duplication! It takes about 10 days to get into
> the shops here in the UK, a little longer elsewhere. Late - yes! But it's
> on its way.
Okay, now set a reasonable price for Direct Order, allow us to use Eurocard and
allow EMail orders.....
Then post our copy when it's finished.
Mat Bettinson
M'D> An insider's view? LOTS!
Spill. On second thoughts, fancy writing a Points of View?
.--, /\ _ _
_ ___ |CU| / \ |\/| | | _ |_|
/\/\(-) | @ `--' /----\ | | | |_| | | Staff technical writer
/ \
< Opinions expressed by me are not necessarily those of my employer >
Richard Clark
-> public >forum like this you learn what the f***k *YOU* are talking
-> about. >Marcus isn't our PR bloke. That's Alan Bunker's job. Marcus
-> is the >head of the multimedia division and general odd-job man...
-> >
-> >I'd definitely say that you Need Sleep. You're obviously ranting
-> >through lack of it...
->
-> Ok fine, mistake on my behalf.But then having Marcus coming on Usenet
-> plugging Team17 software isnt PR anyway?
So what? It's not as if he spams the place with Alien Breed messages! At
least the guy makes a good contribution to the discussions!
->
-> >>I remember reading one of your
-> >>earlier posts and you were saying that Kingpin's sales were dissapo
-> Why?
-> >>Who the fuck wants to play bowling games? There is much more, bette
-> >>and original software out there worth getting than crap like Kingpi
-> >
-> >Well, quite a lot of people obviously wanted to play bowling games,
-> >but not as many as we'd hoped...
->
-> Yeah right. Sure you did.
Ok, I must admit I wasn't the least interested in a bolwing game. God
knows why they did it, I wrote one when I was 8. It was crap, boring and
I've never been able to understand how it could possibly be made
interesting. hmm
-> >
-> >Obviously you are the fount of all knowledge about gameplay. What ha
-> >you ever written? Apart from a few rather banal and silly messages?
-> >
->
-> Gameplay? There is only so much you can take of Kingpin after it beco
-> boring as batshit.
->
-> Remember,I am the general public. I am the one who buys software.
-> And yes , I have got some Team17 software as well. So you would
-> think I know what im talking about. I played the Kingpin demo and it
-> was shit and thus I never got it. Does that make me a bad person for
-> not supporting Team17 and the Amiga?
Nope. The fact that you're buying software is good. Too many lamers out
thee who aren't, but an original game idea is tough to come up
with...how about some ideas genius?
-> Cant you see it? you guys say "how can we support the Amiga after suc
-> dissapointing sales", but if you release crap what do you expect?
->
-> Look at DMA design. They made such a killing out of Lemmings, cos it
-> original and fun. If you go through the list of Team17 releases, ther
-> one original title in there. All rehashes of other games.
->
I dunno, I always liked Alien Breed, it was...violent and fun, dunno
why.. But new is risky, sure, lemmings was grat, but how many other cute
puzzlers died because nobody except the programmers thought they were
great? Team 17 have got to keep alive man, If they could have a
guarrantee of people buying new games, it'd be different, but there
aren't enough Amiga people BUYING software anymore :(
-> >
-> >This is the problem with Usenet. It's full of people (like yourself)
-> >who post before thinking. Marcus doesn't do that. If he tells you to
-> >go fuck yourself you can be sure he means it....
->
-> What do you expect? Coming on usenet and getting heaps of fan mail?
->
Well, some congratualtions should be in order really. Think about it
man, they've done a lot for the machine you're using. They contributed
to the sales, and through that continued software support.
-> >
-> >Yuo are the one who is accusing us of producing shovelware. We are
-> >certainly guilty of a few things, but putting stuff out purely for
-> the >sake of making cash is definitely one of them.
-> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
-> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
-> Oh I get it now. Your just in it for the cash? Im sure everyone will
-> love to hear that.
->
Hey, Money makes the world go round buddy, If they don't get it, they
can't make good stuff. If you have to release a minority game (Kingpin
for example) in order to kepp everybody out of debt for the next few
months it takes to finish something good, they DO IT!
->
-> >I really am amazed by this thread. Team 17 have worked hard to produ
-> >great games on whatever platform and all we seem to get is grief. We
-> >work bloody hard to produce good stuff. Sad little individuals like
-> >yourself really make me wonder whether it's worth the effort...
->
-> But thats the problem, It isnt good stuff. Most of it is utter trash.
-> you continue to release trash expect more grief.
Ha, it'd be nice to see anyone like you write a game that's even
remotely as playable as some of Team 17's stuff. Go away until you've
got a better idea.
Richard Clark
richar...@welcom.gen.nz
Amiga Programmer - DiGiTAL ViSiON
SnowKidz out soon!
And I LOVE Arcade Pool
Morden
: the Amiga.
So PROVE to the "stick"ers that the Amiga is a WORTHWILE platform. Write
the software we *want*, use expansions in machines, DON'T WRITE FOR A STOCK
A1200!
If you would just DO this rather than complaining about the minimum spec
(which you guys seemed to do before - screw the rest, write the best) on
machines which have accelerators and fast ram that you don't KNOW about,
you can help to raise this fabled spec. Like it was done on the PC
(mentioned by Mark Sibly (sp? sorry) elsewhere in the group, the Amiga
NEEDS visionaries now like the PC had before.
And on piracy, you think piracy is everywhere on the Ami? God, I wanted
to send you guys something a while ago, I really did. Go take a look in
Singapore at the "software" stores... I used to frequently. What did I
see, to my utter surprise, to make my blood boil? PC games - specifically
Body Blows & Alien Breed selling for S$5 each - that's about 2 UKP ... I
wanted to grab them and send them to you and PROVE that there's as much
piracy on the PC as the Ami, but you probably wouldn't listen...
Team 17 was revolutionary when you guys first published software for our
beloved Amigas. Now you've turned into one of the mob. Stop complaining
about the machine and start doing things with it and the results - in
sales - will present themselves.
Please.
--
____
---- / / / -- Jason Murray - <*> - http://yallara.cs.rmit.edu.au/~s9507594 -
____/ / /
\ \/ / / "They came at us out of nowhere, we never had a chance. The sky was
\/_/_/ full of stars, every one of them an exploding ship - one of ours."
-[ I have the last 4 season 2 Babylon 5's! ]---[ IRC: Morden / Uridium ]----
Andrew Roehrig
: In the previous episode you saw D.J.Davies (DJDa...@exeter.ac.uk) write:
:
: : It's just very sad... especially if you know that a lot of the
: : products people want (Daytona - Virtual fighter etc...) is
: : possible on the Amiga.
: :
: : On A1230/50 machines Daytona is possible - and will work with
: : blitterscreen techniques on an unexpanded machine at 10-12 fps
: : with a reduced screen size.
You know, *we*'re much more picky about frame rates than most people. I just
played some racing game on a SNES at my sister's. It had 3d polygon race
tracks and was slow as shit. Somehow these people go out and spend $100 on
these games and *never* complain. Gloom on my A1200'030 screams when compared
with the SNES version of DOOM (which surprisingly isn't bad). The full-screen
mode in Gloom is quite acceptable when viewed on a tv 10 feet away.
And the nice thing about Amiga games is, you can live with SNES frame rates,
and then, when you want more, supe up your Amiga and *quadruple* the frame
rates. It's like getting a whole selection of *new* games 8^)
ar
Nils Sudmann
On 04-Okt-95 17:11:05, D.J.Davies (DJDa...@exeter.ac.uk) wrote:
>cm6...@ccub.wlv.ac.uk writes:
>I have:
>A1200 A1230/50Mhz 4Mg Ram, 420Mg HD Colour Ink jet, High
>density Power Drive - Therefore I think I have a good enough
>system to run Breathless.... All I want to do now is buy it.
Hmm, 420Mg HD Colour Ink jet?!? Should probably be a ',' somewhere in there ;)
Anyway, can't see how a colour ink jet could help breathless. The paper update
is simply too slow these days ;)
<sb>
Nils Peter Sudmann // Using Thor v2.01, sign v1.3
"Truth, a random variable possibly // EMAIL: ni...@stud.cs.uit.no
containing complex numbers" // WWW: http://www.cs.uit.no/~nilss