What was the first really Great Game for Amiga?
Seppo Typpo
Here's a question - which was the first game that 'made' Amiga a
success during the first years?
I mean the first game which made people stood up and take notice,
lifting the machine above its competitors and into the limelights.
My vote goes to F/A-18 Interceptor, despite the fact that the first
Shadow of the Beast looked truly awesome with its zillion-layer
scrolling :-)
Seppo
kid...@remoov.wvi.com
>Here's a question - which was the first game that 'made' Amiga a
>success during the first years?
Shadow of the Beast.
>I mean the first game which made people stood up and take notice,
>lifting the machine above its competitors and into the limelights.
Yup, Shadow of the Beast. Not my favorite game I assure you, but none the
less...
>My vote goes to F/A-18 Interceptor, despite the fact that the first
>Shadow of the Beast looked truly awesome with its zillion-layer
>scrolling :-)
Hmm... No one in my circle of friends really cared about F/A-18 (I liked it
though). For most of them it was all about the eye/ear candy. Needless to say
in the early days, Psygnosis was the biggest selling point of Amigas in my
circle of friends.
I think one of the first games that really did it for me though was Battle
Chess. All one had to do was compare it to it's port to other systems and one
knew immediately what was the best machine. The C=64 version had awefull sound
and poor graphics. The PC version was laughable, the sprites would move, the
game would seize, and this hopeless "tink" would emerge from the internal
speaker. Snicker. I recall having conversations along the line of this:
"Why did you tell me I should get this, it sucks. The graphics suck, the sound
sucks, blah blah blah..."
"What? No way. Here, check it out on my Amiga 1000."
<crunching noise of A1000 disk drive not unlike eating celery>
"Wow, it's not anything like that on my Dad's PC Jr.!"
The Amiga had quite a few of those back in those days... Bard's Tale, Archon,
Adventure Construction Set, etc.
Anyone recall thier first time playing Populace? :-)
> Seppo
Bill Silvey
"Seppo Typpo" <gro...@pp.inet.fi> wrote in message
news:3C992183.MD-...@pp.inet.fi...
For me, it was Falcon from Spectrum Holobyte. A game which essentially
"lives on" to this day in the form of the heavily user-modified Falcon 4.0
for the PC, it brought a high-fidelity flight simulation environment to the
Amiga, and actually encouraged fast CPU usage. After F15 Strike Eagle, F19
Stealth Fighter, Gunship and subLogic's Jet! on the C64, the
smooth-as-glass, high-color (all 64 colors baby, woo!) graphics of Falcon
were unbeatable.
It wasn't without it's shortcomings; in the original, enemy strategy seemed
to consist of extend and engage when they had enough missiles, close in for
a quick guns pass when out of missiles, or just fly in a circle around you
if they didn't have the position or speed advantage. The first mission disk
introduced an enemy who's problem was at the other end of the spectrum: they
were ridiculously smart. MiG29 Ground Control would often vector in enemy
fighters while you were just getting airborne, so before you could get to
station, they'd be on you.
The second (and final) mission disk finally gave us an air threat that was
neither too smart nor too stupid. Pity it was the last one. If I had a
problem with Falcon, it was that it wasn't HD installable, IIRC (I guess
WHDLoad has fixed that?)...
--
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> I don't think anything short of no-boot would put Macists off Mac.
> The last stable OS was System 6.0.8. So long as system messages
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> 4-year-old, they will continue to love it. - Patrick Ford
David Parker
Beast 2 and Back to the Future 2. But I dunno when these games first came
out. Other people have mentioned the first Shadow of the Beast and this was
one of my favorite games, but I didn't play this till after Beast 2 (SOTB 2
came with the flight of fantasy pack and SOTB 1 required kickstart emulation
to run on the A500+ I got).
Some of the other greats were The Killing Gameshow and Lemmings (another
game that was laughable on the PC).
Kieron Wilkinson
> My vote goes to F/A-18 Interceptor, despite the fact that the first
> Shadow of the Beast looked truly awesome with its zillion-layer
> scrolling :-)
Add to F/A-18, The New Zeland Story - and absolutely *amazing* arcade port -
I should know I own the Amiga version and the arcade PCB :o)
Both of these in the Batman Pack must have sold Amiga's like crazy. Okay, so
Batman alone probably sold a few copies too. I actually quite like that game
even though many people talk down about it. Well, the platform part anyway!
--
Kieron Wilkinson
CAPS - The Classic Amiga Preservation Society
http://www.caps-project.org
Angus Manwaring
>"Seppo Typpo" <gro...@pp.inet.fi> wrote in message
>news:3C992183.MD-...@pp.inet.fi...
>> Ok, time for a new thread :-)
>For me, it was Falcon from Spectrum Holobyte. A game which essentially
>"lives on" to this day in the form of the heavily user-modified Falcon 4.0
>for the PC, it brought a high-fidelity flight simulation environment to the
>Amiga, and actually encouraged fast CPU usage. After F15 Strike Eagle, F19
>Stealth Fighter, Gunship and subLogic's Jet! on the C64, the
>smooth-as-glass, high-color (all 64 colors baby, woo!) graphics of Falcon
>were unbeatable.
Yeah Bill, tell him!!!! ;) There were also a complete absence of
"spindly bits" in the game.
>The second (and final) mission disk finally gave us an air threat that was
>neither too smart nor too stupid. Pity it was the last one. If I had a
>problem with Falcon, it was that it wasn't HD installable, IIRC (I guess
>WHDLoad has fixed that?)...
Not yet, but we live in hope. I think I've probably used up any credit I
had, so why not request it?
All the best,
Angus Manwaring. (for e-mail remove ANTISPEM)
I need your memories for the Amiga Games Database: A collection of Amiga
Game reviews by Amiga players http://www.angusm.demon.co.uk/AGDB/AGDB.html
Angus Manwaring
I wasn't completely knocked out by F18 on the unaccelerated Amigas,
although I think its cool game.
For me the answer to this thread has to be Defender of the Crown, which
may appear a little lacking in depth and playability now, but at the time
its presentation was stunning.
Bill Silvey
"Angus Manwaring" <angus@angusm_ANTISPEM_.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1350.845T983T11064198angus@angusm_ANTISPEM_.demon.co.uk...
> On 21-Mar-02 03:18:30, Bill Silvey said
> >"Seppo Typpo" <gro...@pp.inet.fi> wrote in message
> >news:3C992183.MD-...@pp.inet.fi...
> >> Ok, time for a new thread :-)
>
> >For me, it was Falcon from Spectrum Holobyte. A game which essentially
> >"lives on" to this day in the form of the heavily user-modified Falcon
4.0
> >for the PC, it brought a high-fidelity flight simulation environment to
the
> >Amiga, and actually encouraged fast CPU usage. After F15 Strike Eagle,
F19
> >Stealth Fighter, Gunship and subLogic's Jet! on the C64, the
> >smooth-as-glass, high-color (all 64 colors baby, woo!) graphics of Falcon
> >were unbeatable.
>
>
>
> Yeah Bill, tell him!!!! ;) There were also a complete absence of
> "spindly bits" in the game.
Yeah, Falcon was really really really great. Have you ever seen the
PC-concurrent Falcon (Falcon XT, I believe). Good god. Imagine Falcon on a
C64* but with an acceptable frame-rate. 320x200, purple, white, green,
black. VOM. IT. Falcon AT went a ways to fixing this (as well as adding
new missions?), and of course *to this day* there are people who still play
Falcon 3.0 on the PC.
The plan with the Amiga version was to add mission disk after mission disk,
each one introducing new options and weapons to the point where the sim
would eventually be on par with Falcon 3.0. Also in the pipe was an A10
simulator, a tank warfare simulator (which *was* released for the PC).
Of course, we know what happened next...
The other SH sim of the day, "Flight of the Intruder", was massive. Carrier
air ops set in the early 1970's, giving you the option to fly an A6A, A6B or
F4 Phantom-II in the late stages of the Vietnam conflict. Man, there was
one hell of a game. I don't think I scratched the surface of that one, even
though I had it for ages. You could assume the role of a strike-planner and
order literally a dozen or more A6's with a full compliment of F4's in the
air-cover role on a huge "alpha strike" against targets inside North
Vietnam. Given the screwy politics of that war, though, you had to be extra
careful to assign proper "rules of engagement' so as not to bomb the wrong
target or face court-marshal!
I remember when SH/Rowan dropped the Amiga because although Falcon had sold
tens of thousands of copies (something along the lines of 50k copies,
IIRC?), FotI had "only" sold 8500 copies or so.
I think 8500 copies of an Amiga game constitutes an unqualified success
these days ;-]
> >The second (and final) mission disk finally gave us an air threat that
was
> >neither too smart nor too stupid. Pity it was the last one. If I had a
> >problem with Falcon, it was that it wasn't HD installable, IIRC (I guess
> >WHDLoad has fixed that?)...
>
>
> Not yet, but we live in hope. I think I've probably used up any credit I
> had, so why not request it?
Well at the risk of getting something heavy thrown at me, I don't own an
Amiga any longer; me asking for a WHDload/JST loader would be a bit
disingenuous. I wish I still had the disks, I'd be more than happy to mail
them off to those guys.
Since, however, I do plan on getting back in to the Amiga with the new
systems coming out, I really hope someone creates a high-end flight sim for
the new Amiga. Something along the lines of Janes F15 or heck even WWII
Fighters.
*maybe I'm going senile with old age but I could swear up and down that a
C64 mag in the late 80's/early 90's talked about an upcoming version of
Falcon for the C64...
Dave Williams
of the earlier games, but it was certainly impressive and showed the console
boys that good, solid platform games will lots of secret levels was
acheiveable on a Miggy.
Another game that comes to mind is kick-off and then later kick-off II, what
amazing footie games they were...awesome fun and lots of laughs when playing
against a human opponent...scored some amazing goals on KO :-)
--
"Seppo Typpo" <gro...@pp.inet.fi> wrote in message
news:3C992183.MD-...@pp.inet.fi...
Joona I Palaste
> What about Robo Cod ?? Can't remember when it came out, maybe it wasn't one
> of the earlier games, but it was certainly impressive and showed the console
> boys that good, solid platform games will lots of secret levels was
> acheiveable on a Miggy.
RoboCod had awesome intro music. But the main in-game tune sucked badly
in comparison... why the heck couldn't they have used the same tune for
both?
--
/-- Joona Palaste (pal...@cc.helsinki.fi) ---------------------------\
| Kingpriest of "The Flying Lemon Tree" G++ FR FW+ M- #108 D+ ADA N+++|
| http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste W++ B OP+ |
\----------------------------------------- Finland rules! ------------/
"'So called' means: 'There is a long explanation for this, but I have no
time to explain it here.'"
- JIPsoft
Jay Digital
but I'd say that Simon the Sorceror was a really good game.
--
Jonathan Drain | I'd explain it to you, but your head would explode...
ICQ: 39945538 | AIM: DarkJonnyDigital | MSN: jonath...@hotmail.com
http://www.jonnydigital.com - visit my site - http://jdigital.pyoko.org
NEWSGROUP HINT OF THE DAY:
Be sure to quote the relevant part of the original message so we
know exactly who and what you're replying to.
Rick Jones
> Ok, time for a new thread :-)
>
> Here's a question - which was the first game that 'made' Amiga a
> success during the first years?
You're asking me to remember all the way back to 1985? Whew! I'm not
sure that any of the first releases were all that hot. Programmers were
still trying to figure out what this hardware could do at the time. A
lot the early stuff was ports of games that were already on the C-64, PC
or Mac, but with better graphics and sound added.
Earl Weaver Baseball made a lot of people's jaws drop. I went gaga
the first time I saw Bard's Tale demoed. The 3D first person scrolling
effect made me run out and buy it and put Ultima III on the shelf.
Sometime later Dungeonmaster did the same thing for a lot of other
people; of course, it originated on the ST. The Amiga versions of
Pirates! and Nuclear War are still the best versions out there.
I think it was the games from Cinemaware that really began to push
the graphics and sound capabilities of the Amiga beyond anything that
had ever been seen on any computer before. A lot of people complained
about the simplicity of the games, but they sure looked and sounded
great. Defender Of The Crown set new standards for everybody else to
strive to equal.
--
Rick Jones
Remove the Extra Dot to e-mail me
Hidehiko Ogata
it in early '86 was quite an experience... you could almost smell the
upcoming revolution.
On commercial biggies, I agree with others; Defender of the Crown
(late '86), Dungeon Master ('87?), Shadow of the Beast ('89)... then
came Lemmings ('90?).
--
// }{idehiko ()gata "What did ya expect in an opera?
\X/ Amiga since '86 A happy ending?" - Bugs Bunny
RIP Chuck Jones 1912-2002
Bishop
<bxsxixl...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>For me, it was Falcon from Spectrum Holobyte. A game which essentially
>"lives on" to this day in the form of the heavily user-modified Falcon 4.0
>for the PC, it brought a high-fidelity flight simulation environment to the
>Amiga, and actually encouraged fast CPU usage. After F15 Strike Eagle, F19
>Stealth Fighter, Gunship and subLogic's Jet! on the C64, the
>smooth-as-glass, high-color (all 64 colors baby, woo!) graphics of Falcon
>were unbeatable.
>
My brother in law would bring over his Atari ST and we'd hook it up to
the Amiga with a null modem cable and play. Of course, he crapped his
pants when he heard the Falcon intro theme on the Amiga. And the
sound effects on my end completey drowned out his..
It was a great Amiga game, but Pirates! will always be my favorite on
that box.
kid...@remoov.wvi.com
Hmm... This sort of had me thinking. Does anyone remember Pioneer Plague? It
had yummy HAM graphics and Sinistar game-play.
Does anyone know if Dynamic Debugger was ever released? Wasn't it supposed to
run in dynamic hi-res or something?
Angus Manwaring
>Seppo Typpo wrote:
> I think it was the games from Cinemaware that really began to push
>the graphics and sound capabilities of the Amiga beyond anything that
>had ever been seen on any computer before. A lot of people complained
>about the simplicity of the games, but they sure looked and sounded
>great. Defender Of The Crown set new standards for everybody else to
>strive to equal.
Listen to Rick, Rick knows! :)
Marble Madness was very early and I still feel a classic game.
Angus Manwaring
>Both of these in the Batman Pack must have sold Amiga's like crazy. Okay, so
>Batman alone probably sold a few copies too. I actually quite like that game
>even though many people talk down about it. Well, the platform part anyway!
Hey, I thought the driving bit was pretty darn cool! :)
Angus Manwaring
>>I think I've rambled enough on Mind Walker already ;), still to behold
>>it in early '86 was quite an experience... you could almost smell the
>>upcoming revolution.
>>On commercial biggies, I agree with others; Defender of the Crown
>>(late '86), Dungeon Master ('87?), Shadow of the Beast ('89)... then
>>came Lemmings ('90?).
>>--
>> // }{idehiko ()gata "What did ya expect in an opera?
>>\X/ Amiga since '86 A happy ending?" - Bugs Bunny
>> RIP Chuck Jones 1912-2002
>Hmm... This sort of had me thinking. Does anyone remember Pioneer Plague? It
>had yummy HAM graphics and Sinistar game-play.
Wasn't Piobeer Plague the first HAM game on the Amiga?
Orange
<angus@angusm_ANTISPEM_.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 21-Mar-02 23:59:01, Rick Jones said
>>Seppo Typpo wrote:
>
>> I think it was the games from Cinemaware that really began to push
>>the graphics and sound capabilities of the Amiga beyond anything that
>>had ever been seen on any computer before. A lot of people complained
>>about the simplicity of the games, but they sure looked and sounded
>>great. Defender Of The Crown set new standards for everybody else to
>>strive to equal.
>
>
>Listen to Rick, Rick knows! :)
>
>Marble Madness was very early and I still feel a classic game.
>
Damn, that game (Marble Madness) is soooo hard. Are there any cheats
for it?
Seppo Typpo
> Wasn't Piobeer Plague the first HAM game on the Amiga?
Pio-BEER??!! Well, ok - it IS weekend after all :-)
I think it was the first - not sure if there are many others offering
HAM graphics. Knights of the Crystallion springs into mind. And of
course Links.
Seppo
Dunny
Rick Jones <rick...@extra.lanset.com> wrote in message
news:3C9A73C5...@extra.lanset.com...
> I think it was the games from Cinemaware that really began to push
> the graphics and sound capabilities of the Amiga beyond anything that
> had ever been seen on any computer before. A lot of people complained
> about the simplicity of the games, but they sure looked and sounded
> great. Defender Of The Crown set new standards for everybody else to
> strive to equal.
Rocket Ranger. Damn, but I lost a few days in there :)
D.
Thomas W
I remember some game called something like Banana Bros, Bonza Bros..
something like that. A port from an Acorn machine. I believe that was
the first HAM game.
- At least that's what it said in the news pages of the magazines back then.
Peter Olafson
and Earl Weaver Baseball. A lot of people in the USA bought Amigas after
they saw Dragon's Lair.
Peter
"Seppo Typpo" <gro...@pp.inet.fi> wrote in message
news:3C992183.MD-...@pp.inet.fi...
kid...@remoov.wvi.com
>>had yummy HAM graphics and Sinistar game-play.
>Wasn't Piobeer Plague the first HAM game on the Amiga?
Barring some games that used copper effects for backgrounds (not really HAM),
and some static screens in intros or text adventures and such, I really don't
know of any other game that used HAM. It isn't well suited for that sort of
thing, given its tendency to bleed colors (artifacting) when moved.
kid...@remoov.wvi.com
Ahh yes, I had forgotten about Knights of the Crystallion. Links was in HAM?
> Seppo
kid...@remoov.wvi.com
>and Earl Weaver Baseball. A lot of people in the USA bought Amigas after
>they saw Dragon's Lair.
>Peter
Dragon's Lair didn't really excite me that much. I mean, I suppose I should
have been impressed that a computer could do that, but for some reason at the
time I just wasn't.
Faery Tale Adventure, OTOH, had some of the best music. Those instruments were
just fantastic. The graphics were pretty good for the time, but I always felt
that the weird aspect/angle of view made the characters look like they had
palsy.
How did Lords of Time work out, wasn't that similar or perhaps a sequel.
kid...@remoov.wvi.com
No that honor goes to Pioneer Plague, I'm pretty sure... Peter?
Peter Olafson
that Microillusions became (Hollyware)--similar in style, and rather fun, as
I remember it, but not the same in feel.
Of course, "feel" is one of those elusive properties that can rarely be
recaptured even when the same designers are involved ... and he wasn't.
David Joiner helped form the Dreamers Guild. They did do some Amiga
ports--Robosport among them, I think--and their Inherit the Earth was ported
to the Amiga (alas, only in German; was an English patch ever released?) but
Faery Tale's sequel (The Halls of the Dead), released in 1997 or 98, was
Windows-only.
A good game, but missing that magical Joiner music than lent so much to the
tone of the original. Perhaps someone could talk Joiner into making the
source code available. It seems only right that the game appear on the Amiga
at some point.
Peter
<kid...@remoov.wvi.com> wrote in message
news:672.847T1061T...@remoov.wvi.com...
John Burns
>and Earl Weaver Baseball. A lot of people in the USA bought Amigas after
>they saw Dragon's Lair.
Yeah, but obviously not after playing it ;)
Hidehiko Ogata
> Damn, that game (Marble Madness) is soooo hard. Are there any cheats
> for it?
Semi-cheat: use a high-resolution mouse... ~600DPI does it for me.
I used to bruise my palm badly to get anywhere with that HEAVY
trackball of the arcade original; now I can complete it with just
some flick of wrist. This is what I call progress :).
(I recently learned that the Ami version were based on the same C
source code with the arcade original. Talk about authenticity!)
Hidehiko Ogata
> Pio-BEER??!! Well, ok - it IS weekend after all :-)
*LOL* :)
> I think it was the first - not sure if there are many others offering
> HAM graphics. Knights of the Crystallion springs into mind.
Yup, both by Bill Williams. As much as I love his stuff, I have to
wonder how they performed commercially... few people around me seemed
to take notice then ("Ohmigod! It's new from Bill Williams!" "Erm...
okay..."). How was it elsewhere?
Hidehiko Ogata
> David Joiner helped form the Dreamers Guild. They did do some Amiga
> ports--Robosport among them, I think-- 8< snip >8
Yup. Also responsible for Deluxe Music 2 IIRC... both commendable
efforts (hardly surprising).
Peter Olafson
"Hidehiko Ogata" <h...@aqu.bekkoame.ne.jp> wrote in message
news:J3.i2.iI2OFv...@aqu.bekkoame.ne.jp...
Angus Manwaring
>The plan with the Amiga version was to add mission disk after mission disk,
>each one introducing new options and weapons to the point where the sim
>would eventually be on par with Falcon 3.0. Also in the pipe was an A10
>simulator, a tank warfare simulator (which *was* released for the PC).
Didn't they Spectrum Holobyte also release Vette?
>Of course, we know what happened next...
>The other SH sim of the day, "Flight of the Intruder", was massive. Carrier
>air ops set in the early 1970's, giving you the option to fly an A6A, A6B or
>F4 Phantom-II in the late stages of the Vietnam conflict. Man, there was
>one hell of a game. I don't think I scratched the surface of that one,
Me neither, and I still have it. I think they made a bit of a mess of the
graphics though which were so nice in Falcon. Some "PC port-itis was
visible. :(
>Well at the risk of getting something heavy thrown at me, I don't own an
>Amiga any longer; me asking for a WHDload/JST loader would be a bit
>disingenuous. I wish I still had the disks, I'd be more than happy to mail
>them off to those guys.
I gather WHDLoad works with UAE, but I take your point.
>*maybe I'm going senile with old age but I could swear up and down that a
>C64 mag in the late 80's/early 90's talked about an upcoming version of
>Falcon for the C64...
News to me, but they converted Carrier Command didn't they.
Jukka Aho
> Here's a question - which was the first game that 'made' Amiga a
> success during the first years?
>
> I mean the first game which made people stood up and take notice,
> lifting the machine above its competitors and into the limelights.
Can't really say for the others, but for me it was reading the review
of Fairy Tale and experiencing the stereophonic music and brilliant
graphics in Crystal Hammer. (But actually, it was Deluxe Paint that
really sold the machine to me.)
-- znark
kid...@remoov.wvi.com
>> Pio-BEER??!! Well, ok - it IS weekend after all :-)
>*LOL* :)
>> I think it was the first - not sure if there are many others offering
>> HAM graphics. Knights of the Crystallion springs into mind.
>Yup, both by Bill Williams. As much as I love his stuff, I have to
>wonder how they performed commercially... few people around me seemed
>to take notice then ("Ohmigod! It's new from Bill Williams!" "Erm...
>okay..."). How was it elsewhere?
About the same on this side of the pond. No one in my group of friends seemed
to know or care who did what as far as games were a concern. They all knew the
brand names (read: publisher) of course, but never who actually responsible for
anything... Not even development houses being published by somone else (eg.
Populace was by EA, NOT Bullfrog).
Doesn't seem to be much better in the PC/Mac/console crowd either. Peter
Molyneux, Yu Suzuki, etc... Any time I've gotten excited about any of thier
games coming out I get, "That looks cool, but who's <insert name>?" <SIGH>
Hidehiko Ogata
> > Yup. Also responsible for Deluxe Music 2 IIRC... both commendable
> > efforts (hardly surprising).
>
> Actually, I believe David did Music X. (Not sure about the follow-up.)
Yup, that one as well (before TDG was formed IIRC).
Just confirmed it... DM2 too is credited to "Talin/The Dreamers Guild".
It really was a pleasant surprise for me; they somehow managed to
transform the daring yet messy first version (by another author) into
a textbook Style Guide implementation. One of the few (only?) outside
the Blue Ribbon suites to support their One Stop Music Shop, too :).
Was there any other Amiga stuff by TDG? I always admire superb
craftsmanship such as theirs.
Phil Davies
"Angus Manwaring" <angus@angusm_ANTISPEM_.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1690.848T2312T8485863angus@angusm_ANTISPEM_.demon.co.uk...
> >*maybe I'm going senile with old age but I could swear up and down that a
> >C64 mag in the late 80's/early 90's talked about an upcoming version of
> >Falcon for the C64...
>
> News to me, but they converted Carrier Command didn't they.
They did indeed, however it was missing all the nice 3D bits, sadly.
Phil
Peter Olafson
and I think SimAnt was another. I'd have to check on any involvement in Sim
Earth/Sim Life.
Peter
"Hidehiko Ogata" <h...@aqu.bekkoame.ne.jp> wrote in message
news:r2.r7.jI221p...@aqu.bekkoame.ne.jp...
Nathan
> "Seppo Typpo" <gro...@pp.inet.fi> wrote:
> Can't really say for the others, but for me it was reading the review
> of Fairy Tale and experiencing the stereophonic music and brilliant
> graphics in Crystal Hammer. (But actually, it was Deluxe Paint that
> really sold the machine to me.)
My first ever experience with the Amiga was F18 Interceptor on a 1Meg
A2000 .. So it had the extra music, and maybe other stuff. I was just
blown away. (Was a big fan of Microprose titles on the c64 at the time,
so this had me convinced that I need to buy an Amiga and that game...
Not necessarily in that order.) :)
As it turns out it took me a few years to actually get around to it.
A secondhand A500. Which fortunately had the Mem expansion and that
game. Not an original though. :(
I must be one of the few people in the world who didn't see fairytale
for aaaaages, and when I did didn't think it to be particularly amazing.
A nice idea, but just didn't capture my imagination. Maybe if I'd
played it a bit more.
Nathan.
Nathan
Phil Davies wrote:
> Angus Manwaring wrote:
>>News to me, but they converted Carrier Command didn't they.
>
> They did indeed, however it was missing all the nice 3D bits, sadly.
Erm... What was left then? :)
I'm sure I saw screenshots in Zzap64 that had 3d flying around
screenshots, um, but maybe that was a different reality/lifetime
or somethink. ;)
Darned stonking game on the Amiga though. Never got the hand of
it, but by 'eck it was a fun one.
Nathan.
Jeff
well, using a trackball helps a lot.
Bill Silvey
"Angus Manwaring" <angus@angusm_ANTISPEM_.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1690.848T2312T8485863angus@angusm_ANTISPEM_.demon.co.uk...
> On 21-Mar-02 19:23:37, Bill Silvey said
>
>
> >The plan with the Amiga version was to add mission disk after mission
disk,
> >each one introducing new options and weapons to the point where the sim
> >would eventually be on par with Falcon 3.0. Also in the pipe was an A10
> >simulator, a tank warfare simulator (which *was* released for the PC).
>
> Didn't they Spectrum Holobyte also release Vette?
Yes. From HOTU:
A highly underrated racing game, Vette! features great graphics, camera
angle options, and multiplayer. It was, in fact, one of the first racing
games to offer multiplayer racing via modem, which is implemented quite
successfully despite inherent lags that were common in older modems.
The goal of the game, as the name suggests, is to race your corvette against
another human or computer player through an accurate reproduction of San
Francisco, complete with discernible landmarks such as the Golden Gate
bridge. You can choose between store models (stock or ZR1), or a tricked-up
'vette (twin turbo or "sledgehammer"). The game includes an excellent
on-screen map display from which you can choose the best route -- there are
multiple ways to reach the finish line. You can also switch between views,
including left, right, rearview mirror, with or without the dashboard,
helicopter chase cam, or a combination of these. Definitely one of the most
fun street racing games ever made, with enough realism to satisfy die-hard
racers and a gentle learning curve and great graphics to keep beginners
hooked. Two thumbs up!
> >Of course, we know what happened next...
>
> >The other SH sim of the day, "Flight of the Intruder", was massive.
Carrier
> >air ops set in the early 1970's, giving you the option to fly an A6A, A6B
or
> >F4 Phantom-II in the late stages of the Vietnam conflict. Man, there was
> >one hell of a game. I don't think I scratched the surface of that one,
>
> Me neither, and I still have it. I think they made a bit of a mess of the
> graphics though which were so nice in Falcon. Some "PC port-itis was
> visible. :(
Believe it or not, Flight of the Intruder's UI was designed to mimic the
Macintosh UI; I found this out when I made the comment in
comp.sys.ibm-pc.games.flight-sim that the UI seemed to mimic the Amiga. One
of FOTIs programmers lurked there and popped in to note that they were going
after a Mac-like interface. I don't recall if he said it was to make it
Mac-compatible or just something they were trying to do.
Anyway, dust that thing off and degrade your system, and give the Mission
"4th of July Raid" a try, and go bomb Uncle Ho's airfields! :-) A favorite
of mine was taking CAP missions, but deliberately selecting the A6 and
arming it with 15 Zuni rocket packs (10 in each pack) and seeing how many
MiG17's I could bust up using unguided AG rockets in an air-to-air mode :-)
> >Well at the risk of getting something heavy thrown at me, I don't own an
> >Amiga any longer; me asking for a WHDload/JST loader would be a bit
> >disingenuous. I wish I still had the disks, I'd be more than happy to
mail
> >them off to those guys.
>
> I gather WHDLoad works with UAE, but I take your point.
Well, if you've got an .ADF on your PCs hard drive, there's hardly a reason
to install it to the Amiga's virtual drive - unless you're also doing
productivity work, in which case when you're done you don't want to have to
shut down the emulation and restart it.
That reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask, just out of
curiosity. When the awful trackloading and NDOS garbage is removed from the
various games and they're installed on the HD, are the majority of the games
themselves then well-behaved? That is, do they run in an intuition screen,
can you switch back to workbench while they're in the background etc.?
> >*maybe I'm going senile with old age but I could swear up and down that a
> >C64 mag in the late 80's/early 90's talked about an upcoming version of
> >Falcon for the C64...
>
> News to me, but they converted Carrier Command didn't they.
I'll see if MiGMan knows. He's an austrailan Flight sim nut; he runs a
website which is dedicated to the genre and has just about everything
there - and notes *all* the platforms the games ran on, including the Amiga.
His site went pay a while ago, though...
--
http://home.cfl.rr.com/delversdungeon/index.htm
Remove the X's in my email address to respond.
> I don't think anything short of no-boot would put Macists off Mac.
> The last stable OS was System 6.0.8. So long as system messages
> are phrased as if a patronising aunt were addressing a retarded
> 4-year-old, they will continue to love it. - Patrick Ford
Hidehiko Ogata
> They did at least a couple of Amiga conversions for Maxis. RoboSport was
> one and I think SimAnt was another. I'd have to check on any involvement in
> Sim Earth/Sim Life.
Ah, Maxis connection! *smacks my forehead* All too obvious, once
pointed out... many thanks *^_^*
(Life is buried somewhere deep in my closet; don't have Earth nor Ant.
Mmmmm no haiku, this is meant... %)
Hidehiko Ogata
> About the same on this side of the pond. No one in my group of friends
> seemed to know or care who did what as far as games were a concern.
> They all knew the brand names (read: publisher) of course, but never
> who actually responsible for anything... Not even development houses
> being published by somone else (eg. Populace was by EA, NOT Bullfrog).
Maybe my age is showing *^_^*. I started to get into computing just
when EA was promoting their batch of programmers as pseudo pop-stars
(Bill Budge, Will Harvey, Ozark, Freefall et al). Now they have
turned into just another faceless mega-corporation themselves... hmm...
> Doesn't seem to be much better in the PC/Mac/console crowd either.
> Peter Molyneux, Yu Suzuki, etc... Any time I've gotten excited about
> any of thier games coming out I get, "That looks cool, but who's
> <insert name>?" <SIGH>
Sounds all too familiar :(. I suppose it's much tougher to keep track
of names with the production size of today... shame nonetheless.
Peter Olafson
Early Spectrum plans for the Amiga also included ports of the sub sim Gato
and space station sim Orbiter. Neither surfaced. (Nor did Tank, as
mentioned.) Spectrum bailed on the Amiga early on.
Peter
"Bill Silvey" <bxsxixl...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:vwIn8.258391$Dl4.31...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
Phil Davies
"Nathan" <tko...@yahoo.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3C9EA352...@yahoo.co.nz...
>
>
> Phil Davies wrote:
>
> > Angus Manwaring wrote:
>
>
> >>News to me, but they converted Carrier Command didn't they.
>
> >
>
> > They did indeed, however it was missing all the nice 3D bits, sadly.
>
>
> Erm... What was left then? :)
>
> I'm sure I saw screenshots in Zzap64 that had 3d flying around
> screenshots, um, but maybe that was a different reality/lifetime
> or somethink. ;)
Nope, not on the C64. The tank/plane bits were replaced with a 2D top-down
view which wasn't quite the same as the Amiga! For what it is, it's not bad,
but not as spectacular in 2D.
John
"Jeff" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:3C9F2FFE...@nowhere.com...
> Orange wrote:
>
> > On 22 Mar 2002 18:2:7 +0000, "Angus Manwaring"
> > <angus@angusm_ANTISPEM_.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >
>
Would a trackball designed for an atari 2600 work on an amiga?
Eric Haines
>
> Yes. From HOTU:
>
> A highly underrated racing game, Vette! features great graphics, camera
> angle options, and multiplayer.
I actually managed to get ahold of the Mac version, but neither
Shapeshifter nor Fusion will run it. It works OK up until
actually playing, in which case the screen turns to trash. Maybe a
really old MacOS version would work, but I don't have one.
<snip>
> That reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask, just out of
> curiosity. When the awful trackloading and NDOS garbage is removed from the
> various games and they're installed on the HD, are the majority of the games
> themselves then well-behaved? That is, do they run in an intuition screen,
> can you switch back to workbench while they're in the background etc.?
Nope. At least with most of them it seems, you can quit back to
Workbench when you're done.
--Eric
John Burns
>and I think SimAnt was another. I'd have to check on any involvement in Sim
>Earth/Sim Life.
FYI, TDG are credited in Sim Earth but not in Sim Life.
Will Benton
> A good game, but missing that magical Joiner music than lent so much to the
> tone of the original. Perhaps someone could talk Joiner into making the
> source code available. It seems only right that the game appear on the Amiga
> at some point.
That music was great; I still find myself humming it from time to
time. Talin is totally amazing, and a really nice guy. He was a hero
of mine in the 80's. I guess in the last couple of years he's been
coding mostly for BeOS.
A couple of years ago, I asked him if he could release the source for
the original FTA, which I'd just played through on my A1000 to relive
the good old days. (It's amazing how much one remembers....)
The bad news is that apparently he did FTA as a work for hire and
therefore does not own the source. Obviously, this has nothing to do
with FTA2, but I think a lot of games (and otherwise) development is
done that way. Now, if the publisher is amicable to releasing the
source, then great, but that is often not the case.
best,
wb
Jeff
>
> Would a trackball designed for an atari 2600 work on an amiga?
>
I don't know, but the joysticks for the 2600 certainly work on the
Amiga, and Marble Madness recognizes 2 types of trackballs (mouse or
joystick), so if the 2600 trackball works like a joystick I would think
that it would work with Marble Madness too. But I'm just guessing :)
-Jeff
Angus Manwaring
>"Angus Manwaring" <angus@angusm_ANTISPEM_.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:1690.848T2312T8485863angus@angusm_ANTISPEM_.demon.co.uk...
>>
>Yes. From HOTU:
>A highly underrated racing game, Vette! features great graphics, camera
>angle options, and multiplayer. It was, in fact, one of the first racing
>games to offer multiplayer racing via modem,
Well I can live without it, but it sounds like it was fun.
>>
>> Me neither, and I still have it. I think they made a bit of a mess of the
>> graphics though which were so nice in Falcon. Some "PC port-itis was
>> visible. :(
>Believe it or not, Flight of the Intruder's UI was designed to mimic the
>Macintosh UI;
Blimey!
>I found this out when I made the comment in
>comp.sys.ibm-pc.games.flight-sim that the UI seemed to mimic the Amiga. One
>of FOTIs programmers lurked there and popped in to note that they were going
>after a Mac-like interface. I don't recall if he said it was to make it
>Mac-compatible or just something they were trying to do.
Well I really meant the graphics which looked like they were from a
restricted colour, naffly chosen PC range. :)
A shame that after the rather lovely looking Falcon games, we got
something visually not in the same class.
>Anyway, dust that thing off and degrade your system, and give the Mission
>"4th of July Raid" a try, and go bomb Uncle Ho's airfields! :-) A favorite
>of mine was taking CAP missions, but deliberately selecting the A6 and
>arming it with 15 Zuni rocket packs (10 in each pack) and seeing how many
>MiG17's I could bust up using unguided AG rockets in an air-to-air mode :-)
Bill, even if its based entirely on ancient memory, you have to put this
stuff in a review. :)
>>
>That reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask, just out of
>curiosity. When the awful trackloading and NDOS garbage is removed from the
>various games and they're installed on the HD, are the majority of the games
>themselves then well-behaved? That is, do they run in an intuition screen,
>can you switch back to workbench while they're in the background etc.?
Not on WHDLoad (as I understand it), it takes over the system and freezes
all tasks I think. ....but the clock keeps working, something that doesn't
happen here with the already installable (and wonderful) The Settlers.
Bill Silvey
"Angus Manwaring" <angus@angusm_ANTISPEM_.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2667.851T1036T11494399angus@angusm_ANTISPEM_.demon.co.uk...
> On 25-Mar-02 16:47:23, Bill Silvey said
> >"Angus Manwaring" <angus@angusm_ANTISPEM_.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:1690.848T2312T8485863angus@angusm_ANTISPEM_.demon.co.uk...
> >>
> >> Didn't they Spectrum Holobyte also release Vette?
>
> >Yes. From HOTU:
>
> >A highly underrated racing game, Vette! features great graphics, camera
> >angle options, and multiplayer. It was, in fact, one of the first racing
> >games to offer multiplayer racing via modem,
>
> Well I can live without it, but it sounds like it was fun.
Well, the Ami got F1 Grand Prix from Microprose, and like Quake et. al. is
supported in the Amiga community by season managers, track managers etc. -
correct? Either way, all in all you got a better racing game.
> >> Me neither, and I still have it. I think they made a bit of a mess of
the
> >> graphics though which were so nice in Falcon. Some "PC port-itis was
> >> visible. :(
>
> >Believe it or not, Flight of the Intruder's UI was designed to mimic the
> >Macintosh UI;
>
> Blimey!
Yeah, I was shocked, too. More surprised by that (almost) than the *author*
of FotI stepping in to correct my wrong assumption that FotI's UI was a
really shitty WB/Intuition implementation.
> >I found this out when I made the comment in
> >comp.sys.ibm-pc.games.flight-sim that the UI seemed to mimic the Amiga.
One
> >of FOTIs programmers lurked there and popped in to note that they were
going
> >after a Mac-like interface. I don't recall if he said it was to make it
> >Mac-compatible or just something they were trying to do.
>
> Well I really meant the graphics which looked like they were from a
> restricted colour, naffly chosen PC range. :)
I didn't think it looked that bad - but then, I was always a
substance-over-style gamer, even on the Amiga. There were some cases where
conversions (later RPGs from SSI, for example) were so badly out of whack
that I couldn't tell they weren't in EGA, but in general even the "poor"
games were better than their PC contemporaries. Trust me, until you've
heard a PC-speaker trying to squeak out the music for M1 Tank Platoon, you
haven't lived.
> A shame that after the rather lovely looking Falcon games, we got
> something visually not in the same class.
Yeah, Falcon had a lot of things going for it. It was one of the few
high-fidelity* flight sims for the Amiga. The closest anyone got were later
efforts such as Tornado and EF2000 - but they suffered greatly from the
Ami's generally anemic hardware coupled with the expectations of their
creators. That is to say, the flight models in those games were so taxing
that even 040's and 060's had problems keeping acceptable frame-rates. Jet
Pilot was one of those that suffered, too...
OTOH, you had *great* stuff from Microprose like Tank Platoon and Gunship
2000. Wanna hear a goddamn frustrating story about GS2k? One day I was
hacking around in the awsome Battletech:Cresent Hawk's Inception** with a
Hex-editor. Little known fact about BT:TCHI was that if you used a
hex-editor, you could recreate all of the mecha from the Battletech
board-game. Even though weapons like small and medium lasers, machine guns
and short-range missile systems were the only ones *modeled*, all of them
were in the code -just not utilized. So with a tiny bit of tweaking, you
could edit your puny STG-3R "Stinger" into the devastating, 70 ton WHM-4R
WARHAMMER!
Anyway.
Where was I? Oh yes, Gunship 2000 frustration and hex editing. Anyway, I
went traipsing though the Gunship files with a hex editor. Get this: there
was code - CODE, DAMN IT - for things like artillery strikes (that is, you
could call in artillery, and designate precision munitions with your
Apache's laser), air support (specifically, A10's), UAVs to reconnoiter
enemy targets etc.
How do I know they could've done all of this? I own the PC/DOS version of
Gunship 2000. It's all *there*. The code was there in the amiga version,
they just never made it accessable to the game. The routines are all there!
Just no calls to them :-( :-( :-(. The PC version also had a fairly
comprehensive mission/campaign builder, plus two mission disks (Operation
Just Cause in Panama as a historical and a hypothetical Malvinas/Falkland
setting).
Seeing all of those unimplemented features in there was frustrating.
> >Anyway, dust that thing off and degrade your system, and give the Mission
> >"4th of July Raid" a try, and go bomb Uncle Ho's airfields! :-) A
favorite
> >of mine was taking CAP missions, but deliberately selecting the A6 and
> >arming it with 15 Zuni rocket packs (10 in each pack) and seeing how many
> >MiG17's I could bust up using unguided AG rockets in an air-to-air mode
:-)
>
> Bill, even if its based entirely on ancient memory, you have to put this
> stuff in a review. :)
Well, I may dust off the old copy of FotI for DOS I've got floating around
here somewhere and do a compare/contrast - I'm sure seeing certain things
will spark my memory of how they were on the Amiga and I'll be able to write
up a decent review someday.
> >That reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask, just out of
> >curiosity. When the awful trackloading and NDOS garbage is removed from
the
> >various games and they're installed on the HD, are the majority of the
games
> >themselves then well-behaved? That is, do they run in an intuition
screen,
> >can you switch back to workbench while they're in the background etc.?
>
> Not on WHDLoad (as I understand it), it takes over the system and freezes
> all tasks I think. ....but the clock keeps working, something that doesn't
> happen here with the already installable (and wonderful) The Settlers.
Way back when, a friend of mine had a few pirated Amiga games. I seem to
recall they included HD install options on their demo/crack screens. "Yo
Joe!" was one of them (a 2-player platformer, IIRC), but it was fairly
primitive in that it locked the system while you played and didn't let go
until you quit (much as WHDload, I guess, but there was something else
annoying about it...)
*High fidelity for the time. Nowadays, it'd be considered "sim-Lite", not
as bad as a Comanche:Maximum Overkill but not an "IL2 Shturmovik"
**That's one thing I missed on the Ami, and oddly enough never got there in
any other form: The giant robot game (Ralph Reed's admirable Battleforce
aside).
kid...@remoov.wvi.com
>when EA was promoting their batch of programmers as pseudo pop-stars
>(Bill Budge, Will Harvey, Ozark, Freefall et al). Now they have
>turned into just another faceless mega-corporation themselves... hmm...
I remember that. Those foldy "album sleave" type things they used for
their games back then oft had info about the people resposible for the
game inside. I remember the guy on the Bard's Tale box looking the TOTAL
dork... But then most Americans in the 80's did (my self included). :-)
>Sounds all too familiar :(. I suppose it's much tougher to keep track
>of names with the production size of today... shame nonetheless.
Yeah, and it's usually the producer rather than any of the designers/
coders/artists that get their name scrolled across the screen... Or worse
yet some has been actor because he did some voice acting for one of the
characters.
John
"Jeff" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:3CA0803...@nowhere.com...
Obviously, I shall just have to try it and see.
John Burns
>> Angus Manwaring wrote:
>>
>>>Wasn't Piobeer Plague the first HAM game on the Amiga?
>>
>> ****
>>
>> Pio-BEER??!! Well, ok - it IS weekend after all :-)
>>
>> course Links.
>I remember some game called something like Banana Bros, Bonza Bros..
>something like that. A port from an Acorn machine. I believe that was
>the first HAM game.
>- At least that's what it said in the news pages of the magazines back then.
Pioneer Plague (1988) was widely touted in the Amiga mags as the first HAM mode
(4096 colour) game. The other contenders which have been so far touted are later
releases (KotC (1989) and Bonanza Bros (1991)) and therefore must be discounted.
Luke Seager
music anyways :)
"Angus Manwaring" <angus@angusm_ANTISPEM_.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:697.846T538T10794213angus@angusm_ANTISPEM_.demon.co.uk...
> On 21-Mar-02 15:22:29, Kieron Wilkinson said
> >"Seppo Typpo" <gro...@pp.inet.fi> wrote in message
> >news:3C992183.MD-...@pp.inet.fi...
>
>
> >Both of these in the Batman Pack must have sold Amiga's like crazy. Okay,
so
> >Batman alone probably sold a few copies too. I actually quite like that
game
> >even though many people talk down about it. Well, the platform part
anyway!
>
> Hey, I thought the driving bit was pretty darn cool! :)
Peter Olafson
it at all was Mind Walker.
Peter
"John Burns" <jo...@free-online.co.uk> wrote in message
news:858.850T380T...@free-online.co.uk...
Hidehiko Ogata
> Those foldy "album sleave" type things they used for
> their games back then oft had info about the people resposible for the
> game inside.
Yup, I loved that personal touch... simpler days when a game could be
easily associated with a small group, or one individual even :).
(Then again, we still do that to today's big movies... what is the
difference? Is it just perceptive, or something more fundamental?)
> I remember the guy on the Bard's Tale box looking the
> TOTAL dork... But then most Americans in the 80's did (my self
> included). :-)
*LOL* Didn't some of them dress up as game characters too? It was
fun anyway... back then I was a harmless arcade geek myself *^_^*.
> Yeah, and it's usually the producer rather than any of the designers/
> coders/artists that get their name scrolled across the screen... Or
> worse yet some has been actor because he did some voice acting for one
> of the characters.
Argh, just like movies of today... perfect suspense killer. Don't you
hate it when they credit whatever producer/studio TWICE, first by
over-produced flying logo, then again in the opening credits, back to
back? I see they ARE paying the bill, but come on!
Phil Davies
> Not on WHDLoad (as I understand it), it takes over the system and freezes
> all tasks I think. ....but the clock keeps working, something that doesn't
> happen here with the already installable (and wonderful) The Settlers.
Just use a script file to run the game then insert the command SetClock LOAD
after it, which resets the clock to the correct time (from the clock
battery). Easy money!
Phil
kid...@remoov.wvi.com
>easily associated with a small group, or one individual even :).
>(Then again, we still do that to today's big movies... what is the
>difference? Is it just perceptive, or something more fundamental?)
For a while there, I'd get all excited when a game by the brothers who did
Questron would come out (their name escapes me currently). After my third
game oof theirs, I ceased to be excited as I knew that it was going to be
exactly like their others. :-)
>*LOL* Didn't some of them dress up as game characters too? It was
>fun anyway... back then I was a harmless arcade geek myself *^_^*.
Laughable haircut w/ a rat tail, parachute or painter pants, some over
priced t-shirt advertising surf/skate boards... Yup that was me. B-)
I think Richard Garriott was the king of playing dress up. I don't think
that guy ever left his house w/o wearing his Lord British get up. I saw
him in person at a CES when I lived in Vegas, and there he was wandering
from booth to booth in his poofy velvet shirt, tight pants and a crown.
Speaking of Ultima, how come games don't w/ any cool crap (like the ankh,
moon stones. cloth map, etc.)?!? What was it about Ultima 4 that made it
so damn amazing? :-) Why can't Japanese RPG designers (the Grandia team
aside) learn that being able to see monsters approach (and thus maybe
avoid them) rather then "randomly" (read: every 5 seconds) transition from
walk-around mode to battle-hapless-monsters mode for no apparent reason?
<rant><rant> :-)
>Argh, just like movies of today... perfect suspense killer. Don't you
>hate it when they credit whatever producer/studio TWICE, first by
>over-produced flying logo, then again in the opening credits, back to
>back? I see they ARE paying the bill, but come on!
Ah yes... "A John Doe film..." <fade screen> "Produced by John Doe..."
Irritating.
Bill Silvey
<kid...@remoov.wvi.com> wrote in message
news:2077.853T896T...@remoov.wvi.com...
> Speaking of Ultima, how come games don't w/ any cool crap (like the ankh,
> moon stones. cloth map, etc.)?!? What was it about Ultima 4 that made it
> so damn amazing? :-) Why can't Japanese RPG designers (the Grandia team
> aside) learn that being able to see monsters approach (and thus maybe
> avoid them) rather then "randomly" (read: every 5 seconds) transition from
> walk-around mode to battle-hapless-monsters mode for no apparent reason?
> <rant><rant> :-)
That's because (speaking strictly from an RPG game design point of view)
Japanese "RPG" creators make the worst kind of games, hands down full-stop.
Their games are *true* "Role" playing. They've set the role right down to
the script - what you'll say, when you'll do it, and how everyone around you
will react, and what cutscene will play when all of that is over. There is
no "playing" in a Japanese RPG. It's "Welcome to the game, here's your
script." There's no "Ooh, I'll go exploring, this'll be open-ended fun."
I'd be willing to bet Baldur's Gate made Japanese gamers' heads explode :-)
In short, Japanese RPGs are merely a progression from cutscene-to-cutscene;
you the gamer are roped into mashing buttons until the monsters die so you
can see the next anime-styled CGI sequence.
What's worse, as a pen-and-paper RPGer (1st Edition AD&D, as well as others)
I can tell you this style of gaming has infected the PnP RPG world, too.
Everyfreakingbody with a Dungeon Master's Guide thinks they're the next
Robert Jordan or something and they'll be damned if some player's desire to
play a character the way they want to will stand in front of the Dungeon
Master's Great Epic(TM).
</rant>
Sorry about that, it's a touchy subject with me :-)
John Burns
There are a few other games which I've noticed are guilty of this messing with
the clock. However, there are also a few progs on Aminet which reset the clock
correctly and stuff like Facts which checks and adjusts your computers clock
with Atomic ones around the world.
John Burns
></rant>
No probs I totally agree "Role playing" is one thing but there should also be
an element of game in there to make it enjoyable.
kid...@remoov.wvi.com
>Japanese "RPG" creators make the worst kind of games, hands down full-stop.
>Their games are *true* "Role" playing. They've set the role right down to
>the script - what you'll say, when you'll do it, and how everyone around you
>will react, and what cutscene will play when all of that is over. There is
>no "playing" in a Japanese RPG. It's "Welcome to the game, here's your
>script." There's no "Ooh, I'll go exploring, this'll be open-ended fun."
>I'd be willing to bet Baldur's Gate made Japanese gamers' heads explode :-)
I recall specifically NOT knowing where to go next in Ultima and thus
having no real other option but TO explore.
While I'm on this Ultima kick, has anyone tried the Ultima 7 replacement
engine port thingy? How well does it work, and is it worth picking up the
Ultima collection for the PC (~$20) to play it?
Now if they had only done Knights of Legend for the Amiga. <sigh>
>In short, Japanese RPGs are merely a progression from cutscene-to-cutscene;
>you the gamer are roped into mashing buttons until the monsters die so you
>can see the next anime-styled CGI sequence.
I'm playing through Final Fantasy X currently... I'm kind of wondering if
I'll ever actually get to do anything. I mean, there are some sub-games
and there is the required "leveling up" to be done, but all in all it has
pretty much been as you describe so far. When do I get to move around the
map the way I want to, rather than just go from point A to point B? :-/
>What's worse, as a pen-and-paper RPGer (1st Edition AD&D, as well as others)
>I can tell you this style of gaming has infected the PnP RPG world, too.
>Everyfreakingbody with a Dungeon Master's Guide thinks they're the next
>Robert Jordan or something and they'll be damned if some player's desire to
>play a character the way they want to will stand in front of the Dungeon
>Master's Great Epic(TM).
But how do they do the Anime cut scenes? :-)
Phil Davies
> >Just use a script file to run the game then insert the command SetClock
LOAD
> >after it, which resets the clock to the correct time (from the clock
> >battery). Easy money!
>
> There are a few other games which I've noticed are guilty of this messing
with
> the clock. However, there are also a few progs on Aminet which reset the
clock
> correctly and stuff like Facts which checks and adjusts your computers
clock
> with Atomic ones around the world.
I'm sure plenty of people have closed down Settlers only to find their
system clock reckons it's three days ago...
Rick Jones
> Would a trackball designed for an atari 2600 work on an amiga?
Don't know about that. Years ago, after buying Marble Madness and
finding that it REALLY, REALLY needed a trackball to play properly, I
bought a Kensington trackball for the Mac, reverse engineered the
hardware, and hacked it to work with my Amiga. It required a few cuts
and jumpers to the PCB and replacing the ADB cable with one with a DB-9
connector. It still works fine. The right mouse button is set up as a
click on, click off for menus.
--
Rick Jones
Remove the Extra Dot to e-mail me
John Burns
Wimps, I've travelled back in time by weeks using this method. I wonder what
Einstein would have had to say about this? ;)
Hidehiko Ogata
> That's because (speaking strictly from an RPG game design point of
> view) Japanese "RPG" creators make the worst kind of games, hands down
> full-stop. 8< snip >8
> Sorry about that, it's a touchy subject with me :-)
Yeah, I imagined it just might be... 8)
Still, I'd say you are a *little* over-generalizing out of frenzy.
That is, do *all* RPG's have to be open-ended? Are *all* Japanese
RPG's linear?
There are open-ended games, and there are linear ones (not necessarily
limited to RPG's)... each design has its merits, I don't see any need
to knock down on one to enjoy the other. If the player notices the
boundary "rope", or feels the battle sequence accidental, that's just
poor game design; open-ended RPG's can do just as bad, with countless
and pointless battles between minuscule clues.
It is true that many Japanese RPG's tend to be linear. I think it has
much to do with the fact that there was no PnP RPG scene per se in
Japan, until the genre was finally established into public conscious-
ness by Dragon Quest in '86(?) on FamiCom (Japanese NES). Back then,
no casual players knew about Ultima nor Wizardry, not to mention the
traditional PnP RPG (the D&D scene in E.T. puzzled many of us :), so
it had to be easy, accessible, and fun, within the limitation of
FamiCom/NES... thus the form was born.
There *have* been some commendable efforts to push the boundary since
then (have you tried the said DQ series?), but they take great time
and effort (DQ7 took ~6 years!)... hence are overwhelmed by commercial
drecks as you described, which have built-in obsolescence for quick
and easy n+1th sequel (redraw the CGI's, tweak the "battle system",
and there you go). Don't let those admittedly rotten samples fool you
though... you'll miss out on some gems!
Personally I prefer open-ended games myself, and my head is still
intact... haven't played Baldur's Gate yet though (on AmigaOne maybe
:).
Hidehiko Ogata
> For a while there, I'd get all excited when a game by the brothers who
> did Questron would come out (their name escapes me currently). After my
> third game oof theirs, I ceased to be excited as I knew that it was
> going to be exactly like their others. :-)
Hey, they got it right once at least ;).
> Laughable haircut w/ a rat tail, parachute or painter pants, some over
> priced t-shirt advertising surf/skate boards... Yup that was me. B-)
Things that we do in youth... *^_^*
> I think Richard Garriott was the king of playing dress up. I don't
> think that guy ever left his house w/o wearing his Lord British get up.
*LOL* I wonder if he is drifting away into the imaginary Britannia
himself...
> Speaking of Ultima, how come games don't w/ any cool crap (like the
> ankh, moon stones. cloth map, etc.)?!? What was it about Ultima 4 that
> made it so damn amazing? :-)
Ohh baby yeah! I think I had mapped it down to the last square on
AppleII with spiffy Mockingboard soundcard... great one, that.
> Why can't Japanese RPG designers (the
> Grandia team aside) learn that being able to see monsters approach (and
> thus maybe avoid them) rather then "randomly" (read: every 5 seconds)
> transition from walk-around mode to battle-hapless-monsters mode for no
> apparent reason? <rant><rant> :-)
This I suppose goes all the way back to Ultima v.s. Wizardry debate in
the days of yore 8).
Phil Davies
If you can travel back through time, go and ask him! Duhh...
Phil Davies
"Rick Jones" <rick...@extra.lanset.com> wrote in message
news:3CA61F5B...@extra.lanset.com...
Wow, that's dedication for you!
Joona I Palaste
> <kid...@remoov.wvi.com> wrote in message
> news:2077.853T896T...@remoov.wvi.com...
>> Speaking of Ultima, how come games don't w/ any cool crap (like the
ankh,
Is there a verb missing there somewhere?
>> moon stones. cloth map, etc.)?!? What was it about Ultima 4 that made it
>> so damn amazing? :-) Why can't Japanese RPG designers (the Grandia team
>> aside) learn that being able to see monsters approach (and thus maybe
>> avoid them) rather then "randomly" (read: every 5 seconds) transition from
>> walk-around mode to battle-hapless-monsters mode for no apparent reason?
>> <rant><rant> :-)
I agree that in the past, games used to come with nice goodies packed in
the box. I still have the cloth map from Ultima V I got second hand with
my C128D. And there was a party-mask in the box of Space Quest III...
Today people put a CD jewel case in the box and that's it.
> That's because (speaking strictly from an RPG game design point of view)
> Japanese "RPG" creators make the worst kind of games, hands down full-stop.
> Their games are *true* "Role" playing. They've set the role right down to
> the script - what you'll say, when you'll do it, and how everyone around you
> will react, and what cutscene will play when all of that is over. There is
> no "playing" in a Japanese RPG. It's "Welcome to the game, here's your
> script." There's no "Ooh, I'll go exploring, this'll be open-ended fun."
> I'd be willing to bet Baldur's Gate made Japanese gamers' heads explode :-)
> In short, Japanese RPGs are merely a progression from cutscene-to-cutscene;
> you the gamer are roped into mashing buttons until the monsters die so you
> can see the next anime-styled CGI sequence.
I agree with this also. My little brother is totally addicted to Final
Fantasy VIII and IX on the Sony PlayStation. From what I've seen of him
playing it there's plenty of non-controllable dialogue between the
characters and the only time you actually get to DO something is when
you are in combat. And I still can't quite get the hang of the combat
system...
--
/-- Joona Palaste (pal...@cc.helsinki.fi) ---------------------------\
| Kingpriest of "The Flying Lemon Tree" G++ FR FW+ M- #108 D+ ADA N+++|
| http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste W++ B OP+ |
\----------------------------------------- Finland rules! ------------/
"To know me IS to love me."
- JIPsoft
kid...@remoov.wvi.com
>> That's because (speaking strictly from an RPG game design point of
>> view) Japanese "RPG" creators make the worst kind of games, hands down
>> full-stop. 8< snip >8
>> Sorry about that, it's a touchy subject with me :-)
>Yeah, I imagined it just might be... 8)
>Still, I'd say you are a *little* over-generalizing out of frenzy.
>That is, do *all* RPG's have to be open-ended? Are *all* Japanese
>RPG's linear?
No, mostly just the ones from Square. :-) I would agree w/ you, though.
Skies of Arcadia encouraged exploration, for example.
My real bitch, as you know, was random encounters in absurd numbers. :-)
>There are open-ended games, and there are linear ones (not necessarily
>limited to RPG's)... each design has its merits, I don't see any need
>to knock down on one to enjoy the other. If the player notices the
>boundary "rope", or feels the battle sequence accidental, that's just
>poor game design; open-ended RPG's can do just as bad, with countless
>and pointless battles between minuscule clues.
I have played my share of both open ended and linear games, in general the
linear one's have a better story but leave you little option but to go
exactly where they expect you to. It's a trade off, realy... Not
necessarily a reason to condemn one or the other. Grandia was VERY linear
and I liked it quite a bit. Ultima is as open ended as it gets, and I'm
fan of those too.
>It is true that many Japanese RPG's tend to be linear. I think it has
>much to do with the fact that there was no PnP RPG scene per se in
>Japan, until the genre was finally established into public conscious-
>ness by Dragon Quest in '86(?) on FamiCom (Japanese NES). Back then,
>no casual players knew about Ultima nor Wizardry, not to mention the
>traditional PnP RPG (the D&D scene in E.T. puzzled many of us :), so
>it had to be easy, accessible, and fun, within the limitation of
>FamiCom/NES... thus the form was born.
Didn't one of the Ultimas (3 I think) come out for the FamiCom/NES? I had
heard it was quite the success in Japan... Had it's own cartoon and all
that sort of thing.
>There *have* been some commendable efforts to push the boundary since
>then (have you tried the said DQ series?), but they take great time
>and effort (DQ7 took ~6 years!)... hence are overwhelmed by commercial
>drecks as you described, which have built-in obsolescence for quick
>and easy n+1th sequel (redraw the CGI's, tweak the "battle system",
>and there you go). Don't let those admittedly rotten samples fool you
>though... you'll miss out on some gems!
Sort of the state of the industry, IMHO. I miss the days when people
actually produced games because they wanted to make killer games, back
when most the people making them actually played them. But much like
any other industry, corporate execs who care only about profits have
mostly ruined that. So no we sit awash in a sea of sequels, clones and
licensed crap. <sigh>
It's not all bad though... Every once in a hoo something really spiffy/new
shows up, and not every sequel is bad (GTA3 rocks).
kid...@remoov.wvi.com
>> did Questron would come out (their name escapes me currently). After my
>> third game oof theirs, I ceased to be excited as I knew that it was
>> going to be exactly like their others. :-)
>Hey, they got it right once at least ;).
I think the mini-games were the only thing really changed. Legacy of the
Ancients was a HUGE graphical improvment over Questron, but every game
after that was pretty much the same. I mean, come on... Ultima 4 had the
lovely text interface for chatting w/ NPC's, Ultima 5 added daily routines
to the NPC's "lives"... I liked Questron, I really did but not 3 times.
:-)
>> Laughable haircut w/ a rat tail, parachute or painter pants, some over
>> priced t-shirt advertising surf/skate boards... Yup that was me. B-)
>Things that we do in youth... *^_^*
I try not to admit to it. :-)
>> I think Richard Garriott was the king of playing dress up. I don't
>> think that guy ever left his house w/o wearing his Lord British get up.
>*LOL* I wonder if he is drifting away into the imaginary Britannia
>himself...
I wish I had got to talk to him, I suspect he is completely bonkers. :-)
>> Speaking of Ultima, how come games don't w/ any cool crap (like the
>> ankh, moon stones. cloth map, etc.)?!? What was it about Ultima 4 that
>> made it so damn amazing? :-)
>Ohh baby yeah! I think I had mapped it down to the last square on
>AppleII with spiffy Mockingboard soundcard... great one, that.
I used to be able to read and write the U5 runic alphabet... If only my
teachers even suspected what I had written in the margines of my papers.
:-)
>> Why can't Japanese RPG designers (the
>> Grandia team aside) learn that being able to see monsters approach (and
>> thus maybe avoid them) rather then "randomly" (read: every 5 seconds)
>> transition from walk-around mode to battle-hapless-monsters mode for no
>> apparent reason? <rant><rant> :-)
>This I suppose goes all the way back to Ultima v.s. Wizardry debate in
>the days of yore 8).
Indeed, but debate like that usually stemmed from the combat systems of
each in my group of friends. The wargame kid obviously loved the strategic
map style combat in Ultima and the action game kid got irritated when they
added distance to Bard's Tale 2. :-)
You know, even though the BT's, Wizardry's, etc. had the random encounter
factor, I don't recall it being nearly as annoying as todays offerings.
Maybe it was all the mapping I did in said games that made it seem like
there were less encounters or something, but I swear every 3 freakin'
spaces in Breath of Fire/Dragon Warrior/etc you get attacked. It's of
particular irritation when your characters are high level and the monsters
are weak and thus give low experience/gold/etc but for some reason your
characters can't seem to run from them. :-/ Maybe it's just a console
thing. :-)
kid...@remoov.wvi.com
>ankh,
>Is there a verb missing there somewhere?
Oops... "don't COME w/" :-)
>>> moon stones. cloth map, etc.)?!? What was it about Ultima 4 that made it
>>> so damn amazing? :-) Why can't Japanese RPG designers (the Grandia team
>>> aside) learn that being able to see monsters approach (and thus maybe
>>> avoid them) rather then "randomly" (read: every 5 seconds) transition from
>>> walk-around mode to battle-hapless-monsters mode for no apparent reason?
>>> <rant><rant> :-)
>I agree that in the past, games used to come with nice goodies packed in
>the box. I still have the cloth map from Ultima V I got second hand with
>my C128D. And there was a party-mask in the box of Space Quest III...
>Today people put a CD jewel case in the box and that's it.
The Infocom stuff was some of the best, ie the J2000 peril sensitive
sunglasses. B-) I kind of liked Psygnosis' t-shirts.
>> That's because (speaking strictly from an RPG game design point of view)
>> Japanese "RPG" creators make the worst kind of games, hands down full-stop.
>> Their games are *true* "Role" playing. They've set the role right down to
>> the script - what you'll say, when you'll do it, and how everyone around
>> you will react, and what cutscene will play when all of that is over.
>> There is no "playing" in a Japanese RPG. It's "Welcome to the game, here's
>> your script." There's no "Ooh, I'll go exploring, this'll be open-ended
>> fun." I'd be willing to bet Baldur's Gate made Japanese gamers' heads
>> explode :-)
>> In short, Japanese RPGs are merely a progression from cutscene-to-cutscene;
>> you the gamer are roped into mashing buttons until the monsters die so you
>> can see the next anime-styled CGI sequence.
>I agree with this also. My little brother is totally addicted to Final
>Fantasy VIII and IX on the Sony PlayStation. From what I've seen of him
>playing it there's plenty of non-controllable dialogue between the
>characters and the only time you actually get to DO something is when
>you are in combat. And I still can't quite get the hang of the combat
>system...
Some of the games like that tend to lead you around by your hand through
the early stages and then give you more freedom latter in the game. That's
fine for me in the early stages when I have no idea where I want to go,
but later on, I want some freedom. I'm not condemning the FF games mind
you, but it can be a bit irritating to find out that you missed something
in an area, and know that you will never be able to go back there. :-/
You know what would be nice is something like Rogue/ADOM on my GBA (for
when I can't be near my Amiga, like out at a bar :-), but I don't think
your typical console gamer could get their head around it. Even w/ some
graphics I don't think it's likely. Not to say that all console gamers are
eraser heads, but most don't seem to want anything w/ too much depth. I
try not to limit myself, sometimes a mindless SEU is just what I need, and
others I need my brain to engage rather than my reflexes. If it's fun,
it's fun, ya'know? :-)
Then again, Phantasy Star Online was a sort of NetHack-come-action game,
and was quite popular on the Dreamcast, as is Baldur's Gate on the PS2, so
I guess not all hope is lost.
What I REALLY want more than anything is a MMORPG for the Amiga, even if
it's just a port of Ultima Online or Everquest. MUD's are fine when you
can find one that isn't filled w/ social rejects, and while graphics
aren't requirement for me, they are nice. Maybe even something like the
Blade engine w/ TCP/IP support.
Anyone know what Tales of Tamar is like?
Joachim Froholt
kid...@remoov.wvi.com wrote:
> >>> moon stones. cloth map, etc.)?!? What was it about Ultima 4 that made it
> >>> so damn amazing? :-) Why can't Japanese RPG designers (the Grandia team
> >>> aside) learn that being able to see monsters approach (and thus maybe
> >>> avoid them) rather then "randomly" (read: every 5 seconds) transition from
> >>> walk-around mode to battle-hapless-monsters mode for no apparent reason?
> >>> <rant><rant> :-)
>
> >I agree that in the past, games used to come with nice goodies packed in
> >the box. I still have the cloth map from Ultima V I got second hand with
> >my C128D. And there was a party-mask in the box of Space Quest III...
> >Today people put a CD jewel case in the box and that's it.
If you're lucky enough to get a box and not one of those crappy DVD covers! These
days, some companies even have the nerve to present you with manuals in pdf files
only, as they can't be bothered to create a proper version in paper.
>
> The Infocom stuff was some of the best, ie the J2000 peril sensitive
> sunglasses. B-) I kind of liked Psygnosis' t-shirts.
Though they were not quite in the same league, the italian company Simulondo used
to put in collectors pins in their game boxes. Cool :-)
> You know what would be nice is something like Rogue/ADOM on my GBA (for
> when I can't be near my Amiga, like out at a bar :-),
How would you control it? Without a keyboard? I mean, in ADOM, there are two or
three commands per key.. :-)
> but I don't think
> your typical console gamer could get their head around it. Even w/ some
> graphics I don't think it's likely. Not to say that all console gamers are
> eraser heads, but most don't seem to want anything w/ too much depth. I
> try not to limit myself, sometimes a mindless SEU is just what I need, and
> others I need my brain to engage rather than my reflexes. If it's fun,
> it's fun, ya'know? :-)
I know :-)
>
> Then again, Phantasy Star Online was a sort of NetHack-come-action game,
> and was quite popular on the Dreamcast, as is Baldur's Gate on the PS2, so
> I guess not all hope is lost.
>
> What I REALLY want more than anything is a MMORPG for the Amiga, even if
> it's just a port of Ultima Online or Everquest. MUD's are fine when you
> can find one that isn't filled w/ social rejects, and while graphics
> aren't requirement for me, they are nice. Maybe even something like the
> Blade engine w/ TCP/IP support.
That would be very cool, yes. I played Everquest a couple of weeks, and it was
really quite addictive. A bit too addictive, even :-) Unfortunately, a huge lot of
time is spent levelling - i.e. just staying at one particular location and waiting
for suitable enemies to respawn so that you can kill them again and get
experience. While it isn't exactly boring, it is quite a waste of time, really.
This is a sneaky way for the people behind the MMORPG to get you to spend way more
time with the game than you really have to.
Anyway, I'll be trying out Anarchy Online soon. Funcom are sending out game cd's
for free these days, together with a free week of playing time.
Joachim
Bill Silvey
"Hidehiko Ogata" <h...@aqu.bekkoame.ne.jp> wrote in message
news:R2.O2.oI2VFJ...@aqu.bekkoame.ne.jp...
> Bill Silvey wrote:
>
> > That's because (speaking strictly from an RPG game design point of
> > view) Japanese "RPG" creators make the worst kind of games, hands down
> > full-stop. 8< snip >8
>
> > Sorry about that, it's a touchy subject with me :-)
>
> Yeah, I imagined it just might be... 8)
>
> Still, I'd say you are a *little* over-generalizing out of frenzy.
> That is, do *all* RPG's have to be open-ended? Are *all* Japanese
> RPG's linear?
Every one I've seen. The only one I've played that approaches a non-linear
branching system is Xenogears, for the Playstation. I qualify this
statement with "every one I've seen", e.g., that may not mean all Japanese
RPGs.
> There are open-ended games, and there are linear ones (not necessarily
> limited to RPG's)... each design has its merits, I don't see any need
> to knock down on one to enjoy the other. If the player notices the
> boundary "rope", or feels the battle sequence accidental, that's just
> poor game design; open-ended RPG's can do just as bad, with countless
> and pointless battles between minuscule clues.
Ah, you mean all of Square's games ;-)
> It is true that many Japanese RPG's tend to be linear. I think it has
> much to do with the fact that there was no PnP RPG scene per se in
> Japan, until the genre was finally established into public conscious-
> ness by Dragon Quest in '86(?) on FamiCom (Japanese NES). Back then,
> no casual players knew about Ultima nor Wizardry, not to mention the
> traditional PnP RPG (the D&D scene in E.T. puzzled many of us :), so
> it had to be easy, accessible, and fun, within the limitation of
> FamiCom/NES... thus the form was born.
Ah ah ah! No, no no. Sorry. Wizardry was a *huge* hit in Japan, spawning
manga and several cross-platform games. Advanced Dungeons and Dragons gave
birth to "Record of Lodoss War" - the anime is based on stories the author
wrote about his D&D party adventures.
What happened was in the early 80's, AD&D hit Japan and was a mild success
but shortly thereafter better consoles began to show up, and there wasn't
enough of a demand for the D&D stuff, so it rather sank without a trace
(hmm, sound familiar?!).
Check out www.acaeum.com and they go into detail regarding D&D in Japan a
bit.
> There *have* been some commendable efforts to push the boundary since
> then (have you tried the said DQ series?), but they take great time
> and effort (DQ7 took ~6 years!)... hence are overwhelmed by commercial
> drecks as you described, which have built-in obsolescence for quick
> and easy n+1th sequel (redraw the CGI's, tweak the "battle system",
> and there you go). Don't let those admittedly rotten samples fool you
> though... you'll miss out on some gems!
I don't deny there may be some good console RPGs out there...it's just not
to my taste...I've been burned too many times by the FF series :-)
> Personally I prefer open-ended games myself, and my head is still
> intact... haven't played Baldur's Gate yet though (on AmigaOne maybe
BG is a poor example; it's a linear game, too - although it covers it's
tracks well. Keep an eye out for Morrowind; that's a totally open end RPG
due out for the PC in a couple of months; it's supposed to be the cats
pajamas.
kid...@remoov.wvi.com
>> >the box. I still have the cloth map from Ultima V I got second hand with
>> >my C128D. And there was a party-mask in the box of Space Quest III...
>> >Today people put a CD jewel case in the box and that's it.
>If you're lucky enough to get a box and not one of those crappy DVD covers!
>These days, some companies even have the nerve to present you with manuals in
>pdf files only, as they can't be bothered to create a proper version in
>paper.
Isn't that a croc'o'smelly stuff? My printer currently needs a new
developing drum, so how am I suppposed to freakin' print out your stupid
manual, huh? What about the people who don't even HAVE printers? "On-line
documentation" is no replacment for a proper manual in a comercial
product. <grumble>
>>
>> The Infocom stuff was some of the best, ie the J2000 peril sensitive
>> sunglasses. B-) I kind of liked Psygnosis' t-shirts.
>Though they were not quite in the same league, the italian company Simulondo
>used to put in collectors pins in their game boxes. Cool :-)
Yeah, but if I ever wore them, I'm sure that I'd have to explain to
someone that Diabolique is not Euro soft porn. :-)
>> You know what would be nice is something like Rogue/ADOM on my GBA (for
>> when I can't be near my Amiga, like out at a bar :-),
>How would you control it? Without a keyboard? I mean, in ADOM, there are two
>or three commands per key.. :-)
Menus. One of the ways I figured would be nice is displaying three
commands at the bottom of the screen, the one in the middle would be the
active one that you would perform if you pressed A (or B if you like) and
the shoulder buttons woud scroll through the commands.
>> but I don't think
>> your typical console gamer could get their head around it. Even w/ some
>> graphics I don't think it's likely. Not to say that all console gamers are
>> eraser heads, but most don't seem to want anything w/ too much depth. I
>> try not to limit myself, sometimes a mindless SEU is just what I need, and
>> others I need my brain to engage rather than my reflexes. If it's fun,
>> it's fun, ya'know? :-)
>I know :-)
>>
>> Then again, Phantasy Star Online was a sort of NetHack-come-action game,
>> and was quite popular on the Dreamcast, as is Baldur's Gate on the PS2, so
>> I guess not all hope is lost.
>>
>> What I REALLY want more than anything is a MMORPG for the Amiga, even if
>> it's just a port of Ultima Online or Everquest. MUD's are fine when you
>> can find one that isn't filled w/ social rejects, and while graphics
>> aren't requirement for me, they are nice. Maybe even something like the
>> Blade engine w/ TCP/IP support.
>That would be very cool, yes. I played Everquest a couple of weeks, and it
>was really quite addictive. A bit too addictive, even :-) Unfortunately, a
>huge lot of time is spent levelling - i.e. just staying at one particular
>location and waiting for suitable enemies to respawn so that you can kill
>them again and get experience. While it isn't exactly boring, it is quite a
>waste of time, really. This is a sneaky way for the people behind the MMORPG
>to get you to spend way more time with the game than you really have to.
I don't really think so, I mean, you can always level-up off line. I'm
more inclined to see it as a tried and true formula for entertainment...
Do you not like NetHack/Rogue/*band or something? That's all PSO was, and
I suspect FFXI will be... Only multi-player, of course. :-)
Hidehiko Ogata
> >That is, do *all* RPG's have to be open-ended? Are *all* Japanese
> >RPG's linear?
>
> No, mostly just the ones from Square. :-)
Ah, those are just cheap design, I agree :).
Square seem to have lost control with CGI stuff in transition to PS1.
I happened to play their SNES stuff recently (couldn't help it, they
were being thrown away DIRT CHEAP 8)... those were not so bad, really
(although the gradual tightening of the "rope" was already evident).
> My real bitch, as you know, was random encounters in absurd numbers.
> :-)
Bores me to death too :).
(As much as I enjoyed Ultima4, I found its battles rather tedious...
you had to control every character in your party throughout a fight.)
> I have played my share of both open ended and linear games, in general
> the linear one's have a better story but leave you little option but to
> go exactly where they expect you to. It's a trade off, realy... Not
> necessarily a reason to condemn one or the other.
Exactly :). Is A Mind Forever Voyaging worse than Spellbreaker
because of linearness? Battle Squadron better than X-Out because of
branches? I'd much rather enjoy them for what they are (trying
desperately to keep it on topic...)
> Didn't one of the Ultimas (3 I think) come out for the FamiCom/NES? I
> had heard it was quite the success in Japan... Had it's own cartoon and
> all that sort of thing.
I believe so; IIRC the port was more like a free ticket onto the RPG
bandwagon started by DQ's ("the real thing is coming to town!").
I wonder how they managed to map 26 commands onto joypad 8)
> But much like
> any other industry, corporate execs who care only about profits have
> mostly ruined that. So no we sit awash in a sea of sequels, clones and
> licensed crap. <sigh>
So true *double sigh*. Whenever I see the chart (which is not often,
admittedly) 8-9 out of the top 10 selling titles seem to be bloody
sequels. Makes me shake my head in disbelief... too much noise...
> It's not all bad though... Every once in a hoo something really
> spiffy/new shows up, and not every sequel is bad (GTA3 rocks).
Yup. Funny how it always shows, despite all those technological
advances and CGI fireworks, if the designers themselves cared or not.
Too bad it shows only AFTER I spend some time and money! 8)
Hidehiko Ogata
> I think the mini-games were the only thing really changed. Legacy of
> the Ancients was a HUGE graphical improvment over Questron, but every
> game after that was pretty much the same. I mean, come on... Ultima 4
> had the lovely text interface for chatting w/ NPC's, Ultima 5 added
> daily routines to the NPC's "lives"...
Perhaps they simply ran out of ideas :).
But yeah, Ultima's were remarkably good at innovation in that era
(while Wizardry pretty much stayed put technologically). One of the
earliest to support the Mockingboard soundcard on AppleII (U3) too...
still one of the best IMO. Great stuff.
> I liked Questron, I really did but not 3 times. :-)
I've never played any Questron, I have to admit... thought it was just
another "me too" by SSI(?) and passed it on. What did you like about
it? Say, compared to the contemporary Ultima's?
> >Things that we do in youth... *^_^*
>
> I try not to admit to it. :-)
"Fading memory is not a bug, it's a feature!" ;)
> Maybe it was all the mapping I did in said games that made
> it seem like there were less encounters or something, but I swear every
> 3 freakin' spaces in Breath of Fire/Dragon Warrior/etc you get
> attacked. It's of particular irritation when your characters are high
> level and the monsters are weak and thus give low experience/gold/etc
> but for some reason your characters can't seem to run from them. :-/
> Maybe it's just a console thing. :-)
Yeah, the "level raising" stuff... not my cup of tea, but some people
seem to like it.
This was also where DQ/DW's began to shine; it was one of the first
(THE first?) that allowed to befriend with those weeny creatures and
have them fight for your party, magically turning the annoyance into
replay value ("Yo slime, I was looking all over for you.")
(I tend to think that Pokemon ripped the whole idea of friendly
collectible monsters off of DQ's, actually.)
Joachim Froholt
kid...@remoov.wvi.com wrote:
> >> >I agree that in the past, games used to come with nice goodies packed in
> >> >the box. I still have the cloth map from Ultima V I got second hand with
> >> >my C128D. And there was a party-mask in the box of Space Quest III...
> >> >Today people put a CD jewel case in the box and that's it.
>
> >If you're lucky enough to get a box and not one of those crappy DVD covers!
> >These days, some companies even have the nerve to present you with manuals in
> >pdf files only, as they can't be bothered to create a proper version in
> >paper.
>
> Isn't that a croc'o'smelly stuff? My printer currently needs a new
> developing drum, so how am I suppposed to freakin' print out your stupid
> manual, huh? What about the people who don't even HAVE printers? "On-line
> documentation" is no replacment for a proper manual in a comercial
> product. <grumble>
Agreed. I can't remember the last time I bought a budget release that came with a
printed manual.
>
> >>
> >> The Infocom stuff was some of the best, ie the J2000 peril sensitive
> >> sunglasses. B-) I kind of liked Psygnosis' t-shirts.
>
> >Though they were not quite in the same league, the italian company Simulondo
> >used to put in collectors pins in their game boxes. Cool :-)
>
> Yeah, but if I ever wore them, I'm sure that I'd have to explain to
> someone that Diabolique is not Euro soft porn. :-)
:-)
>
> >> You know what would be nice is something like Rogue/ADOM on my GBA (for
> >> when I can't be near my Amiga, like out at a bar :-),
>
> >How would you control it? Without a keyboard? I mean, in ADOM, there are two
> >or three commands per key.. :-)
>
> Menus. One of the ways I figured would be nice is displaying three
> commands at the bottom of the screen, the one in the middle would be the
> active one that you would perform if you pressed A (or B if you like) and
> the shoulder buttons woud scroll through the commands.
Maybe, but there are a few commands to scroll through... :-)
> >>
> >> Then again, Phantasy Star Online was a sort of NetHack-come-action game,
> >> and was quite popular on the Dreamcast, as is Baldur's Gate on the PS2, so
> >> I guess not all hope is lost.
> >>
> >> What I REALLY want more than anything is a MMORPG for the Amiga, even if
> >> it's just a port of Ultima Online or Everquest. MUD's are fine when you
> >> can find one that isn't filled w/ social rejects, and while graphics
> >> aren't requirement for me, they are nice. Maybe even something like the
> >> Blade engine w/ TCP/IP support.
>
> >That would be very cool, yes. I played Everquest a couple of weeks, and it
> >was really quite addictive. A bit too addictive, even :-) Unfortunately, a
> >huge lot of time is spent levelling - i.e. just staying at one particular
> >location and waiting for suitable enemies to respawn so that you can kill
> >them again and get experience. While it isn't exactly boring, it is quite a
> >waste of time, really. This is a sneaky way for the people behind the MMORPG
> >to get you to spend way more time with the game than you really have to.
>
> I don't really think so, I mean, you can always level-up off line.
That's not an option in most games. You can often practice off line, but you can't
advance your character.
> I'm
> more inclined to see it as a tried and true formula for entertainment...
> Do you not like NetHack/Rogue/*band or something?
I do, ADOM is one of my favourite games, ever. But it doesn't really feel the
same. Character advancement is very seldom my main goal when I play ADOM, there's
always a dungeon to explore or a treasure to be found. In Everquest, I logged on
sometimes and all that I did for hours on line was to kill Gnolls so that my
character could reach the next level. It doesn't help that levelling up takes AGES
in Everquest.
> That's all PSO was, and
> I suspect FFXI will be... Only multi-player, of course. :-)
I've played a few light rpg's where the main goal of the game seemed to be
character advancement (first, stay in one sector until you can beat all the
monsters there easily. Then go to the next section and stay there until you can
beat all the monsters there easily. Repeat forever...), and this becomes boring
quickly. Same thing with the levelling in Everquest, only the multiplayer aspect
manages to hide it for a while. That's not to say it isn't addictive (yes, boring
and addictive at the same time..), but I feel it's a bit of a missed oppertunity.
Besides, I do have to pay for all that time online.
Joachim
kid...@remoov.wvi.com
>> >RPG's linear?
>>
>> No, mostly just the ones from Square. :-)
>Ah, those are just cheap design, I agree :).
>Square seem to have lost control with CGI stuff in transition to PS1.
>I happened to play their SNES stuff recently (couldn't help it, they
>were being thrown away DIRT CHEAP 8)... those were not so bad, really
>(although the gradual tightening of the "rope" was already evident).
My guess is they think they HAD to fill the CD/DVD, and instead of adding
more game they decided to just pre-render some crap. :-)
>> My real bitch, as you know, was random encounters in absurd numbers.
>> :-)
>Bores me to death too :).
>(As much as I enjoyed Ultima4, I found its battles rather tedious...
>you had to control every character in your party throughout a fight.)
Yeah, I didn't always like that, once I got some decent ranged weapons and
the monsters were getting tougher, I sure did. :-)
The SSI D&D games you could select the battle system, Ultima style or
Bard's Tale style.
>> I have played my share of both open ended and linear games, in general
>> the linear one's have a better story but leave you little option but to
>> go exactly where they expect you to. It's a trade off, realy... Not
>> necessarily a reason to condemn one or the other.
>Exactly :). Is A Mind Forever Voyaging worse than Spellbreaker
>because of linearness? Battle Squadron better than X-Out because of
>branches? I'd much rather enjoy them for what they are (trying
>desperately to keep it on topic...)
Yes, I must remember that this c.s.AMIGA.g, not say...
c.s.anythingshanehasplayedonanything.g. :-)
I always had mixed feelings about branches in things like platformers or
SEU's. On one hand, it added a new element, and on the other I felt
cheated that I didn't get to see the whole game.
>> Didn't one of the Ultimas (3 I think) come out for the FamiCom/NES? I
>> had heard it was quite the success in Japan... Had it's own cartoon and
>> all that sort of thing.
>I believe so; IIRC the port was more like a free ticket onto the RPG
>bandwagon started by DQ's ("the real thing is coming to town!").
>I wonder how they managed to map 26 commands onto joypad 8)
Curious about that myself, never played the NES version... I was busy
playing on the Amiga. :-)
>> But much like
>> any other industry, corporate execs who care only about profits have
>> mostly ruined that. So no we sit awash in a sea of sequels, clones and
>> licensed crap. <sigh>
>So true *double sigh*. Whenever I see the chart (which is not often,
>admittedly) 8-9 out of the top 10 selling titles seem to be bloody
>sequels. Makes me shake my head in disbelief... too much noise...
Yeah, I kind of like the Hyperion/clickBOOM porting thing in a way. THEY
get to find out which games are actually any good or not and port the good
ones. I don't really have to worry about most Amiga games these days as
they've almost all been very good (ones I was interested in anyway). My
only saving grace w/ my GBA or PS2 is the local games shops' 7 day return
policy. :-)
With all the retro gaming that has been going on of late due to PDA's, GB,
etc. we may just see some upstarts again. Here's hoping anyway. :-)
>> It's not all bad though... Every once in a hoo something really
>> spiffy/new shows up, and not every sequel is bad (GTA3 rocks).
>Yup. Funny how it always shows, despite all those technological
>advances and CGI fireworks, if the designers themselves cared or not.
>Too bad it shows only AFTER I spend some time and money! 8)
Too true. :-/
kid...@remoov.wvi.com
>> I think the mini-games were the only thing really changed. Legacy of
>> the Ancients was a HUGE graphical improvment over Questron, but every
>> game after that was pretty much the same. I mean, come on... Ultima 4
>> had the lovely text interface for chatting w/ NPC's, Ultima 5 added
>> daily routines to the NPC's "lives"...
>Perhaps they simply ran out of ideas :).
Or didn't know how too code a different engine. :-)
>But yeah, Ultima's were remarkably good at innovation in that era
>(while Wizardry pretty much stayed put technologically). One of the
>earliest to support the Mockingboard soundcard on AppleII (U3) too...
>still one of the best IMO. Great stuff.
Yeah, but compared to all the other Ultimas, 3 was SOOO short. Of course,
it did have theives, and wasn't all that Avatar-the-super-wholesome-nice-
man crap. :-)
>> I liked Questron, I really did but not 3 times. :-)
Let's see, IIRC, there was Questron (SSI), then Legacy of the Ancients
(EA), then Questron 2 (SSI), then Legend of Blacksilver (Epyx)... And
I could swear there was one more. <head scratch>
>I've never played any Questron, I have to admit... thought it was just
>another "me too" by SSI(?) and passed it on. What did you like about
>it? Say, compared to the contemporary Ultima's?
Yeah, they were similar I have to admit. The first Questron had vector
dungeons, and the graphics weren't so hot, but it had mini-games for
winning absurd amounts of gold and muskets which were excelent for mowing
down the town guards when you won said absurd amount of gold and the
dealer accused you of cheating. Towns would remember you if you did
something bad in them, and the length of time they remembered you was
directly related to how bad it was. If, for example, you were accused of
cheating and just ran away when the guards were called, you could usually
spend a few turns outside of the town and head back in and everything
would be fine. OTOH, If you fought off every last guard and went and stole
everything you could get your hands on setting foot in that town later
would get you immediately attacked for 100's of turns there after.
Legacy of the Ancients, Questron 2, etc. blew Ultima 1-5 away as far as
graphics and sound were a concern. Ultima had nice music, but the sound
effects were hopless. LotA, Q2, etc. had nice little touches like the
crackling of the torches in the dungeons, the squishy you made walking
through the swamps, and so on. Ultima had that hideous black-background w/
some random pixels thrown on it the suggest grass/water/etc (an artifact
of using the Apple/C=64 monochromatic hi-res modes I suspect). LotA, Q2,
etc. back ground squares where quite a bit more colorful (and thus
prettier) and looked alot less tiled. The dungeon sections of Ultima just
recycled the same images as used for the 2D sections. LotA, etc. had all
new graphics for thier dungeons... blah blah. You get the idea.
LotA, etc. were quite a bit more simple. You were always solo, so there
was no party management. All the commands were in a bar on the side of the
screen, and while there were shortcut keys to them, you didn't have to
remember all of them like you do in Ultima. Interaction w/ NPC's was
limited to at worst the NPC having one or two things he/she could say and
and the best you might get a choice of responses to pick from if the NPC
asked you a question. There were no regents to mix... And so on.
>> >Things that we do in youth... *^_^*
>>
>> I try not to admit to it. :-)
>"Fading memory is not a bug, it's a feature!" ;)
:-)
>> Maybe it was all the mapping I did in said games that made
>> it seem like there were less encounters or something, but I swear every
>> 3 freakin' spaces in Breath of Fire/Dragon Warrior/etc you get
>> attacked. It's of particular irritation when your characters are high
>> level and the monsters are weak and thus give low experience/gold/etc
>> but for some reason your characters can't seem to run from them. :-/
>> Maybe it's just a console thing. :-)
>Yeah, the "level raising" stuff... not my cup of tea, but some people
>seem to like it.
It depends, I'm not opposed to it, but that shouldn't be all there is...
Unless of course you're making something like rogue. :-)
>This was also where DQ/DW's began to shine; it was one of the first
>(THE first?) that allowed to befriend with those weeny creatures and
>have them fight for your party, magically turning the annoyance into
>replay value ("Yo slime, I was looking all over for you.")
Hmmm... Which DW/DQ did that start in?
>(I tend to think that Pokemon ripped the whole idea of friendly
>collectible monsters off of DQ's, actually.)
Why can't someone do an updated Mail Order Monsters... And actually get it
right. I mean, Monster Rancher is a fine game and all, but it wasn't
exactly what I had been hoping for, you know?
kid...@remoov.wvi.com
>> developing drum, so how am I suppposed to freakin' print out your stupid
>> manual, huh? What about the people who don't even HAVE printers? "On-line
>> documentation" is no replacment for a proper manual in a comercial
>> product. <grumble>
>Agreed. I can't remember the last time I bought a budget release that came
>with a printed manual.
If it's one of those 5+ game compilations for like $15 I can usually
forgive them, but when my friend bought Theme Park for her iMac on budget
you had to print the manual yourself.
I find it particularly rude when the manual is for productivity software
and/or some huge beast.
>> >> The Infocom stuff was some of the best, ie the J2000 peril sensitive
>> >> sunglasses. B-) I kind of liked Psygnosis' t-shirts.
>>
>> >Though they were not quite in the same league, the italian company
>> >Simulondo used to put in collectors pins in their game boxes. Cool :-)
>>
>> Yeah, but if I ever wore them, I'm sure that I'd have to explain to
>> someone that Diabolique is not Euro soft porn. :-)
>:-)
>> >> You know what would be nice is something like Rogue/ADOM on my GBA (for
>> >> when I can't be near my Amiga, like out at a bar :-),
>>
>> >How would you control it? Without a keyboard? I mean, in ADOM, there are
>> >two or three commands per key.. :-)
>>
>> Menus. One of the ways I figured would be nice is displaying three
>> commands at the bottom of the screen, the one in the middle would be the
>> active one that you would perform if you pressed A (or B if you like) and
>> the shoulder buttons woud scroll through the commands.
>Maybe, but there are a few commands to scroll through... :-)
Yeah... A few. :-) You could also maybe put a menu under the start or
select buttons.
>> >That would be very cool, yes. I played Everquest a couple of weeks, and it
>> >was really quite addictive. A bit too addictive, even :-) Unfortunately, a
>> >huge lot of time is spent levelling - i.e. just staying at one particular
>> >location and waiting for suitable enemies to respawn so that you can kill
>> >them again and get experience. While it isn't exactly boring, it is quite
>> >a waste of time, really. This is a sneaky way for the people behind the
>> >MMORPG to get you to spend way more time with the game than you really
>> >have to.
>>
>> I don't really think so, I mean, you can always level-up off line.
>That's not an option in most games. You can often practice off line, but you
>can't advance your character.
Ahh... I haven't played much Everquest, so I wasn't completely sure.
>> I'm
>> more inclined to see it as a tried and true formula for entertainment...
>> Do you not like NetHack/Rogue/*band or something?
>I do, ADOM is one of my favourite games, ever. But it doesn't really feel the
>same. Character advancement is very seldom my main goal when I play ADOM,
>there's always a dungeon to explore or a treasure to be found. In Everquest,
>I logged on sometimes and all that I did for hours on line was to kill Gnolls
>so that my character could reach the next level. It doesn't help that
>levelling up takes AGES in Everquest.
See that's when you add cool stuff to locate, like in PSO. I played that
for AGES just I could find a Spread Needle. But if you make gains like
that to few or far between, I think most people will loose interest or
assume it isn't worth their while and give up.
>> That's all PSO was, and
>> I suspect FFXI will be... Only multi-player, of course. :-)
>I've played a few light rpg's where the main goal of the game seemed to be
>character advancement (first, stay in one sector until you can beat all the
>monsters there easily. Then go to the next section and stay there until you
>can beat all the monsters there easily. Repeat forever...), and this becomes
>boring quickly. Same thing with the levelling in Everquest, only the
>multiplayer aspect manages to hide it for a while. That's not to say it isn't
>addictive (yes, boring and addictive at the same time..), but I feel it's a
>bit of a missed oppertunity. Besides, I do have to pay for all that time
>online.
Fair enough. Billing aside, you have to admit that for alot of people it
is a VERY effective formula. Diablo, PSO, etc... I mean, they sort of make
an attempt at a story, but really they're just spiced up Moria. :-) And
there huge successes to boot.
>Joachim
Joachim Froholt
kid...@remoov.wvi.com wrote:
> >> Isn't that a croc'o'smelly stuff? My printer currently needs a new
> >> developing drum, so how am I suppposed to freakin' print out your stupid
> >> manual, huh? What about the people who don't even HAVE printers? "On-line
> >> documentation" is no replacment for a proper manual in a comercial
> >> product. <grumble>
>
> >Agreed. I can't remember the last time I bought a budget release that came
> >with a printed manual.
>
> If it's one of those 5+ game compilations for like $15 I can usually
> forgive them, but when my friend bought Theme Park for her iMac on budget
> you had to print the manual yourself.
That's the standard these days, not the exception. At least over here. It all went
downhill when they started using DVD covers instead of proper boxes.
> I find it particularly rude when the manual is for productivity software
> and/or some huge beast.
I agree. I think they're cheating their customers, because games aren't really
cheaper these days, even thogh production costs have decreased.
> >> >> You know what would be nice is something like Rogue/ADOM on my GBA (for
> >> >> when I can't be near my Amiga, like out at a bar :-),
> >>
> >> >How would you control it? Without a keyboard? I mean, in ADOM, there are
> >> >two or three commands per key.. :-)
> >>
> >> Menus. One of the ways I figured would be nice is displaying three
> >> commands at the bottom of the screen, the one in the middle would be the
> >> active one that you would perform if you pressed A (or B if you like) and
> >> the shoulder buttons woud scroll through the commands.
>
> >Maybe, but there are a few commands to scroll through... :-)
>
> Yeah... A few. :-) You could also maybe put a menu under the start or
> select buttons.
I suppose it could be made easier. Btw, there are a lot of keys that are pretty
useless most of the time.
Agreed.
>
> >> That's all PSO was, and
> >> I suspect FFXI will be... Only multi-player, of course. :-)
>
> >I've played a few light rpg's where the main goal of the game seemed to be
> >character advancement (first, stay in one sector until you can beat all the
> >monsters there easily. Then go to the next section and stay there until you
> >can beat all the monsters there easily. Repeat forever...), and this becomes
> >boring quickly. Same thing with the levelling in Everquest, only the
> >multiplayer aspect manages to hide it for a while. That's not to say it isn't
> >addictive (yes, boring and addictive at the same time..), but I feel it's a
> >bit of a missed oppertunity. Besides, I do have to pay for all that time
> >online.
>
> Fair enough. Billing aside, you have to admit that for alot of people it
> is a VERY effective formula. Diablo, PSO, etc... I mean, they sort of make
> an attempt at a story, but really they're just spiced up Moria. :-) And
> there huge successes to boot.
Yes, you're right. However, in Diablo for example, levelling up isn't all you're
doing, you're constantly exploring a new part of the dungeon, filled with new
items, new treasures and new monsters. This exploring and treasure hunting part
makes all the levelling worthwhile. The problem I've got with Everquest is that
advancing a level takes such an enormous amount of time, and you're not really
exploring or even treasure hunting (unless you get excited about finding gnoll fur
or fire beetle eyes), you'tre simply staying in one location and waiting suitable
monsters to respawn.
This wouldn't be such a problem if playing the game was free, because there's lots
of good stuff in the game, and even levelling up is fun if you've got someone to
cooperate with. But it's so boring when you've played for a couple of hours and
then realize that the most interesting thing that happened to you was that someone
were kind enough to heal you when you were near death in the gnoll cave (which is
where you were the whole time, except when your inventory became full and you had
to take the long walk back to town to sell off your junk).
End of rant (for today :-)
Joachim
Hidehiko Ogata
> > Still, I'd say you are a *little* over-generalizing out of frenzy.
> > That is, do *all* RPG's have to be open-ended? Are *all* Japanese
> > RPG's linear?
>
> Every one I've seen. The only one I've played that approaches a non-
> -linear branching system is Xenogears, for the Playstation. I qualify
> this statement with "every one I've seen", e.g., that may not mean all
> Japanese RPGs.
I'd say you need a finer filter to sift out the junk 8).
> > There are open-ended games, and there are linear ones (not
> > necessarily limited to RPG's)... each design has its merits, I don't
> > see any need to knock down on one to enjoy the other. If the player
> > notices the boundary "rope", or feels the battle sequence accidental,
> > that's just poor game design; open-ended RPG's can do just as bad,
> > with countless and pointless battles between minuscule clues.
>
> Ah, you mean all of Square's games ;-)
You wouldn't slam Bitmap Bros. just by Chaos Engine 2, would you? ;)
As much as I don't like Square's recent offerings, I don't think this
kind of blanket dismission is really called for. They did wonders
on early micros, then on FamiCom/NES, then on SNES... they are
survivors, and I respect them for that (do you know why it was named
"Final Fantasy"?)
> > It is true that many Japanese RPG's tend to be linear. I think it
> > has much to do with the fact that there was no PnP RPG scene per se
> > in Japan, until the genre was finally established into public
> > conscious- ness by Dragon Quest in '86(?) on FamiCom (Japanese NES).
> > Back then, no casual players knew about Ultima nor Wizardry, not to
> > mention the traditional PnP RPG (the D&D scene in E.T. puzzled many
> > of us :), so it had to be easy, accessible, and fun, within the
> > limitation of FamiCom/NES... thus the form was born.
>
> Ah ah ah! No, no no. Sorry. Wizardry was a *huge* hit in Japan,
> spawning manga and several cross-platform games.
Erm, I happend to *live* that era, you see... 8)
Wizardry might very well have been an _eventual_ "huge" hit, but
certainly not before '86 (hence before DQ1). No home micro/console
except FamiCom had market large enough to warrant that notion; it
was just after FamiCom had reached the critical mass with the Super
Mario Bros hysteria in '85... and the FamiCom port of Wiz didn't
appear until '87.
(I highly doubt if any port existed before '86 at all actually, but I
could be wrong on this one.)
> Advanced Dungeons and
> Dragons gave birth to "Record of Lodoss War" - the anime is based on
> stories the author wrote about his D&D party adventures.
>
> What happened was in the early 80's, AD&D hit Japan and was a mild
> success but shortly thereafter better consoles began to show up, and
> there wasn't enough of a demand for the D&D stuff, so it rather sank
> without a trace (hmm, sound familiar?!).
I agree WRT D&D; my point is it never reached the average Hanako's/
Taro's (Jane's/Joe's in Japanese :), the kind of people who bought
FamiCom, their first "computer", just to play SMB. For them, DQ1 was
their very first exposure to RPG. The baby duck syndrome kicked in,
and most players still expect some streamlined plot in RPG's in Japan.
I do prefer open-ended games, but I don't blame them for catering for
common expectation either. Different audience, different approach.
> I don't deny there may be some good console RPGs out there...it's just
> not to my taste...I've been burned too many times by the FF series :-)
Then slam FF's, not Japanese RPG's in general :P.
> > Personally I prefer open-ended games myself, and my head is still
> > intact... haven't played Baldur's Gate yet though (on AmigaOne maybe
>
> BG is a poor example; it's a linear game, too - although it covers it's
> tracks well.
I was referring to *your* notion that "I'd be willing to bet BG made
Japanese gamers' heads explode" :P.
> Keep an eye out for Morrowind; that's a totally open end
> RPG due out for the PC in a couple of months; it's supposed to be the
> cats pajamas.
Everything is *supposed* to be so; too many don't live up to the hype,
that's the problem! ;)
Aaron Brigati
"Joachim Froholt" <jfro...@c2i.net> wrote in message
news:3CAAA9DA...@c2i.net...
> I agree. I think they're cheating their customers, because games aren't
really
> cheaper these days, even thogh production costs have decreased.
Say, WHAT? Game production costs have shot through the ROOF.
Yes, the physical cost of the packaging has decreased.
But the cost of making the games has skyrocketed. Ye Olden Games had a
single person, or a team of a few people. You didn't have 20+ people working
on a single game for five or six years. Get a modern game and watch the
credits. Heck, there are more _artists_ working on most games these days
than total staff on the older ones.
And even with extra costs cut to a minimum, game developers have a hard time
surviving if they don't get a mega-hit. Which is why Electronic Arts and
Infogrames own such a huge percentage of the 'brands' out there.
kid...@remoov.wvi.com
>> forgive them, but when my friend bought Theme Park for her iMac on budget
>> you had to print the manual yourself.
>That's the standard these days, not the exception. At least over here. It all
>went downhill when they started using DVD covers instead of proper boxes.
>> I find it particularly rude when the manual is for productivity software
>> and/or some huge beast.
>I agree. I think they're cheating their customers, because games aren't
>really cheaper these days, even thogh production costs have decreased.
No wonder so many of my friends are pirayes. :-/ I mean, when you don't
get a manual anymore because it's on the disk, what exactly is supposed to
motivate you to pay for it... The box?
>> Yeah... A few. :-) You could also maybe put a menu under the start or
>> select buttons.
>I suppose it could be made easier. Btw, there are a lot of keys that are
>pretty useless most of the time.
This is true, and some paring down wouldn't be the worst thing to happen
to ADOM. God knows *I*can never remember them all.
Think though, 4 player ADOM, even if it were pared down... Yumm.
>> See that's when you add cool stuff to locate, like in PSO. I played that
>> for AGES just I could find a Spread Needle. But if you make gains like
>> that to few or far between, I think most people will loose interest or
>> assume it isn't worth their while and give up.
>Agreed.
>> Fair enough. Billing aside, you have to admit that for alot of people it
>> is a VERY effective formula. Diablo, PSO, etc... I mean, they sort of make
>> an attempt at a story, but really they're just spiced up Moria. :-) And
>> there huge successes to boot.
>Yes, you're right. However, in Diablo for example, levelling up isn't all
>you're doing, you're constantly exploring a new part of the dungeon, filled
>with new items, new treasures and new monsters. This exploring and treasure
>hunting part makes all the levelling worthwhile. The problem I've got with
>Everquest is that advancing a level takes such an enormous amount of time,
>and you're not really exploring or even treasure hunting (unless you get
>excited about finding gnoll fur or fire beetle eyes), you'tre simply staying
>in one location and waiting suitable monsters to respawn. This wouldn't be
>such a problem if playing the game was free, because there's lots of good
>stuff in the game, and even levelling up is fun if you've got someone to
>cooperate with. But it's so boring when you've played for a couple of hours
>and then realize that the most interesting thing that happened to you was
>that someone were kind enough to heal you when you were near death in the
>gnoll cave (which is where you were the whole time, except when your
>inventory became full and you had to take the long walk back to town to sell
>off your junk).
>End of rant (for today :-)
I've played more UO and very little EQ, and UO doesn't to suffer quite as
badly as EQ seems to from what you describe. It it sounds like they've
taken the NetHack/Telenguard/etc formula and removed the hope of getting
that next more powerfull weapon/armour/wand w/ "slay anything now"
ability. :-) That's really what keeps it together for Diablo and PSO,
while leveling is satisfying in itself, it isn't the only thing.
>Joachim
Joachim Froholt
kid...@remoov.wvi.com wrote:
> >> If it's one of those 5+ game compilations for like $15 I can usually
> >> forgive them, but when my friend bought Theme Park for her iMac on budget
> >> you had to print the manual yourself.
>
> >That's the standard these days, not the exception. At least over here. It all
> >went downhill when they started using DVD covers instead of proper boxes.
>
> >> I find it particularly rude when the manual is for productivity software
> >> and/or some huge beast.
>
> >I agree. I think they're cheating their customers, because games aren't
> >really cheaper these days, even thogh production costs have decreased.
>
> No wonder so many of my friends are pirayes. :-/ I mean, when you don't
> get a manual anymore because it's on the disk, what exactly is supposed to
> motivate you to pay for it... The box?
No idea. If a game is old enough to be on budget, there's very little reason
(other than the obvious "stay legal" thing) to buy it if you can get it from a
friend, especially since the manuals are usually available on the net. It's about
time the software companies get their act together, and start caring about their
customers again.
There are some small highlights, though. Patrician II came with a really nice map,
and a very decent manual (and it came in a real box, although the cover image is a
bit tame). Btw, a cool detail with that game is that Tobias Richter's company, The
Light Works, made the intro (which is VERY classy). Remember him from the glory
days of Amiga PD? :-)
>
> >> Yeah... A few. :-) You could also maybe put a menu under the start or
> >> select buttons.
>
> >I suppose it could be made easier. Btw, there are a lot of keys that are
> >pretty useless most of the time.
>
> This is true, and some paring down wouldn't be the worst thing to happen
> to ADOM. God knows *I*can never remember them all.
>
> Think though, 4 player ADOM, even if it were pared down... Yumm.
That sounds like a fantastic idea..
>
> >Yes, you're right. However, in Diablo for example, levelling up isn't all
> >you're doing, you're constantly exploring a new part of the dungeon, filled
> >with new items, new treasures and new monsters. This exploring and treasure
> >hunting part makes all the levelling worthwhile. The problem I've got with
> >Everquest is that advancing a level takes such an enormous amount of time,
> >and you're not really exploring or even treasure hunting (unless you get
> >excited about finding gnoll fur or fire beetle eyes), you'tre simply staying
> >in one location and waiting suitable monsters to respawn. This wouldn't be
> >such a problem if playing the game was free, because there's lots of good
> >stuff in the game, and even levelling up is fun if you've got someone to
> >cooperate with. But it's so boring when you've played for a couple of hours
> >and then realize that the most interesting thing that happened to you was
> >that someone were kind enough to heal you when you were near death in the
> >gnoll cave (which is where you were the whole time, except when your
> >inventory became full and you had to take the long walk back to town to sell
> >off your junk).
>
> >End of rant (for today :-)
>
> I've played more UO and very little EQ, and UO doesn't to suffer quite as
> badly as EQ seems to from what you describe. It it sounds like they've
> taken the NetHack/Telenguard/etc formula and removed the hope of getting
> that next more powerfull weapon/armour/wand w/ "slay anything now"
> ability. :-) That's really what keeps it together for Diablo and PSO,
> while leveling is satisfying in itself, it isn't the only thing.
I must confess that I haven't gotten very far in EverQuest. So I haven't
progressed beyond level 10 or anything. I expect the game is a bit more fun to
play when you get a higher level character and the chance to actually get some of
the cool stuff people are talking about. Also, ofcourse, the potential for
cooperation is amazing in EQ and other games like it, and the times I joined
together with other people were definitely the best times of the game.
I've been playing Anarchy Online a bit now, btw. It's actually very good. It seems
similar to EverQuest in many ways, but also quite different. Very nice to play an
online rpg which isn't all about wizards and dragons and stuff (not that that's so
bad, it's just nice to get something different).
(I could spend a while moaning about the need to download almost 40 mb of patches
before being able to actually play the game, though...)
>
> >Joachim
Joachim Froholt
Aaron Brigati wrote:
> "Joachim Froholt" <jfro...@c2i.net> wrote in message
> news:3CAAA9DA...@c2i.net...
> > I agree. I think they're cheating their customers, because games aren't
> really
> > cheaper these days, even thogh production costs have decreased.
>
> Say, WHAT? Game production costs have shot through the ROOF.
>
> Yes, the physical cost of the packaging has decreased.
That's what I meant. When games started to come in DVD boxes, with thin manuals,
we should have seen a slight decrease in price as a result. They can't treat
games the same way they treat movies and music albums, because they're very
different types of products. If the companies involved in the market can't
afford selling the games in decent boxes with decent manuals, then they should
spend less money developing or advertising their games.
>
> But the cost of making the games has skyrocketed. Ye Olden Games had a
> single person, or a team of a few people. You didn't have 20+ people working
> on a single game for five or six years. Get a modern game and watch the
> credits.Heck, there are more _artists_ working on most games these days
> than total staff on the older ones.
That is true, but it doesn't really change anything. The amount of potential
customers have also skyrocketed.
> And even with extra costs cut to a minimum, game developers have a hard time
> surviving if they don't get a mega-hit. Which is why Electronic Arts and
> Infogrames own such a huge percentage of the 'brands' out there.
A lot could have been different if it was easier for developers to sell their
wares to the public. Unfortunately, only a small percentage of the games in the
PC market ever get sold in shops, and the shops are very selective about what
they want to devote shelf space to (i.e. games with a big licence or lots of
hype surrounding them gets all the space). This means that some games sell very,
very well, while most games are only limited successes.
Joachim
Hidehiko Ogata
> >Square seem to have lost control with CGI stuff in transition to PS1.
>
> My guess is they think they HAD to fill the CD/DVD, and instead of
> adding more game they decided to just pre-render some crap. :-)
Yeah, I guess so... now they've grown obese, and *have* to keep
doing it just not to fall down... a dino on bicycle of sorts 8).
> >(As much as I enjoyed Ultima4, I found its battles rather tedious...
> >you had to control every character in your party throughout a fight.)
>
> Yeah, I didn't always like that, once I got some decent ranged weapons
> and the monsters were getting tougher, I sure did. :-)
The worst was when you mistook one party member for another, and
wasted several turns banging their heads against the dungeon wall
*bonk* *bonk* *bonk* 8).
> The SSI D&D games you could select the battle system, Ultima style or
> Bard's Tale style.
Hey, that's pretty neat!
> I always had mixed feelings about branches in things like platformers
> or SEU's. On one hand, it added a new element, and on the other I felt
> cheated that I didn't get to see the whole game.
Excellent point. You'd feel cheated if you didn't see everything, but
you'd notice the "rope" if everything was laid out so that they *could*
be seen in one go... looks like really tough balance to get right.
In some games I keep going back to last branching point to conciously
choose among available "options", but it takes some fun element away;
I cease to be a player, and become an observer. Hmm...
> >I believe so; IIRC the port was more like a free ticket onto the RPG
> >bandwagon started by DQ's ("the real thing is coming to town!"). I
> >wonder how they managed to map 26 commands onto joypad 8)
>
> Curious about that myself, never played the NES version... I was busy
> playing on the Amiga. :-)
My knowledge of console starts to fade circa '86... you know why ;)
> Yeah, I kind of like the Hyperion/clickBOOM porting thing in a way.
> THEY get to find out which games are actually any good or not and port
> the good ones.
Yup, kinda like later MicroProse ports... poor titles were auto-
matically filtered out, and ported ones tended to have some minor
improvements over the original PC versions. Nice.
> With all the retro gaming that has been going on of late due to PDA's,
> GB, etc. we may just see some upstarts again. Here's hoping anyway. :-)
Yeah, those big dinos really should get a clue from the popularity of
their past titles on handhelds. Then again, maybe not... I prefer
eager upstarts :).
Hidehiko Ogata
> Yeah, but compared to all the other Ultimas, 3 was SOOO short. Of
> course, it did have theives, and wasn't all that Avatar-the-super-
> -wholesome-nice- man crap. :-)
Hehehe :). U3 sure felt small... I rather liked the symmetry of the
world though (everything came in eights IIRC). It was still in U4 all
right, but it tended to be buried in the sheer size of the whole thing.
[Questron]
> Towns would remember you if you did
> something bad in them, and the length of time they remembered you was
> directly related to how bad it was.
I wonder which was the first to do this... U4 was the first in the
Ultima series, wasn't it?
> If, for example, you were accused
> of cheating and just ran away when the guards were called, you could
> usually spend a few turns outside of the town and head back in and
> everything would be fine. OTOH, If you fought off every last guard and
> went and stole everything you could get your hands on setting foot in
> that town later would get you immediately attacked for 100's of turns
> there after.
Nice! Walking past those goons in U4(?) always gave me shivers... one
case where technological limitation helped a game. Were they friendly,
or were they mad at me? I mean, they were FACELESS for crying out
loud! 8)
> Legacy of the Ancients, Questron 2, etc. blew Ultima 1-5 away as far as
> graphics and sound were a concern. 8< snip >8
Yeah, I guess this was where Ultima's betrayed their AppleII origin
(pun quite intended ;). Less colors; scroll in big steps (minimum
screen updates); essential, simple sound effects by on-board speaker;
optional music by soundcard etc.
> LotA, etc. were quite a bit more simple. 8< snip >8
Thanks! It sure is interesting to see that it was not always "bigger,
more realistic, more complex, blablabla"... maybe they found a niche
in simplification.
> >Yeah, the "level raising" stuff... not my cup of tea, but some people
> >seem to like it.
>
> It depends, I'm not opposed to it, but that shouldn't be all there
> is... Unless of course you're making something like rogue. :-)
Some players seem to do it like mad, just to find a plothole i.e. to
beat an enemy that is suppose to be invincible. Some people... 8)
> >This was also where DQ/DW's began to shine; it was one of the first
> >(THE first?) that allowed to befriend with those weeny creatures and
> >have them fight for your party, magically turning the annoyance into
> >replay value ("Yo slime, I was looking all over for you.")
>
> Hmmm... Which DW/DQ did that start in?
Not too sure... it's definitely in 5 (SNES, '92), but I remember seeing
it on FamiCom (maybe as an easter egg?). That would be either 4 ('90)
or even 3 ('88)... my memory might be playing tricks though (could be
later remixes).
> Why can't someone do an updated Mail Order Monsters... And actually get
> it right. I mean, Monster Rancher is a fine game and all, but it wasn't
> exactly what I had been hoping for, you know?
That I guess is because everything has to be pre-modeled/pre-rendered
to the finest detail nowadays, which precludes variation in combina-
tions. I miss abstruct days... (Asteroids, baby! :)
kid...@remoov.wvi.com
>world though (everything came in eights IIRC). It was still in U4 all
>right, but it tended to be buried in the sheer size of the whole thing.
And then came U6, and the incorporation of the towns in to the main main
map, rather than the "zoom in to town when you step on its square" thing
that was typical of RPG's then. I can see what they were trying to do, but
it realy made the game TOO large. There is a fine line between "bigger is
better" and sprawling.
Hmm... I may just have to see about playing some of these again. Can
someone tell me the best C=64 emulator for the Amiga so I don't have to
go dig mine out of my parent's attic to play Ultima 1+2? :-)
>[Questron]
>I wonder which was the first to do this... U4 was the first in the
>Ultima series, wasn't it?
I think Questron had it first, and I'm pretty sure U4 was the first Ultima
that did this.
>Nice! Walking past those goons in U4(?) always gave me shivers... one
>case where technological limitation helped a game. Were they friendly,
>or were they mad at me? I mean, they were FACELESS for crying out
>loud! 8)
LOL! :-D
>Yeah, I guess this was where Ultima's betrayed their AppleII origin
>(pun quite intended ;). Less colors; scroll in big steps (minimum
>screen updates); essential, simple sound effects by on-board speaker;
>optional music by soundcard etc.
Yeah, I remember switching the C64 version to the Amiga version of U3 when
I got my 1000 and thinking that it realy didn't look any better. Hmmm...
64 version: 1 color (not counting the black background) per square, same
resolution vs. Amiga: 3 colors (of the worst palette choices possible) per
square. Needless to say I wasn't impressed. :-)
>Thanks! It sure is interesting to see that it was not always "bigger,
>more realistic, more complex, blablabla"... maybe they found a niche
>in simplification.
Yeah, I agree. Sometimes I feel like I'm playing a managment sim rather
than an RPG w/ some of the newer ones. :-)
>Some players seem to do it like mad, just to find a plothole i.e. to
>beat an enemy that is suppose to be invincible. Some people... 8)
Ahh, I've done that... Back when I was a 12 and that sort of thing was
important to me. :-)
>Not too sure... it's definitely in 5 (SNES, '92), but I remember seeing
>it on FamiCom (maybe as an easter egg?). That would be either 4 ('90)
>or even 3 ('88)... my memory might be playing tricks though (could be
>later remixes).
Hmm... Wonder if those will make it State side for the GBA. Don't think
it's 3 though, as I've finished that one and never saw such a feature.
>> Why can't someone do an updated Mail Order Monsters... And actually get
>> it right. I mean, Monster Rancher is a fine game and all, but it wasn't
>> exactly what I had been hoping for, you know?
>That I guess is because everything has to be pre-modeled/pre-rendered
>to the finest detail nowadays, which precludes variation in combina-
>tions. I miss abstruct days... (Asteroids, baby! :)
Mmmmmmm... Scope displays... Vectrex... Red Baron...
kid...@remoov.wvi.com
>doing it just not to fall down... a dino on bicycle of sorts 8).
Ooh, nice analogy. :-)
>The worst was when you mistook one party member for another, and
>wasted several turns banging their heads against the dungeon wall
>*bonk* *bonk* *bonk* 8).
It's been awhile, but didn't their names highlight in the info box when it
was thier turn? ;-)
>> The SSI D&D games you could select the battle system, Ultima style or
>> Bard's Tale style.
>Hey, that's pretty neat!
I tend to like the tactical route, but must admit that can get old when
you just want to finish a dungeon. So shutting it off can be quite nice.
>> I always had mixed feelings about branches in things like platformers
>> or SEU's. On one hand, it added a new element, and on the other I felt
>> cheated that I didn't get to see the whole game.
>Excellent point. You'd feel cheated if you didn't see everything, but
>you'd notice the "rope" if everything was laid out so that they *could*
>be seen in one go... looks like really tough balance to get right.
>In some games I keep going back to last branching point to conciously
>choose among available "options", but it takes some fun element away;
>I cease to be a player, and become an observer. Hmm...
See, if you can go back that's fine or if it's a "secret" area, OK. What I
hated was when something like Darius with its
D
/
B
/ \
A E
\ /
C
\
F
branchy thing, that the only way to see the other levels was play the game
again. I'm pretty sure I've never seen the whole game. :-/
>> >I believe so; IIRC the port was more like a free ticket onto the RPG
>> >bandwagon started by DQ's ("the real thing is coming to town!"). I
>> >wonder how they managed to map 26 commands onto joypad 8)
>>
>> Curious about that myself, never played the NES version... I was busy
>> playing on the Amiga. :-)
>My knowledge of console starts to fade circa '86... you know why ;)
A little white box w/ a keyboard garage, 3.5" hole in the front and a
rainbow check mark sticker? :-)
>> Yeah, I kind of like the Hyperion/clickBOOM porting thing in a way.
>> THEY get to find out which games are actually any good or not and port
>> the good ones.
>Yup, kinda like later MicroProse ports... poor titles were auto-
>matically filtered out, and ported ones tended to have some minor
>improvements over the original PC versions. Nice.
>> With all the retro gaming that has been going on of late due to PDA's,
>> GB, etc. we may just see some upstarts again. Here's hoping anyway. :-)
>Yeah, those big dinos really should get a clue from the popularity of
>their past titles on handhelds. Then again, maybe not... I prefer
>eager upstarts :).
Yeah, for awhile there, I didn't think a 1-3 man crew would ever see a
comercial release again. I'm glad the portable market seems to have opened
that back up.
kid...@remoov.wvi.com
>(other than the obvious "stay legal" thing) to buy it if you can get it from
>a friend, especially since the manuals are usually available on the net. It's
>about time the software companies get their act together, and start caring
>about their customers again.
Agreed.
>There are some small highlights, though. Patrician II came with a really nice
>map, and a very decent manual (and it came in a real box, although the cover
>image is a bit tame). Btw, a cool detail with that game is that Tobias
>Richter's company, The Light Works, made the intro (which is VERY classy).
>Remember him from the glory days of Amiga PD? :-)
I know the name, but I can't seem to recall any titles he did. Refresh me,
please.
>> >> Yeah... A few. :-) You could also maybe put a menu under the start or
>> >> select buttons.
>>
>> >I suppose it could be made easier. Btw, there are a lot of keys that are
>> >pretty useless most of the time.
>>
>> This is true, and some paring down wouldn't be the worst thing to happen
>> to ADOM. God knows *I*can never remember them all.
>>
>> Think though, 4 player ADOM, even if it were pared down... Yumm.
>That sounds like a fantastic idea..
>> I've played more UO and very little EQ, and UO doesn't suffer quite as
>> badly as EQ seems to from what you describe. It it sounds like they've
>> taken the NetHack/Telenguard/etc formula and removed the hope of getting
>> that next more powerfull weapon/armour/wand w/ "slay anything now"
>> ability. :-) That's really what keeps it together for Diablo and PSO,
>> while leveling is satisfying in itself, it isn't the only thing.
>I must confess that I haven't gotten very far in EverQuest. So I haven't
>progressed beyond level 10 or anything. I expect the game is a bit more fun
>to play when you get a higher level character and the chance to actually get
>some of the cool stuff people are talking about. Also, ofcourse, the
>potential for cooperation is amazing in EQ and other games like it, and the
>times I joined together with other people were definitely the best times of
>the game.
Some of the worst too w/ the wrong party. :-) Too many times has a WAY too
low of a level for the area we were going to individual joined me
expecting me to heal them every three seconds and revive them every minute
cause gawd KNOWS because I'm level 50 I have unlimited money and potions
and crap so why should you be bothered to level up in an easier area like
*I* did because you'll never find any GOOD weapons there hell why don't
you just take my super rare "katana of instant death" right now you lazy
little.... <huff> <huff>
Erm... Sorry. Oh, and constantly asking if you know how to PK the whole
freakin' time. :-)
</rant>
>I've been playing Anarchy Online a bit now, btw. It's actually very good. It
>seems similar to EverQuest in many ways, but also quite different. Very nice
>to play an online rpg which isn't all about wizards and dragons and stuff
>(not that that's so bad, it's just nice to get something different).
>(I could spend a while moaning about the need to download almost 40 mb of
>patches before being able to actually play the game, though...)
Urgh. I think software needs a lemon law. I can't remember how many
patches my friend and I went through to get Magic to work proper.
>> >Joachim
Joachim Froholt
kid...@remoov.wvi.com wrote:
> >There are some small highlights, though. Patrician II came with a really nice
> >map, and a very decent manual (and it came in a real box, although the cover
> >image is a bit tame). Btw, a cool detail with that game is that Tobias
> >Richter's company, The Light Works, made the intro (which is VERY classy).
> >Remember him from the glory days of Amiga PD? :-)
>
> I know the name, but I can't seem to recall any titles he did. Refresh me,
> please.
He did lots of rendered graphics stuff - in some circles, he was as famous as Eric
Shw.. S.. the Amy & Sabrina Online guy.. :-) Anyway, Tobias also did a few games,
including (I think) a pretty popular Star Trek game. He also did Cubulus, an
excellent puzzler that was published by Software 2000 (featuring tons of great
music by Bjørn Lynne).
> >> I've played more UO and very little EQ, and UO doesn't suffer quite as
> >> badly as EQ seems to from what you describe. It it sounds like they've
> >> taken the NetHack/Telenguard/etc formula and removed the hope of getting
> >> that next more powerfull weapon/armour/wand w/ "slay anything now"
> >> ability. :-) That's really what keeps it together for Diablo and PSO,
> >> while leveling is satisfying in itself, it isn't the only thing.
>
> >I must confess that I haven't gotten very far in EverQuest. So I haven't
> >progressed beyond level 10 or anything. I expect the game is a bit more fun
> >to play when you get a higher level character and the chance to actually get
> >some of the cool stuff people are talking about. Also, ofcourse, the
> >potential for cooperation is amazing in EQ and other games like it, and the
> >times I joined together with other people were definitely the best times of
> >the game.
>
> Some of the worst too w/ the wrong party. :-) Too many times has a WAY too
> low of a level for the area we were going to individual joined me
> expecting me to heal them every three seconds and revive them every minute
> cause gawd KNOWS because I'm level 50 I have unlimited money and potions
> and crap so why should you be bothered to level up in an easier area like
> *I* did because you'll never find any GOOD weapons there hell why don't
> you just take my super rare "katana of instant death" right now you lazy
> little.... <huff> <huff>
Ah, you're level 50.. I'll let you know if I ever start playing Everquest again,
perhaps we can team up.. ahem :-)
>
> Erm... Sorry. Oh, and constantly asking if you know how to PK the whole
> freakin' time. :-)
:-)
>
> </rant>
>
> >I've been playing Anarchy Online a bit now, btw. It's actually very good. It
> >seems similar to EverQuest in many ways, but also quite different. Very nice
> >to play an online rpg which isn't all about wizards and dragons and stuff
> >(not that that's so bad, it's just nice to get something different).
>
> >(I could spend a while moaning about the need to download almost 40 mb of
> >patches before being able to actually play the game, though...)
>
> Urgh. I think software needs a lemon law. I can't remember how many
> patches my friend and I went through to get Magic to work proper.
Yes, people who bough Anarchy Online when it first came out would have to download
over 100 mb of patches to keep up. I bet many of them didn't bother... It's
especially annoying with online games, because you can't just decide to go with a
lower version if you want to save time - you have to get the latest version since
that's what the servers run.
I guess, btw, that the constant need of patches is one of the main reasons that
games like this aren't converted to the Amiga - with Freespace and stuff, the job
is pretty much finished when the game hits the stores. Not so with a game like AO
or EQ.
(anyway, I still have to point out that AO is a good game, and that the software
is actually free now (included is one week of free play as well), so it's worth
checking out if you like these games).
>
> >> >Joachim
Joachim Froholt
Hidehiko Ogata wrote:
> > Why can't someone do an updated Mail Order Monsters... And actually get
> > it right. I mean, Monster Rancher is a fine game and all, but it wasn't
> > exactly what I had been hoping for, you know?
>
> That I guess is because everything has to be pre-modeled/pre-rendered
> to the finest detail nowadays, which precludes variation in combina-
> tions. I miss abstruct days... (Asteroids, baby! :)
OT: There's a very nice Asteroids game for the PC - Ultimate Steroids. Kind
of like Stardust but without the tunnel sequences. Anyway, the source code
has been released, so it would probably be possible to port it (there's
allready been a Linux port, I think). Can't remember the website right now,
but any interested programmer-types can do a google search for the game's
title.
Joachim
kid...@remoov.wvi.com
Stardust w/o the awe inspiring tunnel sections? I suppose gone is that
fiendishly difficult gravity mini game. Psh... What's the point, I ask
you? :-)
>Joachim