Amiga owners - their own worst enemies?
Stuart Campbell
Hello again, everyone.
I've just had a read of today's Digitiser letters page.
Oh dear.
If I may, let me first reprint the last page of the column that everyone's
apparently so upset about:
>Now obviously, the previous pages are just a selective snippet of the huge
>dossier of information contained in the survey, which I have just made up
>and which runs to dozens more pages.
>
>Still, I think that the survey, and the reaction to it, tell us more about
>today's gamer than ever before.
>
>Of course, some of it, we might not want to know. But then, that's always
>been the trouble with the truth. It's NOT like a box of chocolates. You
>have to take all of it, or none at all.
Inattentive readers might particularly like to note the last six words of
the second line, which (like the rest) appears here exactly as it was
printed onscreen.
I had a couple of aims in mind when writing the column:
(a) to see how many people were stupid enough to write furious letters of
complaint regarding something they *obviously hadn't actually bothered to
read or understand properly*.
(b) to see if it was only Amiga owners who were such whining sulky little
children.
I didn't do it specifically to upset anyone - that in itself is very very
easy to achieve, as someone seems to have recently proved by posting 1200
lines of "5"s. I did it to make a point, and that point was that if you're
going to hang someone for murder, perhaps it might be wise to check first
and see if anyone's actually been killed.
And the results? Well, according to my Digitiser chums, enough angry
missives from Amiga owners to fill the letters pages well into winter.
Of course, it wasn't just Amiga owners the column appeared to insult - PC,
Playstation, Saturn and N64 owners all got a precisely equal amount of
made-up abuse. N64 fans, for example, were accused of being "spoilt little
rich kids", prone to "crying and sulking". PC owners were labelled
appalling loud-mouthed hypocrites, and so on. Everyone got the same
treatment.
And here are the respective numbers of letters of complaint received as of
today from everyone else:
Playstation owners: 0
Saturn owners: 0
N64 owners: 0
PC owners: 0
Total: 0
Do you see, yet? I've stayed away from this group for a while (and will be
again after this, you'll be glad to hear), but I notice that it appears to
be full of people genuinely believing the Amiga is going to rise again. As
it happens, my opinion differs on that one, but that's irrelevant. The PC
is indescribably horrible, so any new competition to it, however futile, is
fine by me.
But the one guaranteed way to wreck whatever slim chance the Amiga has of
resurrection is to ensure everyone else in the whole wide world of gaming
associates it with a godforsaken bunch of humourless whingers like you lot.
Let me just run the facts past you again - the column slagged off everyone
equally. It pointed out at the end that everything in the preceding pages
was a lie, ramming home the point in the last paragraph by pointing out
that if you want the whole truth, you have to read the whole story. Yet
dozens and dozens of Amiga owners missed the point by a country mile (or
rather, proved the point exactly) and sent in semi-literate streams of
petted-lip invective, calling ME an idiot on the grounds that THEY hadn't
read something properly. Not a single non-Amiga owner felt the need to
follow suit.
Not. A. Single. One.
I wish I could say I was surprised.
You know, no-one else's newsgroups are like this. Not dead machines like
the Spectrum, not semi-dead machines like the Mega Drive, none. No-one else
is even one-tenth this paranoid, witless, petty and just plain dim.
If you want anyone to ever care two arses about the Amiga again, you're
really going to have to try to be a bit more likeable. And if you think
that's rich coming from me, well, I don't have to be likeable - upsetting
cretins is part of my job. But you, you need friends. Desperately.
You're not going the right way about it.
Love,
Stuart.
Andy Davidson
On 19 Aug 1997 17:08:16 Stuart Campbell wrote about "Amiga owners - their own worst enemies?":
[SNIP]
> You know, no-one else's newsgroups are like this. Not dead machines like
> the Spectrum, not semi-dead machines like the Mega Drive, none. No-one else
> is even one-tenth this paranoid, witless, petty and just plain dim.
>
> If you want anyone to ever care two arses about the Amiga again, you're
> really going to have to try to be a bit more likeable. And if you think
> that's rich coming from me, well, I don't have to be likeable - upsetting
> cretins is part of my job. But you, you need friends. Desperately.
>
> You're not going the right way about it.
WHOAH - I actually agree with Stuart on something - scary stuff!! =)
As soon as I read the stuff on Digitiser I thought 'oh god, here we go again'
...
And after hearing about petitions, letters, people complaining to the ITC (!)
it's just amazing that there are so many people that couldn't see they were
proving the point being made.
And the infamous petition uploaded to Aminet managed to make a load of
predictable comments about the PC (see 'hypocritical'), make comments like
'the amiga has risen like a pheonix 3 times' (see 'fantasy'), and go on about
multi-tasking (see 'yawn').
Aside from the fact that Digitiser are a multi-format games mag and there
hasn't exactly been a tidal-wave of Amiga games to review even if they wanted
to.
I guess I can expect a load of ranting like 'piss off, we never liked your
game anyway' which seems to be the favourite phrase on here - witness all the
rubbish Alex Amsel/Silltuna has received just cos he actually has to think
about making a living.
I love the Amiga for what it was, not for what it has become. It has become a
die-hard enthusiasts machine in the same way the 64 was when the Amiga was
real popular. This is fine, but just because you love the Amiga doesn't mean
you can't see things realistically.
And yes, this is being written on an Amiga, and yes I'm still continuing with
WormsDC in my spare time.
Now, why don't we get back to learning important swedish phrases:
#3 - Min store feta far har svalt en gul bil!!
"My huge fat father has swallowed a yellow car!!"
See - alot more productive =)
Andy Davidson
the...@team17.com
Ian Gledhill
Stuart Campbell wrote:
>
> Inattentive readers might particularly like to note the last six words of
> the second line, which (like the rest) appears here exactly as it was
> printed onscreen.
I can`t believe you honestly think that if you make up something
insulting,
then it`s not insulting any more?! If someone says to you that you have
no
life and are a brain-dead decrepit moron with no clue about anything, do
you take it as an insult? I just made that up, so you obviously can't...
> I had a couple of aims in mind when writing the column:
>
> (a) to see how many people were stupid enough to write furious letters of
> complaint regarding something they *obviously hadn't actually bothered to
> read or understand properly*.
From what I`ve seen of it, it was fairly clearly written.
> (b) to see if it was only Amiga owners who were such whining sulky little
> children.
Tell me, are you being insulting here? No, because you never insult
anyone.
I`m an Amiga owner. I didn`t whine. I`m not a child... though sometimes
I think there is a child around here....
> I didn't do it specifically to upset anyone - that in itself is very very
> easy to achieve, as someone seems to have recently proved by posting 1200
> lines of "5"s.
That *is* true, but there will always be people who are hyper-sensitive.
That's not an Amiga trait.
>
> And the results? Well, according to my Digitiser chums, enough angry
> missives from Amiga owners to fill the letters pages well into winter.
> Do you see, yet? I've stayed away from this group for a while (and will be
> again after this, you'll be glad to hear), but I notice that it appears to
> be full of people genuinely believing the Amiga is going to rise again.
People like Gateway 2000? Small, insignificant people, obviously.
> As
> it happens, my opinion differs on that one, but that's irrelevant. The PC
> is indescribably horrible, so any new competition to it, however futile, is
> fine by me.
So for goodness' sake you should be helping us not stabbing
us in the back!
> But the one guaranteed way to wreck whatever slim chance the Amiga has of
> resurrection is to ensure everyone else in the whole wide world of gaming
> associates it with a godforsaken bunch of humourless whingers like you lot.
This is the most insulting post I`ve ever seen that claims not to be
insulting.
The generalizations are really flying around here.
> You know, no-one else's newsgroups are like this. Not dead machines like
> the Spectrum, not semi-dead machines like the Mega Drive, none. No-one else
> is even one-tenth this paranoid, witless, petty and just plain dim.
We're not talking *dead* machines, we're talking the Amiga!
> If you want anyone to ever care two arses about the Amiga again, you're
> really going to have to try to be a bit more likeable. And if you think
> that's rich coming from me, well, I don't have to be likeable - upsetting
> cretins is part of my job. But you, you need friends. Desperately.
Upsetting cretins may be your job (and your hobby by the looks of
things)
but you don't need to upset everyone else.
>
> You're not going the right way about it.
>
I sure as heck am not going to follow your example.
Stuart, I think you need to be enlightened a little as to who Amiga
owners
*really* are.
Over the past few year, we've struggled. All of us, to keep the Amiga
alive.
We've *tried*, and we've had to try blooming hard! Fact is that the
people
who`ve tried so hard to keep this machine going deserve to be proud of
what they've done... standing up against huge companies like MS/Intel is
no mean feat. Granted, there *are* people who are tetchy about the
Amiga
but most of us are just plain vocal. Of course, a small proportion of a
very vocal group is going to be more than a proportion of a silent group
like the other platforms you mentioned. Your tarring us all with the
same
brush, which is both unfair and downright *insulting*.
Stuart, I`m afraid I`m disappointed in what you`ve done. I`d expect more
from someone in the public eye, and I suggest you behave appropriately.
As it stands, I`m afraid you should either open your eyes to the real
world, grow up and face facts, or else just LEAVE US ALONE.
At least Harry Adams had the decency to apologize for generalizing
all Amiga owners. I can`t see you doing that somehow.
--
Ian Gledhill
im...@aber.ac.uk
Ian Gledhill
Andy Davidson wrote:
>
> On 19 Aug 1997 17:08:16 Stuart Campbell wrote about "Amiga owners - their own worst enemies?":
>
> I guess I can expect a load of ranting like 'piss off, we never liked your
> game anyway' which seems to be the favourite phrase on here - witness all the
> rubbish Alex Amsel/Silltuna has received just cos he actually has to think
> about making a living.
Andy, I know you have the sense not to take it to heart.
It only takes a few morons to rant, while the ones who support and/or
under-
stand you stay silent.
There will always be some fools, wherever you go.
>
> I love the Amiga for what it was, not for what it has become. It has become a
> die-hard enthusiasts machine in the same way the 64 was when the Amiga was
> real popular. This is fine, but just because you love the Amiga doesn't mean
> you can't see things realistically.
I love the Amiga for what it is, because it is what you make of it.
To me, the Amiga is the platform that is far superior to the Wintel
machines
(and yes, I *do* own one, I know what I`m talking about). It is a
machine
that is good to use, fun to program and pleasant all round.
The Amiga is not a die-hard enthusiasts machine. The Amiga is the
machine for
people who know better, and that includes myself and you, obviously.
Don't let other idiots spoil *your* enjoyment of the machine.
--
Ian Gledhill
im...@aber.ac.uk
Alan L.M. Buxey
On 19 Aug 1997 17:08:16 GMT ,Stuart Campbell posted the following:
: And the results? Well, according to my Digitiser chums, enough angry
: missives from Amiga owners to fill the letters pages well into winter.
you know why?
Its because its soo easy to get an Amiga onto the Net that even a total
idiot can do it....and therefore, we get total idiots following up on
silly little "informative" journalism.
Its anti-evolutionary. On the PC idiots cant configure their PCs for the
Net and therefore are non-existant........(though i do believe that some
get help, cos they seem to always be posting in the c.s.a.* groups)
Alan
Stuart Campbell
Hans Guijt <hgu...@inter.nl.net> wrote in article
<965.7171...@inter.nl.net>...
> We are always being told that the 'net population isn't representable,
> that we are in fact such a small portion of the total amount of Amiga
> users that we do not count at all. At least, that is what we are being
told
> when we examine the average machine level used by modern Amiga users.
>
> Why would it be any different now? What such a tiny group does surely has
no
> impact on anything! Besides, companies don't go into markets because they
> like the people so much - they tend to go for where the money is. This
has
> been made abundantly clear as well.
>
You'll get nowhere in this business without goodwill, at least not when
you're trying to set up an effectively new platform.
> In other words, drop dead Stuart. We don't need 'friends' like you.
Sorry, Hans. I don't like you either, but with an audience of 1.5 million
every month in Digitiser and regular contribs to trade newspaper CTW, I'm
EXACTLY the kind of friend you DO need.
Tough luck.
Stuart Campbell
GROUT LEN EDWARD <gr...@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> wrote in article
> Funny that the 2 people who are making all this noise about amiga-users
> are with 2 software companies that use to make games for the amiga.
> Of course I could be mistaken, but I believe Stuart Campbell's company
> brought us the likes of cannon Fodder (a great game) and of course Andy's
> company Team17.
> They've moved on to greener pastures yet they monitor our newsgroup.
> And in some instances actually try to discourage us from being
independent
> and using amigas. And that's what the Amiga is all about really, making
> up our own minds. Have ya forgotten that one boys?
> Len
Jesus. Stupider and stupider. It's almost mind-boggling.
Trying to discourage you from using Amigas? I suppose that's why he's one
of the few people in the universe still writing Amiga games, and I'm trying
to stop you from blowing what microscopic chance the Amiga might have left
by making the rest of the world despise everyone and everything connected
with it?
What IS it with you people?
Stuart Campbell
Ian. Wow. You've missed the point by so much, you've almost gone right
round and hit it again from the other side.
Ian Gledhill <im...@nospam.aber.ac.uk> wrote in article
<33FAAC...@nospam.aber.ac.uk>...
>
> I can`t believe you honestly think that if you make up something
> insulting,
> then it`s not insulting any more?! If someone says to you that you have
> no
> life and are a brain-dead decrepit moron with no clue about anything, do
> you take it as an insult? I just made that up, so you obviously can't...
>
Sorry? Care to point out to me where I claimed that the column wasn't
(superficially) insulting? If I say you're a twat and then say that I'm
lying, do you still think I'm calling you a twat? Do you want me to explain
it to you again?
> > I had a couple of aims in mind when writing the column:
> >
> > (a) to see how many people were stupid enough to write furious letters
of
> > complaint regarding something they *obviously hadn't actually bothered
to
> > read or understand properly*.
>
> From what I`ve seen of it, it was fairly clearly written.
>
Thanks. Nice of you to say so.
> > (b) to see if it was only Amiga owners who were such whining sulky
little
> > children.
>
> Tell me, are you being insulting here? No, because you never insult
> anyone.
> I`m an Amiga owner. I didn`t whine. I`m not a child... though sometimes
> I think there is a child around here....
>
Sigh. If someone whines and sulks, is it "insulting" to call them whiny
sulkers? Or just accurate? Answers on a postcard please. To someone else.
> > I didn't do it specifically to upset anyone - that in itself is very
very
> > easy to achieve, as someone seems to have recently proved by posting
1200
> > lines of "5"s.
>
> That *is* true, but there will always be people who are hyper-sensitive.
> That's not an Amiga trait.
For Pete's sake, what does it take to make you people LISTEN? Dozens upon
dozens of Amiga owners wrote in complaining. NOT A SINGLE owner of any
other machine did. Unless I'm missing something fairly major in the logic
department, that's pretty damn conclusive evidence suggesting that it IS an
Amiga trait.
>
> >
> > And the results? Well, according to my Digitiser chums, enough angry
> > missives from Amiga owners to fill the letters pages well into winter.
>
> > Do you see, yet? I've stayed away from this group for a while (and will
be
> > again after this, you'll be glad to hear), but I notice that it appears
to
> > be full of people genuinely believing the Amiga is going to rise again.
>
> People like Gateway 2000? Small, insignificant people, obviously.
>
Sorry again. At what point did I mention anything or anyone being small or
insignificant? (Oh, and I was talking, fairly obviously I thought, about
this newsgroup - hence the use of the words "this group". I haven't seen
many people from Gateway 2000 on here.)
> > As
> > it happens, my opinion differs on that one, but that's irrelevant. The
PC
> > is indescribably horrible, so any new competition to it, however
futile, is
> > fine by me.
>
> So for goodness' sake you should be helping us not stabbing
> us in the back!
>
Don't think so. We tried that on AMIGA POWER for five years and got no
thanks for it, especially not here. I've got no intention of making the
same mistake twice.
> > But the one guaranteed way to wreck whatever slim chance the Amiga has
of
> > resurrection is to ensure everyone else in the whole wide world of
gaming
> > associates it with a godforsaken bunch of humourless whingers like you
lot.
>
> This is the most insulting post I`ve ever seen that claims not to be
> insulting.
> The generalizations are really flying around here.
>
Once again, I don't remember claiming at any point that that comment wasn't
supposed to be insulting.
> > You know, no-one else's newsgroups are like this. Not dead machines
like
> > the Spectrum, not semi-dead machines like the Mega Drive, none. No-one
else
> > is even one-tenth this paranoid, witless, petty and just plain dim.
>
> We're not talking *dead* machines, we're talking the Amiga!
>
A matter of opinion, but in any case that's precisely why I also mentioned
"semi-dead" machines like the Mega Drive. You appear to be quoting me
without reading what you're quoting, Ian.
> > If you want anyone to ever care two arses about the Amiga again, you're
> > really going to have to try to be a bit more likeable. And if you think
> > that's rich coming from me, well, I don't have to be likeable -
upsetting
> > cretins is part of my job. But you, you need friends. Desperately.
>
> Upsetting cretins may be your job (and your hobby by the looks of
> things)
> but you don't need to upset everyone else.
> >
No, I do that bit purely for fun.
> I sure as heck am not going to follow your example.
>
> Stuart, I think you need to be enlightened a little as to who Amiga
> owners
> *really* are.
>
Please don't. I couldn't care less.
> As it stands, I`m afraid you should either open your eyes to the real
> world, grow up and face facts,
Look who's talking.
>
> At least Harry Adams had the decency to apologize for generalizing
> all Amiga owners. I can`t see you doing that somehow.
>
Christ almighty. The only people I attacked were the ones who wrote to
Digitiser and the majority of humourless twits I read on this ng. I'll be
more than happy to apologise just as soon as I get something wrong. Do let
me know.
Until then, try shutting up. You're only making it worse.
Andy Davidson
On 20 Aug 1997 17:20:14 GROUT LEN EDWARD wrote about "Re: Amiga owners - their own worst enemies?":
> Funny that the 2 people who are making all this noise about amiga-users
> are with 2 software companies that use to make games for the amiga.
> Of course I could be mistaken, but I believe Stuart Campbell's company
> brought us the likes of cannon Fodder (a great game) and of course Andy's
> company Team17.
> They've moved on to greener pastures yet they monitor our newsgroup.
> And in some instances actually try to discourage us from being independent
> and using amigas. And that's what the Amiga is all about really, making
> up our own minds. Have ya forgotten that one boys?
Oops - you haven't been paying attention have you.
Apart from the fact I said this is being written on an Amiga and that I am
still continuing WormsDC when i get the time - the updates of which will be
freely available - is this newsgroup solely for people who can't see the
sitation realistically and must believe that everything is all happy and
wonderful.
Can't you see that by carrying on the way you lot do you are giving the impression
that all Amiga owners are complete idiots. When people stop producing Amiga
games, for whatever reason (and there are ALOT of very valid reasons for
doing so, paying the rent being a good one) don't you think it's a bit stupid
to devalue what they have achieved in the past - the most recent example being
Silltuna, and of course we mustn't forget the constant T17 are pure EVIL.
The Amiga needs all the help it can get (a few miracles would go down nicely
as well), and instead of alienating those outside the Amiga, over-reacting in
the extreme to any criticism of the Amiga and slagging off people who for
whatever reason had to leave it, wouldn't it be better to behave in a bit more
constructive manner.
Andy Davidson
the...@team17.com
Angus Manwaring
On Wed, 20 Aug 97, Stuart Campbell wrote:
>
> > In other words, drop dead Stuart. We don't need 'friends' like you.
>
> Sorry, Hans. I don't like you either, but with an audience of 1.5 million
> every month in Digitiser and regular contribs to trade newspaper CTW, I'm
> EXACTLY the kind of friend you DO need.
>
> Tough luck.
Stuart, you're talking nonsense again. Stop it. You have no credibility to
any of Digitizer's viewers as an "Amiga friend". But in my opinion, you're
not really in the business of having credibility, are you?
--
All the best,
Angus Manwaring.
Angus Manwaring
On Wed, 20 Aug 97, Stuart Campbell wrote:
>
> Jesus. Stupider and stupider. It's almost mind-boggling.
>
> Trying to discourage you from using Amigas? I suppose that's why he's one
> of the few people in the universe still writing Amiga games, and I'm trying
> to stop you from blowing what microscopic chance the Amiga might have left
> by making the rest of the world despise everyone and everything connected
> with it?
>
> What IS it with you people?
Perhaps people find it a little rich that you are presenting yourself as
an Amiga saviour. I don't wish to become personal, but surely even you see
that as hypocracy.
Philip Kaulfuss
While I don't really appreciate Stuart stomping around calling people cretins
from time to time, you have to admit he is right sometimes. Not trying to
appear smug here, I've always said that the people who write into Digitiser are
just asking for it.
It's no use trying to convince him (Digitiser) that the Amiga is alive and
well, because all he knows is games and appears to have a rather short
attention span, so therefore anything Amiga-related and/or non-games gets an
(occasionally not wholly deserved) total slagging in reply. e knows that we
hate it when things like that appear on Digitiser, and the same people just
fall for it again and again. Hell, even Mat Bettinson should have known
better... Twice.
After the Amiga-letters-fest of a couple of days ago on Digitiser (which were
deliberately shown to stir things up), all that is going to happen now is reams
of letters from PC/Console idiots saying "Amiga owners must be really sad
whining fools who like playing Tetris (because that's all their dated machines
can handle), and the graphics for Babylon 5 aren't even done on Amigas
anymore", or something similair.
I really wish the previously-mentioned Amigans would just realise that they
can't beat Digitiser, and stop writing embarrasing false rubbish, like "Mac
games such as Tekken 2 are being ported". That made me cringe. As has been
mentioned by someone else recently, if we stop getting led into his stupid
"joke" and feeding Digitiser and its readers with ammunition, there's a good
chance that the hatred will die down. Let's just try it and see, eh?
Don't think for a minute that I'm on Stuart/Digitiser's side here. I hate being
the butt of so many of their jokes just as much as any other proud Amigan. I'm
just being honest. Digitiser's attitude towards the Amiga (which he claims is
non-existent) is wrong, and stinks of male bovine excrement. But I have never,
ever written a 'whining' letter, because I consider myself above all of that
(again, not trying to appear smug).
OK, I tell a (wee) lie: Once I wrote in because of some poor depraved fool who
claimed that Amiga RAM was more expensive than PC RAM. My letter wasn't exactly
nasty, it got shown, and the comment at the bottom read something to the effect
of "This is one of the many letters we recieved regarding the foolishness of
'Stupid Mike'".
I don't know if that comment was meant in a sarcastic way.. Bah, who cares.
--
,---------------.-----------------------.-------------------------------------.
|Philip Kaulfuss|ph...@boehme.demon.co.uk|Graphics artist, currently working on|
;---------------^------------.----------: Adam Lusted's Urban Massacre and |
|PhilK in UnderNet #AmigaCafe|"Creltorp"|Cut and Paste Productions' "The Game"|
;----------------------------^----------^-------------------------------------:
|Visit http://www.boehme.demon.co.uk/ for Amiga stuff, Reeves & Mortimer stuff|
|and lots of other stuff that can't really fit into this already oversized sig|
`-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Guijt
Stuart Campbell wrote:
> If you want anyone to ever care two arses about the Amiga again, you're
> really going to have to try to be a bit more likeable. And if you think
> that's rich coming from me, well, I don't have to be likeable - upsetting
> cretins is part of my job. But you, you need friends. Desperately.
We are always being told that the 'net population isn't representable,
that we are in fact such a small portion of the total amount of Amiga
users that we do not count at all. At least, that is what we are being told
when we examine the average machine level used by modern Amiga users.
Why would it be any different now? What such a tiny group does surely has no
impact on anything! Besides, companies don't go into markets because they
like the people so much - they tend to go for where the money is. This has
been made abundantly clear as well.
In other words, drop dead Stuart. We don't need 'friends' like you.
Likeable? Not likely.
Hans
Alan L.M. Buxey
On 19 Aug 1997 21:09:16 GMT ,Andy Davidson posted the following:
: Aside from the fact that Digitiser are a multi-format games mag and there
: hasn't exactly been a tidal-wave of Amiga games to review even if they wanted
: to.
well, stop whingeing and write a few more ;-)
: And yes, this is being written on an Amiga, and yes I'm still continuing with
: WormsDC in my spare time.
cool.
: #3 - Min store feta far har svalt en gul bil!!
: "My huge fat father has swallowed a yellow car!!"
varfor?
btw, should it be
Min stor fet Far har svalten gul bil ?
Jag har en lilla hund i min hal
: See - alot more productive =)
of course!
alan
Alan L.M. Buxey
On 19 Aug 1997 17:08:16 GMT ,Stuart Campbell posted the following:
: Playstation owners: 0
: Saturn owners: 0
: N64 owners: 0
: PC owners: 0
these stats state a few easy to figure out possibilities.
1) Owners of the above platforms are so stupid, they dont know they're
being insulted
2) Owners of the above platforms dont even read the Digitizer pages
3) Owners of the above platforms dont actually talk to each other, they
dont have any form of online community
4) Owners of playstations, N64's and saturns CANT email you since they
dont have email programs 8-)
Ps since i dont read digitizer, havent done for a long long time, do you
mind giving me the http address - maybe even quote exactly what you said
about Amiga owners....maybe you didnt realize, but perhaps what you said
about us "in general" was actually more personally insulting?
for example, some people dont mind if i make innuendoes against their
mother, whereas others go off the handle if i start making suggestions.
get it?
Alan
Mika Yrj|l{
"Stuart Campbell" <bi...@made.up.com> writes:
> (b) to see if it was only Amiga owners who were such whining sulky little
> children.
One of the very few things I'm sure about is that stupidity is universal.
> And here are the respective numbers of letters of complaint received as of
> today from everyone else:
>
> Playstation owners: 0
> Saturn owners: 0
> N64 owners: 0
Console owners don't post very much unless they have another machine,
I guess ;)
Mika
--
/-------------------------------------------------------------------------\
I Fantasy, Sci-fi, Computers, Marillion, Oldfield, Vangelis, Clannad, Irc I
I Odd Experiences, Worms, Tuna, Synths. See http://www.lut.fi/~myrjola I
\-------------------------------------------------------------------------/
Stuart Campbell
Alan L.M. Buxey <kc...@central.susx.ac.uk> wrote in article
<5tet3f$h...@infa.central.susx.ac.uk>...
> Ps since i dont read digitizer, havent done for a long long time, do you
> mind giving me the http address - maybe even quote exactly what you said
> about Amiga owners....maybe you didnt realize, but perhaps what you said
> about us "in general" was actually more personally insulting?
>
> Its because its soo easy to get an Amiga onto the Net that even a total
> idiot can do it....and therefore, we get total idiots following up on
> silly little "informative" journalism.
>
So, let me just check back here... you haven't read the piece in question,
yet somehow know that it's "silly little journalism"?
Yes?
Have I got that right?
Have I missed something?
Or are you exactly the kind of ignorant knee-jerking twat I was talking
about in the first place?
Tsk.
Stuart Campbell
Mika Yrj|l{ <myr...@mamba.cc.lut.fi> wrote in article
<v9moh6s...@mamba.cc.lut.fi>...
> > (b) to see if it was only Amiga owners who were such whining sulky
little
> > children.
>
> One of the very few things I'm sure about is that stupidity is universal.
Except, as the entire point of the whole thing was to illustrate, it isn't.
It was only you.
> > And here are the respective numbers of letters of complaint received as
of
> > today from everyone else:
> >
> > Playstation owners: 0
> > Saturn owners: 0
> > N64 owners: 0
>
> Console owners don't post very much unless they have another machine,
> I guess ;)
Just one more time - more than half of Digi's letters are sent in on paper.
Or can console owners not write, either?
Keep trying.
Stuart Campbell
Alan L.M. Buxey <kc...@central.susx.ac.uk> wrote in article
> these stats state a few easy to figure out possibilities.
>
> 1) Owners of the above platforms are so stupid, they dont know they're
> being insulted
Sigh.
>
> 2) Owners of the above platforms dont even read the Digitizer pages
>
What, so Digi is exclusively read by 1.5 million Amiga owners?
> 3) Owners of the above platforms dont actually talk to each other, they
> dont have any form of online community
>
Is your news feed broken or something?
> 4) Owners of playstations, N64's and saturns CANT email you since they
> dont have email programs 8-)
>
Many of them DO have access to pen and paper, though.
Useful and constructive observations there, Al. Well done.
> for example, some people dont mind if i make innuendoes against their
> mother, whereas others go off the handle if i start making suggestions.
> get it?
>
Don't think so, no. Explain it to me carefully, using short words.
GROUT LEN EDWARD
Andy Davidson (the...@team17.com) wrote:
I love the Amiga for what it was, not for what it has become. It has become a
: die-hard enthusiasts machine in the same way the 64 was when the Amiga was
real popular. This is fine, but just because you love the Amiga doesn't mean
: you can't see things realistically.
And yes, this is being written on an Amiga, and yes I'm still continuing with
: WormsDC in my spare time.
Funny that the 2 people who are making all this noise about amiga-users
are with 2 software companies that use to make games for the amiga.
Of course I could be mistaken, but I believe Stuart Campbell's company
brought us the likes of cannon Fodder (a great game) and of course Andy's
company Team17.
They've moved on to greener pastures yet they monitor our newsgroup.
And in some instances actually try to discourage us from being independent
and using amigas. And that's what the Amiga is all about really, making
up our own minds. Have ya forgotten that one boys?
Len
--
\ /
\ ~ ~ /
\ * * /
\ /
\ <> /
\ /
\ [] /
Len \ / Jerri
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\/^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Mike Clarke
Stuart, if you don't stop insulting us, I'll scweam and scweam until I'm
sick. <sulk>
MikeC - the comedy end of the argument, and yet also painfully near to
the truth, while also being very mischievous today.
___________________________
MIKE / mi...@popstar.com \ <-Home
/ mike....@psygnosis.co.uk \ <-Work
CLARKE / http://www.sonix.demon.co.uk/ \ <-Web
---------------------------------
Ditto, ditto, ditto, ditto - all of these are words.
Finn Higgins
>> We are always being told that the 'net population isn't representable,
>> that we are in fact such a small portion of the total amount of Amiga
>> users that we do not count at all. At least, that is what we are being
>told
>> when we examine the average machine level used by modern Amiga users.
>>
>> Why would it be any different now? What such a tiny group does surely has
>no
>> impact on anything! Besides, companies don't go into markets because they
>> like the people so much - they tend to go for where the money is. This
>has
>> been made abundantly clear as well.
>>
>You'll get nowhere in this business without goodwill, at least not when
>you're trying to set up an effectively new platform.
Exactly. I've been trying to make the same point in
comp.sys.amiga.programmer :)
>> In other words, drop dead Stuart. We don't need 'friends' like you.
>Sorry, Hans. I don't like you either, but with an audience of 1.5 million
>every month in Digitiser and regular contribs to trade newspaper CTW, I'm
>EXACTLY the kind of friend you DO need.
Spot on :) Want a drink mate :) BTW, I loved Amiga Power :)
>Tough luck.
<sob>
Paul Copsey
Doesn't this thread belong in csa.advocacy?
Paul
Ian Gledhill
Stuart Campbell wrote:
>
> Jesus. Stupider and stupider. It's almost mind-boggling.
>
> What IS it with you people?
Maybe -just Maybe - it's something to do with the fact you've insulted
everyone in this newsgroup?
My psychology's not up to much, but I'm pretty sure that if you insult
someone, they get hostile.... no matter what platform they use.
--
Ian Gledhill
im...@aber.ac.uk
Vinnie P. Rice
Stuart Campbell is right.
I even wrote it on this here desk in the computer lab.
Ian Gledhill
Alan L.M. Buxey wrote:
>
> On 20 Aug 1997 17:29:01 GMT ,Stuart Campbell posted the following:
> : Don't think so, no. Explain it to me carefully, using short words.
>
> ..ooops, sorry, i _forgot_ that you were a journalist 8-P
>
And even *that* is stretching the definition rather.. :-)
--
Ian Gledhill
im...@aber.ac.uk
Hans Guijt
Stuart Campbell (bi...@made.up.com) wrote:
>Sorry, Hans. I don't like you either, but with an audience of 1.5 million
>every month in Digitiser and regular contribs to trade newspaper CTW, I'm
>EXACTLY the kind of friend you DO need.
First of all, I've never seen this Digitiser thing but I understand it is a
computer magazine of some sort. I also understand that it features regular
"Amiga sucks" articles.
Now ponder on this: Amiga owners usually have a _very_ bad time when
confronted by PC users (and in lesser degree, other computer/console users).
This is not because Amiga users are radical (at least, this wasn't
originally the case) but because PC owners NEVER leave off their insults and
slagging and general bullshit.
Only a few weeks ago we had a new guy in the office. He notices the _colors_
of my windows 95 machine (typical C= blue & gray) and starts slagging the
Amiga (which was a bad carreer move, BTW, but that aside). That is the sort
of stuff we have to deal with in daily life. You'll forgive us if we get
somewhat irritated about these kinds of attacks, especially in our own
newsgroups.
Now, and maybe this is wrong, but somehow I don't think we should be sliming
up to a high and mighty 'reporter' like you if the end result is that we get
another barrel of mud thrown in our faces. Especially since most of the
typical English game magazines out there are written by people with the
mental age of 10. Especially since we already know what will happen: another
'poor deluded Amiga owners' piece in whatever crappy publication you happen
to write in at the time.
Whining about how you want a bit more respect from the people you have
insulted again and again isn't going to work. We already know where
digitizer stands wrp. the Amiga, and we strongly suspect that nothing we say
can change that. Your attitude in this newsgroup makes that very clear.
Oh Stuart, I noticed you didn't address any of my arguments. Not that I
expected differently from you - scanning through your messages I only find
insults and slagging, and not a single bit of useful or well-founded
criticism. Take this article for instance:
%From: Stuart Campbell <bi...@made.up.com>
%Subject: Re: Amiga owners - their own worst enemies?
%Date: Wed, 20 Aug 97 20:31:00
%Jesus. Stupider and stupider. It's almost mind-boggling.
Now maybe this style works in English computer games journalism but it is
considered highly insulting everywhere else.
%Trying to discourage you from using Amigas? I suppose that's why he's one
%of the few people in the universe still writing Amiga games, and I'm trying
%to stop you from blowing what microscopic chance the Amiga might have left
%by making the rest of the world despise everyone and everything connected
%with it?
Andy does some minor updates in his spare time to an admittedly nice game. I
wouldn't consider him 'one of the few people in the universe still writing
Amiga games', just a friendly hobbyist.
And if you are really trying to 'stop us from blowing what microscopic
chance the Amiga might have left' I don't understand your strategy. Calling
us stupid all the time just makes us aggressive.
%What IS it with you people?
What it is? We come here to read about Amiga games, not to be called idiots.
That's what it is.
Hans
Alan L.M. Buxey
On 20 Aug 1997 17:29:01 GMT ,Stuart Campbell posted the following:
: What, so Digi is exclusively read by 1.5 million Amiga owners?
maybe - how can you find out though? seems to me that Amiga owners tend
to take more interest in the goings on of the rest of the computer world
than most other groups (probably as part of the "great conspiracy theory"?)
: Is your news feed broken or something?
i read other groups, i find very little intra-user platform support.
: Many of them DO have access to pen and paper, though.
pen? paper? what are these extrenal peripherals? :-)
: Useful and constructive observations there, Al. Well done.
as usual 8-)
: Don't think so, no. Explain it to me carefully, using short words.
..ooops, sorry, i _forgot_ that you were a journalist 8-P
Alan
Mika Yrj|l{
"Stuart Campbell" <bi...@made.up.com> writes:
> For Pete's sake, what does it take to make you people LISTEN? Dozens upon
> dozens of Amiga owners wrote in complaining. NOT A SINGLE owner of any
> other machine did. Unless I'm missing something fairly major in the logic
> department, that's pretty damn conclusive evidence suggesting that it IS an
> Amiga trait.
Hm, at least part of those letters came because there was a posting
about Digi in at least comp.sys.amiga.advocacy which presented the
stuff that had been in Digi in less than favourable light and
suggested people to write complaints. I won't comment how close it was
to the reality because I do not read Digi, though.
Stuart Campbell
>
> First of all, I've never seen this Digitiser thing but I understand it is
a
> computer magazine of some sort. I also understand that it features
regular
> "Amiga sucks" articles.
>
So, once more, criticism from someone who, literally, doesn't know what
they're talking about. I've personally been writing for Digi for about 18
months and in that time it hasn't, in fact, run a SINGLE "Amiga sucks"
article. Amiga owners get stick now and again, along with everyone else,
probably a little more because they're so whiny and easily upset. Facts.
Proven.
> You'll forgive us if we get
> somewhat irritated about these kinds of attacks, especially in our own
> newsgroups.
>
For goodness' sake, I didn't "attack" anyone. I posted a message pointing
out that everyone complaining to Digi about a particular piece was
completely missing (and proving) the point, and maybe they should stop and
think about their approach for a moment.
> Now, and maybe this is wrong, but somehow I don't think we should be
sliming
> up to a high and mighty 'reporter' like you if the end result is that we
get
> another barrel of mud thrown in our faces. Especially since most of the
> typical English game magazines out there are written by people with the
> mental age of 10. Especially since we already know what will happen:
another
> 'poor deluded Amiga owners' piece in whatever crappy publication you
happen
> to write in at the time.
>
Ooh, where to start? You can put it in quotes all you want, but Reporter is
what it says on my NUJ Press card. "High and mighty" is entirely in your
own mind (the Paranoia Dept, natch). Most games mags written by subnormal
illiterates? No argument from me, there. "Another poor deluded Amiga owners
piece"? Well, stop deluding yourselves, then.
Oh, and believe me, the very last thing in the world I want is the likes of
you "sliming up" to me.
> Whining about how you want a bit more respect from the people you have
> insulted again and again isn't going to work. We already know where
> digitizer stands wrp. the Amiga, and we strongly suspect that nothing we
say
> can change that. Your attitude in this newsgroup makes that very clear.
>
I didn't, at any point, ask for or demand any "respect", Hans. I'm only
interested in the respect of people I respect myself, and you're not in
that group. I think you missed the point, surprisingly - I said you needed
friends *like* me, people with influence in, and access to, mass media. Not
me specifically. I wasn't offering. I've had more than enough whiny Amiga
owners for one lifetime.
As for Digi, though, you're your own worst enemy. I despair of your
constant assertions of what Digi is and isn't about, given that you've
already admitted you DON'T READ THE DAMN THING and hence have ABSOLUTELY NO
IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. Digi has never, ever, printed any articles
slagging the Amiga - any insults have been directed at Amiga *owners*, and
quite frankly you usually ask for it.
> Oh Stuart, I noticed you didn't address any of my arguments. Not that I
> expected differently from you - scanning through your messages I only
find
> insults and slagging, and not a single bit of useful or well-founded
> criticism. Take this article for instance:
>
The only point I noticed you making was that no-one listened to the net
community anyway, which was such obvious tosh that I couldn't be bothered.
Still, if you must - where else is the voice of the Amiga community heard?
Not in the Amiga press, obviously, which no-one else buys. The net, and
public media like Digi, therefore, is the rest of the world's only
barometer of the state of things. If all they hear is cretinously stupid
whinging, they're likely to think that Amiga owners are all cretinous
stupid whingers.
> %Jesus. Stupider and stupider. It's almost mind-boggling.
>
> Now maybe this style works in English computer games journalism but it is
> considered highly insulting everywhere else.
>
Good. It was supposed to be insulting. What on Earth gives you the idea
that I would call someone "mind-bogglingly stupid" and not mean it as an
insult?
> %Trying to discourage you from using Amigas? I suppose that's why he's
one
> %of the few people in the universe still writing Amiga games, and I'm
trying
> %to stop you from blowing what microscopic chance the Amiga might have
left
> %by making the rest of the world despise everyone and everything
connected
> %with it?
>
> Andy does some minor updates in his spare time to an admittedly nice
game. I
> wouldn't consider him 'one of the few people in the universe still
writing
> Amiga games', just a friendly hobbyist.
>
Given the general state of the market, I'd say relatively speaking that
practically makes him Barbara Cartland.
> And if you are really trying to 'stop us from blowing what microscopic
> chance the Amiga might have left' I don't understand your strategy.
Calling
> us stupid all the time just makes us aggressive.
>
You've got this completely backwards. I called you stupid because of the
aggressively stupid response I got to a calm and reasoned point, namely
that it's daft to complain about something you haven't read or understood.
How much simpler can I make all of this?
> %What IS it with you people?
>
> What it is? We come here to read about Amiga games, not to be called
idiots.
> That's what it is.
>
I go out on a Friday night to have fun, not to get arrested. Therefore, I
don't get pissed and hit people in the face with bottles. Actions have
consequences. Don't want to be called an idiot? Stop acting like one.
Remember, I only came here in response to the angry letters to Digi, to
defend myself and clarify my point. You started it, not me - the article
was specifically designed only to be responded to by idiots. That was the
whole point.
Stuart Campbell
> Alan L.M. Buxey wrote:
> >
> > On 20 Aug 1997 17:29:01 GMT ,Stuart Campbell posted the following:
>
> >
> > ..ooops, sorry, i _forgot_ that you were a journalist 8-P
> >
Ooh, that's me told. Ouch.
Kyzer
Hurrah, for 'tis said that Stuart Campbell did write:
: Sorry, Hans. I don't like you either, but with an audience of 1.5 million
: every month in Digitiser and regular contribs to trade newspaper CTW, I'm
: EXACTLY the kind of friend you DO need.
Silly sausage, this is an Amiga group. They don't care about Digitiser or
CTW because it's entirely unimportant to them.
Besides, you're just a loudmouth who craves attention. At least you're good
at that, otherwise you'd be a bit crap really.
What can I say - it's your chosen career, good luck with it.
But don't assume anyone in the world cares, because they don't.
--
Stuart 'Kyzer' Caie, Aberdeen University, Scotland. Email to: ky...@4u.net
My opinions are not those of Aberdeen University, and I do not speak for or
on behalf of AUCC.
..100% Amiga, forever!.. http://www.abdn.ac.uk/~u13sac/
--
Random sig of the day:
"Don't let worry kill you. Let the Church help."
Stuart Campbell
Angus Manwaring <An...@angusm.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
> >
> > Tough luck.
>
> Stuart, you're talking nonsense again. Stop it. You have no credibility
to
> any of Digitizer's viewers as an "Amiga friend". But in my opinion,
you're
> not really in the business of having credibility, are you?
>
Dunno, Angus. How much do *you* get paid to offer your opinions to the
nation?
How many million people read *you* every month?
I'm on about 2.5, if you're asking.
(Never claimed to be an "Amiga friend", either. Just offered some
constructive criticism, as an experiment. Read the original post again.)
Stuart Campbell
Angus Manwaring <An...@angusm.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
> Perhaps people find it a little rich that you are presenting yourself as
> an Amiga saviour. I don't wish to become personal, but surely even you
see
> that as hypocracy.
>
I agree with you, Angus, in as far as it would indeed be rank hypocrisy if
that was what I was doing.
However, all I was, in fact, doing was pointing out the crass stupidity of
a large number of people, and the inadvisability of the Amiga community's
current approach to building a bridge back to the mainstream computing
world.
My personal opinions on the future or otherwise of the Amiga have always, I
think, been clear enough. General idiocy, on the other hand, is a much
wider topic.
However it might come across (and here I don't really care, so don't bother
pointing it out), I bear no malice to the Amiga or the Amiga community.
Only to cretins. And frankly, I'm at a loss to think of another word to
describe people who start furious petitions complaining about something
that nobody ever actually said.
Or threatening to sue someone about it.
Go on, ask me about that one.
You'll laugh.
Stuart Campbell
Kyzer <junk...@sysa.abdn.ac.uk> wrote in article
<5ti2ds$n9b$1...@info.abdn.ac.uk>...
>
> Silly sausage, this is an Amiga group. They don't care about Digitiser or
> CTW because it's entirely unimportant to them.
>
Stu. Stuey. Love. You've only gone and missed the point again, dear. The
whole thing we're talking about is how the Amiga community presents itself
*to the outside world*. Everyone's banging on about how they want the Amiga
to make it big again. You're not, I presume, planning on achieving that
purely on the strength of sales to the couple of hundred people who read
this newsgroup?
Or have you just not been reading properly, hm?
> Besides, you're just a loudmouth who craves attention. At least you're
good
> at that, otherwise you'd be a bit crap really.
>
Oh no! Rumbled! My wife's going to kill me!
> What can I say - it's your chosen career, good luck with it.
> But don't assume anyone in the world cares, because they don't.
>
Guess you're right there, Stu. Do write again sometime.
Stuart Campbell
Nice one, Phil. I don't care if you think I'm a wanker or not, at least
you've got the point.
Philip Kaulfuss <ph...@boehme.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
> It's no use trying to convince him (Digitiser) that the Amiga is alive
and
> well, because all he knows is games
Not strictly true, that. But this *is* a games group, isn't it?
> and appears to have a rather short
> attention span, so therefore anything Amiga-related and/or non-games gets
an
> (occasionally not wholly deserved) total slagging in reply. e knows that
we
> hate it when things like that appear on Digitiser, and the same people
just
> fall for it again and again. Hell, even Mat Bettinson should have known
> better... Twice.
>
And you only know half of the story...
> After the Amiga-letters-fest of a couple of days ago on Digitiser (which
were
> deliberately shown to stir things up), all that is going to happen now is
reams
> of letters from PC/Console idiots saying "Amiga owners must be really sad
> whining fools who like playing Tetris (because that's all their dated
machines
> can handle), and the graphics for Babylon 5 aren't even done on Amigas
> anymore", or something similair.
>
You see, everyone? Do you get it yet?
> I really wish the previously-mentioned Amigans would just realise that
they
> can't beat Digitiser, and stop writing embarrasing false rubbish, like
"Mac
> games such as Tekken 2 are being ported". That made me cringe. As has
been
> mentioned by someone else recently, if we stop getting led into his
stupid
> "joke" and feeding Digitiser and its readers with ammunition, there's a
good
> chance that the hatred will die down. Let's just try it and see, eh?
>
Got to be worth a try, I'd have thought. One thing - the column wasn't a
joke. I'm never more serious than when pointing out cretinous stupidity. I
truly believe it's the most dangerous and evil thing in the world. Satire
is a weapon, not an end in itself.
> Don't think for a minute that I'm on Stuart/Digitiser's side here. I hate
being
> the butt of so many of their jokes just as much as any other proud
Amigan. I'm
> just being honest. Digitiser's attitude towards the Amiga (which he
claims is
> non-existent) is wrong, and stinks of male bovine excrement. But I have
never,
> ever written a 'whining' letter, because I consider myself above all of
that
> (again, not trying to appear smug).
>
Just when you were doing so well, too. Imagine what you like, but Digi
really does have NO "attitude" towards the Amiga. Only stupid whiny Amiga
owners. Honestly, if you had to read shedloads of it day after day like
Digi does, you'd end up being pretty sarcastic too.
> OK, I tell a (wee) lie: Once I wrote in because of some poor depraved
fool who
> claimed that Amiga RAM was more expensive than PC RAM. My letter wasn't
exactly
> nasty, it got shown, and the comment at the bottom read something to the
effect
> of "This is one of the many letters we recieved regarding the foolishness
of
> 'Stupid Mike'".
>
> I don't know if that comment was meant in a sarcastic way.. Bah, who
cares.
>
You're letting a bit of latent Amiga-owner paranoia sneak in there, Phil.
Don't let them get to you.
Yr pal,
Stuart.
Stuart Campbell
Gareth Y <gar...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote in article
<1155.717...@netcomuk.co.uk>...
> Oh, now now Stuart. Perhaps he learned that you had something to do with
this
> "journalism" and therefore, given your platinum reputation as a
journalist he
> realised - "What other kind of journalism could this be?". Well, several
> types really, but none of them are positive in any way. The magazine
with
> attitude. An editor that persistantly insults his readers.
I'm sorry, I just don't understand this one at all. Sorry.
Angus Manwaring
On Thu, 21 Aug 97, Stuart Campbell wrote:
>
>
> Angus Manwaring <An...@angusm.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
> > >
> > > Tough luck.
> >
> > Stuart, you're talking nonsense again. Stop it. You have no credibility
> to
> > any of Digitizer's viewers as an "Amiga friend". But in my opinion,
> you're
> > not really in the business of having credibility, are you?
> >
>
>
> Dunno, Angus. How much do *you* get paid to offer your opinions to the
> nation?
>
> How many million people read *you* every month?
>
> I'm on about 2.5, if you're asking.
Am I supposed to be impressed? Does the phrase "Eat dog poo, 2.5 million
flies can't be wrong" ring a bell?
--
All the best,
Angus Manwaring.
Angus Manwaring
On Thu, 21 Aug 97, Stuart Campbell wrote:
> Hans Guijt <hgu...@inter.nl.net> wrote in article
> <3286.717...@inter.nl.net>...
>
> >
> > First of all, I've never seen this Digitiser thing but I understand it is
> a
> > computer magazine of some sort. I also understand that it features
> regular
> > "Amiga sucks" articles.
> >
>
> So, once more, criticism from someone who, literally, doesn't know what
> they're talking about. I've personally been writing for Digi for about 18
> months and in that time it hasn't, in fact, run a SINGLE "Amiga sucks"
> article. Amiga owners get stick now and again, along with everyone else,
> probably a little more because they're so whiny and easily upset. Facts.
> Proven.
Sorry Stuart, saying "Facts. Proven" after a a completely inaccurate
statement does not magically make it become accurate. You're talking
drivel, man. Mind you, I suppose everyone is good at something.
Philip Kaulfuss
Christ. You would have thought that everyone had learned not to bother taking
issue with Stuart Campbell by now. ;P Many of the postings in this thread are
pretty much proof of Campbell/Digitiser's claims that so many Amiga users are
"whiners". You're doing exactly the reason that they've been slagging us off
for so long! Obviously, I'm not blaming everyone but there are still people who
just can't realise they're being taken for a ride.
--
,---------------.-----------------------.-------------------------------------.
|Philip Kaulfuss|ph...@boehme.demon.co.uk|Graphics artist, currently working on|
;---------------^------------.----------: Adam Lusted's Urban Massacre and |
|PhilK in UnderNet #AmigaCafe|"Creltorp"|Cut and Paste Productions' "The Game"|
;----------------------------^----------^-------------------------------------:
|Visit http://www.boehme.demon.co.uk/ for Amiga stuff, Reeves & Mortimer stuff|
|and lots of other stuff that can't really fit into this already oversized sig|
`-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
GROUT LEN EDWARD
Andy Davidson (the...@team17.com) wrote:
: > Of course I could be mistaken, but I believe Stuart Campbell's company
: > brought us the likes of cannon Fodder (a great game) and of course Andy's
: > company Team17.
: Oops - you haven't been paying attention have you.
Actually it's the other way around.
: Apart from the fact I said this is being written on an Amiga and that I am
: still continuing WormsDC when i get the time - the updates of which will be
: freely available - is this newsgroup solely for people who can't see the
: sitation realistically and must believe that everything is all happy and
: wonderful.
I'm sorry did I say that Team17 and Sensible software should go screw
themselves and I never liked your games anyway? No I did not. I fully
understand why you guys are focusing elsewhere, you need to pay the bills.
We all do. However working on WormsDC doesn't really change anything.
For me anyway. Now if you said you were working on a PPC version of Alien
Breed, well then I'd be ranting and raving, but I'm sure we all know of the
chances of that happening.
And sure we see the situation for what it is. I for one stand
up against tyranny in all its forms. If that means walking on uncertain
grounds fine, more power to me. I for one don't appreciate you or Stuart
insulting amiga-users on this group. Sure you have your reasons.
My point is this, why? Why do you bother throwing insults at us? Do you
feel we are responsible for you having to leave the Amiga to make a living
elsewhere?
: Can't you see that by carrying on the way you lot do you are
giving the impression
: that all Amiga owners are complete idiots.
When people stop producing Amiga
: games, for whatever reason (and there are ALOT of ver
y valid reasons for
: doing so, paying the rent being a good one) don't you think
it's a bit stupid
: to devalue what they have achieved in the pa
: The Amiga needs all the help it can get (a few miracles would go down nicely
as well), and instead of alienating those outside the Amiga, over-reacting in
: the extreme to any criticism of the Amiga and slagging off people who for
whatever reason had to leave it, wouldn't it be better to behave in a bit more
: constructive manner.
Well I agree with you Andy, but it seems Stuart doesn't think the amiga has
a chance and it seemed earlier you agreed with him even though you were
using an amiga. I have liked every game I've gotten from team17 and for
awhile thought that you were the only company still doing games for the
Amiga. Well then someone from your company said this is it the last game from
Team17 and it appeared and still does that Clickboom and Vulcan are the
only big ones left.
Ahhh take it as you will, go ahead Stuart call me an Idiot. I'm only
trying to be civil. I guess you can't be a little understanding and
that's understandable.
Hang in there Andy anyway, big things are a coming whether you want to
believe or not. AHhhh go have a brewskie Stuart on the house, and peace
to you both.
Ian Gledhill
>
> > and therefore, we get total idiots following up on
> > silly little "informative" journalism.
> >
>
> So, let me just check back here... you haven't read the piece in question,
> yet somehow know that it's "silly little journalism"?
>
Plus the albeit silly petition on the Aminet...
Most of us know what was said in that article, like it or not.
--
Ian Gledhill
im...@aber.ac.uk
Ian Gledhill
> >
> > 1) Owners of the above platforms are so stupid, they dont know they're
> > being insulted
>
> Sigh.
perhaps?
> > 4) Owners of playstations, N64's and saturns CANT email you since they
> > dont have email programs 8-)
> >
>
> Many of them DO have access to pen and paper, though.
>
And who would bother to snail-mail you and waste 20p of good money
on a stamp?
--
Ian Gledhill
im...@aber.ac.uk
Ian Gledhill
Andy Davidson wrote:
>
> On 20 Aug 1997 17:20:14 GROUT LEN EDWARD wrote about "Re: Amiga owners - their own worst enemies?":
>
> > Funny that the 2 people who are making all this noise about amiga-users
> > are with 2 software companies that use to make games for the amiga.
> > brought us the likes of cannon Fodder (a great game) and of course Andy's
> > company Team17.
> > And in some instances actually try to discourage us from being independent
> > and using amigas. And that's what the Amiga is all about really, making
> > up our own minds. Have ya forgotten that one boys?
>
>
> still continuing WormsDC when i get the time - the updates of which will be
> freely available - is this newsgroup solely for people who can't see the
> sitation realistically and must believe that everything is all happy and
> wonderful.
This newsgroup isn't solely for any type of person.
The firebrands around here are on their own, they're just more vocal and
show up more.
> The Amiga needs all the help it can get (a few miracles would go down nicely
> as well), and instead of alienating those outside the Amiga, over-reacting in
> the extreme to any criticism of the Amiga and slagging off people who for
> whatever reason had to leave it, wouldn't it be better to behave in a bit more
> constructive manner.
I completely agree with you.
--
Ian Gledhill
im...@aber.ac.uk
Ian Gledhill
Stuart Campbell wrote:
>
> Sorry, Hans. I don't like you either, but with an audience of 1.5 million
> every month in Digitiser and regular contribs to trade newspaper CTW, I'm
> EXACTLY the kind of friend you DO need.
>
No we don't.
We need friends who are responsible, can discuss things without
resorting
to calling everyone else 'Stupid' at every opportunity, who can present
a reasoned, logical argument and carry things through smoothly, with
minimum hassle and maximum effectiveness.
We also need friends who work for COMPUTER magazines, not console ones
(which rules out the 1.5 million Digitiser readers you *claim* to have)
and someone who can convince people that the Amiga is a worthy machine.
I haven`t seen your 'regular' contributions to CTW, so I can't and won't
comment on that, but if it's like your postings on here I`m surprised
that CTW still have any readers.
Go insult someone else. We're tired of it.
You've made your point.
--
Ian Gledhill
im...@aber.ac.uk
Mika Yrj|l{
"Stuart Campbell" <bi...@made.up.com> writes:
>
> Mika Yrj|l{ <myr...@mamba.cc.lut.fi> wrote in article
> <v9moh6s...@mamba.cc.lut.fi>...
>
> > > (b) to see if it was only Amiga owners who were such whining sulky
> little
> > > children.
> >
> > One of the very few things I'm sure about is that stupidity is universal.
>
>
> Except, as the entire point of the whole thing was to illustrate, it isn't.
> It was only you.
No, I consider everyone who presses the key or button which leads to
reply to be my compmanion in stupidity. Luckily most of it is just
harmless kind of stupidity.
> Just one more time - more than half of Digi's letters are sent in on paper.
> Or can console owners not write, either?
Some of them can't, but they are a minority.
> Keep trying.
Always.
Accolyte
=> For Pete's sake, what does it take to make you people LISTEN?
=> Dozens upon dozens of Amiga owners wrote in complaining. NOT
=> A SINGLE owner of any other machine did. Unless I'm missing
=> something fairly major in the logic department, that's pretty
=> damn conclusive evidence suggesting that it IS an Amiga trait.
<snip>
> > And who would bother to snail-mail you and waste 20p of good money
> > on a stamp?
>
> About half of all Digi correspondents.
Well I'd guess that most of the knee-jerk reactions come
through email, if only because it takes less effort to
write that way. By the time you put pen to paper, you've
usually calmed down.
That'd explain why most (or all) of the whining/complaints
come from computer owners who get insulted and not from
the console owners, who aren't usually interested in email
(or able to work out how to send it.. ;-) )
Now a Playstation owner still has a wonderful market.
As if he'd care when you tell him Playstations are
underpowered. When you say the same thing to an
Amiga owner, at least for now, it's closer to the
truth. I think it's pretty understandable if Amiga
owners are oversensitive.
But that's not to say the people who wrote in to you were
justified. I don't think they were at all; especially the
ones who didn't bother to read the article... But anyway,
all things considered it's pretty pointless using that to
reflect on Amiga users in general.
-- __ ____ __ __ ____
/ "\ /\/\\__"\ / "\ / "\ /\\__"\
Accolyte/Cydonia / / // / // / // / // / // // ' / Packing Class
(Coder) / /\/ > // / // / // / // // / /__ And Kickin'Ass!
\__/ \_/ \__/ \__/ \/\/ \/ \/\/ \/
begin 644 PGPPublicKey
MAAPAASDKHTSHON;AE02U2#!@!`!C1`F50@U=*K)'01:-6-74Q-@/0E&A"-,3$
M:PL@^I/,C9L;MC<$MJ@`;$'<"/TC5`_TJEG[-C0%L_\`-:]0`6K)EGJZ:L`$(
M!PSMQGH9TGHF9AI@2)$$N@8]NLT:AUJG735J8TJE)'J)$DFFTU,Q(ZDLC9:-J
&)]\`$@``8
``
end
Mika Yrj|l{
Philip Kaulfuss <ph...@boehme.demon.co.uk> writes:
> : Console owners don't post very much unless they have another machine,
> : I guess ;)
>
> Well, the console owners that are able to read and write can still write to
> Digitiser using "snail-mail" (another unnecessarily over-used term).
Hmm, I guess I've became too computerized myself, just noticed that I
haven't sent any snailmail during this year, only e-mail. (Except
forms to various bureaus, they seem to be so left behind that can only
be reached with that old junk ;)
MIka
Stuart Campbell
Angus Manwaring <An...@angusm.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
> Sorry Stuart, saying "Facts. Proven" after a a completely inaccurate
> statement does not magically make it become accurate. You're talking
> drivel, man. Mind you, I suppose everyone is good at something.
> --
>
Er, isn't this entire thread about the fact that the Digi column proved it?
Stuart Campbell
Nope, you're just supposed to realise that poor-quality jibes about "no
credibility" don't really cut the mustard when aimed at someone who gets
paid to offer their opinions to millions of people every month. Especially
when you don't.
After all, having millions of people read you and pay attention to what you
say... isn't that kinda the definition of "credibility"?
Espen Berntsen
On 21 Aug 1997 20:12:04 GMT, "Stuart Campbell" <bi...@made.up.com>
wrote:
>How many million people read *you* every month?
Probably a lot since he writes on Usenet.
>I'm on about 2.5, if you're asking.
Whee. Let me see, If we add up all who reads his posts, he is probably
much better off, since he don't get PAID for his opinions (and thus
have them cencored by an editor). A paid opinion is NOT worth the
paper it is written on.
--
Nameless <> Name...@mo.himolde.no
Let's face it, if there is one thing that's addictive: it's politics. And
politics, unlike pot, most definitely _does_ cause brain damage.
Philip Kaulfuss
Sheesh. Am I the only person in history to have replied to Stuart Campbell in
this group and not got a total slapping in return? Do I get my prize now? ;)
Ben Preece
On 22 Aug 1997 20:39:51 GMT, Stuart Campbell waffled:
> First, it was just me who was wrong.
> Then it was just me and Andy Davidson.
> Then it was just us and 1.5 million Digi readers.
> Then it was us and the other million people who read my various columns.
[SNIP!]
> It's official - Amiga owners are right, and *everyone else in the entire
> world* is wrong!
The sad thing is - and it is sad - that some Amiga owners think
they're special over all other computer users, despite the fact that
the Amiga is no longer the computer we want it to be.
I admit that I really really enjoy a dated platform that just refuses
to die, but I don't believe that it's necessarily anything to be proud
of.
There's no point in arguing with anyone non-Amigan, particularly in
the industry. I'm on the other side of the fence now, and I can see
how silly we all look with our out-of-fashion ex-games machines and
our Mr.Knowitall one-upmanship on normal computer users.
There is no point arguing about this, particularly with Stuart. Just
look at yourselves!
Accept what we have, but don't pretend some Amigans aren't being
childish or narrow-minded. Drop the thread. You can't win. Get back to
the friendly community we're supposed to be famous for.
Ben
--
Researcher @ The Computer Channel, Sky TV.
Hewland International Ltd, London, England.
Voice: 0171 308 9955. Fax: 0171 308 9896.
eMail: be...@bigfoot.com
Adam Jones
I get the feeling this may get me flamed. Oh well, I'm sure the part of
the group who have got the point (and Stuart) will be rather amused by
them... ;)
Recently, Stuart Campbell amused an FBI wiretap squad thusly:
> Nice one, Phil. I don't care if you think I'm a wanker or not, at least
> you've got the point.
That (we) Amigans on average seem to be _very_ easy to troll. Pity.
Why don't you/we all realise that Stuart is the one looking rational here
and all the ranting and raving in the world will only reinforce that.
If you want to win the "argument", you have only to stop "arguing"[3]...
(At least to "win" next time - IMHO Stuart's made his point quite
plainly this time round[4].)
[Stopping the flamage]
> Got to be worth a try, I'd have thought. One thing - the column wasn't a
> joke. I'm never more serious than when pointing out cretinous stupidity. I
> truly believe it's the most dangerous and evil thing in the world. Satire
> is a weapon, not an end in itself.
Stupidity is endemic in the modern world. I would join your quest to
raise the world's IQ, but lacking any nuclear weapons, I feel it to be
sadly futile[1].
> You're letting a bit of latent Amiga-owner paranoia sneak in there, Phil.
> Don't let them get to you.
"They" have been here for a very long time, Mr Campbell...
--
Adam Jones (Ad...@yggdrasl.demon.co.uk) (http://www.warwick.ac.uk/~mauei/)
[1] Go on, give us the tale of our putative lawyer. Go on... Please...[2]
[2] On second thoughts, don't. I think I might cry.
[3] Using the word in the loosest possible sense.
[4] Nexsssst time, Gadget! Nexssst time... ;)
Niki Hemmings
In article <819.7172T...@netcomuk.co.uk>,
Gareth Y <gar...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote:
>Lucky you. It's on Channel 4 teletext in the UK, page 170. People who read
>that also read "Club 140", which speaks for itself if you ever get chance to
>see it.
I though Digitiser always made fun of page 140... Or was it one of the other
kids' pages?
Nik.
Stuart Campbell
> Stuart Campbell wrote:
> >
> > Er, isn't this entire thread about the fact that the Digi column >
proved it?
>
> respect for the public that Digi has.
>
> I am a long way from 'convinced' that 'all Amiga owners are whining
> little children' or whatever you said, as it's not true.
>
> You've made your point (albeit an invalid one, and made very badly)
> now please leave us alone.
>
> When you've grown up a bit, then maybe you'll be more welcome here.
>
May the Devil take me first. On both counts.
Philip Kaulfuss
Following his latest murder, Niki Hemmings smeared on the wall in blood...
: >Lucky you. It's on Channel 4 teletext in the UK, page 170. People who read
: >that also read "Club 140", which speaks for itself if you ever get chance to
: >see it.
: I though Digitiser always made fun of page 140... Or was it one of the other
: kids' pages?
Digitiser make fun of everything. I'm particularly fond of the Bamboozle lines.
You know the ones: "Bamber chews moth" and so on (I wish I could remember some
of the better ones =)). If only Digitiser was as funny as it used to be.
Finn Higgins
>Stuart Campbell wrote:
>>
>> Or are you exactly the kind of ignorant knee-jerking twat I was talking
>> about in the first place?
>>
>> Tsk.
>And are you the obnoxious, scoop-persuing, disgusting little journalist
>I first took you for?
>(Oh, excuse me if I just confirmed your (pre-set) opinion of Amiga
>users.
> However, I think a jury of 100 randomly chosen human persons would
> agree that *you* are a slime-eating twerp, and a bozo)
Actually, I quite like the man :)
I think Amiga owners really just have a problem taking a joke at their own
expense... Or anything at their own expense really, why do you think ECS
and OCS are still around :)
Finn
Tim
>> >
>> We all have, you posted some of it here, remember? :-)
>> Plus the albeit silly petition on the Aminet...
>I posted one page out of nine.
>>
>> Most of us know what was said in that article, like it or not.
>>
>Except it would clearly appear not, or you wouldn't have written so many
>letters of complaint about it.
>You're really just not grasping the point here at all, are you?
>It's only because my life's ambition is to raise the world's average IQ by
>one millionth of one point that I'm bothering to try to get through to you
>at all, but even I can't keep banging my head against a brick wall forever.
Well, having left this group for about 3 days I suddenly find it's become
subject to Campbellism. Oh dear. It's been an amusing read - not least
because of your rather reactionary postings (you really are quite insulting in
your responses) and amusing conclusions - re: Digitizer and the article in
question. Why you're doing this is quite obviously *not* to do what you've
stated above Stuart and I'm afraid I do resent the implication that my IQ (or
anyone elses) needs "raising" based on the simple fact they disagree with you.
Still, let's consider what you're saying :)
>One last recap - my sole contention was that if you don't want to get
>slagged and insulted all the time, maybe you shouldn't be such whiny
>knee-jerk reactionaries. There's NO POINT WHATSOEVER in claiming that
>you're *not* whiny knee-jerk reactionaries, because an avalanche of idiot
>mail at Teletext HQ rather suggests otherwise. Illustrating that fact was
>the entire point of my original Digi piece, and in that it succeeded
>spectacularly - dozens and dozens of Amiga complaints, absolutely none from
>anyone else. You can't argue with the numbers.
Well - that's journalism for you :) You're eloquent with words Stuart but
obviously you've never conducted any sort of reasoned research. You can,
quite happily, discount those very "numbers" that you're so attached to.
Think - are these actually representative of the Amiga user base, such as it
is, in 1997? The answer is no. For instance does this take into account
those living outside the UK? No. Oh dear. I probably also need to point out
this - there's only a relative handful of readers with Amigas reading
Digitizer. I mean, what's on Digitizer for the Amiga user? Not a lot mate.
>(I mean, something serious must be going on if I find myself sharing sides
>with a Team 17 programmer. Worms programmer, at that.)
Stuart the one man army - lay into your allies too ;)
>Read before you whine before you write and maybe we'll all be happier in
>the end.
I've read a vast number of your postings and the article in question. I do
hope you can respond sensibly without recourse to insult?
Tim R. Stubbs, A4000/060/PicassoIV, Q Development Group - "Project FUBAR"
Stuart Campbell
Tim <dan...@angeldos.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
> I've read a vast number of your postings and the article in question. I
do
> hope you can respond sensibly without recourse to insult?
Love to, Tim.
> >It's only because my life's ambition is to raise the world's average IQ
by
> >one millionth of one point that I'm bothering to try to get through to
you
> >at all, but even I can't keep banging my head against a brick wall
forever.
>
> Why you're doing this is quite obviously *not* to do what you've
> stated above Stuart and I'm afraid I do resent the implication that my IQ
(or
> anyone elses) needs "raising" based on the simple fact they disagree with
you.
> Still, let's consider what you're saying :)
>
No, Tim, I'm not saying anyone needs their IQ raised because they disagree
with me. I'm saying everyone, including myself, needs their IQ raised on
general principle. (I try to be very precise with wording on subjects like
this, I do hate it when people extrapolate their own meanings.)
What I tried to do with the column was show people that it was wise to read
something properly before complaining vociferously about it and hence
making yourself look a bit daft. Having the sense to make that judgement
might seem obvious to you or I, but as has been clearly proved by the Digi
mailbag, the reasoning was clearly beyond a large number of people. If a
single one of them has now learned that lesson, then their powers of
reasoning have increased, and therefore their IQ is marginally higher.
Still some way to go, obviously, but every step forward, y'know?
>>dozens and dozens of Amiga complaints, absolutely none from
> >anyone else. You can't argue with the numbers.
>
> Well - that's journalism for you :) You're eloquent with words Stuart
but
> obviously you've never conducted any sort of reasoned research. You can,
> quite happily, discount those very "numbers" that you're so attached to.
> Think - are these actually representative of the Amiga user base, such as
it
> is, in 1997?
My point was that, in the absence of almost any other public representation
of those views, then as far as the general public is concerned, they ARE
representative of the Amiga user base. What I was talking about was how the
Amiga, via its users, is perceived by the outside world, and like it or
not, the outside world doesn't read Amiga Format. Public forums such as
Usenet and Digi are all they have to judge by. And the Amiga has no chance
of ever living again without goodwill from outside, so maybe it's not smart
to let everyone think Amiga owners are dim-witted paranoid sulkers. Do you
see?
> The answer is no. For instance does this take into account
> those living outside the UK? No. Oh dear. I probably also need to
point out
> this - there's only a relative handful of readers with Amigas reading
> Digitizer. I mean, what's on Digitizer for the Amiga user? Not a lot
mate.
>
As we've seen with the likes of dear old Hans, not being able to read Digi
isn't necessarily any barrier to coming on here and shouting the odds about
it. And the size of the mailbag would seem to cast doubt on how few Amiga
owners read it - Digi gets more letters from Amiga owners, especially on
occasions like this, than from anyone else. True.
> >(I mean, something serious must be going on if I find myself sharing
sides
> >with a Team 17 programmer. Worms programmer, at that.)
>
> Stuart the one man army - lay into your allies too ;)
>
What? I didn't lay into him at all, merely observed it was an unlikely
scenario, given the run-ins I've had with Team 17 and my dislike of that
game in particular. Andy also remarked on how unusual it was for us to
agree.
> Well, having left this group for about 3 days I suddenly find it's become
> subject to Campbellism. Oh dear. It's been an amusing read - not least
> because of your rather reactionary postings (you really are quite
insulting in
> your responses)
Yeah, I know. What's it to you, dogbreath?
Dang. I tried.
Kyzer
Stuart Campbell, while smelling of fish, wrote:
: I had a couple of aims in mind when writing the column:
: (a) to see how many people were stupid enough to write furious letters of
: complaint regarding something they *obviously hadn't actually bothered to
: read or understand properly*.
: (b) to see if it was only Amiga owners who were such whining sulky little
: children.
[snip]
: You know, no-one else's newsgroups are like this. Not dead machines like
: the Spectrum, not semi-dead machines like the Mega Drive, none. No-one else
: is even one-tenth this paranoid, witless, petty and just plain dim.
Stuart, noone is listening, they're too busy shouting about how expensive it
was to convert their Amiga to a SuperAmigaInATowerCase(tm), and how all the
new games should only possibly work on the most expensive Amigas, in fact
they're writing a special 'pricetag.library' which works out how much your
computer costs and has the ability to format your harddrive and then complain
'out of memory' the moment it realises you _haven't_ spent 6000 pounds on it
(but, of course, 'it's more expensive for a PC because they don't write VAT
on the adverts, except when they do.'). And of course, it's so terribly
important to do something or other because the Amiga isn't dead. So what?
Gyles Brandreth isn't dead, but we don't have secret ceremonies in the dark
to celebrate it. But then, maybe we do, and I did, but I forgot.
Besides, I play Mercenary 3 more than I play Sonic (yes, Sonic 1, the first one,
because the shop wanted 15 quid for Sonic 2 and I stormed off in a humpf.)
But anyway, my theory is that only Amiga owners could be bothered to write in,
the rest were fazed by the un-coolness of Digitiser's chunky graphics and non
radical texts. And the man just isn't funny. So they went back to playing games
on their, erm, things. Perhaps they didn't go back to play games, perhaps they
went off down the shops, or something. They just didn't write in because they
didn't feel it was wrong to have their expensive toy sullied before their very
eyes.
I suppose it's always like this at funerals, all the backbiting and who gets
what from the will, and so on. Sorry.
On behalf of noone else here, let me buy you a kipper.
--
Stuart 'Kyzer' Caie, Aberdeen University, Scotland. Email to: ky...@4u.net
My opinions are not those of Aberdeen University, and I do not speak for or
on behalf of AUCC.
..100% Amiga, forever!.. http://www.abdn.ac.uk/~u13sac/
--
Random sig of the day:
Warning: .sig copier in use - will your sig be next?!
Alan L.M. Buxey
On 27 Aug 1997 14:52:05 GMT ,Kyzer posted the following:
: Stuart, noone is listening, they're too busy shouting about how expensive it
: was to convert their Amiga to a SuperAmigaInATowerCase(tm), and how all the
: new games should only possibly work on the most expensive Amigas, in fact
: they're writing a special 'pricetag.library' which works out how much your
: computer costs and has the ability to format your harddrive and then complain
oh, you dont know how close you are to the truth here 8-)
(slightly off on price though, pricetag.library has calls that start as
low as 600 UKP - and that is dynamically linked to
foreign_echange.library to verify the cost in other fiscal units so that
locale can still be supported)
anyway, as i said, a basic tower system + zorro bus will get you through
the base_600_system() calls
alan
dclare
In article <1161.7174T1011T625@remove_this_bit.landlines.demon.co.uk>,
finn@remove_this_bit.landlines.demon.co.uk says...
>
>>Alan L.M. Buxey talked me into the game of Re: Amiga owners - their own
worst
>>enemies?. It was ' comp.sys.amiga.games before the music started...
>>> Its because its soo easy to get an Amiga onto the Net that even a total
>>> idiot can do it....and therefore, we get total idiots following up on
>>> silly little "informative" journalism.
>
>>Ahem. Are you trying to tell me that getting a pretty much full on UNIX
port
>>(AmiTCP4.0demo) to work is easy? Have you been looking at the "Sabina
>>Online" cartoons run by Amiga Format - I know exactly how she feels. As
soon
>>as she gets it all set up.... Miami arrives. Ah well - at least I now
know a
>>bit about UNIX.
>
>I actually found AmiTCP 4.0 demo quite straightforward, I'd still be using
>it if I could actually get ppp.device to dial into Demon properly.. it
>needs some carrige-returns sent in the dialscript, and I can't get it to
>work... In Miami you just send "\r", but that doesn't work in PPP.
>
>>Then there's GCC - which I've given up on.
>
>Me too actually, I have never been able to get the 3.1 includes and
>libraries working with it, as it seems to take a non-amiga.lib library
>format. Bugger.
>
>Finn
I have to agree... I found AmiTCP very easy to configure compared to my
PC. I mean double clicking on that Dial-up networking Icon and plugging in
my IP was so much harder.
I can imagine that Clicking on the AOL Icon and typing your credit card
number is so difficult to your average PC user that the stupid ones don't
have a hope of getting online.
Can you detect the irony?
Lets calm down folks and prove by our own actions that we ARE grown up.
Those of us who know How good the Amiga is don't have to defend ourselves.I
really don't give a shit what people think of my machine as long as they
still pay me for my graphics and I can still get the programs I want.
But lets face it. Five years ago Amiga left Wintel machines in the dust
but it's not five years ago now is it? I love my machine but if Gateway
2000 doesn't do something soon WE will be in the dust.
IMFHO
Dwayne.
Tim
>Tim <dan...@angeldos.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
>> I've read a vast number of your postings and the article in question. I
>do
>> hope you can respond sensibly without recourse to insult?
>Love to, Tim.
I only wish I'd had money on this ;)
>> >It's only because my life's ambition is to raise the world's average IQ
>by
>> >one millionth of one point that I'm bothering to try to get through to
>you
>> >at all, but even I can't keep banging my head against a brick wall
>forever.
>>
>> Why you're doing this is quite obviously *not* to do what you've
>> stated above Stuart and I'm afraid I do resent the implication that my IQ
>(or
>> anyone elses) needs "raising" based on the simple fact they disagree with
>you.
>> Still, let's consider what you're saying :)
>>
>No, Tim, I'm not saying anyone needs their IQ raised because they disagree
>with me. I'm saying everyone, including myself, needs their IQ raised on
>general principle. (I try to be very precise with wording on subjects like
>this, I do hate it when people extrapolate their own meanings.)
>What I tried to do with the column was show people that it was wise to read
>something properly before complaining vociferously about it and hence
>making yourself look a bit daft. Having the sense to make that judgement
>might seem obvious to you or I, but as has been clearly proved by the Digi
>mailbag, the reasoning was clearly beyond a large number of people. If a
>single one of them has now learned that lesson, then their powers of
>reasoning have increased, and therefore their IQ is marginally higher.
Thou art indeed a scarey individual if you believe that kind of logic.
Teach people a "lesson" and suddenly their intelligence increases? Perhaps
their *experience* will increase and then only positively should that
experience be positive *real* knowledge. I would suggest that you're the one
making judgements on others, and personally I don't believe you're qualified
to do so objectively.
>Still some way to go, obviously, but every step forward, y'know?
>>>dozens and dozens of Amiga complaints, absolutely none from
>> >anyone else. You can't argue with the numbers.
>>
>> Well - that's journalism for you :) You're eloquent with words Stuart
>but
>> obviously you've never conducted any sort of reasoned research. You can,
>> quite happily, discount those very "numbers" that you're so attached to.
>> Think - are these actually representative of the Amiga user base, such as
>it
>> is, in 1997?
>My point was that, in the absence of almost any other public representation
>of those views, then as far as the general public is concerned, they ARE
>representative of the Amiga user base. What I was talking about was how the
>Amiga, via its users, is perceived by the outside world, and like it or
>not, the outside world doesn't read Amiga Format. Public forums such as
>Usenet and Digi are all they have to judge by. And the Amiga has no chance
>of ever living again without goodwill from outside, so maybe it's not smart
>to let everyone think Amiga owners are dim-witted paranoid sulkers. Do you
>see?
Oh I agree - I'd certainly hate to be percieved in such a way. But do you
think by that your (frankly) quite vicious postings to usenet you're actually
going to change anyone's POV? I assume your English and should know it's
human nature to respond to fire with fire. If all you do here is suceed in
iritating a majority then nothing has been achieved.
>> The answer is no. For instance does this take into account
>> those living outside the UK? No. Oh dear. I probably also need to
>point out
>> this - there's only a relative handful of readers with Amigas reading
>> Digitizer. I mean, what's on Digitizer for the Amiga user? Not a lot
>mate.
>>
>As we've seen with the likes of dear old Hans, not being able to read Digi
>isn't necessarily any barrier to coming on here and shouting the odds about
>it. And the size of the mailbag would seem to cast doubt on how few Amiga
>owners read it - Digi gets more letters from Amiga owners, especially on
>occasions like this, than from anyone else. True.
Which frankly still leaves those outside the UK without a say or any form of
representation. Still, interesting to hear what *you* have to say about the
size of the mailbag.. ;^)
>> >(I mean, something serious must be going on if I find myself sharing
>sides
>> >with a Team 17 programmer. Worms programmer, at that.)
>>
>> Stuart the one man army - lay into your allies too ;)
>>
>What? I didn't lay into him at all, merely observed it was an unlikely
>scenario, given the run-ins I've had with Team 17 and my dislike of that
>game in particular. Andy also remarked on how unusual it was for us to
>agree.
Irony? Humour? A one line pun? Way too serious here Stuart!
>> Well, having left this group for about 3 days I suddenly find it's become
>> subject to Campbellism. Oh dear. It's been an amusing read - not least
>> because of your rather reactionary postings (you really are quite
>insulting in
>> your responses)
>Yeah, I know. What's it to you, dogbreath?
>Dang. I tried.
..and failed :)
Finn Higgins
>>I actually found AmiTCP 4.0 demo quite straightforward, I'd still be using
>>it if I could actually get ppp.device to dial into Demon properly.. it
>>needs some carrige-returns sent in the dialscript, and I can't get it to
>>work... In Miami you just send "\r", but that doesn't work in PPP.
>>
>>>Then there's GCC - which I've given up on.
>>
>>Me too actually, I have never been able to get the 3.1 includes and
>>libraries working with it, as it seems to take a non-amiga.lib library
>>format. Bugger.
>>
>>Finn
> I have to agree... I found AmiTCP very easy to configure compared to my
>PC. I mean double clicking on that Dial-up networking Icon and plugging in
>my IP was so much harder.
> I can imagine that Clicking on the AOL Icon and typing your credit card
>number is so difficult to your average PC user that the stupid ones don't
>have a hope of getting online.
What are you on about? I merely stated that AmiTCP isn't actually that
hard to set up, even if you don't know that much about Unix. I spent 1
hour reading the AmiTCP/PPP docs, and it the only major problem I had was
with PPP not realising when the PPP string thing had started. Soon sorted
with a WAIT "~" command.
I'm not saying it is easier than the PC, or easier than Miami. Merely that
it isn't as impossible as (say) the Sabrina Online cartoons make out,
provided you are computer literate and understand how to use a text editor.
> But lets face it. Five years ago Amiga left Wintel machines in the dust
>but it's not five years ago now is it? I love my machine but if Gateway
>2000 doesn't do something soon WE will be in the dust.
We are in the dust. Getting out is the problem.
Finn
Ian Gledhill
> > I have to agree... I found AmiTCP very easy to configure compared to my
> >PC. I mean double clicking on that Dial-up networking Icon and plugging in
> >my IP was so much harder.
>
> > I can imagine that Clicking on the AOL Icon and typing your credit card
> >number is so difficult to your average PC user that the stupid ones don't
> >have a hope of getting online.
Oh, sure, Dial-up networking is like everything else in Win95... it's
very
easy to do basically but if you want to do anything slightly unusual....
Like when I plugged in my ISDN terminal, Win95 complained and complained
despite terminal going to Demon perfectly. Eventually I found the driver
disk and it finally worked.
Compare that to AmiTCP (I already had it setup for a 14.4, just like
Win95):
I plugged in the modem, upped the baud to 57600, and blam! perfect
internet straight away.
Typical Win95.. does what was Joe Bloggs wants, not what YOU want to do.
--
Ian Gledhill
im...@aber.ac.uk
Kyzer
Stuart Campbell of bi...@made.up.com wrote in comp.sys.amiga.games:
: Kyzer <junk...@sysa.abdn.ac.uk> wrote in article
: <5ti2ds$n9b$1...@info.abdn.ac.uk>...
: >
: > Silly sausage, this is an Amiga group. They don't care about Digitiser or
: > CTW because it's entirely unimportant to them.
: Stu. Stuey. Love. You've only gone and missed the point again, dear. The
Oh no! My point is going to divorce me! Marcy!
: whole thing we're talking about is how the Amiga community presents itself
: *to the outside world*.
Oh no! But wait! All my Amiga owning friends have unexpanded A600s and A1200s,
yet they don't even mention how terribly poor Amiga games are, because they're
playing all the good ones circa 1991-1994. In fact, the only time they ever
complain is when they can't get these terribly old games to load properly.
Now, I hate to presume, but perhaps there are _more_ people like these, that
own and use Amigas. However, they appear to have foolishly waived their
democratic right to write in to computer magazines that slag off the Amiga,
and get terribly cross about nothing really important.
My theory is there are two types of Amiga owner[*]:
a) People who read Amiga Format, CU Amiga, or comp.sys.amiga.* [**]
b) Normal people.
Likelyhood of being a moaning minnie:
type a): 90%
type b): 0%
Considers oneself part of 'the Amiga community':
type a): 100% [***]
type b): 14%
Knows bog all about anything:
type a): 3%
type b): 44%
Does this make sense?
I hope it does, otherwise THEY(tm) will punish me.
: Everyone's banging on about how they want the Amiga
: to make it big again. You're not, I presume, planning on achieving that
: purely on the strength of sales to the couple of hundred people who read
: this newsgroup?
Hmm. I somehow doubt anyone sensible plans on reviving the Amiga. It's about
as dead as a PC without a 3D graphics accelerator since about 10 minutes ago.
However, I cringe terribly at just how bad
a) 80x86 processors are. (Computer designers: avoid! avoid! avoid!)
b) Microsoft operating systems are. (All: KILL GATES, ENSLAVER OF CRETINS)
Now, I'm not _asking_ that the millions and millions of nice people with
PCs give up their computers voluntarily solely on my opinion.
What I do ask is that the mistakes currently being made by 'the computer
industry' (mistakes that, strangely, lead to increases in profit) be corrected
with time, and improvements in design. In fact, I hear that Intel can't make
their processors go any faster. But DEC have had faster processors than the
Pentium-2-Pro-666Mhz for ages now. So, perhaps now is the time for change.
The Amiga had mistakes. Plenty of them. In fact, it's hideously poor. However,
it alone, out of all the cretinous machinery that binds our lives, was the
nicest.
So, when 'we' say 'The Amiga', we mean 'a better computer than usual'.
Or perhaps only I mean that, after all I _am_ surrounded by moronic sheep
here (I'm sure you know the feeling, Stuart).
Until then, I'll continue to enjoy using my computer[****], without feeling the
urge to write in to Digitiser, no matter what THEY(tm) say.
: Or have you just not been reading properly, hm?
I would never admit to that. Perhaps it's because I was disgusted at your
teletextual representation and promptly changed the channel (pressing the
'vision' button first, so as not to accidentally start typing another teletext
page, natch). Still, better graphics than those boards at the airport, huh?
: > Besides, you're just a loudmouth who craves attention. At least you're good
: > at that, otherwise you'd be a bit crap really.
: Oh no! Rumbled! My wife's going to kill me!
And to think, Stuart, that your game-reviewing career stopped abruptly when
everyone discovered your 'sure-fire reviewing technique'...
I believe it was something like 'I simply wait for the review to be published
in Amiga Action, then I copy the article, changing a few key words with the
aid of a thesaurus' and 'knock off 20% to preserve my own hard-man reputation.'
Having some plastic sunglasses with 'ATTITUDE' written on in Tip-Ex also
failed to impress. But no matter, that is in the past now.
: > What can I say - it's your chosen career, good luck with it.
: > But don't assume anyone in the world cares, because they don't.
: Guess you're right there, Stu. Do write again sometime.
Promise, sweetie darling.
[*] When I say that, I mean use they occasionally use it as well. I mean,
it's not as if everyone who has a pork pie in the fridge eats it.
[**] Except me, natch.
[***] Team Amiga, need I say more? The sons of fools and their fathers.
[****] An Amiga, you fool. And the AUCC's woefully inadequate machinery.
--
Stuart 'Kyzer' Caie, Aberdeen University, Scotland. Email to: ky...@4u.net
My opinions are not those of Aberdeen University, and I do not speak for or
on behalf of AUCC.
..100% Amiga, forever!.. http://www.abdn.ac.uk/~u13sac/
--
Random sig of the day:
Britcode(v1.1): Brit(S) H+++: U+++: a18 s+:- hf++>+++ b+ m+ x? X---:+
P-- S+++ M++ R-- A C-- T--- TV+ Ci MuI+ MuR++ MuJ--- Am+++ Ac+ B+ V---
Kyzer
Kyzer of junk...@sysa.abdn.ac.uk wrote in comp.sys.amiga.games:
: Oh no! But wait! All my Amiga owning friends have unexpanded A600s and A1200s,
: yet they don't even mention how terribly poor Amiga games are, because they're
: playing all the good ones circa 1991-1994. In fact, the only time they ever
: complain is when they can't get these terribly old games to load properly.
Big oops! I forgot to mention that these people also have proper lives.
But then, who am I to judge who has a proper life and who has not? And
isn't it just terrible that Diana, Princess of Wales, is dead?
--
Stuart 'Kyzer' Caie, Aberdeen University, Scotland. Email to: ky...@4u.net
My opinions are not those of Aberdeen University, and I do not speak for or
on behalf of AUCC.
..100% Amiga, forever!.. http://www.abdn.ac.uk/~u13sac/
--
Random sig of the day:
BONUS: Present this .sig at Tesco for a 15% discount.