PAL/NTSC- the plague that will do in CD32
Philip McDunnough
writing PAL or NTSC specific software is having a very detrimental effect
on the CD32 and the Amiga (there you've also got the floppy only problem).
For years people have been told to write their software properly. If
developers persist in writing PAL only sw, and PAL only CD32 titles, I
would strongly suggest that they don't bother posting lists, messages, etc...
to the whole world. It's annoying, at best. Stupid idiots, is what they
are. They are simply killing the Amiga.
Most of the CD32 titles are still PAL. Until this situation changes, it's
impossible to recommend this product to anyone outside Europe and
down under. The CD32 could be a big hit over here and even in the US. But
the immaturity of programmers in Europe is simply hurting it too much. I
don't want PAL boots, degraders, etc...I want to put a CD into my CD32 and
not have my TV go wild. I want to be able to put a program on my A4000's
hard drive, click and have it start.
As good a job as Dave is doing promoting the CD32 titles, what people seem to
miss is that people in NTSC land will not put up with girating TV's.
--
Philip McDunnough
University of Toronto
phi...@utstat.toronto.edu
[Where sheep may safely graze...]
Bruno Fernandes
Philip McDunnough <phi...@utstat.toronto.edu> wrote:
>This is all getting to be too much. When are people going to realize that
>writing PAL or NTSC specific software is having a very detrimental effect
>on the CD32 and the Amiga (there you've also got the floppy only problem).
>For years people have been told to write their software properly. If
>developers persist in writing PAL only sw, and PAL only CD32 titles, I
>would strongly suggest that they don't bother posting lists, messages, etc...
>to the whole world. It's annoying, at best. Stupid idiots, is what they
>are. They are simply killing the Amiga.
>
>Most of the CD32 titles are still PAL. Until this situation changes, it's
>impossible to recommend this product to anyone outside Europe and
>down under. The CD32 could be a big hit over here and even in the US. But
>the immaturity of programmers in Europe is simply hurting it too much. I
>don't want PAL boots, degraders, etc...I want to put a CD into my CD32 and
>not have my TV go wild. I want to be able to put a program on my A4000's
>hard drive, click and have it start.
>
I'm in the Toronto area. I'd like to see some NTSC software. But. I'd
rather have a better TV that will handle the PAL resolution. And you
won't see me calling programmers "immature" because they chose to develop
for their own standards FIRST. PAL offers 256 vertical lines
non-overscan. That's 56 lines more than NTSC. Much nicer for making
games. The pixels also have a better aspect because of it. Have you ever
programmed a game? Anything visual at all? Drawn a picture? You are
perhaps thinking that the entire NTSC/PAL business is just one of timing.
Well sure you can have the game working on your NTSC machine. But unless
you redraw the graphics, you'll have to play the games with the bottom
portion (or some portion) of the screen missing. Do you know what kind of
pain it is to re-draw all the graphics for a game so thatthey fit into 200
vertical lines? And you can't have code in the software that does some
type of scaling either. One solution is to make games all use NTSC screen
dimensions. But then don't PAL users have the right to complain that they
have a thick black band on their screen and that their screens are not
being fully used? The other solution is to make 2 completely different
versions. And this takes time. It's the time that immature users like
you don't want to put up with. Well then, program your own games in the
mean-time ok?
There are far more serious things wrong with C= right now.
Bruno
Hybrid Developments
And yes, our software will run for NTSC, PAL, SECAM or whatever screwed
system you want to throw at it.
--
"Also believe that peanut butter | The ideas expressed may very well be my
and bacon have been neglected as | own - or they may be stolen from others.
food groups, particularly when |
eaten together." - D. Cooper | e0f1...@credit.erin.utoronto.ca
s370...@nickel.laurentian.ca
This is really kind of stupid. Most amigas are in Europe. And there for most
games are in PAL. The only reason I could see someone getting upset about
games being in PAL is if they own a TV and not a monitor. Games on amiga are
better in PAL, look nicer, and generally run better. So if you have a prob
with PAL then go buy a monitor, simple as that.
Bernie Cosell
} >Most of the CD32 titles are still PAL. Until this situation changes, it's
} >impossible to recommend this product to anyone outside Europe and
} >down under. ...
} I'm in the Toronto area. I'd like to see some NTSC software. But. I'd
} rather have a better TV that will handle the PAL resolution. And you
} won't see me calling programmers "immature" because they chose to develop
} for their own standards FIRST.
Pejoratives aside, there IS a point there: there are *standards*
for programming the Amiga and it is just unprofessional not to code
up to snuff. This harks back to the longstanding debates, like
*compiling* "DF0:" into a program, or having it swap off of floppy
because the developers "own standards FIRST" were for a 512K amiga
with one floppy drive. It is amazing how many programs for the
original 256K macs _still_work_ on a contemporary full-color Mac.
Apple was VERY overbearing about insisting that their developers
toe the line, and it mostly paid off. C-A, among their many
faults, seems not ot have cared much that Amiga software be written
'up to snuff', and so many of us have shelves of old software that
stopped working when we upgraded the OS, or when we put in an
accelerator, or are just too much of a pain to use off of floppy
[with a gig of free HD space sitting there].
It should be *commodore* out there yelling at developers for
segmenting the already-too-small amiga market and buliding-in
obsolescence. It certainly makes you think twice when you go to
buy new software in a world where the hardware is advancing at a
breakneck pace, to think that your hundred-dollar-investment will
stop working in two months because the programmer took some dumb
shortcut.
Between AGA/ESC and PAL/NTSC, the amiga market, thanks to
short-sighted developers, is being carved up into little niches
such that almost NO ONE will be able to make a decent profit...
} ... It's the time that immature users like
} you don't want to put up with.
Actually, 'time' and 'patience' is the only thing Amigans have going
for them. The delay from first seeing many games and applications and
utilities on other platforms until you can run it on your Amy is
already almost intolerably long, and getting longer [approaching infinity
for many products].
} ... Well then, program your own games in the
} mean-time ok?
A capsule summary of why the Amgia has so much lousy software, why
much of it is so poorly supported, and why the market is withering.
Instead of approaching the problem as a professional preparing a
commodity for a savvy marketplace, it appears that developers have
the attitude that we should be SO GRATEFUL to have _anything_ at
all for our amys that quibbling about compatibility or performance
or the like is just selfish.
} There are far more serious things wrong with C= right now.
Perhaps, but you seem to have lost sight of something [since you
seem to be a developer]: WE are the customers... remember us? The
folks with the money who keep folk like you in a position to keep
paying your mortgage. When your TV set performs poorly and you
point it out, I guess you expect them to just tell you to go build
your own TV set if you want one that works better... when of
course what a consumer with an above-room-temp IQ will do is go
find a different brand. But then, some developers can't see that
that's a significant part of what is happening to the Amiga, as
folks go to other platforms where there's enough
developer-competition that they have to take some pains to make
their stuff WORK, rather than blame the _user_ because he has the
wrong system...
/Bernie\
--
Bernie Cosell ber...@fantasyfarm.com
Fantasy Farm Fibers, Pearisburg, VA (703) 921-2358
Philip McDunnough
[Regarding PAL vs. NTSC, etc...]
>
>I'm in the Toronto area. I'd like to see some NTSC software. But. I'd
>rather have a better TV that will handle the PAL resolution.
Fine I was just in a store today that carries TV's that handle all
the various standards. I don't feel like paying double for a TV that
I don't need. That would bring the cost of the CD32 up to close to
$2000. Is that what you are suggesting?
>And you
>won't see me calling programmers "immature" because they chose to develop
>for their own standards FIRST.
I know. I called them fools. They are marketing a product to the world, and
it's not just NTSC or PAL out there. In any case C= has strongly suggested
people write in a way that is PAL/NTSC/etc...independent, if you will.
>PAL offers 256 vertical lines
>non-overscan. That's 56 lines more than NTSC. Much nicer for making
>games. The pixels also have a better aspect because of it. Have you ever
>programmed a game? Anything visual at all? Drawn a picture? You are
>perhaps thinking that the entire NTSC/PAL business is just one of timing.
>Well sure you can have the game working on your NTSC machine. But unless
>you redraw the graphics, you'll have to play the games with the bottom
>portion (or some portion) of the screen missing. Do you know what kind of
>pain it is to re-draw all the graphics for a game so thatthey fit into 200
>vertical lines? And you can't have code in the software that does some
>type of scaling either. One solution is to make games all use NTSC screen
>dimensions. But then don't PAL users have the right to complain that they
>have a thick black band on their screen and that their screens are not
>being fully used? The other solution is to make 2 completely different
>versions. And this takes time. It's the time that immature users like
>you don't want to put up with. Well then, program your own games in the
>mean-time ok?
The immature users like me don't have the time, and are probably too old in any case to be bothered with programming games. It's not something I even care to
learn, and I have no evidence that I even could. I do other things to eat,
and this immature user is the one who is the customer. What kind of ridiculous
statements are you coming out with? I'm paying for the damn product, and if
it doesn't work then you/whoever has just lost a customer. I really couldn't
care less about the NTSC vs. PAL thing. That's a job for the programmers. They
get paid to do it. I get paid to do other jobs. I can't believe someone would
actually come out with a line implying that if one doesn't like it then tough.
With that attitude, the CD32 will simply fade away...
>
>There are far more serious things wrong with C= right now.
That's neither here nor there with respect to this issue.
>Bruno
>Hybrid Developments
>
>And yes, our software will run for NTSC, PAL, SECAM or whatever screwed
>system you want to throw at it.
That's fine, but you won't find me in your customer base.
Philip McDunnough
[Regarding NTSC and PAL...]
>This is really kind of stupid. Most amigas are in Europe. And there for most
>games are in PAL. The only reason I could see someone getting upset about
>games being in PAL is if they own a TV and not a monitor. Games on amiga are
>better in PAL, look nicer, and generally run better. So if you have a prob
>with PAL then go buy a monitor, simple as that.
C= sells something called a CD32. I have it on a TV. I also have the FMV
card for it. I think it's great. However, I would suggest you give a bit
more thought to what you are saying and reread my note. If C= wants to
exist only in Europe and have a few CD32's in Canada,the US, Japan,...then
fine. But tell me that before you sell me the product.
You obviously have no idea what the market is for the CD32. It's not for
people who want to put it on a monitor. I don't want to and will simply
shift away from it, if that's the case ( but not from the Amiga).
I can't believe the attitudes of people here. Quite frankly, you really have
no idea what makes the world turn. One day you'll wake up and there won't
be an Amiga/CD32. And, mark my words, the NTSC/PAL issue will be a major
reason in the console's case and the floppy only attitude with be the one
for the Amiga. In addition, I don't agree with you that PAL games or
programs are better. I've played them both. I don't really see what the big
deal is. The refresh rate, moreover, is annoying in PAL.
Tony Marshall
> This is all getting to be too much. When are people going to realize that
> writing PAL or NTSC specific software is having a very detrimental effect
> on the CD32 and the Amiga (there you've also got the floppy only problem).
> For years people have been told to write their software properly. If
> developers persist in writing PAL only sw, and PAL only CD32 titles, I
> would strongly suggest that they don't bother posting lists, messages, etc...
> to the whole world. It's annoying, at best. Stupid idiots, is what they
> are. They are simply killing the Amiga.
>
thing we want is a return to the old black border at the bottom third of the
screen!!!
--
Tony Marshall |===============================================|
Carlisle, UK |#include <JeanMichelJarre.TangerineDream.Yello.|
to...@junct9.wizdom.royle.org| .Neuronium.PetShopBoys.Yello.DepecheMode.Peru>|
bli...@spuddy.uucp |===============================================|
Adarsh Menon
I agree to an extent. While there have been close to 60 titles
available in UK for the CD32, at last count there were only about
15 titles available at my local dealer here in Calgary...and that
includes CDTV stuff!
>--
>Philip McDunnough
>University of Toronto
>phi...@utstat.toronto.edu
>[Where sheep may safely graze...]
Adarsh Menon
--
**************************************************************************
* //\ /\ /\ *
* // \ ||\ //\ ||\ // || // \ //\\/ ||\ | //\ ||\ *
*\\_//----\|| \ //__\ ||/ \\ ||\ \\_// \// |_ || \ | || | || \ //*
Adarsh Menon
>This is really kind of stupid. Most amigas are in Europe. And there for most
>games are in PAL. The only reason I could see someone getting upset about
>games being in PAL is if they own a TV and not a monitor. Games on amiga are
>better in PAL, look nicer, and generally run better. So if you have a prob
>with PAL then go buy a monitor, simple as that.
If it were as simple as this, I guess I could live with
it...unfortunately (as far as CD32 is concerned) many PAL games
aren't released here in North America in the first place (for
whatever reason). None of the Team 17 games are out here, and I
know while Microcosm PAL version is available, my dealer won't
get it (unless someone orders it), since an NTSC version is on
its way.
Maybe it's just my distributor...
Rob Morton
<s370...@nickel.laurentian.ca> wrote:
>
>This is really kind of stupid. Most amigas are in Europe. And there for most
>games are in PAL. The only reason I could see someone getting upset about
>games being in PAL is if they own a TV and not a monitor. Games on amiga are
>better in PAL, look nicer, and generally run better. So if you have a prob
>with PAL then go buy a monitor, simple as that.
>
Actually your statement is kind of stupid. I should think that
it would be pretty easy to make the conversion, hell it should be mostly
changing one portion of the program. We are talking about the Amiga and
CD32. For the Amiga I say let them go out and get a monitor. For CD32
I say the programmers need to plan for NTSC. You do not tell people that
spen $400 to get a great game system, to go buy a monitor. Game systems
should run on the TV, if they do not then another games system will
dominate. I guess on a CD it could be a little cramped to put both an
NTSC, and a PAL version on it :)
Later,
Rob Morton
mor...@wam.umd.edu
Adam Lawrence Salter
Look. There is very little chance that Commodore would notice the NTSC/PAL
complaint if you rolled it up tightly and shoved up their nostril. Commodore
is currently in the process of going bankrupt. Still, I believe CD32 is so
attractive it will survive this somehow, another company or something will
keep making it, but if this happens it will probably be mostly marketed in
Europe or Pal countries. Not to mention the fact that probably ALL the games
will be made in Europe for Europeans, so perhaps, if you continue to use CD32,
a C= 1084s monitor would be a good investment. They are very cheap and can be
used also as a tv, as I'm sure you know. They're only about $200-$250
Canadian currency, and from the fact that you have bought almost every game
that has come out for CD32 and the FMV cart, I think you can afford it.
adam
Craig Ganoe
> In article <CnICs...@utstat.toronto.edu>,
> Philip McDunnough <phi...@utstat.toronto.edu> wrote:
> > [ titles are hurting the CD32 (and the Amiga) deleted ]
> >
Way to go Philip!
> I'm in the Toronto area. I'd like to see some NTSC software. But. I'd
> rather have a better TV that will handle the PAL resolution.
>
Well, if you're implying that people who want to get a CD32 should get
a new TV, you may as well give up now on any hope of Commodore selling
CD32s in NTSC-land. That is what we're talking about here - Commodore selling
CD32s.
> And you won't see me calling programmers "immature" because they chose
> to develop for their own standards FIRST.
>
I would, I tend to find that "programmers" that don't (or can't) program to
cover all configurations of a system (or systems) really aren't that good
of programmers (maturity really isn't a good word here although it gets
the point across better).
> PAL offers 256 vertical lines
> non-overscan. That's 56 lines more than NTSC. Much nicer for making
> games. The pixels also have a better aspect because of it. Have you ever
> programmed a game? Anything visual at all? Drawn a picture? You are
> perhaps thinking that the entire NTSC/PAL business is just one of timing.
> Well sure you can have the game working on your NTSC machine. But unless
> you redraw the graphics, you'll have to play the games with the bottom
> portion (or some portion) of the screen missing. Do you know what kind of
> pain it is to re-draw all the graphics for a game so thatthey fit into 200
> vertical lines? And you can't have code in the software that does some
> type of scaling either. One solution is to make games all use NTSC screen
> dimensions. But then don't PAL users have the right to complain that they
> have a thick black band on their screen and that their screens are not
> being fully used?
>
I'd be a lot easier to write games to either work in PAL & NTSC or use
NTSC screen dimensions in the first place than to go back in later and try
to hack in a solution.
> The other solution is to make 2 completely different
> versions. And this takes time. It's the time that immature users like
> you don't want to put up with. Well then, program your own games in the
> mean-time ok?
>
Thing is that it could've been done right in the first place.
> There are far more serious things wrong with C= right now.
>
Unfortunately yes, and Commodore is going to have a hard time selling CD32s
in NTSC areas to make money to get out of its problems. I'm starting to
believe the main reason they haven't really released CD32 in North America
is the lack of NTSC titles. The software companies of course now aren't
going to spend extra money on NTSC versions until Commodore can actually show
NTSC CD32 sales. And unfortunately, Craig consumer (me) is starting to think
twice about buying a CD32 because I realize that all these titles I heard
about and wanted to get are PAL only and may never be released in NTSC.
> Bruno
> Hybrid Developments
>
> And yes, our software will run for NTSC, PAL, SECAM or whatever screwed
> system you want to throw at it.
>
Well, thank you for your support. Maybe you should get on other developers
cases to write NTSC compatable software instead of your customers.
Craig
Mike Farren
>Pejoratives aside, there IS a point there: there are *standards*
>for programming the Amiga and it is just unprofessional not to code
>up to snuff.
Always was - but more on this in a little bit.
>Apple was VERY overbearing about insisting that their developers
>toe the line, and it mostly paid off. C-A, among their many
>faults, seems not ot have cared much that Amiga software be written
>'up to snuff',
Hey - that's not fair. They (we? I used to work for 'em) cared a lot,
but there's only so much you can do, especially when you're faced with
a bunch of developers, so-called, who just don't give a damn about all
that because it's too hard, or causes their game to slow down to 59
frames per second, or (the excuses are endless). What got to me the
most was the number of people who were *told* that what they were doing
would cause problems, but went ahead and did it anyway.
>It should be *commodore* out there yelling at developers for
>segmenting the already-too-small amiga market and buliding-in
>obsolescence.
We yelled - but our voices were pretty small. It's a lot different than
the Mac marketplace. There, the *customers* were the ones who did the
yelling - a product which wouldn't work on the snazziest Mac didn't get
very far. For the Amiga, partly because of its low-end status, partly
because the market never was a unified thing, it just didn't seem to
matter all that much - certainly not enough for the developers to listen,
anyhow. I know they never listened to *us* :-)
--
Michael J. Farren far...@netcom.com
"Are we getting paid for this?"
"You don't."
Bruno Fernandes
>That's fine, but you won't find me in your customer base.
That's fine. Because I came out on the net with a better argument...
Well, I can take that. It's you who will be missing some nice
software, not me that will be missing one sale.
You seem to forget: You are not the customer of the people making the
games in PAL you complain about. They are not losing a customer because
you don't buy their game. They made it for the people who want/need PAL
software. When they want your money, they'll make an NTSC version. You
seem to take the software business as too personal an affair. The product
is up from grabs and does X & Y. If you need something to do Z, then you
ask nicely or of course buy another product. It's always been like that.
Always will. Some people such as myself will always want to offer A B C
through X Y and Z though to make everyone happy.
Also, C= market the hardware. They are in no way responsible for what
people chose to program for it.
Bruno
Hybrid Developments
Bruno Fernandes
Bernie, you want to know why I'm a develper? Because I am tired of crappy
software. I know I can do better myself and will. Even if only to
satisfy myself. I won't ever release anything as FREEware that does not
at least match up to some good commercial software - all these current
freeware games and shareware games are absolute zilch. And I would never
release something with a commercial price that was as bad as some of the
stuff I have seen floating about: Team 17's Apache for instance.
I have also always been a consumer and will always be.
As far as NTSC/PAL goes. That has absolutle nothing to do with
system-compliant code. What pains me is when uninformed people try and
sling around words and concepts they have no clue about. No matter what
their intentions. What's to say that someone programming in NTSC is not
the one at fault? We're not talking about timing problems here. Any
modern Amiga has the ability to sync into many resolutions. It is fully
permisable to have a resolution of 320x256. PAL users just happen to have
that as their standard display. For NTSC you are now talking over-scan
sizes or if you sync to 50Hz then you'll be fine. The problem here lies
in that the CD^32 must currently be connected to a TV. TV's do not like
signals of different standards - unless you have a more modern and costly
model.
If you make a game with some very stunning graphics in 200 line then of
course everyone will be able to see them while running NTSC. People in
PAL countries will have a huge black border on their screen. Just big
empty void. If you sync their machines to NTSC it will fill their entire
screen like over here - but then you've got the same problem but on a
different continent - TV's don't like that. PAL itself is not a coding
problem. There are times when a game does indeed use only 200 lines but
because of bad programming will require the machine to be a PAL machine,
etc (that's simply bad code - it could easily be made to run on any
machine). Then though there are products with artwork that occupy the
entire screen. You're looking at a major conversion here unless you can
get by with missing a section of screen (i.e. it will still run in NTSC
but of course you've got this huge screen that gets partially hidden by
your monitor's case, etc). Then there are programs with gadgets. If I
wanted a global market I would definately always make sure everything
could fit on everyone's screen - if not then run interlace. :)
I made a point about markets above. Just because a game is released, a
lot of people think it is for a global market. It is very possible that
the programmers made the game for their LOCAL market. If they have
intentions to release it for other markets, then so be it. If they don't
then you're looking at either buying it as is or not buying it at all -
they're not counting on your sales. A company like Team 17 goes through
publishers. Their games always get published in the UK first. As far as
CD^32 goes, none of their current titles have been published here. Often
as part of protection, programers will make sure versions published for
certain standards will only run on that standard (even though the
resolution might be compatible everywhere).
Many people on this thread are machine too many things together. There is
development and marketting are not one and the same - often they don't
even communicate with each other. :) You're also confusing C= with game
developers. C= does not control its developers like SEGA or NINTENDO.
And even with those companies you will notice certain games are for
SPECIFIC markets and will never be released in certain countries (you can
always import of course - but then you might need a hack to have it work).
For many developers of CD^32 software the market is currently UK-based.
Their priority is getting some softare out, period. Not taking extra time
to release NTSC versions when there will be very little to be gained from
it. Sometimes those versions are worked on by other people. Instead of
moaning about it, go out and buy a CD^32 to show them that people on this
side of the pond are serious about supporting a CD-based platform. In
time you will see all of these titles make their way over here. Right now
we're getting quick ports and quick fixes mostly because of the
hurry-hurry attitude of the market. They have to compete on some level
rather than no level to get some market share.
I'd say the CD^32 is worth it alone for the video capabilities. I
wouldn't have a problem buying one while knowing thatI could not get all
the block-buster games right now. Sure this is a problem for marketing it
to all the kids - but that's C='s marketting problem and one they'll have
to deal with. That's probably one of the reasons the intro-pack includes
the best version of Microcosm on any platform and the Chaos Engine. If
the CDTV had a better loading mechanism I'd buy one just for CD+G. :) (at
current rock-bottom prices of course :)
Bruno
Hybrid Developments
BTW, when we finally do start releasing product, I want to see all the
people that complain about unfriendly software that doesn't multi-task or
HD-Install or doesn't run on your 060 with IVS24 screen modes, etc. buying
some quality from us. :)
Philip McDunnough
[ ]
>I agree to an extent. While there have been close to 60 titles
>available in UK for the CD32, at last count there were only about
>15 titles available at my local dealer here in Calgary...and that
>includes CDTV stuff!
Well then you've got a poor dealer. In fact Amiga dealers are really not the
proper place to be selling CD32's. Hopefully that will come to an end soon.
There are more than 15 CD32 titles over here. What is annoying is the PAL
issue itself, and the developers' complete disregard for programming.
Assuming it's impossible to get the programmers to change, then perhaps we
need a way to convert CD32 signals on the fly to NTSC. The converters here
cost $200CDN. Despite what people may think it's not just a matter of
fiddling with the vertical hold (which as was pointed out is not accessible
on most modern TV's in Canada). By the way, there is no such thing as
C= NA. There is a C= Canada, C= International, etc...
Philip McDunnough
(1) C= has been aware of the PAL/NTSC issue for a long time. They themselves
have encouraged programmers to program in such a way as to deal with the
"problem".
(2) Would you please provide some factual information regarding "Commodore"
(which one?) going bankcrupt? If not, then basically don't say anything.
(3) I did not buy a CD32 to put it on a 13" monitor...In fact I sold a 1084S
just a while ago. To me the CD32 belongs on a TV. I'd rather, but won't,
buy a TV which accepts all the available signals. These are perhaps $500
more, but I'm not in the market for a TV.
(4) I saved up a long time for the FMV+CD32 combination, as it was a personal
purchase and not some business expense. I don't think you are in any
position to comment on what I can and can't afford.
In short, I continue to feel that the CD32 is worth having provided the PAL/NTSCissue is addressed.
Philip McDunnough
>phi...@utstat.toronto.edu (Philip McDunnough) writes:
>
>>That's fine, but you won't find me in your customer base.
>
>That's fine. Because I came out on the net with a better argument...
>Well, I can take that. It's you who will be missing some nice
>software, not me that will be missing one sale.
You came out with some idiotic statement implying that one should buy a better
TV. What can I say?
>You seem to forget: You are not the customer of the people making the
>games in PAL you complain about. They are not losing a customer because
>you don't buy their game. They made it for the people who want/need PAL
>software. When they want your money, they'll make an NTSC version. You
>seem to take the software business as too personal an affair. The product
>is up from grabs and does X & Y. If you need something to do Z, then you
>ask nicely or of course buy another product. It's always been like that.
>Always will. Some people such as myself will always want to offer A B C
>through X Y and Z though to make everyone happy.
The issue of PAL only software has been addressed by a number a people. It is
clear that this has fragmented and hurt the Amiga. One might compare this to
the Mac world where these developers wouldn't last a week.
>Also, C= market the hardware. They are in no way responsible for what
>people chose to program for it.
C= also provide an OS, or hadn't you heard?
Bernie Cosell
} Bernie, you want to know why I'm a develper?
No, actually --- did I ask?
} ... Because I am tired of crappy
} software. I know I can do better myself and will. Even if only to
} satisfy myself. I won't ever release anything as FREEware that does not
} at least match up to some good commercial software - all these current
} freeware games and shareware games are absolute zilch.
Well good for you. And have you perfected your machining skills so
you can make a camera that meets your high standards, and is your
welding up to snuff so you can produce an automobile that meets
your high standards? What _is_ your point?
If you took my comments personally, I'm sorry about that: I tried
very hard to write the stuff in the distant-third-person, talking
about unprofessional developers in the abstract and such. The
problem here seems to be that you don't think that *NOT* segmenting
the Amiga market is a worthwhile criterion for a professional
developer, and I do.
} As far as NTSC/PAL goes. That has absolutle nothing to do with
} system-compliant code. What pains me is when uninformed people try and
} sling around words and concepts they have no clue about. No matter what
} their intentions. What's to say that someone programming in NTSC is not
} the one at fault?
Get off your high horse, for chrissake. Go reread my posting,
mister super-software. What I *said* was that developers that
_segment_ the market are at fault. That means NTSC-only as much as
it means PAL-only. Did I type that slow enough for you to catch it
this time, or should I try it _again_, maybe double spaced? And if
Commodore's 'compliance rules' don't include that type of
compatibility, they *THEY'RE* a bunch of chuckleheads, too.
If you're a professional and developing something for the Amiga,
I think you're a fool [and more importantly, doing the Amiga a
disservice] if you've taken "shortcuts" in your implementation that
seriously segments the marketplace.
} ... We're not talking about timing problems here.
Exactly right: we're talking marketing and professionalism. There isn't
really much of a technical issue surrounding this. Another similar one
is ECS/AGA which, again, strikes me as penny wise pound foolish in terms
of marketing.
} If you make a game with some very stunning graphics in 200 line then of
} course everyone will be able to see them while running NTSC. People in
} PAL countries will have a huge black border on their screen. Just big
} empty void. If you sync their machines to NTSC it will fill their entire
} screen like over here - but then you've got the same problem but on a
} different continent - TV's don't like that.
See, that's the type of thing I'm talking about: complaining that it is
too hard to do right, and so it is the *consumer's* fault. So do some
extra work and get your 'stunning graphics' to do the right thing... that's
the professional thing, no?
} I made a point about markets above. Just because a game is released, a
} lot of people think it is for a global market. It is very possible that
} the programmers made the game for their LOCAL market. If they have
} intentions to release it for other markets, then so be it. If they don't
} then you're looking at either buying it as is or not buying it at all -
} they're not counting on your sales.
Right --- that's obviously what is happening. What I'm claiming is that
that is _unprofessional_ and is *hurting* the Amiga. If you want to
write code for your friends down the block, that's fine, but don't pretend
to be a top-shelf professional developer.
} ... You're also confusing C= with game
} developers. C= does not control its developers like SEGA or NINTENDO.
} And even with those companies you will notice certain games are for
} SPECIFIC markets and will never be released in certain countries (you can
} always import of course - but then you might need a hack to have it work).
No, I wasn't: try rereading my posting again [do you ALWAYS fly off on
these self-incited rants?]. I *criticized* C-A for not doing that.
I *agree*. I think that C-A should have been knocking heads all along.
Remember the 1.3->2.0 upgrade. Now THAT was a bit of better marketing
and management... really _leaning_ on developers to make their programs
compatible and compliant and such. I was just lamenting that they allowed
their developers too much rein, the developers were not really professional
enough [or had too shallow a horizon] to take up the slack, and as a result
their market is ALL cut up. Why didn't they handle ECS->AGA the way they
handled 1.3->2.0. rather than just abandoning the ECS folk?
} For many developers of CD^32 software the market is currently UK-based.
} Their priority is getting some softare out, period.
I know about this kind of thing. I've worked in systems
development for a long time and I know all about the pressures of
the marketplace. Again: pressure or not, _segmenting_ the
marketplace is not a particularly professional position, and C-A
ought to be taking the lead to put pressure on developers NOT to do
that. It is understandable, and all software developers have to
make compromises of this type for one thing or another [the one
that killed us was having to decide between SysV Unix and BSD
Unix]. But the point is that professionals will acknowledge that
it *was* a compromise, rather than blaming the consumer for owning
the wrong thing.
/Bernie\
--
Philip McDunnough
[ ]
>No No, it's taken years for the software co's to actually use PAL. The last
>thing we want is a return to the old black border at the bottom third of the
>screen!!!
Noone is suggesting not using PAL! The ideal situation would be to have the
sw make the choice, or have a selector to do it.
Bruno Fernandes
Bernie: _YOU_ go back and read your original post.
We are not talking about ECS/AGA compatibility. It is a joke to have a
program work under all circumstances except some very few (99.9%
compatibility is what I'm talking about now).
You still seem to completely ignore what we're _specifically_ talking
about. I have never blamed the customer. Poeple here in North America
are not customers for UK-Only games to start with. We were talking about
NTSC and PAL screens. The only true solution (as much as you can call it
one) would be to provide TWO versions of the game. One in 200 lines and
one in 256. That's exactly what is being done in some cases. It's just
that people have this problem with patience and aren't willing to wait for
a new version. It's not trivial having to re-draw all the graphics in a
game (this has nothing to do with system-compliant code at all).
Don't blame developers for segmenting the population. The market IS a
segmented one PERIOD. There is NTSC and there is PAL. There's no way
around that. Again, we are also talking about CD^32. If we were talking
about Amigas on monitors then this issue is completely trivial after the
ECS Agnus. The problem is in that the CD^32 must be connected to a TV.
Therefore you can't have any special graphics modes that the system
supports.
The story is the same for the other consoles. There is a PAL and there is
an NTSC market. The only people who run each other's games: people who
buy imported games not actually released by the companies in their
countries and pirates.
Right now it is much more important to get a base of games out for the
CD^32 where its market is largest. The unit has _just_ started to ship in
the US - NTSC software has not been a priority (there just have not been
enough units in Canada to warrant this). You'll start to see many more
conversions or discs that come with 2 versions - or games that just use
200 lines period.
This whole thread is only of importance to CD^32 owners or future CD^32
owners. Too bad some people just aren't patient enough. Some people will
just go calling programmers "immature" and "stupid" without any basis at
all.
Bruno
Hybrid Developments
Bruno Fernandes
Philip McDunnough <phi...@utstat.toronto.edu> wrote:
>In article <guest...@zigzag.junct9.royle.org> gu...@zigzag.junct9.royle.org (Tony Marshall) writes:
>[ ]
>
>>No No, it's taken years for the software co's to actually use PAL. The last
>>thing we want is a return to the old black border at the bottom third of the
>>screen!!!
>
>Noone is suggesting not using PAL! The ideal situation would be to have the
>sw make the choice, or have a selector to do it.
What you're talking of now is what I mentioned earlier: TWO versions of
the game. That's what will happen: both on one disc or different discs
for each. PAL versions are being done first because that is where the
market lies. Be patient and maybe you'll get some NTSC versions before
you dump your CD^32.
Bruno
Hybrid Developments.
Alen Koebel
but in reality this isn't happening. On the other hand the difficulty of
running PAL games on NTSC CD^32's may indeed have a negative impact on the
acceptance of CD^32 in North America (since the reality is that most
Amiga/CD^32 games are written in Europe).
Running PAL software on an NTSC Amiga (and NTSC software on a PAL Amiga)
has always been more difficult than it should be (years ago it wasn't
possible at all because there were two different Agnuses). Different
software reacts in different ways. A minority of games and applications
switch over to a PAL screen automatically. Others open on an NTSC screen
with the bottom missing. Some programs won't work at all or will crash
the machine. Using PAL boot from the startup menu sometimes works but most
times doesn't (Degrader works more consistently). Even if it worked all
the time, having to boot the whole machine into PAL or NTSC mode is not
an elegent solution. On the CD^32, it's a totally unacceptable solution.
Even if consumers accepted it (can it be done with the controller or do
you need a mouse!?), how would you explain the madly rolling screen if
their TV couldn't handle the 50 Hz vertical sync rate?
It is a little ironic that the very same property that gave the Amiga its
market, namely video-rate output, has hindered its world-wide acceptance.
--
al...@electro.electro.com is Alen Koebel at Electrohome Ltd.,
Kitchener, ON, Canada Tel: (519) 744-7111 Fax: (519) 749-3136
Philip McDunnough
[ ]
>>Noone is suggesting not using PAL! The ideal situation would be to have the
>>sw make the choice, or have a selector to do it.
>
>What you're talking of now is what I mentioned earlier: TWO versions of
>the game. That's what will happen: both on one disc or different discs
>for each. PAL versions are being done first because that is where the
>market lies. Be patient and maybe you'll get some NTSC versions before
>you dump your CD^32.
I have no intentions of dropping the CD32. I simply indicated that I was
broke, especially after buying a PAL ( real thing- also SECUM and NTSC) TV
only to have the CD32 play in monochrome when connected via the composite
port ( when in PAL mode and playing PAL disks).
I'm not suggesting 2 versions of the game. I was suggesting either an
automatic video flag or, if necessay, a requester type one.
I'm pretty patient. I doubt the rest of the NTSC world is though, given the
competition. What is the big deal? You've even had an ex-C= employee who
knows post a message on the issue. Programs should be hard drive installable,
PAL/NTSC/SECUM/etc...idiot proof, and available for purchase. As far as I
can tell this simply isn't the case.
>Bruno
>Hybrid Developments.
Adam Lawrence Salter
Ah. Yes. Well. Hmm. When I said Commodore was going bankrupt I may have been
a mite hasty :->. My point was that they don't currently care about the
problem. They may or may not be going bankrupt. I can speak more detachedly
now that I sold my stock in Commodore :->.
I only meant by the comment about being able to afford a 1084 that you could
afford a 1084. And I still think you could, I didn't say you could afford one
of those monstrous multi-standard TVs. Personally I don't like screens over
"13, you can see the individual pixels from 10 feet and they put out enough
radiation to microwave your dinner.
No-one who owns a CD32 and FMV cartridge should complain about money
troubles, ya got to have a pretty good standard of living to afford useless
entertainment thingamees. And please note I love the CD32 and I'm gonna buy
one soon but it is patently useless.
Borge Noest
>I'm pretty patient.
Well, in some cases you might have to be infinitely patient.
Designing _backgrounds_ for different size screens can have its
implications. Case in point: a Gauntlet type game. There is no problem in
just using a smaller view, but if you have transporters that move you from
one visible transporter to another then the second one could suddenly be
out of view in NTSC, which would screw the game.
I seem to remember the levels of the Gauntlet port had to be changed to fit
a 192x192 screen. (It had no PAL specific version.)
>Philip McDunnough
--
|/// bor...@stud.cs.uit.no (Børge Nøst) | Amiga 4000/040 \\\|
|// Box 218, 9001 Tromsoe, Norway | Remember to :-) when needed \\|
|/ The worlds northernmost university | Life is worth living. \|
#Disclaimer: This university does not speak for me.
Turmoil
As a North American Amiga owner I have simply always run nearly
everything in PAL. It just looks better...The complaint shouold really
be directed to the FCC. They are the ones with stuck in the past with
shitty old NTSC. PAL is higher resoltion and I hope that all the CD32
games come out in PAL. They look better then NTSC any day....
just my nickels worth...
Have A Nice Day tur...@hebron.connected.com
Philip McDunnough
>
>As a North American Amiga owner I have simply always run nearly
>everything in PAL. It just looks better...The complaint shouold really
>be directed to the FCC. They are the ones with stuck in the past with
>shitty old NTSC. PAL is higher resoltion and I hope that all the CD32
>games come out in PAL. They look better then NTSC any day....
Certainly PAL VCR tapes are way better than NTSC ones. I have no problem
with that. Just figure out a way to get my CD32 to work in colour on a
PAL TV, and I'll get out of the way! I don't want it on a 13" monitor. I
want it on a 29" TV. That was the point of the whole thing.
> just my nickels worth...
> Have A Nice Day tur...@hebron.connected.com
I'm not having a nice day...
Charles E Rick Taylor IV
>shitty old NTSC. PAL is higher resoltion and I hope that all the CD32
>games come out in PAL. They look better then NTSC any day....
You *like* 50Hz? Hmm - makes my eyes bug out after so long ...
--
_ ___ _ _ _ |<<<<< -----EMAIL----- >>>>>| So this is it,
|_)o _ |/ | |_|\_/| / \|_) |cha...@hubcap.clemson.edu | we're going to
| \||_ |\ | | | | |_\_/| \ |cha...@eng.clemson.edu | die ...
Charles E "Rick" Taylor, IV |cha...@clemson.clemson.edu| - Arthur Dent
Zsolt Szabo
>>shitty old NTSC. PAL is higher resoltion and I hope that all the CD32
>>games come out in PAL. They look better then NTSC any day....
>
>You *like* 50Hz? Hmm - makes my eyes bug out after so long ...
Nonsense! The PAL system is much better than NTSC. It was developed
later, and not only has higher resolution, but also a much better color
correcting system (NTSC=never the same color, remember?). As for the 50Hz
signal, you can forget that argument. I lived in Germany for 12 years,
and now in the US for 6, and I can tell you, FROM EXPERIENCE, that PAL is
better. You don't NOTICE the 50 Hz refresh rate, even when your Amiga is
hooked up to the TV.
Rich Yauman
What is needed is for the CD^32 to be able to sense what the program is
running in. For example if you were using a PAL game on an NTSC machine
it would automatically shrink the height of the screen to fit and you
would have a black band down both sides of the screen. On the other
hand if you ran an NTSC program on a PAL machine the black bands would
be across the top and bottom. Of course if you had another solution
you would boot the CD32 in the mode of the program. But the thing is
everyone would be able to see the entire screen the programmers designed
the way they designed it.
--
Rich Yauman ac...@yfn.ysu.edu / Only AMIGA USERS make it possible /
------------------------------ / ^^^^^ /
If at first you don't succeed /_____________________________________/
Force it. If it breaks, it needed replaced anyway. -a Murphy's Law /
Jyrki Petsalo
>exist only in Europe and have a few CD32's in Canada,the US, Japan,...then
You NTSC ppl have the Toaster.
It's only fair that we have the CD32 games.
(:
-JP
Stefan Boberg
>Bernie, you want to know why I'm a develper? Because I am tired of crappy
>software. I know I can do better myself and will. Even if only to
>satisfy myself. I won't ever release anything as FREEware that does not
>at least match up to some good commercial software - all these current
>freeware games and shareware games are absolute zilch. And I would never
>release something with a commercial price that was as bad as some of the
>stuff I have seen floating about: Team 17's Apache for instance.
Just for the record, `Apache' was never ever charged for. It was simply
a freebie bundled with early copies of Alien Breed II and Body Blows
Galactic. If you had played the originals of these games, and not pirated,
you may have noticed it.
>As far as NTSC/PAL goes. That has absolutle nothing to do with
>system-compliant code. <...>
Thank you. I've been trying to get this point across without any success.
> <...> A company like Team 17 goes through
>publishers. <...>
We *are* publishers. We don't need to go through any others. What you mean
is that our games need distributors to get to the consumers. As far as I
know, Team 17 has no deals with any US distributor. Not for Amiga games,
anyhow.
>Bruno
>Hybrid Developments
> eaten together." - D. Cooper | e0f1...@credit.erin.utoronto.ca
--
Stefan Boberg, Amiga/SEGA/CD32 programmer - Team 17 Software / LhA Devel.
Applied Physics and Electrical Engineering Student, Linkoping University
InterNet: bob...@lysator.liu.se bob...@team17.adsp.sub.org
========== Disclaimer: I only speak for myself, not Team 17. ============
Stefan Boberg
An OS which is practically useless for games, I'd like to add.
>Philip McDunnough
>phi...@utstat.toronto.edu
Ralph Barbagallo
Geez...I never thought Apache was *THAT* bad. The parallax
scrolling was quite nice... and hey, it was FREE. I like free stuff,
who doesn't. :)
--
Ralph A.Barbagallo III_Only AMIGA Makes it Possible!_nug...@genesis.nred.ma.us
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A T A R I J A G U A R
6 4 - B I T I N T E R A C T I V E M U L T I M E D I A S Y S T E M
Adrian C. Black
> phi...@utstat.toronto.edu (Philip McDunnough) writes:
>>In article <CnnM...@erin.utoronto.ca> e0f1...@tuzo.erin (Bruno Fernandes) writes:
>
>>>Also, C= market the hardware. They are in no way responsible for what
>>>people chose to program for it.
>
>>C= also provide an OS, or hadn't you heard?
>
> An OS which is practically useless for games, I'd like to add.
>
There is nothing wrong with pal except that it has HORRIBLE flicker. I really
do not understand how people can look at a computer screen with a refresh rate
of 50Hz. I find that 56hz on my IBM even flickers way too much. It gives you
headaches.
But seriously. If a programmer makes a game in PAL, well, they might as well
forget the American market. I like playing games hooked up to my TV. It's
more fun on a 20inch screen than on a small 13" but almost all games don't work
in NTSC properly and therefor don't work on a television. It's a same.
Stefan Boberg
>There is nothing wrong with pal except that it has HORRIBLE flicker. I really
>do not understand how people can look at a computer screen with a refresh rate
>of 50Hz. I find that 56hz on my IBM even flickers way too much. It gives you
>headaches.
I can tell you that 50Hz does not flicker around here. How much flicker
you see depends most of all on what type of screen you have. Monitors with
long persistence hide the flicker pretty well. The vector screens in the
radar stations I was trained to handle in the army had a screen update of
something like 20Hz, but they didn't flicker, because they had extremely
slow phosphors.
And on some newer monitors, even 60Hz flickers unbearably.
Borge Noest
>There is nothing wrong with pal except that it has HORRIBLE flicker. I really
>do not understand how people can look at a computer screen with a refresh rate
>of 50Hz. I find that 56hz on my IBM even flickers way too much. It gives you
>headaches.
Get yourself a suitable monitor. One with slow enough phosphor(sp?) to not
flicker with PAL. My 1084 with my PAL machine with my 50Hz lightning with
me wearing glasses has never ever given me any flicker problems. But I hear
many complain about DBLPAL, probably because they use multisync monitors
with faster phosphor.
Philip McDunnough
>
>What is needed is for the CD^32 to be able to sense what the program is
>running in. For example if you were using a PAL game on an NTSC machine
>it would automatically shrink the height of the screen to fit and you
>would have a black band down both sides of the screen. On the other
>hand if you ran an NTSC program on a PAL machine the black bands would
>be across the top and bottom. Of course if you had another solution
>you would boot the CD32 in the mode of the program. But the thing is
>everyone would be able to see the entire screen the programmers designed
>the way they designed it.
This is certainly a step in the right direction, but that won't be enough. You'dhave to deal with (1)the vertical sync issue and (2) the colourburst frame
rate difference. Basically the Amiga does not put out PAL completely ( or
NTSC on a PAL Amiga completely). It puts out a subset of PAL. There may be
an easy solution, but it is odd that the myth of the Amiga dealing with both
PAL and NTSC has lasted this long. An NTSC user wishing to run a PAL program
on a TV has to boot into PAL and have the TV in PAL+NTSC-50 (laserdisc mode).
Otherwise you get a monochrome image. None of this happens on RGB monitors
which sync down to 15, but there aren't many of those.
The problem is quite serious and most developers refuse to address it.
> Rich Yauman ac...@yfn.ysu.edu / Only AMIGA USERS make it possible /
>------------------------------ / ^^^^^ /
--
Philip McDunnough
Heh...one of the things which has actually hurt the Amiga is the view that is
is really only a "multimedia" machine, whatever that is. Most people can't
afford $100,000+ setup's. I'd rather see the CD32 titles, and let you have the
Toaster...!
Philip McDunnough
>phi...@utstat.toronto.edu (Philip McDunnough) writes:
>>In article <CnnM...@erin.utoronto.ca> e0f1...@tuzo.erin (Bruno Fernandes) writes:
>
>>>Also, C= market the hardware. They are in no way responsible for what
>>>people chose to program for it.
>
>>C= also provide an OS, or hadn't you heard?
>
> An OS which is practically useless for games, I'd like to add.
Well, you should know as you insist on programming floppy based, PAL only
titles. It's a shame Team 17 produces nice stuff, otherwise I'd like to
see the whole lot of you go broke.
>--
>Stefan Boberg, Amiga/SEGA/CD32 programmer - Team 17 Software / LhA Devel.
> Applied Physics and Electrical Engineering Student, Linkoping University
> InterNet: bob...@lysator.liu.se bob...@team17.adsp.sub.org
>========== Disclaimer: I only speak for myself, not Team 17. ============
--
Charles E Rick Taylor IV
>Nonsense! The PAL system is much better than NTSC. It was developed
>later, and not only has higher resolution, but also a much better color
>correcting system (NTSC=never the same color, remember?). As for the 50Hz
>signal, you can forget that argument. I lived in Germany for 12 years,
>and now in the US for 6, and I can tell you, FROM EXPERIENCE, that PAL is
>better. You don't NOTICE the 50 Hz refresh rate, even when your Amiga is
>hooked up to the TV.
*I* do notice 50Hz ... the things that bugged me while I was in london
was that I could see fluorescent lights and televisions flickering ... :)
Both NTSC and PAL systems are archaic and should be dumped, though
... why? How many of you can still hear 15kHz sound? Both NTSC and
PAL sync to 15kHz - which means that you can hear the whine from just
about *every* TV and 15 kHz monitor there is ... (Ahh, new monitors
and the display enhancer are such paradise ... if only I could use it
in the living room! ;) )
Charles E Rick Taylor IV
>There is nothing wrong with pal except that it has HORRIBLE flicker. I really
>do not understand how people can look at a computer screen with a refresh rate
>of 50Hz. I find that 56hz on my IBM even flickers way too much. It gives you
>headaches.
Finally - someone else not afraid to speak out! :)
>But seriously. If a programmer makes a game in PAL, well, they might as well
>forget the American market.
True, but not because you can't make the games work. True because
people are lazy and they don't want to mess with the vertical hold and
have to remember to boot the machine into PAL mode by holding down the
buttons, etc. They just want to pop the game in and play.
Philip McDunnough
[ ]
>*I* do notice 50Hz ... the things that bugged me while I was in london
>was that I could see fluorescent lights and televisions flickering ... :)
I don't on my Multisystem TV. PAL is far better, especially for anything with
motion. The colours are way better, picture crisp,...On a still picture I do
notice a bit of flickering, but I quickly got used to it. It must vary with
the type of TV you use.
>Both NTSC and PAL systems are archaic and should be dumped, though
>... why? How many of you can still hear 15kHz sound? Both NTSC and
>PAL sync to 15kHz - which means that you can hear the whine from just
>about *every* TV and 15 kHz monitor there is ... (Ahh, new monitors
>and the display enhancer are such paradise ... if only I could use it
>in the living room! ;) )
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for NTSC and PAL to be dumped. I used to thinkHDTV was going to solve the problem. This was years ago, and special interest
groups are still pushing their designs. Life is short. We won't see digital
TV for a long time.
Bruno Fernandes
Charles E "Rick" Taylor IV <cha...@hubcap.clemson.edu> wrote:
>robo...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Zsolt Szabo) writes:
>
>>Nonsense! The PAL system is much better than NTSC. It was developed
>>later, and not only has higher resolution, but also a much better color
>>correcting system (NTSC=never the same color, remember?). As for the 50Hz
>>signal, you can forget that argument. I lived in Germany for 12 years,
>>and now in the US for 6, and I can tell you, FROM EXPERIENCE, that PAL is
>>better. You don't NOTICE the 50 Hz refresh rate, even when your Amiga is
>>hooked up to the TV.
>
>*I* do notice 50Hz ... the things that bugged me while I was in london
>was that I could see fluorescent lights and televisions flickering ... :)
>
>Both NTSC and PAL systems are archaic and should be dumped, though
>... why? How many of you can still hear 15kHz sound? Both NTSC and
>PAL sync to 15kHz - which means that you can hear the whine from just
>about *every* TV and 15 kHz monitor there is ... (Ahh, new monitors
>and the display enhancer are such paradise ... if only I could use it
>in the living room! ;) )
The last time I was in Europe was in 1992. I had the chance to watch
plenty of TV and also got to fool around with an Amiga on a few occassions
(I was in Portugal for 3 months during the summer). I can easily notice a
flickering on a PAL display running on an NTSC Amiga here in North
America. BUT, I noticed absolutely no flicker at all from any TV or
computer screen while in Portugal - that goes for the Amiga running with a
1084.
BTW, I can often notice flickering on lights even in North America.
Also, the fan from your computer puts out a whine and noise that will
overpower any whine from your monitors.
Bruno
Hybrid Developments
--
"Also believe that peanut butter | The ideas expressed may very well be my
and bacon have been neglected as | own.
food groups, particularly when |
Charles E Rick Taylor IV
>Also, the fan from your computer puts out a whine and noise that will
>overpower any whine from your monitors.
Who even *uses* a 15 kHz monitor for serious work (besides maybe
video) anymore? Almost *nobody*!
Lars Balker Rasmussen
>video) anymore? Almost *nobody*!
Yeah well... I've been called that before ;-)
--
Lars Balker Rasmussen
<a href="http://www.daimi.aau.dk/~gnort">My homepage</a>
Bruno Fernandes
>
>>Also, the fan from your computer puts out a whine and noise that will
>>overpower any whine from your monitors.
>
>Who even *uses* a 15 kHz monitor for serious work (besides maybe
>video) anymore? Almost *nobody*!
We're still in the PAL/NTSC thread and I guess it mainly applies to all
users. Most amiga people have 15kHz monitors. This is especially true
if we are speaking of the people likely to complain about the issues on
which this thread was based: games players.
Charles E Rick Taylor IV
>In article <charlet.766111526@hubcap>,
>Charles E "Rick" Taylor IV <cha...@hubcap.clemson.edu> wrote:
>>e0f1...@tuzo.erin (Bruno Fernandes) writes:
>>
>>>Also, the fan from your computer puts out a whine and noise that will
>>>overpower any whine from your monitors.
>>
>>Who even *uses* a 15 kHz monitor for serious work (besides maybe
>>video) anymore? Almost *nobody*!
>We're still in the PAL/NTSC thread and I guess it mainly applies to all
>users. Most amiga people have 15kHz monitors. This is especially true
>if we are speaking of the people likely to complain about the issues on
>which this thread was based: games players.
Anyway, my view on the
PAL/NTSC issues isn't that it's not possible to play PAL games on NTSC
TV's - since it *is* possible - US Amiga owners have been doing it for
years, and all it requires is some fine-tuning on the TV and booting
in PAL via any number of methods (the CD32 I'm told is hold down both
mouse buttons). It's the fact that the issue is there at all that
will kill off CD32 as a games machine. CD32 doesn't offer enough to
make the hassle of dealing with "Ok, this game is in PAL so I must
hold down the buttons and adjust the vertical hold - damn, where's the
scores?" *That* as much as anything will kill off CD32 in the US/Canada,
since no other system is made so that you have to even worry about it.
That, and the CD32 is neither visible nor available in most US games
stores - and neither are the games.
(BTW - most games palyers I know have access to a PC comaptible and
use that for games ... no 15 kHz monitor there. :) )
Peter Kittel Germany
>
>There is nothing wrong with pal except that it has HORRIBLE flicker. I really
>do not understand how people can look at a computer screen with a refresh rate
>of 50Hz.
People are different. Some can hear higher tones than others, some can see
higher flicker frequencies than others. For me, 50 Hz is no problem at all,
I use it all day with a 1084 monitor on my A3000.
--
Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions...
Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ pet...@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com
I narrowly survived CeBIT 94, anything else happened?
Ralph Barbagallo
: People are different. Some can hear higher tones than others, some can see
: higher flicker frequencies than others. For me, 50 Hz is no problem at all,
: I use it all day with a 1084 monitor on my A3000.
That's true. I think every year you lose a few hz off your hearing
sensitivity. As you get older you'll notice that you can't hear the whine
of monitors/TVs etc.
Perry S Kivolowitz
What do you think people would say if ADPro could only run from floppies
and it only ran on an NTSC system?
From a development standpoint, it is very simple to support both PAL
and NTSC modes (not to mention a whole bunch of new modes). Commodore
has (for years) provided developers with the necessary information
to make programs that are PAL and NTSC compatible.
The Amiga is sold worldwide and it is dumb to tie your software down
to a specific graphics standard (standards change, you know.)
I hate PAL booters (interferes w/ copy protection and the like.
Chris Edgin, ASDG tech.
Peter Kittel Germany
In article <Co954...@genesis.nred.ma.us>, nug...@genesis.nred.ma.us (Ralph Barbagallo) writes:
>
> That's true. I think every year you lose a few hz off your hearing
>sensitivity. As you get older you'll notice that you can't hear the whine
>of monitors/TVs etc.
In fact, I never heard that 15 kHz whining of a TV or monitor. I must
have built-in several low-pass filters... Luckily, this never hindered
me in playing music, only that always others in the band were good at
tuning string instruments. But then, as I played the piano, that was
never a big issue for me :-).
Tachyon
: In article <1994Apr9.1...@ida.liu.se> y91s...@odalix.ida.liu.se (Stefan Boberg) writes:
: >phi...@utstat.toronto.edu (Philip McDunnough) writes:
: >>In article <CnnM...@erin.utoronto.ca> e0f1...@tuzo.erin (Bruno Fernandes) writes:
: >
: >>>Also, C= market the hardware. They are in no way responsible for what
: >>>people chose to program for it.
: >
: >>C= also provide an OS, or hadn't you heard?
: >
: > An OS which is practically useless for games, I'd like to add.
: Well, you should know as you insist on programming floppy based, PAL only
: titles. It's a shame Team 17 produces nice stuff, otherwise I'd like to
: see the whole lot of you go broke.
What a staggeringly informative and useful post! To think that I could've
missed out on this truly enlightening missive if I had chosen to ignore this
thread. You really *do* add so much to this discussion!
Good grief.
I'm sick to death of seeing North Americans sneering at Stefan because he's
not a slave to the OS. I concur with his view and would also like to add
that he's in a far better position to appreciate the difficulties involved
than most of us.
: >--
: >Stefan Boberg, Amiga/SEGA/CD32 programmer - Team 17 Software / LhA Devel.
: > Applied Physics and Electrical Engineering Student, Linkoping University
: > InterNet: bob...@lysator.liu.se bob...@team17.adsp.sub.org
: >========== Disclaimer: I only speak for myself, not Team 17. ============
: --
: Philip McDunnough
: University of Toronto
: phi...@utstat.toronto.edu
: [Where sheep may safely graze...]
Parrish Heywood
Parrish...@guru.apana.org.au
Rob Tibshirani
[ ]
>: Well, you should know as you insist on programming floppy based, PAL only
>: titles. It's a shame Team 17 produces nice stuff, otherwise I'd like to
>: see the whole lot of you go broke.
>
> What a staggeringly informative and useful post! To think that I could've
>missed out on this truly enlightening missive if I had chosen to ignore this
>thread. You really *do* add so much to this discussion!
>
>Good grief.
Since this discussion has been ongoing for quite a while I'd suggest you
learn to read the thread before making these types of comments.
>I'm sick to death of seeing North Americans sneering at Stefan because he's
>not a slave to the OS. I concur with his view and would also like to add
>that he's in a far better position to appreciate the difficulties involved
>than most of us.
I have not been "sneering" at Stefan and you'd realize that if you'd only
learn to read. Let's get one thing staight. In North America, programs
will not sell unless they install to a HD. So, if you want to ignore a
market that spends far more on computing than most places on earth, that's
for you to judge. I simply view it as dumb.
--
Philip McDunnough OR P. McDunnough (U of Toronto-stats)
phi...@utstat.toronto.edu (NeXT Mail) phi...@utstat.toronto.edu (no NeXT)
[Where sheep may safely graze...] [Where sheep bite...]