** ESCOM CAUGHT IN ANOTHER LIE **

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J. Poag

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Sep 28, 1995, 3:00:00 AM9/28/95
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I felt this post deserved more attention than what it probably would
gotten had it not been brought to everyones attention:

Dig the following:

From: od...@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Andrew George Elia)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Fight for them Amigas!
Date: 28 Sep 1995 10:34:47 GMT

Hi guys!
It`s about time we started to give Escom (not necesarrily AT) a
good kicking.

I have been working in one of the Escom stores for the past four
months with the hope that I would be participating in some way towards
the re-introduction of the Amiga. If nothing else, I might be able to do
something from the inside or even get a staff discount. It seems that I
assumed that Escom UK would be just as willing to welcome back the Amiga
as the German parent company. Big mistake.

When I first applied for the job, I was asked to sit a test which
contained things about memory access times, and IRQ values. When I got
the job I would have had to go to a training session led by reps from
Intel, and IBM. I didn`t (couldn`t) go.

The bottom line is that I have contacted every single department
in our head office, and they don`t know a thing! In fact, some of them
tried to tell me that Escom bought the name and ditched the rest.

The reason that I am inflicting this on you all is that Amiga
Shopper and Amiga Format (November issues in each case) state that Amiga
Technologies have told them that Escom stores WILL be selling Amigas. I
contacted a certain person in AT, and he informed me that this would not
be the case because negotiations with Escom had failed. You may or may
not know that both Intel and IBM have pumped a hell of a lot of money
into the new Escom stores. I have a feeling that they have objected to
having Amigas in the stores (primarily because it proves that Intel
processors are kludged 70s crap, and IBM have blatantly tried (and
failed) to copy AmigaDOS/Workbench).

Worringly, AT told Amiga Shopper that the staff in Escom stores
know the Amiga product well and are ideally suited to selling them. This
is blatantly untrue. Not only do 70% of Escom staff consist of former
Rumbelows staff (ie. gormless box shifters), but those that I have spoken
to seem to be quite antagonistic towards Amigas. As for knowing anything
about them from either a software or hardware point of view, you have to
see their ignorance to believe it. They REALLY don`t know what they are
selling. This seems to apply to the 30% of new staff who are wholly PC
nerds. The branches I have talked to confirm that they get tonnes of
Amiga enquiries. I have found out from the Amiga Format letters page from
October (I think) that some shops have been denying that they had
anything to do with Amigas all along. In fact my own collegues drop
customers like hot potatoes the moment they find out they have Amigas.
Fortunately, if a customer hasn`t already left the shop (some do so
without bothering to ask -unsurprising considering the response they
others give) I put the record straight.

Basically, I think it`s suicide for Escom stores not to deal in
Amigas, their software and hardware. Although Escom and AT want
themselves to be considered separate entities, the link has already been
established. If the public can`t SEE Amigas, they will find it more
difficult to make a decision about buying one. For goodness sake, if you
are near an Escom store, don`t be afraid to go in and ASK about them. If
they give you the wrong answer, put them straight. Don`t let them give
you any rubbish about what they think is happening. They simply don`t know.

I have to confess that I hold a relatively menial position at
Escom (higher only than the window clear and the guy that collects the
rubbish bins). As such I am trying to get some management staff to back
me up. I`ve already compilied a survey which I`m planning on faxing over
to every store in London (and elsewhere if necessary) to try an
accumulate some evidence of demand for Amigas in Escom stores. I just
have to wait for managerial approval.

By the way. If it is true that AT are ditching the AAA chipset,
they should get their heads examined. Another thing: AmigaDOS is for the
Amiga, so why the hell do they want to develop it for machines with a
more limited architecture ? Here`s an idea: why not develop AmigaDOS for
the Amiga ? Smart people.

I challenge anyone from either Escom or Amiga Technologies to prove what I`ve said is
wrong. I hope I am. I HAVE sent E-Mail to Gilles Bourdin twice, and had no reply.

Andrew Elia
(Escom UK)

PS. Someone please shoot Mojo from Foundation Imaging and put him out of
his misery. He has been brainwashed by Intel. Read November`s Amiga
Shopper and you`ll know what I mean.


--


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Bowie J. Poag (b...@interaccess.com) 50 Mhz A2500HD/030/882,AmiTCP/IP 4.2
(I drive an '85 Dodge Omni, hate coffee, and listen to Devo. Bite me.)


Thomas Tavoly

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Sep 29, 1995, 3:00:00 AM9/29/95
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In article <44ej2b$3...@nntp.interaccess.com> b...@thymaster.interaccess.com (J. Poag) writes:

Hmm, I feel the subject line is not appropriate, since Escom never
officially promised to sell Amigas through Escom stores. In fact they (or
AT) said they *wouldn't*.

Apart from that, I went to one local Escom store (here in the Netherlands)
and asked about the Amiga. The salesman I talked to told me that they had
an internal 'press release' from management telling them they would start
selling Amigas in September. That was about two weeks ago. I haven't looked
yet, but beginning of October I'm going to have a look whether it's true.
(The wild rumour of every Escom store already having A4000T's behind their
counters is obviously untrue).

I then asked about what models they would be selling, he said he didn't
know, but probably the 1200 and the 400 (yes he said 400, not 4000. I
corrected him :) I also asked whether he or any other representative in the
store had experience with Amigas, whether they have had any training, or
would be getting any on the subject of Amigas, to which he replied with no,
no and don't know. I asked why they didn't know or aren't going to know
anything about the Amiga to which he replied that he is not a technician,
he only sells the stuff.

So my conclusions are: his reactions were pretty normal (he was actually
quite friendly and informative as it goes), these people don't know much
about Amigas and computers in general, they are salesmen and are usually
hired on the base of some little knowledge (like being able to install
software and knowing something about upgrading) and I guess a
'representable' looks/consumer friendliness. Nothing new there.

Apart from that, the fact that he heard something about the Amiga from
management tells me they *are* going to sell them. How soon and in what way
(probably not a prominent corner) remains to be seen. Judging from the way
the shop window was plastered with Win95 logo's I'd say they are heavily MS
influenced and regard the Amiga not as something with a high priority.


The haze surrounding AT, Escom and their relationship can also be
explained by a purposeful radiosilence before the attack. Be sure that
somewhere there are people all over the industry watching what's happening
to the Amiga. It's a cutthroat business and a new (hah) competitor with
such potential is not to be discounted.

AT is doing their best and should be left alone for the moment, they
haven't screwed up big time yet, it's only been a couple of months since
the auction. Although, as always, things could be done better, within the
frame of what's possible regarding manpower and financial backing from the
parent company, I think they haven't done that badly up to now. So, hold your
breath :) (and your flames) I think (hope) that there is significantly more
happening behind the screens than we hear about. Ideally they have by now
decided what RISC platform AmigaDOS 4.x is going to be developed for and
are secretly hiring engineers as not to alert the competition. The pessimist
in me says they are waiting for the Christmas season's results and decide
whether to ditch the Amiga or commit themselves to it *after* that. Or rather,
Escom are waiting for AT's results and decide whether they are going to
give them financial backing or not.

> [..] Another thing: AmigaDOS is for the


> Amiga, so why the hell do they want to develop it for machines with a
> more limited architecture ? Here`s an idea: why not develop AmigaDOS for
> the Amiga ? Smart people.

Actually, *AmigaDOS* is the Amiga, not the hardware. It would not be a bad
thing to finally abandon the custom chip architecture and move towards
industry standard (i.e. cheap) parts. AAA doesn't cut it anymore. Proprietary,
expensive and already outdated. I couldn't care less on what platform AmigaDOS
runs as long as it stays _AmigaDOS_ (and there's a reasonably fast 680x0
emulation available for old software that hasn't been ported yet). PPC & PCI
would be best IMHO.

> [..] I HAVE sent E-Mail to Gilles Bourdin twice, and had no reply.

He's a busy man, can't answer everyone with a gripe :)


-------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas Tavoly + A4000 = tta...@amiga.ow.nl | tta...@cistron.nl _
-I'm in therapy for Chronic Windows Defenestration Syndrome.._ //
---------------------------------------------- [.sig v3.1pl9] -\X/-


Jill E. Howe

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Sep 29, 1995, 3:00:00 AM9/29/95
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Andrew,

Good luck on your fax survey. It's a good idea and you have a lot of
initiative. Hopefully Escom-AT will see that and hire you @ AT.

Your situation Re: Escom storefront lackies who are know-nothings pushing
the IBM/Intel party line.... I know it well. In the US back in the late
80's, Sears (a major retail chain) had Amigas in their catalog, and were
just about to start putting Amigas on the shelves. Demand was good
enough to warrant it.

However, Sears had just been signed up with IBM as a "business partner".
And they were quietly working on Prodigy which is jointly owned by Sears
and IBM. Anyway, Sears pushes Prodigy bigtime, as you know.

IBM got Sears to drop the Amiga, knowing that a cheap A500 sitting next
to a high clocked 386, would make the 386 look real real bad. And IBM
had no interest in providing a Prodigy package for an Amiga (the Mac was
given one only because it's not a major threat to the clone world, and to
shore up poor initial signups for Prodigy [More Macs than Amigas]).
Better to only sell machines that you can make another profit on by
getting the customer to connect to Prodigy.

So you have a manufacturer (IBM) and a retailer (Sears) conspiring to
eliminate the competition platform (Amiga) from IBM's business partner's
(Sears) stores, in part because IBM and Sears now work together
on their joint venture (Prodigy). The Justice Department didn't do squat
to stop it. Maybe they didn't know?

I haven't bought ANYTHING from Sears since, and I let them know why.
This Xmas season all Amigans should stop by their local Sears, and tell
the Manager you'll not be shopping their anymore, and tell them why. And
tell them you'll be a customer again when they support the new Escom Amigas.

In reality I still wouldn't buy from Sears. IBM and Intel have horrible
environmental records (social and ethical problems also), so I won't
patronize their business partners (Sears).

BTW, if you guys like to frig up the competition at Sears, Montgomery
Wards, etc., those machines all have password protection running on them
now. Windoze, Mac, you name it. Here's a TIP: At most stores, the
password is the STORE NUMBER! Then feel free to reformat the HD :-),
or turn the wallpaper backdrop into an Amiga advertisement. Store #'s
are often on receipts, or you can ask for it via phone. DON'T WALK INTO
THE COMPUTER DEPARTMENT AND ASK FOR THE STORE #....that'd be too
obvious. Go into the bed or shoe department THEN ASK.


-Jill
The streets will flow with the blood of the segmented architectures.

Brian Skreeg

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Sep 29, 1995, 3:00:00 AM9/29/95
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While smelling of fish Jill E. Howe (oj...@sunyit.edu) wrote:

<some stuff>

Can we please stop crossposting to ALL amiga groups.

Misc or Advocacy will do for this sort of thing.

__ _ _
/ \ \ \
/ / / / / |-Brian Skreeg-----------Maniac-|
\__/ \ \ |-Lead guitarist extraordinaire-|
\__/_/ |-I don't look like two zombies-|

Patrick McKinnion

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Sep 29, 1995, 3:00:00 AM9/29/95
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In article
<Pine.ULT.3.91.950929...@pool.info.sunyit.edu>, "Jill E.
Howe" <oj...@sunyit.edu> wrote:

> BTW, if you guys like to frig up the competition at Sears, Montgomery
> Wards, etc., those machines all have password protection running on them
> now. Windoze, Mac, you name it. Here's a TIP: At most stores, the
> password is the STORE NUMBER! Then feel free to reformat the HD :-),
> or turn the wallpaper backdrop into an Amiga advertisement. Store #'s
> are often on receipts, or you can ask for it via phone. DON'T WALK INTO
> THE COMPUTER DEPARTMENT AND ASK FOR THE STORE #....that'd be too
> obvious. Go into the bed or shoe department THEN ASK.

And the above is a actually brillant way to insure that a) Sears will
not want to, or like to, carry the Escom Amiga, and b) insure that their
sales people will absolutely hate selling Amigas. If you want to piss
off the people that you're trying to get into selling the Amiga, by all
means do it.
The bozos in Sears computer dept. tend to push Packard Bells anyway -
PB gives them major bonuses for every unit sold, hence the reason they
shortchange the Mac, Compaq, and every other brand they sell.

- Patrick McKinnion
(Performa 630CD & A4000/040 owner and user)

--
-Brought to you by "Ouchies", the sharp, prickly toy you bathe with...
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Roberto Giacomelli

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Sep 30, 1995, 3:00:00 AM9/30/95
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I've read yesterday the prices of th "new" amigas in Italy.
They are crazy, is the first time that I see that an old compute like
the A1200 and the A4000 costs more than one year ago; normally after so
much time you expect half the price !!!
Who they think is going to buy an A1200 with 2 Mb RAM and 170 Mb HD for
1200000 Lire (little less than 1000 $) when is possible to buy a tower
Pentium at 75 MHz with 8 Mb RAM and 540 Mb HD for 2300000 Lire (~1450
$).
And even the software given with the to computers is comparable.
The A4000 will cost more than 6000000 Lire (~3750 $) !!!!
Noone will buy such computers at that prices and and we will loose all
those wonderful programmers for Amiga.

Amiga Technologies stated one month ago prices incredibly lower for new
and more powerful Amigas; and now were are they.
I have an A3000, an A2000 and a CD32+SX-1 and a month ago I was thinking
to buy one of the new Amigas they were talking about.
Now I'm thinking to buy an MS-Dos or a Power Mac !

Roberto

Janne Siren

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Sep 30, 1995, 3:00:00 AM9/30/95
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Roberto Giacomelli (giaco...@bo.infn.it) wrote:
: I've read yesterday the prices of th "new" amigas in Italy.

: They are crazy, is the first time that I see that an old compute like
: the A1200 and the A4000 costs more than one year ago; normally after so
: much time you expect half the price !!!

Why do you think this is so? Amiga Technologies DOES NOT have Commodore's
old manufacturing facilities, Amiga hasn't been manufactured for over a year
and therefore some parts weren't easily located nor will some special parts
be cheap. Thirdly Escom had to put in a lot of money to get the manufacturing
started as soon as this. No one is willing to put you first if you're not
willing to pay for it, as someone from AT stated. Amiga Technlogies has taken
again and again millions of dollars but hasn't made any profit yet. Prices are
bound to be high at first, but they'll come down.

You say normally, but do you consider this a normal situation? I'm happy
just to see Amiga is back and I think it's in good hands.

--
Janne Siren
si...@mikrobitti.fi

Bradley Leffler

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Sep 30, 1995, 3:00:00 AM9/30/95
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Roberto Giacomelli (giaco...@bo.infn.it) wrote:
: Who they think is going to buy an A1200 with 2 Mb RAM and 170 Mb HD for
: 1200000 Lire (little less than 1000 $) when is possible to buy a tower
: Pentium at 75 MHz with 8 Mb RAM and 540 Mb HD for 2300000 Lire (~1450
: $).

Come on..... 1200000 Lire = $745, 2300000 Lire =$1425 Since when is
$745 a little less than a $1000???

: And even the software given with the to computers is comparable.


: The A4000 will cost more than 6000000 Lire (~3750 $) !!!!

Actually $3715. :)

: I have an A3000, an A2000 and a CD32+SX-1 and a month ago I was thinking

: to buy one of the new Amigas they were talking about.
: Now I'm thinking to buy an MS-Dos or a Power Mac !

: Roberto

Roberto, I think - 1: You already bought that PC. :)
2: It has a Pentium in it. :)
and 3: You're using it to do your math. :)

--
Bradley Leffler - vor...@widomaker.com ---- http://www.widomaker.com/~vortex
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--- - \______/\__/_/\__/\__/_____/______/珞_____/\__/ makes it possible! -
------ ---- - - - -- - --- --- - - - --- - -- ---- ----------
----- ------ --- - Graphic Artist for Insane Software - ---- - ---- -----
Amiga since 1989 - - - ------ -- - - - --- --- -- - - 1200T 030/28/28/10

card...@janus.arc.ab.ca

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Sep 30, 1995, 3:00:00 AM9/30/95
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In article <44f6ve$c...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, beve...@aol.com (B E Verins) writes:
>That Escom doesn't know of the machine that they just bought smells like
>the ol' Commode-ore again. Sigh. WON'T THIS MACHINE GET ANY RESPECT?!?!?

If it looks like a rat, smells like a rat, and acts like a rat, it
probably IS a rat.

Escom has chosen to hire ex commodore mandarins and their lackeys.
(I have the greatest respect for the ex commodore engineers.
Thank you for my wonderful Amigas guys.)

It's the goof-balls in (mis)management positions I have difficulty with.

-May the coyote wail slightly off key
-Garry Cardinal <card...@arc.ab.ca> Electric Indian

Illya Rudkin

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Oct 1, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/1/95
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Hi

I popped into my local Escom store (Enfield London) to see the Amiga back
on sale this weekend. Not an Amiga insight nor any literature. I didn't have
time to ask, maybe next time especially since reading this thread.

Dissappointed to say the least

Illya

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=---=-=--=-=----=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
.// _
///\/// Email il...@irudkin.demon.co.uk
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Roberto Giacomelli

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Oct 1, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/1/95
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If you want to sell something now, you need competitive prices from the
start, and not after a while !!!

Roberto

Roberto Giacomelli

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Oct 1, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/1/95
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I don't have a PC, I don't have a Pentium, but I'm really angry in
seeing that all the good software is made for MS-Dos computers (even
games) !!!
Do the change of money you want, but really few people will buy at that
prices !!

Roberto

Christopher P. Edgin

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Oct 1, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/1/95
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In article <44mfjl$a...@sirio.cineca.it>,
I guess you havent heard. Escom has officially stated that the WILL NOT sell
the Amiga in their chain of stores. They cite potential difficulties in traing
their staff.

They plan to sell the Amiga primarily through mail order.


Christopher P. Edgin

"Haben sie nicht ein kuhe, mann!"
Amiga users never have a cow ;-)

Robert J Goos

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Oct 2, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/2/95
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B E Verins (beve...@aol.com) wrote:
: That Escom doesn't know of the machine that they just bought smells like

: the ol' Commode-ore again. Sigh. WON'T THIS MACHINE GET ANY RESPECT?!?!?

Respect would be great, but even that isn't necessary. I'd be happy if
the Amiga were owned by greedy capitalists who only wanted to make a pile
of money by selling machines!!!! At least then we'd have machines, not
two years of empty promises.

Manou BILLA

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Oct 2, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/2/95
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>--
>Janne Siren
>si...@mikrobitti.fi

You're right Janne! AT had to reinvent the wheel as they don't the production
facilities C= owned! On the other hand one has to keep in mind that C= did sell
their AMIGAs at the end under production price! at least for the A1200!

So they did sell a lot of A1200 but didn't make any money from it!


Bye Manou

------------------------_----------------------------------------------
Manou BILLA | _ // Connect your AMIGAs...
4, Ave. Nic Kreins| \X/ ... A1000 / A2500 / A3000 ...
L-9536 WILTZ | ------ Member Team AMIGA Luxembourg ------
| email manou...@ci.educ.lu FIDO 2:2455/160.8
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Tonio Voerman

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Oct 3, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/3/95
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In <ttavol...@amiga.ow.nl> tta...@amiga.ow.nl (Thomas Tavoly) writes:


>In article <44ej2b$3...@nntp.interaccess.com> b...@thymaster.interaccess.com (J. Poag) writes:
>
>Hmm, I feel the subject line is not appropriate, since Escom never
>officially promised to sell Amigas through Escom stores. In fact they (or
>AT) said they *wouldn't*.
>
>

>> [..] I HAVE sent E-Mail to Gilles Bourdin twice, and had no reply.
>
>He's a busy man, can't answer everyone with a gripe :)
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas Tavoly + A4000 = tta...@amiga.ow.nl | tta...@cistron.nl _
> -I'm in therapy for Chronic Windows Defenestration Syndrome.._ //
>---------------------------------------------- [.sig v3.1pl9] -\X/-
>

Hoi Thomas,

Leuk om weer eens te zien dat je nog leeft.

Groetjes

Tonio

p.s. Ik duim net als jij dat de Amiga's gauw weer te koop zullen zijn en
liefst ook nog in grote hoeveelheden.
De advertenties in Amiga Magazin van bijna 5000 DM voor de Amiga 4000 met
1 GB schijf en 8 Mb geheugen vind ik toch wel erg prijzig. Vooral omdat er
ook nog eens voor dat geldt nog geen 68060 inzit!

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tonio Voerman
email ajlm...@cs.ruu.nl


Marc Aussems

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Oct 3, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/3/95
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In article <44rgap$i...@krant.cs.ruu.nl>, ajlm...@cs.ruu.nl says...
>
>
>Hoi Thomas,
>
Well, Thomas did understand that you have to write English here!!

(oftewel engels typen)

Regards, (groeten)

Marc Aussems
m.j.l....@student.utwente.nl


Tonio Voerman

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Oct 3, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/3/95
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In <44rgap$i...@krant.cs.ruu.nl> ajlm...@cs.ruu.nl (Tonio Voerman) writes:

>In <ttavol...@amiga.ow.nl> tta...@amiga.ow.nl (Thomas Tavoly) writes:
>
>

>>In article <44ej2b$3...@nntp.interaccess.com> b...@thymaster.interaccess.com (J. Poag) writes:
>>
>>Hmm, I feel the subject line is not appropriate, since Escom never
>>officially promised to sell Amigas through Escom stores. In fact they (or
>>AT) said they *wouldn't*.
>>
>>

>>> [..] I HAVE sent E-Mail to Gilles Bourdin twice, and had no reply.
>>
>>He's a busy man, can't answer everyone with a gripe :)
>>
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Thomas Tavoly + A4000 = tta...@amiga.ow.nl | tta...@cistron.nl _
>> -I'm in therapy for Chronic Windows Defenestration Syndrome.._ //
>>---------------------------------------------- [.sig v3.1pl9] -\X/-
>>
>

>Hoi Thomas,
>
>Leuk om weer eens te zien dat je nog leeft.
>
>Groetjes
>
>Tonio
>
>p.s. Ik duim net als jij dat de Amiga's gauw weer te koop zullen zijn en
>liefst ook nog in grote hoeveelheden.
>De advertenties in Amiga Magazin van bijna 5000 DM voor de Amiga 4000 met
>1 GB schijf en 8 Mb geheugen vind ik toch wel erg prijzig. Vooral omdat er
>ook nog eens voor dat geldt nog geen 68060 inzit!
>
>
>
>--
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Tonio Voerman
>email ajlm...@cs.ruu.nl
>

Oops, sorry people, this was supposed to be email, not a followup. Must
have pushed the wrong key. I'll check my typing next time better. So
spare yourself the trouble of explaining the netiquette, it's known.

Tonio

Ray Milbrandt

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Oct 4, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/4/95
to
Hello all,

----------------------------------------------------------------------
ŻŻ On Sep 29 95 06:18 Used The Address of 3:690/660.1000@fidonet
ŻŻ And beve...@aol.com Said Something About ESCOM CAUGHT IN ANOTHER LIE
----------------------------------------------------------------------
b> From: beve...@aol.com (B E Verins)

b> That Escom doesn't know of the machine that they just bought smells like
b> the ol' Commode-ore again. Sigh. WON'T THIS MACHINE GET ANY RESPECT?!?!?
Its very sad.. that the Amiga can be one of the top selling machines
and there is no company knows or want to do the right thing for it.


Regards
Rat

Dr. Peter Kittel

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Oct 6, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/6/95
to
In article <wmiles-0210...@165.112.80.205> wmi...@pop.cc.nih.gov (Walter Miles) writes:
>In article <44ms7k$4...@grandcanyon.binc.net>, ced...@mailbag.com

>(Christopher P. Edgin) wrote:
>> I guess you havent heard. Escom has officially stated that the WILL NOT sell
>> the Amiga in their chain of stores. They cite potential difficulties in
>traing
>> their staff.
>>
>> They plan to sell the Amiga primarily through mail order.
>
> OK, I'm an idiot I guess, but I have to say it: this can't be true (about
>mail order), it's just black humor, right? If it is true, don't cite me a
>source, just shoot me now.

No need to, it's not true. In most countries, Amiga will be sold through
the traditional channels, computer shops for the bigger Amigas, warehouses
and mail order houeses for the smaller ones.

--
Best Regards, Dr. Peter Kittel //
Private Site in Frankfurt, Germany \X/ Email to: pet...@combo.ganesha.com
Employed at Amiga Technologies GmbH in Bensheim, Germany
Currently only rarely reachable via email and news, sorry.

Jack andrews

unread,
Oct 6, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/6/95
to
Roberto Giacomelli (giaco...@bo.infn.it) wrote:

: Amiga Technologies stated one month ago prices incredibly lower for new

: and more powerful Amigas; and now were are they.

: I have an A3000, an A2000 and a CD32+SX-1 and a month ago I was thinking
: to buy one of the new Amigas they were talking about.
: Now I'm thinking to buy an MS-Dos or a Power Mac !

: Roberto

This is exactly my point. Lower the prices, they are way too high.

--
Jack Andrews
am...@primenet.com

Jack andrews

unread,
Oct 6, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/6/95
to
Roberto Giacomelli (giaco...@bo.infn.it) wrote:
: If you want to sell something now, you need competitive prices from the
: start, and not after a while !!!

Hey, why bring common horse sense here?

You are correct. Lead them along with promises of lower prices.

Jack Andrews
am...@primenet.com

Jack andrews

unread,
Oct 6, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/6/95
to
: I guess you havent heard. Escom has officially stated that the WILL NOT sell
: the Amiga in their chain of stores. They cite potential difficulties in traing
: their staff.

: They plan to sell the Amiga primarily through mail order.

Why, couldn't be that they are trying to hide from "Amiga" association,
now could it?

Jack Andrews
am...@primenet.com

Brian Gragg

unread,
Oct 6, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/6/95
to
In article <45305a$c...@nnrp2.nfs.primenet.com>, am...@primenet.com (Jack andrews) writes:
|> You are just the type of customer that they love. One who pays through
|> the nose and believes the bull about the need for high prices.
|>

Prices are set for various reasons. In AT's case I'd bet it went like this.
Marketing guys put together a spreadsheet that shows price vs sales that
might look like this:

A4000T
Price Sales in 95
----- -----------
$1500 100,000
$2000 50,000
$2500 10,000
$3000 2,000

Production suppies the info on how many they can make (this is where the
difficulty of startup etc.. comes in). They say 'We can produce 10,000
A4000T's in 1995.

So they price is set at $2500.

You have to trust your marketing and production people to do their jobs,
but both are making educated guesses. Sure I could price it at $1500,
but then I'd have 90,000 very upset people sreaming that they want
their machines. It ends up doing similar damange to selling for
$2500 and having people get upset because it's too high. Difference
is AT makes better profit at $2500 ($100,000 more) which will help them
market and price reduce the product.

Future years shouldn't be so production limited so they'll use other
methods of setting price, but right now it's a seller's market on new
machines so they can charge more.

This doesn't mean I'm going to fork out for the new units. I can't afford
the prices. I just hope AT can ramp up production and bring the costs down
while there is still an Amiga market left.

Brian
bri...@sdd.hp.com


Jack andrews

unread,
Oct 6, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/6/95
to
: Future years shouldn't be so production limited so they'll use other

: methods of setting price, but right now it's a seller's market on new
: machines so they can charge more.

: This doesn't mean I'm going to fork out for the new units. I can't afford

: the prices.I just hope AT can ramp up production and bring the costs down


: while there is still an Amiga market left.

Whatever the strategy, the BOTTOM LINE IS (quoted from you)

"This doesn't mean I'm going to fork out for the new units. I can't afford
the prices."

MY SENTIMENT EXACTLY. While we are at the core issue of Amiga survival,
let's ask anyone here.

How many of you CAN afford the prices? I'll be the second response after you,
I can't afford the prices, just like you.

Jack Andrews
am...@primenet.com

Jack andrews

unread,
Oct 6, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/6/95
to
Janne Siren (si...@dns.mikrobitti.fi) wrote:

: again and again millions of dollars but hasn't made any profit yet. Prices are


: bound to be high at first, but they'll come down.

You are just the type of customer that they love. One who pays through

the nose and believes the bull about the need for high prices.

Jack Andrews
am...@primenet.com

John Richter

unread,
Oct 6, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/6/95
to pet...@combo.ganesha.com
>No need to, it's not true. In most countries, Amiga will be sold through
>the traditional channels, computer shops for the bigger Amigas, warehouses
>and mail order houeses for the smaller ones.
>
>--
>Best Regards, Dr. Peter Kittel //

Welcome Dr. Kittel!

It sure is nice to have you visit us once in a while to clear all the smoke
flowing around this area lately. Thanks for the clarification and don't hesitate to
visit again, we appresiate your time and effort in responding to some of this
non-sense! :)

Roberto Giacomelli

unread,
Oct 7, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/7/95
to sjko...@freenet.columbus.oh.us
Mac is so popular for behind them there is Apple (and not the last
Commodore) and now you can buy a PowerPC 6100/66 + 486 DX2-66 card, 700
Mb HD, 16 Mb RAM and a 17" monitor for 5500000 Lit. !!!

Roberto

Kim Pugh

unread,
Oct 8, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/8/95
to
Marc Aussems (m.j.l....@student.utwente.nl) wrote:
=>In article <44rgap$i...@krant.cs.ruu.nl>, ajlm...@cs.ruu.nl says...
=>>
=>>
=>>Hoi Thomas,
=>>
=>Well, Thomas did understand that you have to write English here!!

=>(oftewel engels typen)

=>Regards, (groeten)

=>Marc Aussems
=>m.j.l....@student.utwente.nl

Well, I suppose you don't HAVE to use English. It's just a more common
coin these days.


--
Kim Pugh | DISCLAIMER: Opinions expressed are *strictly*
-----------------+ those of the last person I talked to.
k...@telepath.com | *Telepath.com info: 405-755-1990. Login as guest*
http://www.telepath.com/kim/ | ftp://ftp.telepath.com/people/kim

Roberto Giacomelli

unread,
Oct 9, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/9/95
to
I have bought a Cybervision 64, but now for me is stupid to spend so
much for a Cyberstorm 060 now.
If the amiga won't sell with low prices, we will get a dead computer,
and after that there won't be software houses working on amiga
platforms.

The software of the Mac is high, I know it, but they do offers to
students (Amiga have never done those things, really stupid) and I can
find a whole bunch of CDs at affordable prices.
The prices of CDs for the Amiga are lower but ther are so few things ...

Roberto

Tom Smith

unread,
Oct 9, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/9/95
to

: Whatever the strategy, the BOTTOM LINE IS (quoted from you)

: "This doesn't mean I'm going to fork out for the new units. I can't afford
: the prices."

: MY SENTIMENT EXACTLY. While we are at the core issue of Amiga survival,
: let's ask anyone here.

: How many of you CAN afford the prices? I'll be the second response after you,
: I can't afford the prices, just like you.

I can afford $2,500 for a computer, but I won't pay it. I have an A3000 which
performs nicely (with upgrades). Also, I'd like to see what the A5000 will look
like. And if it never comes, then oh well; The Amiga wouldn't be supported
anyway.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| ----- | ------- | Living on Earth is expensive, but you get |
| / __ | Intel Outside | an anual free trip around the Sun. |
| / /_/ /|/| | ------- | |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| tes...@phoenix.net http://www.phoenix.net/~tesmith/default.html |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dave Haynie

unread,
Oct 9, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/9/95
to
In <453gae$j...@acme.freenet.columbus.oh.us>, sjko...@freenet.columbus.oh.us (Scott Konowal) writes:
> Who is the Amiga in compitition with? IBM? Apple?

Yes.

>Why is it that Apple can sell Macs for alot more than comparative
>PC's and still be on the market.

They can't. Sure, they once did. They had a significant advantage, the
Mac OS. And for awhile, they operated on very high margins, relative
to similar PCs. But those times have been over with for quite
awhile. Sure, Apple cost more than a basic PClone you piece together
from commodity parts at a computer faire. But they're competative with
PCs from any similarly sized company: Compaq, IBM, etc. You can even
give the edge to the Mac in some cases: a 120MHz PPC604 processor is
significantly faster than a 120-133MHz Pentium.

>If the GIANT PC's have such a foothold in the industry, then why
>are Mac's still so popular?

Apple has been losing market share for some time. From a peak of
somewhere around 12%, they're now at about 8.5-9% (based on various
industry sources). Apple's done as well as it has for one reason: good
marketing. That's the same good marketing that gave you $1500 Apple
IIs that weren't significantly faster, better, or more capable than
$250.00 C64 systems.

>: Hey, why bring common horse sense here?

Marketing preys on emotions, it's relatively independent of good
sense. If good sense were the dominating factor in most personal
computer selections, the Amiga would have been very strong from its
introduction.

Dave Haynie | ex-Commodore Engineering | for DiskSalv 3 &
Sr. Systems Engineer | Hardwired Media Company | "The Deathbed Vigil"
Scala Inc., US R&D | Ki No Kawa Aikido | in...@iam.com

"I don't owe you anything!" -Foo Fighters


Evert de Vos

unread,
Oct 11, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/11/95
to

-- snip --

: : You should remember, that they had to start the production over, not just to
: : continue. I think, that's the main reason for the high prices. But as you
: : said, the first 20000 Amiga 4000s are sold to companies and rich people, and
: : after that (probably in the beginning of the next year), they will lower the
: : price.
:
: : I don't think the prices are so high just because they decided to earn lots
: : of money. This is a very primitive way of thinking for the bosses of a
: : company.
:
: Exactly; if ESCOM/AT decided to bleed the people who need Amigas dry, then
: they would be shooting themselves in the foot. After all, these people
: who buy Amigas now, are more then likely going to stay with AT and support
: them - but if AT rip 'em off now then these people will just stuff their
: computer into a box, and re sell it. Bad marketing idea. So thats why these
: "high" prices are not really AT's fault..
:
: : Greetings, Andy.

Oh no, wake up people, are there still companies that rely on amiga's
after the last year? I don't think so, but correct me if I'm wrong. I
do have the money to buy a new amiga, but I won't do that!! Why not?
Well just as you, I'll wait till the prices lower, till then, I can
still go on with the A2000 and A3000 I have. And if everyone thinks
like that the prices never lower, so AT have to lower them first so
nobody has to wait, and everyone who wants a new amiga can buy it
without being afraid for paying too much.

Evert


Philip Chung

unread,
Oct 11, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/11/95
to mal...@lila.informatik.uni-bonn.de
mal...@lila.informatik.uni-bonn.de (Andreas Malerz) wrote:
>You should remember, that they had to start the production over, not just to
>continue. I think, that's the main reason for the high prices. But as you
>said, the first 20000 Amiga 4000s are sold to companies and rich people, and
>after that (probably in the beginning of the next year), they will lower the
>price.

I agree with you, however, I think that the rumoured 030 based A1200 should not
cost anymore than the stock A1200 now and should have more RAM. A hard disk
version (should AT decide to continue with the FD only option) should not cost
100UKP more than the floppy only version.
--
__
__/\_\__ E-Mail: ee9...@brunel.ac.uk
/\_\/_/\_\ Brunel University
\/_/\_\/_/ Uxbridge
\/_/ UK


Peter Lankenau

unread,
Oct 11, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/11/95
to
jam...@morinda.it.ntu.edu.au (James McArthur) benutze seine Tastatur am 09.10.1995 um 06:28:46 Uhr, um
folgenden Text unter dem Betreff "Re: ** ESCOM CAUGHT IN ANOTHER LIE **" zu erzeugen:
> G'Day Nicolai Thilo, in comp.sys.amiga.emulations you wrote:

> : In article <4542v3$o...@nnrp2.nfs.primenet.com>, Jack andrews (am...@primenet.com) wrote:
>
> : >How many of you CAN afford the prices?
>
> : I bet many of us could, if we really really wanted to. After all,
> : Amiga hardware has always been quite expensive. But I already have 4
> : Amigas, so I'm in no hurry to buy a new one. I'll wait and see what
> : they want to do in the future.
>
> I'll probably go out and get another 4000 system early next year if it
> means that I'm supporting AT
>
> : >I'll be the second response after you,

> : >I can't afford the prices, just like you.
>
> : Companies which depend on Amigas will be buying the first bundles of
> : A4000Ts. And the powerusers/fanatics with a good income... ;-)
> : Result: AT will make more money on those who can afford it and then
> : (hopefully) lower the prices later when the demand isn't so high.
>
> More then likely this will be the case. But some people dont see it this
> way.
>
> : --- __
> : /\/./. "I'M A NAUGHTY FELLOW!!!" -The Sexecutioner, GWAR.


Was soll das, ueber Preise labern. Der Amiga war schon immer etwas teurer.
Aber auch preisstabil, siehe gebrauchtmarkt. -> kann man von Dosen nun
nicht gerade behaupten.

Dazu kommt, eine gute Maschine ist ihr Geld wert ;-)

Wer schon zwei oder mehr Rechner hat, wozu noch einer? - nur weil anderes
Logo?


Peter
heute neu ist morgen alt & von gestern

Dan Green

unread,
Oct 12, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/12/95
to
In article <45h309$j...@izar.brunel.ac.uk>, Philip Chung <ee9...@brunel.ac.uk> writes:
> I agree with you, however, I think that the rumoured 030 based A1200 should not
> cost anymore than the stock A1200 now and should have more RAM. A hard disk
> version (should AT decide to continue with the FD only option) should not cost
> 100UKP more than the floppy only version.

Why not include a 030, FPU socket and SIMM's on the board. That would be
simple (hell, I could probably do it myself) and it would increase performance
and free up the expansion port.


______________________________________________________
o o /// Dan Green -------- E-MAIL:etx...@tn.ericsson.se \\\
O /// Software Designer ---"Happy AMIGA user since 1987" \\\
`---' /// Ericsson Telecom AB ------------ Voice: +46 8 351278 \\\
\\\ /// ------ THIS IS MY OWN OPINION, NOT ERICSSON'S -------- \\\ ///
\\\/// Windows Error #56: Operator fell asleep while waiting \\\///
\XX/____________________________________________________________\XX/

Daniel Howard

unread,
Oct 12, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/12/95
to etx...@tn.ericsson.se
etx...@tn.ericsson.se (Dan Green) wrote:
>In article <45h309$j...@izar.brunel.ac.uk>, Philip Chung <ee9...@brunel.ac.uk> writes:
>> I agree with you, however, I think that the rumoured 030 based A1200 should not
>> cost anymore than the stock A1200 now and should have more RAM.
>
>Why not include a 030, FPU socket and SIMM's on the board. That would be
>simple (hell, I could probably do it myself) and it would increase performance
>and free up the expansion port.

The machine is not a rumor, it is currently "vaporware" but is planned to be
reality early next year, Marchish ... it will have all these features as well
as some provision for easily adding CD-ROM/MPEG :)

--
=====///====================================================================
====///=======This message brought to you by dann...@uiuc.edu==============
\\\///=========HOME PAGE! http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward ==============
=\XX/A1200==================================================================
"Our ship is broken. Can you make it go?"


Paul van der Heu

unread,
Oct 12, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/12/95
to
Evert de Vos (ev...@sh.bel.alcatel.be) wrote:

: Oh no, wake up people, are there still companies that rely on amiga's


: after the last year? I don't think so, but correct me if I'm wrong.

OK, let me correct you.. I know of a great many companies who rely on
amiga systems. I know of at least three video production companies who
just finished a movie with amigas in charge of special effects and 3D
CGI scenes.

I know if numerous institutions and companies using amiga systems in
information system setups. There are more Amiga based systems in kiosks
then you would like to know.. check your local cable news service, chances
are they run Amiga systems, BIG hotel chains like Hilton use Amiga systems
exclusively for in-house communication and cable infosystems.

: I do have the money to buy a new amiga, but I won't do that!! Why not?


: Well just as you, I'll wait till the prices lower, till then, I can
: still go on with the A2000 and A3000 I have.

That is just fine, companies who make money using the Amiga will be more
then happy to buy the first amigas availble, they will get their investment
back within 6-8 months anyway.

--

Paul 'Starchild' van der Heu, The MotherShip Connection
pv...@motship.xs4all.nl

OK, I admit MAC OS 7.5.1 isn't that bad..
Especially since it runs on my Amiga 3000

Branko Collin

unread,
Oct 12, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/12/95
to
In article <45j93j$q...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
Daniel Howard <dann...@uiuc.edu> writes:


>
>Pet_La...@WILAM.north.de (Peter Lankenau) wrote:
>>Was soll das, ueber Preise labern. Der Amiga war schon immer etwas teurer.
>>Aber auch preisstabil, siehe gebrauchtmarkt. -> kann man von Dosen nun
>>nicht gerade behaupten.
>>
>>Dazu kommt, eine gute Maschine ist ihr Geld wert ;-)
>>
>>Wer schon zwei oder mehr Rechner hat, wozu noch einer? - nur weil anderes
>>Logo?
>>
>
> Damn right! So far this is the first post on this thread that I've seen that I
>agree with, but only because I don't have any idea what it says! Hopefully
>nobody else will either and the thread will die, thanks to Peter! Yay!

Those of us who have actually had an education know what it says.
So there!

Seriously, though, what is your problem? Feeling a little xenophobe
today?

................................... Lots of people talking ....
. Branko Collin . Very few of them know .
. . That the soul of a woman .
. // u24...@vm.uci.kun.nl . Was created below .
. \X/ bco...@mpi.nl . .
................................. Led Zeppelin - Dazed and Confused ..

Daniel Howard

unread,
Oct 12, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/12/95
to
Pet_La...@WILAM.north.de (Peter Lankenau) wrote:
>Was soll das, ueber Preise labern. Der Amiga war schon immer etwas teurer.
>Aber auch preisstabil, siehe gebrauchtmarkt. -> kann man von Dosen nun
>nicht gerade behaupten.
>
>Dazu kommt, eine gute Maschine ist ihr Geld wert ;-)
>
>Wer schon zwei oder mehr Rechner hat, wozu noch einer? - nur weil anderes
>Logo?
>

Damn right! So far this is the first post on this thread that I've seen that I
agree with, but only because I don't have any idea what it says! Hopefully
nobody else will either and the thread will die, thanks to Peter! Yay!

--

Chris Hall

unread,
Oct 13, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/13/95
to
Dan Green (etx...@tn.ericsson.se) wrote:

: In article <45h309$j...@izar.brunel.ac.uk>, Philip Chung <ee9...@brunel.ac.uk> writes:
: > I agree with you, however, I think that the rumoured 030 based A1200 should not

: > cost anymore than the stock A1200 now and should have more RAM. A hard disk


: > version (should AT decide to continue with the FD only option) should not cost
: > 100UKP more than the floppy only version.

: Why not include a 030, FPU socket and SIMM's on the board. That would be

: simple (hell, I could probably do it myself) and it would increase performance
: and free up the expansion port.

I think they were stupid for not making some minor changes such as that
in the system before they tooled up to produce the machines. I bet they
could have contracted out to some of the ex-Commodore engineers to do
some minor changes before they went into production. I think that much
of the Amiga community would have been reassured to hear that some
changes were being made by some of the ex-C= engineers before production
started. I'm sure that most changes would have only takes a couple of
weeks to finish.

Back in June, I suggested to Dr Kittel that they should make some minor
changes like what you mentioned above and also the addition of a SCSI
interface to the system at the expense of the built in RF modulator and
possibly replacing the external floppy connector with a 25pin SCSI
connector but they could have used the knock out panel for it. Either
they just desided to ignore that people wanted some minor changes or they
used old molds and whatever to build the machines.

If they didn't want to put a SCSI 2 controller on it, they could have
gone with the same SCSI hardware and software that's in the 3000. I
bet it wouldn't have taken a few hours for someone to make the changes
on the board designs in some board designing software. They would have
made some money off of existing A1200 owners that wanted to get a new
motherboard.

Chris Hall


Daniel Howard

unread,
Oct 13, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/13/95
to ch...@clover.cleaf.com
ch...@clover.cleaf.com (Chris Hall) wrote:
>I think they were stupid for not making some minor changes such as that
>in the system before they tooled up to produce the machines. I bet they
>could have contracted out to some of the ex-Commodore engineers to do
>some minor changes before they went into production. I think that much
>of the Amiga community would have been reassured to hear that some
>changes were being made by some of the ex-C= engineers before production
>started. I'm sure that most changes would have only takes a couple of
>weeks to finish.

I bet they're tired of nits like you who haven't studied the problem
criticising them. They took a week or two to make their decisions. It was
concluded that if machines were to be enhanced before first run, production
would be put back some months, machines might not have appeared until after
Christmas. Rather, current designs will be sold while the new ones are
redesigned, tested, perfected and likely subjected to the market demands (juicy
processor vs extra SIMM vs cost vs CD-ROM, etc) ... one can't just hange the
design of a complex equipment on a whim, unless you *like* poor quality
control. Besides, there are already 120,000 that have said they'd rather have
old designs now rather than new designs later. That's $120,000 people with pens
already to their checkbooks ...

Chris Hall

unread,
Oct 14, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/14/95
to
Daniel Howard (dann...@uiuc.edu) wrote:

: I bet they're tired of nits like you who haven't studied the problem
: criticising them.

I admit I'm a nitpicker but if it wasn't for us folks that bring
attention to problems and oversites, a lot of them would go unnoticed. I
bet you've done some nitpicking yourself.


: They took a week or two to make their decisions. It was


: concluded that if machines were to be enhanced before first run, production
: would be put back some months, machines might not have appeared until after
: Christmas. Rather, current designs will be sold while the new ones are
: redesigned, tested, perfected and likely subjected to the market demands (juicy
: processor vs extra SIMM vs cost vs CD-ROM, etc) ... one can't just hange the
: design of a complex equipment on a whim, unless you *like* poor quality
: control. Besides, there are already 120,000 that have said they'd rather have
: old designs now rather than new designs later. That's $120,000 people with pens

: already to their checkbooks ... ^^^^^^^^

$120,000 people? :)

Some changes are much easier than others. For instance, adding a
math coprocessor socket would require no changes, pads exist for it already.
Adding a SCSI controller would have been a bit harder but it probably
wouldn't have forced the delay of the design that long. Any ex-C=
engineers want to comment on how long it would take to path a SCSI
controller into the 1200 motherboard designs? Instead of rebuilding the
kickstart image for the 1200, they could have just put the SCSI.device
on disk as 2nd.scsi.device until they did a kickstart update.

Adding a 68030 and SIMM socket would have probably been to difficult to
add in a short time. Adding a SIMM socket would have probably forced a
design change on the case.

Chris Hall


MARC EDWARD FORRESTER

unread,
Oct 15, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/15/95
to
James Cooper <ja...@cdevil.unx.sas.com> wrote:
>There's also the fact that this is an English language group.
>The original poster (and all who replied) should have either posted
>in English, or posted in one of the '.de' groups instead.

Accepted that if there are comp.sys.amiga.*.de, that would probably
be the best place to post in deutsch, but does it really make this
an 'English language' group? And if it is, why isn't called
comp.sys.amiga.*.eng? (Or similar)

Besides which, it occurs that .de groups are probably only distributed
within the realms of .de, and maybe a couple of old colonies of such.
What if you want global distribution, but only speak german?

Angus Manwaring

unread,
Oct 15, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/15/95
to
MARC EDWARD FORRESTER (me...@aber.ac.uk) wrote:

: Besides which, it occurs that .de groups are probably only distributed


: within the realms of .de, and maybe a couple of old colonies of such.
: What if you want global distribution, but only speak german?


Well, last time they tried by invading Poland.
--
Regards,
Angus.
There's a Thargoid ship out there somewhere, and I want it!
an...@angusm.demon.co.uk

MARC EDWARD FORRESTER

unread,
Oct 16, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/16/95
to
Michael van Elst <mle...@serpens.rhein.de> wrote:
>>Besides which, it occurs that .de groups are probably only distributed
>>within the realms of .de, and maybe a couple of old colonies of such.
>
>"old colonies" is a good one :) No, de.* is distributed globally
>although not everyone is actually receiving.

Well, yes, that's more what I meant. Surely not many english speaking
nodes bother to upload the de. newsgroups?


Angus Manwaring

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Oct 16, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/16/95
to
Janne Siren (si...@dns.mikrobitti.fi) wrote:
: Angus Manwaring (an...@angusm.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: : Well, last time they tried by invading Poland.

: Not a very good joke... I know there are a lot of people to whom this is a
: touchy subject.

I agree, not a very good joke, but far worse to pretend it didn't happen.

Regards,
Angus.

Windows.....fragile, potentially dangerous and quite transparent.

Mike Merriman

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Oct 17, 1995, 3:00:00 AM10/17/95