** ESCOM CAUGHT IN ANOTHER LIE **
J. Poag
gotten had it not been brought to everyones attention:
Dig the following:
From: od...@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Andrew George Elia)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Fight for them Amigas!
Date: 28 Sep 1995 10:34:47 GMT
Hi guys!
It`s about time we started to give Escom (not necesarrily AT) a
good kicking.
I have been working in one of the Escom stores for the past four
months with the hope that I would be participating in some way towards
the re-introduction of the Amiga. If nothing else, I might be able to do
something from the inside or even get a staff discount. It seems that I
assumed that Escom UK would be just as willing to welcome back the Amiga
as the German parent company. Big mistake.
When I first applied for the job, I was asked to sit a test which
contained things about memory access times, and IRQ values. When I got
the job I would have had to go to a training session led by reps from
Intel, and IBM. I didn`t (couldn`t) go.
The bottom line is that I have contacted every single department
in our head office, and they don`t know a thing! In fact, some of them
tried to tell me that Escom bought the name and ditched the rest.
The reason that I am inflicting this on you all is that Amiga
Shopper and Amiga Format (November issues in each case) state that Amiga
Technologies have told them that Escom stores WILL be selling Amigas. I
contacted a certain person in AT, and he informed me that this would not
be the case because negotiations with Escom had failed. You may or may
not know that both Intel and IBM have pumped a hell of a lot of money
into the new Escom stores. I have a feeling that they have objected to
having Amigas in the stores (primarily because it proves that Intel
processors are kludged 70s crap, and IBM have blatantly tried (and
failed) to copy AmigaDOS/Workbench).
Worringly, AT told Amiga Shopper that the staff in Escom stores
know the Amiga product well and are ideally suited to selling them. This
is blatantly untrue. Not only do 70% of Escom staff consist of former
Rumbelows staff (ie. gormless box shifters), but those that I have spoken
to seem to be quite antagonistic towards Amigas. As for knowing anything
about them from either a software or hardware point of view, you have to
see their ignorance to believe it. They REALLY don`t know what they are
selling. This seems to apply to the 30% of new staff who are wholly PC
nerds. The branches I have talked to confirm that they get tonnes of
Amiga enquiries. I have found out from the Amiga Format letters page from
October (I think) that some shops have been denying that they had
anything to do with Amigas all along. In fact my own collegues drop
customers like hot potatoes the moment they find out they have Amigas.
Fortunately, if a customer hasn`t already left the shop (some do so
without bothering to ask -unsurprising considering the response they
others give) I put the record straight.
Basically, I think it`s suicide for Escom stores not to deal in
Amigas, their software and hardware. Although Escom and AT want
themselves to be considered separate entities, the link has already been
established. If the public can`t SEE Amigas, they will find it more
difficult to make a decision about buying one. For goodness sake, if you
are near an Escom store, don`t be afraid to go in and ASK about them. If
they give you the wrong answer, put them straight. Don`t let them give
you any rubbish about what they think is happening. They simply don`t know.
I have to confess that I hold a relatively menial position at
Escom (higher only than the window clear and the guy that collects the
rubbish bins). As such I am trying to get some management staff to back
me up. I`ve already compilied a survey which I`m planning on faxing over
to every store in London (and elsewhere if necessary) to try an
accumulate some evidence of demand for Amigas in Escom stores. I just
have to wait for managerial approval.
By the way. If it is true that AT are ditching the AAA chipset,
they should get their heads examined. Another thing: AmigaDOS is for the
Amiga, so why the hell do they want to develop it for machines with a
more limited architecture ? Here`s an idea: why not develop AmigaDOS for
the Amiga ? Smart people.
I challenge anyone from either Escom or Amiga Technologies to prove what I`ve said is
wrong. I hope I am. I HAVE sent E-Mail to Gilles Bourdin twice, and had no reply.
Andrew Elia
(Escom UK)
PS. Someone please shoot Mojo from Foundation Imaging and put him out of
his misery. He has been brainwashed by Intel. Read November`s Amiga
Shopper and you`ll know what I mean.
--
Tick-tock-tick-tock-tick-tock-tick-tock*click*.
+-+----------------------------------------------------------------p-+-q
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+-+----------------------------------------------------------------b-+-d
| |
| Im a whiz-kid of the Superinformation Highway! I wash ALL my clothes |
| with BOLD Laundry Detergent, I spend ALL my time in coffee-shops AND |
| I drive a Subaru Impreza--Because it's just like punk-rock!" |
| |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------pq
+=====================================================================bd
Bowie J. Poag (b...@interaccess.com) 50 Mhz A2500HD/030/882,AmiTCP/IP 4.2
(I drive an '85 Dodge Omni, hate coffee, and listen to Devo. Bite me.)
Thomas Tavoly
In article <44ej2b$3...@nntp.interaccess.com> b...@thymaster.interaccess.com (J. Poag) writes:
Hmm, I feel the subject line is not appropriate, since Escom never
officially promised to sell Amigas through Escom stores. In fact they (or
AT) said they *wouldn't*.
Apart from that, I went to one local Escom store (here in the Netherlands)
and asked about the Amiga. The salesman I talked to told me that they had
an internal 'press release' from management telling them they would start
selling Amigas in September. That was about two weeks ago. I haven't looked
yet, but beginning of October I'm going to have a look whether it's true.
(The wild rumour of every Escom store already having A4000T's behind their
counters is obviously untrue).
I then asked about what models they would be selling, he said he didn't
know, but probably the 1200 and the 400 (yes he said 400, not 4000. I
corrected him :) I also asked whether he or any other representative in the
store had experience with Amigas, whether they have had any training, or
would be getting any on the subject of Amigas, to which he replied with no,
no and don't know. I asked why they didn't know or aren't going to know
anything about the Amiga to which he replied that he is not a technician,
he only sells the stuff.
So my conclusions are: his reactions were pretty normal (he was actually
quite friendly and informative as it goes), these people don't know much
about Amigas and computers in general, they are salesmen and are usually
hired on the base of some little knowledge (like being able to install
software and knowing something about upgrading) and I guess a
'representable' looks/consumer friendliness. Nothing new there.
Apart from that, the fact that he heard something about the Amiga from
management tells me they *are* going to sell them. How soon and in what way
(probably not a prominent corner) remains to be seen. Judging from the way
the shop window was plastered with Win95 logo's I'd say they are heavily MS
influenced and regard the Amiga not as something with a high priority.
The haze surrounding AT, Escom and their relationship can also be
explained by a purposeful radiosilence before the attack. Be sure that
somewhere there are people all over the industry watching what's happening
to the Amiga. It's a cutthroat business and a new (hah) competitor with
such potential is not to be discounted.
AT is doing their best and should be left alone for the moment, they
haven't screwed up big time yet, it's only been a couple of months since
the auction. Although, as always, things could be done better, within the
frame of what's possible regarding manpower and financial backing from the
parent company, I think they haven't done that badly up to now. So, hold your
breath :) (and your flames) I think (hope) that there is significantly more
happening behind the screens than we hear about. Ideally they have by now
decided what RISC platform AmigaDOS 4.x is going to be developed for and
are secretly hiring engineers as not to alert the competition. The pessimist
in me says they are waiting for the Christmas season's results and decide
whether to ditch the Amiga or commit themselves to it *after* that. Or rather,
Escom are waiting for AT's results and decide whether they are going to
give them financial backing or not.
> [..] Another thing: AmigaDOS is for the
> Amiga, so why the hell do they want to develop it for machines with a
> more limited architecture ? Here`s an idea: why not develop AmigaDOS for
> the Amiga ? Smart people.
Actually, *AmigaDOS* is the Amiga, not the hardware. It would not be a bad
thing to finally abandon the custom chip architecture and move towards
industry standard (i.e. cheap) parts. AAA doesn't cut it anymore. Proprietary,
expensive and already outdated. I couldn't care less on what platform AmigaDOS
runs as long as it stays _AmigaDOS_ (and there's a reasonably fast 680x0
emulation available for old software that hasn't been ported yet). PPC & PCI
would be best IMHO.
> [..] I HAVE sent E-Mail to Gilles Bourdin twice, and had no reply.
He's a busy man, can't answer everyone with a gripe :)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas Tavoly + A4000 = tta...@amiga.ow.nl | tta...@cistron.nl _
-I'm in therapy for Chronic Windows Defenestration Syndrome.._ //
---------------------------------------------- [.sig v3.1pl9] -\X/-
Jill E. Howe
Good luck on your fax survey. It's a good idea and you have a lot of
initiative. Hopefully Escom-AT will see that and hire you @ AT.
Your situation Re: Escom storefront lackies who are know-nothings pushing
the IBM/Intel party line.... I know it well. In the US back in the late
80's, Sears (a major retail chain) had Amigas in their catalog, and were
just about to start putting Amigas on the shelves. Demand was good
enough to warrant it.
However, Sears had just been signed up with IBM as a "business partner".
And they were quietly working on Prodigy which is jointly owned by Sears
and IBM. Anyway, Sears pushes Prodigy bigtime, as you know.
IBM got Sears to drop the Amiga, knowing that a cheap A500 sitting next
to a high clocked 386, would make the 386 look real real bad. And IBM
had no interest in providing a Prodigy package for an Amiga (the Mac was
given one only because it's not a major threat to the clone world, and to
shore up poor initial signups for Prodigy [More Macs than Amigas]).
Better to only sell machines that you can make another profit on by
getting the customer to connect to Prodigy.
So you have a manufacturer (IBM) and a retailer (Sears) conspiring to
eliminate the competition platform (Amiga) from IBM's business partner's
(Sears) stores, in part because IBM and Sears now work together
on their joint venture (Prodigy). The Justice Department didn't do squat
to stop it. Maybe they didn't know?
I haven't bought ANYTHING from Sears since, and I let them know why.
This Xmas season all Amigans should stop by their local Sears, and tell
the Manager you'll not be shopping their anymore, and tell them why. And
tell them you'll be a customer again when they support the new Escom Amigas.
In reality I still wouldn't buy from Sears. IBM and Intel have horrible
environmental records (social and ethical problems also), so I won't
patronize their business partners (Sears).
BTW, if you guys like to frig up the competition at Sears, Montgomery
Wards, etc., those machines all have password protection running on them
now. Windoze, Mac, you name it. Here's a TIP: At most stores, the
password is the STORE NUMBER! Then feel free to reformat the HD :-),
or turn the wallpaper backdrop into an Amiga advertisement. Store #'s
are often on receipts, or you can ask for it via phone. DON'T WALK INTO
THE COMPUTER DEPARTMENT AND ASK FOR THE STORE #....that'd be too
obvious. Go into the bed or shoe department THEN ASK.
-Jill
The streets will flow with the blood of the segmented architectures.
Brian Skreeg
<some stuff>
Can we please stop crossposting to ALL amiga groups.
Misc or Advocacy will do for this sort of thing.
__ _ _
/ \ \ \
/ / / / / |-Brian Skreeg-----------Maniac-|
\__/ \ \ |-Lead guitarist extraordinaire-|
\__/_/ |-I don't look like two zombies-|
Patrick McKinnion
<Pine.ULT.3.91.950929...@pool.info.sunyit.edu>, "Jill E.
Howe" <oj...@sunyit.edu> wrote:
> BTW, if you guys like to frig up the competition at Sears, Montgomery
> Wards, etc., those machines all have password protection running on them
> now. Windoze, Mac, you name it. Here's a TIP: At most stores, the
> password is the STORE NUMBER! Then feel free to reformat the HD :-),
> or turn the wallpaper backdrop into an Amiga advertisement. Store #'s
> are often on receipts, or you can ask for it via phone. DON'T WALK INTO
> THE COMPUTER DEPARTMENT AND ASK FOR THE STORE #....that'd be too
> obvious. Go into the bed or shoe department THEN ASK.
And the above is a actually brillant way to insure that a) Sears will
not want to, or like to, carry the Escom Amiga, and b) insure that their
sales people will absolutely hate selling Amigas. If you want to piss
off the people that you're trying to get into selling the Amiga, by all
means do it.
The bozos in Sears computer dept. tend to push Packard Bells anyway -
PB gives them major bonuses for every unit sold, hence the reason they
shortchange the Mac, Compaq, and every other brand they sell.
- Patrick McKinnion
(Performa 630CD & A4000/040 owner and user)
--
-Brought to you by "Ouchies", the sharp, prickly toy you bathe with...
-------------------------
(The Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this post in any form, in whole or in part. Copyright, Patrick McKinnion, 1995. License to distribute this post is available to The Microsoft Network for US$1000. Posting without permission constitutes an agreement to these terms. Please report violations to postm...@msn.com)
Roberto Giacomelli
They are crazy, is the first time that I see that an old compute like
the A1200 and the A4000 costs more than one year ago; normally after so
much time you expect half the price !!!
Who they think is going to buy an A1200 with 2 Mb RAM and 170 Mb HD for
1200000 Lire (little less than 1000 $) when is possible to buy a tower
Pentium at 75 MHz with 8 Mb RAM and 540 Mb HD for 2300000 Lire (~1450
$).
And even the software given with the to computers is comparable.
The A4000 will cost more than 6000000 Lire (~3750 $) !!!!
Noone will buy such computers at that prices and and we will loose all
those wonderful programmers for Amiga.
Amiga Technologies stated one month ago prices incredibly lower for new
and more powerful Amigas; and now were are they.
I have an A3000, an A2000 and a CD32+SX-1 and a month ago I was thinking
to buy one of the new Amigas they were talking about.
Now I'm thinking to buy an MS-Dos or a Power Mac !
Roberto
Janne Siren
: I've read yesterday the prices of th "new" amigas in Italy.
: They are crazy, is the first time that I see that an old compute like
: the A1200 and the A4000 costs more than one year ago; normally after so
: much time you expect half the price !!!
Why do you think this is so? Amiga Technologies DOES NOT have Commodore's
old manufacturing facilities, Amiga hasn't been manufactured for over a year
and therefore some parts weren't easily located nor will some special parts
be cheap. Thirdly Escom had to put in a lot of money to get the manufacturing
started as soon as this. No one is willing to put you first if you're not
willing to pay for it, as someone from AT stated. Amiga Technlogies has taken
again and again millions of dollars but hasn't made any profit yet. Prices are
bound to be high at first, but they'll come down.
You say normally, but do you consider this a normal situation? I'm happy
just to see Amiga is back and I think it's in good hands.
--
Janne Siren
si...@mikrobitti.fi
Bradley Leffler
: Who they think is going to buy an A1200 with 2 Mb RAM and 170 Mb HD for
: Pentium at 75 MHz with 8 Mb RAM and 540 Mb HD for 2300000 Lire (~1450
: $).
Come on..... 1200000 Lire = $745, 2300000 Lire =$1425 Since when is
$745 a little less than a $1000???
: And even the software given with the to computers is comparable.
: The A4000 will cost more than 6000000 Lire (~3750 $) !!!!
Actually $3715. :)
: I have an A3000, an A2000 and a CD32+SX-1 and a month ago I was thinking
: to buy one of the new Amigas they were talking about.
: Now I'm thinking to buy an MS-Dos or a Power Mac !
: Roberto
Roberto, I think - 1: You already bought that PC. :)
2: It has a Pentium in it. :)
and 3: You're using it to do your math. :)
--
Bradley Leffler - vor...@widomaker.com ---- http://www.widomaker.com/~vortex
------- ------- ----- - - ______ - - ----- -- ----------------------
- - Only - - --- - - \____/ - - - - --- -- ---- - ------------
--- - - /秤秤秤秤\/秤珮/秤珮/秤秤\/秤秤秤\ /秤秤秤秤\ - - --------------
-- - / 秤秤\ \ \ \ /秤秤秤/ 秤秤\ \ - - ---- --------
--- - \______/\__/_/\__/\__/_____/______/珞_____/\__/ makes it possible! -
------ ---- - - - -- - --- --- - - - --- - -- ---- ----------
----- ------ --- - Graphic Artist for Insane Software - ---- - ---- -----
Amiga since 1989 - - - ------ -- - - - --- --- -- - - 1200T 030/28/28/10
card...@janus.arc.ab.ca
>That Escom doesn't know of the machine that they just bought smells like
>the ol' Commode-ore again. Sigh. WON'T THIS MACHINE GET ANY RESPECT?!?!?
If it looks like a rat, smells like a rat, and acts like a rat, it
probably IS a rat.
Escom has chosen to hire ex commodore mandarins and their lackeys.
(I have the greatest respect for the ex commodore engineers.
Thank you for my wonderful Amigas guys.)
It's the goof-balls in (mis)management positions I have difficulty with.
-May the coyote wail slightly off key
-Garry Cardinal <card...@arc.ab.ca> Electric Indian
Illya Rudkin
I popped into my local Escom store (Enfield London) to see the Amiga back
on sale this weekend. Not an Amiga insight nor any literature. I didn't have
time to ask, maybe next time especially since reading this thread.
Dissappointed to say the least
Illya
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=---=-=--=-=----=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
.// _
///\/// Email il...@irudkin.demon.co.uk
/ ~'
System: Amiga 4000/040 + 14Mb + 650Mb HD
Bsc Mitsumi 2x CDROM CacheCDFS CD32 Emulator
Teletext decoder
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-thiu
Roberto Giacomelli
start, and not after a while !!!
Roberto
Roberto Giacomelli
seeing that all the good software is made for MS-Dos computers (even
games) !!!
Do the change of money you want, but really few people will buy at that
prices !!
Roberto
Christopher P. Edgin
the Amiga in their chain of stores. They cite potential difficulties in traing
their staff.
They plan to sell the Amiga primarily through mail order.
Christopher P. Edgin
"Haben sie nicht ein kuhe, mann!"
Amiga users never have a cow ;-)
Robert J Goos
: That Escom doesn't know of the machine that they just bought smells like
: the ol' Commode-ore again. Sigh. WON'T THIS MACHINE GET ANY RESPECT?!?!?
Respect would be great, but even that isn't necessary. I'd be happy if
the Amiga were owned by greedy capitalists who only wanted to make a pile
of money by selling machines!!!! At least then we'd have machines, not
two years of empty promises.
Manou BILLA
>--
>Janne Siren
>si...@mikrobitti.fi
You're right Janne! AT had to reinvent the wheel as they don't the production
facilities C= owned! On the other hand one has to keep in mind that C= did sell
their AMIGAs at the end under production price! at least for the A1200!
So they did sell a lot of A1200 but didn't make any money from it!
Bye Manou
------------------------_----------------------------------------------
Manou BILLA | _ // Connect your AMIGAs...
4, Ave. Nic Kreins| \X/ ... A1000 / A2500 / A3000 ...
L-9536 WILTZ | ------ Member Team AMIGA Luxembourg ------
| email manou...@ci.educ.lu FIDO 2:2455/160.8
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tonio Voerman
>In article <44ej2b$3...@nntp.interaccess.com> b...@thymaster.interaccess.com (J. Poag) writes:
>
>Hmm, I feel the subject line is not appropriate, since Escom never
>officially promised to sell Amigas through Escom stores. In fact they (or
>AT) said they *wouldn't*.
>
>
>> [..] I HAVE sent E-Mail to Gilles Bourdin twice, and had no reply.
>
>He's a busy man, can't answer everyone with a gripe :)
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
> Thomas Tavoly + A4000 = tta...@amiga.ow.nl | tta...@cistron.nl _
> -I'm in therapy for Chronic Windows Defenestration Syndrome.._ //
>---------------------------------------------- [.sig v3.1pl9] -\X/-
>
Hoi Thomas,
Leuk om weer eens te zien dat je nog leeft.
Groetjes
Tonio
p.s. Ik duim net als jij dat de Amiga's gauw weer te koop zullen zijn en
liefst ook nog in grote hoeveelheden.
De advertenties in Amiga Magazin van bijna 5000 DM voor de Amiga 4000 met
1 GB schijf en 8 Mb geheugen vind ik toch wel erg prijzig. Vooral omdat er
ook nog eens voor dat geldt nog geen 68060 inzit!
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tonio Voerman
email ajlm...@cs.ruu.nl
Marc Aussems
>
>
>Hoi Thomas,
>
Well, Thomas did understand that you have to write English here!!
(oftewel engels typen)
Regards, (groeten)
Marc Aussems
m.j.l....@student.utwente.nl
Tonio Voerman
>In <ttavol...@amiga.ow.nl> tta...@amiga.ow.nl (Thomas Tavoly) writes:
>
>
>>In article <44ej2b$3...@nntp.interaccess.com> b...@thymaster.interaccess.com (J. Poag) writes:
>>
>>Hmm, I feel the subject line is not appropriate, since Escom never
>>officially promised to sell Amigas through Escom stores. In fact they (or
>>AT) said they *wouldn't*.
>>
>>
>>> [..] I HAVE sent E-Mail to Gilles Bourdin twice, and had no reply.
>>
>>He's a busy man, can't answer everyone with a gripe :)
>>
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Thomas Tavoly + A4000 = tta...@amiga.ow.nl | tta...@cistron.nl _
>> -I'm in therapy for Chronic Windows Defenestration Syndrome.._ //
>>---------------------------------------------- [.sig v3.1pl9] -\X/-
>>
>
>Hoi Thomas,
>
>Leuk om weer eens te zien dat je nog leeft.
>
>Groetjes
>
>Tonio
>
>p.s. Ik duim net als jij dat de Amiga's gauw weer te koop zullen zijn en
>liefst ook nog in grote hoeveelheden.
>De advertenties in Amiga Magazin van bijna 5000 DM voor de Amiga 4000 met
>1 GB schijf en 8 Mb geheugen vind ik toch wel erg prijzig. Vooral omdat er
>ook nog eens voor dat geldt nog geen 68060 inzit!
>
>
>
>--
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Tonio Voerman
>email ajlm...@cs.ruu.nl
>
Oops, sorry people, this was supposed to be email, not a followup. Must
have pushed the wrong key. I'll check my typing next time better. So
spare yourself the trouble of explaining the netiquette, it's known.
Tonio
Ray Milbrandt
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ŻŻ On Sep 29 95 06:18 Used The Address of 3:690/660.1000@fidonet
ŻŻ And beve...@aol.com Said Something About ESCOM CAUGHT IN ANOTHER LIE
----------------------------------------------------------------------
b> From: beve...@aol.com (B E Verins)
b> That Escom doesn't know of the machine that they just bought smells like
b> the ol' Commode-ore again. Sigh. WON'T THIS MACHINE GET ANY RESPECT?!?!?
Its very sad.. that the Amiga can be one of the top selling machines
and there is no company knows or want to do the right thing for it.
Regards
Rat
Dr. Peter Kittel
>In article <44ms7k$4...@grandcanyon.binc.net>, ced...@mailbag.com
>(Christopher P. Edgin) wrote:
>> I guess you havent heard. Escom has officially stated that the WILL NOT sell
>> the Amiga in their chain of stores. They cite potential difficulties in
>traing
>> their staff.
>>
>> They plan to sell the Amiga primarily through mail order.
>
>mail order), it's just black humor, right? If it is true, don't cite me a
>source, just shoot me now.
No need to, it's not true. In most countries, Amiga will be sold through
the traditional channels, computer shops for the bigger Amigas, warehouses
and mail order houeses for the smaller ones.
--
Best Regards, Dr. Peter Kittel //
Private Site in Frankfurt, Germany \X/ Email to: pet...@combo.ganesha.com
Employed at Amiga Technologies GmbH in Bensheim, Germany
Currently only rarely reachable via email and news, sorry.
Jack andrews
: Amiga Technologies stated one month ago prices incredibly lower for new
: and more powerful Amigas; and now were are they.
: I have an A3000, an A2000 and a CD32+SX-1 and a month ago I was thinking
: to buy one of the new Amigas they were talking about.
: Now I'm thinking to buy an MS-Dos or a Power Mac !
: Roberto
This is exactly my point. Lower the prices, they are way too high.
--
Jack Andrews
am...@primenet.com
Jack andrews
: If you want to sell something now, you need competitive prices from the
Hey, why bring common horse sense here?
You are correct. Lead them along with promises of lower prices.
Jack Andrews
am...@primenet.com
Jack andrews
: their staff.
: They plan to sell the Amiga primarily through mail order.
Why, couldn't be that they are trying to hide from "Amiga" association,
now could it?
Jack Andrews
am...@primenet.com
Brian Gragg
|> You are just the type of customer that they love. One who pays through
|> the nose and believes the bull about the need for high prices.
|>
Prices are set for various reasons. In AT's case I'd bet it went like this.
Marketing guys put together a spreadsheet that shows price vs sales that
might look like this:
A4000T
Price Sales in 95
----- -----------
$1500 100,000
$2000 50,000
$2500 10,000
$3000 2,000
Production suppies the info on how many they can make (this is where the
difficulty of startup etc.. comes in). They say 'We can produce 10,000
A4000T's in 1995.
So they price is set at $2500.
You have to trust your marketing and production people to do their jobs,
but both are making educated guesses. Sure I could price it at $1500,
but then I'd have 90,000 very upset people sreaming that they want
their machines. It ends up doing similar damange to selling for
$2500 and having people get upset because it's too high. Difference
is AT makes better profit at $2500 ($100,000 more) which will help them
market and price reduce the product.
Future years shouldn't be so production limited so they'll use other
methods of setting price, but right now it's a seller's market on new
machines so they can charge more.
This doesn't mean I'm going to fork out for the new units. I can't afford
the prices. I just hope AT can ramp up production and bring the costs down
while there is still an Amiga market left.
Brian
bri...@sdd.hp.com
Jack andrews
: methods of setting price, but right now it's a seller's market on new
: machines so they can charge more.
: This doesn't mean I'm going to fork out for the new units. I can't afford
: the prices.I just hope AT can ramp up production and bring the costs down
: while there is still an Amiga market left.
Whatever the strategy, the BOTTOM LINE IS (quoted from you)
"This doesn't mean I'm going to fork out for the new units. I can't afford
the prices."
MY SENTIMENT EXACTLY. While we are at the core issue of Amiga survival,
let's ask anyone here.
How many of you CAN afford the prices? I'll be the second response after you,
I can't afford the prices, just like you.
Jack Andrews
am...@primenet.com
Jack andrews
: again and again millions of dollars but hasn't made any profit yet. Prices are
: bound to be high at first, but they'll come down.
You are just the type of customer that they love. One who pays through
the nose and believes the bull about the need for high prices.
Jack Andrews
am...@primenet.com
John Richter
>the traditional channels, computer shops for the bigger Amigas, warehouses
>and mail order houeses for the smaller ones.
>
>--
>Best Regards, Dr. Peter Kittel //
Welcome Dr. Kittel!
It sure is nice to have you visit us once in a while to clear all the smoke
flowing around this area lately. Thanks for the clarification and don't hesitate to
visit again, we appresiate your time and effort in responding to some of this
non-sense! :)
Roberto Giacomelli
Commodore) and now you can buy a PowerPC 6100/66 + 486 DX2-66 card, 700
Mb HD, 16 Mb RAM and a 17" monitor for 5500000 Lit. !!!
Roberto
Kim Pugh
=>In article <44rgap$i...@krant.cs.ruu.nl>, ajlm...@cs.ruu.nl says...
=>>
=>>
=>>Hoi Thomas,
=>>
=>Well, Thomas did understand that you have to write English here!!
=>(oftewel engels typen)
=>Regards, (groeten)
=>Marc Aussems
=>m.j.l....@student.utwente.nl
Well, I suppose you don't HAVE to use English. It's just a more common
coin these days.
--
Kim Pugh | DISCLAIMER: Opinions expressed are *strictly*
-----------------+ those of the last person I talked to.
k...@telepath.com | *Telepath.com info: 405-755-1990. Login as guest*
http://www.telepath.com/kim/ | ftp://ftp.telepath.com/people/kim
Roberto Giacomelli
much for a Cyberstorm 060 now.
If the amiga won't sell with low prices, we will get a dead computer,
and after that there won't be software houses working on amiga
platforms.
The software of the Mac is high, I know it, but they do offers to
students (Amiga have never done those things, really stupid) and I can
find a whole bunch of CDs at affordable prices.
The prices of CDs for the Amiga are lower but ther are so few things ...
Roberto
Tom Smith
: Whatever the strategy, the BOTTOM LINE IS (quoted from you)
: "This doesn't mean I'm going to fork out for the new units. I can't afford
: the prices."
: MY SENTIMENT EXACTLY. While we are at the core issue of Amiga survival,
: let's ask anyone here.
: How many of you CAN afford the prices? I'll be the second response after you,
: I can't afford the prices, just like you.
I can afford $2,500 for a computer, but I won't pay it. I have an A3000 which
performs nicely (with upgrades). Also, I'd like to see what the A5000 will look
like. And if it never comes, then oh well; The Amiga wouldn't be supported
anyway.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| ----- | ------- | Living on Earth is expensive, but you get |
| / __ | Intel Outside | an anual free trip around the Sun. |
| / /_/ /|/| | ------- | |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| tes...@phoenix.net http://www.phoenix.net/~tesmith/default.html |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Haynie
> Who is the Amiga in compitition with? IBM? Apple?
Yes.
>Why is it that Apple can sell Macs for alot more than comparative
>PC's and still be on the market.
They can't. Sure, they once did. They had a significant advantage, the
Mac OS. And for awhile, they operated on very high margins, relative
to similar PCs. But those times have been over with for quite
awhile. Sure, Apple cost more than a basic PClone you piece together
from commodity parts at a computer faire. But they're competative with
PCs from any similarly sized company: Compaq, IBM, etc. You can even
give the edge to the Mac in some cases: a 120MHz PPC604 processor is
significantly faster than a 120-133MHz Pentium.
>If the GIANT PC's have such a foothold in the industry, then why
>are Mac's still so popular?
Apple has been losing market share for some time. From a peak of
somewhere around 12%, they're now at about 8.5-9% (based on various
industry sources). Apple's done as well as it has for one reason: good
marketing. That's the same good marketing that gave you $1500 Apple
IIs that weren't significantly faster, better, or more capable than
$250.00 C64 systems.
>: Hey, why bring common horse sense here?
Marketing preys on emotions, it's relatively independent of good
sense. If good sense were the dominating factor in most personal
computer selections, the Amiga would have been very strong from its
introduction.
Dave Haynie | ex-Commodore Engineering | for DiskSalv 3 &
Sr. Systems Engineer | Hardwired Media Company | "The Deathbed Vigil"
Scala Inc., US R&D | Ki No Kawa Aikido | in...@iam.com
"I don't owe you anything!" -Foo Fighters
Evert de Vos
-- snip --
: : You should remember, that they had to start the production over, not just to
: : continue. I think, that's the main reason for the high prices. But as you
: : said, the first 20000 Amiga 4000s are sold to companies and rich people, and
: : after that (probably in the beginning of the next year), they will lower the
: : price.
:
: : I don't think the prices are so high just because they decided to earn lots
: : of money. This is a very primitive way of thinking for the bosses of a
: : company.
:
: Exactly; if ESCOM/AT decided to bleed the people who need Amigas dry, then
: they would be shooting themselves in the foot. After all, these people
: who buy Amigas now, are more then likely going to stay with AT and support
: them - but if AT rip 'em off now then these people will just stuff their
: computer into a box, and re sell it. Bad marketing idea. So thats why these
: "high" prices are not really AT's fault..
:
: : Greetings, Andy.
Oh no, wake up people, are there still companies that rely on amiga's
after the last year? I don't think so, but correct me if I'm wrong. I
do have the money to buy a new amiga, but I won't do that!! Why not?
Well just as you, I'll wait till the prices lower, till then, I can
still go on with the A2000 and A3000 I have. And if everyone thinks
like that the prices never lower, so AT have to lower them first so
nobody has to wait, and everyone who wants a new amiga can buy it
without being afraid for paying too much.
Evert
Philip Chung
>You should remember, that they had to start the production over, not just to
>continue. I think, that's the main reason for the high prices. But as you
>said, the first 20000 Amiga 4000s are sold to companies and rich people, and
>after that (probably in the beginning of the next year), they will lower the
>price.
I agree with you, however, I think that the rumoured 030 based A1200 should not
cost anymore than the stock A1200 now and should have more RAM. A hard disk
version (should AT decide to continue with the FD only option) should not cost
100UKP more than the floppy only version.
--
__
__/\_\__ E-Mail: ee9...@brunel.ac.uk
/\_\/_/\_\ Brunel University
\/_/\_\/_/ Uxbridge
\/_/ UK
Peter Lankenau
folgenden Text unter dem Betreff "Re: ** ESCOM CAUGHT IN ANOTHER LIE **" zu erzeugen:
> G'Day Nicolai Thilo, in comp.sys.amiga.emulations you wrote:
> : In article <4542v3$o...@nnrp2.nfs.primenet.com>, Jack andrews (am...@primenet.com) wrote:
>
> : >How many of you CAN afford the prices?
>
> : Amiga hardware has always been quite expensive. But I already have 4
> : Amigas, so I'm in no hurry to buy a new one. I'll wait and see what
> : they want to do in the future.
>
> I'll probably go out and get another 4000 system early next year if it
> means that I'm supporting AT
>
> : >I'll be the second response after you,
> : >I can't afford the prices, just like you.
>
> : A4000Ts. And the powerusers/fanatics with a good income... ;-)
> : Result: AT will make more money on those who can afford it and then
> : (hopefully) lower the prices later when the demand isn't so high.
>
> More then likely this will be the case. But some people dont see it this
> way.
>
> : --- __
> : /\/./. "I'M A NAUGHTY FELLOW!!!" -The Sexecutioner, GWAR.
Was soll das, ueber Preise labern. Der Amiga war schon immer etwas teurer.
Aber auch preisstabil, siehe gebrauchtmarkt. -> kann man von Dosen nun
nicht gerade behaupten.
Dazu kommt, eine gute Maschine ist ihr Geld wert ;-)
Wer schon zwei oder mehr Rechner hat, wozu noch einer? - nur weil anderes
Logo?
Peter
heute neu ist morgen alt & von gestern
Dan Green
> I agree with you, however, I think that the rumoured 030 based A1200 should not
> cost anymore than the stock A1200 now and should have more RAM. A hard disk
> version (should AT decide to continue with the FD only option) should not cost
> 100UKP more than the floppy only version.
Why not include a 030, FPU socket and SIMM's on the board. That would be
simple (hell, I could probably do it myself) and it would increase performance
and free up the expansion port.
______________________________________________________
o o /// Dan Green -------- E-MAIL:etx...@tn.ericsson.se \\\
O /// Software Designer ---"Happy AMIGA user since 1987" \\\
`---' /// Ericsson Telecom AB ------------ Voice: +46 8 351278 \\\
\\\ /// ------ THIS IS MY OWN OPINION, NOT ERICSSON'S -------- \\\ ///
\\\/// Windows Error #56: Operator fell asleep while waiting \\\///
\XX/____________________________________________________________\XX/
Daniel Howard
>In article <45h309$j...@izar.brunel.ac.uk>, Philip Chung <ee9...@brunel.ac.uk> writes:
>> I agree with you, however, I think that the rumoured 030 based A1200 should not
>> cost anymore than the stock A1200 now and should have more RAM.
>
>simple (hell, I could probably do it myself) and it would increase performance
>and free up the expansion port.
The machine is not a rumor, it is currently "vaporware" but is planned to be
reality early next year, Marchish ... it will have all these features as well
as some provision for easily adding CD-ROM/MPEG :)
--
=====///====================================================================
====///=======This message brought to you by dann...@uiuc.edu==============
\\\///=========HOME PAGE! http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward ==============
=\XX/A1200==================================================================
"Our ship is broken. Can you make it go?"
Paul van der Heu
: Oh no, wake up people, are there still companies that rely on amiga's
: after the last year? I don't think so, but correct me if I'm wrong.
OK, let me correct you.. I know of a great many companies who rely on
amiga systems. I know of at least three video production companies who
just finished a movie with amigas in charge of special effects and 3D
CGI scenes.
I know if numerous institutions and companies using amiga systems in
information system setups. There are more Amiga based systems in kiosks
then you would like to know.. check your local cable news service, chances
are they run Amiga systems, BIG hotel chains like Hilton use Amiga systems
exclusively for in-house communication and cable infosystems.
: I do have the money to buy a new amiga, but I won't do that!! Why not?
: Well just as you, I'll wait till the prices lower, till then, I can
: still go on with the A2000 and A3000 I have.
That is just fine, companies who make money using the Amiga will be more
then happy to buy the first amigas availble, they will get their investment
back within 6-8 months anyway.
--
Paul 'Starchild' van der Heu, The MotherShip Connection
pv...@motship.xs4all.nl
OK, I admit MAC OS 7.5.1 isn't that bad..
Especially since it runs on my Amiga 3000
Branko Collin
Daniel Howard <dann...@uiuc.edu> writes:
>
>Pet_La...@WILAM.north.de (Peter Lankenau) wrote:
>>Was soll das, ueber Preise labern. Der Amiga war schon immer etwas teurer.
>>Aber auch preisstabil, siehe gebrauchtmarkt. -> kann man von Dosen nun
>>nicht gerade behaupten.
>>
>>Dazu kommt, eine gute Maschine ist ihr Geld wert ;-)
>>
>>Wer schon zwei oder mehr Rechner hat, wozu noch einer? - nur weil anderes
>>Logo?
>>
>
>agree with, but only because I don't have any idea what it says! Hopefully
>nobody else will either and the thread will die, thanks to Peter! Yay!
Those of us who have actually had an education know what it says.
So there!
Seriously, though, what is your problem? Feeling a little xenophobe
today?
................................... Lots of people talking ....
. Branko Collin . Very few of them know .
. . That the soul of a woman .
. // u24...@vm.uci.kun.nl . Was created below .
. \X/ bco...@mpi.nl . .
................................. Led Zeppelin - Dazed and Confused ..
Daniel Howard
>Was soll das, ueber Preise labern. Der Amiga war schon immer etwas teurer.
>Aber auch preisstabil, siehe gebrauchtmarkt. -> kann man von Dosen nun
>nicht gerade behaupten.
>
>Dazu kommt, eine gute Maschine ist ihr Geld wert ;-)
>
>Wer schon zwei oder mehr Rechner hat, wozu noch einer? - nur weil anderes
>Logo?
>
Damn right! So far this is the first post on this thread that I've seen that I
agree with, but only because I don't have any idea what it says! Hopefully
nobody else will either and the thread will die, thanks to Peter! Yay!
--
Chris Hall
: In article <45h309$j...@izar.brunel.ac.uk>, Philip Chung <ee9...@brunel.ac.uk> writes:
: > I agree with you, however, I think that the rumoured 030 based A1200 should not
: > cost anymore than the stock A1200 now and should have more RAM. A hard disk
: > version (should AT decide to continue with the FD only option) should not cost
: > 100UKP more than the floppy only version.
: Why not include a 030, FPU socket and SIMM's on the board. That would be
: simple (hell, I could probably do it myself) and it would increase performance
: and free up the expansion port.
I think they were stupid for not making some minor changes such as that
in the system before they tooled up to produce the machines. I bet they
could have contracted out to some of the ex-Commodore engineers to do
some minor changes before they went into production. I think that much
of the Amiga community would have been reassured to hear that some
changes were being made by some of the ex-C= engineers before production
started. I'm sure that most changes would have only takes a couple of
weeks to finish.
Back in June, I suggested to Dr Kittel that they should make some minor
changes like what you mentioned above and also the addition of a SCSI
interface to the system at the expense of the built in RF modulator and
possibly replacing the external floppy connector with a 25pin SCSI
connector but they could have used the knock out panel for it. Either
they just desided to ignore that people wanted some minor changes or they
used old molds and whatever to build the machines.
If they didn't want to put a SCSI 2 controller on it, they could have
gone with the same SCSI hardware and software that's in the 3000. I
bet it wouldn't have taken a few hours for someone to make the changes
on the board designs in some board designing software. They would have
made some money off of existing A1200 owners that wanted to get a new
motherboard.
Chris Hall
Daniel Howard
>I think they were stupid for not making some minor changes such as that
>in the system before they tooled up to produce the machines. I bet they
>could have contracted out to some of the ex-Commodore engineers to do
>some minor changes before they went into production. I think that much
>of the Amiga community would have been reassured to hear that some
>changes were being made by some of the ex-C= engineers before production
>started. I'm sure that most changes would have only takes a couple of
>weeks to finish.
I bet they're tired of nits like you who haven't studied the problem
criticising them. They took a week or two to make their decisions. It was
concluded that if machines were to be enhanced before first run, production
would be put back some months, machines might not have appeared until after
Christmas. Rather, current designs will be sold while the new ones are
redesigned, tested, perfected and likely subjected to the market demands (juicy
processor vs extra SIMM vs cost vs CD-ROM, etc) ... one can't just hange the
design of a complex equipment on a whim, unless you *like* poor quality
control. Besides, there are already 120,000 that have said they'd rather have
old designs now rather than new designs later. That's $120,000 people with pens
already to their checkbooks ...
Chris Hall
: I bet they're tired of nits like you who haven't studied the problem
: criticising them.
I admit I'm a nitpicker but if it wasn't for us folks that bring
attention to problems and oversites, a lot of them would go unnoticed. I
bet you've done some nitpicking yourself.
: They took a week or two to make their decisions. It was
: concluded that if machines were to be enhanced before first run, production
: would be put back some months, machines might not have appeared until after
: Christmas. Rather, current designs will be sold while the new ones are
: redesigned, tested, perfected and likely subjected to the market demands (juicy
: processor vs extra SIMM vs cost vs CD-ROM, etc) ... one can't just hange the
: design of a complex equipment on a whim, unless you *like* poor quality
: control. Besides, there are already 120,000 that have said they'd rather have
: old designs now rather than new designs later. That's $120,000 people with pens
: already to their checkbooks ... ^^^^^^^^
$120,000 people? :)
Some changes are much easier than others. For instance, adding a
math coprocessor socket would require no changes, pads exist for it already.
Adding a SCSI controller would have been a bit harder but it probably
wouldn't have forced the delay of the design that long. Any ex-C=
engineers want to comment on how long it would take to path a SCSI
controller into the 1200 motherboard designs? Instead of rebuilding the
kickstart image for the 1200, they could have just put the SCSI.device
on disk as 2nd.scsi.device until they did a kickstart update.
Adding a 68030 and SIMM socket would have probably been to difficult to
add in a short time. Adding a SIMM socket would have probably forced a
design change on the case.
Chris Hall
MARC EDWARD FORRESTER
>There's also the fact that this is an English language group.
>The original poster (and all who replied) should have either posted
>in English, or posted in one of the '.de' groups instead.
Accepted that if there are comp.sys.amiga.*.de, that would probably
be the best place to post in deutsch, but does it really make this
an 'English language' group? And if it is, why isn't called
comp.sys.amiga.*.eng? (Or similar)
Besides which, it occurs that .de groups are probably only distributed
within the realms of .de, and maybe a couple of old colonies of such.
What if you want global distribution, but only speak german?
Angus Manwaring
: Besides which, it occurs that .de groups are probably only distributed
: within the realms of .de, and maybe a couple of old colonies of such.
: What if you want global distribution, but only speak german?
Well, last time they tried by invading Poland.
--
Regards,
Angus.
There's a Thargoid ship out there somewhere, and I want it!
an...@angusm.demon.co.uk
MARC EDWARD FORRESTER
>>Besides which, it occurs that .de groups are probably only distributed
>>within the realms of .de, and maybe a couple of old colonies of such.
>
>although not everyone is actually receiving.
Well, yes, that's more what I meant. Surely not many english speaking
nodes bother to upload the de. newsgroups?
Angus Manwaring
: Angus Manwaring (an...@angusm.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: : Well, last time they tried by invading Poland.
: Not a very good joke... I know there are a lot of people to whom this is a
: touchy subject.
I agree, not a very good joke, but far worse to pretend it didn't happen.
Regards,
Angus.
Windows.....fragile, potentially dangerous and quite transparent.
Mike Merriman
In article <45ubpi$f...@idefix.eunet.fi>, si...@dns.mikrobitti.fi (Janne Siren) writes:
|>I just can't believe people still are whining about this. We should be happy
|>the Amigas are back in the shops and development is resumed. Now, if we
|>still haven't got a new machine in christmas 1996 we can complain, but hey,
|>lets give the guys at AT a chance... I think they deserve it. Amiga
|>deserves it.
|>
|>--
|>Janne Siren
|>si...@mikrobitti.fi, http://www.mikrobitti.fi/~siren/
|>
Here, here. I couldn't agree more. I think it's pretty darned amazing that AT
got the mahines back on the shelves so quickly. All you moaners should look at
what they HAVE achieved in such a short time not complain about what they haven't
After all it has only been about five months and they had to start from scratch.
I'd like to see any of YOU do any better! I for one will continue to support AT
until I feel that they have broken their word or that they are no longer a
company I want to buy from.
Cheers for now
Mike
Angus Manwaring
: Nobody is pretending anything... it happened, but that is not the fault of
: the new generations...
Did I say it was? Look Janne, don't presume to lecture me on what topics
humour can be applied to. Okay?
--
Regards,
Angus.
"Sharon...........can you hear me?"
Greg Baldwin
ev...@sh.bel.alcatel.be writes:
>Oh no, wake up people, are there still companies that rely on amiga's
>do have the money to buy a new amiga, but I won't do that!! Why not?
>Well just as you, I'll wait till the prices lower, till then, I can
>like that the prices never lower, so AT have to lower them first so
>nobody has to wait, and everyone who wants a new amiga can buy it
>without being afraid for paying too much.
>
>Evert
>
Its is true that the Commodore bankrupcy has cause some people to move
from the Amiga to other platforms, buy you must also remember this - many
people have great deals of money tied into their Amigas. May it be the
Amiga itself, the extra hardware, or the software, some people have
$10,000+ invested into each of their Amigas. I don't think they they
would sway like a willow tree whenever there is a problem. If they
invested that much in the first place, they most likly had looked into
the Amiga market beforehand.
And last of all, a lot of companies that use the Amiga just CAN'T move to
other platforms. The software doesn't exist, or is just starting to come
out.
Janne Siren
: Janne Siren (si...@dns.mikrobitti.fi) wrote:
: : Angus Manwaring (an...@angusm.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: : : I agree, not a very good joke, but far worse to pretend it didn't happen.
: : Nobody is pretending anything... it happened, but that is not the fault of
: : the new generations...
: Did I say it was? Look Janne, don't presume to lecture me on what topics
: humour can be applied to. Okay?
Sorry, didn't mean to lecture. I was just pointing out, that this subject may
not be the best for humour...
MARC EDWARD FORRESTER
>Here, here. I couldn't agree more. I think it's pretty darned amazing
>that AT got the mahines back on the shelves so quickly.
Aren't they just selling off old warehouse stock?
Not that I think there's anything wrong with that, I just think they're
being a bit silly with the prices. Who do they think the market is?
Angus Manwaring
: : humour can be applied to. Okay?
: Sorry, didn't mean to lecture. I was just pointing out, that this subject may
: not be the best for humour...
Fair enough, I accept your point as being a valid one.
--
Angus Manwaring.
"What, can Amigas get the Internet, then?"
James McArthur
What old warehouse stock? Do you know what happens when a company goes
into liquidation/bankruptcy? EVERYTHING is sold off. In Australia, the
person can only have assests < $500. Companies would have a similar
limitation.
In other words, the only thing left would have been a photo of the warehouse.
--
___ ___ ______ ______ ______ ______ ___ ___ ______
/ / / // ___ \ / ___ \ / ___ \ /\ / ___ \ / / / // ___ \
/ /__/ // / // / // / // // / // /__/ // / /
\___ // / // / // / // // / / \___ // / /
/ // / // / // / // // / / / // / /
\__/ \______/ \______/ \______/ \/ \______/ \__/ \______/
J. Eriksen
>From: cee...@cee.hw.ac.uk (Mike Merriman)
>Subject: Re: ** ESCOM CAUGHT IN ANOTHER LIE **
>Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 15:37:52 GMT
<Stuff>
>Here, here. I couldn't agree more. I think it's pretty darned amazing that
>AT got the mahines back on the shelves so quickly. All you moaners should
I think that only goes for the 1200. The 4000T is scheduled for November. But
i just got informed that I won't receive my 4000/060/50T before January
-96, that sucks! I don't blame AT for that. It is most likely Motorola that
can't deliver enough or any 060 before this date.
>look atwhat they HAVE achieved in such a short time not complain about
>what they haven't. After all it has only been about five months and they had
>to start from scratch. I'd like to see any of YOU do any better! I for one
>will continue to support AT until I feel that they have broken their word or
>that they are no longer a company I want to buy from.
Here, here again. Give the people at AT some time to settle. Even if I
personally would like to see the 4000's out now.
>Cheers for now
>Mike
MARC EDWARD FORRESTER
>>being a bit silly with the prices. Who do they think the market is?
>
No. The way I see it, at least part of their market is people like me,
who want a home computer upgrade, and plan on it being an Amiga because
they're bloody good home computers.
Well, we don't want stock 1200's with no hard drives and 2M ram.
So who does? They must be expecting to sell to -someone-.
Dr. Peter Kittel
>Mike Merriman <cee...@cee.hw.ac.uk> wrote:
>>Here, here. I couldn't agree more. I think it's pretty darned amazing
>>that AT got the mahines back on the shelves so quickly.
>
No. Completely built new from scratch. The only inventory from old
Commodore were some cables and chips, no boards or machines.
>Not that I think there's anything wrong with that, I just think they're
>being a bit silly with the prices. Who do they think the market is?
There are several markets. But fact is that the A1200's which shipped
until now (ca. 10,000) were sold out immediately and we get many calls
from customers who ask us where in their neighbourhood they can get
them.
--
Best Regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // Visit http://www.amiga.de
Private Site in Frankfurt, Germany \X/ Email to: pet...@combo.ganesha.com
Employed at Amiga Technologies GmbH in Bensheim, Germany
Currently only rarely reachable via email and news, sorry
Back from vacation, 26220 articles unread...
dm...@minster.york.ac.uk
>James Cooper <ja...@cdevil.unx.sas.com> wrote:
>>There's also the fact that this is an English language group.
>>The original poster (and all who replied) should have either posted
>>in English, or posted in one of the '.de' groups instead.
>Accepted that if there are comp.sys.amiga.*.de, that would probably
>be the best place to post in deutsch, but does it really make this
>an 'English language' group? And if it is, why isn't called
>comp.sys.amiga.*.eng? (Or similar)
Just to add my $0.02 (DM0,02, FF0,02...) worth:
Just because the majority of posts to c.s.a.* are in English doesn't
mean that it's an English language group. As far as I'm concerned, people
can post in any language; it's just that English will give the widest
audience, and therefore the highest likelihood of getting a reply to a
question posted here. The 'net *is* anglo-centric in nature, but it is
naive, perhaps, to expect a globally-distributed n/g to carry only
english-language posts.
*thinks* What has all this to do with Amigas? :-)
regards (and 'Gute Wuenschen' too?)
-David Hollway
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Hollway (dm...@tower.york.ac.uk) | //Amiga 4000-040-SCSI-CDROM-PII-
Dept. of Computer Science, University of | \X/840MB "Amiga - Why Compromise?"
York, York YO1 5DD, ENGLAND. | In Basel, Switzerland until 06/95
WWW Home: http://www.york.ac.uk/~dmh11/ | Tel: (010) (+41) 61 6975460
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
MARC EDWARD FORRESTER
>And there is demand. If they can cover the initial costs by selling the
>machines at a little higher price for the people that can, want and will buy
>Amigas now, then this is a good thing. Escom sees there is a market.
Who is this market that want 2M 1200's with 170M hard drives?
It is not me, or people of my nature, I deem.
Gerhard Gehrmann
Janne Siren
: It is not me, or people of my nature, I deem.
Well, according to Dr. Kittel, the first 10 000 A1200's shipped were sold
immediately. There is demand...
MARC EDWARD FORRESTER
>No. Completely built new from scratch. The only inventory from old
>Commodore were some cables and chips, no boards or machines.
Okay.. So.. Why was the maximum spec 2M and a 170M drive?
It just seems a bit, you know.. Crap.
There's dozens of machines like that in Micro Mart every week,
for rather less in the way of cash.
Are you advertising anywhere, BTW? Haven't noticed any.
(You know, Amigas, damn cheap, huge software support,
have been able to do all this Win95 crap for years?)
Oh yes, and is there any truth in the overheard that AT may be
producing an IBM version of workbench? That would be cool.
(I'm still using DR ViewMax as my laptop's file manager.. :>
Whatever happened to digital research, eh?)
MARC EDWARD FORRESTER
>Well, according to Dr. Kittel, the first 10 000 A1200's shipped were sold
>immediately. There is demand...
Well, I dunno. Is that a lot?
What I'm interested in is who's buying that sort of machine at that sort
of price and what for? Maybe most of them plan to install bigger drives
and suchlike for themselves, and don't have any other place to get Amigas?
(Presumably they're not as easy to find second hand outside the UK)
Janne Siren
: It just seems a bit, you know.. Crap.
Well, why do you think? They didn't have time to make any modifications! Of
course they could've added a bigger hard drive but this way the price is
at least some what reasonable and anyone can buy an A1200 without a HD and
then add a bigger HD...
Adam Szymczak
North America must put a rather large amount of cash ( a million or so)
in order to have the right to distribute Amigas over here?
Why was Commodore Canada shown the door, when the wished to distribute
the Amiga in Canada? They had the distribution system, the warehouse, the
service department, they had contacts. Sure they didn't have any money -
blame the stupid proceedings to sell the assets of Commodore for that -
no product, no income.
The fact that Commodore Canada was still around when ESCOM purchased the
assets, says something.
Who is going to distribute the Amiga in Canada?
--
Yours truly,
Adam Szymczak, BA Master of Arts in Geography (Urban Planning)
szy...@server.uwindsor.ca University of Windsor, Ontario, Canada
tommy kuei-che hwang
ummm... SMG?:wq
tommy kuei-che hwang
MARC EDWARD FORRESTER <me...@aber.ac.uk> wrote:
>Dr. Peter Kittel <pet...@combo.ganesha.com> wrote:
>>No. Completely built new from scratch. The only inventory from old
>>Commodore were some cables and chips, no boards or machines.
>
>It just seems a bit, you know.. Crap.
Maybe the templates for the machines, if redesigned, will be
too expensive for Amiga Technologies? If not, or if AT still need to
make templates anyway, why not just add in RAM expansion, even without
any ram in the slots for the final product? It is not that expensive.
I personally do not see why AT want to keep the original A1200
case design, I mean... I personally believe that it is ugly anyway.
Eyal Teler
|> Why include an 030 though? Unless AT spend loads more on the CPU then at present
|> then you'll get no gain (it would have to be a 16MHz 030EC - if they make them).
|> You'd get more performance out of a 28MHz 020.
A 16MHz 030EC will be very nice, if it comes socketed, with a clock in
a socket, too. Then you'll be able to upgrade up to a 50MHz 030 by just
replacing the CPU and clock, not needing any special and expensive card.
ET
--
te...@cs.huji.ac.il
ET's home page is at http://www.cs.huji.ac.il/~teler
Jason Compton
: Why was Commodore Canada shown the door, when the wished to distribute
: the Amiga in Canada? They had the distribution system, the warehouse, the
: service department, they had contacts. Sure they didn't have any money -
: blame the stupid proceedings to sell the assets of Commodore for that -
: no product, no income.
: The fact that Commodore Canada was still around when ESCOM purchased the
: assets, says something.
Well, "Doug MacGregor in an office" isn't quite Commodore Canada. Yes,
it's still around, but barely. And actually, since Commodore Canada was
a subsidiary of another Commodore branch in liquidation, it couldn't have
lasted forever, unless someone bought it out.
: Who is going to distribute the Amiga in Canada?
Presumably SMG and/or Software Hut, unless a Canadian company secures a
distribution deal either through those two or directly through Amiga
Technologies.
--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com
Editor-in-Chief, Amiga Report Magazine (708) 741-0689 FAX
The warming sun... ...the cooling rain.
AR on Aminet - docs/mags/ar???.lha AR Mailing list - Mail me
AR on WWW - http://www.omnipresence.com/Amiga/News/AR
Dale Currie
In article <46docf$r...@flood.xnet.com> (Jason Compton) writes:
> Adam Szymczak (szy...@uwindsor.ca) wrote:
>
> : Why was Commodore Canada shown the door, when the wished to distribute
> : the Amiga in Canada? They had the distribution system, the warehouse, the
> : service department, they had contacts. Sure they didn't have any money -
> : blame the stupid proceedings to sell the assets of Commodore for that -
> : no product, no income.
>
> : The fact that Commodore Canada was still around when ESCOM purchased the
> : assets, says something.
>
> Well, "Doug MacGregor in an office" isn't quite Commodore Canada. Yes,
> it's still around, but barely. And actually, since Commodore Canada was
> a subsidiary of another Commodore branch in liquidation, it couldn't have
> lasted forever, unless someone bought it out.
Actually, the remaining company was "Commodore Business Machines", and I
think they were independent from C=International, but I may be wrong there.
I think ESCOM probably just wanted to wipe the whole slate clean, but in a
way it's a shame that something of the original didn't survive.
> : Who is going to distribute the Amiga in Canada?
>
> Presumably SMG and/or Software Hut, unless a Canadian company secures a
> distribution deal either through those two or directly through Amiga
> Technologies.
From what I hear, SMG did not wish to handle the Canadian side of the
distribution (doesn't say much for them), and they have made some
arrangement with Wonder Computers to handle it. I don't blame Wonder for
taking advantage of the opportunity, but it means that we will now have a
two tier distribution system that will only add to costs for the customer
and slow down the supply flow.
--
Cheers,
---
+ _ ____________ tm Dale Currie ____ ___ _ +
| /.\ .. | __ \ / da...@amitrix.com / __[___]__ T tm |
| /___\ /\/\ | | |_) | X sup...@amitrix.com / (o.o) | |
| / \/ ^^ \ | | | \ | / \ BSA, WOTFM, / `-^-' | |
|/ - D E V E L O P M E N T - \ AmiTrix /___ Z O R R O I N K !|
+ --------------------- Technical Support ---------------- +
Michael van Elst
>A 16MHz 030EC will be very nice, if it comes socketed, with a clock in
>a socket, too. Then you'll be able to upgrade up to a 50MHz 030 by just
>replacing the CPU and clock, not needing any special and expensive card.
Of course you won't see a significant difference since you cannot
generally "replace the clock" and have everything work faster.
Regards,
--
Michael van Elst
Internet: mle...@serpens.rhein.de
"A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."
Janne Siren
: bit of the internal casing and shielding, and possibly wire it up with
: a little power supply boost.
I meant a bigger HD in capacity, not in physical size.
Joker
: Just because the majority of posts to c.s.a.* are in English doesn't
: mean that it's an English language group. As far as I'm concerned, people
: can post in any language; it's just that English will give the widest
: audience, and therefore the highest likelihood of getting a reply to a
: question posted here. The 'net *is* anglo-centric in nature, but it is
: naive, perhaps, to expect a globally-distributed n/g to carry only
: english-language posts.
: *thinks* What has all this to do with Amigas? :-)
:
: regards (and 'Gute Wuenschen' too?)
:
Mai oui, je sais, aber ich kann auch Nederlands schrijven oder ist
dass te moeilijk pour English only people ? :-)
(Sorry, Kon het effe niet laten)
Janne Siren
: I personally do not see why AT want to keep the original A1200
They have already stated that a new AGA machine would follow in the spring and
later next year or early 97 a next generation Amiga. Their first priority
was to get the Amigas back to shops ASAP and tjis didn't allow any
modifications to be made. If you think adding a RAM expansions is done
just like that, with a snap of a finger, you're wrong...
Björn Hagström
>tommy kuei-che hwang (thw...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
>: I personally do not see why AT want to keep the original A1200
>: case design, I mean... I personally believe that it is ugly anyway.
>
>They have already stated that a new AGA machine would follow in the spring and
>later next year or early 97 a next generation Amiga. Their first priority
>was to get the Amigas back to shops ASAP and tjis didn't allow any
>modifications to be made. If you think adding a RAM expansions is done
>just like that, with a snap of a finger, you're wrong...
What ever... Is it really a good idea to post this into SIX newsgroups ?
wouldn't ONE be enough ?
/Björn Hagström ping...@ntostud.mh.se
MARC EDWARD FORRESTER
> Maybe the templates for the machines, if redesigned, will be
>too expensive for Amiga Technologies? If not, or if AT still need to
>make templates anyway, why not just add in RAM expansion, even without
>any ram in the slots for the final product? It is not that expensive.
Oh, I intend to, but I'll be buying second hand, I think.
After all, I'm going to have to pull the machine apart to fit a HD.
I'm just concerned that they're throwing away a lot of their market.
Dr. Peter Kittel
>Janne Siren <si...@dns.mikrobitti.fi> wrote:
>>And there is demand. If they can cover the initial costs by selling the
>>machines at a little higher price for the people that can, want and will buy
>>Amigas now, then this is a good thing. Escom sees there is a market.
>
>It is not me, or people of my nature, I deem.
Then you obviously aren't representative. Shops are permanently outsold
here, I hear. But no, we couldn't yet do polls which parts of the
population did buy them.
Dr. Peter Kittel
>Dr. Peter Kittel <pet...@combo.ganesha.com> wrote:
>
>Okay.. So.. Why was the maximum spec 2M and a 170M drive?
>It just seems a bit, you know.. Crap.
That's your miserable opinion. Buyers seem to think different, they
rush for the machines.
>Are you advertising anywhere, BTW? Haven't noticed any.
No, not much. Only a bit in Amiga magazines. Could be dangerous in
the moment as we can't deliver enough anyway.
>Oh yes, and is there any truth in the overheard that AT may be
>producing an IBM version of workbench?
Oops, what? Ah, you mean a port of AmigaOS to such machines.
You're citing my wet dreams, but it's currently just dreams...
David Jarvis
Max Exter <m...@aslan.pr.mala.bc.ca> wrote:
>Jason Compton (jcom...@flood.xnet.com) wrote:
>
>: : Who is going to distribute the Amiga in Canada?
>
>: Presumably SMG and/or Software Hut, unless a Canadian company secures a
>: distribution deal either through those two or directly through Amiga
>: Technologies.
>
>
> - ME -
YAAAY !!!
Now if you can just get someone to ante up to upgrade the system and
programs to being able to work with the rest of the world
(Word/WordPerfect/WWW etc!)
David Jarvis
--
****!! Aaaghh! I'm lost in here and I can't get out !!****
Allan Purtle
: Why is ESCOM insisting that companies wishing to distribute the Amiga in
: North America must put a rather large amount of cash ( a million or so)
: Why was Commodore Canada shown the door, when the wished to distribute
: the Amiga in Canada? They had the distribution system, the warehouse, the
: service department, they had contacts. Sure they didn't have any money -
: blame the stupid proceedings to sell the assets of Commodore for that -
: no product, no income.
: The fact that Commodore Canada was still around when ESCOM purchased the
: assets, says something.
: Who is going to distribute the Amiga in Canada?
: --
: Yours truly,
: Adam Szymczak, BA Master of Arts in Geography (Urban Planning)
: szy...@server.uwindsor.ca University of Windsor, Ontario, Canada
--
Paul Chan
>> >Who is this market that want 2M 1200's with 170M hard drives?
>> >It is not me, or people of my nature, I deem.
>>
>> Then you obviously aren't representative. Shops are permanently outsold
>> here, I hear. But no, we couldn't yet do polls which parts of the
>> population did buy them.
>
>Perhaps ppl only buy 2Mb 1200's with 170Mb HD because those are the ONLY ones
>available?!? I assume you don't have any statistics of 030 boards sold with
>them?
If the A1200HD was a little cheaper I`d have bought one and put an 030 board in
it rightaway. It would be my 4th Amiga BTW.
>
>I hope you'll clear a lot of things up with the new Amiga's (April in the shops?)
>like:
> - Chip Ram bottleneck should be removed. Just add a FULL bus for the custom
> chips. <--- very important
> - 8 (16?) channel sound, independent panning for each channel. 16 bit nice, but
> not necessary.
Could use a DSP for this.
> - A 50Mhz 030.... I sure hope you guys have grown up from the Commodore policy
> of just using 25Mhz stuff. A 50Mhz chip is a fraction more expensive and
> doubles the speed. Just think of the PR.... Breathless, XTreme Racer and
> Starfighter (lowres!) will easily run full-speed on a 50Mhz machine....
A GREAT idea. But Dr Kittel probably wouldn`t agree as it`d cost more than
400UK pounds. BTW, Dr. Kittel. If you are going for a chip clocked at
25Mhz-28Mhz, use an EC020 instead, it`s cheaper and gives users more of a
reason to upgrade to the 50Mhz 030 from an 020 than from another 030. Unless
A1200/040 accelerators are going to become common.
> - Support in the Alice for either Chunky or Planar screens....
Could maybe use a DSP for this. The DSP is looking to be a good bet for extra
hardware...
> - Better colormapping in the system. So no more 8 banks! (coder's gripe... :)
> - Perhaps you could also consider an 040 chip for those couple of quids extra?
Good idea but Dr Kittel probably can`t sell it for under 400 UK pounds then.
Henrik Wetterstrom
:In article <DGquL...@exeter.ac.uk>, k...@msor.ex.ac.uk (Ken Powell) writes:
:|> Why include an 030 though? Unless AT spend loads more on the CPU then at present
:|> then you'll get no gain (it would have to be a 16MHz 030EC - if they make them).
:|> You'd get more performance out of a 28MHz 020.
:A 16MHz 030EC will be very nice, if it comes socketed, with a clock in
:a socket, too. Then you'll be able to upgrade up to a 50MHz 030 by just
:replacing the CPU and clock, not needing any special and expensive card.
..or sueeze a A4000/030 into a A1200 box and name it A1300. Keep as
much A4000 stuff as possible in the A13000, such as SIM sockets,
have sockets for CPU and FPU as well as their crystals.
Forget everything about 68060 and build a brand new high performance
Amiga built on new micro processors with a future, such as PowerPC.
We need a high performance machine, otherwise will video production
market abandon the Amiga in a few years, and with that is there no
market for A4000 either and we are left with just A1200 which is too
slow for being compared to playstations. Which will for sure place
the Amiga in the grave beside the C64. R.I.P. "We will always love you,
and we will never forget you..."
/Henrik
David Jarvis
I was just about ready to trade my A1200 w/204M hard disk, memory, HD
floppy, etc. blah blah in on a new Pentium with Windows '95. Why you
ask? (I hope)
Because not only do we not have compatible import/export of MS
Word/WordPerfect/AmiPro/Excel (or at least RTF), we don't have a decently
usable WWW/Internet package. I have been spending the better part of the
last week screwing with AmiTCP, Mlink, and AMosaic, trying to get some
combination of the above to do something. There are extremely valuable
reference tools out there on Web pages, eaven easier to use than with
archie. But I can't use them! Fortuneately, another amiga user at my
university has been helping me out via email, otherwise I would just give
up and trade this Amiga in for whatever I could get toward a computer
system where the OS developer actively supports the trends in the uses of
the market.
So I hope you are going to do more than just "Look for a `professional
partner'" in the USA. If you won't be one yourself, then you don't
deserve anyone wasting there money on an orphan system in this country.
That means you ought to support people like Softwood over here toward
funding the programming and licensing for cross-platform compatiblility.
you ought to be funding the programming and licensing of "Internet in a
box" for the Amiga, with ready-to-use programs and phone-numbers to dial
in to, as well as Dial-In sript writers, suggestions etc.
These are all projects that shareware/PD authors are working on. But
they, or some company, needs the concerted resources of a corporation
behind them to make these things possible. In return, you would have a
viable computer to market here for more than Video Toasting (which I am
not interested in at all, BTW)
As for money to do this - you said it yourself - you can't keep up with
sales demands anyway.
The Amiga is a brilliant platform; I can do more with the programs I
have in 6 megs of memory than a Pentium platform can in 16 megs. But
without the basics in professional software, the time it takes to get
things to work (shareware, etc.) and the compromises I have to make when
working with other people, will dictate I switch to a Windows 95 machine.
So the challenge: You want a professional partner in the USA to sell Amigas?
Then be a professional partners in making a viable
Amiga SYSTEM to sell!
David Jarvis
2nd Yr medical student
(I used to love the Amiga system, compared to all the rest. Lately I just
use it due to lack of money and time to convert my files over. Maybe
someday I'll enjoy working on it again... maybe)
Stefano Agostinelli
IN ANOTHER LIE **":
> >Who is this market that want 2M 1200's with 170M hard drives? It is not me,
> >or people of my nature, I deem.
>
> Then you obviously aren't representative. Shops are permanently outsold here,
> I hear. But no, we couldn't yet do polls which parts of the population did
> buy them.
Dr.Kittel please note that C= in 1990 was shifting A500s like hot cakes.
I, as a programmer, recognise that AT needs to make some serious announcements
now, at least to developers as NDA. What I heard from you till now does not
give Amiga developers enough reasons to stick with this great machine/OS:
I would love to see the Amiga evolve into a powerful oo system ported
to CHRP or to some other RISC family. If AT wants not to develop the Amiga
any further or thinks Amigas as a low-end computer family then all AT
has to do is saying so to us. We need some clear facts now to decide
what we want to do with our future.
Thanks for the attention.
Cheerio
Stefano
+-----------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
| Stefano Agostinelli | Now developing for You ARM: |
| Genoa - Italy | the State of Art AmigaRoleMaster System |
+-----------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
| IRC: arm | 'Where are you going, Master?' |
| E-mail: ago...@pn.itnet.it | 'To the Havens, Sam' |
+-----------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
Thomas Tavoly
In article <peter...@combo.adsp.sub.org> pet...@combo.adsp.sub.org (Dr. Peter Kittel) writes:
>
> [..] Shops are permanently outsold
> here, I hear. But no, we couldn't yet do polls which parts of the
> population did buy them.
How about enclosing a simple interview card with a couple of questions like
age, country, city, what the machine is going to be/is used for, what the user
would like to see in the future? Shouldn't be much trouble.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas Tavoly + A4000 = tta...@amiga.ow.nl | tta...@cistron.nl _
-I'm in therapy for Chronic Windows Defenestration Syndrome.._ //
---------------------------------------------- [.sig v3.1pl9] -\X/-
Ken Powell
>In article <DGquL...@exeter.ac.uk>, k...@msor.ex.ac.uk (Ken Powell) writes:
>|> Why include an 030 though? Unless AT spend loads more on the CPU then at present
>|> then you'll get no gain (it would have to be a 16MHz 030EC - if they make them).
>|> You'd get more performance out of a 28MHz 020.
>
>A 16MHz 030EC will be very nice, if it comes socketed, with a clock in
>a socket, too. Then you'll be able to upgrade up to a 50MHz 030 by just
>replacing the CPU and clock, not needing any special and expensive card.
>
moving away from that for their bottom of the range (ie cheap) machine - can
you.
And software is mostly aimed at base machines (obviously games and other consumer
stuff rather than pro stuff) and a base machine with a 16MhZ EC30 wouldn't be a
better target than a 14Mhz 020 and a worse target than a 28Mhz 020. It's the
same problem selling Amigas without HDs as the base - compaines won't release
(in general) games that need a HD as officially no base Amigas have sold with them.
Ken
--
Ken Powell - University of Exeter - Dept. of MSOR - k...@msor.ex.ac.uk
Mail me for a copy of the comp.sys.amiga.games FAQ
Teddy Wang
says...
>Because not only do we not have compatible import/export of MS
>Word/WordPerfect/AmiPro/Excel (or at least RTF), we don't have a decently
>usable WWW/Internet package.
Honestly Dave, if you really want to run Word/WordPerfect/AmiPro/Excel,
you ARE better off dumping the Amiga and going for a nice Pentium. People
are drawn to the Amiga for other reasons. The lack of monopolistic
corporation software on the Amiga will not be addressed unless Amiga has
a PRESENCE in the US where most of these corps are. MS, Novell, IBM (I
think that covers most of the industries monopolies) are in this game
to make money, and currently they WILL loose money on the Amiga if they
tried to develop for it... Look at WordPerfect...
Although I agree that the Amiga is a really nice OS will some very
innovative ideas built into the GUI, unless it sells, it'll never garner
support of the BIG ones...
Teddy Wang
TI1 Matthias Rueá
>From: he...@hv.se (Henrik Wetterstrom)
>Subject: Re: ** ESCOM CAUGHT IN ANOTHER LIE **
>Date: 26 Oct 1995 22:05:10 GMT
>In article <46e0il$e...@shum.cc.huji.ac.il>, te...@bagel.cs.huji.ac.il (Eyal Teler) writes:
>:In article <DGquL...@exeter.ac.uk>, k...@msor.ex.ac.uk (Ken Powell) writes:
>:|> Why include an 030 though? Unless AT spend loads more on the CPU then at present
>:|> then you'll get no gain (it would have to be a 16MHz 030EC - if they make them).
>:|> You'd get more performance out of a 28MHz 020.
>:
>:A 16MHz 030EC will be very nice, if it comes socketed, with a clock in
>:a socket, too. Then you'll be able to upgrade up to a 50MHz 030 by just
>:replacing the CPU and clock, not needing any special and expensive card.
>..or sueeze a A4000/030 into a A1200 box and name it A1300. Keep as
>much A4000 stuff as possible in the A13000, such as SIM sockets,
>have sockets for CPU and FPU as well as their crystals.
>Forget everything about 68060 and build a brand new high performance
>Amiga built on new micro processors with a future, such as PowerPC.
>We need a high performance machine, otherwise will video production
>market abandon the Amiga in a few years, and with that is there no
>market for A4000 either and we are left with just A1200 which is too
>slow for being compared to playstations. Which will for sure place
>the Amiga in the grave beside the C64. R.I.P. "We will always love you,
>and we will never forget you..."
>/Henrik
Power-PC-Amiga...yes, that is my opinion as well, but dont forget:
AT WILL release a A1300 in Spring 1996 and this modell will (probably) run
with a 68(ec)030 CPU (and you have the ability to put FAST-RAM in your
machine without buying any boards) and the release IS a good thing...:
What I want to say is, that the time for RISC-Amigas has not come yet, just
think about the users who have bought expensive Turbo-Boards and so on...
Should they sell their machines for nothing, because everyone wants an RISC
Amiga then ???
What I think is, that the Amiga-market should first be re-activated with
products like A1300 (68030,42MHz (I hope...), hopefully CD-ROM, for a low
price) so that the big software-producers (I think about Psygnosis,Blue Byte,
Lucas Arts, Sierra, SSI...) again begin to support the Amiga very well, and
show the world what fantastic things can be done with this (MultiMedia)-
computer ,and THEN, maybe in Spring 97, it is time for a new incredible,
powerful, unbelievable, PC-User-Shocking AMIGA !!!
Long live the Amiga....
Matthias Ruess...: A1200,68030 50MHz,4MB FAST,1GB HD,CD-ROM(2x)
E-Mail: mru...@hugo.rz.fh-ulm.de
Ronn F. Black
>In article <46ndk9$o...@nntp5.u.washington.edu>, dja...@u.washington.edu
>says...
>
>>Because not only do we not have compatible import/export of MS
>>Word/WordPerfect/AmiPro/Excel (or at least RTF), we don't have a decently
>>usable WWW/Internet package.
>
>Honestly Dave, if you really want to run Word/WordPerfect/AmiPro/Excel,
>you ARE better off dumping the Amiga and going for a nice Pentium. People
Its not an issue of running those packages. Its an issue of seamless
integration. That requires supporting standards. Since the industry lacks
a true common standard (i.e. opendoc, or Acrobat) that is widely supported
we are forced to support the largest installed base. That forces us to
support Word, and WordPerfect (Or as I like to call them MS Nerd and Nerd
Perfect B^} )
>are drawn to the Amiga for other reasons. The lack of monopolistic
>corporation software on the Amiga will not be addressed unless Amiga has
>a PRESENCE in the US where most of these corps are. MS, Novell, IBM (I
>think that covers most of the industries monopolies) are in this game
>to make money, and currently they WILL loose money on the Amiga if they
>tried to develop for it... Look at WordPerfect...
This is has been proven by WordPerfect. Maybe they won't lose money but
they wont make the profits they want to see.
However, that doesn't mean that the existing Amiga Vendors should not
support document interchange with the *Big Name* packages on the
competing platforms. I don't see that they have a choice. The Amiga
can't operate in a vacume any longer.
Ronn Black
--
============== Ronn F. Black --> ro...@btsoft.cmhnet.org ======================
MS-WINDOWS - It's amazing how many warts are under all that pretty make-up.
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that
leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and
narrow is the road that leads to life and only a few find it. MATT 7:13-14
Rick Cousin
: As long as Dr. Kittel is reading this...
: So I hope you are going to do more than just "Look for a `professional
: partner'" in the USA. If you won't be one yourself, then you don't
: deserve anyone wasting there money on an orphan system in this country.
: That means you ought to support people like Softwood over here toward
: funding the programming and licensing for cross-platform compatiblility.
: you ought to be funding the programming and licensing of "Internet in a
: box" for the Amiga, with ready-to-use programs and phone-numbers to dial
: in to, as well as Dial-In sript writers, suggestions etc.
Hear, hear!!!! I don't neccesarily think we need pre-programed phone
numbers, but the Internet in a box is a DEFINATE must! There is NO reason
an Internet package has to be such a nightmare to set up and use as
Amosaic. Seems to me that Softwood has a nice format with Final WRiter. I
could see a Softwood Internet package that looks like Final Writer.
: These are all projects that shareware/PD authors are working on. But
: they, or some company, needs the concerted resources of a corporation
: behind them to make these things possible. In return, you would have a
: viable computer to market here for more than Video Toasting (which I am
: not interested in at all, BTW)
I have a feeling that there are MANY Amiga users here in the U.S. that
have NO interest whatsoever in video production. We love the Amiga
because it is easy to use, customize and realatively inexpensive.
: As for money to do this - you said it yourself - you can't keep up with
: sales demands anyway.
: So the challenge: You want a professional partner in the USA to sell Amigas?
: Then be a professional partners in making a viable
: Amiga SYSTEM to sell!
Don't make the same mistake Commodore made; giving up on the U.S. market
without even trying to make an impact. They decided that the U.S. market
was gone to the IBM compatible and made the wonderful decision to
abandon their own country and concentrate sales in Europe.
Rick Cousin
fm...@dorsai.org
Ronn F. Black
>Forget everything about 68060 and build a brand new high performance
>Amiga built on new micro processors with a future, such as PowerPC.
>We need a high performance machine, otherwise will video production
>market abandon the Amiga in a few years, and with that is there no
>market for A4000 either and we are left with just A1200 which is too
>slow for being compared to playstations. Which will for sure place
>the Amiga in the grave beside the C64. R.I.P. "We will always love you,
>and we will never forget you..."
If you have been following any of the announcements you know that '060
is only a temporary measure until the OS can be reworked for RISK processors.
The target processor has not been chosen yet to my knowlege but rumour has
it that PowerPC is a strong contendor.
Ronn Black
David Jarvis
>In article <46ndk9$o...@nntp5.u.washington.edu>, dja...@u.washington.edu
>says...
>
>>Because not only do we not have compatible import/export of MS
>>Word/WordPerfect/AmiPro/Excel (or at least RTF), we don't have a decently
>>usable WWW/Internet package.
>
>Honestly Dave, if you really want to run Word/WordPerfect/AmiPro/Excel,
>you ARE better off dumping the Amiga and going for a nice Pentium. People
I do NOT want to run the above programs. But when I am working with
other people who use Macs and Amigas, I am the only one who can't import or
export the work done on the other platforms without them saving it as
text first. Amiga Tech could help Amiga software developers make THAT
process easier, especially if licensing fees are needed.
Personally, I would much rather be at home with my wife working on a
project on my Amiga than be at school using a Mac or IBM, just because of
the format problems. Same goes for internet reference database accessing.
>are drawn to the Amiga for other reasons. The lack of monopolistic
>corporation software on the Amiga will not be addressed unless Amiga has
>a PRESENCE in the US where most of these corps are. MS, Novell, IBM (I
>think that covers most of the industries monopolies) are in this game
>to make money, and currently they WILL loose money on the Amiga if they
>tried to develop for it... Look at WordPerfect...
>
>Although I agree that the Amiga is a really nice OS will some very
>innovative ideas built into the GUI, unless it sells, it'll never garner
>support of the BIG ones...
>
That is my point. AT has to make it an attractive package to sell.
Without the kind of software/hardware included in other computer bundles,
it won't be selling except to hobbyist and video markets, neither of
which would attract a "professional partner" other than the existing
mail-order small-retailers already in the Amiga market.
(By hardware/software I mean CDRom and fax/modem, and of course a decent
hard-drive.).
David Jarvis
>Teddy Wang
Byron Montgomerie
: In article <46cg92$m...@osfa.aber.ac.uk> me...@aber.ac.uk (MARC EDWARD FORRESTER) writes:
: >Dr. Peter Kittel <pet...@combo.ganesha.com> wrote:
: >
: >Okay.. So.. Why was the maximum spec 2M and a 170M drive?
: >It just seems a bit, you know.. Crap.
: That's your miserable opinion. Buyers seem to think different, they
I like that phrasing. ;)
: rush for the machines.
Right now they do sure, how much longer though?
Regards,
BM
MARC EDWARD FORRESTER
>>Okay.. So.. Why was the maximum spec 2M and a 170M drive?
>>It just seems a bit, you know.. Crap.
>
>That's your miserable opinion.
I see. You from PR, are you?
Perfectly reasonable opinion. That's precisely the sort of machine
people are falling over themselves to -sell- in Micro Mart for #300.
>Buyers seem to think different, they rush for the machines.
Well, I've no idea what sort of initial sales rush would be reasonable
to expect. Do they have anywhere else to get them?
>>Oh yes, and is there any truth in the overheard that AT may be
>>producing an IBM version of workbench?
>
>Oops, what? Ah, you mean a port of AmigaOS to such machines.
>You're citing my wet dreams, but it's currently just dreams...
I suppose it wouldn't really sell.
Damn nice idea, though.
Remco Weg
> : Who is going to distribute the Amiga in Canada?
Maybe this will help:
: PRESS RELEASE
:
: FOR RELEASE 9AM EDT, OCTOBER 24, 1995
:
: Contacts:
: Amiga Technologies GmbH the Service Management Group, inc.
: Gilles Bourdin Rick Stine
: Berliner Ring 89 10400 Little Patuxent Parkway, Suite 440
: D-64625 Bensheim, Germany Columbia, MD USA 21044
: Tel +49 (6252) 709-195 Tel +1 (410) 715-6850
: Fax +49 (6252) 709-520 Fax +1 (410) 715-6859
:
:
: New Amiga Distributor / Service Provider for North America
:
: Amiga Technologies GmbH Selects the Service Management Group
It doesn't say in this little piece a was able to grab. But it also
includes........ tada.... CANADA...
Re/\/\co
E-Mail: remc...@abbs.xs4all.nl
Iain Bennett
Compton) wrote:
> : The fact that Commodore Canada was still around when ESCOM purchased the
> : assets, says something.
Which is true...
> Well, "Doug MacGregor in an office" isn't quite Commodore Canada. Yes,
> it's still around, but barely. And actually, since Commodore Canada was
> a subsidiary of another Commodore branch in liquidation, it couldn't have
> lasted forever, unless someone bought it out.
Don't forget that Commodore Canada (where Commodore originally came
from... remember that folks) was still selling computers when Escom took
over.
>: Who is going to distribute the Amiga in Canada?
>
> Presumably SMG and/or Software Hut, unless a Canadian company secures a
> distribution deal either through those two or directly through Amiga
> Technologies.
That will probably end up being Wonder Computers in Ottawa with locations
in Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal. Otherwise, Amiga Technologies USA is
in control of the American and Canadian scene.
Kolbjorn Barmen
: I see you haven't taken a very close look at the internet support
: provided by Win95/MacTCP/OS2.
:
: Clearly OS2 and/or IBM provide the best packages of all of them.
: Win95 is clearly aimed at the individual for internet support, a person
: at home wanting to surf the net. It is cleary not intended for internet
: style networking in a TCP/IP environment, but rather TCP/IP support for
: the ever popular Lan software whether it be MicroSofts or IBM's
: particular flavour. If you want to connect to a ialup provider Win95
: will assume a lot and the internet lizard will do it for you. To get some
: internet applications beyond the Win95 ftp, telnet, route and ping client
: commands, you still have the same problem, you'll have to buy commercial
: product or put up with the crashes that result from the
: PD/Shareware/SoonToBe Comm stuff. Then you get to deal with which
: winsock.dll you use as many of the 3rd party items both PD and
: Commercial suggest something other than MS winsock.dll. It always looks
: greener on the other side until you finally get there and the sun goes down.
: But there is no doubt that if you want to go surfing, then just about
: any other system that has a VGA card is the way to go. If you want to do
: Enterprise networking ala TCP/IP then you'll have to plan on spending
: some money.
Hello !!!! Are we missing something here or what ?!?!
There are such things as free unixes, eg. linux and netbsd/freebsd.
They are free, at least I havent spent any money on it, they may be
rough setting up, but not _that_ rough. You get alot of help from
news, mailinglists, mail, web, etc anyways.. after all I had a computer
only since jan '94 and _I_ manage to pull off netbsd
(and linux for that matter). The only money you spend, is on hardware,
which you will gain from anyway, also in eg. amigados.
bye....
--
Kolbjorn Barmen /// e-mail: ko...@nvg.unit.no irc: kolla
Brendeholten 45 /// A1200, 030MMU/882@50MHz, 18MB RAM, 1.8GB HD
N-6800 FORDE \\\/// AmigaOS, MacOS, MS-DOS, NetBSD, Linux/68k
NORWAY \/// www: http://www.nvg.unit.no/~kolla
Mikko Johannes Koivunalho
: As long as Dr. Kittel is reading this...
: I was just about ready to trade my A1200 w/204M hard disk, memory, HD
: floppy, etc. blah blah in on a new Pentium with Windows '95. Why you
: ask? (I hope)
: Because not only do we not have compatible import/export of MS
: Word/WordPerfect/AmiPro/Excel (or at least RTF), we don't have a decently
: usable WWW/Internet package. I have been spending the better part of the
There is a word processor called Protext from Arnor which has a converter
which includes converting into Rich Text Format. I haven't tried it
because, thank God, I haven't had any need for it, but it should work.
: last week screwing with AmiTCP, Mlink, and AMosaic, trying to get some
: combination of the above to do something. There are extremely valuable
: reference tools out there on Web pages, eaven easier to use than with
: archie. But I can't use them! Fortuneately, another amiga user at my
: university has been helping me out via email, otherwise I would just give
: up and trade this Amiga in for whatever I could get toward a computer
: system where the OS developer actively supports the trends in the uses of
: the market.
: So I hope you are going to do more than just "Look for a `professional
: partner'" in the USA. If you won't be one yourself, then you don't
: deserve anyone wasting there money on an orphan system in this country.
: That means you ought to support people like Softwood over here toward
: funding the programming and licensing for cross-platform compatiblility.
: you ought to be funding the programming and licensing of "Internet in a
: box" for the Amiga, with ready-to-use programs and phone-numbers to dial
: in to, as well as Dial-In sript writers, suggestions etc.
: These are all projects that shareware/PD authors are working on. But
: they, or some company, needs the concerted resources of a corporation
: behind them to make these things possible. In return, you would have a
: viable computer to market here for more than Video Toasting (which I am
: not interested in at all, BTW)
: As for money to do this - you said it yourself - you can't keep up with
: sales demands anyway.
: The Amiga is a brilliant platform; I can do more with the programs I
: have in 6 megs of memory than a Pentium platform can in 16 megs. But
: without the basics in professional software, the time it takes to get
: things to work (shareware, etc.) and the compromises I have to make when
: working with other people, will dictate I switch to a Windows 95 machine.
: So the challenge: You want a professional partner in the USA to sell Amigas?
: Then be a professional partners in making a viable
: Amiga SYSTEM to sell!
: David Jarvis
: 2nd Yr medical student
: (I used to love the Amiga system, compared to all the rest. Lately I just
: use it due to lack of money and time to convert my files over. Maybe
: someday I'll enjoy working on it again... maybe)
: --
: ****!! Aaaghh! I'm lost in here and I can't get out !!****
--
Mikko Koivunalho A dedicated Amiga user!
Turku, Finland A2000B, KS2.0
Turun yliopisto/Åbo universitet/University of Turku
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Martin T
> In <453gae$j...@acme.freenet.columbus.oh.us>, sjko...@freenet.columbus.oh.us (Scott Konowal) writes:
> >If the GIANT PC's have such a foothold in the industry, then why
> >are Mac's still so popular?
> Apple has been losing market share for some time. From a peak of
> somewhere around 12%, they're now at about 8.5-9% (based on various
> industry sources). Apple's done as well as it has for one reason: good
> marketing. That's the same good marketing that gave you $1500 Apple
> IIs that weren't significantly faster, better, or more capable than
> $250.00 C64 systems.
It depends on what you want to do. For audio and sprites in games a C64 would trump the Apple II, but if you want to have a good disk system to develop software and do actual work, an Apple II with DOS 3.3 or ProDOS would clearly be the better option.
> >: Hey, why bring common horse sense here?
> Marketing preys on emotions, it's relatively independent of good
> sense. If good sense were the dominating factor in most personal
> computer selections, the Amiga would have been very strong from its
> introduction.
Yet again it depends.
Amiga 1000 was a fantastic machine at the time. I found it's capablitiles really amazing in 1985-86! But I personlly could not afford it. It was way too expensive for me. I had to do with cheap clones of Apple II+ and IBM PC clones.
Another thing I would have missed is the support for large hard drives and other hardware. The same goes for software. While the Amiga had really good support for games, and some great niches like video editing, it lacked a large art of the professional eco system that Apple and IBM had.
br,
martin